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Talk:Anti-Defamation League/archive1

Origin of the ADL

The ADL originally formed in response to the lynching of Leo Frank in Georgia on a trumped up murder charge of killing Mary Phagan. Ironically, the Frank case, which eventually led to the establishment of the Anti-Defamation League, also resulted in the revival of the Ku Klux Klan, then known as "the Knights of Mary Phagan".

This contradicts the official history of the ADL (link on article), which has the lynching happening in 1915 and the ADL forming in 1913. Does anyone have a source that contradicts the official history? Martin

This passage was added by , whose last edit was at the end of January, so I don't really see a way of verifying these claims. --snoyes 19:37 Feb 24, 2003 (UTC)

Claims of bias

This a deeply biased pro Anti Defamation League article. FearÉÍREANN 21:40 17 May 2003 (UTC)

Well, it is biased. The unconscious assumption of those that have contributed to it is that it is desirable and good to fight against anti-Semitism, against racism, against Jew-hatred, against Muslim-hatred, etc. What is the specific problem? The discussion of the ADL files, journalism and the court case? The overly brief discussion regarding the African National Congress? (I remember watching Nelson Madela on television state that he fully supported the PLO because they supported him.) What are the specific points you would like to see addressed? RK

You might be considered a partial observer, RK - your comments above appear to imply that you're a member of said organisation... :)

Say, is it true that you can only be a full member of the ADL if you're a Jewish male? Martin

No, I am not a member of the ADL. I am wondering, however how you could have heard such an odd version of ADL membership rules! It is not the ADL, but rather Louis Farrakhan's anti-white, anti-Semitic, anti-woman Nation of Islam that only allows male black Muslims to join as full members, and attend all meetings. Black Muslim females only have partial rights in this group; non-blacks are forbidden from joining at all. How can this fact about the Nation of Islam (which has been widely reported in the press and acknowledge by NOI members themselves) have been misinterpreted as the requirements of ADL membership? BTW, The ADL has Christian and Jewish, male and female, members. The fight against hatespeech is something that the ADL wants all people to join. They are the exact opposite of extremist hatespeech groups like the Naziz, the NOI, the Christian Identity Movement, etc. RK

You stated above "Many people in the ADL engage in all of these activities. I myself have participated..." - I thought you were using yourself as an example of a member of the ADL. Obviously not - my mistake :)

The rumour I heard was that one could only be a full member if one fulfilled additional criteria. Never mind - I'll go research and see if I can dig up anything, and add something to the article either way. Martin 22:38 17 May 2003 (UTC)

ADL is not a pro-Israel political activist group

The article claims "With the decline of overt anti-Semitism in the U.S., the ADL has increasingly focused on pro-Israel activism." Really? Could someone provide a source? Because the great majority of what the ADL deals with has little or nothing to do with political support of the State of Israel. This claim seems like the paranoid claims seen on many Islamist and anti-Semitic websites, which promote the idea that Jews use the ADL to unduly influence the US government. RK

Did the person who added this section ever actually read ADL bulletins and press releases, and go to meeting with ADL representatives? In actuality, they deal with all of the following subjects: Anti-Semitism, Black-Jewish Relations, Christian-Jewish Relations, Civil Rights Discrimination, Racism, Bigotry, Extremism, Hate Crimes, Nazis, Holocaust Denial ,Internet, Islamic Extremist groups, Israel and the Middle-East, Militias, Nation of Islam, Neo-Nazi and Skinhead groups, Religious Freedom, Church-State issues, Supreme Court issues, Terrorism, the United Nations and Vatican-Jewish Relations. In point of fact, support of the State of Israel is just one small part of what they deal with. RK 22:38, Oct 21, 2003 (UTC)

I have removed the following questionable content from the article:

With the decline of overt anti-Semitism in the U.S., the ADL has increasingly focused on pro-Israel activism. In the view of many people this strategy means that the ADL has moved away from its original purpose as a defender of human dignity to become an overtly partisan political lobbying organisation.'

This content states dubious premises as though they were facts, then draws a very controversial conclusion based on those dubious premises. Even if this content were attributed to a noteworthy individual or organization, it would have no place in the introductory paragraph of an article about the ADL. The only exception would be if this questionable content could be attributed to the ADL itself. Even then, it would have to be qualified as the ADL's self-reflective POV. -- NetEsq 16:47, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC)

... ok, both of those comments are good, NetEsq. I added a simple statement that the ADL also offers political support to Israel, which should be uncontroversial? Martin 21:15, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Uncontroversial, perhaps, but also redundant. The previous sentence sets forth the ADL's opposition to "anti-Zionism," which I would presume to mean that the ADL supports Zionism, a political stance which I would presume to be identical with providing political support to Israel. Can you think of any other way that someone might interpret the ADL's pro-Zionist political stance? -- NetEsq 21:47, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Well, see . The third point is Zionist: "Israel has a right to exist". But the other points: "Israel has demonstrated its sincere desire for peace" and "There is no excuse for Palestinian terrorism" - One can believe (or not) in those statements independantly of one's belief in the "right to exist". The ADL's support for Israel goes beyond its opposition to anti-Zionism.

Zionism and anti-Zionism

Additionally, supporting Zionism is a rather stronger thing than merely opposing anti-Zionism. Similarly, one can oppose anti-communism without supporting communism. Finally, "Zionism" and "anti-Zionism" are frequently misunderstood terms, and jargony. All in all, I don't think many people would make the leap from opposing anti-Zionism to, say, this letter. Martin 19:47, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)

<< The ADL's support for Israel goes beyond its opposition to anti-Zionism. >>

That is a matter of opinion. As far as I can tell, taking a stand in opposition to anti-Zionism is -- for all practical purposes -- synonymous with providing political support for the state of Israel. In other words, can you name any organization that has as its stated purpose opposition to anti-Zionism that does not provide political support for Israel? Ultimately, what you are expressing is disagreement with the way that the ADL carries out its advocacy for the state of Israel, which is all well and good, but such criticism must be labeled as criticism and attributed to a noteworthy spokesperson or organization. -- NetEsq 22:16, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Yes, it is a matter of opinion. Therefore, some readers will feel that "opposes anti-Zionism" is an accurate description of the ADL's activities in this arena. Others will feel that it is not, and for them the additional sentence is worthwhile. I'm mostly in it for the clarity - there is a string of logic from opposing anti-Zionism to supporting Israel, but it passes through a double negative, and I think it's a bit of a mental stretch. --mrd

Leaving in the sentence is not problematic for me, and if it makes the article clearer, so much the better. -- NetEsq 22:16, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)

<< Finally, "Zionism" and "anti-Zionism" are frequently misunderstood terms, and jargony. >>

I wholeheartedly disagree. Zionism is what Zionists do, and anti-Zionism is what anti-Zionists do. Moreover, if people wish to know what Zionism and/or anti-Zionism is, they can follow the hypertext links to the Misplaced Pages articles on those topics. To wit, the article on anti-Zionism clearly states: "Anti-Zionism is the opposition to the existence of the state of Israel as a Jewish 'state,' and the conceptual denial of the right for Jews to have their own state. It is the opposite of Zionism, which is the belief that Jewish people have a right to a nation state in the historical Land of Palestine."

Not that clearly, because there's a neutrality dispute over the thing. Then you get folks like Chomsky - from his article - "He has further defined himself as a Zionist; although, he notes that his definition of Zionism is considered by most to be anti-Zionism these days; the result of what he perceives to have been a shift (since the 1940s) in the meaning of Zionism". Note that the ADL were around prior to that alleged shift. So again, a slight loss of clarity, compared to just saying what they do. --mrd

No doubt there has been a semantic shift in re the use of the terms Zionism and anti-Zionism, just as there has been a shift in re the use of the terms conservative and liberal. These issues can be, should be, and are discussed in the articles on those topics. In the context of the introduction to this article, we need only say that the ADL fights anti-Zionism. -- NetEsq 22:16, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)

<< ne can oppose anti-communism without supporting communism. >>

Apples and oranges. As a historical comparison, I know of no organization which had as its stated purpose opposition to anti-Maoism that did not provide political support for Chairman Mao's communist regime. If by opposing anti-communism you mean opposing McCarthyism, then your analogy falls apart completely. Virtually all opposition to McCarthyism was based on the premise that people were wrongly accused of being communists. Indeed, to this day, people who seek to become American citizens must disavow any loyalty to the communist party in their citizenship applications. -- NetEsq 21:00, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I'll chalk that up as a failed analogy then. --mrd

So, I've removed the link to anti-Zionism. That fixes the redundancy. In any case, I suspect that it's slightly suspect to state that the ADL was set up to fight anti-Zionism: cf the original charter, the political scene at the time, and the ADL's early actions. Martin 21:56, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)

The link to anti-Zionism was an informative and useful link, whereas the assertion that the ADL provides political support to the state of Israel results in a loss of information, something that the linguist Noam Chomsky would describe as a semantic shift unintentionally created by the elimination of a more broad term in favor of a redundant definition. As for why the ADL was set up, I changed the intro to read "that fights anti-Zionism," leaving the redundant definition regarding political support for Israel in place. -- NetEsq 22:16, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)

What type of organization is the ADL?

"that fights" is better. It also handles the "array of services" clause, which had a similar issue. Good change.

Leaving in the sentence is not problematic for me

Then we seem to be in heated agreement. Sorry for taking up your time on the matter. Martin 22:24, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Take a look at the new section I just added. I think it might address your concerns regarding the vagueness of the term anti-Zionism. -- NetEsq 22:42, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Can we call it a "mainstream advocacy organization"? --Uncle Ed 20:05, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Why? --snoyes 20:08, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Two reasons: Leumi and Viajero. --Uncle Ed 20:23, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Umm, I don't get it. I know they were involved in some edit war about israel & palestine stuff, but not much more. Maybe you can point me in the right direction? --snoyes 20:27, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Sorry for being elusive and vague. I was referring to some edit summary comments they made during an edit war, but I forget on which page! :-( --Uncle Ed 21:35, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

ADL files

There are some comments made on the ADL files on the other place used for edits when the wikipedia was down. What was the other place called again?

The are about the eponymous section in the article added in the edit after this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Anti-Defamation_League&oldid=698780

(Revision as of 20:59, 24 Feb 2003)

Titled Sections for this Talk Page

I may come back here and put sections in later. The authors of the sections (currently separated by horizontal rules, not section titles) may like to do so themselves.

ADL and mobsters

I moved:

The ADL has been accused of a "you-scratch-my-back, I'll-scratch-yours" relationship to certain Jewish-surnamed gangland figures: in return for financial contributions, the ADL would shield mobsters from scrutiny, claiming that said mobsters were being persecuted by Anti-Semites. Eyebrows were raised in 1985, when, at a gala affair in Las Vegas, the ADL's "Torch of Liberty" award was presented by Joan Rivers to the Purple Gang's Moe Dalitz.

That kind of charge (esp. by a first-time anon) is going to require a resposible citation.-- Cecropia | Talk 20:20, 19 May 2004 (UTC) (Done. --Herschelkrustofsky 02:34, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC))

In a comment line while editing the article, Cadr writes "Removing weasel words (Chomsky is not acccused by "many" of anti-Semitism))" Cadr, this is just plain false. Among religious Jews, Chomsky is well known as an anti-Semite. A very large percent of Jews consider him a Jew-hater. You can claim that they are wrong, but you cannot claim that they do not exist! You seem totally unaware of how hateful his writings are to many Jewish people, as well to many non-Jewish Americans. RK 22:38, Jun 13, 2004 (UTC)

Classification of the ADL

I have some misgivings about having the ADL article classified under either "Jewish Society" or "Jewish Organizations." The ADL is a political group, and certainly not all Jews would fully embrace its agenda. --Herschelkrustofsky 14:56, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Um, all Jews would not fully embrave the agenda of any one particular Jewish group! Similarly, all Christians would not fully embrace the agenda of any Christian group! In the real world, such unanimous agreement among millions of people is literally impossible. Many Jews don't even agree on what constitutes the Jewish religion; for example, most Orthodox Jews deny that Conservative Judaism is an authentic form of Judaism! But that is not for a Misplaced Pages article to decide. We can say this: Most American Jews view the ASL, in general, as mainstream; that is not the same as saying that most American Jews would agree with all the details of every one of its positions. The same is true in this regard for all Jewish organizations (and respectively, all Christian organizations, etc.) RK 01:06, Jul 3, 2004 (UTC)

Quigleys

Some mention should be made of the Evergreen Colorado smear job. Names to look for: William & Dorothy Quigley, Mitchell & Candace Aronson. Damages paid March 11 2004 by so-called ADL, $12,169,557.61. 142.177.124.153 23:16, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Removed text

I have removed the following text:

A February 13, 1970 article in the Los Angeles Times concerned the June 30, 1968 murder of a Klanswoman named Cathy Ainsworth. There was a shootout in front of the Meridian, Mississippi home of ADL official Meyer Davidson. This resulted in the death of Ainsworth and the serious wounding of her associate Thomas A. Tarrants III. Alton Wayne Roberts and six other Klansmen had already been convicted for federal civil rights violations in connection with their infamous murder of civil rights workers Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner in Philadelphia, Mississippi in 1964. A police file report dated June 10, 1968 by Detective Luke Scarborough, confirms the Los Angeles Times report of the Ainsworth setup, namely that there was a three-way deal between the ADL, FBI, and local police in the matter, for which the ADL had provided the money.

Ok, I have removed the above paragraph because it is really vague. As far as I can tell, this paragraph accuses the ADL of being a good citizen's group by working with the FBI to bring down part of the KKK. What exactly is considered illegal or unethical here? The text is so badly writte that I can't figure this out. RK 14:27, Aug 11, 2004 (UTC)

ADL reports

I note that the text I wrote on ADL's reports has been removed. ADL's reports are frequently quoted in the some of the press in sentences such as "25% antisemitic attitudes in country XXX". Therefore, press readership may have an interest in understanding what those studies really measure, and whether the results are actually representative of the phenomenon that the ADL claims to measure (that is, antisemitism).

One issue I raised, even akwardly, is that those questions may not actually measure what the ADL claims to be measuring (that is, antisemitism):

• For instance, one justification for positive discrimination is that ethnic or religious groups should be represented in the media, business etc... in roughly equal proportion to their representation in the general population. By the very same reasoning, some people may find the number of Jews (or whatever other religion) working in certain socially favored fields "excessive" if it greatly exceeded their proportion in the population, without being antisemitic per se.
• Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, in effect, is calling for Jews in Europe to renounce their citizenship, and claims that this is their duty as Jews. Any person who believes what Prime Minister Sharon says therefore should deduce logically that Jews are less loyal to their country than to Israel. The only other logical deducation is that Prime Minister Sharon is mistaken or not sincere when he discusses the duties of Jews (a strong possibility, surely).

Whoever told you this was lying to you. Prime Minister Sharon did not make this statement. It sounds like someone exagerrated a real quote, and then presented their exagerration totally out-of-context. He did make a statement to the Jews of France, who are suffering from a tremendous wave of anti-Semitism; he said that since they are in danger there (and they really do appear to be in some danger) that they should emigrate to the State of Israel. He has the right to ask, and the people he asks have the right to make up their own minds. In any case, Ariel Sharon doesn't speak for all Jews, let alone all Israelis! He is just one man. RK 00:03, Oct 3, 2004 (UTC)

I won't enter a long discussion on this. Suffices to say that the ADL publishes study that get media attention, but that, objectively speaking, these studies may not actually measure what they claim to measure, because they count as antisemitic answers that can be given in good faith and without any antisemitism. David.Monniaux 07:55, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"Anti-semitic" is a POV term

Like "anti-American", "anti-Semitic" is an inherently POV term which means very different things to different people (depending on background, political persuasian, etc.) It's a fact that there are a number of groups which the ADL considers anti-Semitic, and it is a fact that the ADL has campaigned against them. The wording in my edit does not in any way imply that the ADL are wrong to consider these groups anti-Semitic, and the reader is free to go to the Misplaced Pages pages on these groups for more information. This page is clearly not the place for a detailed discussion of Nazi/KKK/whoever attitudes towards Jews, still less the place for bald assertions that these groups were anti-Semitic without supporting evidence and without any proper discussion.

Saying that "anti-Semitic" is an inherently POV term is only used by anti-Semites. Watch your attacks carefully. You are clearly pushing anti-Semitic views with your defense of the Nazis and KKK might not be anti-Semitic. That is only pushed by Holocaust-deniers, Christian Idenitity adherents and others who hate Jews. RK 02:45, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)

I am (honestly) quite outraged by your accusations. It seems to be impossible to make any kind of argument against one of your edits without suffering such ridiculous ad-homenim attacks. I am clearly not defending that Nazis or anyone else here, I'm just following the NPOV policy of Misplaced Pages. All of the people/groups on the list are uncontroversially anti-Semitic, but it is a principle of NPOV that opinions (however widely held) should be attributed and not promulgated by Misplaced Pages itself. It is sufficient for the purpose of this article to say that the ADL considers these groups to be anti-Semitic; it's completely unecessary for Misplaced Pages to take a stance on whether or not they actually are.

I'd like to emphasise again that you are making very serious charges against me by saying that I am anti-Semitic, and it is a mark of your immaturity, rudeness and arrogance that you feel able to make these charges without evidence extending beyond your paranoia of persecution and discrimination, and soley as a means to avoid engaging with my argument. Cadr 23:46, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

And yes, of course the Nazis, etc. were anti-Semitic by any sane definition of the word, but a widely-accepted POV is still very much a POV. Cadr 23:16, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Save your apologetics. RK

So if I say that the Nazis were anti-Semites, I'm apologising for them? Bullshit. Cadr 23:46, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In some cases at least even "the ADL considers X to be anti-Semitic" is a doubtful wording as it implies acceptance of good faith on the part of the ADL. Especially when dealing with issues involving Israel, the correct wording is "the ADL alleges X to be anti-Semitic". --Zero 03:22, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Great edit, Zero, seriously. You cut to the heart of the issue. Good work. RK 12:31, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)

I am neutral with regard to considers/alledges. I've used "considers" in my edit, but if "alledges" is preferred I won't object to it being changed. Not sure what RK is getting at here, Zero's suggested wording would be (slightly) less pro-ADL that mine, which apparently verged on anti-Semitism or something. Cadr 23:48, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It was my wording in any case, not Zero's. Jayjg 03:09, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Censorship of critical links on the ADL

Dear SlimVirgin,

Why are you deleting critical links of the ADL by white nationalists groups? Since the ADL focuses a substantial part of its web site criticizing white nationalists, why shouldn't we hear the white nationalists view point on the ADL?

You specifically deleted these links

These links also have critical articles and quotes about the ADL by Jews, not just white nationalists. Your personal biases and emotional attachment to judaism is not allowing for fair and balanced spectrum of view points on the ADL

This is what defines Jewish Supremacism and Jewish Ethnocentrism, whether or not you are a Jew or a "lackey" (for a lack of a better word) and is unfair and biased to allow alternative view points. Allow all view points.

Dnagod 01:19, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages editors are expected to cite their sources, and may only use organizations or publications deemed reputable, authoritative, credible, and relevant. White supremacist websites are none of these regarding an article on the ADL. These websites might be useable as primary-source material on articles about white supremacism, fascism, or neo-Nazis, but they're useless as secondary sources. Speaking of personal biases, are you a member of Stormfront? SlimVirgin 01:35, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)

Your personal bias and emotional attachment to judaism is clear, since you feel it necessary to throw around the nazi card.

http://www.solargeneral.com/ja/adl.htm

is a valid link which has many articles in it written by Jews, if you persist in deleting these links I will bring it forward for arbitration. Just because a web site owner is white does not make the links and material invalid.

stays, and if you wish to delete it, I will bring it forth for arbitration. You are abusing your powers and should have your admin privileges revoked.

Dnagod 14:31, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Um, wasn't it you who kept throwing around the "personal bias and emotional attachment to judaism" card? Jayjg 19:51, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

On the purpose of external links

This controversy seems to be possible because Misplaced Pages doesn't really have a strong policy on the meaning or use of external links -- when they are appropriate, what their role is in the article, and so on.

Misplaced Pages:External links states that they should be high content, with information that is not found in the Misplaced Pages article. This restriction does not apply to sites used as references. Meta, however, answers the question Meta:When should I link externally? with Not very often and goes on to distinguish Misplaced Pages from link-farms, Web directories, and so forth.

The issue of usefulness of an external link is orthogonal to the issue of NPOV. An external link needs to be a reference to something broadly useful and informative on the subject. So if the purpose of referring to the opinions of anti-semites and neo-Nazis here is simply to document their views, then this should be done as an inline citation rather than an external link. Take, for instance, this entirely fictional example:

The gay neo-Nazi organization Aryan Bears of California coined the phrase "green Zionist moose-squirrels" to refer to the ADL, which has since caught on among other gay white-supremacist groups.

One frequently-observed pattern not described in Misplaced Pages:External links is to link to an organization's Web site from the article describing that organization. This is, I suspect, chiefly done because the organization's Web site does a better job than anyone else can do in documenting the organization's own point of view. Thus, Stormfront links to that group's Web site, just as this article links to the ADL.

We need to judge external links based on their informativeness as well as on NPOV. We would not want to link to badly-researched material simply out of a desire to present "all sides of the story". External links are there for the benefit of the reader, not the benefit of the sites or views linked to. It should be noted that an external link is never a replacement for adequate discussion of a relevant subject in Misplaced Pages. Presently, this article does not do a good enough job of describing the history of the ADL and its actions. Linking to other sites on any side of a controversy is no substitute for doing good research and writing factual material here in Misplaced Pages. --FOo 23:52, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Title

The ADL is a Jewish-American org, as demonstrated through it's policy, directives and membership / employment base.

The title "American org" is misleading, and should be removed.

• It's an American organization. Guess what: Jews in America are Jews are Americans, and identify themselves as such. Get used to it. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 02:36, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"Jews work more effectively against us, than the enemy’s armies. They are a hundred times more dangerous to our liberties and the great cause we are engaged in… It is much to be lamented that each state, long ago, has not hunted them down as pests to society and the greatest enemies we have to the happiness of America." ~ George Washington, from Maxims of George Washington