Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:15, 30 April 2021

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Judaism Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Judaism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Judaism-related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JudaismWikipedia:WikiProject JudaismTemplate:WikiProject JudaismJudaism Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Jewish history High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish history on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish historyWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish historyTemplate:WikiProject Jewish historyJewish history-related High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Israel High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Project Israel To Do: edit history watch purge Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Assess : Rate the Unassessed Israel-related articles and Unknown-importance Israel-related articles. Cleanup : Cleanup listing for this project is available. See also the list by category and the tool's wiki page. Collaborate : Participate in WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration. Copyedit : Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2005 Deletion sorting : Participate in discussions at WikiProject Deletion sorting/Israel. Expand : Ayala Procaccia, Diamond industry in Israel, Edna Arbel, Levin Kipnis, Rami Kleinstein, Sephardic Haredim, Zman Tel Aviv, Nachum Heiman, Public Defence (Israel), Prisoner of Zion, Trial of Benjamin Netanyahu, Day to Mark the Departure and Expulsion of Jews from the Arab Countries and Iran, Pre-Modern Aliyah See also Articles needing translation from Hebrew Misplaced Pages. Geographical coordinates : Add geographic coordinates to Israel articles missing geocoordinate data. Infobox : Add infoboxes to Israel articles needing infoboxes. Maintain : See Israel articles needing attention. Map : See discussion at Module:Location map/data/Israel. Add maps to articles in Misplaced Pages requested maps in Israel. NPOV : Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries Photo : Add pictures to articles in Misplaced Pages requested photographs in Israel. Stubs : See Israel stubs. Update : Basic Law proposal: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People Other : Translate to Hebrew : David Bar-Hayim, Guy Bavli, and Guy Oseary. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Palestine Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic Palestine region, the Palestinian people and the State of Palestine on Misplaced Pages. Join us by visiting the project page, where you can add your name to the list of members where you can contribute to the discussions.PalestineWikipedia:WikiProject PalestineTemplate:WikiProject PalestinePalestine-related Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Military history: Middle East This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status: Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met Associated task forces: /  Middle Eastern military history task force Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Former countries This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). If you would like to participate, please join the project.Former countriesWikipedia:WikiProject Former countriesTemplate:WikiProject Former countriesformer country Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Ancient Near East This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ancient Near East, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of ancient Near East–related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ancient Near EastWikipedia:WikiProject Ancient Near EastTemplate:WikiProject Ancient Near EastAncient Near East ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Archives

Archive 1

From the end of the Kingdom ...

I have done some edits in this section.

Since 63 Judea was under Roman supremacy, but at first it was not province but under the Hasmonean high-priest and his chief-minister Antipater, father to Herod.

I also have problems with the following_

37 BC–AD 100: The Herodian Kingdom of Judaea, an autonomous realm within the Roman Empire. The last Herodian King, Agrippa II (c. 48 - 100), sided with the Romans in the first Jewish Revolt of 66 - 73, which saw the Temple destroyed in AD 70.

Herod's kingdom existed until his death in 4 BC. After that it was split between his sons and reunited only between 41 and 44 under Agrippa I.

From 6 to 41 and from 44 to 66 Judea (in the narrower sense) was under direct Roman rule under a procurator subject to the Roman legate in Syria.

Sometime between 66 and 70 Judea was elevated to the status of province under a legate. This province was renamed Palestine after 135.

How should this be worded?

I also removed the phrase "ultimately giving its name to modernity as Western Society" from the Roman Empire section, since it seemed to me both off-topic and quite strange.

Finally, I also rectified the Ptolemaian-Seleucid period and elaborated on the Crusades period.

Str1977 11:14, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Feeding in on that issue is another question: What territory does this article actually cover? Is it only Judea or is it "Palestine" in toto? Please answer someone.

PS. And please take care not to revert substantial edits while fighting out fruitless edit wars. Str1977 21:57, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

I think the answer to how to deal with the early Roman period is contained in the answer as to what territory the article covers. I would basically suggest that this should cover the approximate territory of the Kingdom of Judah - i.e., the later Judaea - and not nearby territories like Idumaea, Samaria, Galilee, Iturea, Batanea, and so forth. Why should an article called "Kingdom of Judah" cover Palestine in toto? john k 15:30, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Judah and Israel

I had a look into the Kingdom of Israel article which starts with King Saul. Shouldn't the Kingdom of Judah article accordingly start with David? After all: when Saul died, the Judeans made David their king, while another part of the Israelites made Ishbaal king. Only after the latter's death did David unite the two kingdoms in his hand, a union that broke again after king Solomon's death. In modern language this could be described as a personal union of two kingdoms. Anyway, I don't think that starting the Kingdom of Judah with Rehoboam is accurate nor is it correct that Rehoboam ever was king of Israel. Thoughts? Str1977 23:26, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

• No. Israel had two dynasties. Saul was the first. Saul was considered king. Why is Rehoboam never thought to be king? Sorry, I'm confused. Falphin 02:51, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
• Oh, I see what you're saying. I believe the arguement goes that the Kingdom of Israel is the sucessor state to the first Kingdom of Israel. Falphin 02:52, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Let me explain:

• First, there was the kingdom of Israel (meaning the twelve tribes) under King Saul.
• Even during his reign, David was secretly annointed, but we can pass over this here.
• When Saul died, the Kingdom of Israel remained, but in a shattered state. Many parts were occupied by the Philistines. Next to the Jordan, followers of Saul made his son Ishbaal king of Israel - claiming the twelve tribes but ruling only some in fact.
• At the same time, the tribe of Juda made David their king. IMHO, this is the beginning of the kingdom of Juda.
• Ishbaal of Israel was killed and his followers submitted to David, who also defeated the Philistines, uniting the whole country under one ruler. But, to anachronistically use modern political terms, this was a "personal union" of the two kingdoms of Israel and Juda.
• This union prevailed under David and his son Solomon, though it was almost split by the revolt of Sheba (2 Sam 20).
• After Solomon's death, his son Rehoboam became King of Judah by heritage (2 Kings 11,43) and met with the Israelites at Shechem to be installed as King of Israel (2 Kings 12). But this harsh behaviour caused the Israelites to withdraw and elect their own king.

So we have two kingdoms - Israel starting with Saul, Judah with David - united for some time under David and Solomon, but parting ways after Solomon's death. Str1977 09:24, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

- I think that it was all one country with one ruler (with some minor revolts that didn't last long) untill after solomons death.

• I don't understand why these Articles do not point out that it was not the people that elected a King over Israel, but according to the Scriptures Almighty God had a Prophet appoint the King over Israel dividing Israel and Judah, because of Salomon's transgression against Almighty God. The Scriptures even rebuke them that tr1ed to stop Ten Tribes from being given unto Ephraim saying that this also ids of God.

Josepr R Loegering 18:48, 1 August 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by JosephLoegering (talk • contribs)

Image

The image seems to be squishing the chart. I tried to move it around without success; if anyone knows how to move it to accomodate the chart better...--Rob117 05:52, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. I moved it a couple of paragraphs higher. Please see if this works. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 06:03, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Table

Can someone in the know fix the lines of the table that are different? I tried to but I have no clue how to do it. Str1977 15:02, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Map may need fixing

The current map, labeled as c.830 BC, seems to be somewhat inaccurate for that period- by 830 BC, Israel's transjordanian territories had been given over to Hazael of Damascus, and Israel was limited to cisjordan. The Assyrian Empire proper did not yet border Damascus, although they did besiege Damascus, unsuccessfully, in 838; Assyria's expansion into the Levant was gradual, with waxing and waning, and was done mostly through vassal treaties- direct annezation did not become the rule until the time of Tiglath-pileser III. By 830, after the Assyrian threat had passed, Damascus under Hazael dominated the entire Levant. Assyrian reach did not come this far south again until the reign of Adad-nirari III, who captured Damascus in 796 (imposing tribute, but not annexing it). If the intention is to show Israel a map of Israel under the Omrides, which the map's territory seems to match, it should be labeled as c.850 BC and Edom should be annexed to Judah.--Rob117 19:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Bible as source?

"According to the Hebrew Bible..." Clearly the Bible is full of myths and propaganda and in itself not a valid source for historical accuracy. Perhaps there should be a separate paragraph for what the Bible says about Judah, similar to how other topics have a paragraph about references in popular culture.--Tchoutoye 12:00, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

In the first place, while most historians recognize that the Deuteronomic History (i.e., the Book of Kings) is full of myths and propaganda, they also have generally felt that it also contains reliable historical information, and many have been fairly confident that they can decipher which parts are reliable history, and which parts are later myth. Furthermore, many of the prophetic books are actually considered to be at least partially written during the life of the Kingdom of Judah. If you think that the presence of myths and propaganda in a source makes it "not a valid source" for historical inquiry, then we would have to exclude just about the entirety of ancient historical writing, and conclude that we know nothing about ancient or medieval history at all. But, of course, you don't actually think that, you just dislike the Bible. The Bible is basically our only major source on the Kingdom of Judah, and most historians have been interested in figuring out what in it can be trusted, and what cannot. Your suggestion is ridiculous, in that I can't imagine what the "Main" part of the article would consist of if you took out material derived from the Bible. john k 12:18, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

This artical doesn't meet the Misplaced Pages standards for neutrality, verifiability and it does not quote accepted sources. I've added the appropriate tags. Hopefully someone can rewrite the whole artical and present the material in a more appropriate manner. 76.176.114.213 00:41, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I think there should be separated articles on the history of Judah (and Israel) as described in the Bible, and the history as "described" by archeological evidences. For the latter everyone just read The Bible unearthed by I. Finkelstein & N.A. Silberman. They are - as far as it makes sense - critical towards the history written in the Bible, based on evidences partially discovered by themselves (and to answer John K: yes, there are many clear evidences, that show, that the Bible is not always a valid source for history! It gives a very useful background for archeological research though), but again they point out cleary - and so do I - that the Bible isn't a history book at all!! It is an excellent work of literature (formally), and for two major religions The Source (spiritually) containing some historical information as well. We just have to know what to use it for (and how)!

all you who say the tanakh is not a credible source  : you're whole claim is childish , the jewish tanakh books are the only books from the ancient times which represent a nation which says the complete truth about even the most key people in its history , most respected and most loved people in their history, the tanakh is not "covering up" for no one , and to be honest , its the only ancient source who does so it seems none of you would ever claim such things on The assyrian and egyptian sources which are full of mistakes , blunt lies and glorification of their kings (which usually dont deserve it)

"For the latter everyone just read The Bible unearthed by I. Finkelstein etc "

oh , you mean the same i.finkelstien who decleared that the V||| layer in meggido is from the middle of the 14 century bc (against evidence proving its cannot be erlier then the end of the 14 century bc according to archeaological work using Mycenaean ceramic found in the layer, And a carbon 14 test) just so it would correspond to the historic knowlege reflected through the amarna letters. that finkelstein ? he's a joke , and that book is not founded, and is already contradicted by hundred of articles and books which proved how baseless are the claims of that pathetic book.

oh and btw - judah in the first temple period was usually much bigger then that map shows(try including edom which was most of the time a a subjact of judah) message by hebraic —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hebraic (talk • contribs) 20:41, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Hebraic, your argument shows extreme bias. In order to meet Misplaced Pages's quality standards, religious documents cannot be used as primary sources. Textual criticism and archaeology have established a conflicting picture of of historic Israel and Judah than what is offered in the bible, and have salient reasons to back that picture up. This material should be presented. I will flag the article until the issue is resolved. Let us please rework the article to meet Misplaced Pages's guidelines. entropyandvodka (talk — Preceding undated comment added 04:44, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

"God's Worshipper's Kingdom"

The kingdom is named after the tribe Judah, which does not mean 'God's Worshipper', but is a name. The name originally meant 'Thank God'. I dont understand the translation.

No it means Thank Yahweh. "Thank God" would be Eldah! 203.59.11.115 14:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Judah is this the house of David also ? Judahs child (talk) 06:53, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Timeline

If the Bible is the main source of information, the article needs more explanation of where the dates are derived from. I assume it is something more intelligent than the argument which leads some Christians to believe that the Earth and Universe are 6000 years old, but what is it in each case? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.7.20.133 (talk) 01:43, 7 January 2007 (UTC).

First off, Biblical dates after the founding of the Israelite monarchy (ca. 1000 B.C.) are far more definite and least partially historically founded than Biblical dating references to periods before the founding of the Israelite monarchy. The Biblical information about the sequence and lengths of individual reigns is certainly used (since information on these matters is simply not available anywhere else), but great efforts are also made to synchronize with external chronologies wherever possible. Three different scholarly schemes are tabulated right in the table on the article page. AnonMoos 08:37, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

There is no independent non-Biblical confirmation of any Biblical date before the reign of Ahab. So say that dates after the founding of the monarchy before that date is factually incorrect. 203.59.11.115 14:14, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Incorrect Scriptural Citation

The main article references Joshua 18 which far predates post-Solomonic Israel. The first citation for Jerusalem being the capital of Southern Kingdom is most likely in 1 Kings 12 instead. Additionally, 2 Samuel 5:6-9 describes David conquering Jerusalem and making it his capital (Hebron served as his capital during the years he reigned over Judah alone).

Joshua 18:28 (NIV) reads "Zelah, Haeleph, the Jebusite city (that is, Jerusalem), Gibeah and Kiriath—fourteen towns and their villages. This was the inheritance of Benjamin for its clans." While this obviously mentions Jerusalem, it does not lay it out as the capital of the Kingdom of Judah.

The division of the Unified Kingdom occurs in 1 Kings 12, with Rehoboam driving off the Northern Kingdom (Israel) with his harsh demands.

Zamoose 12:06, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

It's all a bunch of BS anyways Zamoose, so why be bothered about minutea? The Fifth Column (talk) 08:42, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

New lead

I've revised the lead quite radically ("edit boldly"). There were two problems with the existing lead: First, it was far too long - a lead has to be a brief guide to the subject, and the old one was far from brief; second, it was not really no more than a summary of the bible, which is not a reliable historical source. I recognise that the new lead has no citations - this is a fault, and perhaps I should supply some. PiCo (talk) 02:24, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Besides that. The introduction, as it currently stands, places more focus on the subsequent fate of the area rather than the Kingdom itself. Two centuries of archaelogical research and theories on this minor state are not even mentioned. Dimadick (talk) 22:47, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

You're right. I've cut it back and it now deals with the birth and death of Judah as known from archaeology. It does need to be expanded, because more than this is known. PiCo (talk) 00:29, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Serious lack of photos and illustrations in the article

please do something about it, thanks.

This article is outdated

A serious deficiency in this entry: The author assumes that the Kingdom of Judah existed no earlier than the 9th century BCE, and the first Judean king he finds in external sources is Hezekiah. This claim is 16 years out of date. The Tel Dan Inscription, written by an Aramean king, Hazael II, mentions Ahaziah, King of Judah and contemporary of Jehoram, King of Israel, both of whom Hazael claims to have defeated and killed in battle - an event that occurred in the mid-9th century BCE. Moreover, he entitles Ahaziah as king of "the House of David", his term for the Kingdom of Judah. This is a typical usage of that period - naming the kingdom for the founder of the ruling dynasty. Similarly, Amos calls Aram Damascus "the House of Hazael", and Assyriaqn inscriptions of the period entitle Israel "bit Humri" - "the House of Omri". What this meaqns is that the ruling dynasty of Judah was founded by King David, and that this occurred at some time before King Ahaziah. Thus, there is no reason why we should not accept the list of Judean kings presented in Kings as historical, and date the founding of the dynasty back to the 10th century BCE (the regnal years of David and Solomon appear to be typological (40 years apiece), which is why I refrain from writing "early 10th century"). Why should anyone invent these kings? To fill in the gap between David and Ahaziah? Unacceptable. The most one can say is that not all words and deeds attributed to them by the Deuteronimistic redactor of Kings are historical. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yonsaf (talk • contribs) 08:25, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

We need a reliable source to make the sort of changes you suggest. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 08:46, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Note, however, that the current sources are dated 2007 and 2011 (the last one by the media, and not as important). So it would be nearly impossible to present something discovered 16 years ago that would somehow contradict these reports. An editor would have to somehow demonstrate that these (newer) supposed experts had "overlooked" these "Ahaziah" discoveries made years before. There appears to be a gap here between an initial report made 16 years ago and subsequent analysis by other experts which may have placed the older findings into eclipse. It would be nice to demonstrate otherwise. I hope you are successful. Student7 (talk) 17:15, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Archeology

It is possible that we will need a "minimalist" vs "maximalist" article or statement in every article on pre-Alexandrian Israel/Judah/Jerusalem. Inserting it in one article alone seems insufficient, IMO. Student7 (talk) 01:42, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

MAP

Here is a nice map for you guys if you find a place for it.

Gsonnenf (talk) 11:05, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I find it hard to read. Too fussy and too colored. Even when magnified, but thanks for looking.

Also, have we ever found archeological evidence of the "ten northern tribes." Student7 (talk) 13:30, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

The Thirteen Tribes of Israel

In the order of birth the twelve sons of Jacob are Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph and Benjamin, and they become the ancestors of thirteen tribes, because Joseph has two sons, Mannasseh and Ephraim which become two tribes, leaving one Tribe upon the shepherd stone not numbered among the twelve tribes.

Genesis Chapter 35 Verses 22 to 26 Genesis Chapter 48 Verses 5 Genesis Chapter 49 Verse 24

During the days of Moses and shortly thereafter, the tribe of Levi stood upon the shepherd stone, not being numbered among the twelve numbered Tribes, and Levi was given no inheritance in the Promised Land, so that all Levi dwelt among the twelve numbered Tribes, as the only Priesthood in Israel, until the days of Samuel of the Tribe of Ephraim, which was given to Ephraim because the sons of Joseph obtained the birthright.

Number Chapter 1 1 Chronicles Chapter 5 Verses 1-2

The Levitical High Priest Eli, had sinned against Yahweh, and Samuel was raised up as a new High Priest placing the Tribe of Ephraim not numbered among the twelve Tribes, as a new Priesthood upon the shepherd stone unto this day, even though the Levitical Priesthood continues.

1 Samuel Chapters 1 to 3

Saul of the Tribe of Benjamin was anointed as King of Israel, but he sinned against Yahweh, and David of the Tribe of Judah was anointed as King in his place.

1 Samuel Chapter 9 1 Samuel Chapter 16

David’s son Solomon forsook Yahweh because of the influence of evil women, and even failed to mention the name Yahweh in his writings of Ecclesiastics and the Song of Solomon, (the only two scrolls of the twenty four scrolls of the Tanakh besides Ester, that do not contain the name Yahweh,) so in Solomon’s son’s days, the Kingdom was divided.

1 Kings Chapter 11 verse 4

The Tribe of Benjamin was given to the house of David and the Tribe of Judah as the southern Kingdom, the Kingdom of Judah made of just two Tribes, and ten Tribes including Levi were given unto the Tribe of Ephraim as the northern Kingdom Israel, leaving Ephraim not numbered among the twelve Tribes. JosephLoegering (talk) 18:44, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Also, in both the map above and this contribution, 12-13 tribes are discussed. Yet the article is about the Kingdom of Judah, the 2-3 southern tribes. How would any of this be used to improve this article? Student7 (talk) 13:34, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Reorganization of Headings?

I noticed that most of the article is under the heading "Biblical Narrative." However, the "Clash of Empires" and "Destruction and dispersion" subheadings appear to be more based on archaeology and research than on the biblical narrative. For example:

Necho then joined forces with the Assyrian Ashur-uballit II and together they crossed the Euphrates and lay siege to Harran. The combined forces failed to capture the city, and Necho retreated back to northern Syria. The event also marked the disintegration of the Assyrian Empire.

Although no citation is given, this assertion appears to be based on extra-biblical authority. So I'm wondering if these sections really belong under the "Biblical Narrative" umbrella, or if perhaps they can be combined with the "Archaeological Record" section for a complete discussion of scientific/historical inquiry into the actual history of the Kingdom of Judah.--BenEsq (talk) 04:33, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi, I agree that material that isn't sourced from biblical texts belongs outside the biblical-narrative section. However, IMO to move them there we'll need the extra-biblical sources. --Dailycare (talk) 20:06, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Confused

It's not 100% clear: is this whole history based entirely on the Biblical record? If so< what about the historians side?.45Colt 08:25, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

There is the "Archaeological record" section with input from historians. There isn't much such input though, so most of the material is biblical. --Dailycare (talk) 20:04, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Definitely confused. I've been trying to look up the history of ancient Judea, but all the articles fall into two irreconcilable camps. One says that Judah "emerged" (whatever that means) around 800 BCE and that Hezekiah was the first "known" king. The other talks about a King David who established a dynasty nearly a century earlier and was even the subject of a biography, the "Court History of David". How do historians reconcile this? Do they consider David a minor ruler whose dynasty didn't become important until Hezekiah's time? Is it possible that the archeological record begins with Hezekiah simply because the Assyrian invasion destroyed earlier artifacts? I wish I had more information. 73.137.170.88 (talk) 22:54, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

It's a problem with other articles too, where related articles disagree. The Court History of David doesn't exist and may never have existed. Doug Weller (talk) 08:52, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Not sure I should trust that article. See for instance this. Doug Weller (talk) 19:31, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Very Inaccurate and Biased Introduction

To say that Judah begun in the 9th (or even 8th!) century BC is to completely disregard the archaeological evidence. The wars between Asa and Baasha (e.g. Aharoni and Avi-Yonah, MacMillan Bible Atlas) in the early 9th century BC already guarantee that the kingdom existed in the 10th century BC, in my very honest opinion. The Tel Dan and other inscriptions also support the existence of King David, as does the rapid urbanization of Palestine in the late 11th/early 10th centuries BCE (A. Mazar, Archaeology of the Land of the Bible pp.374-5). Cornelius (talk) 01:04, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

You'll need sources specifically dating an earlier Judah. Doug Weller talk 06:34, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

@Doug Weller: Look at Renassault/Cornelius's other contributions over the last four years -- he/she appears to just be posting his/her personal opinions regarding various ancient near-eastern archaeological topics on article talk pages, without attempting to actually improve article content. Even the above, which claims to be about a "biased introduction" (an apparent misunderstanding that the lead is supposed to be something other than a summary of the body, mind you), is bizarre: "the existence of King David" is not touched on one way or the other at any point in this article. The user appears to be posting random opinions about biblical minimalist archaeology in whatever forum they can find. This is a long-term, but very minor, problem, and I am not entirely sure how it should be dealt with, as in all likelihood the account will be inactive until about a year after the above post... Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:35, 6 July 2016 (UTC) (edited 00:41, 6 July 2016 (UTC))

Repinging User:Doug Weller in case they click the notification that I mentioned them and only read the initial diff rather than my (important) edit to my own post. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:41, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

@Hijiri88: as the account hasn't been active since March there really isn't anything to do here. I don't see any warnings on their talk page either. You might want to put one there. I agree they seem more interested in using the talk pages as forums for their opinion than editing. Doug Weller talk 10:29, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Kingdom of Judah. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Corrected formatting/usage for http://news.aol.com/article/israeli-archaeologists-find-ancient-text/233027?icid=100214839x1212506023x1200749390

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

Y An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—_{Talk to my owner:Online} 00:35, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Archaeology

This article needs to clearly differentiate mainstream archaeological methodology from biblical archaeology, the latter of which tries to make the historical record fit religious beliefs. It's confusing when someone is trying to figure out what material evidence exists for the Kingdom of Judah, and finds nothing but the Bible. Jan sewi (talk) 10:27, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

There is a section on actual archaeological finds relating to Judah in the article. If you have good sources, this section could be expanded. --Dailycare (talk) 08:55, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Correcting date of formation

I'm very confused how we use the sources and dates we use for the formation of Judah.

Firstly, the sources. The first source, used to cite a figure of the 9th century BCE, comes from Israel in Transition: From Late Bronze II to Iron IIa (c. 1250–850 B.C.E.), pages 225 & 226, found here.

The first source does indeed make use of the figure of 9th century BCE, but not for the formation of the independent kingdom. It mentions that there are signs of early activity in the 10th century BCE, with certain cities in Judah showing signs of inhabitance during Iron Age IIA. However, it makes no use of this date to say that Judah was formed during this period, just because activity is observed at a time period doesn't mean the kingdom was formed. That's like saying the Kingdom of Samaria was founded in the 9000s BCE because that's when Jericho showed the first signs of human life.

The second source, Jerusalem in Bible and Archaeology: The First Temple Period, page 149, found here, has the exact same problem.

It presents evidence showing that there was some sort of human activity in the area of Hebron and some others - however, while it certainly mentions Judah, it makes a point that it these signs of human activity seem to be more of a disproof for the existence of an established Kingdom of Judah than a support:

"If Judah would have been a well integrated region in Iron Age I and IIA, one would expect that the line of the ranked sites would have been straight. One does not observe a straight line in either the Iron Age I or IIA."

Finally, the third source, used to support of a date of the 8th century BCE, The Last Labayu: King Saul and the Expansion of the First North Israelite Territorial Entity", page 171, found here.

The source doesn't even mention the 8th century BCE! It barely even mentions Judah! It mentions Solomon, but almost nothing else on the page cited!

Finally, and most glaring, the date for the independence of the northern kingdom is 930 BCE. How would Judah, the independent kingdom of Judah, that became independent when Samaria broke away, be founded during a time centuries before Samaria broke away, i.e. centuries before "the Kingdom of Judah" could actually exist, i.e. when there was no other independent Israeli kingdom??? Even without the sources provided, it makes. No. Sense.

BedrockPerson (talk) 14:34, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 4 external links on Kingdom of Judah. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Corrected formatting/usage for http://scholar.cc.emory.edu/scripts/ASOR/BA/Borowski.html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080528230034/http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/JHS/Articles/article_47.htm to http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/JHS/Articles/article_47.htm
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080528230034/http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/JHS/Articles/article_47.htm to http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/JHS/Articles/article_47.htm
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110717120935/http://www.tyndalehouse.com/tynbul/library/TynBull_2004_55_2_01_Pitkanen_EthnicityIsraelSettlement.pdf to http://www.tyndalehouse.com/tynbul/library/TynBull_2004_55_2_01_Pitkanen_EthnicityIsraelSettlement.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 09:24, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Birth and death of minimalism

If minimalism ever was a single theory/POV, the mainstream is now minimalist:

Apart from the well-funded (and fundamentalist) “biblical archaeologists,” we are in fact nearly all “minimalists” now.

— Philip Davies, Beyond Labels: What Comes Next?

Quoted by Tgeorgescu (talk) 14:25, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Highly urbanized 10th century Judah

Highly urbanized? Coogan, Michael (2010). "4. Thou Shalt Not: Forbidden Sexual Relationships in the Bible". God and Sex. What the Bible Really Says (1st ed.). New York, Boston: Twelve. Hachette Book Group. p. 105. ISBN 978-0-446-54525-9. Retrieved 5 May 2011. Jerusalem was no exception, except that it was barely a city—by our standards, just a village. In David's time, its population was only a few thousand, who lived on about a dozen acres, roughly equal to two blocks in Midtown Manhattan. Tgeorgescu (talk) 14:40, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

"Biblical Judah" and "Historical Judah"

The article probably needs to be divided into two sections, "Biblical Judah" (the story of the Book of Kings) and "Historical Judah" (the story from archaeology).PiCo (talk) 11:22, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

They are not entirely contradictory, at least for the 7th and 6th century BCE narratives. Go ahead, however. The article fails to distinguish between fact and fiction, and it could use more sources. Dimadick (talk) 11:30, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Irrelevant source

One of the sources cited does not seem to be about the Kingdom of Judah at all.:

• "an important group of archaeologists and biblical scholars formed the view that in reality the kingdom of David and Solomon bore little resemblance to the biblical portrait of an extensive, powerful, united monarchy. This view derives primarily from the fact that no 10th century BCE archaeological finds exist that could corroborate claims of the existence of a magnificent biblical kingdom extending from Be'er Sheva in the south to Dan in the north."

The source is talking about the apparent lackk of historicity for the Kingdom of Israel (united monarchy), which is associated with legendary monarchs David and Solomon. Neither of them is a King of Judah.

Also the quote mentions the findings concerning the 10th century BC. Yet the article's text extrapolates that the situation remained unchanged to the 8th century BC. That is not stated in the cited source. Dimadick (talk) 11:40, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Book of Helaman?

The articles says that probably one of Zedekiah's sons survive. The source for this, is the so called Book of Helaman. The book of Helaman, however, is part of the Book if Mormon, and can't be a source. Even though the Bible is a reliable source used with caution, because is an ancient text, the book of Mormon isn't and must be not used at all. If another source, epigraphical or textual, mentions that probably one of Zedekiah's sons remained alive, it's fine. Now the sentence is unfounded and must be erased. Gustavo Rubén (talk) 09:49, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

LMLK Research website as a source for biblical archaeology - run by a Creationist with a B.Sc.

See WP:RSN#LMLK Research website as a source for biblical archaeology - run by a Creationist with a B.Sc.. @Greyshark09: you'll want to participate I think. Doug Weller talk 14:55, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

This article is both highly inaccurate and highly biased

Within the Archeological section, the author makes a broad statement, "The legendary history of David and Solomon in the 10th century BCE tells little about the origins of Judah." This is footnoted as "(5) Katz). For the sake of the following point, I've interpreted "the legendary history of David and Solomon" to mean the biblical account. I believe this was the Wiki article author's meaning. I've read much of katz' book and conclude that the author of this Wiki page misunderstands or misstates Katz' conclusions. Katz says, in his opening paragraphs, ".. the kind of unqualified animosity toward the Jewish "religion of the law" (and toward all other forms of institutionalized religion) that emerged with Wellhausen and many others of his time and that, to some extent, continues even in the present must be renounced, of course. " Wellhauser was one of the first (1883 in his most famous work, "Prolegomena zur Geschichte Israels" scholars to doubt the dating of David's kingdom. According to Misplaced Pages's article on Wellhauser, " It [Wellhausen's "Prolegomena" argues that the Torah (or Pentateuch) had its origins in a redaction of four originally-independent texts dating from several centuries after the time of Moses, their traditional author." Thus, Katz' entire book is written in refutation of this theory and can hardly be used as a footnote to support a later Davidic kingdom. Katz' book has an entire third of the book dedicated to the use of the Bible's exhaustive details concerning the 'origins of Judah'. Thus, the conclusion, along with the fallacious use of footnoted documentation, stating, "The legendary history of David and Solomon in the 10th century BCE tells little about the origins of Judah" must be removed- or rewritten to reflect the footnoted authors accurately.

This Wiki author also states, "There is no archaeological evidence of an extensive, powerful Kingdom of Judah before the late 8th century BCE; Nimrud Tablet K.3751, dated c. 733 BCE, is the earliest known record of the name Judah (written in Assyrian cuneiform as Yaudaya or KUR.ia-ú-da-a-a). Footnote (10) is a source that speaks only of the first written (Cuneiform) mention of the kingdom. Of course, logically, many archeological events took place and existed before they were written about. The advent of written knowledge does not necessitate the advent of all that has ever existed. Hence, the debatable fact that the Davidic kingdom was not mentioned before the written evidence does not necessitate that the Davidic 10th century kingdom didn't exist beforehand. The footnote implies a scholarly source for this incredible conclusion and should be removed. Either that or the conclusion needs to be removed/rewritten.

The second part of his statement, "Prior to this the kingdom was no more than a small tribal entity which was limited to Jerusalem and its immediate surroundings. is footnoted as "Shtull-Trauring, Asaf (6 May 2011). "The keys to the Kingdom". Haaretz."). The footnote implies that the source document supports the Wiki author's statements but it does not. Indeed, the quote used in the footnote is highly misrepresentative of the source article's intent. The Haartz article was simply stating the opposing view, which Professor Garfinkel's archeological dig has DISPROVED. The following paragraph, from the same Haartz article, immediately follows the isolated quote provided by this Wiki author:

"Against the ruins, which have overlooked the verdant valley below for the past 3,000 years, Garfinkel speaks with a great rush of words. According to him, this site, which he has been excavating for the past four years, constitutes the definitive proof for the existence of a city that was part of the Kingdom of David in the 10th century BCE.....According to Garfinkel, the kingdom that existed here in the 10th century BCE was something between the two versions: not tiny, but also not as large as the biblical account would suggest. It comprised at least three major cities: Jerusalem, Hebron and the settlement he is excavating. Even such a scale, he emphasizes, is larger than the humble village evoked by the minimalist archaeologists. At the same time, other archaeologists are recruiting Khirbet Qeiyafa in support of the claims for a large united kingdom." The article outlines Garfinkel's archeological finds that prove a 10th century Davidic kingdom. Thus, the use of the Haartz article to support the statement, "Prior to this the kingdom was no more than a small tribal entity which was limited to Jerusalem and its immediate surroundings" is entirely inaccurate. The source contradicts this statement. The statement should either be removed from this Wiki article- or the source. It should probably just be rewritten to provide a more accurate, neutral treatment of the archeological facts. Please see the following link: https://www.haaretz.com/1.5008984 to read the source article yourself.

The author of this article also uses (5 Mazar, Amihai. "Archaeology and the Biblical Narrative: The Case of the United Monarchy". ) to imply that a 10th century Jerusalem did not exist. He incorrectly states, "In the 10th and early 9th centuries BCE, the territory of Judah appears to have been sparsely populated, limited to small rural settlements, most of them unfortified. Jerusalem, the kingdom's capital, likely did not emerge as a significant administrative center until the end of the 8th century; before this the archaeological evidence suggests its population was too small to sustain a viable kingdom." I've read Mazar's paper and have concluded that the author of this Wiki article misunderstood Mazar's entire intent as well as the entire body of evidence presented in his scholarly paper. His intent was to prove the existence of King David's kingdom in the 10th century, not to dispute it. Here is just one of Mazar's introductory conclusions: "The date of the transition from Iron I to Iron IIA is important fordefining the material culture of the alleged time of the United Monarchy in the 10th century BCE (based on inner biblical chronology). The results of radiocarbon dates relating to this transition can be interpreted in various ways: while Sharon et. al. insist on dating the transition to ca. 900 BCE, Finkelstein,who since 1996 dated the transition to Shoshenq’s time, now corrected his view (at least in relation to the end of Megiddo VIA) and claims an earlier date in the 10th century BCE for that violent destruction, which marks the end of the Iron Age I at Megiddo. Utilizing the data published by Sharon et al., Bronk Ramsey and myself calculated that the transition must have occurred during the first half of the 10th century BCE, which would fit with Finkelstein’s recent view. This enables us to determine the alleged date of the archaeological evidence related to the United Monarchy to the transition of Iron I/IIA and to the early part of Iron IIA."

Indeed, this Wiki author says, "Amihai Mazar contends that if the Iron I/Iron IIa dating of administrative structures in the City of David are correct, (as he believes) "Jerusalem was a rather small town with a mighty citadel, which could have been a center of a substantial regional polity."" HOWEVER, Mazar goes on to CONTRADICT this conclusion.

Read Mazar's introductory statements on page 30, "Archaeology and the Biblical Narrative:The Case of the United Monarchy" and his "Summary of My Previous Views" on page 31 to understand Mazar's full intent. Thus, the footnote use of Mazar's paper is fallacious and should be rewritten. see https://www.academia.edu/2503754/Archaeology_and_the_Biblical_Narrative_the_Case_of_the_United_Monarchy.2010._0 to read for yourselves.

The author of this Wiki article also wrote, "The oldest part of Jerusalem and its original urban core is the City of David, which does not show evidence of significant Israelite residential activity until the 9th century. " and uses the, "Biblical History and Israel S Past: The Changing Study of the Bible and History" by Megan Bishop Moore, Brad E. Kelle as his footnoted source. Again, his use is fallacious. Ms. Moore is not making a definitive statement concerning the historicity of a thriving Judean society in the 10th century BC. Instead, her book is merely presenting ALL the major archeologists and their conclusions, over time, concerning the historicity of King David's kingdom. She also references the prominent archeologists Faust (2000) and Finkelstein (1996), both of whom have presented scholarly works in favor of the 10th century kingdom of David. Yet, this viewpoint is not presented with this footnote. Therefore, the use of the footnote to promote a single, controversial idea is misleading to the public. Ms. Moore is merely shining a light on all the modern views concerning this very important time in history. Thus, the footnote should either be removed of this article needs revision in order to portray the true state of archeological finds. the following links show a search for Faust and Finkelstein from her book: (https://books.google.com/books?id=Qjkz_8EMoaUC&pg=PA19#v=snippet&q=Faust%20&f=false AND https://books.google.com/books?id=Qjkz_8EMoaUC&pg=PA302#v=onepage&q=Finkelstein&f=false).

This Wiki author fails to provide a source for the following statement: "On account of the apparent lack of settlement activity in the 10th century BCE, Israel Finkelstein argues that Jerusalem in that century was a small country village in the Judean hills, not a national capital, and Ussishkin argues that the city was entirely uninhabited. " While it is true that Finkelstein has been one of the fiercest proponents of an 8th or 9th century Davidic kingdom, he has since changed his mind. In 2011, at a Society of Biblical Literature Meeting, Finkelstein revised his dates for Iron Age I to Iron Age II. This was reported by the ASSOCIATES FOR BIBLICAL RESEARCH: https://biblearchaeology.org/research/contemporary-issues/3768-israel-finkelstein-revises-his-dating-is-the-indefatigable-minimalist-slipping?highlight=WyJmaW5rZWxzdGVpbiIsImZpbmtlbHN0ZWluJ3MiXQ== . Here is the excerpt:

'Two afternoon sessions at the Society of Biblical Literature Meeting were devoted to Archaeology and Text, and in particular to the dating problems associated with the transition from Iron Age I to Iron Age II. In these sessions Ayelet Gilboa spoke on Tel Dor, Amihai Mazar on Tel Rehov, Aren Maeir on Tell es-Safi, Israel Finkelstein on Megiddo, and David Ussishkin on Jezreel.

During his presentation, Israel Finkelstein revised his dating, and stated that he was now dating the transition from Iron Age I to IIA to about 950 BC. This was momentous. Based on their experiences in the Philistine areas and sites such as Lachish, Ussishkin and Finkelstein have been dating the start of Iron Age II to 920-900 BC and they, along with many others, have used this dating to argue that David and Solomon did not exist. Archaeologists working elsewhere in the southern Levant have found the comparatively short period of Iron Age II problematic because it was difficult to compress their Iron Age II levels into it. "

It is also mentioned in one of this Wiki article author's own sources, Mazar's paper. (this direct reference is quoted above). This recent re-dating by Finkelstein should be mentioned in this article as it has a direct impact on the 10th century Davidic kingdom, especially as he has been the predominant opposition to such.

Under the section called, "Partition of United Israelite Monarchy", this article also states, "The major theme of the Hebrew Bible's narrative is the loyalty of Judah, and especially its kings, to Yahweh, which it states is the God of Israel. Accordingly, all the kings of Israel and many of the kings of Judah were "bad", which in terms of Biblical narrative means that they failed to enforce monotheism. Of the "good" kings, Hezekiah (727–698 BCE) is noted for his efforts at stamping out idolatry (in this case, the worship of Baal and Asherah, among other traditional Near Eastern divinities), but his successors, Manasseh of Judah (698–642 BCE) and Amon (642–640 BCE), revived idolatry, drawing down on the kingdom the anger of Yahweh. King Josiah (640–609 BCE) returned to the worship of Yahweh alone, but his efforts were too late and Israel's unfaithfulness caused God to permit the kingdom's destruction by the Neo-Babylonian Empire in the Siege of Jerusalem (587 BCE)." This text is highly prejudicial for several reasons.

The assertion, "The major theme of the Hebrew Bible's narrative is the loyalty of Judah, and especially its kings to Yahweh, which it states is the God of Israel. The use of the term, "Hebrew Bible" is misleading as the Christian Bible also includes the same texts. Perhaps the use of the word, "bible' would be sufficient- or a more accurate statement of facts. No source is given that supports the idea that THE major theme of the Hebrew Bible is the loyalty of Judah. It can be argued that the major theme of the Hebrew Bible is God's love or any number of other narratives. There are many major themes in the Hebrew Bible/ Christian Bible. Perhaps it should say, "A major theme" instead of "The major theme".

It uses quotation marks for 'good' and 'bad' kings of Judah, implying sarcasm and disdain. They should be removed to avoid prejudice. Furthermore, it is inaccurate to say that the biblical God considers anyone, let alone a king, to be 'good'. The Hebrew Bible states, "Ecclesiastes 7:20 New International Version (NIV) 20 Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins.." It also states in Psalm 53: 3 "Everyone has turned away, all have become corrupt;

   there is no one who does good,
   not even one., " 

The Christian Bible also includes verses from Mark 10 and Luke 18 which relate Jesus' statement: "“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone." which directly reflects these Old Testament verses. As the Bible does not connote the characteristic of 'good' to any human being, it is false to make that claim in this Wiki article.

The article states, "many of the kings of Judah were "bad", which in terms of Biblical narrative means that they failed to enforce monotheism." It also heavily implies that 'stamping out', "the worship of Baal and Asherah, among other traditional Near Eastern divinities" is what makes a biblical king, 'good'. The reference to 'other traditional Near Eastern divinities" is highly prejudicial. It implies that the worship of the biblical God is about 'stamping out' modern people of other faiths. Today's major faith beliefs were not the same as the ancient religions. The Hebrew Bible specifically mentions child sacrifice, massive sexual orgies, senseless drunkenness on the streets, rape, incest and other practices attributed to the ancient religions. None of these are included in today's major faith beliefs. The biblical God takes great exceptions of these practices. Furthermore, the statement 'stamping out ' other 'Near Eastern religions' implies that God expected the Israelites to go out of their kingdom to kill other of different faiths. Not true. The God of the Bible insisted on only the Israelites, his People, to worship him. He either condemned or praised various kings based on their ability to confront idolatry in Israel. This did not include the murder of these adherents. It did include the destruction of their temples in Israel, however. God also took issue with the fact that many (most) of the ancient Israeli kings, and/or their wives, practiced idolatry themselves. God expected obedience from his own people because they believed in his existence and understood all that he had done for them. He didn't expect worship from those who literally did not believe in him- or know him. He detested those who knew who he was and still worshipped the idols they had created instead. There is a heavy implication in the Bible that the reason these kings and their people wanted these idolatrous gods was specifically to practice the sex, drunkenness, lack of morality, etc inherent in them. There is no mention of God killing the Israelites because they didn't know who he was. Nor did the biblical God call on Israel to murder adherents to any other faith for that reason alone. Thus, these statements must be removed from this Wiki article.

It states, "King Josiah (640–609 BCE) returned to the worship of Yahweh alone, but his efforts were too late and Israel's unfaithfulness caused God to permit the kingdom's destruction by the Neo-Babylonian Empire in the Siege of Jerusalem", implying that God wasn't satisfied with Josiah's efforts and cruelly 'permitted' the destruction of the kingdom via the Babylonians. Again, this portion of the article is unsourced. The Bible states that God was in fact pleased with King Josiah and delayed Israel's punishment until Josiah died:

" Josiah was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned thirty and one years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Jedidah, the daughter of Adaiah of Boscath.2 And he did that which was right in the sight of the Lord, and walked in all the way of David his father, and turned not aside to the right hand or to the left." 2 Kings 22 It also says, "16 ‘This is what the Lord says: I am going to bring disaster on this place and its people, according to everything written in the book the king of Judah has read. 17 Because they have forsaken me and burned incense to other gods and aroused my anger by all the idols their hands have made, my anger will burn against this place and will not be quenched.’ 18 Tell the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of the Lord, ‘This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says concerning the words you heard: 19 Because your heart was responsive and you humbled yourself before the Lord when you heard what I have spoken against this place and its people—that they would become a curse and be laid waste—and because you tore your robes and wept in my presence, I also have heard you, declares the Lord. 20 Therefore I will gather you to your ancestors, and you will be buried in peace. Your eyes will not see all the disaster I am going to bring on this place.’

This shows that God approved of King Josiah and didn't bring his anger against Israel until after Josiah's death. The implication that Josiah's efforts 'were too late' and that this was the reason for the destruction of Israel is not biblically accurate. These verses show that it is an accumulation of hundreds of years of violent, immoral idolatry that caused God to lose patience. He had already decided on the destruction of Israel as a punishment for their idolatry (which included prostitution, rape, child murder, drunken senselessness and massive orgies, most of which would be against the law today) before Josiah's birth. That being said, the Bible clearly attributes God's goodness and mercy with the way he honored Josiah's loyalty. It caused him to wait for Josiah's sake.

The article states, "However it is now fairly well established among academic scholars that the Biblical narrative is not an accurate reflection of religious views in either Judah or particularly Israel during this period." This is a gross misstatement of the source material, "The Triumph of Elohim" by Diana Edelman, specifically the short essay, "The Appearance of Pantheon in Judea" Lowell Handy.

Mr. Handy writes, "It is fairly well established by now that the narrative of the book of Kings cannot be taken as an accurate reflection of the religious world of the nations of Judah and Israel." This has a footnote which reads:

"The historicity of certain sections of the narrative has been questioned for a long time within scholarly circles, even though the majority of the text is accepted to be historically trustworthy; this is particularly true of aspects of the depiction of the northern kingdom, Israel."

This points to several errors in the Wiki article: first, that the source questions the entire Bible's account of religious views in Judea and Israel. It doesn't. It only questions 'certain sections' of the book of Kings. That is very specific. Second, the source article actually states that the book of Kings is accurate of Israel, the Northern kingdom.

While the book is a complex tome on the topic, the Ms. Edelman asserts clearly that the book is not representative of mainstream scholars. She writes on page 15, "The process leading to the emergence of monotheistic belief systems in the ancient Near East and the time frame in which this development took place continue to be topics of debate and concern. The present volume is dedicated to a fresh look at both issues by a group of scholars who do not espouse standard views and answers."

Thus, the wiki author's assertion that, "it is now fairly well established among academic scholars that the Biblical narrative is not an accurate reflection of religious views in either Judah or particularly Israel during this period" with Ms. Edelman as the source material is incogent.

I am not finished with my critique but I believe I have presented enough information to question the entire quality of this article. I believe it must be re-written by someone who actually reads the source material and without a religious bias. Archeological data does support the 10th century Davidic narrative. And there are other archeological studies which doubt it. Both sides must be presented. The Bible must be sourced in order to make general conclusions as to its meaning and intent. It can't just be the author's opinion about the Bible. I hope this has been a helpful review of this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:601:907F:C6D0:B09D:3193:E1BF:8F0B (talk) 19:55, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Reply:

• Herzog laid out many of the theories Finkelstein and Silberman present in their book: "the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the twelve tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united kingdom of David and Solomon, described in the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom." The new theories envision this modest chiefdom as based in a Jerusalem that was essentially a cow town, not the glorious capital of an empire.
  
  Although, as Herzog notes, some of these findings have been accepted by the majority of biblical scholars and archaeologists for years and even decades, they are just now making a dent in the awareness of the Israeli public -- a very painful dent.

  — Laura Miller, King David was a nebbish

• Let me reinforce this claim in respect to my own work. The mainstream view of critical biblical scholarship accepts that Genesis-Joshua (perhaps Judges) is substantially devoid of reliable history and that it was in the Persian period that the bulk of Hebrew Bible literature was either composed or achieved its canonical shape. I thus find attempts to push me out onto the margin of scholarship laughable.

  — Philip Davies, Minimalism, "Ancient Israel," and Anti-Semitism

• The last quarter of the 20th century has also seen the development of a crisis in the historiography of ancient Israel, which shows no sign of abating in the early years of the 21st. This crisis takes the form of a progressive loss of confidence in the historical value of the biblical narratives. In the middle of the 20th century, English language scholarship on ancient Israel was dominated by the Albright school, which placed great confidence in the archeology as a a means by which to affirm the essential reliability of the biblical text, beginning in the time of Abraham. This approach found its classic expression in John Bright's History of Israel, an impressive attempt to contextualize the biblical story by interweaving it with what we know of ancient Near Eastern history. Even when Bright wrote, a more skeptical view prevailed in German scholarship, at least with regard to the early books of the Bible. But the scene has changed drastically in the last quarter century. In a book originally published in 1992, Philip Davies claimed that "biblical scholars actually know - and write - that most of the 'biblical period' consists not only of unhistorical persons and events, but even of tracts of time that do no belong in history at all.

  — John J. Collins, The Bible after Babel. Historical Criticism in a Postmodern Age.

• He cites the fact—now accepted by most archaeologists—that many of the cities Joshua is supposed to have sacked in the late 13th century b.c. had ceased to exist by that time. Hazor was destroyed in the middle of that century, and Ai was abandoned before 2000 b.c. Even Jericho, where Joshua is said to have brought the walls tumbling down by circling the city seven times with blaring trumpets, was destroyed in 1500 b.c. Now controlled by the Palestinian Authority, the Jericho site consists of crumbling pits and trenches that testify to a century of fruitless digging.

  — Jennifer Wallace, „Shifting Ground in the Holy Land” Smithsonian Magazine

• The fact is that we are all minimalists -- at least, when it comes to the patriarchal period and the settlement. When I began my PhD studies more than three decades ago in the USA, the 'substantial historicity' of the patriarchs was widely accepted as was the unified conquest of the land. These days it is quite difficult to find anyone who takes this view.
  
  In fact, until recently I could find no 'maximalist' history of Israel since Wellhausen. ... In fact, though, 'maximalist' has been widely defined as someone who accepts the the biblical text unless it can be proven wrong. If so, very few are willing to operate like this, not even John Bright (1980) whose history is not a maximalist one according to the definition just given.

  — Lester L. Grabbe, Some Recent Issues in the Study of the History of Israel

• I am certainly not insisting that authors of Western Civilization texts for university classes should agree with the suggestions made about ancient Israel in recent decades by scholars such as those whom I have cited. What I am saying is that it is bad scholarship, and bad pedagogy, simply to ignore an important body of recent work, offering adult students a literalist-leaning account that is by scholarly standards probably twenty years out of date. At the very least, textbook authors should include more critical scholars' works and some minimalist works in their recommended readings, so that students would have a chance to confront such arguments on their own.
  
  The Hebrew Bible is simply not a reliable source for the history of ancient Israel, and the authors of the textbooks surveyed seem largely unaware of this fact. Writers of textbooks for undergraduates need to ask themselves: If we are content to provide students with mythical, legendary, uncritical histories of ancient Israel, how can we have any legitimate grounds for complaint or criticism when others are willing to provide mythologized, fictionalized histories of other peoples and places?

  — Jack Cargill, "Ancient Israel in Western Civ Textbooks"

• Amihai Mazar affirmed in 2008 for Icarus Films that David's Jerusalem was a very little town, but a powerful little town in the political vacuum of the country. "Background on Scholars". icarusfilms.com. 20 July 2009. Archived from the original on 20 July 2009. Retrieved 18 July 2019.

• Selig, Abe (23 February 2010). "'J'lem city wall dates back to King Solomon'". The Jerusalem Post | JPost.com. Retrieved 18 July 2019. Nonetheless, other archeologists posit that the biblical narrative reflecting the existence of a powerful monarchy in Jerusalem is largely mythical and that there was no strong government to speak of in that era.
  
  Aren Maeir, an archeology professor at Bar Ilan University, said he has yet to see evidence that the fortifications are as old as Mazar claims. There are remains from the 10th century in Jerusalem, he said, but proof of a strong, centralized kingdom at that time remains "tenuous."

• Coogan, Michael (2010). "4. Thou Shalt Not: Forbidden Sexual Relationships in the Bible". God and Sex. What the Bible Really Says (1st ed.). New York, Boston: Twelve. Hachette Book Group. p. 105. ISBN 978-0-446-54525-9. Jerusalem was no exception, except that it was barely a city—by our standards, just a village. In David's time, its population was only a few thousand, who lived on about a dozen acres, roughly equal to two blocks in Midtown Manhattan. My own comment: Yup, that's a surface of less than five rugby fields (=12.45 acres).

• Lipschits, Oded (2014). "The history of Israel in the biblical period". In Berlin, Adele; Brettler, Marc Zvi (eds.). The Jewish Study Bible (2nd ed.). Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-997846-5. As this essay will show, however, the premonarchic period long ago became a literary description of the mythological roots, the early beginnings of the nation and the way to describe the right of Israel on its land. The archeological evidence also does not support the existence of a united monarchy under David and Solomon as described in the Bible, so the rubric of "united monarchy" is best abandoned, although it remains useful for discussing how the Bible views the Israelite past.

• GBRV: "there wasn't any archaeological evidence to confirm the existence of Bablyon, Nineveh, Asshur, or other cities mentioned in the Bible". That's right, until there was evidence, there wasn't any evidence. (And it is misleading to suggest that references to contemporary cities at or near the time of writing confirm the veracity of tales that supposedly happened in a much earlier period.) If at some point there is evidence for the Exodus, then the article will say there is evidence. It is not a violation of WP:NPOV to say there is no evidence for something for which there is no evidence. It isn't even an assertion that something didn't happen. It's just a statement indicating that there isn't a good reason for believing that it did, especially for claims that are extraordinary.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:52, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

  — 

These are just a few quotes I could quickly find. As for your Christian apologetics: it is ludicrous that you try to pass it for mainstream history. Germane WP:RULES: WP:NOTTHEOCRACY and WP:CRYBLASPHEMY. If you consider the Bible historically accurate or objectively true, learn that we don't. In disputes between faith and science/scholarship, Misplaced Pages always sides with mainstream science and mainstream scholarship. Tgeorgescu (talk) 04:58, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

TfD Notice

There are currently two open discussions on whether templates Template:Kings of Israel & Template:Kings of Judah should be deleted or not. Both discussions can be found at Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion/Log/2020 April 27. Jerm (talk) 16:41, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Theocracy

Except for Constantine the Great's rule, all Ancient countries were theocracies. They did not knew separation between church and state. Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:16, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Year Notion to Common Era

The dates within the article should be changed from BC->BCE and AD->CE to reflect neutral academic terminology of the Common Era that does not carry with it any religious or ethnocentric bias.

As this article has nothing to do with Christianity or Christian-influenced Western culture, there is no reason for the date notion to ve based around the birth of Christ (BC meaning Before Christ and AD Anno Domini, Latin for "in the year of our Lord.").

Also because this article is related to other religions, Monotheistic Yahwism and early Judaism, I believe it is extra important for there to be religious objectivity, making Before the Common Era/Common Era the appropriate choice.

According to the Misplaced Pages Manual of Style, chronological notation can be changed when it makes sense for the article. While it gives specific examples of when to use to Julian or Gregorian calendar, early societies in the Near East are not explicitly stated. Using BCE/CE also follows the standards set by the majority of leading manuals of style including those for Encyclopædia Britannica, American National Biography, Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, MLA, Chicago Manual of Style, AP Stylebook, and more.

My previous edits reflect this change in date format in the article.

016bells (talk) 22:38, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

We have WP:RULES for it, i.e. WP:ERA. The point is that AD/CE choice is arbitrary, so who wants to change the choice loses by default. Tgeorgescu (talk) 22:43, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

References

1. "For dates in early Egyptian and Mesopotamian history, Julian or Gregorian equivalents are often uncertain. Follow the consensus of reliable sources, or indicate their divergence." https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#Julian_and_Gregorian_calendars

Edit war

@Karma1998: the text is available at , and if Maeir posits anything:

1. extreme scarcity of evidence about the United Monarchy;
2. lack of consensus about UM among archaeologists.

This is being discussed at WP:FTN. tgeorgescu (talk) 20:06, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

You replied: Things have not changed much since 2014. If that's the case, I win by default. tgeorgescu (talk) 20:09, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

OK, that's Maeir's opinion. I added the opinions of other scholars like William G. Dever and Amihai Mazar. They are both recent. -Karma1998 (talk) 20:10, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Nope, you have deleted Mazar's opinion just because you did not like it. tgeorgescu (talk) 20:12, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

No, I actually stated what Mazar actually said.-Karma1998 (talk) 20:13, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

He stated stuff you like; he also stated stuff you dislike, and you have removed it from the article. tgeorgescu (talk) 20:15, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Because he didn't say it. He said that Jerusalem was a small, but fortified town, with monumental architecture. That's what he said. -Karma1998 (talk) 20:19, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

He stated that Jerusalem was more like a burg. He stated that the whole population of the United Monarchy was some 20 thousand people. That's about the number of people from Wijhe. tgeorgescu (talk) 20:24, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

• comment- If the goal is to determine what parts of the Tanakh narrative are supported by material evidence, the Northern kingdom (house of Jeroboam) is supported, the Southern kingdom (house of David) is supported, but the united monarchy and the house of Saul are not supported. I haven't seen any recent scholarship that contradicts this. Newimpartial (talk) 20:24, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Yup, I chose Maeir rather than Lipschitz, because Maeir works for a conservative Israeli university, while Lipschitz can be accused that he is in cahoots with Finkelstein.

I'm willing to accommodate what William Dever and Amihai Mazar say, that's not the problem. The problem is that neither side of the dispute has prevailed, and that real evidence is extremely hard to come by.

So, as long as you do not state Dever and Mazar as the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, I am willing to re-add their views to the article. tgeorgescu (talk) 20:49, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

For my part, I am uncomfortable with the bothsidesism of the version I reverted. The "biblical maximalist" position that the united monarchy existed much as described in the Tanakh may have been credible in the 20th century, but it is simply unsupported by the rencent, published evidence. Even Mazar doesn't really argue that there is any support for the biblical account of the united monarchy, merely that it is not entirely disproven, and he has to involve the "great man" theory of history to do so. (I haven't yet read Dever, though.) Newimpartial (talk) 20:50, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

For Dever, Finkelstein is the boogeyman who removed the United Monarchy from public record. Anyway, when scholars like Dever, Mazar, and Faust say the UM existed, we have to make sure what they mean by UM. tgeorgescu (talk) 20:53, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

From what I gather, a lot of this "debate" uses the size of settlements in the region of Judah as a kind of proxy war about whether the "united monarchy" was possible or not. Regardless of whether or not there was enough urbanization in the south to offer a plausible united capital, however, the absence of evidence that any southern kingdom ruled the north in the 10th century is rather deafening. Newimpartial (talk) 20:58, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

@Tgeorgescu: @Newimpartial: I've made a "compromise edit": now the article states both opinions of the side. I also think that your opinion about Dever is quite unfair: he is a respected archaeologist, a self-declared atheist and he openly dislikes fundamentalists. As for Mazar, he openly supports the United Monarchy, although he is not as virulent as Dever in his opinions. --Karma1998 (talk) 20:57, 30 April 2021 (UTC).

@Newimpartial: Listen, we can't just ignore the recent archaeological findings in Khirbet el-Qeyiafa and Jerusalem. How can we insert both opinions?--Karma1998 (talk) 20:59, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

I do think we need to include those findings, preferably from secondary sources. I do not think the article can reach conclusions beyond what the actual evidence allows, however. I am all in favor of nuance about the question of urbanization in Judah around the 10th century, but that evidence does not - and cannot - make the Tanakh historical for this place and time. Not even Mazar pretends that it can. Newimpartial (talk) 21:02, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

@Newimpartial: I don't think the Tanakh is historically true, it gives a "larger-than-life" portrait of David and Solomon. In any case, I've modified the page again stating that the new discoveries "might change" the opinion. Is that OK?--Karma1998 (talk) 21:08, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

No, it isn't. Please stop edit-warring and present draft text here first.

My main problem with each of your versions is structural, as it shifts the basic structure of the article to imply that the archaeology supports the "united monarchy" origin story for the House of David - which it simply does not. But you don't seem to recognize this issue, which is why it needs to be discussed. Newimpartial (talk) 21:12, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

@Newimpartial: Listen, I don't know what to do. I'm trying to include both sides, but you keep reversing my edits. How can I do it? The Israeli Antiquities Authority has clearly stated that urbanisation in Judah had already begun by the 10th century. Even Finkelstein now speaks of a polity in the 10th century BCE. Please, how can we state both opinions? --Karma1998 (talk) 21:11, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Please see my comment above. I am less interested in the hypothesis of a 10th century polity, and more interested in the question of evidence for the "united monarchy" narrative. The existence of a polity may be a necessary condition for the united monarchy to be potentially historical, but it really isn't a sufficient condition, and no good scholarship says that it is (or even reaches that conclusion, AFAICT). Newimpartial (talk) 21:15, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

• All unassessed articles
• C-Class Judaism articles
• Mid-importance Judaism articles
• C-Class Jewish history-related articles
• High-importance Jewish history-related articles
• WikiProject Jewish history articles
• C-Class Israel-related articles
• High-importance Israel-related articles
• WikiProject Israel articles
• C-Class Palestine-related articles
• Mid-importance Palestine-related articles
• WikiProject Palestine articles
• C-Class military history articles
• C-Class Middle Eastern military history articles
• Middle Eastern military history task force articles
• C-Class former country articles
• WikiProject Former countries articles
• C-Class Ancient Near East articles
• Unknown-importance Ancient Near East articles
• Ancient Near East articles by assessment