| Revision as of 15:10, 24 April 2021 editRandomCanadian (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers36,695 edits →Suggestion #2 (non political)← Previous edit | Revision as of 15:34, 24 April 2021 edit undoCutePeach (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users1,782 edits →Origin2Tags: use of deprecated (unreliable) source Mobile edit Mobile web editNext edit → | ||
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| ::::::::Taking the full WHO DG comments on the topic: {{tq|The team also visited several laboratories in Wuhan and considered the possibility that the virus entered the human population as a result of a laboratory incident. However, I do not believe that this assessment was extensive enough. Further data and studies will be needed to reach more robust conclusions. Although the team has concluded that a laboratory leak is the least likely hypothesis, this requires further investigation, potentially with additional missions involving specialist experts, which I am ready to deploy.}} Taking it all in context, he's calling for '''''more robust''''' conclusions. This '''should not''' be taken to imply the current conclusion is '''not at all robust''', rather that the goal is to move from a '''less robust''' estimate to a '''more robust''' definitive conclusion. It's inappropriate to selectively quote to change the context, especially when the calls for further studies on the other 3 hypothesis are not referenced. | ::::::::Taking the full WHO DG comments on the topic: {{tq|The team also visited several laboratories in Wuhan and considered the possibility that the virus entered the human population as a result of a laboratory incident. However, I do not believe that this assessment was extensive enough. Further data and studies will be needed to reach more robust conclusions. Although the team has concluded that a laboratory leak is the least likely hypothesis, this requires further investigation, potentially with additional missions involving specialist experts, which I am ready to deploy.}} Taking it all in context, he's calling for '''''more robust''''' conclusions. This '''should not''' be taken to imply the current conclusion is '''not at all robust''', rather that the goal is to move from a '''less robust''' estimate to a '''more robust''' definitive conclusion. It's inappropriate to selectively quote to change the context, especially when the calls for further studies on the other 3 hypothesis are not referenced. | ||
| ::::::::As I said before, I've given my perspective on this topic being ] in this article. Unless you have a specific proposal on what content to add to which section of this article that meets the criteria of {{tq|depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, juxtaposition of statements and use of imagery}} then I stand by my statement above. ] (]) 17:19, 22 April 2021 (UTC) | ::::::::As I said before, I've given my perspective on this topic being ] in this article. Unless you have a specific proposal on what content to add to which section of this article that meets the criteria of {{tq|depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, juxtaposition of statements and use of imagery}} then I stand by my statement above. ] (]) 17:19, 22 April 2021 (UTC) | ||
| ::::::::{{re|Bakkster Man}} I do have faith in you, which is why I repeatedly explained my point of view based on my reading of the primary source and provided affirmatory reports from secondary sources. I sincerely apologise for my remarks on your comprehension abilities and I will again explain my point of view, with one additional caveat for your benefit. | |||
| ::::::::'''Explaining away''' the WHO DG's very pointed remarks on the team’s report that were characterized in numerous RS as ''fault'' and ''criticism'', like in - as well as '''overlooking''' the US multilateral responses to the report as reported in numerous RS, like in - and '''casting aside''' the open letters from independent scientists that were published in the Wall Street Journal , New York Times and Le Monde , to present '''in Wikivoice''' that there is '''scientific consensus''' on COVID-19 origins, would be a '''gross violation''' of ] and ]. It would also violate ], since the WHO team report along with the WHO DG’s remarks are our highest quality MEDRS and should not be '''misquoted''', '''misinterpreted''', or '''misrepresented''' in any way. If you have secondary RS supporting your reading of this primary MEDRS, please put it in your feedback to my suggestions below. | |||
| ::::::::For the caveat: the WHO DG could have made his statements clearer, but the ambiguity can be understood in the context of the "]" he has to put on , with the help of a ]. Nonetheless, a faithful reading of his statement clearly shows that his remarks in relation to the lab leak hypothesis were in fact an addendum to the team’s report, which the Chinese government clearly agrees with me on in the protests they’ve made through their state controlled media , as reported in this RS . These protests are ] for coverage in this article as the WHO DG’s remarks we are discussing here were made in reaction to the alleged ] by the Government of China . The WHO does not exist in a political vacuum, and this report was based on a "Joint Study" with China, which could have been subject to political meddling, or worse, censoring . | |||
| ::::::::What is known '''and''' unknown about the origins of the virus that caused this pandemic are ] for this page and the ] page, like they would be for any other page on other pandemic and viruses, which {{u|Drbogdan}}, {{u|Jtbobwaysf}} and {{u|Ozzie10aaaa}} seem to agree with me on. ] (]) 15:34, 24 April 2021 (UTC) | |||
| *{{ec}} So let's disregard the WHO for a moment. What of all the other MEDRS (and popular press too, despite their false balance) which quite explicitly say that the hypothesis most favoured by scientists is indeed natural spillover. Recent MEDRS: | *{{ec}} So let's disregard the WHO for a moment. What of all the other MEDRS (and popular press too, despite their false balance) which quite explicitly say that the hypothesis most favoured by scientists is indeed natural spillover. Recent MEDRS: | ||
| **{{cite journal |last1=Mishra |first1=Sanjay Kumar |last2=Tripathi |first2=Timir |title=One year update on the COVID-19 pandemic: Where are we now? |journal=] |date=2021 |volume=214 |pages=105778 |doi=10.1016/j.actatropica.2020.105778 |url=https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7695590/ |issn=0001-706X}} | **{{cite journal |last1=Mishra |first1=Sanjay Kumar |last2=Tripathi |first2=Timir |title=One year update on the COVID-19 pandemic: Where are we now? |journal=] |date=2021 |volume=214 |pages=105778 |doi=10.1016/j.actatropica.2020.105778 |url=https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7695590/ |issn=0001-706X}} | ||
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The virus is typically spread during close contact and via respiratory droplets produced when people cough or sneeze. Respiratory droplets may be produced during breathing but the virus is not considered airborne. It may also spread when one touches a contaminated surface and then their face. It is most contagious when people are symptomatic, although spread may be possible before symptoms appear.(RfC March 2020) 02. Superseded by #7 The infobox should feature a per capita count map most prominently, and a total count by country map secondarily. (RfC March 2020) 03. Obsolete The article should not use
{{Current}} at the top. (March 2020)
04. Do not include a sentence in the lead section noting comparisons to World War II. (March 2020)
05. CancelledInclude subsections covering the domestic responses of Italy, China, Iran, the United States, and South Korea. Do not include individual subsections for France, Germany, the Netherlands, Australia and Japan. (RfC March 2020) Include a short subsection on Sweden focusing on the policy controversy. (May 2020)
Subsequently overturned by editing and recognized as obsolete. (July 2024) 06. Obsolete There is a 30 day moratorium on move requests until 26 April 2020. (March 2020)07. There is no consensus that the infobox should feature a confirmed cases count map most prominently, and a deaths count map secondarily. (May 2020)
08. Superseded by #16 The clause on xenophobia in the lead section should read...and there have been incidents of xenophobia and discrimination against Chinese people and against those perceived as being Chinese or as being from areas with high infection rates.(RfC April 2020) 09. Cancelled
Supersedes #1. The first several sentences of the lead section's second paragraph should state The virus is mainly spread during close contact and by small droplets produced when those infected cough, sneeze or talk. These droplets may also be produced during breathing; however, they rapidly fall to the ground or surfaces and are not generally spread through the air over large distances. People may also become infected by touching a contaminated surface and then their face. The virus can survive on surfaces for up to 72 hours. Coronavirus is most contagious during the first three days after onset of symptoms, although spread may be possible before symptoms appear and in later stages of the disease.
(April 2020)
Notes
- Close contact is defined as 1 metres (3 feet) by the WHO and 2 metres (6 feet) by the CDC.
- An uncovered cough can travel up to 8.2 metres (27 feet).
010. The article title is COVID-19 pandemic. The title of related pages should follow this scheme as well. (RM April 2020, RM August 2020)
011. The lead section should use Wuhan, China
to describe the virus's origin, without mentioning Hubei or otherwise further describing Wuhan. (April 2020)
first identifiedand
December 2019. (May 2020) 013. Superseded by #15 File:President Donald Trump suggests measures to treat COVID-19 during Coronavirus Task Force press briefing.webm should be used as the visual element of the misinformation section, with the caption
U.S. president Donald Trump suggested at a press briefing on 23 April that disinfectant injections or exposure to ultraviolet light might help treat COVID-19. There is no evidence that either could be a viable method. (1:05 min)(May 2020, June 2020) 014. Overturned Do not mention the theory that the virus was accidentally leaked from a laboratory in the article. (RfC May 2020) This result was overturned at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard, as there is consensus that there is no consensus to include or exclude the lab leak theory. (RfC May 2024)
015. Supersedes #13. File:President Donald Trump suggests measures to treat COVID-19 during Coronavirus Task Force press briefing.webm should not be used as the visual element of the misinformation section. (RfC November 2020)
016. Supersedes #8. Incidents of xenophobia and discrimination are considered WP:UNDUE for a full sentence in the lead. (RfC January 2021)
017. Only include one photograph in the infobox. There is no clear consensus that File:COVID-19 Nurse (cropped).jpg should be that one photograph. (May 2021)
018. Superseded by #19 The first sentence is.jpg){kind=link}
The COVID-19 pandemic, also known as the coronavirus pandemic, is a global pandemic of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2).(August 2021, RfC October 2023)
019. Supersedes #12 and #18. The first sentence is The global COVID-19 pandemic (also known as the coronavirus pandemic), caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), began with an outbreak in Wuhan, China, in December 2019.
(June 2024)
Origin2
We have discussed China origin before, and this news is getting more coverage in Slate. We have discussed this before here Talk:COVID-19_pandemic/Archive_42#Origin_of_virus and now this is probably WP:DUE. MEDRS as I have noted before is not a valid reason to exclude. Maybe someone here could propose one sentence? I am sure we wont get consensus here, as we can come to a sentence (those that want to include) and then we run an RFC and see if the MEDRS excuse holds or not. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 16:33, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
- Already covered with a dedicated sub-section at COVID-19_pandemic#Misinformation. We can mention the popular press and political theories there. They should not be presented as a "both sides" (WP:FALSEBALANCE) option to the scientific consensus, though. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 16:46, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
- This article in Slate doesn't really change the analysis of WP:DUE, IMO. Particularly since Dr. Chan seems to be suggesting it be considered and investigated (which the WHO did in their latest joint report, and this interview doesn't even address let alone cast doubts upon). I'd suggest the 'popular press reports of fringe science doesn't need MEDRS' idea is an attempted end-run, looking to apply a scientific veneer of credibility to a conspiracy. It's either a WP:FRINGE alternative scientific hypothesis in which case we should rely on secondary sources (latest WHO report), or it's a conspiracy theory in which case it goes in COVID-19 misinformation. Bakkster Man (talk) 17:05, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
- The current COVID-19_pandemic#Misinformation section provides an excessive summarization and fails to include any of the DUE conspiracy theories on this article. One or two sentences would be sufficient. Saying 'there are various false information and conspiracy theories' is excessive summarization. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 17:23, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- IMO, there is no such thing as a "due conspiracy theory". At least, not for the primary article versus one specifically covering conspiracy theories (see the single short paragraph in Moon landing#Historical empirical evidence vs Moon landing conspiracy theories). But perhaps you should be more clear, what do you want included in the article? Outright conspiracy theory, or non-mainstream science? Where do you categorize the article above on the range of WP:FRINGE/PS? Bakkster Man (talk) 17:36, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- Of course there are due conspiracy theories and we have entire pages dedicated to them, as as you pointed out. WP:FRINGE/PS as you mention points out "Alternative theoretical formulations" in which those skilled in the art have different opinions. The former director of the CDC is obviously in that 'skilled in the art' category (borrowing an IP term). Just because the status quo doesn't accept that opinion doesn't 'deem' them scientific (of course they would deem them unscientific if they disagree). Obviously, with attribution, the opinion of the very definition of a category expert (even if the opinion differs from the mainstream) is due a sentence. Specifically, a sentence that summarizes the other sub-article, such as 'various people including xyz and abc have alleged the virus escaped from a lab in china, although these opinions are disputed by the mainstream.' (insert notable people's name, obviously, the person making the statement would need a wikilink itself, or their opinion would be undue in my opinion to begin with, but just because they have a wikilink it doesnt make it due. but expert + notable = due) Jtbobwaysf (talk) 13:11, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
- Except the lab leak has failed to gain any significant traction amongst scientists. The odd one here and there (notice how the CDC director is also a political appointee...); but it's IMHO much closer to the "Questionable science" bit (nothing but anecdotal/circumstantial evidence) than to the "serious theory which is only supported by a minority" end of the scale. It being an "alternative theoretical formulation" would require it be reported as a serious possibility in multiple MEDRS (which would demonstrate it is a possibility actually entertained by scientists) - yet these, if they mention it at all (most don't), say things like "extremely unlikely". As to the mention in the article, that's already there, innit?
"Without evidence, some people have claimed the virus is a bioweapon accidentally or purposefully leaked from a laboratory,"
RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 13:25, 16 April 2021 (UTC)- @RandomCanadian: One quibble, the "SARS-CoV-2 could have been collected from bats then accidentally leaked from the lab which collected it" hypothesis is distinct from the "it's a bioweapon" conspiracy theory, and the WHO report including the hypothesis as one of the 4 being investigated very much makes it an "alternative theoretical formulation". It's just one that's unlikely enough (according to the same MEDRS source which concludes it's an alternative worthy of consideration) not to be worth mentioning on this page, just like how the standard model article doesn't reference string theory. Bakkster Man (talk) 13:50, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Jtbobwaysf: And this is covered in Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2#Reservoir and zoonotic origin, which is transcluded on Investigations into the origin of COVID-19. Feel free to add Dr. Chan as a notable supporter over there, but you've not made the argument (beyond an interview in Slate being 'more coverage') that it's DUE here on this article. Just like with the moon landing page, no need for the details here. Bakkster Man (talk) 13:41, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
- Except the lab leak has failed to gain any significant traction amongst scientists. The odd one here and there (notice how the CDC director is also a political appointee...); but it's IMHO much closer to the "Questionable science" bit (nothing but anecdotal/circumstantial evidence) than to the "serious theory which is only supported by a minority" end of the scale. It being an "alternative theoretical formulation" would require it be reported as a serious possibility in multiple MEDRS (which would demonstrate it is a possibility actually entertained by scientists) - yet these, if they mention it at all (most don't), say things like "extremely unlikely". As to the mention in the article, that's already there, innit?
- Of course there are due conspiracy theories and we have entire pages dedicated to them, as as you pointed out. WP:FRINGE/PS as you mention points out "Alternative theoretical formulations" in which those skilled in the art have different opinions. The former director of the CDC is obviously in that 'skilled in the art' category (borrowing an IP term). Just because the status quo doesn't accept that opinion doesn't 'deem' them scientific (of course they would deem them unscientific if they disagree). Obviously, with attribution, the opinion of the very definition of a category expert (even if the opinion differs from the mainstream) is due a sentence. Specifically, a sentence that summarizes the other sub-article, such as 'various people including xyz and abc have alleged the virus escaped from a lab in china, although these opinions are disputed by the mainstream.' (insert notable people's name, obviously, the person making the statement would need a wikilink itself, or their opinion would be undue in my opinion to begin with, but just because they have a wikilink it doesnt make it due. but expert + notable = due) Jtbobwaysf (talk) 13:11, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
- IMO, there is no such thing as a "due conspiracy theory". At least, not for the primary article versus one specifically covering conspiracy theories (see the single short paragraph in Moon landing#Historical empirical evidence vs Moon landing conspiracy theories). But perhaps you should be more clear, what do you want included in the article? Outright conspiracy theory, or non-mainstream science? Where do you categorize the article above on the range of WP:FRINGE/PS? Bakkster Man (talk) 17:36, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- The current COVID-19_pandemic#Misinformation section provides an excessive summarization and fails to include any of the DUE conspiracy theories on this article. One or two sentences would be sufficient. Saying 'there are various false information and conspiracy theories' is excessive summarization. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 17:23, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- Per summary style and fringe it is not necessary for us to summarize fringe viewpoints outside of the sub article (the investigations into the origins). And yes, MEDRS is a valid reason to exclude things that can only be sourced to "popular news" articles, as investigation of a pandemic's origin, index cases, etc is biomedical information - whereas statistics are not, investigation of single cases is. The theory is not fully disproven at this point but is considered so unlikely as to be fringe by mainstream science. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 14:52, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
- There are no known sources of the virus. Disproving something that is not known is silly. Are there no other sources besides slate? I am guessing there are a few. There are numerous China lab leak theories as you point out, they are in fact theories, not conspiracies as the POV pushers would try to assert. I am not taking any position at this time on subsets of the China lab leak theory, whether it is a bioweapen, accidental, bats, etc. There is no discussion of the inclusion of that there and that is an attempt to the discussion off track, it is clear above what I am proposing. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 17:33, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Jtbobwaysf:
it is clear above what I am proposing
. With respect it is not. Perhaps it would be more clear if you wrote up the sentence you wanted added so we could discuss that, instead of hoping for someone else (who agrees with you) to write up the sentence under discussion. Until then, there's no point in continuing. Bakkster Man (talk) 18:04, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Jtbobwaysf:
- There are no known sources of the virus. Disproving something that is not known is silly. Are there no other sources besides slate? I am guessing there are a few. There are numerous China lab leak theories as you point out, they are in fact theories, not conspiracies as the POV pushers would try to assert. I am not taking any position at this time on subsets of the China lab leak theory, whether it is a bioweapen, accidental, bats, etc. There is no discussion of the inclusion of that there and that is an attempt to the discussion off track, it is clear above what I am proposing. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 17:33, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
Our MEDRS and the WHO report
Our MEDRS and RS on origins only weigh probabilities of different hypotheses as there is no direct evidence for any of them, and should therefore be properly attributed as opinions, and not presented as facts in Wikivoice. The probability of accidental zoonosis are based on priors and is weighed higher than probability of lab origins, which Chan and other much more senior scientists are reported in reliable sources to contest, as lab origins has both priors with SARS viruses leaking from biosecure labs in China and circumstantial evidence linking SARS-CoV-2 to WIV through RaTG13, as reported just yesterday in CNET. A multilateral statement by 14 governments contests the weighting of the four hypotheses made in the interim WHO report, which were quietly dropped from its final report, and the WHO DM made a follow on statement calling for further investigation
s of lab origins in specific . ::The lab origins hypothesis is falsifiable, as both our MEDRS and RS explicitly state, but only if China cooperates with these further investigations, specifically in providing access to its early patient and donor blood samples/data for seroanalysis. CutePeach (talk) 18:09, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
- MEDRS (and not just the WHO) explicitly put the lab leak on the "extremely unlikely" end of things. As for arguments to false balance and debunked arguments such as the RaTG13 "link" and political (not scientific) claims, that's already discussed in an RfC last year, and I don't see anything that has changed the situation. It's not WPs job nor purpose to advocate for "further investigations", nor to criticise the scientific consensus (there are multiple sources, not just MEDRS which explicitly say that natural zoonosis is the scientifically accepted hypothesis - you picking only the ones which report on politics is of course cherry-picking); nor to present minority opinions which are based on circumstantial evidence which in all honesty boils down to "there's a lab in Wuhan" (see the quote from a Nature article posted here or on some other talk page). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 18:18, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
- WP:FALSEBALANCE would apply only to really ridiculous origin hypotheses like meteorites, little green men or peeps. The WHO's joint study with China and the four main hypotheses they considered includes the laboratory leak hypothesis that was assessed in their interim report as
extremely unlikely
, but that appellation was dropped in their final report . The WHO DG later said lab origin hypothesis indeed requiresfurther investigation
, which he also stated after the interim report . The US led multilateral statement made in response to the long awaited final report on the WHO joint study "underscores" the need for an investigation withfull and open collaboration
from the government of China, which is well documented to have covered up the early outbreak of this pandemic , and is well documented to cover up stuff in the general. We should not express academic opinions or contrived government policies as facts in Wikivoice. CutePeach (talk) 18:46, 16 April 2021 (UTC)- Politics should not be confused with science. You shouldn't take governments as unbiased entities (especially not the US government which was led by the most virulent of COVID misinformation spreaders). We're writing on science. Re. the WHO report; what you're giving is the annexes, not the report itself, as should be clear from the file name and the first page. What the annexes do contain is stuff like "WIV was heavily targeted by conspiracy theories. Staff talked to media and scientific journalists to dispel the myths.", "the low likelihood that RaTG13 was the precursor of SARS-CoV-2", etc...; but that's nothing new, since you've obviously read the whole thing and are providing an unbiased assessment of it, since you're talking about it, right? RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 18:58, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
- Politics shouldn't be confused with science, and the WHO is science... right? We give due weight to all kinds of things at WP including green people as another editor points out above, not sure that was his objective ;-) Jtbobwaysf (talk) 19:02, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
- Even if we disregarded the WHO all other serious scientific sources point in the same direction... See WP:NOLABLEAK for a sampling. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 19:05, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
- Politics shouldn't be confused with science, and the WHO is science... right? We give due weight to all kinds of things at WP including green people as another editor points out above, not sure that was his objective ;-) Jtbobwaysf (talk) 19:02, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
- @CutePeach: Correcting a significant error in what you said above:
the laboratory leak hypothesis that was assessed in their interim report as
The first link is indeed the final report, and contains the "extremely unlikely" conclusion. The second link is a supplemental document with reference data, not a later or replacement document. It's also worth noting that this final report also concluded withextremely unlikely
, but that appellation was dropped in their final report ., the team called for a continued scientific and collaborative approach to be taken towards tracing the origins of COVID-19
. As for wikivoice, I suggest it's a stretch to say everything that might change in the future must be discussed as such in every article (see: WP:FRINGE). Consensus might change in the future, but that shouldn't stop us from describing current consensus. Bakkster Man (talk) 19:07, 16 April 2021 (UTC)- @Bakkster Man:, thank you for correcting that significant error as the final WHO report does in fact use the
extremely unlikely
appellation, which I missed late last night. I am much better rested now and already on my second coffee of the day. I think my main point still stands. The WHO DGcritiquedrejected the report’s findings saying that the team’sassessment
was notextensive enough
, and that the lab leak hypothesis needsfurther investigation
. The WHO’s Joint Study - which was performed by an independent group of scientists and not the WHO itself - is presented on the WHO website alongside the WHO DG’s statements , so the report should not be taken alone as the WHO’s official position on COVID-19 origins, until its findings are verified by underlying data . - Also, the US led multilateral response of WHO member states who would have liked to have had more of a say in the Terms of Reference of the Joint Study and for it have taken place earlier, and for further investigations to be expedited with
full and open collaboration
, casts doubt on the WHO Joint Study and its assessments , but agrees with the report’s call for acontinued scientific and collaborative approach
, as you pointed out. China's response to the WHO DG and the US led multilateral statement is not reassuring . Without blood samples/data, the lab leak hypothesis cannot be falsified, and if they are confident of the report’s findings, the Chinese government would have every reason to share the relevant data with the WHO like they did after the SARS-COV-1 epidemic of 2003 . WHO team member Dominic Dwyer said it is the norm for member states to share such data in a Public Health Emergency of International Concern . - As to your point on Wikivoice, the current scientific consensus on COVID-19 origins as presented in our MEDRS and RS - including the WHO report - is based entirely on weighing/assessing probabilities of different hypotheses based on priors and circumstantial evidence, and not on forensic or phylogenetic evidence. There are senior scientists and officials - including the WHO DG - expressing widely varying viewpoints supporting different hypotheses, but all of them call for further investigation of all hypotheses - including lab origins - which China has yet to acquiesce. All these views should be properly attributed as opinions and not stated as fact in Wikivoice, until direct evidence is presented in a peer reviewed journal, or the Chinese government releases the blood data/samples requested by the WHO. Since you want to discuss the application of this policy on other articles, it should be no different to how we treat China’s claims in the Spratly Islands and the Air Defense Identification Zone. They are just claims, which we attribute to the Government of China, and it's as simple as that. In this article, we should not present PRC claims as facts on matters pertaining to what looks like a matter of non compliance with International Health Regulations that are legally binding on all members of the World Health Organization. Those regulations were reformed after the Chinese government’s disastrous coverup of SARS-COV-1 and will have to be reformed again after SARS-COV-2 and what looks like another coverup on its origins and emergence . CutePeach (talk) 10:10, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Bakkster Man:, thank you for correcting that significant error as the final WHO report does in fact use the
- Politics should not be confused with science. You shouldn't take governments as unbiased entities (especially not the US government which was led by the most virulent of COVID misinformation spreaders). We're writing on science. Re. the WHO report; what you're giving is the annexes, not the report itself, as should be clear from the file name and the first page. What the annexes do contain is stuff like "WIV was heavily targeted by conspiracy theories. Staff talked to media and scientific journalists to dispel the myths.", "the low likelihood that RaTG13 was the precursor of SARS-CoV-2", etc...; but that's nothing new, since you've obviously read the whole thing and are providing an unbiased assessment of it, since you're talking about it, right? RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 18:58, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
- WP:FALSEBALANCE would apply only to really ridiculous origin hypotheses like meteorites, little green men or peeps. The WHO's joint study with China and the four main hypotheses they considered includes the laboratory leak hypothesis that was assessed in their interim report as
- It doesn't bode well for your argument when it triggers "use of deprecated (unreliable) source"... As to your WP:BLUDGEON wall of text, which I've likely addressed already, it again, from a quick glance, entirely fails to address anything, as even if we disregard the WHO and politics, that all of the other MEDRS do not treat the lab leak as something very plausible; and you have cited exactly zero MEDRS in your post so I can't be bothered to entertain further such WP:IDHT comments. Either cite MEDRS which treat the lab leak as something serious (if they exist); or be content with the existing section on misinformation. That or we'll be going to AE. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 14:57, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
- @CutePeach: I strongly disagree with this characterization:
The WHO DG
. I interpret the Director General's comments (direct link to avoid potential editorializing by news agencies) as entirely consistent with the report's conclusion: the team called for a continued scientific and collaborative approach to be taken towards tracing the origins of COVID-19.critiquedrejected the report’s findingsI welcome your report, which advances our understanding in important ways. It also raises further questions that will need to be addressed by further studies, as the team itself notes in the report... Finding the origin of a virus takes time and we owe it to the world to find the source so we can collectively take steps to reduce the risk of this happening again. No single research trip can provide all the answers. It is clear that we need more research across a range of areas, which will entail further field visits.
- I also don't think we "
present PRC claims as facts
". We are presenting WHO-published research as the scientific consensus. Whether or not Chinese cooperation or obstruction has limited our current understanding, this report is the current state of public understanding. As before, any criticisms would be more appropriately addressed on the Investigations into the origin of COVID-19 page instead of this one. For the same reason that we only describe subatomic particles in terms on the standard model on their pages, instead of including discussions of string theory. We would obviously need to rewrite those articles if sting theory became dominant, but until then they're written from the perspective of the dominant theory, with discussions of competing WP:FRINGE theories left for articles dedicated to that discussion. Bakkster Man (talk) 17:30, 17 April 2021 (UTC)- That comment you make about CP's dimissal of science as "PRC facts" also remind me of stuff of eerie ressemblance to POV pushing at other subjects. Painting the dominant position as only the POV of "one side" is exactly what some editors were doing at Talk:Turkish invasion of Cyprus (where the global position that this was an invasion is deemed by POV pushers to be the position of the "Greeks" and is therefore dismissed as being biased)... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 17:42, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Bakkster Man: the WHO DG’s statements were characteristized by at least one RS as having
rejected
the findings of the report, while most RS use the termcritique
, so I would agree to the latter term. - The claim that WHO-published research is the scientific consensus when we have the WHO DG, multiple WHO member states, and numerous independent scientists who do not agree with Terms of Reference of the Joint Study with China and the findings of the their report, due to the lack of underlying data for verification, is unsupported.
- The WHO DG’s remarks in reference to the Joint Study team’s
assessment
of a potentiallaboratory incident
as not beingextensive enough
are not in line with the team’s own proposal, which is why RS characterises them the way they do. - CutePeach (talk) 15:46, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
- @CutePeach: I disagree, a plain reading of the WHO DG's comments simply states that their work is not over until they have a definitive source. Not that their latest study is flawed or inaccurate or otherwise to be dismissed, just that the intention is to increase the level of certainty to the point they no longer need to apply probabilities to four different hypotheses. Until that happens, I see no reason to include the "extremely unlikely" scenario on this page. There are other pages where due weight and attention can be (and are) given, improve those if you find them lacking. Bakkster Man (talk) 16:07, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
- Bakkster Man, a plain reading of the WHO DG’s remarks states that the team's assessment was
not extensive enough
in relation to one of the hypotheses, which is not something they admitted to in their report, and is good reason for us not to present the report as scientific consensus and present its findings as facts, in Wikivoice. The WHO DG would not have made these remarks if there weren't concerns with one team member’s COI and even more significant concerns with their assessments , especially with the cold chain transmission hypothesis, which is unsupported by science . Please note that we are not discussing whether we should include the "extremely unlikely" scenario on this page, but how to present the WHO's report in light of the WHO DG's remarks, the concerns of independent scientists with assessments made in the WHO report , and the US led multilateral response, all of whom unanimously called for China to release underlying data. CutePeach (talk) 16:46, 19 April 2021 (UTC)- Calls for further investigations and criticism that further data needs to be made available to complete a more thorough assessment are not "good reason" to treat the report as bollocks. As to the rest (where I fail to see a single MEDRS), per the below, we should indeed "present the report as scientific consensus", criticism aside (academic publications of all kinds get criticised by academics themselves - that doesn't make them invalid; it only highlights what needs to be further researched). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 17:02, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
- Also, from the WHO report itself (you've clearly read it, since you're criticising it so much, so this shouldn't be news to you): (p. 9)
The team assessed the relative likelihood of these pathways and prioritized further studies that would potentially increase knowledge and understanding globally.
So your comment that it is "not something they admitted to in their report" is wrong. Clearly we should not use popular press misrepresentations for this. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 17:06, 19 April 2021 (UTC)- CutePeach While the words "not... extensive enough" were only used for one hypothesis, all four hypotheses and the lack of raw data access were referenced by the WHO DG in his statement. That's the plain reading I'm referring to, the team and the DG are in agreement, everything needs further study.
Please note that we are not discussing whether we should include the "extremely unlikely" scenario on this page, but how to present the WHO's report in light of...
Which specific section are you referring to. The report is only cited twice on the page. Once near the top in Background, alongside multiple other strong sources about the early cluster of cases at the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market. And again about halfway down in the History 2019 section discussing the findings relative to the earlier hypothesis that the market was the original source of the outbreak. IMO, critiques of the WHO report don't particularly fit in either of these sections, where due to the brevity of the sections they'd risk being WP:UNDUE (an issue the Investigations into the origin of COVID-19 article does not have). Bakkster Man (talk) 17:22, 19 April 2021 (UTC)- @Bakkster Man: the WHO DG presser can be considered an addendum in that it tells the reader that in regards to a
laboratory incident
, the team'sassessment
wasnot extensive enough
. You may be having trouble reading the WHO DG’s remarks, but one Chinese member of the team does and his government does not . If you are still in doubt, we can have the Wikimedia Foundation reach out to WHO Director of Communications Gabriella Stern, as we do not want to misrepresent the WHO’s position here on Misplaced Pages . As Guy Macon says in the Misinformation page, if there are MEDRS compliant sources on the topic of how where and how the SARS‑CoV‑2 virus first entered the human population, then it is due for SARS-COV-2 page, and presumably also this page. I would not say that the WHO’s remarks put forward any position as to how and where SARS-COV-2 entered the human population, but I would say that the WHO report and DG’s remarks are MEDRS, and that they should give us pause when we state expert opinions as facts in Wikivoice. I do not ask for more than that. CutePeach (talk) 16:32, 22 April 2021 (UTC)- @CutePeach: Please stay WP:CIVIL. I took care to ensure I did so (along with WP:AGF) when pointing out your errors above (which, IMO, would be appropriate for you to strikeout if you concur they're in error). I appreciate if you can extend the same courtesy rather than accusing me of not reading the remarks.
- Taking the full WHO DG comments on the topic:
The team also visited several laboratories in Wuhan and considered the possibility that the virus entered the human population as a result of a laboratory incident. However, I do not believe that this assessment was extensive enough. Further data and studies will be needed to reach more robust conclusions. Although the team has concluded that a laboratory leak is the least likely hypothesis, this requires further investigation, potentially with additional missions involving specialist experts, which I am ready to deploy.
Taking it all in context, he's calling for more robust conclusions. This should not be taken to imply the current conclusion is not at all robust, rather that the goal is to move from a less robust estimate to a more robust definitive conclusion. It's inappropriate to selectively quote to change the context, especially when the calls for further studies on the other 3 hypothesis are not referenced. - As I said before, I've given my perspective on this topic being WP:UNDUE in this article. Unless you have a specific proposal on what content to add to which section of this article that meets the criteria of
depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, juxtaposition of statements and use of imagery
then I stand by my statement above. Bakkster Man (talk) 17:19, 22 April 2021 (UTC) - @Bakkster Man: I do have faith in you, which is why I repeatedly explained my point of view based on my reading of the primary source and provided affirmatory reports from secondary sources. I sincerely apologise for my remarks on your comprehension abilities and I will again explain my point of view, with one additional caveat for your benefit.
- Explaining away the WHO DG's very pointed remarks on the team’s report that were characterized in numerous RS as fault and criticism, like in - as well as overlooking the US multilateral responses to the report as reported in numerous RS, like in - and casting aside the open letters from independent scientists that were published in the Wall Street Journal , New York Times and Le Monde , to present in Wikivoice that there is scientific consensus on COVID-19 origins, would be a gross violation of WP:V and WP:NPOV. It would also violate WP:MEDRS, since the WHO team report along with the WHO DG’s remarks are our highest quality MEDRS and should not be misquoted, misinterpreted, or misrepresented in any way. If you have secondary RS supporting your reading of this primary MEDRS, please put it in your feedback to my suggestions below.
- For the caveat: the WHO DG could have made his statements clearer, but the ambiguity can be understood in the context of the "diplomatic balancing act" he has to put on , with the help of a very skilled spokesperson. Nonetheless, a faithful reading of his statement clearly shows that his remarks in relation to the lab leak hypothesis were in fact an addendum to the team’s report, which the Chinese government clearly agrees with me on in the protests they’ve made through their state controlled media , as reported in this RS . These protests are WP:DUE for coverage in this article as the WHO DG’s remarks we are discussing here were made in reaction to the alleged politicization of the science by the Government of China . The WHO does not exist in a political vacuum, and this report was based on a "Joint Study" with China, which could have been subject to political meddling, or worse, censoring .
- What is known and unknown about the origins of the virus that caused this pandemic are WP:DUE for this page and the SARS-COV-2 page, like they would be for any other page on other pandemic and viruses, which Drbogdan, Jtbobwaysf and Ozzie10aaaa seem to agree with me on. CutePeach (talk) 15:34, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Bakkster Man: the WHO DG presser can be considered an addendum in that it tells the reader that in regards to a
- Bakkster Man, a plain reading of the WHO DG’s remarks states that the team's assessment was
- @CutePeach: I disagree, a plain reading of the WHO DG's comments simply states that their work is not over until they have a definitive source. Not that their latest study is flawed or inaccurate or otherwise to be dismissed, just that the intention is to increase the level of certainty to the point they no longer need to apply probabilities to four different hypotheses. Until that happens, I see no reason to include the "extremely unlikely" scenario on this page. There are other pages where due weight and attention can be (and are) given, improve those if you find them lacking. Bakkster Man (talk) 16:07, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
- @CutePeach: I strongly disagree with this characterization:
- (edit conflict) So let's disregard the WHO for a moment. What of all the other MEDRS (and popular press too, despite their false balance) which quite explicitly say that the hypothesis most favoured by scientists is indeed natural spillover. Recent MEDRS:
- Mishra, Sanjay Kumar; Tripathi, Timir (2021). "One year update on the COVID-19 pandemic: Where are we now?". Acta Tropica. 214: 105778. doi:10.1016/j.actatropica.2020.105778. ISSN 0001-706X.
All human CoVs have zoonotic origin and are capable of transmission among mammalian hosts; however, most CoVs originate in bats and are transmitted to humans through domestic animals
andSARS-CoV-2 is thought to have originated in bats via genetic recombination of existing bat CoV strains and to have been transmitted from bats to humans either directly or through unknown intermediate hosts, similarly to the roles of civets and camels in SARS-CoV and MERS-CoV, respectively.
(no mention of a lab, anywhere)
- Adil, Md Tanveer; Rahman, Rumana; Whitelaw, Douglas; Jain, Vigyan; Al-Taan, Omer; Rashid, Farhan; Munasinghe, Aruna; Jambulingam, Periyathambi (1 February 2021). "SARS-CoV-2 and the pandemic of COVID-19". Postgraduate Medical Journal. 97 (1144): 110–116. doi:10.1136/postgradmedj-2020-138386. ISSN 0032-5473.
Another unconfirmed hypothesis that has received mixed response is the possibility of the virus originating in Wuhan’s Centre of Disease Control and Prevention, located just 300 yards away from Wuhan’s animal market or the Wuhan Institute of Virology located eight miles away from the animal market.13 Conspiracy theories about a possible accidental leak from either of these laboratories known to be experimenting with bats and bat CoVs that has shown some structural similarity to human SARS-CoV-2 has been suggested, but largely dismissed by most authorities.
- so an "unconfirmed hypothesis", "mixed response", "conspiracy theory" and "largely dismissed by most authorities" (if you haven't got the memo, that's solidly WP:FRINGE.
- Hu, Ben; Guo, Hua; Zhou, Peng; Shi, Zheng-Li (6 October 2020). "Characteristics of SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19". Nature Reviews. Microbiology: 1–14. doi:10.1038/s41579-020-00459-7. ISSN 1740-1526.
- Has much too many interesting things to quote all of it. However, I note that there are repeated calls for further investigations (like the WHO report and the apparent critique from the DG et al.) and that there is clear discussion of the preponderance of evidence regarding spillover and hypotheses about the specifics of that.
- So back to the WHO report. It maybe doesn't tell anything new or significant, but it certainly gives more weight to the existing scientific consensus, which is that the virus spilled over from bats (via an intermediary host); and that further research is required. Little, if any, mention of lab leaks or other "extremely unlikely" hypotheses. Given this is the main topic article and that it is already overly long, we should summarise the main consensus (already done), which is that the virus spilled over naturally. Alternative theories (like alternative facts) can be relegated to sub-articles about political investigations and misinformation; despite the efforts of a dedicated twitter group that claims the contrary. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 16:22, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
- I agree with RandomCanadian, alternative theories should be sub-articles and the main article should be focused on relevant scientific consensus, otherwise we would have an article full of speculation and unfounded theories that would simply waste space and deter from the purpose of providing relevant information. Jurisdicta (talk) 23:22, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
@CutePeach: can you please propose a sentence with sources and if it looks ok we run an RFC. This can only be addressed through RFC process. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 18:32, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
- It only needs an RFC if it's contentious. If it's a clear proposal that obviously meets policy, you might find there's no opposition to accepting it as-is. It seems unlikely at this point, but possible. Bakkster Man (talk) 19:01, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
- What it appears to me is there are various interpretations of policy above and the discussion is plenty contentious (bold text, colors, etc). Agree, there needs to be a proposed sentence, I will make one below. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 19:50, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
Suggestion #1
Here is a proposal: 'Robert R. Redfield, Alina Chan of the Broad Institute, Donald Trump, Tom Cotton, and others have asserted that COVID-19 escaped from Wuhan Institute of Virology. This claim is not accepted by the mainstream.' This is not an RFC obviously, just a discussion. I didn't bother with the sources, since we know there are many for each of these. Some probably MEDRS compliant, and many probably not. I dont think this claim is subject to MEDRS regardless. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 19:52, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
- There's no issue with the factual validity of that statement. The issue, as it has always been, is one of "this article is already too long, we need to summarise" and WP:UNDUE (is the view of a minority, mostly deemed to be misinformation, unfounded speculation and a conspiracy theory really worthy of being singled out amongst all of the others?). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 19:55, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
- The only addition here is wordiness - the article already, under the misinformation section, states the following:
False information has also been propagated by celebrities, politicians, and other prominent public figures
andWithout evidence, some people have claimed the virus is a bioweapon accidentally or purposefully leaked from a laboratory
. I fail to see how adding specifics would greatly improve this article, because those should ideally be added to COVID-19 misinformation if not already present, as that is linked in the "main article" hatnote of that section. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 20:01, 22 April 2021 (UTC) - you might want to 'spell out' who Robert Redfield is...I think we need something added to the article, however worded a different way...IMO--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 20:31, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
- Ditto above, it remains a large chunk of text wherever we'd place it on this page. Where do you recommend placing it? To me, this content still makes more sense on other pages. Regarding content, I'd rather see it focus on notable adherents within science/medicine (rather than politicians), and not purely US figures. Bakkster Man (talk) 14:47, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
- Indeed the politicians may not be necessary, could remove Tom Cotton, maybe too much US focus. Trump is probably enough of a global figure to probably be due, Cotton maybe not so much. Are there some other notable (we could wikilink) science community figures that are non-US that have made this claim? I found David Relman and Nikolai Petrovsky of Flinders University here, and Tedros Adhanom of WHO here Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 18:00, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
- Relman and Petrovsky, yes. I'd cite Relman's original opinion piece, and think both can go straight into the relevant sentence in Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2#Reservoir and zoonotic origin alongside Redfield.
- For Tedros Adhanom, I'd categorize that as a reliable source reporting on a 3rd party's (Elizabeth Economy) interpretation of his statement. Neither Adhanom's nor Economy's opinion reach what I think could be considered support for the hypothesis as likely. I'd go so far as to say we'd potentially be violating WP:BLP unless we can cite a direct quote from the person, advocating for the likelihood of of the theory. We don't have that for Adhanom, and even Economy's quote in the article falls far short:
I think the administration has made it pretty clear that given the lack of Chinese transparency, it is not comfortable eliminating the lab escape theory.The fact that WHO head Tedros, who has previously championed China's transparency, stated that more extensive research was needed before eliminating the possibility that the virus escaped from the lab signals that continued skepticism is merited.
To be clear, this is not anything beyond the existing WHO conclusions cited: the lab escape hypothesis is unlikely, but still requires further study before ruling it out. Any person identified here as an adherent should be on the record as directly opposing this conclusion. Bakkster Man (talk) 20:30, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
- Example of the text in the context of one possible article placement, which makes it easier to evaluate due/undue weight.
Although it is still unknown exactly where the first case originated from, the first outbreak started in Wuhan, Hubei, China in late 2019. Many early cases of COVID-19 have been attributed to people who had visited the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market in Wuhan. On 11 February 2020, the World Health Organization (WHO) named the disease "COVID-19", which is short for coronavirus disease 2019. The virus that caused the outbreak is known as severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), a newly discovered virus closely related to bat coronaviruses, pangolin coronaviruses, and SARS-CoV. Scientific consensus is that COVID-19 is a zoonotic virus that arose from bats in a natural setting.
The earliest known person with symptoms was later discovered to have fallen ill on 1 December 2019, and that person did not have visible connections with the later wet market cluster. However, an earlier case of infection could have occurred on 17 November. Of the early cluster of cases reported that month, two thirds were found to have a link with the market. There are several theories about when and where the very first case (the so-called patient zero) originated. Robert R. Redfield, Alina Chan of the Broad Institute, Donald Trump, Tom Cotton, and others have asserted that COVID-19 escaped from Wuhan Institute of Virology. This claim is not accepted by the mainstream.- Bakkster Man (talk) 17:00, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
- As proposed it can't really go anywhere but the misinformation section, since by putting it anywhere else it would create false balance between the scientific view and the politicians. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 19:30, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
- Better:
The COVID-19 pandemic has resulted in misinformation and conspiracy theories about the scale of the pandemic and the origin, prevention, diagnosis, and treatment of the disease. Several politicians and their appointees, such as Donald Trump and Robert R. Redfield, have notably asserted that COVID-19 escaped from a lab, a claim which is not supported by virologists and most other scientists.
At which point that brings us back to DUE, as in "is it really that notable, amongst all the misinformation, to warrant a mention here"? RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 19:33, 23 April 2021 (UTC)- You are suggesting to add the politician part? If there is consensus on that part we can move on to the non-political part. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 20:33, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
- I was suggesting a wording, but no I'm not sure we should add it, per the concerns I raise about WP:UNDUE (lab leak is one misinformation among so many). Still the same issue with your comment below. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 20:36, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
- You are suggesting wording that you think is undue? I'm confused. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 20:39, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
- Despite personal reservations, I was suggesting how it could possibly be done (so as to guide further discussion) - not that I think it should; because the other proposal was even more UNDUE. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 20:44, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
- You are suggesting wording that you think is undue? I'm confused. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 20:39, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
- I was suggesting a wording, but no I'm not sure we should add it, per the concerns I raise about WP:UNDUE (lab leak is one misinformation among so many). Still the same issue with your comment below. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 20:36, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
- You are suggesting to add the politician part? If there is consensus on that part we can move on to the non-political part. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 20:33, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
- Better:
- As proposed it can't really go anywhere but the misinformation section, since by putting it anywhere else it would create false balance between the scientific view and the politicians. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 19:30, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
- Indeed the politicians may not be necessary, could remove Tom Cotton, maybe too much US focus. Trump is probably enough of a global figure to probably be due, Cotton maybe not so much. Are there some other notable (we could wikilink) science community figures that are non-US that have made this claim? I found David Relman and Nikolai Petrovsky of Flinders University here, and Tedros Adhanom of WHO here Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 18:00, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
Suggestion #2 (non political)
In this one, we remove the politicians entirely looking at the scientists and public health officials only (probably better we look at the issues separately given the above comments.) Robert R. Redfield, Alina Chan of the Broad Institute, David Relman, Nikolai Petrovsky of Flinders University, Tedros Adhanom, and others have asserted that COVID-19 could have escaped from Wuhan Institute of Virology. This claim is not accepted by the mainstream. Comments? Jtbobwaysf (talk) 20:33, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
- Which section of this article are you recommending this go? Bakkster Man (talk) 20:35, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
- I haven't given a lot of thought to the section yet. Do you have one to propose? Jtbobwaysf (talk) 20:37, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
- Personally, still not convinced it's right for this article. Prefer it in the SARS-CoV-2 article where there's a significantly longer discussion. Bakkster Man (talk) 01:22, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
- I dont see the other article you suggested contains any exploration of cause or the China theory. Anyhow, I wasn't prosing to add the content on that article and this talk page we discuss this article. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 09:29, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
- I haven't given a lot of thought to the section yet. Do you have one to propose? Jtbobwaysf (talk) 20:37, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
- definite improvement over option 1, would probably agree to support its addition in the article--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 21:29, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
- I think we could afford to give Trump a namecheck (since he's been described as the biggest spreader of it), but we don't need to start listing others (and we don't need to put words into the mouth of Tedros - he only said it required more investigation) - they're an extreme minority of scientists. A statement such as
Donald Trump, amongst others, has asserted that COVID-19 could have escaped from a lab, a claim dismissed by scientists.
would be more in line with the purpose of this article which is a summary of the topic; but would still run in the issue that it needlessly highlights one specific piece of misinformation more than all of the rest. Cheers, RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 23:21, 23 April 2021 (UTC)- This, basically. About the only addition to the current material in the section I could see as due for this article (keeping in mind this article is to be a summary of the child article) is Trump's name possibly, but even then I don't support an addition of names as I think the current summary is more than sufficient given the hatnote to the full article. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 23:29, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
- I think we could afford to give Trump a namecheck (since he's been described as the biggest spreader of it), but we don't need to start listing others (and we don't need to put words into the mouth of Tedros - he only said it required more investigation) - they're an extreme minority of scientists. A statement such as
- Normally a pandemic article would have some exploration of the cause of the pandemic, and that would be DUE. In this case the controversy surrounding the cause and lack of knowledge about it. The current formulation is essentially a POV that the cause is known and it isn't xyx (neither factually correct nor supported by the sources). In this option #2 Trump is not a proposed formulation (that was proposed in #1) and in #1 you stated it was UNDUE, and are in this section saying it should be included. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 09:26, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
- logic dictates that scientist (non-politicians) have the capacity to understand what 'could have technically/scientifically' occurred to advance this minority opinion, furthermore since the Dr Tedros who leads WHO has not discounted the possibility then that is all that is needed. 1)a possibility that is being/will be investigated by WHO, and 2) a minority view/support by MD/PhD like former CDC chief who believe so...IMO--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 12:00, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
- To quote ToBeFree "Whether people have been infected by a leaked biological weapon or a common zoonotic disease is an epidemiological question whose answer has an enormous effect on the public reaction to the pandemic, so Misplaced Pages is in a reputational and moral position that requires it to enforce extremely strict sourcing requirements." We are in no position to make a false balance on the main topic article between an extreme minority which only gets reported in WP:MEDPOP sources, and the relevant community, which is that of WP:MEDRS. That there are (non-scientific) "controversies" over the pandemic's origin is already in the article, with DUE weight. Right at COVID-19_pandemic#Misinformation. A short sentence about this "controversy" could possibly go at COVID-19_pandemic#Politics, if it can be framed as part of larger political controversies. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 15:10, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
- logic dictates that scientist (non-politicians) have the capacity to understand what 'could have technically/scientifically' occurred to advance this minority opinion, furthermore since the Dr Tedros who leads WHO has not discounted the possibility then that is all that is needed. 1)a possibility that is being/will be investigated by WHO, and 2) a minority view/support by MD/PhD like former CDC chief who believe so...IMO--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 12:00, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
- Normally a pandemic article would have some exploration of the cause of the pandemic, and that would be DUE. In this case the controversy surrounding the cause and lack of knowledge about it. The current formulation is essentially a POV that the cause is known and it isn't xyx (neither factually correct nor supported by the sources). In this option #2 Trump is not a proposed formulation (that was proposed in #1) and in #1 you stated it was UNDUE, and are in this section saying it should be included. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 09:26, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
References
Suggestion #3 (short)
Since its outbreak in Wuhan in late 2019, the exact origins of COVID-19 remain unknown. In a November 2019 editorial, Microbiologist David Relman wrote "efforts to investigate the origins of the virus became mired in politics, poorly supported assumptions and assertions, and incomplete information". White House officials, US Senator Tom Cotton and President Donald Trump floated claims that the virus may have originated in a lab in Wuhan rather than a seafood market, as first reported. A WHO convened study found that the most likely hypothesis was a zoonotic transmission from a reservoir host to humans through an intermediary host at a local market in Wuhan, and that the least likely hypothesis was the lab leak, but the WHO Director General said that the assessment of the lab leak hypothesis was not extensive enough, calling upon China to cooperative on further investigations and provide access to supporting data. China responded to the WHO Director General’s criticism of the report saying the lab leak theory was ruled out, alleging that the WHO DG was yielding to political pressure. . In a series of open letters published in the Wall Street Journal, Le Monde, and New York Times, a group of independent scientists calling themselves the "The Paris Group" called upon the WHO to conduct an forensic investigation. In a multilateral statement, US Government with 13 other WHO member states joined the WHO DG in criticizing the WHO report, and with the European Union, called upon China to be more timely and transparent in further investigations with the WHO and provide access to raw data.
I would welcome any constructive feedback to improve this contribution. CutePeach (talk) 12:19, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
References
- https://www.pnas.org/content/117/47/29246
- https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/11/us/politics/coronavirus-trump-response.html
- https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/04/inside-the-the-viral-spread-of-a-coronavirus-origin-theory
- https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/495571-trump-says-he-has-seen-evidence-linking-coronavirus-to-wuhan-lab
- https://www.who.int/health-topics/coronavirus/origins-of-the-virus
- https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-30/who-chief-critiques-covid-report-says-lab-leak-study-needed?utm_source=google&utm_medium=bd&cmpId=google
- https://www.ft.com/content/a1f8f340-46d8-405b-b1ab-a2b2a6c84534
- https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3130470/coronavirus-chinese-expert-rails-against-tedros-and-wuhan-lab
- https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20210331-china-under-pressure-after-who-chief-revives-lab-leak-theory
- https://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2021/03/04/relevant-les-failles-de-la-mission-de-l-oms-a-wuhan-des-scientifiques-appellent-a-une-veritable-enquete-independante-sur-les-origines-du-covid-19_6071962_3244.html
- https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/COVID%20OPEN%20LETTER%20FINAL%20030421%20(1).pdf
- https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/04/07/science/virus-inquiries-pandemic-origins.html
- https://www.state.gov/joint-statement-on-the-who-convened-covid-19-origins-study/
- https://eeas.europa.eu/delegations/un-geneva/95960/eu-statement-who-led-covid-19-origins-study_en
- https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/who-wuhan-tedros-lab/2021/03/30/896fe3f6-90d1-11eb-aadc-af78701a30ca_story.html
Suggestion #4 (long)
| Extended content |
|---|
|
Since its outbreak in Wuhan in late 2019, the exact origins of COVID-19 remain unknown. In a November 2019 editorial, Microbiologist David Relman wrote "efforts to investigate the origins of the virus became mired in politics, poorly supported assumptions and assertions, and incomplete information".
Initial reports in China indicated that the virus may have originated in the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market where trade in exotic species through wildlife smuggling, though illegal in China, was known to take place. Several papers were published in early 2019 implicating Pangolins as intermediate species, but have no supporting data has been provided by the authors. Mainstream media in early 2019 reported the origins of the virus as a likely zoonosis between exotic species and humans at the market. Some scientists say the zoonosis may have occurred outside the market.
In a February 10 email exchange between infectious disease doctors and medical experts in the US federal government dubbed as the Red Dawn Emails, then White House advisor Mark Keim stated "The novel virus could be anthropogenic rather than zoonotic". In February 16 Foxnews interview with Maria Bartiromo, Democrat Senator Tom Cotton floated the theory that the virus may have originated in the Wuhan Institute of Virology near the Seafood Market, saying that "because of China’s duplicity and dishonesty from the beginning, we need to at least ask the question to see what the evidence says." On 30 April 2020 US Republican President Donald Trump claimed he had seen evidence pointing to the Wuhan Institute of Virology as the origin of the virus saying “the World Health Organization should be ashamed of themselves because they're like the public relations agency for China."
Peter Daszak, a British zoologist and an expert on disease ecology, in particular on zoonosis and president of Ecohealth Alliance, said on DemocracyNow "The idea that this virus escaped from a lab is just pure baloney". In a letter published in The Lancet, a group of scientists led by Peter Daszak stated that natural origins of SARS-COV-2] like with most prior outbreaks from zoonotic diseases is far more likely, condemning the lab origins theory as a conspiracy theory. Trump who was publicly criticising the WHO at the time for being "China centric" over its response of the virus’s early emergence in Wuhan, was criticized for politicising the virus. Trump was criticized for blaming China to distract from his administration’s bungled response to pandemic in the USA, and even scientists for investigating the possibility of the lab origins of the virus became scared of the politically toxic notion .
In mid 2020, the WHO negotiated with the government of China on conducting an investigation into the origins of COVID-19. By November 2020, the WHO had agreed on a "Terms of Reference" for what China called a "Joint Study", the first phase of which would be undertaken by a Chinese team and the second phase to be completed by international teams of scientists. The terms of reference were criticised by independent scientists for allowing China basing the results of the study on research carried out by the Chinese side. The appointment of Peter Daszak of EcoHealth Alliance to the international team stirred controversy, as his organisation’s association as a funding partner of Shi Zhengli’s research at Wuhan Institute of Virology was perceived as possible conflict of interest by scientist Richard Ebright. The Trump administration called the study a "Potemkin exercise", citing that even the Chinese CDC Director George Gao aand other Chinese government officials had ruled out the Seafood Market as the source of the virus. The Biden administration said the US would not accept the WHO report without independently verifying its findings.
On March 30, the WHO published a report entitled "WHO-convened Global Study of the Origins, presenting four scenarios as how the virus was first introduced to humans, including direct zoonotic transmission from a reservoir host, through an intermediate host, the (cold) food chain, or a laboratory incident.Cite error: There are |
All constructive feedback welcome. CutePeach (talk) 12:52, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
- Why leave out the WHO guy Tedros? I guess there will be claims this is too long. Certainly, this has more prose and context and might be ok from my view, I think I would cut out a sentence or two of the US centric content (just to be more global). In my proposals above I was trying to keep it really short as there seem to be cries of TOOLONG and UNDUE time after time above, and as an editor who doesn't really follow this article much, I thought it best to insert one sentence or maybe two to start. Your content is really useful as you clearly understand the story much better than me. Seems we could at least have one sentence on politics and another on science, and a lot of this content would go on what the other editors are calling misinformation. I have no idea how the US govt and 13 member states could be considered misinformation, but that seems to be the current state of the POV of this article (certainly unbalanced). Jtbobwaysf (talk) 14:48, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
- No If one sentence mentioning Trump is likely UNDUE; this (which adds a whole 4 paragraphs on the lab leak) is not even worthy of our time or discussion. It doesn't go here - maybe, in a greatly summarised form, at the misinformation page, where it already pretty much is. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 15:05, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
References
- https://www.pnas.org/content/117/47/29246
- https://www.cnet.com/features/the-complex-messy-hunt-for-covid-19s-origin-and-the-lab-leak-theory/
- https://v.ifeng.com/c/7wkpZjpvyCW?fbclid=IwAR2oIdwGmWyPHPNySKOwuB2RDPu0oCAvzOUp8AfI30mqfHJYfWNgNPKW5jw
- https://usrtk.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Pangolin_Papers_Perlman_Emails.pdf
- https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/01/wuhan-seafood-market-may-not-be-source-novel-virus-spreading-globally
- https://www.ianbirrell.com/will-we-ever-learn-the-truth-about-china-and-the-pandemic/
- https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/11/us/politics/coronavirus-trump-response.html
- https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/04/inside-the-the-viral-spread-of-a-coronavirus-origin-theory
- https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/495571-trump-says-he-has-seen-evidence-linking-coronavirus-to-wuhan-lab
- https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30418-9/fulltext
- https://www.lemonde.fr/sciences/article/2020/12/22/a-l-origine-de-la-pandemie-de-covid-19-un-virus-sars-cov-2-aux-sources-toujours-enigmatiques_6064168_1650684.html
- https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-52224183
- https://theintercept.com/2020/05/19/coronavirus-pandemic-origin-trump-china/
- https://www.who.int/publications/m/item/who-convened-global-study-of-the-origins-of-sars-cov-2
- https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/02/world/who-china-coronavirus.html
- https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4119101
- https://www.cnet.com/features/the-complex-messy-hunt-for-covid-19s-origin-and-the-lab-leak-theory/
- https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-world-needs-a-real-investigation-into-the-origins-of-covid-19-11610728316
- https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/biological-weapons-lab-leaked-coronavirus-claims-us-official-tfw829wxh
- https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-rules-out-animal-market-and-lab-as-coronavirus-origin-11590517508
- https://www.state.gov/briefings/department-press-briefing-february-9-2021/
- https://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/3121217/us-will-not-accept-world-health-organization-findings-out-wuhan-without
- https://www.who.int/director-general/speeches/detail/who-director-general-s-remarks-at-the-member-state-briefing-on-the-report-of-the-international-team-studying-the-origins-of-sars-cov-2
- https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-30/who-chief-critiques-covid-report-says-lab-leak-study-needed
- https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/who-report-says-covid-originated-in-bats-but-critics-claim-the-study-was-biased
- https://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2021/03/04/relevant-les-failles-de-la-mission-de-l-oms-a-wuhan-des-scientifiques-appellent-a-une-veritable-enquete-independante-sur-les-origines-du-covid-19_6071962_3244.html
- https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/COVID%20OPEN%20LETTER%20FINAL%20030421%20(1).pdf
- https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/04/07/science/virus-inquiries-pandemic-origins.html
- https://www.state.gov/joint-statement-on-the-who-convened-covid-19-origins-study/
- https://eeas.europa.eu/delegations/un-geneva/95960/eu-statement-who-led-covid-19-origins-study_en
- https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/who-wuhan-tedros-lab/2021/03/30/896fe3f6-90d1-11eb-aadc-af78701a30ca_story.html
Important question about figures.
The Covid death toll reached 3 million many days ago. However, for the last few days this article was displaying a figure less than 3 million. For example, 2.9 or 2.89 million. Feel free to look at previous versions. Any reason for this? P.S. I'm not saying that the editors are always misleading or disruptive. 123.103.210.114 (talk) 08:02, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
- The data gets pulled from Template:Cases in the COVID-19 pandemic, and sometimes takes a bit to get updated. If you notice something is clearly wrong, head over to that talk page. Bakkster Man (talk) 13:22, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
- Sure. Thanks for your help.123.103.210.114 (talk) 06:20, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
First sentence in second paragraph
The first sentence of the second paragraph says:
Symptoms of COVID-19 are highly variable, ranging from none to life-threatening illness. Is "illness" redundant? The second half of the sentence feels slightly awkward but maybe I'm just seeing ghosts AltoStev 18:56, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
- @AltoStev: "life-threatening conditions"? Better? RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 19:36, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
- I changed it to "ranging from none to life-threateningly severe". I think that is the correct grammar, since these would be adjectives describing the symptoms. MartinezMD (talk) 20:56, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
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