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Very inappropriate attitude on talk (violates NPA, CIV, BATTLEGROUND)

• Exxess (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I've recently become aware of some very disturbing edits by User:Exxess on Talk:Szlachta. I've interacted with him very little (disclaimer: while most of NPAs at that talk page are directed at User:Lembit Staan, some are directed at me; reviewing the history it seems I've had some interactions with that editor a few years back), but what I see is very disturbing and seems to breach WP:NPA, WP:CIV, WP:AGF and WP:BATTLEGROUND. It seems impossible to discuss anything with that user there given their attitude. I'll note here that their edits to the article itself are mostly ok, but whenever they are challenged, even on a slight matter, Exxess responds with a walls of text in the form of extremly uncivil rant of the scale I've rarely seen in all my years here. Here are some diffs and quotations, from most recent to oldest:

• • "to hell with your petty WP:NPA/" <-- self explanatory...
  • "There seems to be a clique that regards Polish articles as their fiefdom. I defeated Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus in a request for deletion regarding the Żądło-Dąbrowski z Dąbrówki, herbu Radwan family article. Then what Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus did was round up his little clique and posse, and I was accused of sock-puppetry" <-- battleground language/ABF and WP:ASSERTIONS
  • "Now, we have another knee-jerk editor, Lembit Staan, who tried to round up a posse here - Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Poland#Szlachta"
  • " Lembit Staan taking umbrage with calling the szlachta an electorate is idiotic and stupid" <--WP:ASSERTIONS, ABF
  • "Forget summoning your friends, and fight your own battles. " <--WP:ASSERTIONS, ABF, battleground
  • "STOOPID - brainless indeed. And mentally disordered. See lunacy above."
• • "Knee-jerk editor Lembit Staan strikes again. This editor is bitching and moaning at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Poland#Szlachta"
  • " This kind of prodigious, knee-jerk stupidity and idiocy is difficult to comprehend, yet alone tolerate. "
  • "Lembit Staan gonna' try to round up a posse and a clique at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Poland#Szlachta, so he can make some half-assed, idiotic attempt at "consensus" despite what the sources state."
  • ":Lembit Staan, you really think Misplaced Pages exists to reinforce your ignorance, misconceptions, and prejudices. Then you cry ORIGINAL RESEARCH and WP:SYNTH when your idiotic, knee-jerk deletions get challenged. There is no way to dance around the idiocy of this one. "
  • "Keep an eye on this editor Lembit Staan. Really takes umbrage if editor's edits are challenged, particularly when they are stupid"
• • "I disagree with everything. It's a reflex" <-- not a good attitude to have by default
  • "let us have a war about that" <-- BATTLEGROUND
  • "stop the trespass, and let me work" <--WP:OWN attitude
• • "a superlative brainless example of Lembit Staan's statement, "brainless replacement of the word 'szlachta' with 'nobility'", and all this after a debate determining the title of the article should not be "Polish nobility"; but the lead sentence is in direct contradiction to the article title "Szlachta." Brainless and confused indeed. Knee-jerk editing" (also note the edit summary)

Just today, this spilled into WT:POLAND:

• • "Lembit Staan, what is dubious is you contradicting the obvious. You are wasting time with trifles and the immaterial. At first I was questioning your intelligence. Now I am questioning your sanity. "
• • "Pal, (Lembit Staan) you want to talk bullshit and nonsense, so let's demonstrate yours "
  • "Wrong, you cannot read."
  • "You have a primordial misunderstanding regarding facts, which requires countering your knee-jerk deletions and crap with forthrightness."
  • "Pal, here is some advice for you - do not fight facts and secondary sources with stubbornness and knee-jerk deletions."
• • "I revert your edits because your edits are knee-jerk and idiotic."
  • "So, because the great Lembit Staan does not comprehend history, or law, he is going to cry"
  • "So, what you are bitching and moaning about is the fact you're publicly being shown you do not know what you're editing about, and when you PERSONALLY do not agree with something you DO NOT UNDERSTAND, or ever considered, you just knee-jerk delete, and start flinging accusations of original research and synth, and stumble right through the secondary sources, and pick yourself and keep going, then you try to round up a posse to support your half-assed, knee-jerk edits. I told you to take it to talk. You ran away. Then you come here and try to round up a posse."
  • "You knee-jerk editors who think anything on Misplaced Pages regarding Poland is your personal fiefdom get stopped dead in your tracks by the secondary sources. Then, you try to round up your little clique, but fail."
  • "Stay away for good, Lembit Staan, because you do more harm than good with your limited capacity to read English and comprehend what the secondary sources state"
  • "Do the world a favor, Lembit Staan, and stay away from this article, which is too complex for your limited powers of comprehension"

There is more but I think the above is sufficient to demonstrate a problematic pattern - one that has been going on for years. Note that this editor was inactive for a while, sometime taking wikibreaks that last over a year, but he displayed a similar, problematic attitude when he was active at the talk page of the same article in the past:

• in 2018:
  • General note: Refactoring others' talk page comments on Talk:Szlachta
  • also that year, Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Szlachta (ping User:Korwinski)
• And more ancient history from 2011:
  • • Civility warning from User:Vecrumba instantly deleted by Exxess as "Deleted meddling" in the next diff. I actually forgot about this but this complain was apparently related to a personal attack against me: "You know what, Konieczny?  The thought of my comments from yesterday being here nauseates me.  Your archive will be the edit history.  Your conception of what nobility is, particularly Polish nobility, is so underdeveloped and ignorant, callow and juvenile, it's laughable trying to have an intelligent discussion with you in regards to its significance" and more
  • "Too ludicrous on such a fundamental, primordial level to even discuss without boggling the mind. DELETE IT ALL, like washing cow crap off one's self." (in edit summary)
  • and "You really do enjoy coming across with an authoritarian tone, don't you?" ... ":You do read, right, or is that demanding too much?"... "You and the little group of editors you canvassed and rallied around yourself"
• Also note that this topic is within the old discretionary sanctions that this editor was informed about all the way back in 2008:
  • And last, a CIV warning from all the way back that year too:

Just in case, let me point our recent attempts at dispute resolution: Lembit Staan asked for assistance at WT:POLAND a bit over a weeks ago, and yesterday I asked User:El C for review and mediation at Talk:Szlachta, but he declined to get involved. Exxess was aware of both of those requests, since they responded in their usual wall-of-text uncivil style in both places. Since community discussion at WikiProject and ping to an admin who was (until recently) active in related topic areas failed to provide any resolution, I see no recourse but to come to ANI.

While we can always use some more active editors in the obscure topic area of pre-20th century Polish history, and Exxess seems to have some knowledge about the topic, this kind of attitude and behavior (BATTLEGROUND, OWN, personal attacks, and the wall-off-text style they are wrapped in) cannot be allowed to continue: it leads to 'winning' disputes by making everyone else leave: recently, Lembit Staan mentioned at WT:POLAND "If the community does not participate, who I am to want more and I am removing szlachta from my watchlist for 2 months; not worth my mental health". Therefore I'd like to ask the administrators & community for intervention. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:58, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus, you forgot to put in here Lembit Staan calling what I put in the article "bullshit" despite the secondary sources, because it is something "he never heard of." Once again, I do not consider being forthright a problem. The goal is to improve the article. And, a detailed discussion is not a "wall-of-text" style with the intent to stop discussion. I am inviting discussion and challenging your behavior, your edits, and Lembit Staan's edits. Stick to the facts. You personally knee-jerk deleted something I was in the middle of editing. Based on what? See detailed discussion. I do not recall reading any policy on a character limit for talk discussions, so I personally think you are taking matters out of context, and painting a very misleading picture, just like when you lost a deletion debate, then you gathered a posse, and accused me of sock-puppetry. False claim. Stick to improving the article and the facts. The extent some editors will go to when they are challenged. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus - you are always appealing for outside help. Consistently. - Exxess (talk) 06:03, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

There is an article called Royal elections in Poland. I do think it is stupid for Lembit Staan to object to the szlachta being called an electorate. Being forthright. I think that particular assertion is stupid. There is no way to dance around that one. - Exxess (talk) 06:10, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus - deletion meddling? That was an honest mistake and you are a disingenuous editor. You are very good at ignoring the rules when it suits your purposes, like canvassing, until you are challenged, then, upon your edits being challenged, you rigidly assert violation of the "rules." "Deletion meddling" - that was an honest mistake. Korwinsky was another editor who just knee-jerk deleted a reference because he thought it would "mislead readers." Presumptuous in the extreme. - Exxess (talk) 06:15, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

I see that Exxess has replied three times without denying that they have engaged in personal attacks and harassment. Perhaps that is because the diffs provided above show quite clearly that Exxess has repeatedly engaged in that type of misconduct. I have blocked Exxess for one week. Exxess, when you return, abandon personal attacks and harassment. If your misconduct resumes, the next block will be for a much longer time. Cullen Let's discuss it 06:29, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Given the editor's comments on their talk page, this might as well be extended to indef. They've indicated they see nothing wrong with their behavior & will resume it when the block ends. — The Hand That Feeds You: 20:27, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

HandThatFeeds, Cullen328, Given Lembit Staan's comment below, I proposed a ban on post-size limit (nobody can be reasonable expected to read those rantish walls of texts Exxess mass produces). Given his later talk page comments, Exxess now demands an apology from editors he offended, while simoultenesly asking for a longer block. Sigh. I have serious doubts he is learning anything from this. This reminds of this mini-essay I wrote a while ago. Editors convinced of their own perfection are hard to reform. PS. All that said, I hate blocking people who show a willingness to reform, which is why my suggestion was the word-size limit. It's plausible Exxess could be an asset to the project, IF his talk posts were civil and readable. But said willingness to reform is hard to see right now. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:16, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Piotrus, I have withdrawn their talk page accesss and warned them that they will be blocked again if the personal attacks resume when their current block expires. I am not a fan of highly customized editing restrictions, but if the community disagrees with me, so be it. Cullen Let's discuss it 02:49, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

I am amused by how my accuser, wrongdoer _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here}, writes about me as if I am in a larval stage of development, while all means of countering, resisting, and destroying the false claims hurled against me were forced from my fighting fingers, upon the deprivation of my Misplaced Pages-given freedom to edit.

You may measure an editor by observing the editors aligned against him.

I am also amused by how my accuser, wrongdoer _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here}, is attempting to govern my Misplaced Pages-given freedom to edit. By what right, does my accuser presume I wish to have him administer and govern my Misplaced Pages-given freedom to edit?

I am sure I will now be accused of harassment for courteously notifying my accuser Piotrus his wrongdoing is being discussed in a public forum.

Does not Misplaced Pages state, "If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Misplaced Pages, ignore it."? Does not Misplaced Pages state, "Be bold can be explained in three words: 'Go for it.' .... Fix it yourself instead of just talking about it."

I saw a Misplaced Pages problem, and I Misplaced Pages boldly fixed it. I did no wrong. But wrong was done to me. My faultless 14-year record was besmirched with a one-week block, for Personal attacks or violations of the harassment policy, and now I will forever be evaluated in light of that besmirch, while my accuser, wrongdoer Piotrus, was allowed to accuse at will, while all means of countering, resisting, and destroying the false claims hurled against me were forced from my fighting fingers, and I was tossed into a Misplaced Pages pillory (my talk page), and deprived of my Misplaced Pages-given freedom to edit, to counter wrongdoer Piotrus' willfully made false claims. I question the neutrality and impartiality of the one who forced me into a Misplaced Pages pillory (my talk page), and removed all means of countering, resisting, and destroying the false claims hurled against me by depriving me of my Misplaced Pages-given freedom to edit, while allowing wrongdoer Piotrus to edit at will.

As I attempted to be heard, to counter, resist, and destroy the false claims hurled at me, my ability to be heard was limited by accusations of "walls-of-text," "walls-of-text," "walls-of-text."

I did not know all principles of equity and fairness were tossed aside for hasty and reckless justice upon my creating my Misplaced Pages account on 26 May 2007. - Exxess (talk) 21:45, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

For the record: My major problem with the article "Szlachta" was not the belligerent editor, but the apparent lack of interest of the Polish community to the subject. I admit I may be in error, and asked them for a third opinion several times, but got none, and the article continues to be dominated by a WP:OWNer. Heck, I even did not complain then they violated the 3RR reverting my "knee-jerk" edits. I understand that only a community can handle a WP:OWNer. But the community seems to be deterred by the repetitive walls of text generated by this editor. Forcing this editor to be more polite will not solve the problems with the article text they generated. When I come back there in 2 months, I feel I will have to go in a hard way of the procedure of formal dispute resolution for each and every dubious statement this user introduced. Lembit Staan (talk) 18:15, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Exxess has returned, and gone right back to walls of text. Thankfully no insults yet. — The Hand That Feeds You: 15:33, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Wow, — The Hand That Feeds You: - well, look at that. I'm not defenseless anymore. Looks like I'm going to have several ANI cases of my own soon.

Hey, since you mentioned the wall-of-text, and you pinged me, do you think Lembit Staan is right? Take it over to Talk:Szlachta#Misplaced Pages:No_original_research;_Wikipedia:SYNTHESIS. I hope that looming wall-of-text is not terrifying anyone. It is dark under its shadow. Would not want an ANI case for terrorism by way of "wall-of-text"... Notice the editors mentioned there, and how polite I am - Piotrus and Lembit Staan.

And, while you are there, look at this paragon of brilliance, "obsolete sources." Anything prior to World War II, is an "obsolete source". That should be applied Misplaced Pages-wide. When _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} deletes something, that could never be "deletion meddling". I can't be accused of not trying to be polite before we got here, but I never got a chance to mention that before being put in the pillory (blocked) and deprived of my Misplaced Pages-given freedom to edit. - Read: Talk:Szlachta#Please_avoid_using_obsolete_sources

I have to compliment Piotrus. Since I first joined Misplaced Pages 26 May 2007, 14 years ago, whenever Misplaced Pages is causing me nauseating, severe migraines, Piotrus has always been there for me. I cannot thank him enough. And now, I have Lembit Staan, too, so the migraines disappear twice as fast. After I get banned, no more migraines at all. - Exxess (talk) 18:31, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

FOR THE RECORD - Inciting a mob because no editor of their own accord took this editor below's position, or rallied to his side, upon his bad-faith presumption Exxess is "dominating and screwing up the article and talk page", because the editor below presumed so, because the editor below's logic could not possibly be wrong. Wrongdoer Piotrus did not cry, "Foul, foul, foul," or cry, "Personal attack", or "Incivility," or file an ANI report, or drop a hint the editor below is an example of an editor who thinks they are perfect, with an admonition that this editor read the pontifications in the essays of wrongdoer Piotrus. There was no possibility Exxess was trying to help and improve the article. Exxess has spent 14 years waging war on Misplaced Pages, as if that was a rule, not an exception, so shows the picture wrongdoer Piotrus presented. Of course, there is no possibility Piotrus could ever be anything but perfectly equitable and fair. Wrongdoer Piotrus comes with clean hands:

"No it is not. This user keeps pumping bullshit his own interpretations into the article: More precisely, the szlachta were not a nobility nor a gentry, but an electorate. Really? I keep repeating that edits of this user must be monitored. Lembit Staan (talk) 16:25, 24 April 2021 (UTC)" - Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Poland#Szlachta

"<sigh> For God's sake, really? Nobody has a say against all this illogical rambling ? Shall I file WP:RFC for very nonsense this guy introduced? (Coming back there in 2 months). Lembit Staan (talk) 19:27, 4 May 2021 (UTC)" - Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Poland#Szlachta

FOR THE RECORD - NOT an Extended Discussion, or Talk, on a Page Called "Talk"; But Another Repetitive, Bullshit, Illogical, Rambling, Nonsense "Wall of Text", which, to quote wrongdoer Piotrus, "nobody can be reasonable expected to read those rantish walls of texts Exxess mass produces", on an article where it is obvious Exxess is claiming ownership:

Evidence - Talk:Szlachta#Misplaced Pages:No_original_research;_Wikipedia:SYNTHESIS

Of course wrongdoer Piotrus painted a picture of a battle-hardened Exxess, and the hands that painted that picture were perfectly clean, and wrongdoer Piotrus, being nothing but perfectly equitable and fair, would wish me to present this about my accuser, also in the interests of Misplaced Pages:Neutral_point_of_view#Due_and_undue_weight:

Regarding wrongdoer Piotrus: "In my view the A.M. part of your appeal demonstrates.. what to call it... a lack of forthcoming-ness. The remainder of the appeal, in which you speak of WP's losses from your lack of participation, that's a different story that others can think over."

Novickas (talk) 17:05, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Piotrus&diff=next&oldid=406722192&diffmode=source

Wrongdoer Piotrus went through 14 years of my Misplaced Pages history and could only site a possible clash with two editors in 14 years - wrongdoer Piotrus and Lembit Staan, but as concerns wrongdoer Pitorus, wrongdoer states himself, "I've interacted with him (Exxess) very little," so, for all intents and purposes, one editor in 14 years - Lembit Staan. Both editors I stated I am neutral about. - Exxess (talk) 23:15, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Wow. Uh. Does anyone have time to read all of that?--Jorm (talk) 23:21, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I read it, and I also read Talk:Szlachta. I don't know how it's possible for anyone to work on an article with Exxess. The haranguing, the condescension and snarkiness, the needless repetition...it's exhausting, just reading it. Schazjmd (talk) 23:44, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

• Sooo... are the three dozen uses of "wrongdoer Piotrus" just a particularly inept attempt at being insulting? Because if so, I think the block just expired would seem not to have registered to any noticeable degree. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 00:37, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
• I vote to indef block Exxess. Misplaced Pages is not some social media site where people score points by mocking and insulting those with whom they disagree. It is a project to build an encyclopedia, an endeavor that requires maintenance of a level of not just civility, but professionalism. BD2412 T 00:47, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support indef block. The comments in this thread are a pale echo of the editor's behavior on the article talk page. That they are participating on the talk page rather than edit-warring their preferred content is a point in their favor, but what happens on the talk page is not a civil, collegial attempt to reach consensus. Until Exxess can find a new approach to working with others, the other editors should not have to endure that treatment. Schazjmd (talk) 01:04, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support indef: Clearly the block has not had any effect, with them still engaging in WP:TLDR-violating posts and veiled personal attacks as mentioned above. Enough WP:ROPE has been extended. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 02:20, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support indef or lesser sanctions "Exxess"'s recent behaviour is inconsistent with a collaborative project, including the Idonthearitis (as evidenced by their walls of text), the personnal attacks, and so on. They don't seem to have been blocked before. I'm not sure an indef (or community ban) is the best solution, but their editing has been confined to mostly one topic so far (see

Hectoring comments in a RM discussion by Dicklyon

I'm concerned about Dicklyon (talk · contribs)'s behaviour regarding the Battle of the Mons Pocket article. They are unhappy with the capitalisation of the article's title. After some move warring () during an initial talk page discussion, they did the right thing and started a RM discussion. However, during the initial discussion and the RM they have repeatedly insulted me and hectored the other editors who disagree with them about this rather minor issue. Diffs and quotes:

• Insult directed at me ("Maybe you're often distracted by titles?")
• Hectoring an editor who opposed the move while insulting me again ("What do you mean, "per Nick"? You just want to repeat what he said that was demonstrated false?")
• Hectoring another editor who opposed the move while insulting me further ("That's a rather preposterous presumption, given how wrongly he characterized the case usage in the sources he cited. He is obviously not up to speed on WP's capitalization guidelines."

This aggressive behaviour over a minor issue seems utterly unnecessary - it's obviously entirely possible to have differing views about capitalisation of a word without throwing insults around and needing to hector everyone who disagrees with you! Dicklyon has been blocked multiple times for edit warring, and this suggests that there is an ongoing problem which I would be grateful if an admin could follow up on. Nick-D (talk) 09:50, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

The "maybe you're often distracted by titles?" comment does not read as an insult to me. I think they were just suggesting that you came to the wrong conclusion because you were misled by some occurrences of the term in the context of titles. (Incidentally, the addition of the "maybe" hedge plus the question mark makes this read as a very mild/polite form of contradiction.) Unless there's some more context missing, I think you've been a bit quick to impute bad faith there. Colin M (talk) 00:38, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Dicklyon is often forceful during move discussions, and I've been on the receiving end of that forcefulness before, but frankly I'm not seeing an issue here. That said, Dicklyon should keep in mind that many Wikipedians are not, in fact, up to speed on capitalization guidelines and that he is often the ambassador for those guidelines. Mackensen (talk) 03:18, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes, but even after I subsequently followed his suggestion and started an RM discussion, he repeated the error and two other guys seconded that. Definitely they needed some pushback, as you can see there. Dicklyon (talk) 03:20, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

If other people support a particular capitalisation then they don't "need pushback". When people disagree with you it may mean that things are not as clear-cut as you believe them to be. According to WP:RM "Use this process if there is any reason to believe a move would be contested" - given the history of disputes about the capitalisation of this sort of thing you must surely know by now that these moves are likely to be contested. I suggest you use RM from now on. DuncanHill (talk) 14:23, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes, since Nick disagreed, we are using the RM process. The guys who joined him without saying why needed pushback because they gave no argument based in sources or guidelines, just an "opinion" that Nick liking capitalization there is better. That's not how an RM discussion is supposed to work. Dicklyon (talk) 19:26, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

I actually provided multiple sources to support the capitalised usage here, so was not relying on my opinion. It is beyond me why this editor is so aggressive about this minor matter and is continuing to attack me and the other editors who oppose the move. Nick-D (talk) 22:41, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Maybe because what you "provided" there was shown to be false, which you have not acknowledged, and the others have failed to account for. Dicklyon (talk) 23:17, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

This isn't really the place to rehash the merits of the ongoing RM discussion. In my view, as per Mackensen and Colin M, Dicklyon can sometimes have strongly held convictions, but although his comments may not have been especially polite, they seem basically within the bounds of Misplaced Pages routine discourse. — BarrelProof (talk) 01:10, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

@HAL333 and SnowFire: since your comments at the subject RM are under discussion here. Dicklyon (talk) 23:19, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

• That's not "hectoring". The complainant has some history of accusing Dicklyon of aggression, hectoring, etc., when the complainant isn't getting his way. This kind of escalation is a waste of ANI's time. Tony (talk) 01:47, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
  • I don't recall ever encountering Dicklyon before, so I'm not sure what history you're referring to. It's a bit odd that you're accusing me of Trumpian escalation while throwing muck at me here. Nick-D (talk) 02:02, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
    • Probably Tony refers to the section just above the RM, which he chimed in on, where you accused me of insulting you a few days before this "hectoring" accusation. Dicklyon (talk) 05:38, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

      Yeah, that would probably answer it. D'oh.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:12, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

It seems clear to me that what's needed at Talk:Battle of the Mons Pocket#Requested move 2 May 2021 is more hectoring, not less. Look at the crap that Nick's Milhist project buddies are now adding, supporting his position based on false claims, not adding anything to the discussion but wind. Dicklyon (talk) 21:54, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

"what's needed ... is more hectoring not less" "look at the crap" "not adding anything ... but wind". If that's collegial, good-faith editing then I'm a Dutchman. Dicklyon seems to to be taking every "oppose" as an insult and an opportunity to insult. Just chill, bro, as the Young People say. DuncanHill (talk) 22:02, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Do you disagree with my assessment of your arguments there, or you just think I should have found a more polite way to put it? Dicklyon (talk) 23:59, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

You've already been pointed to WP:BADGER. I'll point you there again ⇒WP:BADGER. DuncanHill (talk) 00:10, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Dicklyon, I attempted to suggest above, gently, that as an ambassador you should try to be more polite. Let me be clearer: your approach does not encourage the unconvinced to accept your point of view (and yes, I agree that the MOS is on your side). To the extent that you're seeking to convince people to follow the MOS you should adopt an approach that does so. Failing that, you should at least adopt an approach that doesn't have people muttering darkly on ANI about topic bans. Mackensen (talk) 00:39, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't think they are the ones to convince. They are not open to facts, guidelines, sources, etc. My comments are really to challenge them to put up or shut up, to make it clear to a closer that they have nothing to contribute to the discussion. Yes, I have a long history of people who want to ignore the MOS muttering to ANI about me. It's disgusting. Why don't they grow up? If an ambassador is what they need, that's probably not going to be me. Dicklyon (talk) 02:38, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

• Look at the crap that Nick's Milhist project buddies are now adding, supporting his position based on false claims Oh so we're Nick's cabal now? Never occurred to me. -Indy beetle (talk) 01:47, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

  I don't know about you, but he did canvas the project to get some of the traditional Milhist MOS-ignorers like SnowFire and Thewolfchild and Keith-264 to back him. Thank you for your comments there. We persuaded the closer. Dicklyon (talk) 03:43, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

  @Dicklyon: I'll accept that there are often people at MilHist that share like-minded opinions, but Nick-D's post which you characterized as canvassing was simply Members of this project may want to participate in the requested move discussion at Talk:Battle of the Mons Pocket#Requested move 2 May 2021. This is a very innocuous message and was liable to be read by everyone in that project, even people who didn't necessarily agree with their interpretation such as myself. I more often than not find myself disagreeing with User:Thewolfchild, but unless you can provide diffs which proves Nick was specifically soliciting the assistance of "SnowFire and Thewolfchild and Keith-264" for "traditional Milhist MOS-ignor"ing purposes, you really should do as wolf suggests and apologize. Or at least stop making the accusation. -Indy beetle (talk) 06:13, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

• Dicklyon's comment on MilHist of "Fortunately, the vacuous and false arguments of Nick-D, Thewolfchild, Keith-264, SnowFire, DuncanHill, and a few others were weighted appropriately by the closer there. When sources use lowercase, the preference of these editors to use caps should not be what determines the outcome. When Nick-D falsely states what sources use caps, and others simply second him even after the error is pointed out, it degrades the credibility of the project." certainly struck me as inappropriate. I know from experience that they can discuss disagreements collegially. Perhaps they need some encouragement to do so more consistently? Gog the Mild (talk) 11:31, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

  And Dicklyon didn't even have the courtesy to ping me when he called my arguments "vacuous and false". I'm not a member of the MilHist WP, it's only because of @Gog the Mild: mentioning it above that I saw the comment. DuncanHill (talk) 12:15, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

• "They are not open to facts, guidelines, sources, etc." "Why don't they grow up?" "to make it clear to a closer that they have nothing to contribute to the discussion." - these phrases don't look like Dicklyon going with the fourth pillar Misplaced Pages:Civility, and seem to denigrate RM closers' ability to analyse the arguments presented. GraemeLeggett (talk) 16:08, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

  Yeah, you can feel that this whole RM/ANI experience pissed me off pretty good. I'll try to get back to my usual calm self now. And I was not trying to "denigrate RM closers' ability to analyse the arguments", but rather to "help RM closers' ability to analyse the arguments" when I pushed back on the opposers and challenged them to say something meaningful. Dicklyon (talk) 17:33, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

• You know, I wasn't actually going to say anything originally, as this seemed like pointless drama for the sake of it - Dicklyon has his stridently held opinions, whatever, move on. And hell, despite voting oppose, if I'd closed that RM, I'd have done the same thing as buidhe and close it as "Moved", so it's not like I think Dicklyon's comments or points are illegitimate. However, apparently Dick has found the time to call me out as part of the "traditional Milhist MOS-ignorers", because anyone who votes differently from him is part of an evil plot, after the RM was already closed. This is some severe sore winner behavior. I almost never look at the MILHIST talk page, and found the RM via the usual way of checking WP:RM's list, and had no idea that Nick-D posted it elsewhere. Additionally, you misrepresent my point in the RM (and probably others). I wasn't saying "ignore the MOS." I was questioning the veracity of whether sources really do predominately lower cap "pocket" and think that for obscure topics, we should defer to the experts, which would be the article creator. And, put bluntly, based on your comments on other RMs, you've made clear that you see any sort of non-capitalized use anywhere as reason to remove the capital letters, so it's hard to just take your word for it that Nick-D is "wrong" on the source usage. Nevertheless, you convinced others that the reliable source usage really was mixed, so whatever, I can move on with my life - maybe you're even right, I'm certainly not an expert myself on the specific battle and its terminology in history.As a more general comment, article titles are to some extent arbitrary. Both the Manual of Style and article titling policy are essentially guidelines, suggestions. They aren't irrefutable rules like WP:RS or WP:NPOV. As such, editors can't really be wrong with them. Their opinions are, at worst, different from the prevailing consensus, and consensus can change (the Manual of Style in 2021 is not the same as it was in 2006, and it won't be the same in 2036 - that's healthy and good). As such, people should chill out if somebody is "wrong" in a RM. If they really are out of step with the consensus, than the RM will be closed against them (as arguably happened to Nick-D here!). If the "wrong" side actually succeeds in a well-attended RM, then maybe the consensus was different than expected, but it's no tragedy either way. Dicklyon, if you're reading this, your constant assumption of bad faith in others is frustrating; please accept that not everyone will agree with you every time, and that's okay. You have your opinion, let me have mine. SnowFire (talk) 21:11, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

  I hear you justifying that it's OK to ignore the MOS; OK, you can have that opinion. But your comment to trust the article creator, who said 3 of 5 cited sources use caps, even though the actual number was 1 of 5, devalues my own contribution. I wasn't expecting you to necessarily take my word for it if you doubted my creditibility, but if you're not going to look into it you can at least notice that Nick's distraction by titles in the Google book search he linked makes him much less credible. You threw your weight behind a person shown to be spewing falsities. Yeah, like I said, you can feel that I was pissed. Nick opening an AN/I thread in parallel with the RM discussion was a big part of that. Dicklyon (talk) 21:22, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

  "Your comment... devalues my own contribution." No! No, it doesn't. We don't round up the "wrong" side of an RFC and mock them for devaluing the "right" side of the RFC with their wrongness. The whole point of these discussions is for editors to offer their authentic, good faith !vote. If it's a weak or unconvincing !vote, the closer gives it little weight. That's it. If there's zero disagreement, there probably wasn't need to open an RFC / RM to begin with. SnowFire (talk) 00:47, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

  Why should anyone take the word of someone who spews so much bile? Life's too short. DuncanHill (talk) 21:37, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

• Raising concerns, at a wikiproject, about why participants in that project keep making arguments that defy our WP:P&G and directly contradict the sourcing, is not any kind of problem.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:52, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
• Also — Note: An editor has expressed a concern that editors have been canvassed to this discussion. .  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:52, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

break

Need to get back on track here. This is not about the RM itself, or which sources said what, this is about Dicklyon's behavior towards others, here, in that now-closed RM, and even now at an otherwise benign notification at milhist about said RM. Just because he doesn't agree with other editors, doesn't give him the right to badger his "opponents" with personal attack after personal attack, all with seeming impunity. Even if he is self-admittedly "pissed off", the MOS does not require such ardent defense that it gives a free pass to violate NPA. This ANI was filed 3 days ago, and as of an hour ago, the battleground mentality of this editor continues as he heaps more insults at others. - wolf 21:52, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Wolf, I have no problem with good-faith pushback on my MOS work. But this should have been a cut-and-dried case, or at least a simpler RM discussion. Go back and look at how it should have finished up after my May 1 comment. Nick could have checked his "After the Battle" source and noticed that there too he was "distracted by titles"; he could have said OK, done. Instead he took it as an insult and withdrew from the discussion in a huff, so I did the move again. He still objected, so we went to RM, where he again posted "evidence" (from a Google Books search) that was again nothing but being distracted by titles. OK, this happens, I get it. So I pushed back on him, and on those who seconded him without looking at evidence or apparently being aware of capitalization guidelines. OK, this happens, I can deal with it. Then he opens an AN/I case to complain about my "behavior". That's going way beyond any normal discourse that the situation required. Then he invites the Milhist project (which already had it on their article alerts for any of them who cared, so was really an "extra" appeal beyond their ordinary), bringing in more long-time MOS-dislikers like you and @Keith-264:. So, it's me that should take shit for being very pissed off over all this? Sure, pile it on. Dicklyon (talk) 22:08, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

So now you're the victim? Have you even read your previous posts here, at the RM, and at MilHist? You abuse all and sundry and then blame your behaviour on them? DuncanHill (talk) 22:13, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I blame them for most of the drama here and elsewhere, caused by the ridiculous things they wrote. Yes, including you, whose comments I quoted at the project talk page and reaffirmed that I considered them to be "vacuous". And I got to look up both "hectoring" and "vacuous", so it's not all bad. Dicklyon (talk) 22:54, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. Those who make poor arguments are not in a position to complain they're being mistreated when called on the poor quality of those arguments. We do that 24/7, and that is what is happening here. This is an encyclopedia-building project not a social network, so all this overly emotive "hurt feelings" posturing is sorely misplaced.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:52, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

You have a conflict of interest and Dick is waving a straw man. You should quit while you're ahead. Keith-264 (talk) 02:07, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Huh? You don't seem to have read WP:Conflict of interest or straw man, since neither of them seem to be pertinent to this discussion. Happening to agree with Dicklyon's criticisms of some of the MILHIST participants' transparently bogus and anti-source, anti-guideline argumentation, which increasingly borders on disruptive, is not any kind of conflict of interest, it's simply sensible. Dicklyon making observations that others are unhappy about isn't a straw man, even if they disagree with them.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:09, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

You seem to have a short memory. Keith-264 (talk) 03:16, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Which is just another non sequitur. Do you have any actually meaningful input into this thread, or are you just going to try to pick more fights? This is hardly a good venue for such an activity.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:27, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Personal attack by Thewolfchild

In addition to blatantly canvassing his buddies at MILHIST to come to this ANI (cf. WP:POVRAILROAD), Thewolfchild complains about Dicklyon's alleged "behavior towards others". Let's look at some behavior like Thewolfchild calling him a dick and implying that he is incapable of civility, which is obviously a false accusation, and grossly hypocritical. Probably blockworthy in and of itself: he's clearly trying to make a penis joke out of Dicklyon's name, in a addition to calling him a dick in a jerk sense. The WP:DICK shortcut was deprecated years ago, so Thewolfchild is going out of his way to use it in this case, against community consensus to not use it. I have delivered to Thewolfchild a {{Ds/alert|at}}, since this kind of behavior is not permissible in discussions about article titles, which are covered by discretionary sanctions. It's not at all like raising issues, as Dicklyon did, about editors making arguments that defy the sources and the WP:P&G; Thewolfchild's behavior is just verbal aggression for its own sake. If Thewolfchild will not learn from this (questionable, given this childish and again hypocritical tit-for-tat and missing-the-point behavior ) and will not refrain from similar uncivil behavior in future article-titling discussions, then it should simply go to WP:ANI for swift resolution next time. Thewolfchild would hardly be the first editor topic-banned from such discussions.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:52, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Personal attacks by SMcCandlish

In a post which can only be described as hypocritical and disingenuous, SMcCandlish (SMc) has left out his own personal attacks; one the false accusation of canvassing (isn't that how all this started?), the other conveniently hidden in an edit summary on his talk page, while reverting an edit I made so that only I would see it. This is right after abusing a DS sanction notice, with the clear intent of having a chilling effect on further posts by me to this ANI. An ANI he now tries to derail with this sudden "stop-looking-at-my-friend-Dicklyon-and-instead-look-at-the-Thewolfchild!" left turn. WP:DICK is a redirect to an active Meta essay on behavior. As SMc's diff shows, it was used as a redirect, piped with the word "nature", as in "the nature of Dicklyon's behavior is addressed by the 'don't be a jerk' essay". There was absolutely no "dick joke" being made at the expense of Dicklyons first name, I think the accusation is crude and obnoxious, and not only does SMc owe me an apology for this blantant lie, but one to Dicklyon as well, as it seems SMc will stop at nothing, including the humiliation of his own friend, with this nonsense. Lastly, this ANI is about Dicklyon's behavior, not mine. If SMc really feels I committed "blockable behavior", then that should merit it's own ANI report, not an attempt-at-distraction subsection of this report, that had the obvious additional benefit of not requiring a notification to my talk page (I wasn't even pinged). If SMc is going to preach the high road, he should also walk it. - wolf 00:58, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

This kind habitual (see previous diff above) "No I'm not! You are!" schoolyard-style parroting/projection tit-for-tat is not constructive, and is simply further strong evidence of Thewolfchild's ingrained battleground behavior and NOTGETTINGIT approach to criticism.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:16, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

And yet, I've actually had very little involvement with this entire matter. A !vote at the RM, then a couple of responses to the badgering that was taking place, and then I disengaged. I posted a comment at the milhist notice, was again badgered, and again was the one to disengage. I only posted 4 brief responses in total, on both pages. Then 2 whole days go by. Then I post a single comment here, at the subsection "(break)", asking that this ANI stay on point, and all of a sudden you are on me, with your wiki-wp:essay-salad, battleground attacks, accusations, bogus sanction notices, (iow: threats), all seemingly with zero self-awareness. You keep posting repeated personal attacks while claiming I'm somehow... disrupting... something...

All I can say is, this isn't about me and you need to stop making it about you, this particular report is about your friend, Dicklyon. You seem really desperate to derail this report into the typical tl:dr dreck that admins usually don't bother with. Multiple editors have asked that Dicklyon's behavior be reviewed, how about you just let the process run through without the detours. Can you do that? Can you stop the must-have-last-word-posts with every. single. editor. and just let this report run it's course? I think we're done here. - wolf 07:03, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Let's have an RfC and be done with it

This thread seems to be getting to the part of a Monty Python skit where a policeman shows up and stops it because it's getting too silly. Clearly, there are larger issues going on here than this specific editor, or this specific RM.

I'm currently involved in a very long argument with Dicklyon, at Talk:Extremely_Online#Requested_move_27_April_2021 (for the record, I think he's wrong, and that the article's title should be capitalized). Nevertheless, he has made reasonable arguments, and been honorable about it. He's been insistent, which is not the same thing as acting in bad faith. In fact, I wish that everyone I argued with on Misplaced Pages were this reasonable about it.

One thing I'd like to point out here is that, if you look on his talk page (or even in this thread) you can see that he is far from alone in his opinions about capitalization in titles. Maybe he is right, and maybe he is wrong, but it certainly doesn't seem like he is just some lone yahoo.

Since it doesn't seem like there is a project-wide consensus one way or the other, and everyone seems to think that the PAGs support a different point of view, I think we should have an RfC somewhere (perhaps at WT:MOS) to clarify the scope of MOS:CAPS and WP:NCCAPS. This seems to me like the only way that anyone is going to be satisfied on the issue (least of all an increasingly Mad Online thread at AN/I). jp×g 05:51, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

I guess that means you don't have a long memory of all the RFCs we've had on the MOS, including CAPS. There's a pretty strong consensus behind it, historically, though it's a continuing job to uniformly implement it. Almost all new articles that aren't obviously proper names still get created in title case, as most editors just aren't that familiar with the MOS, or they just like to cap things important to them, like Extremely Online. And yes, I appreciate your civil discourse there, though I disagree with the crux of your argument ("There is a difference between a simple conjunction of two words and a coherent concept being referred to by their conjunction.") since that's not how our MOS says to decide what to capitalize. If that was the criterion, almost every two-word concept that we name an article for would get caps, including Mons Pocket. For example, I just clicked "random article" until I found a two-word title not capped: Prague derby; now, I'm sure many will look at that and say that's the name of a thing, it should be capitalized. But if you look at news, or books, you'll see it's usually not; so we leave it lowercase (this one was not created in title case, but many are, and get moved to lowercase, like Extremely Online will). Dicklyon (talk) 06:03, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

I'd say the call for a content RfC is outside the scope of this ANI report. — The Hand That Feeds You: 16:08, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Outside the scope, yes, but not a bad idea. To the extent that issues continue to crop up with how policy is interpreted, we should have a process to refine those statements of policy to make it clear how it is to apply in those particular situations. BD2412 T 16:52, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

It is a bad idea, because it's the wrong process. Article titles are not determined by RfC, but by RM, which are near-identical processes. That is, WP:RM is RfC, for titles. That is to say, the RfC you want to see happen has already happened. Ergo, you are effectively asking for license to WP:Forum shop to a variant process any time someone doesn't like the outcome of the proper process.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:15, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

@HandThatFeeds: That's why I specifically said it should be started somewhere (perhaps at WT:MOS), which is where content disputes (i.e. the majority of this thread, unless I am missing something) belong. jp×g 19:48, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

As a side point: There is in fact a site-wide consensus on this sort of matter, named MOS:CAPS. The distilled gist of it (and its first rule) is: if reliable sources do not near-consistently capitalize something then it should not be capitalized on Misplaced Pages. Various editors dislike this rule and will engage in both logic contortions (and in this case even source denial), and a "never give up, never surrender" approach to get their way (in a vein of "It didn't work this time, so I'll try again later, again and again until I WP:WIN"). A few editors make the same already-rejected arguments in favor of over-capitalization dozens of times at RMs spanning years, and refuse to accept the lower-case results that emerge again and again and again. The fact is that as a WP:P&G matter they are in the wrong about the vast majority of capitalization questions. The seemingly dire urge some people exhibit to over-capitalize things (especially jargonistic terms particular to certain fields/interests, because people steeped in them tend to capitalize them when writing to/for other people steeped in the same topic, versus how general-audience sources – like Misplaced Pages – are written) is the no. 1 cause of disputation about article titles, and also the no. 1 source of strife about all MoS matters combined. This really needs to wind down, and that's not going to happen if we continue to permit individuals like Thewolfchild, and WP:GANGs of editors at habitually over-capitalizing wikiprojects, get away with aggressive "style warrior" battlegrounding about their pet topics.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:26, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

S, thanks for changing "Many editors" to "A few editors". It really is just a few. The vast majority of Milhist editors are non-problematic (except that maybe they hang back and are afraid to contradict some of their fellows). Some do speak up in favor of following MOS:CAPS on occasion, which is good to see. If I've come across as criticizing the project or its members, I apologize for that. But the project is the place where some of the over-capitalizers find each other and support each other without evidence, sometimes. Dicklyon (talk) 01:25, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes, the number of "defy the MoS until I die" sorts can be counted on one to two hands; "Many" got left in accidentally because the original setencence was going to begin something like "Many of these problem can be traced to editors who ...". Anyway, it's entirely appropriate in my view to take concerns to a wikiproject's talk page when they involve what amounts to organized activity on behalf of the wikiproject by some of its more vociferous participants. Wikiprojects – the principle purpose of which is centralizing topical discussion – can't have it both ways. If they want topic-related discussion that makes them happy to be gathered there, they're going to have to accept some critical commentary there as well, when it pertains to more than sole-individual behavior but pertains to group activity, which is the case here. It's always the case (cf. the bird capitalization fiasco, most memorably) that various wikiproject participants are not going along with whatever the "anti-guideline rebellion" is, if one is happening and is centered on a wikiproject. Being critical of the group for entertaining such unconstructive antics is not an individual crticism of much less an attack on every single wikiproject participant. People in wikiprojects also have to remember (and sometimes need to be reminded) that they are not walled gardens, private parties, or separate membership organizations. They are nothing but pages at which editors – any editors – can collaborate, provide information, and raise concerns that are on-topic (or in this case, on-meta-topic).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:11, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

@Dicklyon: Thank you for clarifying your remarks about MilHist. @SMcCandlish: For the record, I closed the RM discussion notice on MilHist talk because it wasn't about "critical commentary" but a mudslinging contest. And I still strongly object to Nick-D's original comment being characterized as CANVASSing. -Indy beetle (talk) 03:37, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for closing that mudslinging. As or the canvassing, I don't know how else to see it. These things get automatically posted to the project's article alerts, and when a member makes an extra special appeal for participation, it brings in mainly those who agree with him, as it did here. Nick-D's notice of 10:05, 4 May 2021 was followed by comments from members Keith-264 and Buckshot06 (and DuncanHill, not a member, who echoed him). They said nothing useful, but added fuel to the fire. Also SnowFire and Thewolfchild seem to be (in my past experience) associated with military stuff, members or not. I don't know who watches that page, but it didn't really need this extra call to action. Thewolfchild perhaps still carries a grudge from when one of his ship names lost its comma after a protracted discussion. Dicklyon (talk) 04:59, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree that closing that thread was a good idea. Has anyone suggested otherwise? What is Indy_beetle complaining about, in other words. Well, beyond the repeated obvious: yeah, Indy_beetle, you've made it clear already that you're upset about the canvassing claim. No need to beleaguer the point. And just being huffy about it is not a convincing argument. While the wording of the notice – delivered only to MILHIST not to any other wikiproject or other venue – was neutral, the intent and effect of it clearly was not, or the same notice would have gone to other venues, at bare mimimum WT:WikiProject Belgium. It was a rallying cry to MILHIST. It not having been the worst kind of canvassing doesn't make it non-canvassing.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:33, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish: That wasn't meant as a "complaint". In response to your previous comment involving "appropriate in my view to take concerns to a wikiproject's talk page", I wanted to make it clear I wasn't attempting to shutdown the expressing of concerns by closing the thread. The point about CANVASS re Nick-D and Milhist is because you are discussing the behavior of Milhist. When you are confused about something I say, you can always just ask me for clarification, instead of posing rhetorical questions to the whole discussion group and then condescend me. FTR, posting notices about RfCs, AfDs, etc. in milhist even though they are already listed at project notifications is a very common thing. Also, MilHist is actually active enough to where a notice will at least be read by someone who will go and comment. Speaking for myself, it usually doesn't occur to me post a notice involving a milhist topic in other wikiprojects because most simply aren't very active. -Indy beetle (talk) 20:18, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Nope, I posted a single comment about what I felt was an unfounded accusation and personal attack. It seems some others agree with me. I didn't initiate this and there is no ulterior motive. The whole comma thing was five years ago. I'd forgotten about it, perhaps you should let it go. - wolf 17:35, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

"This really needs to wind down, and that's not going to happen if we continue to permit individuals like Thewolfchild...". So, specifically naming me and me only? Out of all of this, the ANI, the RM, the MILHIST notice, how do you even remotely justify this? This just equates to another attack, bordering on some bizarre WP:GRUDGE, and if anything is the antithesis of "winding things down". If that is really your intention, then you need to let this go. - wolf 17:51, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

A contrarian view

Well, I'll call it a contrarian view here, though I'm not sure I wouldn't be in the majority if a truly site-wide survey could somehow be taken. I've never really understood why the editors within major groups of articles, with demonstrated subject-matter expertise, shouldn't be relied upon to decide the capitalization of those articles. A site-wide MOS that avoids repetitious subject-by-subject or article-by-article or even sentence-by-sentence debates over the same issues is desirable on many usage topics. Capitalization norms, however, vary widely from one topic or profession or area of expertise to another off-wiki. The efforts for MOS-driven uniformity in this area therefore strike me as unattainable, and the emphasis on the importance of uniformity as excessive. There have always been a handful of editors, I will mention no names, who push for lower-casing of article titles even where the editors active in creating and maintaining the articles, and with the greatest expertise in the subject-matters of the article content, all assert and offer ample evidence that upper-casing is the convention in those areas. For more than ten years, forced lowercasing of such titles has demoralized some of these editors, and I wouldn't be surprised if it has weakened some of their good-feelings for and interest in Misplaced Pages as a whole. With all respect to everyone's good faith here and elsewhere, I'm not convinced that these aggressive forced-capitalization-uniformity efforts are a worthwhile overall contribution to the well-being of the project. Newyorkbrad (talk) 07:02, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

• I totally agree. It would be much better for the encyclopedia if those with a super-human interest in fixing six million titles were kept well away from the dwindling community of content builders. Johnuniq (talk) 09:32, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

  Hey, John, if you're referring to me, note that I've created over a hundred articles and uploaded about a thousand photos, among other things. Besides creating content, I have a focus on style. Hope that's OK, too. I don't think I'll get to looking at millions of articles, but I've done case fixes in thousands at least; maybe tens of thousands. Do let me know if you see any I got wrong. Thanks for your interest. Dicklyon (talk) 04:59, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

• Indeed. Forced uniformity tends to have more downsides on a community level than advantages, especially when our house style is at odds with scholarly style. (The German Misplaced Pages's disgusting (to me) house style is one reason why I don't contribute to mathematics articles there: they follow some "official" recommendations that nobody else uses). —Kusma (t·c) 09:48, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
• I agree (per my comment below). jp×g 01:38, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

  If you can take a bit more "hectoring", please say what you agree with here, and why; maybe reference what I said to NYB below. I can see how one might legitimately agree with "I've never really understood...", but are you agreeing that "Capitalization norms, however, vary widely from one topic or profession or area of expertise to another off-wiki."? If so, do you have a reason for such belief? Or do you believe that "forced lowercasing of such titles has demoralized some of these editors" is a sensible thing to assert? Is there any evidence of "forced lowercasing" (against consensus in RM discussions)? I remain puzzled. Dicklyon (talk) 01:46, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

NYB, I hear you, and acknowledge that sometimes project members want to have their own project style that deviates from the central consensus as embodied in guidance such as the MOS. But members with that idea have not convinced even the larger project, in discussions where they've tried. And I disagree with your premise that "Capitalization norms, however, vary widely from one topic or profession or area of expertise to another off-wiki." That's not what's happening here. Military historians have varying styles among them, but do not generally capitalize "Mons pocket", or any of the other things that I've worked on moving toward Misplaced Pages style. A few do, but that's not indicative of anything about the "topic or profession or area of expertise". Rather, what you see is the tendency, in all topic areas, for editors to capitalize what's important to them. Dicklyon (talk) 15:22, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

It doesn't seem to me like there is a "central consensus" in this discussion, or indeed, in most of them, on what constitutes a proper name (which is the subject of most of the contention, if I understand correctly). I think that a guideline (or a guideline section, or a supplement) specifically outlining what a "proper name" is would go a long way toward resolving these; even in the case that consensus wasn't established, having the guideline say "consensus isn't established" would be better than having it say something vague (or nothing at all) which everyone interprets as obviously agreeing with them. jp×g 01:38, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes, indeed, a consensus on "what constitutes a proper name" is a tricky one! That's why at MOS:CAPS the consensus is around the more practical criterion "Misplaced Pages relies on sources to determine what is conventionally capitalized; only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Misplaced Pages." Dicklyon (talk) 01:50, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Oh, and the reason for the kerfluffle here is that an experienced expert editor/admin wouldn't admit that the term he wanted to capitalize was capitalized in only a small minority of sources, argued that it was "close to half" (which it was not, as I showed him) and that that should be enough in spite of the guideline, and then came to AN/I because I pushed back on his nonsense and those who jumped in with support with no reason given. This thread should never have been opened. But as long as you want to keep it going, I'll keep explaining and pushing back on nonsense. Dicklyon (talk) 01:56, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

With all due respect to NYB, the line between "expert" and "fanboy" on Misplaced Pages is not easily discernable, and I don't think it sets a good precedent to allow a small group of people to contravene MOS according to their own style preferences. -Indy beetle (talk) 20:24, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

The current situation is that there is a small group of people willing to spend days arguing about the capitalization of a title. That small group dominates MOS and then has their own consensus to spread irritation throughout the project. The issue is not whether This Is Bad and this is good—it's whether the benefit of this is good outweighs the disruption. There are lots of gnomes and vandal reverters, but there are not many good editors with specialty knowledge and who are willing to invest time maintaining core articles. Perhaps the benefit of all titles being perfect is not worth irritating those who maintain articles. Johnuniq (talk) 00:57, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Being among those who maintain articles, I can agree that disruption sometimes wastes my time and is irritating. Like when a user in a simple style dispute complains about it at AN/I. Dicklyon (talk) 01:20, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

MoS

After reading up on all the various pages, to see what the kerfuffle's about, and yes, I believe that much of this is well-intended, but really, the thought that keeps coming to mind is: are you all intentionally trying for a listing at Misplaced Pages:Lamest edit wars?

If the issue causing contention is some policy or guideline, and in good faith you all believe it should be amended, then please start an RfC at the VP. It doesn't matter how longstanding - if it needs to be amended, then it needs to be amended.

Policy and guidelines are only healthy if they are living documents, not stone-engraved aedifaces. - jc37 07:59, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

It's not clear what you're proposing to amend, or in what direction. The MOS is amended continuously based on discussions and RFCs and such, and the capitalization guidance has evolved to have wide consensus support. It is indeed a healthy living document, not a stone tablet. Dicklyon (talk) 16:39, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Also, there's no edit war related to this thread, so going for the "lamest" would be lame. Dicklyon (talk) 01:58, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Speaking of Hectoring (capped in honor of my old bud Hector Levesque, author of "The Winograd Schema Challenge"), I just downcased Winograd schema challenge. Is this "forced"? Is it wrong? I don't think so. I do such things every day, and seldom get any pushback, because it's right, within Misplaced Pages style, to not cap things that aren't consistently capped in sources. Dicklyon (talk) 02:32, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Persistent posting of unreliable sources and unreferenced edits regarding TV ratings

User:Superastig has been told in his talk page not to post unreliable sources such an unverified Twitter account. He insists that "he stands up" to his edits and continues to use the unreliable Twitter account as a reference. He also restored unreferenced TV ratings in two separate articles () and claiming his fixed something in the article.TheHotwiki (talk) 12:40, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• This clearly cannot continue. If this were a brand new editor, I would say point them at WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:NOR#Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources, leave a uw- template about it, and have a talk conversation with them about why proper sourcing is important. But this editor has been here since 2009 and absolutely knows better already. A topic-ban might be in order to prevent more improper sourcing in these articles, and the behavior does seem localized. It could even be a very narrow and specific one, like: "prohibited from using unverified-account social-media posts as sources, from citing sources challenged as unrelialble, from adding information without a source, and from using misleading edit summaries", rather than a broad ban from Philippines TV articles. This edit and one diffed after it are of especial concern as obvious original research (either that, or they're relying on some actual source which the editor WP:POINTedly refuses to divulge, perhaps because it is known-unreliable). While WP:V permits insertion of non-controversial information with no source at all, on the good-faith expectation that it'll be sourced later, in this case these claims are obviously being controverted so that cannot apply. Since Superastig postures as "stand up" for their edits, they must assume responsibility for them and for the negative pattern they are forming. This all seems especially boneheaded because the Twitter account in question (some random non-notable person going by Yera Calma and whose profile pic is a dog) is just parotting or claiming to parrot an actual publication which looks ostensibly reliable (Philippines Nielsen ratings), so the obvious thing to do is find that publication and cite the real thing. If it or another reliable source cannot be found, it is perfectly fine for WP's article to lack information on the relative ratings of these shows; WP:THEREISNODEADLINE.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:38, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Spamming of airport articles with useless charts

User User:Legion23 has added "Airport pax stats charts" to hundreds of airport articles. While the majority of them is useful, there are also dozens of others which are virtually useless.

Many charts present just 2 years of passenger numbers like for Braunschweig or Braganca.

Several others are showing only 1 (one) year, see here for Tortola, Qabala or here for Vila Real.

Historical data might be useful for someone - but in case of old data with just 1 or 2 years in plain figures instead of charts.

A 20 year old chart with 1 or 2 years does not make much sense, the same applies for charts like "2016-2017".

Unfortunately, a discussion on my talk page led to nothing. Instead, this user reverts corrections in irregular intervals, always repeating "please stop deleting".

Besides, the vast majority of his charts do not have a directly accessible source, but sources are only accessible through several steps via Wikidata. That means there is no instantly available proof of their correctness. I am not sure whether this is compatible with Misplaced Pages:Verifiability.

While many of his edits do make sense, he appears to be on a mission to put in such "charts" into as many airport articles as possible. Since the discussion has become stuck, I would like to hear the opinions of neutral readers. Thank you. --Uli Elch (talk) 14:32, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Everyone - please read the discussion on Uli_Elch's talk page first, with the template developer's comments. These charts will update themselves in the future as more data is added to the database. This template queries the Wikidata database and displays the data in it dynamically, when the user displays a Misplaced Pages page.

Line charts must have at least 2 data points (for 2 years). Otherwise a line won't be displayed. I didn't add empty charts (yes, I went through all European airports and checked what would be displayed, and didn't add charts to those airport pages that would have empty charts).

Braunschweig had 3 data points: 2015, 2016 and 2017, Vila Real 2016 and 2017, Tortolì 1999 and 2000, Bragança 2016 and 2017.

In Qabala, the table below the chart also presents only 2 years - by the same logic, is the table useless as well? Legion23 (talk) 15:15, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Reply - Please note: "2 data points (for 2 years)" is wrong - they represent just 1 (one) year, as in the Tortola example, from January 1999 to December 1999. --Uli Elch (talk) 15:22, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

In the Tortola Tortolì TTB example, the chart might indeed be unuseful as the airport is very small and looks to be closing/closed. But open airports have to get their own chart, be them small or with few data. It might be a signal to help find data and collect it, to improve data quality. Bouzinac (talk) 15:32, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Actually, we have uncovered an interesting issue with the Tortolì example. The data is available for even 3 years (1998-2000). Unfortunately, it is not passenger numbers that have been added to the database, but aircraft movements: 660 and 923. I suggest to go through all Italian airports that use this source and check for the same issue. In this source, page 32 (23 printed as the page number) shows comparison between years 1998 and 1999:

* 1998 - 923 movements, 44,412 passengers

* 1999 - 660 movements, 33,266 passengers

Page 44 (35 printed as the page number) shows data for the year 2000:

* 2000 - 906 movements, 37,039 passengers Legion23 (talk) 16:27, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Whether to include charts or not should be something agreed upon by active editors on an article; a decision like open airports have to get their own chart is something that needs to get consensus somewhere - probably the relevant WikiProject. As far as sources go, I agree that a Wikidata query is inadequate, especially since it links to bare URLs. Actual sources should be cited here. Guettarda (talk) 17:50, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

"Bare URL' (for Wikidata) are the very place where you can find the relevant number and check it. Better to have "www.someone.com/file/somefiledata2020.xls" than "www.someone.com". By the way, I've corrected Tortolì data (my mistake when converting the pdf). --Bouzinac (talk) 18:36, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Nah, a bare URL on Wikidata is a stopgap - it doesn't include an accessdate, or any information about the source. A proper reference over there should be an item that fully describes the source page - there's a reason you can use a Q number to generate a reference over here on Misplaced Pages. Guettarda (talk) 21:06, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

The tendency for people to use inadequate references like that on Wikidata seems to be a big part of the reason some people over here are so hostile to incorporation of Wikidata over here. Guettarda (talk) 21:11, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

From my experience as a DABfixer, I consider the quality of information in Wikidata to lie somewhere between Discogs and IMDb. Errors imported from Wikidata into English Misplaced Pages sometimes need a specialist to fix (which I am not, but I know one). Narky Blert (talk) 15:20, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Just looked at one, Brussels South Charleroi Airport. The numbers in the chart from 2010 and earlier are completely unsourced. In a normal, onwiki chart, I could now remove these ones, or tag them with "source needed", or something similar. Here, all I have is the nuclear option, removing the graph completely. This is the same issue we had with e.g. Listeria lists, which have been removed from the mainspace. Fram (talk) 07:56, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Indefinite block for User:Sportsfanrob

• Sportsfanrob (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This person is clearly not here to contribute, given their behavior. Their edits have largely been disruptive in nature, and this person recently made even more disruptive edits, after he was blocked for 3 months and entered into a period of inactivity on his main account. During this period of "inactivity", he engaged in multiple instances of block evasion, via IPs, which can be seen on his SPI page, and some of which CUs are aware of (including instances that aren't in his SPI archive). As such, I am requesting an indefinite block on their account. This person is a sheer net-negative, and net-negatives do not belong on this site. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 16:51, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

@Widr, Favonian, ToBeFree, and Spencer: Can someone please take a look at this report? This person just continues to cause more and more problems. Their history of block evasion and IP socking is also a real concern. Thanks. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 16:51, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

LightandDark2000, I'm afraid you need to give more detail and evidence for an indef block. Please link to previous discussions, diffs of disruption, etc. Fences&Windows 11:35, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Tendentious editing and general WP:NOTHERE behavior at Talk:Quantum entanglement

• 47.201.194.211 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

There's a bit of genuine entertainment value in being called one of those 'entanglement' freaks and seeing a decades-old physics subject summarily dismissed as all Voodoo, and a fairytale, but when the response to pointing out policy is You guys stop making lame excuses, I don't think the discussion is going anywhere. IP was blocked for edit-warring, then came back to cast aspersions, promote self-published sources, and insinuate a conspiracy theory on the Talk page. XOR'easter (talk) 17:44, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

How could you leave out the best quote of the section: The reason you want to censor the following sentence that I wrote into wikipedia is that it is an existential threat to everything you have been pushing for years? I mean, I'm used to hearing these kinds of things from the alt-med cranks, but I didn't realize that physicists had to deal with it too. Now I'm curious what nefarious conspiracies Big Physics (Big Particles?) is up to... Hyperion35 (talk) 19:43, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Oh, sure, we have quite a lot of it.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:50, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

This is the same IP that was the subject of Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1065#IP_disruptively_editing_at_Quantum_entanglement which is what got them blocked. Hemiauchenia (talk) 03:04, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

N-rays are so passé. Narky Blert (talk) 08:21, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

The IP has been quiet for a couple of days so action now is unlikely. Ping me if problems resume. Johnuniq (talk) 04:32, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Understood; will do. XOR'easter (talk) 22:20, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

@Johnuniq: it seems to be starting up again. Apparently now all physicists are in a conspiracy to hide the truth from ourselves. XOR'easter (talk) 22:24, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I left a warning at User talk:47.201.194.211#Procedures. Let me know if problems continue if I don't notice them. Johnuniq (talk) 00:19, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

User:Epictrex

Despite multiple warnings (if they didn't keep blanking them, they'd have around 10-15 for the last month to 6 weeks by now, here's a sample, with their reactions), editor User:Epictrex behavioral problems continue, and have been escalating into personal attacks and random nonsense:

• The latest , not just once, they edit warred over it, and . When warned at talk, here was their response and .

But that's just today. Here's the last month:

• Donald Albury was being rude and ignoring me, while blanking an article talk page. Warned here

• What’s wrong, did I catch you ref handed? You dummie., while responding to an admin who had warned them for disruptive editing. Warned here.

• Stop undoing my edits you asshole, while edit warring across 3 pages to insert unsourced material, despite having been asked repeatedly for cites, for weeks, and never having at that point used even one. Even when how to format and add references had been pointed out to them in excruciatingly minute detail, User talk:Epictrex#WP:CITE. Warned here Talk:Hohokam#Culture vs Civilization and here

• And let's not forget this little escapade where they used IPs to have an edit war with themselves on History of Nevada : , , , , and . Both IPS geolocate to the same place, which also happens to be the same place as the IP they used to vandalize 2 user talk pages several days earlier while in the middle of some kind of meltdown, , , and . Also at the point the edit war started, the editor had not been on wiki in several days, but timestamps confirm they used their named account within one minute of the first IP vandal. This whole thing resulted in an ANI report (Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1064#Epictrex in an unusual edit war with themselves), but when they hadn't edited for 24 hours, and no admins seemed interested in pursuing it, was withdrawn.

• "WTF IS YOUR PROBLEM?!!!! WDYM YOU “TRIED TI BE PARIENT WITH ME”?!!!! YOU GODDAMN KNOW THAT I AM NEW TO THIS GODDAMN WEBSITE!!!! DON’T BE SO RUDE!!!" and this, which was in response to this

• I initially began interacting with the user after they started editing multiple Native American and archaeology articles that I watchlist, and noticed they were being templated for many of their edits, most of which seemed to be inserting uncited WP:FRINGE material into articles or random changes that looked like experimenting with syntax/grammar/adding useless flag icons. I tried to walk them through a few things, stressed the need to read up on the policies everyone kept linking for them and that they seemed to be wholly unfamiliar with, stressed that they needed to experiment in the sandbox to get the hang of editing syntax, and pointed to the location of the sandbox multiple times. I also gave them the most detailed explanation of "how to do a cite" I've ever had to do in the 13 years I've been an editor here. (User talk:Epictrex#WP:CITE). As the last several weeks has passed, I've wondered if this is a WP:CIR situation. They aren't editing maliciously, they are not a vandal, and I don't think they are trolling us. I suspect the user is young and may not be mature enough to handle editing here yet. They are combative, they name call and engage in personal attacks at the slightest perceived provocation, they do not take criticism well, and so far seem almost entirely uninterested in learning what the policies are. And this latest incident calls into question if they can be trusted with the editing tools at all. At best, their edits where they actually add content with references are bits of information copied from other articles (cites and all, if they ever manage to copy a whole cite, Talk:Native Americans in the United States#I gave a citation, yet a bunch of people keep on undoing my edit.). At this point I'm wondering if a short "wake-up" block for them to contemplate policies and to realize if the persist in their current direction that their actions have consequences. I don't like writing reports like this, I don't like having to take the time to look up the diffs, and in all the years I've been here I've only resorted to ANI a handful of times. But after this latest instance (bulleted point one above), after repeated warnings from multiple other editors, this user needs a wakeup call. Heiro 06:17, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

At this time, Epictrex has deleted this case twice. This is precisely why they were brought here in the first place. DÅRTHBØTTØ _(T•C) 06:39, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

DarthBotto, Make that 3 times, as seen here, they seem to just be here for malicious purposes. ~ Ronja (u • t • c) 07:25, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

The diffs provided show Epictrex (talk · contribs) veering between the extremes of over-aggression and over-sensitivity (a total inability to cope with the mildest rebuke or upset). I'd go along with ThadeusOfNazereth's suggestion of a "a short "wake-up" block for them to contemplate policies and to realize if the persist in their current direction that their actions have consequences" except for Epictrex's assertion that there's a deeper underlying reason - "I just have bad anxiety and get panicked very easily". It looks to me that WP:NOTTHERAPY is the frame in which this should be handled. Cabayi (talk) 07:51, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Cabayi, Very good, I second this. A short wake up call seems to be exactly what the user in question needs at this current moment. ~ Ronja (u • t • c) 07:52, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

As an addendum, they also tend to IP sock when ducking out, just look at this today, , there are 4 or 5 IPs right there, all geolocate to Sparks, Nevada, same as the IP s mentioned above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Heironymous Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:55, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Blocked for 3 months for currently not being compatible with a collaborative project. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 08:06, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

ToBeFree, Appreciate that, thank you. Here is to hoping they come back and make productive edits. ~ Ronja (u • t • c) 08:14, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

No worries, and I hope for the same. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 08:17, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Suspected sockpuppet

Anyone want to take bets on this new account (Rui Beech (talk · contribs)) that has made 2 edits to an Epictrex draft is a brand new sockpuppet? Heiro 00:07, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Hi. Y do u think Im Epictrex? I ain’t no Dino. Also, I just know about the Kings Beach Complex and decided to add a pic of Lake Tahoe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rui Beech (talk • contribs) 00:54, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

@ToBeFree:, quack quack? Heiro 00:57, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

• The two posts to Kings Beach complex, a draft page that new user would not be able to just happen across, and not searchable. It was their first two edits.

• Rui Beech to Teahouse ( and ), see Epictrex to Teahouse here Misplaced Pages:Teahouse/Questions/Archive 1104#What should I do if I am being falsely accused of sock puppetry on Misplaced Pages? Can I get into legal trouble for anything I do on Misplaced Pages?. They have several more at Teahouse, all with the same pattern of overly long similarly worded titles, if I really need to go hunt them down.
• And now they have taken to trolling my talk page, and Heiro 03:30, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

I didn’t troll your talkpage, I was answering your question. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rui Beech (talk • contribs) 03:39, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Rui Beech blocked indef as sock, per loud quacking. OhNoitsJamie 03:46, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

@Ohnoitsjamie: While we're here, meet Zapientus, who magically appeared two days after Rui Beech was blocked and made the exact same edits to the draft page. What a magical coincidence. DÅRTHBØTTØ _(T•C) 20:43, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

User not discussing changes, continuing to make changes

Hi all - reposting as this didn't have replies - I have a very new editor, SkunkaMunka (talk · contribs), who has decided they like geographic relief maps in settlement infoboxes, which is nonstandard. They also continually edit warred with me for a little over interactive maps, trying to remove or supplement them with outdated or inferior maps. I opened a sockpuppet investigation because it's clear they are abusively using multiple accounts. There has been no activity there yet. I also received and responded to an email from this user, hoping to discuss and stop edit warring. I have not heard back, and since then, they have proceeded to revert any un-reverted changes and continue to convert additional articles.

In short:

• User changes maps to nonstandard or poorer maps with no discussion
• Short edit war ensues
• Brief email conversation
• I stop to file a sockpuppet investigation
• Days go by with no activity
• I'm filing an ANI as this user will no longer discuss their desired changes or accept anything different

Best, ɱ (talk) 13:21, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Hi Ɱ, after the first, now-archived thread about SkunkaMunka's behavior was created, they responded in Special:Diff/1021623639. Re-creating the thread without any indication of a) the re-creation and b) their reply is somehow suboptimal. At the moment, the situation looks as if we can simply wait for the SPI result, even if that takes a week or two. If this assessment is wrong, please provide recent diffs that show an emergency intervention need. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:42, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

ToBeFree, Ah, thanks, I missed the user's reply. I'll see what I can do for now. The user's conduct and bad edits need to change, and I can't do it without them reverting me again. As well, their continued bad edits across other articles need to stop. ɱ (talk) 22:12, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

If someone besides me could help reinforce that Misplaced Pages requires collaboration and discussion, and compromise isn't always the solution, that would be appreciated. ɱ (talk) 22:13, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

I often do that and have a relatively low hesitation to block users for disruptively ignoring community concerns (or actively rejecting them). I'll wait for the SPI result though, and for further edits. Please keep me updated. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:20, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice and input, @ToBeFree:. Following further discussion, the user has relented. I'll let you know if anything changes. Best, ɱ (talk) 21:57, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

User:SteveBenassi persistent disruptive edits: edit warring, refusing to discuss/engage.

User:SteveBenassi has recently been edit warring and adding disputed material (currently under discussion at WP:RSN) at/to the Eran Elhaik, Khazar hypothesis of Ashkenazi ancestry, Genetic studies on Jews, and Jewish history pages (so far) while ignoring edit summaries and refusing to discuss. Initially, the first page (Eran Elhaik), SteveBenassi added material, from a source which I believed WP:UNDUE and problematic. I tried to explain my reasoning in edit summaries, but he repeatedly reverted me seemingly without engaging with my explanations (after I had asked that he discuss and not edit war and announced that I would start a discussion ]). I then started a Talk discussion pinging him hoping to reach a resolution. He then reverted me again, and though another user engaged me in the Talk page, SteveBenassi never did (the issue then went to be discussed at RSN, with me and several others participating, where it continues). More recently, SteveBenassi has added this disputed material to another page (Khazar hypothesis of Ashkenazi ancestry), without ever having engaged in the discussion regarding it (either on the Eran Elhaik article Talk page or at RSN). I reverted him once there explaining that it was disputed and under discussion and asked him again (as on the other page) to discuss and not edit war. Since then, so far, he has added the same disputed material to two other pages, Genetic studies on Jews and Jewish history (and has added it, along with other somewhat controversial material, to the articles' leads), and also misleadingly marked those additions on both pages as ("m") for "minor". I reverted those edits (once on each page, again with explanations), but , since SteveBenassi has continued to persistently ignore edit summaries and requests/invitations to discuss, he seems likely to continue doing so.

Update: He continues to edit war. He reinstated the edit at the Khazar hypothesis of Ashkenazi ancestry page, linking a recommendation/suggestion User:Austronesier) in the RSN to justify it, despite the fact that the RSN discussio. has not yet been concluded/resolved, and he again misleadingly marked the edit "minor". He was reverted by User:Shrike.

Here are the pages' edit histories for reference:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/Special:History/Eran_Elhaik

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/Special:History/Khazar_hypothesis_of_Ashkenazi_ancestry

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/Special:History/Genetic_studies_on_Jews

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/Special:History/Jewish_history

Any attention is appreciated. Skllagyook (talk) 04:41, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

The user is currently engaged in edit warMisplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:SteveBenassi_reported_by_User:Shrike_(Result:_) and have broken WP:3RR also it seems that he here to WP:RGW as per his edit summaries --Shrike (talk) 19:18, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Since another report was filed on the other noticeboard (the edit warring noticeboard linked above) by Shrike, and has been addressed, it seems this report is no longer necessary. Skllagyook (talk) 14:16, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Respectfully I'm not sure that this report is no longer necessary. This statement in particular "I intentionally made a scene to draw attention to the Ostrer issue, I knew I would be put in wiki-Jail for a day or two, I thought it was worth it, and it worked, Huldra came to the rescue." would seem to strongly suggest that this user is not here to build an encyclopedia. Knowingly breaking policy because the punishments are "worth it" seems like textbook tendentious editing.NonReproBlue (talk) 11:28, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

@NonReproBlue: I think you are right (it is still necessary). I had not seen that. That diff you linked is a very troubling statement by SteveBenassi, admitting to tactically edit warring on purpose to push an agenda very much suggests that he is WP:NOTHERE, came to Misplaced Pages with a decided "battleground mentality", and that his recent semingly appologetic statenent at RSN ] was not accurate nor frankly honest. I think a new perhaps report should likely be filed (since this one has gotten little attention), but I'm not exactly sure where (for now I will modify the title a bit to reflect this new development). I'm not quite sure of what the usual protocol/policy would be here, but I will be starting a new ANI report, that will refer back to this one. Skllagyook (talk) 15:45, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Its clear that User:SteveBenassi is doing POV driven constant edit warring in multiple pages related to the Jewish rigins and should be permanently blocked from editing on this subject.Tritomex (talk) 18:36, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

@Tritomex: I respectfully disagree. I haven't used Misplaced Pages in years. I felt I was being bullied unfairly, I fought back, went to Wiki-Jail for 36 hours. Openly admitted twice in public what I was doing. I apologized. And will not do it again. See bottom of this post, I asked @NonReproBlue to make an edit for me. I have learned from my mistakes. Note: 3 people are bullying me, twisting my comments and lying about me. Thank You SteveBenassi (talk) 18:59, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

See ... search Benassi

https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Eran_Elhaik

@Austronesier: I added disputed text to Khazar Hypothesis as you suggested https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Khazar_hypothesis_of_Ashkenazi_ancestry&type=revision&diff=1022218010&oldid=1022203273 SteveBenassi (talk) 06:31, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

@SteveBenassi: I don't believe the disputed text should be added anywhere untill the issues discussed are resolved. That has not yet ocurred. Skllagyook (talk) 06:48, 9 May 2021 (UTC) @Nishidani: Regarding ... (3)DNA sequences obtained from a variety of Jewish mortuary contexts or even Natufian or other Neolithic/Bronze Age Levantine populations.. .would provide useful information about the nature of genetic diversity that is at the root of the Jewish ethnogenesis narrative. New research does exactly that, and it confirms that Zagoros/Caucasus population during the Bronze Age, and Today, contributed to the Genome in the Levant, indicating Elhaik may be partially correct that Ashkenazi Jews are converts from the north. See Graphical Abstract ... The Genomic History of the Bronze Age Southern Levant https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30487-6 SteveBenassi (talk) 07:37, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

@Skllagyook: See Graphical Abstract ... 3 lines from Zagoros/Caucasus at 3 different times including from the Bronze Age to Today. SteveBenassi (talk) 08:13, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

If SteveBenassi is to be believed, even one of the study's authors says "we can't be placed in the Elhaik camp or in the mainstream view". It is abundantly clear that there is an accepted mainstream model, and this is a single paper that challenges it. That is fringe. There is no other way to view it. If it proves to be correct, the mainstream consensus will support it, and it then would absolutely merit inclusion. Until then, there is no reason why it should be given such prominence. It is clearly undue weight. NonReproBlue (talk) 17:24, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

@Skllagyook: I emailed Aram Yardumian three days ago about the suppression of his article on Misplaced Pages, he responded "Dear Steve Thanks for this email note and the link to the Eran Elhaik wikipedia discussion page. That was interesting to see.

Your question about why our article didn't warrant any news coverage is a good one. First of all, it was just a review article. There was no new data or genetic analysis. Had we undertaken new sample collections or a new kind of analysis -- as Eran Elhaik has done more than once -- I'm sure it would have at least registered a blip on the radar. Review articles often pass unnoticed.

Perhaps also: our view of Jewish ethnogenesis is actually somewhat at odds with Elhaik's. You may be aware that I posted an article on BioRxiv back in 2013 that was very critical of his methods (i.e., using Armenians and Georgians as surrogates for Khazars). Since we can't be placed in the Elhaik camp or in the mainstream view, perhaps nobody really knew what to do with us. Perhaps in some ways it's a blessing.

There's probably more that could be said, but I'll leave it there for now and ask how you came to be interested in this subject...

Regards Aram" SteveBenassi (talk) 14:48, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

It's about Yardumian and Schurr's criticism of both, which I felt was undue (and I feel currently has undue prominence), since, like Elhaik, they take an unusual minority view among geneticists (seemingly held by only them), and their paper has not had any mainstream engagement (not yet cited, etc.). Part of my issue was the undue prominence it was given, especially in the initial form added by SteveBenassi, before Nishidani's rewriting of it, which I welcomed/was an improvement, but even after that as well. I don't know that I'd object to a short reference to it in the Eran Elhaik article, or perhaps among the other refs, whose prominence, per WP:WEIGHT, is not out of balance with other references criticizing Elhaik (which includes scientific sources, not only Journalistic). Skllagyook (talk) 10:47, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Your assertions that they are mainstream is belied by the fact that you have repeatedly asserted that they are challenging the mainstream view (and if you trust SteveBenassi, as it seems you do, so does one of the studies author's "Since we can't be placed in the Elhaik camp or in the mainstream view, perhaps nobody really knew what to do with us.") If they are challenging the mainstream view, they cannot represent it. If there is no mainstream view, they cannot challenge it. You say If the two authors here challenge an ideological meme, that is an eminently reasonable point of view, minority (though growing)", then you say that saying they hold a minority view is an "undocumented and repeated assertion". It seems that the real issue might be that you yourself do not agree with the mainstream view, which is fine, but that does not mean that you can add information in such a way as to emphasize what you feel are the shortcomings of that view, out of proportion to what actual mainstream RS say about it. Also, it seems incredibly hypocritical to talk of having secret info about Elhaik's research that you cannot go into depth on that proves both the mainstream and other fringe ideas wrong, and at the same time chastising Skllagyook for "exceeding your remit and asserting a competence, in a highly technical area of science, for which there is no evidence an in asserting your superior judgment". I think your personal feelings on this matter might be clouding your ability to neutrally analyze the body of RS as a whole. NonReproBlue (talk) 12:48, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

@Alaexis: Yardumian and Schurr are Reliable Sources for the Eran Elhaik Misplaced Pages page. I made two edits to the Eran Elhaik page, one on Ostrer "will not defame Jews" comment, and another on The Geography of Jewish Ethnogenesis paper, causing this debate. The point I am trying to make is, in layman's terms, are Jews a race or not a race. Ostrer and his camp say Jews are a race, they are more homogenous than not, they are closely related, and they are mostly the descendants from the Ancient Hebrew in the Levant. Elhaik, Yardumian and Schurr say no, Jews are not a race, they are more heterogenous than not, they are not closely related, they are not mostly the descendants from the Ancient Hebrew in the Levant, but are mostly the descendants of converts to Judaism outside of the the Levant. Elhaik is a Zionist but is not biased in his research, he says his intention was not to disprove a connection to biblical Jews, but rather "to eliminate the racist underpinnings of anti-Semitism in Europe". Elhaik's paper was highly cited, it created a firestorm, many articles were written about it, because it threatens one of the justifications for Israel's right to exist in Palestine, DNA. I think we should modify this to reflect the above "Yardumian and Schurr have criticized both Elhaik's Khazar hypothesis and the mainstream model it challenged, on the grounds that, in their view, both assume the same homeland-diaspora expansion model. As opposed to this, they view Jewish ethnogenesis as one rooted in multiple heterogeneous populations which, often after conversion, coalesced to form modern day Jews. " SteveBenassi (talk) 04:37, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

There is no need to panic remove this from articles. Its not the kind of source that will be disqualified for reliability. It may be out of scope for a biography but that discussion should continue at the article talk page."The Khazar hypothesis" saved lives in Vichy France. It should not be taken drastically out of its historical context to smear Elhaik. Separately, the Khazar hypothesis enjoyed a Muslim revival after the founding of the modern state of Israel and the English speaking rose to the bait but it's never been the heart of Zionism. SteveBenassi asks "are Jews a race or not a race". The answer was once a matter of life or death. But the "right to exist in Palestine" is not justified by genetics. The only place I've seen such rubbish claims is the The New York Times which is not a reliable source for science. Why would Jews who were deported to Israel by the nations that were ethnically cleansing them justify their presence in Israel by genetic studies? On Misplaced Pages we should not be "taking sides" but continuing to improve the weight or NPOV issue by discussion. Spudlace (talk) 09:34, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

@Nishidani: (and to any other editors reading) In the diffs you (Nishidani) link above (where I removed the disputed additions), SteveBenassi has added the them to several articles while it was being discussed here instead of waiting for the issue to be resolved, after having been warned about edit warring. That did not seem appropriate. He also added them prominently to article leads, which was also undue given that the the additions represent a minority view. In the case of the Jewish history article there is no other material referencing genetic studies, so adding it seemed especially undue. And he had almost completely refused to engage in any kind of Talk page discussion since the beginning (since his first edits at Eran Elhaik). As I have tried to explain, I do not claim any kind of special knowledge or expertise (I am not an expert), and your accusations - now of "arrogance" - are becoming increasingly personal and uncivil and beginning to enter the territory of personal attacks, which I would like to ask that you not do. In making the point that the new paper is strongly divergent from the mainstream (as we can be aware of the mainstream and majority view, from published research) I merely quoted (and refered to) what much of the research itself says/concludes quite explicitly. I can find no other published research (by population geneticists, the relevant expert community) that takes positions similar to those of Yardumian and Schurr. And you admit above they they are not of the majority view. I merely argued that their position is extraordinary and has not yet had mainstream engagement (e.g. been cited by experts) and this that some caution should be used at this stage. But if the paper is to be used in this or any article, which I concede that it likely will in some capacity, it should at least not be given undue prominence. Skllagyook (talk) 11:08, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

@Skllagyook: I am a Newbie, I don't know how to use Misplaced Pages, I was getting erased by three people unfairly I thought, I fought back, went to Wiki-Jail for 36 hours, made one final post, and this one, I apologize for my inexperience. I am not planning on making any more edits for a while, I got my message out, now I am done, and will watch others and learn. It was quite the experience. Thank You for putting up with me the past few days. SteveBenassi (talk) 12:42, 12 May 2021 (UTC) @SteveBenassi: Your statement that your violations of Misplaced Pages policies were honest mistakes from ignorance seems to be directly contradicted by your other recent statement on another page (along with the fact that you repeatedly edit warred and refused to engage in Talk after several warnings and explanations. Namely this statement that you wrote on your Talk page 36"I intentionally made a scene to draw attention to the Ostrer issue, I knew I would be put in wiki-Jail for a day or two, I thought it was worth it, and it worked, Huldra came to the rescue.". As User:NonReproBlue (who mentioned it to me at WP:ANI) correctly said, this "would seem to strongly suggest that this user is not here to build an encyclopedia. Knowingly breaking policy because the punishments are "worth it" seems like textbook tendentious editing." Skllagyook (talk) 15:54, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

My full disclosure is that I haven't read Elhaik. I was responding to the suggestion proposed above by SteveBenassi that doesn't mention Ashkenazi: "Yardumian and Schurr have criticized both Elhaik's Khazar hypothesis and the mainstream model it challenged, on the grounds that, in their view, both assume the same homeland-diaspora expansion model. As opposed to this, they view Jewish ethnogenesis as one rooted in multiple heterogeneous populations which, often after conversion, coalesced to form modern day Jews." The form of the Khazar theory that is taken seriously by scholars is not a theory of Ashkenazi ancestry. Khazar was a slur in Soviet Russia (basically calling them Turks and blaming them for everything, which we call anti-Semitism), and it was also a theory developed mostly by Karaim scholars about Karaim origins. The related Khazar hypothesis of Ashkenazi ancestry is not supported by any evidence, historical or scientific, and is not taken seriously by any scholars, with the apparent exception of Elhaik. I think we can call this fringe. Yardumian and Schurr are reliable and can be used in other articles. Despite the comments in the email, I don't think this is a new or fringe position. The well-established Rhineland hypothesis implies multiple heterogeneous populations. It remains controversial but it's not fringe. The issue of deleting the Yardumian and Schurr source from multiple articles as non-reliable came up. While there is no consensus here for that, it can still be challenged under other policies like WP:UNDUE. Spudlace (talk) 05:26, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Also ... See ... search Benassi

https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Eran_Elhaik

@SteveBenassi: Hello. Regarding the source you added, there are some issues. I notice you have re-added it twice witout engaging with my explanations in the edit notes. It will try to explain here and hopefully we can discuss it. The source's inclusion here seems somewhat WP:UNDUE given that is proposes a hypothesis that is strongly at odds with mainstream consensus, which is that moat Jewish groups (e.g. the Sephardi, Ashkenazi, and Mizrahi) do share a significant Middle Eastern genetic origin/genetic component with a common origin, and also carry substantial differential admixtures in each from non-Jewish sources, whereas this source "proposes to invert" the traditional model and controversially states that Jewish groups do not have a common origin. In addition, as I mentioned in my edit summary, its proposals have not been engaged with by other notable specialists in the field, and it seems not to have not been cited, despite having been published in 2019. Aspects of WP:REDFLAG seem to apply, particularly the first and fourth. From "Redflag", which explains:

"Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources...Warnings (red flags) that should prompt extra caution include:

Surprising or apparently important claims not covered by multiple mainstream sources;"

And:

"Claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community or that would significantly alter mainstream assumptions—especially in science, medicine, history, politics, and biographies of living and recently dead people."

These seem to apply here. And there (and there are not "multiple high-quality sources" but rather one source of unclear/debateable/questionable quality)

The authors, of which there are only two, Yardumian and Shurr, seem not to be notable in the field of Jewish population genetics, and their hypothesis here has not been covered by mainstream sources and seems to have no citations despite having been published in 2019. See here: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C33&q=Yardumian+Jewish+ethnogenesis&btnG=

The source discusses multiple papers (by much more notable and cited researchers in the area) but interprets several of them in ways that depart significantly from the conclusions of the studies themselves (which are that the aforementioned Jewish groups do share a significant common origin, as well as varrying differential admixtures from non-Jewish host populations).

For these reasons, the addition seems to go against WP:WEIGHT and to give WP:UNDUE attention to a minority position advanced in one relatively new work that has not been engaged with by the mainstream of researchers in the field (and thus it is unclear whether it represents a ballanced review). It seems best to wait until there has been some mainstrem engagement with its proposals before adding it, let alone as one representing as an authority, and the most recent one, on the subject in Wikivoice. Skllagyook (talk) 15:03, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

@Shrike: ... See ... https://en.wikipedia.org/Harry_Ostrer#Criticisms "Ostrer received criticism from Johns Hopkins University post-doc Eran Elhaik, who challenged the validity of Ostrer's past work on the topic of the origin of European Jews. Elhaik has criticized Ostrer's explanations for Jewish demographic history and Ostrer being unwilling to share his data with other researchers, "unless research includes novelty and strength of the proposal, non-overlap with current or planned activities, and non-defamatory nature toward the Jewish people."

Pediatrician Catherine DeAngelis said that 'allowing scientists access to data only if their research will not defame Jews is "peculiar"', and added "what he does is set himself up for criticism: Wait a minute. What’s this guy trying to hide?""

Ostrer is a Zionist and biased in his research, Elhaik is a Zionist and is not biased in his research. Why is the quote OK on the Ostrer page but not on the Elhaik page? SteveBenassi (talk) 13:49, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

You didn't explained why she deserve more space --Shrike (talk) 13:39, 13 May 2021 (UTC) She deserves the same space on the Elhaik page as the Ostrer page. This is a conflict between two people Elhaik and Ostrer, why tie the hand of one and not the other? SteveBenassi (talk) 13:49, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Ostrer's withholding of data in a science like most others where open access is a basic principle, is extraordinary and certainly does merit the attention it gets in that source. The woman is eminently placed to comment. I think her remark should be paraphrased, since it is too colloquial. This page is notoriously subject to attacks, and consistent attempts to skew reportage against a person who is, as subject of a wikibio, entitled to comprehensively neutral coverage. It is an obligation.Nishidani (talk) 13:53, 13 May 2021 (UTC) I agree that her remark is due to be mentioned, and I also agree that it should be paraphrased (both to avoid ending with a "?" and for due reasons as most of the other quotes are not included in their entirety) which I have attempted to do with my trimming of the quote. If you have a suggestion for a change to an alternative paraphrasing I would be open to modification. But SteveBenassi re-adding his preferred version after admitting he knows that it violates policy is WP:TENDENTIOUS and an ARBPIA violation. NonReproBlue (talk) 17:28, 13 May 2021 (UTC) Also note that the edit by SteveBenassi makes it seem as though the entire thing is a quote by DeAngelis; It is not. The part that is a direct quote from her is "Peculiar" and "what he does is set himself up for criticism: Wait a minute. What’s this guy trying to hide?". The phrasing "allowing scientists access to data only if their research will not defame Jews is" is prose from the article, and should not be included in the quote attributed to her, but paraphrased by our prose as I have done with my edit. NonReproBlue (talk) 17:34, 13 May 2021 (UTC) @NonReproBlue: I am not knowingly violating anything, so don't make accusations. I am new to Misplaced Pages, all I know is that three of you are bullying me. I also know that Israel has weaponized Misplaced Pages. What is really going on here? Ostrer's fake research says Jews are a "race", Elhaik, Yardumian, Schurr say Jews are not a "race", which threatens one of the major justifications for Israel's right to exist in Palestine, DNA. So we have the Left vs the Right on Misplaced Pages. Sad. SteveBenassi (talk) 18:14, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

"I intentionally made a scene to draw attention to the Ostrer issue, I knew I would be put in wiki-Jail for a day or two, I thought it was worth it, and it worked" Yes, you absolutely do know. Also your current line of discussion violates ARBPIA sanctions, which you have been notified about on your talk page, that prohibits editors with fewer than 500 edits from making any edits regarding the Israel-Palestine conflict. Your edit summaries, and statements like "Ostrer's fake research says Jews are a "race", Elhaik, Yardumian, Schurr say Jews are not a "race", which threatens one of the major justifications for Israel's right to exist in Palestine, DNA." are clear violations of this prohibition. NonReproBlue (talk) 18:35, 13 May 2021 (UTC) Requiring you to follow policy is not bullying, and "I'm new" (close to 4 years isn't that new, by the way) isn't an excuse for your continued ignorance after being warned repeatedly and blocked.NonReproBlue (talk) 18:38, 13 May 2021 (UTC) @NonReproBlue: You are a bully, I'm fighting back. I am not hiding anything. I have not made an edit on Misplaced Pages in years. My life does not revolve around Misplaced Pages like you. Sad. SteveBenassi (talk) 18:44, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Continued personal attacks like that will only reinforce the idea that you have arrived here with a battleground mentality and are not here to build an encyclopedia. If editing on Misplaced Pages is important to you, I would implore you to spend some time reviewing its policies. NonReproBlue (talk) 18:47, 13 May 2021 (UTC) @NonReproBlue: Its you attacking me, not the other way around. Your a Bully and should be reported. SteveBenassi (talk) 18:50, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

You are entitled to feel that way, and if you would like to report me feel free. I am not attacking you, I am explaining to you how the rules work. NonReproBlue (talk) 18:52, 13 May 2021 (UTC) @NonReproBlue: Report yourself, I don't know how. SteveBenassi (talk) 18:58, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

If you review Misplaced Pages policies as I suggested, the information will be there. NonReproBlue (talk) 19:02, 13 May 2021 (UTC) However, before you report me for bullying, I would strongly suggest that you read WP:CRYBULLYING.NonReproBlue (talk) 19:05, 13 May 2021 (UTC) @NonReproBlue: Your Bullying is real, like Crying is real. Report yourself.SteveBenassi (talk) 19:11, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

@NonReproBlue: References 30 and 31 are duplicates.

Aram Yardumian,Theodore G Schurr, 'The Geography of Jewish Ethnogenesis,' Journal of Anthropological Research Volume 75, Number 2 pp.206–234 Aram Yardumian,Theodore G Schurr, 'The Geography of Jewish Ethnogenesis,' Journal of Anthropological Research Volume 75, Number 2 pp.206–234 SteveBenassi (talk) 21:39, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Either one of you, preferably both, should drop this. Benassi. Israel has a perfect right to exist, and to deny that is very close to sntisemitism. The right to existence as a state is established under international law. Discrediting international law is very much what Israel's behavior in its colonization of the territories is about, so you are mirroring what you criticize. Israel has denied the right to exist of the state of Palestine, of course. Please don't reply to this. It is off-topic but needed as a reminder that, in this area, one cannot pick and choose what suits one in international law. If you subscribe to its principles (and that is a precondition for grasping the shocking treatment of Palestinians) then, automatically, you must affirm Israel's right to exist. I will be restoring Yardumian and Schurr in due course in a slightly different formulation, since no rational policy based arguments has been raised, and their elision looks very much like an attempt to make Elhaik some solitary, freakish, contrafactual POV fiend. Other people share his skepticism of the so-called mainstream view, a view which is hilarious because several of its proponents actually, in their scientific work, explicitly state that their science corroborates the Bible. In any other discipline, such a curious marriage of science and fiction would arouse extreme caution.Nishidani (talk) 21:53, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

SteveBenassi (talk) 18:59, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Francis Schonken

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Francis Schonken (talk · contribs) makes wholesale reverts of my edits, including these:

• Misplaced Pages:Status quo stonewalling Edit summary: (revert a series of unhelpful changes)

• Misplaced Pages:Don't revert due solely to "no consensus" Edit summary: (WP:Revert, ignore)

• Misplaced Pages:Red link Edit summary: (reverting a number of non-consensus changes to the guideline, take to talk)

I sought guidance from an admin and Francis Schonken participated in the ensuing discussion. Start reading here for the long version and here for the short version.
At one point during that discussion the admin posted:

@Francis Schonken: And with that you are edit warring...after being blocked for it, again, again, again, again, again, again, and again. This isn't the first time since I gave you a final warning regarding edit warring either, as you did so with this and . After that final warning and this warning I gave you, the only conclusion that I can draw from this is that you want to be banned from the project. The why escapes me. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:40, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

I ended my most recent post to the admin by saying "In short, FS continues to indiscriminately target my edits for reversion - acting as a self-appointed administrator to block my contributions to WP: pages. I hope you will advise me regarding how best to respond to this treatment." The admin replied: "I would raise this issue at WP:AN/I at this point." So here I am. Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 00:39, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

No editor or administrator has the right to target and revert edits just because, as it appears here, he doesn't like them. Francis might consider editing elsewhere before ummm.... trouble hits the fan. Littleolive oil (talk) 01:28, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

The discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Red link is about 10,000 words long. My overall impression of FS's stance is that consensus is not the same as unanimity, but so long as he is the lone objector to a small change, then there cannot be consensus. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:30, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

indef by Cullen328

• Good block — Ched (talk) 06:08, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

I readily acknowledge that many in the the community agree that Francis Schonken has contributed excellent content about classical music. I thank FS for their positive contributions. But for many years, this editor has had difficulty complying with our behavioral norms. As a result, they have been blocked eight times previously, for a year last time. Francis Schonken has been warned in great detail and at great length several times in recent months by Hammersoft, who has taken great care to identify the problematic behaviors and encourage improvement. Very sadly, FS has chosen to continue with their past pattern of disruption, edit warring and endless IDHT debates about trivialities. Accordingly, I have issued an indefinite block. Cullen Let's discuss it 06:18, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

• Good block — If it means anything, I almost never participate at ANI, and least of all to support or oppose any blocks, but FS's behavior is so repeatedly unproductive, I feel—for the sake of classical music coverage on Misplaced Pages—I have to come here and leave a comment. FS has managed to frustrate literally everyone I know in classical music community. Honestly, some of it is just genuinely upsetting. He's put off and discouraged so many people, it is a truly abysmal thing to watch unfold (a somewhat recent example that comes to mind). Tireless edit warring, no understanding of proper consensus, and extreme ownership ( as just a few examples) Frankly, I've found myself repeatedly worn out by his editing, but his inability to be collaborative is ceaseless, and I have never seen someone given so many chances. Aza24 (talk) 06:55, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Francis Schonken - ban from the project?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

On 10 May 2021 as a result of the discussion above, Cullen328 issued an indefinite block for Francis Schonken (talk · contribs). At the suggestion of another editor, I write to propose that the indefinite ban of Francis Schonken be converted to a community ban from the project and that, if consensus is achieved, the account be added to Category:Banned Misplaced Pages users.

I base this proposal on:

(a) the conduct in my original post (above) that led to the indefinite ban block.

(b) the history of (now) 9 blocks with no evidence that any of them led to long-lasting changes of behavior.

(c) the failure, despite being an active editor for more than 15 years, to understand (or maybe "to accept") how consensus works, as reported by WhatamIdoing above based on this exchange (see another example here).

(d) the continuation of inappropriate behavior after receiving a final warning for edit warring:

(e) the result, reported by Aza24 above, of putting off and discouraging many other editors.

--Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 18:44, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Discussion

• Support community ban: The amount of effort I've put into trying to avoid this happening has been rather large. I have found a number of troubling behaviors, some of which is highlighted above. I've repeatedly warned FS about their behavior to no avail. I acknowledge and respect their contributions to the project, especially in the realm of classical music, but very strongly feel they are a net negative to the project. This is most especially true with their distinctly negative impact on other editors. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:02, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support Ban unfortunately.
  • FS is an editor who has made significant positive contributions to the encyclopedia, especially in the area of classical music, but has also made larger negative contributions.
  • Their conduct on the content dispute about the sexuality of Frederic Chopin was also troublesome, when they tried to end-run around the RFC that I had started, by creating a separate sub-article, and then accused me of forum shopping.
  • I don't know why classical music causes so much controversy, although it is a great art form about which many editors are passionate.
  • Sometimes when the editing in the area of classical music gets heated, some of the editors should put on a recording rather than editing.

Robert McClenon (talk) 21:16, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

• Support. I've never been a fan of adding salt to a wound, but I'd also be concerned if an unsuspecting admin wandered on to an unblock request and granted a serial edit warrior a reprieve. Francis didn't even make it a year before his first WP:3RR block . The past year is covered above; but, additionally: 15+ years of disruptive editing does not make for a collaborative environment. Even after a 1 year block, within a month after returning they were trying to bully others.. When people tried to talk to them, they often were confronted with rudeness and snark. . Francis may be knowledgeable and capable of writing about the things he cares about, but he's shown no sign of being able to work with others. At the end of the day, I think a WP:CBAN is best for all sides. — Ched (talk) 22:24, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support—At this point, it seems like everyone has their own "Francis Schonken story". I could go in to the many examples of edit warring or extreme ownership (I briefly mentioned some in the thread directly above), but the most unfortunate thing is the constant bullying of editors. This entire talk page, resulting in the article's creator saying "I see you have taken possession of the article again. I despair. I've taken it off my watchlist and you can what you like with it as far as I am concerned."; this thread, resulting in the article's creator saying "I'll defer to others about what to do, and remove this from my watchlist". It things like this that show FS continues to directly damage the work of others, whether or not he is productive in his own right. So many blocks and way too many ANI threads, it seems this needs to come to an end. Aza24 (talk) 00:34, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support. At the outset I really tried to find the wording that would make FS look beyond his own desires to really collaborate with others. With one exception, he never did. He achieved editing almost solely through bullying, forcing people to see his side of things, and basically being so determined that nearly all editors gave up because life is too short. Yes, he did contribute some good things, but Misplaced Pages is a social encyclopedia, and this is an individual whose sole desire is to achieve what he sees as right and thus appears to be unable to collaborate except through bullying. - kosboot (talk) 01:10, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support community ban (with some further points). Many people have remarked on the issues with Francis Schonken's behavior and his edit warring, so I thought I might give a few examples of other issues with his conduct.
  • Selective application of and disregard for WP:NPV (), which he followed up with accusing me of violating NPOV and complaining about "drive-by editors" (of who I'm presumably one). All in all, a demonstration of extreme WP:OWN on his part (which other editors have provided further examples of).
  • A bizarre, selective understanding and/or application of Misplaced Pages rules (see for example and my response at ) and constant WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT.
  • Selective interpretation and definition of consensus () and openly expressing disregard for consensus that does not align with his goals or viewpoints ().
    • With reference to the previous point, the WP:OR and stubbornness exhibited by Francis Schonken at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of repertoire pieces by Ferruccio Busoni are astounding, as is the circumventing of consensus (including multiple RfCs) at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Schlage doch, gewünschte Stunde discography and Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Schlage doch, gewünschte Stunde discography (2nd nomination). The improper/disruptive behavior exhibited on the latter page ( will give you some flavor of the discussion) is a sight to behold, too.
  • This is one of the snarkiest (to put it mildly) comments I have ever seen on Misplaced Pages, especially given that it was directed at one of the kindest editors the project has ever had.
  • Many of the recent discussions at Talk:Frédéric Chopin were some of the nastiest and most heated in the history of classical music articles on Misplaced Pages (second perhaps only to some of the ones on infoboxes), and Francis Schonken was a major contributor to the hostile atmosphere there. Other have commented on his conduct in the various discussions on Chopin's sexuality, so I will highlight just one bizarre interchange: after I referenced some of the principles that Misplaced Pages is built on (), Francis Schonken asked me about their relevance (). I mean, what relevance could a Misplaced Pages policy possibly have to a content dispute?

  At the end of the day, these problems (which are just a selection from the last few months) may still be less relevant and intractable than Francis Schonken's hostile and toxic behavior, which others have remarked on and has discouraged many editors of classical music articles, and which on its own is grounds for a community ban. Toccata quarta (talk) 01:53, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

• Support I have, unfortunately, had my encounters with Francis (including long before I created an account - they were particularly BITEY back then). While they certainly seem to have made valuable contributions to the area of classical music, their behaviour within that area is, as evidenced by the examples above, often acerbic and arrogant. Coupled with their disruptive editing and difficulty collaborating, that seems sufficient grounds for a community ban. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 02:11, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
• Comment As the blocking administrator, I am not going to !vote, because I do not want to pile on. I chose to make this block because I have not had much if any direct previous interactions with FS that I can recall, so I consider myself uninvolved. I like classical music and many other genres but I am not passionate about it. My favorite type of music for daily listening is classic hard rock, but I don't edit much in any music genre. Over the years, I have read many noticeboard threads about this editor. Over and over, I assumed good faith in my mind, because FS is knowledgeable about classical music and I am not, and I want the encyclopedia to have good coverage of classical music. But their behavioral problems have not improved. Finally, I decided to take a closer look this time. I have to thank Hammersoft for doing the research and taking the time to give FS excellent highly customized advice in recent months, and I commend them for doing that work. It makes me sad to block a long time contributor. But when a person has been given and has blown chance after chance after chance after chance, the time eventually comes for decisive action. I appreciate the comments made here by other editors active in the classical music topic area, who have been subjected on a day to day basis to FS's disruption more than I have. To those editors, I say that I may not be among you, but that my decision to block was for you and for your benefit. Cullen Let's discuss it 05:03, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
• Comment I think others are more qualified to express an opinion here. My interaction with Francis Schonken was limited to matters of citation maintenance, which then seemed to escalate beyond reason. Their understanding of edit wars seemed alarmingly peculiar to me. Nemo 06:27, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support – I agree with what editors have said, above, that FS has contributed much valuable content, but a repeated pattern of bullying must not be condoned, and it is all too evident that FS refuses to learn that lesson, despite repeated warnings, advice and multiple second chances. – Tim riley talk 14:28, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support based on the affected editors' comments here. While Francis Schonken's contributions to classical music are appreciated, there is not a single editor here whose contributions are so valuable that we can excuse behaviour that drives others away from the project, particularly when so much effort has been expended to correct it yet the behaviour persists. Ivanvector's squirrel (/_nuts) 14:45, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support Blocked for an entire year, and then comes back and resumes disruptive editing? They are not going to change, and FS is a net negative. P-K3 (talk) 23:02, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support-ish, but what about T-bans?. I agree that this behavior pattern cannot continue, yet that it will continue if something drastic is not done (given the block record). I think there is one last step that could be tried, and this is removing FS from the topics in which he is most controlling and disruptive, which to my eyes are a) composers (in any genre) as biography subjects; b) Classical music broadly construed (including Baroque and Romantic and neo-Classical and anything else included within Classical in general parlance but not by musicologists; it's really a continuum of interlocking styles and movements and eras in music); and c) Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines (their editing, not their application). Include whatever else FS editwars and filibuster/OWNs over (I've not pored over the block log, but I imagine others know what those topics are). If FS can learn and demonstrate an ability to get along with people while editing random articles on salamanders and comic books and chemical elements and goat breeds and varieties of red wine and parasites of marine plants and whatever, then lifting of the T-bans could be considered, after a good while. But if the negative behavior pattern simply migrates to other topics, then we'll know it's a lost cause. (Maybe I'm being sentimental, after the irreversible loss of Flyer22 and SlimVirgin this year, who dated back to the 2000s like FS and I do; it's all starting to have an "end of an era" feel too it. Regarding the suspicion that FS actually wants to be blocked, that's possible; it wouldn't be the first time someone engaged in an indef trajectory to get admins to force them to quit WP-as-an-addiction. But it would be simpler for FS to just state "please block me", and then scramble his password, or something to that effect.)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:54, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

  "Art music" could be the term of art to refer to it. Or alternatively "Western classical music, broadly construed" (which would de facto include composers). I wouldn't oppose the above per se, but I can't help but feel like changing from "community ban" to "multiple topic bans in most areas of interest to the editor" is an unnecessary complication. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 01:22, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

  Never mind unnecessary complication, most of the behaviors on display transfer readily to arbitrary other topics. Izno (talk) 05:34, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

  Well, even if a T-ban blunderbuss is only effective, say, 20% of the time, it's at least a chance. But I seem to be outvoted on offering another chance.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  10:40, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

• Support. Despite the fact that at times I agree with Francis in content matters, I feel his near-homicidal level of hostility and bullying, especially in cases like the interminable ceaseless interactions with and hounding of MathSci, indicate that he appears constitutionally incapable of modifying his behavior to collaborative Misplaced Pages norms, even when asked and/or warned and/or blocked repeatedly. It is unfortunate when knowledgeable and often useful editors cannot conform to community-based work, but as DGG once said to me, "People are more important than articles." Not to mention, competence is required, and that includes social competence to be a cooperative and collaborative community member. Softlavender (talk) 01:47, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

AIV backlog

Esteemed admins, your attention at WP:AIV would be received gratefully. DuncanHill (talk) 12:01, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

DuncanHill - I'll stop by and go through it. In the future, this should probably be mentioned at WP:AN instead of here. :-) ~Oshwah~ 02:56, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

@Oshwah: Any backlog when you posted that will have been an entirely different one to the one I posted about nearly 15 hours before. But thanks anyway! DuncanHill (talk) 08:44, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

@Oshwah: Having seen how people get treated for asking there I don't think I'll take your advice. DuncanHill (talk) 19:08, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

DuncanHill - Oh wow... I don't blame you... :-/ ~Oshwah~ 19:16, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

WP:NOTBROKEN

Hi everyone,

I'm writing to report an incident involving an IP editor. 2603:7080:123F:ED8D:2D09:D05C:2072:3506 has repeatedly and prolifically made edits inconsistent with Misplaced Pages's policy against avoiding redirects, at WP:NOTBROKEN. I have reached out to this editor twice to explain the policy to them, and they have continued to edit wikilinks to avoid redirects. They also posted on my own talk page to let me know that they consider this policy "stupid". Not sure what the proper way to proceed is.

Thanks, Wallnot (talk) 16:01, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Honestly, looking at some of their edits, they are correct. Places like hatnotes and see also sections shouldn't link to redirects, as there's no reason not to use the actually bare article title in places like that. oknazevad (talk) 16:05, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

I wasn’t aware of that exception, but regardless, the bulk of their edits don’t seem to fit that pattern. Wallnot (talk) 16:09, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

There is at least one situation where a hatnote or see also link not only can be a redirect, but should be one: when it's an intentional link to a disambiguation page, and the disambiguation page is at the base name (WP:INTDABLINK). Egsan Bacon (talk) 17:14, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Another situation is if a hatnote or see-also points at a section of an article. If a redirect is properly {{anchor}}ed, it will remain correct even if the section title is changed or an article split out. It also looks tidier than Article name#Section title; especially if the section title (e.g. "History") isn't obviously connected to the word or phrase being redirected.

Another is if a direct link might look like a WP:EASTEREGG. On a DAB page, "], former name of Megacorp International" is clearer to readers than "Piffling Startup, former name of ]" - not so much there, but the natural tendency is for editors to copy the bluelink off the DAB page, resulting in puzzling-at-first-sight links like ], and hatnotes like "Piffling redirects here. For the company, see ].

Adding back (disambiguation) qualifiers is a minor bane of my life. I do a handful every day. If it's a registered user, I can often revert with a polite explanation (or if I've reverted them before, fix manually). If it's an IP, there's no point at all in doing anything other than revert (and check their other contributions for the identical error; -17 is a standard number to look for). Narky Blert (talk) 18:45, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

I've really got to make a template to say this, because I feel like I have to say it all the time. 1) No they probably should not be doing that 2) The appropriate response to them doing that is do nothing. It's such a minor deal that if they wants to avoid redirects, let them. This is the nonest of non-issues. We need a WP:NOTBOTHERINGANYBODY page for when people break rules, but where they're not really doing anything wrong. --Jayron32 16:48, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Something should be done if an editor is constantly acting against a Misplaced Pages guideline adding nothing of value, cluttering watchlists and wasting other users' time. It seems it's all this editor has been doing. Perhaps they think what they're doing is valuable and helps, and it's not until this that they'll realize their time can be better spent doing something else. —El Millo (talk) 16:55, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

If the main downside is watchlist clutter, then mass reverting just doubles the problem. Since some of the IPs edits are appropriate (e.g. See also links shouldn't be redirects), then reverting them creates both watchlist clutter and worse content. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 16:58, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

I just listed it as one more. I think that's actually the least of the problems. The main one in my opinion is the constant, and appropriate, reverting that has to be done. —El Millo (talk) 17:02, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure what part of what I wrote justifies the rudeness of the "Really?" edit summary to your reply, Jayron32, especially given that I closed my post with "Not sure what the proper way to proceed is". I didn't make some hysterical post calling for you to ban him—I just pointed to someone repeatedly ignoring well-established policy and asked what should be done... Wallnot (talk) 17:19, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) If the response is "do nothing" then the guideline should just be removed as pointless. In this case, I don't think that would be a bad thing. But you can frame basically any of the MOS as "not important enough to report someone" -- except that it is important to some people, and arguments between them are why we have so many rules like this. If the rules don't do anything to stop those arguments, they don't serve any purpose. — Rhododendrites \\ 17:22, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

No, it is not pointless. We do want to advise people to not needlessly bypass redirects. The advice is good. The problem is the rush to "punish" people who are doing things we don't like. The solution to everything is not "punish them". The solution is often "just let it go". The phenomenal waste of time, and the amount of damage we do to the community and to good faith editors who aren't really doing anything harmful or wrong, when our first response to doing something we don't like is "punish them!", that's a problem. It's fine to have a guideline that says "don't do this unnecessarily". But the solution to every problem is not "punish them". Sometimes, the solution is "tell them to stop, and why to stop, and then if they in good faith disagree, just move on". As noted, the amount of work to undo these edits is more disruptive than just leaving them be. --Jayron32 17:40, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree we shouldn't rush to punish, and I'm certainly not making a judgment that this case calls for punishment. But you scolded them for not "doing nothing", not for bringing it to ANI and trying to have them punished. I find that the "get over it, nobody cares" response to someone who took the time to learn our guidelines and try to see them followed is no less problematic and confusing than trying to enforce them to begin with. If a going against one of our guidelines is so unimportant that doing !nothing about them is a negative, then yes, the guideline is pointless and we should get rid of it or downgrade it in some way. Sorry -- pet peeve coming through. I think if we're going to socialize people to understand that guideline is second only to policy in terms of having broad consensus behind it (sufficient to be enforced unless there's a reasonable exception) then when new users who take the time to try to learn those rules (which isn't easy for everyone) turn to the "go-to-admins-for-help-with-a-problem" board, the first response from an admin shouldn't be to dismiss it entirely with instructions not to do anything. Regulars may think of this place as a dealing in punishments, but it's fundamentally a place to turn for help. At very least you can explain, for those who do not have the assumed common knowledge about what's important and what's not, why they shouldn't do anything about something that's reached guideline status here, lest they be left to assume guidelines aren't actually worth learning. (And again, I don't care about this rule at all). .... hmm I started adding a "sorry, pet peeve coming through" and it came through again. I'll shut up now. — Rhododendrites \\ 18:27, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

@Jayron32: Again, point me to where in my original post I wrote "punish them!" Because if memory serves, what I actually wrote was "Not sure what the proper way to proceed is". And for what it's worth, I was under the impression that this was a guideline worth observing based on my observations of the behavior of far more experienced editors like DuncanHill. Clearly I was mistaken, but I don't think that justifies snapping at me when a) I didn't call for the IP editor to be hanged, drawn, and quartered and b) very experienced editors continue to operate under the same mistaken impression. Wallnot (talk) 18:34, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

No, you didn't. You asked for general advice. You then called me rude for giving you my honest opinion. I said nothing derogatory to you or about you, I said that the best way to proceed was to let the matter go. When I gave advice, which I'll note you asked for in an open ended question, your first response to me was to call me rude. I'm not sure what you were looking for, but if you didn't want me to actually answer the question you asked, you should have said so. You could have saved me the trouble of answering of you had made it clear that you didn't actually want honest opinions on how to proceed. --Jayron32 02:03, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

@Jayron32: As I said before, I called you rude for your “Really?” edit summary. I’m not sure what you possibly could’ve meant by an edit summary like that, except something to the effect of “why are you wasting my time with this?” Don’t gaslight me. Wallnot (talk) 02:45, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

I apologize for that. The edit summary was rude, and I had not recalled using it, but yes, I did that, and you are correct: I should not have. I apologize for doing so. It was rude of me, you did nothing to deserve that, and I am sorry. My apology comes with no expectation of acceptance, but I offer it nonetheless because I was wrong. --Jayron32 11:53, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

That is quite all right. Thank you for offering your opinion and teaching me the difference between a P and a G. Wallnot (talk) 13:05, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, I must ask... What is meant by the second part of your sentence? I don't recognize the reference... --Jayron32 13:25, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

A Policy and a Guideline. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 13:30, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Ah, yes. Should have been obvious. Thanks. --Jayron32 13:52, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) See Misplaced Pages:Asshole John rule. Ivanvector's squirrel (/_nuts) 17:52, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm down for downgrading this from guideline status or otherwise getting rid of it FWIW. — Rhododendrites \\ 18:27, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

• This is a rule the community has set; it is inappropriate for an admin to be giving some condescending lecture about how OP is in the wrong for reporting it because it's "not a big deal". Reported user has been given a formal, final warning by an administrator, which is appropriate in this case. ~Swarm~ 17:04, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

  What a ridiculous overreaction. Misplaced Pages:Please do not bite the newcomers is also a rule the community has set, and this "incident" is well short of the level of intransigence that would warrant the wiping of asses with it that's happening here. Ivanvector's squirrel (/_nuts) 17:11, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

  It's not an overreaction in the slightest, nor is it a violation of BITE. The user received two handwritten messages about this last month which were ignored, which is blockable in its own right. IMO it was fairly lenient of Jamie to just issue yet another warning. I'm not sure why you're bending over backwards to pretend like this user is being railroaded for no reason. ~Swarm~ 17:21, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

  Not to take any position in the dispute, but if the IP is using the mobile version they just do not see the warnings.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:32, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

  You still receive notifications via the mobile version, if you're editing via the app I believe you do not receive notifications (unless it's been fixed by now), but edits from the app are tagged like this, which we do not see here. ~Swarm~ 02:10, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

  Tnx, this makes sense.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:22, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Please do not bite the newcomers is certainly a rule, and you may note that I politely posted on the IP editor's talk page twice, both times explaining myself, before reporting it here. The editor ignored those warnings twice. What level of intransigence do you think warrants an intervention? Wallnot (talk) 17:19, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Refusing to engage others is a blockable offense. But that should be what we focus on here. Not on the redirect issue. --Jayron32 17:42, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Leaving messages for IPv6 editors is nearly guaranteed not to work, their addresses change too frequently and our software doesn't handle it; don't hold it against them. I admit I don't have a better solution for getting such an editor's attention than bringing it up here, I just don't think this was worth the time. I'll also concede that's my opinion. By the way, if you want to chase the full list of this editor's bypassed redirects, you should be looking at the contribs for 2603:7080:123F:ED8D::/64 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial)). Ivanvector's squirrel (/_nuts) 17:51, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

For what it's worth, this IP editor clearly did see my messages, since they replied to them on my own talk page. Wallnot (talk) 18:05, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

They may have been responding to your reverts, which cited the policy in the edit summary. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 18:14, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Again, we're bending over backwards to make excuses for this editor here. They would have seen the notifications before they made their most recent edit, which was from the same IP address. It would be no different than if they were editing from a static IP. ~Swarm~ 02:35, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Ugh. My reply is probably out of place, the thread's a bit all over the place, but my 2d is @Wallnot: is right, @Swarm: is right, and Jayron32 and PEIsquirrel or Ivanvector, or whatever he calles himself, need to stop bending over backwards to excuse disruption. DuncanHill (talk) 19:19, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

• Any solution we have (range blocking) will cause more harm than the status quo. Accepting reality is not excusing disruption. Nothing wrong with asking the question though and I see no problem with the OP. Levivich /_hound 22:21, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

  Range blocking a /64 subnet is akin to blocking a single IPv4 address; it's low-risk and in fact it's the best practice as opposed to blocking a single IPv6 address. ~Swarm~ 02:40, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

• I owe Wallnot an apology - I don't want anyone to be discouraged from reporting what they in good faith see as a problem to administrators on this noticeboard, and I hope that Jayron32 would agree with that sentiment. I disagree with some of my fellow admins on what should have happened here, but that ought not to be made into the reporter's problem. Ivanvector's squirrel (/_nuts) 13:12, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Rachel Riley

Might want to change the visibility on these diffs as Riley is suing over these comments. diff, diff. Lard Almighty (talk) 06:31, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

To be safe, I've RevDel'd them. Anarchyte (talk • work) 06:38, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. Lard Almighty (talk) 06:40, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Anarchyte - Wait, I don't understand why these revisions were rev del'd. They don't seem to meet the the criterion for RD2 or RD3. Riley is suing over these comments? Where can I read about this? Sorry, I'm just confused here... :-) ~Oshwah~ 02:08, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

@Oshwah: See this article. I only RevDel'd the edits because I see no reason to keep content that she's already in legal battle about unless we're providing reliable sources that discuss the case, instead of just parroting the allegedly defamatory statements. Anarchyte (talk • work) 02:30, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Anarchyte - I appreciate the response and the clarification. :-) ~Oshwah~ 03:36, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

• Meh. This looks like a teapot tempest. There is somewhere between 0% and no chance at all that Riley will prevail in a case about "mere vulgar abuse" (see Defamation Act 2013). Accusing someone of being a Nazi and then complaining about the blowback? Bye, Felicia. That said, I can't see the revdels. But please: don't panic, Mr. Mainwaring. Guy (help! - typo?) 21:51, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Ruling Party BLP violations

User:Ruling party keeps adding back information sourced to an alleged US diplomatic cable hosted on wikileaks about living persons. This started in the Sisay Leudetmounsone article diff A diff B diff C but has moved on to the 8th Central Committee of the Lao People's Revolutionary Party article diff 1 diff 2 which hosts a whole list of members sourced to this cable. There is ongoing discussion at Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Sisay Leudetmounsone and Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#US diplomatic cables on Wikileaks (the latter started by me) which IMO is leading towards the cable being unreliable although that is also my view so I'm obviously biased.

I've tried to explain to Ruling party multiple times that as this concerns living persons, the information should stay out until there is consensus about the reliability of the source but they're not getting it. Note that the first two messages on their talk page were about the Sisay Leudetmounsone article, but the last message on BLPN was 8th central committee article. (The 8th central committee article became a problem when they effectively mentioned it on BLPN.)

IMO a block is justified but I'm fine if someone thinks they can get through to them via discussion. I would suggest a partial block from both the Sisay Leudetmounsone and 8th central committee articles sufficient for now or alternatively the whole article space. It would be good if they can continue to participate in the RSN and BLPN discussions and on the article talk pages. To their credit, they do seem to have stopped in the Sisay Leudetmounsone article for now, although there are 3 diffs, it was over multiple days so they're not close to 3RR. -Nil Einne (talk) 08:22, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Note in the 8th committee article, several sources have been added but they do not source the information. An open access version of the journal article is available here and it doesn't have a list of the 10th central committee let alone the 8th. While I don't speak Laotian, a machine translation of the 9th central committee list here also doesn't seem to mention anything about their membership in the 8th central committee. A source from 2002 obviously cannot tell us who was in a committee formed in 2006.

I'm also fairly confident that the Wikileaks cable is the only source anyone has found for a list of all members of the 8th central committee, since the only reason this started is because there was none but it was desired to show that Sisay Leudetmounsone joined in the 8th. Both me and User:Thucydides411 have looked as well, and it seems clear from what Ruling party has said that they too have looked and couldn't find any source for the whole membership. Instead they keep insisting because the information from Wikileaks is supported by sourced information for the 7th and 9th central committees, it must be correct.

The information sourced to Wikileaks is IMO not particularly contentious, membership in the central committee isn't a secret. The problem is simply one of WP:Systemic bias i.e. it's very hard to find sources talking about these older committees. But the fact remains, it does concern living persons and IMO it's not acceptable to use unacceptable sources just because we can't find an RS. As annoying as it may be, we need to keep the information out until an RS can be found. I have explained to them they could use WP:CALC and reliably sourced information about the 7th and 9th central committees to provide information about Sisay Leudetmounsone and other members of the 8th. I have also explained to them, as have others, that Laotian sources and other non English sources are fine. Indeed I even suggested looking into Chinese sources. So I'm trying to work with them to help them source the information, as are others.

Nil Einne (talk) 08:22, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

1. Very strange arguments: the 10th LPRP Central Committee is referenced by this http://kpl.gov.la/En/Page/Politic/partyx.aspx
2. you are right regarding the Creak source—its been added by mistake by me. It shouldn't have been there. I forgot to remove it or added it wrongly. Mistakes happen. That source is about the 10th LPRP Central Committee / Congress.
3. lists the members of the 9th CC.. That is.. the reelection column of the 8th CC LPRP article
4. The source from 2006 references the "old" column in the 8th Central Committee article. That is, those that were members of the 7th CC

To be honest—block me and I'll never come back. If there is one user that should be blocked its Nil Einne. Her bad faith towards me can be seen all over this edit. If she had asked; what does the different references source I could have given her the answer.. But she has never ever asked that question. He/she has been extremely uncivil (as I have I) and has done everything in his/her power to make the discussion between me and her take this direction.

If she had been willing to discuss, to collaborate and to find a solution I would have been willing to jump on it. But he/she never has. He/she now blames me for the discussion ending this way which is strange because I have written I will respect the outcome of any decision reached by a discussion when the discussion is finished. AS it currently stands he/she wants to block me and force her view on Misplaced Pages before the discussion even closes... --Ruling party (talk) 08:32, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

WAIT Can we hold off on any action? It looks like Ruling party has finally found a reliable source and while this still doesn't excuse their early BLP violations, per WP:NOPUNISH the problem may be resolved. Nil Einne (talk) 09:02, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

@Ruling party: to the contrary. I will always respect a consensus. I've said all along you can and should continue discussion even if the information is removed. Keeping the information out doesn't mean the discussion ends. It means the information stays out until we reach a consensus. You've been asking that we keep what I regard as BLP violations while discussion is ongoing which I do not consider acceptable. Ultimately the only way this problem can be resolved is via reaching consensus on the source, or finding a different source the only question is whether we keep the information out or keep it in while discussion is ongoing. No one has ever suggested a final decision is being made by keeping the information out. All that has been said is the correct interim solution, in accordance with our policies and guidelines, is the information stays out until a reliable source can be found. You say I've been unwilling to work with you. Yet I've explained to you in great detail on your talk page how you can go about finding a suitable source . I've also explained how you could potentially use WP:CALC . I've also asked you to continue discussion, and indeed even in this very thread, I said I wanted you to be able to continue discussion. I clearly never wanted to shut you out of discussing the issue. The only thing I want you to do was stop adding information when you lacked a reliable source. Since you believe the source is reliable, you are welcome to convince the community of this, although as I've said, 'there's no indication it's wrong' or even 'all indications are it's right' is not an argument well supported by either our policies or guidelines so is unlikely to be given much consideration. In any case, this discussion is probably moot. It seems you've found a suitable source. Great work! That's what we've wanted all along. It doesn't mean we were wrong to insist you find it though. Quite the contrary. We need reliable sources, if a source is not a a reliable source, it doesn't matter if we're fairly confident the information is correct it needs to stay out especially when it comes to living persons. Nil Einne (talk) 09:14, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

• Sigh, this is a very simple dispute that would have been solved quite quickly if a couple of people had actually listened to what people were telling them about what a reliable source is and is not. Despite having it explained to them in detail, or being here long enough enough they should know better. Thucydides411 in particular at the RSN discussion linked above is either being deliberately dense or lacks the capacity to deal in anything regarding reliable sourcing. Not particularly bad in general in the wider scheme of things, but absolutely a huge issue when it comes to BLPs. There are only so many times you can explain something to someone in different ways before you have to accept they do not and are unlikely to ever understand. And more to the point, its not other editor's job to do that about our core policies.

The sourcing issue was there was no reliable source available for a particular piece of relatively innocuous information. It was (for the time in which the various sourcing discussions at RSN and BLPN were taking place) included on one of the stolen diplomatic cables available on wikileaks. If the cables had been released by the authors/owners as a public document, then it would be a primary source and so useable to the extent primary sources are used (still very little on BLPs). It was not however, it was leaked and hosted on Wikileaks, which in itself is not a reliable source. Where secondary sources (research papers, news orgs etc) have commented on particular cables, we can reasonably use them (the news orgs, research etc) as secondary sources. While some news orgs have said the cables as a group are legitimate, none have commented on this specific cable and we only have Wikileak to trust that this cable is part of the wider group. "Wikileaks includes this as part of the cables, reliable sources says the cables are legitimate, therefore everything in this cable is reliable". This is far too many steps to assume reliability in a normal article, but since the actual potential harm is small, if it were not about living people, it would likely just be hand-waved away. Because it does involve living people, the demands for reliable secondary sources are significantly higher and more vigourously enforced. As a content dispute this is small beans, but Ruling Party and Thucydides411 should be topic banned from BLP's as I have zero confidence they understand WP:BLP and if you dont understand that policy, you need to forcibly prevented from editing anything involving living people. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:41, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Topic-banning someone for discussing source reliability on a talk page and at RSN would be an extreme action, and would have a chilling effect on discussion. I haven't attempted to edit the page in question, and I wouldn't edit it without consensus. I think my position on the cables has been reasonable. The US diplomatic cable cache is known to be genuine, so the question is whether or not a list of Central Committee members drawn up by the US embassy in Vientiane can be considered a reliable source. Thucydides411 in particular at the RSN discussion linked above is either being deliberately dense. From my perspective, the suggestions that the US diplomatic cable we're discussing might be a fake are far-fetched, contrary to all the reporting on the cache (which all describe it as a genuine cache of US diplomatic cables), and frankly are just fantasy. There's no actual question that this is a US diplomatic cable, but there is a question about whether or not that cable is usable as a source.

"Wikileaks includes this as part of the cables, reliable sources says the cables are legitimate, therefore everything in this cable is reliable" I never claimed that everything in the cable or the cache of cables in reliable. I merely said, as countless reliable sources do, that the cache of cables is genuine. Whether or not the claims made in those cables are reliable is a separate question, but the cables themselves are real. I've been trying to redirect the RSN discussion towards the question that is actually interesting - whether the particular cable in question is reliable - rather than the sidetrack (and unreasonable, in my opinion) discussion about whether the cable is genuine. -Thucydides411 (talk) 13:38, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

I share Only in death’s assessment of the competence of these two editors when it comes to BLP, they either need to demonstrate that they now understand it or stay out of the space. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:35, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

• In addition to the misunderstanding of BLP policy, there is also a misunderstanding of the vandalism policy. CMD (talk) 16:28, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Proposal

I propose a partial block from mainspace until Ruling party gets it. This looks like someone who is here to increase our coverage of an under-represented viewpoint, which is fine, but they need to learn the relative weight we place on Truth™ and fact. Guy (help! - typo?) 21:57, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

@JzG: Blocking me after the situation has been solved seems to be a good idea. No vendetta there. As I said before if you block me I'll never come back. So if you want the Misplaced Pages community to lose another contributor do that. But let bygones be bygones and, of course, if this happens again you can of course block me. This seems childish... --Ruling party (talk) 08:38, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

And no, I'm not here to WP:RGW anything. I'm just creating articles that are missing. I'm not trying to change anyone's view on North Korea, Laos or anything for that matter. I'm just creating articles that are obviously missing.... So if you want to block me because of that sure... I don't think many other editors will create articles om missing living people from Laos... --Ruling party (talk) 08:44, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

@JzG: Ruling party has since found RS for both Sisay Leudetmounsone and the Central Committee articles (see here). In doing so, he has aligned himself with the opinion of the rest of the community: WikiLeaks is replaceable by these sources and hence these sources should be the ones used. I do not think it's a matter of not getting the BLP policy. Rather, as we all know, it can be frustrating to spend inordinate amounts of time to go from what we know to be true to what is verifiable in reliable sources. That has only been made more acute by the systemic bias and language aspects of the topic, so frustration is understandable. But this is not the same as not getting or agreeing with the policy. Furthermore, it's been Ruling party's position throughout that sources that have been considered "generally" unreliable at RSN can be discussed, and there is nothing wrong with discussing their use in a specific article. Indeed, this strikes to me as a correct understanding of the BLP policy and something we do all the time. But to reiterate, we now have sources that err on the side of caution when it comes to BLP, and these sources have been uncovered through Ruling party's positive participation in the process, not because of any contempt for policy. (I am not an admin.) – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 14:52, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Micga's strange moves

This guy has made bold moves and been warned by a number of users. They don't have time to reply. I reverted a number of moves yesterday per a request at the WP:RMT but this user has made few other moves today. This disruption needs to be stopped. See this. Thank you. ─ The Aafī 17:25, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Courtesy pings Borsoka, Srnec, who filed the request at the RMT. ─ The Aafī 17:28, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

I've blocked Micga for 36 hours. I'm hoping that this will get their attention... ~Oshwah~ 18:36, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Oshwah, Thanks, this worked and they replied lol. I've posted them a note that if the behavior doesn't stop once the block ends, they might face an indefinite block for disrupting the project. Thank you ─ The Aafī 20:24, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

TheAafi - No problem! Happy to help! :-) I hope that they remain in communication and that they learn from this. :-) ~Oshwah~ 22:28, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your actions. Borsoka (talk) 02:54, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Chicdat's involvement in admin areas

Chicdat has been under a self-imposed ban from editing admin-related areas. Chicdat made a list of the serious mistakes he made and posted it on his talkpage (archive 3). It has become increasingly clear recently that this self-imposed ban is not enough. Please see the discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard#Kashmorwiki's_sockpuppet_block. He blanket restored a number of edits made by a sockpuppet and continued to argue he was a good-faith editor in edit summaries despite obvious evidence to the contrary. In a move closure today, he moved an article against consensus and inserted his own opinion to make a compromise. While it is clear Chicdat has good intentions, I feel that it is problematic that issues like this keep occurring. EDIT: He has also been causing problems outside of admin areas, with wikiproject templates and redirects (see below).Noah 20:34, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Merits of whether Chicdat should participate in admin areas aside, Chicdat recently expanded/reiterated their voluntary restriction at User_talk:Chicdat#Voluntary_restriction; that scope would include the Kashmorwiki discussions. The only assertion of concern you've linked since then is the closing of a move request on an article within the 'Tropical cyclones' topic area, which Chicdat is an active editor in. I'm not sure I would class this as an 'administrative discussion', but in any case Chicdat has an active and responsive mentor who they appear to be able to work with, and if you wish to discuss the merits of their participation in closing move requests I think it would've been better to discuss it with MarioJump in the first instance and tweak the restriction accordingly if necessary, rather than bring it to ANI. (I note that they were pinged here, but this ANI was started 10 minutes after without waiting for response.) ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:50, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

The fact remains, mentor or not, that Chicdat continues to make poor decisions in admin areas and other regions that others have to keep cleaning up. There are more issues, such as these: (breaking over 31000 links on a widely used redirect) and - he redirected a project template and broke multiple parameters on talkpages + he left the articles uncategorized for task force level. Noah 22:13, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Well, redirects are a very separate thing, and I wouldn't class that as an 'admin area'. I gather that you're looking to turn the voluntary restrictions into a community ban, but what scope do you think covers all the areas you're concerned about? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:21, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it does appear the issues are more widespread than I initially thought. I personally believe this user should not be closing any formal discussions where consensus must be determined, amongst other things. They should not be moving pages or retargetting redirects without consensus. Noah 00:33, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't like to be involved in administrative actions lately as it makes me stressed, but bringing Chicdat to ANI at this point of time is counterproductive as they has not, outside of move discussion brouhaha and this SNOW close (I may have gone too far in here but this is to prevent administrative involvement urges), done anything that can be considered administrative. Chicdat is currently not competent enough for administrative decisions, but as long as I can be active (not busy) and keep an eye on him, they will not disrupt anything and hopefully improve. The worst case scenario for Chicdat is probably a TBAN block which consists of indefinite partial block on Misplaced Pages:, Misplaced Pages talk: and even Talk: spaces but not a community ban, which I consider to be a reach honestly. MarioJump83! 03:36, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I know it. One day I will get indefinitely blocked. The day will come. The block button will be pressed. There will be nothing I can do. The editors around me have repeatedly tried to delay that day, and they have largely been successful, but the day is quickly coming. I will end up here again... and again, and again, and again. One day, the majority of editors will vote to block me. I get onto Misplaced Pages. I begin an editing session. And I get that big ugly message saying I am unable to edit Misplaced Pages. So to further delay the fateful day, I have just added another thing to my ban. Also: Please don't partially block me from Misplaced Pages:, Misplaced Pages talk:, and Talk:. Then I would have no venue for discussion between editors. 🐔 Chicdat   10:02, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

@Chicdat: Are you aware of WP:TPO? You may want to re-think this. DeCausa (talk) 11:21, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

 Undone. 🐔 Chicdat   13:06, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I personally think that this is starting to become a bit of a witchhunt, yes @Chicdat: made a mistake by closing the discussion on Bawbag and implementing a supervote. However, I don't think it rises to the level of shipping him off to WP:ANI and nor should every time he be shipped here every time he makes a major mistake. I have set up a challenge on WP:Weather specifically with him and others in mind and would like to see how he does with it.Jason Rees (talk) 15:35, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Chicdat, if you are seriously concerned that continuing to edit will currently lead to a block, then a possible solution can be stopping to edit for a while, until the situation has changed. Whatever it is. For many editors, their current age is such a temporary problem. If it's more permanent, this approach doesn't work. The only person who can assess and decide in this situation is you, yourself. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 16:57, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

@ToBeFree: Many editors (particularly the ones I have been in disputes with) have said that I am too young to edit Misplaced Pages. I disagree. Why, a baby could edit Misplaced Pages if he or she was constructive here! And in response to the other part of your comment, I just – feel unable to not edit Misplaced Pages. I think thousands of other editors think so too. So instead I will follow other editors' suggestions, add Noah's list to my restrictions, and hopefully avoid getting blocked. 🐔 Chicdat   10:03, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Chicdat, I have no idea how old you are, and I don't want to know. I'd just like to note that if multiple editors have expressed "too young" concerns and if you are actually young, then they may be right. And yes, a baby could edit Misplaced Pages if they were constructive here. The probability of such constructiveness is correlated with age, and a lack of constructiveness combined with a low age simply "fits the image". So I uphold my advice: Consider stopping to run against a wall. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 11:45, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Those colons! I will be very, very, very cautious in the Misplaced Pages: namespace from now on. I will limit my volume of bold edits. I will listen to other editors. I will remain in good standing. I will respect my ban. I will continue to edit Misplaced Pages. 🐔 Chicdat   11:49, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I personally think it would be helpful to Chicdat for the purpose of keeping himself out of further trouble, to teach him so he learns, and to prevent future harm to WP to institute some kind of restrictions (either formal or informal in witness of everyone here):

1. Chicdat should test any edits to template space pages in test cases to see if any problems occur prior to implementing them.
2. Chicdat should not move any mainspace pages and their talk and subpages without consensus.
3. Chicdat should not retarget redirects without consensus.
4. Chicdat should not determine the consensus in any discussions for a period of 3 months while he works with his mentor to go over how to determine consensus and practices doing so.
5. Chicdat should not be involved with sockpuppetry work, except in the case of reverting vandalism caused by sockpuppets. Noah 16:44, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Comment. These sound like reasonable restrictions for anyone who already recognises that they are still learning. There are plenty of other constructive editing tasks that User:Chicdat is welcome to carry out. Deb (talk) 10:59, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Correct. For instance, nobody has ever given me a warning for adding short descriptions, so I still use Shortdesc helper. 🐔 Chicdat   11:00, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

These seem very reasonable, and I would support them as an informal restriction that can be lifted when Chicdat's mentor feels like he no longer needs them. ( I don't think we are quite to the point of an appeal needing to go to AN.) Jackattack1597 (talk) 23:47, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

IPs changing "British-American" to "British"

This may ring bells. I have noticed a couple of IPs changing "British-American" to "British". 81.153.77.170 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), 86.28.105.236 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), 2A02:C7F:D436:EA00:7580:29B3:3712:3B16 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). Does anyone remember this sort of thing? DuncanHill (talk) 22:51, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

We had a series of sockpuppets and an IP busily changing "British" to "English" yesterday - this seems like a mirror image. Doesn't seem like the same person. Acroterion (talk) 01:24, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I love the fact that they insist that gaining another citizenship doesn't change your nationality. Apparently being British and taking American citizenship doesn't make you American, but being American and taking British citizenship does make you British. Canterbury Tail talk 02:00, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Hint to the clueless: John Oliver is now an American! Cullen Let's discuss it 05:41, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Abusive behaviour by IP editor 24.196.94.122

The IP editor at 24.196.94.122 has made a contribution to the talk page of Talk:Kenosha unrest shooting which involves multiple personal attacks. Bravetheif (talk) 05:39, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Bravetheif The IP has been warned. If the behavior continues, please report it to WP:AIV. 331dot (talk) 10:06, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

2021 Israel–Palestine crisis

Moved from AN. Beyond My Ken (talk) 12:47, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Hello there, this issue involves more than one problem so I've brought it up here. This mainly concerns User:Gianluigi02 and User:Selfstudier who have decided themselves what must be correct, but other users are causing disruption as well. In many conflicts, we have claims from two sides about death tolls. But here in this case neither side is contradicting each other. Of course that doesn't mean both are true.

But Gianluigi is only taking his own conjectures made in conjunction with the Palestinian statements which are being reported as true. For example when earlier Palestinian health officials stated that 30 Palestinians had been killed . But they never claimed they were all civilians. Gianluigi02 however inserted his own claims that 26 civilians had been killed , basing his claim Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad deaths of 1 commander and 3 commanders respectively so far

One thing that should be noted that the Palestinian groups have only confirmed prominent deaths ie commanders, they haven't confirmed how many militants or their members have been killed in total. But despite this Gianluigi02 continues to regard that only 4 (now 5 after Israel said it killed another commander) were killed.

Despite me explaining it to him many times that he's solely relying on Palestinian claims of casualties himself, he claimed again only 4 militants died and without proof claimed identity of 15 dead people (excluding 5 militants, 10 children and a woman confirmed dead) is unknown so far and they are suspected to be civilians . I couldn't find any source for his claim, and it's different than his earlier claim of 26 civilians being dead.

I later removed the commanders who have been confirmed as dead from the overall toll so people did not confuse it. Then I added that Israel claimed it had killed 18 militants

But Gianluigi took to reverting me and baselessly claimed that the Israeli source I used (Times of Israel) was false, even though it said it was claim of Israel that 18 militants were killed . Without presenting one thing to contradict it. He also claimed that the death toll of Gazans provided by Palestinian sources is also confirmed by Israelis . I have however not found the IDF or Israeli government saying so.

There have been other user repeating similar claims against Israeli sources like User:Selfstudier, to whom I pointed out that the number of dead Gazans was only based on Palestinian/Gazan health ministry claims and not independent claims . In response he said he has nothing to add beyond what he said .

By that I assume I he meant that I should add contradictory claims or the death toll being from the Palestinian health ministry . Thing is I pointed out earlier to him that Palestinians didn't contradict Israel's toll (neither Israel has contradicted Palestinians).

Also I had pointed out that regarding one side's claims as true and the others as false is incorrect way to do things, especially since Gianluigi is himself deciding how many civilians died using only the number of prominent militant commanders confirmed to be killed .

Later he got in a long-winded argument with others about Israeli sources like Times of Israel and Jerusalem Post being false . Per his claim Times of Israel was making false reports and did not attribute the number of dead Palestinian militants to IsGov. In addition, he says Jerusalem Post was paid by IsGov to smear BDS . This was said by him after I pointed out to another using disputing the number of Israeli injuries, that you have to prove a website deliberately reporting false news to prove it's unreliable, not it just being wrong sometimes .

Selfstudier used a +972 Magazine article claiming that Israeli government had funded Jerusalem Post's supplement against BDS discreetly, which it claims was revealed a freedom of information request. However as AlexEng pointed out the relationship between JPost's supplement and the State of Israel Ministry of Strategic Affairs and Public Diplomacy was never hidden . Even in the supplement you can see the logo of the ministry on the last page and the ministry's director-general delivering its introduction . Regardless of that it isn't the only independent newspaper to have a government-funded report once-in-a-while.

Even if we disregard JPost as unreliable, Selfstudier still ridiculously claimed that Times of Israel had made a false claim and didn't attribute the number of dead Palestinian militants in its blog to Israeli government and it had been removed from the article by an editor (which was Gianluigi02 of course) multiple times, in order to discredit the website: , , , .

However the source article he refers to quite clearly does attribute the number of dead militants to Israeli government source: Israel says it has killed at least 18 terrorists.. Me and AlexEng pointed this out clearly to him even with the direct statement , .

After this however he ridiculously started claiming that just it didn't attribute it because it said "Israel" and since the editor (Dianluigi) who removed it said it was false he agrees with him . After I pointed out that one editor calling it false is not evidence and saying "Israel says it has killed at least 18 terrorists" is attribution just like "India said x number of people died", he took to calling IDF as disinformatory and stated he believes it is likely ToI's source, but it didn't attribute them directly . Thing is no one said they have to specify directly who was it from. In addition IDF as we know is the military arm of the IsGov, and he was also talking about there being no attribution to IsGov.

Now regardless of what you think of IDF's reliability, Palestinian sources can't be blindly relied blindly on either. I did say this clearly earlier how GianLuigi02 is using them openly as factual and was using his own conjecture as to what they meant, but Selfstudier has no issue with it .

I'm not going to describe my whole talk with him since it's long but you can see it for yourself on the talk page.

I believe these two users need to be temporarily banned from the topic or have it at least told to him not to be biased towards any source, plus not decide on his own what should be correct. The others there probably need a warning too. The appropriate way to be regard either both as reliable or none as reliable and label which claim is Palestinian or Israeli.

While I don't like to point fingers, it seems clear that there's anti-Israel bias going on, where Palestinian claims are believed and Israeli claims aren't. These two actually aren't the only ones so I think the article needs to be monitored. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 11:56, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

@LéKashmiriSocialiste: please note that as noted at the top of this page you must notify involved users if you start a discussion about them. I have notified Gianluigi02 and Selfstudier of this discussion. -- Asartea 12:11, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I forgot about the notifying part. Sorry it slipped my mind and I was busy in something else. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 12:27, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

(1) I put a Arab-Israeli DS notice on LKS's talk page; the other mentioned editors have already been notified.

(2) LKS has a very interesting talk page, worth reading.

(3) This appears to be primarily a content dispute with a disagreement about the reliability of sources.

(4) The question of source reliability should be handled at the WP:Reliable sources noticeboard; off hand, I can't see the editors there deciding that The Times of Israel, Jerusalem Post or Al Jazeera is unreliable.

(5) Otherwise, the right place for settling the content dispute is on the article talk page, not here.

(6) It seems unlikely that an admin telling a possibly biased editor "Don't be biased" is going to have any positive effect, and also unlikely that anyone is going to be topic banned on the basis of this report, even if everything in it is perfectly accurate and not in itself biased.

Beyond My Ken (talk) 12:19, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

(7) This should be at ANI, not here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 12:46, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

(8) So I moved it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 12:49, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

To be honest, I think it should be at WP:AE. I do not think we can take any action using the current format. Unless somebody wants to launch an investigation of course.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:07, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I never said that the Times of Israel is spreading fake news. I said however that the IDF is claiming the death of 15 Hamas and PIJ members without proving it. There are no proofs of that. And no, I'm not saying that is false, it can be true that 15 Hamas members are killed by the strikes. However we need proofs, not claims without evidences. For this reason, I added just the death toll (which is at 53 dead now), without specifying how many were civilians and how many were militants. Or at least, now we are specifying those confirmed to be civilians (the 14 children, the three women, the husband of one of the women, five farmers and other civilians killed in cars) and those confirmed to be militants (3 PIJ and 2 Hamas commanders). The identity of the rest of the victims is unknown so far. So we should just update the death toll without specifying the identity until they are proven. Gianluigi02 (talk) 13:14, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

• Another argument for waiting on events to actually have time to be investigated and reviewed before rushing a half-baked article into main space. Tiderolls 13:49, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Actually it's not so simple Tide. Let me quote exactly what you said Gianluigi when you removed that Times of Israel source: "Also, I'm removing that false Israeli source". Anyone can see exactly what you meant. Whether the identity of others is known or not, I put 18 militants dead specifically as Israeli claim . This presents it in a neutral fashion and claims by both sides are allowed, so I don't get why you removed it.

This is not content dispute as you clearly have a problem with Israeli claims. Your number of dead (53) is directly sourced from Gaza health ministry : Gaza’s ministry of health said the overall death toll since the latest offensive began stood at 53, including 14 children. More than 300 others have been wounded.

So is Gaza health ministry correct for you but Israel is not? Also you have actually reverted more than once on that article in 24 hours. Compare and , and , and , and . Yes partial reverts also count.

Admins please notice this guy is point blank breaking sanctions by reverting to previous versions. He's also cherry-picking which side to use, siding with Gazans over Israelis when we should use both but cautiously. I hope you can punish him now. He has clearly violated the sanctions and rules despite being aware. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 14:09, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

But anyway let's believe your claim that you meant IDF and not Times of Israel. Why does IDF need to prove how many it killed? And how exactly will it prove? Do you expect it to release a list of names? Also why is that you're trusting Gaza ministry of health but not the IDF? You yourself said that the identities of many dead Gazans among the 53 is not known. They haven't clarified who they are. But how do you know they are speaking the truth when they haven't provided a list of everyone's names? This is clear open bias. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 14:16, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I do not understand what you aim to achieve with this, you are arguing about a source, so this seems like a discussion for WP:RSN. Perhaps make a post there and consensus will agree on whether the sources are reliable or not? Or are you arguing for sanctions because of a content dispute? CPCEnjoyer (talk) 18:11, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I do not think any of the sources are unreliable. I'm ready to use all sides but mark them as Israeli or Palestine in case they are Israeli or Palestinian government claims. Gianluigi however regards Palestinian claims as definitely true. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 06:17, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Could something please be done about Gianluigi02? He is now attacking other editors by calling their edits "false informations" , and has now (once again) removed neutral sources (that were discussed on the article's talk page ) in order to replace them with Al Jazeera , without giving any valid reason to do so. JBchrch (talk) 00:51, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Gianluigi is breaking rules, attacking edits of others, cherry-picking his own sources, while engaging in a clear edit-war. Can something be done or are we be to held hostage to what he wants? LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 06:17, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

What are you talking about? That user removed the updated death toll of 65, which was confirmed by multiple sources. He said that between 30 and 50 people died, which was not true. Gianluigi02 (talk) , 14 May 2021

That's not what your edit had to do with . It was about the number of children killed, changing it from 14 to 16. Another statement you changed it from "35 to 65" to 67 Palestinians killed, that statement wasn't added by JBchrch. You're referring to a previous edit where you changed the Palestinian death to 67, after JBchrch changed death toll from 65 to 53 and of children from 16 to 14, removed Al Jazeera as source because he thinks it's unreliable?

However, he did clearly cite neutral sources for his edit. This 53 death toll was reported by other sources too and dead children as 14 . I'm sure you were aware that was the death toll at one point. A few other sources did refer to the death toll as 65 and dead childdren to 16 , but it's much more likely he missed it and didn't check up the latest news. So you trying to claim you called a person who at most committed a mistake or disputing the number of dead children (which it was actually about) as "false" is a bad-faith behaviour. Why are you attacking people and their edits? LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 09:25, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Is this Misplaced Pages page not extremely suspect? The content's framing and the mono-centric editorial. — Preceding unsigned comment added by El-Baba (talk • contribs) 13:07, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes it does come off as slanted towards one side given how Israeli casualties are far more focused upon, even if that may not be the intention. It would need re-editing plus more sourcing for its claims. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 14:35, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Uninvolved non-admin LéKashmiriSocialiste, first, please be more concise. Second, please be more precise. Instead of long and vague arguments, post diffs showing policy violations. In the absence of such different, I doubt any admin will want to take any action. Jeppiz (talk) 14:50, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Jeppiz I've tried to be as concise while explaining properly. Second I did show diffs, many of them. So I don't know what you're referring to. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 17:51, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes, at that time it was a false information. At that time, 67 Palestinians were killed, and it was confirmed by multiple sources which I added. Those sources were removed by users who then added a lower death toll, which was not true at that time. So, I'm not in the wrong position. I was adding the correct toll with sources. Then, you are saying that I'm saying that other users are intentionally spreading false news. I never said that, I just said that those informations were false, meaning that they were wrong.Then you are saying that those users didn't saw the updated sources. However I added them and were removed. Gianluigi02 (talk) , 14 May 2021

Out-of-date information is not "false" information because it was made using reliable sources. You used something that is often seen as an unreliable source in the context of the Pslestinian-Israeli conflict (Al Jazeera). And that said false is incendiary since it can imply deceivement. Btw you don't know how many Palestinians were killed because it could be higher than what was reported. So if you fail to use reliable sources, that's on you. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 17:51, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Comment I don't want to cause offense but I suggest that this be hashed out on the talk page in the usual way. All of the above has been overtaken by events.Selfstudier (talk) 18:16, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I tried hashing it out with you, but the moment you started misleading was when I shouldn't have proceeded more. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 21:43, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

You mentioned my name here in your original post. I am still waiting to hear details of any legitimate complaint. Do you have one? If so, please provide appropriate diffs. Selfstudier (talk) 12:38, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't know what are you talking about. The number of Palestinians can be higher, or maybe not. I add what is reported by realiable sources, which I added, not only with Al Jazeera source (which is a realiable source despite you are saying it's not), but I added BBC sources too. Then, when I said 'false, I didn't mean that the source were, but that number was not the real numbee at THAT time. The real death toll was of 65 dead and I added it with multiple sources which were removed for no reason. Gianluigi02 (talk) , 14 May 2021

Not reliable sources. You are reporting what is said by Gaza ministry of health. So you don't know what is correct and yet you claim the other is "false" because they merely read out-of-date information. You know the reason your edit was removed, Al Jazeera is not a reliable source for JBChrch . What you're doing is bad faith. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 21:43, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm tired of repeating the same things over and over. You accused me of imposing my opinion, but you are the one who's imposing. You say that al jazeera is not a realiable source, while it is realiable. You can say that but I can't say that Times of Israel is not realiable. So what are you talking about exactly? And again, I also added the BBC source. That is not a realiable source too? You are the one who is saying what is realiable and what is not. Then, you are saying that the Gaza ministry of health is not a realiable source. He is the ministry of health of his country, who has those informations also by hospitals and doctors, so is a realiable source. While when I said that the IDF was not reporting any evidence about the toll of the militants killed (which doesen't mean that they were lying or that it was false, but that there were no confirmed evidences), you accused me. And I am the one who is imposing? Am I taking position? Probably, but you are taking position too. I wasted too much time repeating this over and over. Gianluigi02 (talk)

User:43.247.159.146

I have warned 43.247.159.146 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) sufficiently regarding their odd editing behavior of incorrectly adding spaces before commas. I already had to go through some of the edits and fix all the issues. But, this is an ongoing problem, and seems any type of warnings on their talk pages does no good. Their talk page is full of warnings, with no response from this user, and they've already been blocked for disruptive behavior. They made further edits after my last warning (level 4) (this for example, showing the grammar errors). Essentially, all their edits have to be fixed up by users and they have made no attempt to fix (this very simple) issue. They also consistently add unsourced information to articles by adding specific dates in regards to fictional content, another issue this user has been warned for multiple times going back almost a year. Drovethrughosts (talk) 17:27, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

User:Man of failures

Man of failures (talk · contribs)

Man of failures, a 3 month old user with less than 25 edits is removing content which seems like they don't like with misleading edit summaries mostly to remove content or to add WP:OR.

• Uses the edit summary Removed some biases in writing while they added more WP:OR.
• Uses the edit summary Removed some bias in the write-up as only the reserved category students and doctors were involved. while they add more WP:OR.
• Removes sourced content in Scheduled Caste and Scheduled Tribe (Prevention of Atrocities) Act, 1989 citing some IP address to be "invalid ". Invalid reference (Invalid IP Id), Invalid IP address of citation, Invalid IP address (Invalid citation). They had removed a lot of content in the article with similar "invalid IP" edit summaries.
• Removed content backed by a reliable source citing Write-up and citation don't match in Reservation policy in Tamil Nadu , again removes it with an edit summary blaming the reference number as wrong and asks me to show them where the content is a one-page online article Show me where this is present in the source. Additionally the reference no is wrong. , again removes it with an edit summary I can't find it while it is literally in the source.

In my opinion, the user is here to remove content which they WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT with WP:GAMING and is clearly WP:NOTTHERE to to build an encyclopedia. SUN EYE 1 18:33, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

User:SteveBenassi WP:NOTHERE: edit warring/intentionally disruptive edits

User:SteveBenassi made several disuptive edits in the past few days. He was blocked for 36 hours for edit warring, but has returned and claimed/admitted to have purposely broken Misplaced Pages policies to make a scene, with the intention of pushing a POV (stating that it was "worth it").

First he edit warred, adding disputed material (then under discussion at WP:RSN) at/to the Eran Elhaik, Khazar hypothesis of Ashkenazi ancestry, Genetic studies on Jews, and Jewish history pages while ignoring edit summaries and refusing to discuss. Initially, the first page (Eran Elhaik), SteveBenassi added material, from a source which I believed WP:UNDUE. I tried to explain my reasoning in edit summaries, but he repeatedly reverted me seemingly without engaging with my explanations (after I had asked that he discuss and not edit war and announced that I would start a discussion ]). I then started a Talk discussion pinging him hoping to reach a resolution. He then reverted again. Though another user engaged me in the Talk page, SteveBenassi never did (the issue then went to be discussed at RSN, with me and several others participating, where it continues). He then added the disputed material to another page (Khazar hypothesis of Ashkenazi ancestry), without ever having engaged in the discussion regarding it (either on the article Talk page or at RSN). I reverted him once there explaining that it was disputed and under discussion and asked him again (as on the other page) to discuss and not edit war. He later added the same disputed material to two other pages, Genetic studies on Jews and Jewish history (along with other somewhat controversial material, to the leads), and misleadingly marked those additions on both pages as ("m") for "minor". I reverted those edits (once on each page, again with explanations), he continued to persistently ignore edit summaries and requests/invitations to discuss, despite being asked and warned more than once.

He then continued to edit war even more at Khazar hypothesis of Ashkenazi ancestry and was reverted and reported by User:Shrike at the edit warring noticeboard (I had made an earlier report here before that). He was blocked for 36 hours.

After SteveVenassi's temporary block, I thought my earlier ANI report was no longer necessary, and said as much. But User:NonReproBlue informed me that SteveBenassi, far from having erred from an innocent ignorance of Misplaced Pages's policies, as he claimed at WP:RSN (here ]), had, by his own admission elewhere, used edit warring and refusal to discuss as a calculated tactic to push an agenda (by purposely "making a scene"). On his own Talk page, SteveBenassi admitted: "I intentionally made a scene to draw attention to the Ostrer issue, I knew I would be put in wiki-Jail for a day or two, I thought it was worth it, and it worked, Huldra came to the rescue." ] That was in direct contradiction to another claim he made around the same time that his policy violations had been the of honest unfamiliarity (being "a newbie" and "not knowing how to use Misplaced Pages") (here again, as linked above ]), which since he had been repeatedly warned while at that time, seemed unlikely, and given his admission quoted/linked above, now seems less than dishonest.

This is troubling and seems to show that this user is not here to build an encyclopedia. (knowingly breaking policy because the punishments were "worth it"). This seems to show that he entered Misplaced Pages (or at least that section of it) with a battleground mentality, a lack of good faith, and a WP:TENDENTIOUS orientation.

I initially filed a report here (] In response to the edit warring. Due to this new information, I am filing this new report.

Any attention to this matter is greatly appreciated. Skllagyook (talk) 19:19, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

And now he has gone right back to re-adding the same edit with the same summary . Hopefully an admin takes a look at this soon as there is no sign that he will stop the tendentious editing. NonReproBlue (talk) 17:40, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Pinging @Ohnoitsjamie:, the admin who issued the block, they should probably be informed. NonReproBlue (talk) 17:52, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

@NonReproBlue: and @Ohnoitsjamie:, I noticed here ], though SteveBenassi claims he will no longer edit (because he accomplished what he wanted by "making a scene"). But also again states his WP:TENDENTIOUS/partisan/WP:BATTLEGROUND intentions, when he says, speaking of his earlier edit warring, that "I did this for you and Elhaik" (Elhaik being a highly controversial researcher). It is concerning. Not surprisingly he is edit warring again. Skllagyook (talk) 19:05, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

CSD Abuse

User:DJRSD has been arbitrarily tagging pages for CSD. While some of these have been helpful, he has been warned twice about false tags and continues to tag pages that blatantly meet Misplaced Pages:Credible claim of significance. Some of these have been good faith, and I don't believe that a total ban is necessary. Is there a way to limit tagging abilities? Thanks in advance! Carwile2 19:16, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Waiting for a statement from DJRSD. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 20:56, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Carwile2 - The only way to "limit" one's ability to tag a page for speedy deletion would be to block them. This obviously isn't necessary. I think the best solution here would be to ask that they review and understand what constitutes credible significance, and ask that they take more care and time to review articles before they tag them for A7. :-) ~Oshwah~ 23:53, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Strictly speaking yes, but there are people on WP:EDR for CSD-related issues. (No opinion yet on the merits of the individual case.) Vaticidalprophet 01:24, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Vaticidalprophet - Oh, sure there are, but I don't think this situation merits a ban yet. Not by far. I think as a first step, we need to reach out to the user and educate them and ask them to review this page and give the user time to improve before we resort to any further action. :-) ~Oshwah~ 02:48, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Hi Everyone, and thank you ToBeFree for notifying me. I didn't do any CSD tagging arbitrarily. Each speedy is under Wiki guidelines. If i am wrong anywhere, kindly accept my apologies in advance. If you see my previous CSD that were also not wrong, though one user notify me for those CSD tag. DJRSD (talk) 05:12, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your response @DJRSD:. We appreciate that you are acting in good faith here, but from what I see you are making mistakes at far too great a rate in terms of inappropriate tagging of articles. My suggestion is to slow down, listen to experienced editors who have been here much longer and know the standards, and try to learn to be better. Perfection is not required, but improvement is. While I don't think you need to be sanctions as yet, continued problems could lead to something like a ban on tagging articles for deletion. Please take the advice of others on board, and we're looking forward to your improvement in this area. --Jayron32 17:48, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Thank You Jayron32, I will follow your advice. DJRSD (talk) 01:30, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Welshale and Srodgers1701

Welshale (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Srodgers1701 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I'd take this to WP:SPI but it's urgent and the socking is so obvious that ANI seemed a better fit. See this edit on my talk where Welshale admits to being Srodgers. This traces to a content dispute at Dalia Gebrial, in which I removed poorly sourced biographical info per WP:BLP. Welshale/Srodgers1701 is now coming after me in unrelated articles (see Special:Diff/1022895047). AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 03:57, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

 Unrelated as far as checkuser evidence goes, but I still blocked the user per WP:NOTHERE. ~Oshwah~ 04:36, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Personal attacks and incivility by Getabrainmorans

• 12 May 2021: "oxbridge dumbasses can't even quote people properly"
• 12 May 2021: "wikipedia dumbasses can't even link things properly"
• 13 May 2021: "‎i know you've based your entire wikipedia career around sucking this guy's cock like an industrial pressure pump ..."

Reported by isento (talk) 12:10, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I've left a message with the user here asking them to stop. ~Oshwah~ 17:14, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Looking at their username, I would say a "visit" to WP:UAA is in order. Toccata quarta (talk) 17:17, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

No need for a visit - I've blocked them. If someone wants to watch their userpage for responses to this thread that can be copied here, that would be great. Guettarda (talk) 17:22, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I just got pinged there with this: "... you ran to the mods like a pussy, huh. also, if you'd have any reading comprehension, you'd realize the thing about wikipedia dumbasses was a self-effacing dig at a mistake of my own, you know, the type of thing you tried to pull off and failed miserably at, like a fucking, well, dumbass." isento (talk) 00:57, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

I removed talkpage access. Killiondude (talk) 02:08, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Legal threat

Maje020 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) I reverted said user's edits as disruptive and warned them. They said that the info was based on the Hungarian Misplaced Pages page, so linked them to the BLP policy and WP:CIRCULAR, and reverted their reinstatement for BLP concerns. They undid me and made a somewhat vague threat here, saying that they are considering reporting me. That's a clear NLT vio I think. JavaHurricane 12:15, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, blocked. Any admin may lift the block once they demonstrate an understanding of WP:NLT and retract the threats. --Yamla (talk) 12:36, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! JavaHurricane 12:49, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

"He only speakes Hungarian." – What a weird thing to say about a living person in their biography. I will remove that and start a new discussion at Biographies of living persons noticeboard. Politrukki (talk) 14:52, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

The statement about the language skills that JavaHurricane reinstated (which Maje020 tried to remove) actually was sourced to obviously biased sources. Maje020 was right to remove the statement and JavaHurricane was wrong to reinstate it. I think it's a heated topic and Maje020 got frustrated, which I can understand. @Yamla: Maje020 said "you can end up on court to publish lies" (in Hungary, who knows?) and after their first signature (two replies in one edit) "I don't stop delete that lie and I am busy to find the possibility to report you for spreading liese". IMHO we should WP:AGF and assume Maje020 wanted to report the issue to the admins. Despite this, Maje020 should probably WP:DOGGY as they appear to be maybe a bit too passionate about this topic. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 04:08, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Bummer, Maje020 really has to retract that before they can be unblocked. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 04:23, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

User:ClueBot NG is malfunctioning

Made edit on very large page (List of Top Level Domains) to make tables collapsible, but cluebot reverted it immediately. Some tables were set to auto collapse, however these were only tables. Also forgot to mark as minor edit since it was a formatting issue, but it still got reverted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by UppercutPawnch (talk • contribs) 12:30, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

@UppercutPawnch: Is this a systematic problem? If it is, please list the diffs. Otherwise, this is just a plain old false positive. It happens. pandakekok9 (talk) 12:40, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

@Pandakekok9: Yeah it's just a false positive. Didn't read the cluebot message I got on my user page all the way. Sorry, but thanks for reverting for me. UppercutPawnch (talk) 12:47, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

46.97.170.0/24

Individual IPs:

• 46.97.170.78 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 46.97.170.112 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 46.97.170.19 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 46.97.170.253 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Range:

• 46.97.170.0/24 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

• Previous ANI report: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1038#Personal attacks, BLP attack etc. by 46.97.170.78

• BLPN Discussion: Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Gina Carano

User appears to be here for the sole purpose of bludgeoning, picking fights and pushing a particular POV.

• "it is a well known fact that Hungary is, and to some degree always has been a hotbed of right wing populism and nationalist sentiments"
• "There is no "left" on wikipedia. But if right wingers want to win more edit wars, they should care more about objective facts."
• "look at the kind of people who make it their business to regugularly defend him. You will notice that all of them are either republican pundits, or alt-right/alt-lite influencers. "
• "This is what I meant when I said that Babylon Bee is no different from any other right wing disinfo site. Fox, OAN, Newsmax, Bounding into Comics, you name it, they're all the same."
• "Evidence? You mean aside from every single breadtuber that ever analyzed his ideologies in depth, and aside from the fact that all of Jordan Peterson's fans on youtube are members of or associated with the alt right? I souldn't need to prove what's common knowledge and easily verifyable."
• "I called Ben Shapiro a far right grifter, because that is what he is."
• "Also, no mention that her holocaust comments were interpreted as comparing American conservatives to Jews in Nazi Germany"
• "The point is that putting Peterson's words into the mouth of a skull faced nazi character makes them sound like a villain monologue. But Peterson apologists are too devoid of self awareness to realize that."
• "We're talking about a newspaper that FIRED a long time employee because he wasn't a trump bootlicker, and prohibited a reporter from covering the George Floyd protests on basis of skin color. I'd be very disappointed if I looked at Misplaced Pages's list of reliable sources and learned that it wasn't blacklisted like Breitbart, the Daily Wire or other right wing trumpist rags." (He is talking about the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette)
• "I only brought up Trump because like Peterson, he's a symptom of the same cancer that's destroying modern society. Yes, one had actual political power, and nearly destroyed the country. But people like Peterson are part of the reason there are people dumb enough to actually vote for trump. Their carreer's are uncomparable, but they represent the same toxic far right ideology."
• "The first paragraph of the section is nothing but right wing pundits flapping their mouths and spouting right wing punditry, and should be deleted entirely."

Also:

• Deleting other user's talk page comments. (The deleted comment was right-wing stupidity, but no worse than what 46.97.170.0/24 regularly posts.)
• Removing sources because "they are agenda driven"

--Guy Macon (talk) 15:30, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Two things before I address the broader issue: Firstly, my IP cnages periodically and unpredictably, and it's entirely outside my control, so there's no point leaving a notification on one I'm no longer using - it's not likely I will be assigned that particular IP again. Second, I find the last two claims to be unfair. The talk page in question has had several similar comments removed by other users, on the grounds that they are off topic and have nothing to do with the subject. I apologize if I got the wrong impression that this is standard practice. Regarding the sources I removed from How_to_Be_an_Antiracist, other contributors CONFIRMED that I had the right idea. You can read it on the talk page.

The vast majority of problem lines, quite honestly confuse me. I tried to avoid picking fights ever since last year's incidents. I'd be the first to admit fault if it turns out I wasn't always entirely successful in that regard, but many of my lines presented here don't seem to make sense. My comment on the Gina Carano talk page, regarding her holocaust comments expecially strikes me as out of place, because it's just a near word for word reference to content from the article itself. Some of the stronger opinions are no worse than what registered contributors, including some admins have said. I've read essays on wikipedia that use stronger language. The last ANI report was most certainly justified, seeing as I made baseless accusations of vandalism, and made some rather inappropriate comments. The only thing presented here that comes anywhere near that, when looket at in context, appears to be my comments on the Post-Gazette, which, looking back, definitely feels like something I should not have said. Maybe the trump comment too - that's was a pointless tangent, and the Ben Shapiro one is definitely a BLP violation. I'm going to redact these immediately. There's also that long off-topic argument on Jordan Peterson's talk page, that carried on far too long, but I was not the sole responsible party there, and it was not my intention to go off topic.

That's three comments, that are inappropriate, maybe two where I used harsher language than I should have, and one that was probably put here by mistake, because it's a sentence fragment from the article - not my words. I'm not seeing the problem with the rest, however. I wasn't trying to pick fights. I received two warnings in april which I tried to discuss and clarify, but unfortunately I didn't get any responses. Still, it is true that wikipedia isn't a forum, and some of the discussions I involved myself in, did unfortunately go in that direction, which was not my intent. 46.97.170.112 (talk) 16:46, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) In my opinion, even if you are unfailingly polite towards other users, expressing your POV with phrases like "far right grifter", "trump bootlicker", "the same cancer that's destroying modern society" and "nearly destroyed the country" shows me that you are more interested in promoting your political ideology than in building an encyclopedia. I am actually sympathetic because I shore many of your opinions about certain recent politicians, but I mostly keep those opinions to myself because they are out of place here.

The other problem I see is WP:BLUDGEONING. You don't just express your political opinions. You keep expressing your political opinions again and again even when it has become clear that the consensus is against you. What I am not seeing is any hint of compromise or cooperation.

In my opinion, you should be topic banned from anything related post-1992 politics of the United States, broadly construed. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:15, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

The unregistered editor wrote: "Firstly, my IP cnages periodically and unpredictably, and it's entirely outside my control". No. That is under your control, in that you can register an account. It is only outside your control if you insist on not registering. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:42, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Not to mention one of the three users who supported your version felt the need to write that "Carano did not tweet anti-Semitism and transphobia" so no prizes for guessing what their agenda here is.

Let us be real here. Gina Carano is a nobody. Her becoming an alt-right sweetheart for stirring the pot with her idiotic social media posts and doubling down when politely asked to stop is the only reason people even know she exists. Before that she was a failed martial artist who got massively owned in her first real match, and an untalented d-list actress playing silent bit roles where she was cast purely for her size and frame. redacted by another editor

Link to open BLP/N thread

I've only had extensive experience with this editor on the Gina Carano article, and in general it hasn't been very pleasant. They have no issue with making BLP violating comments on the talk page, or accusing editors of having an agenda. The two quotes above give, I think, a reasonable distillation of what discussions with them are like. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:10, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I've been watching this IP editor for a month or so (since they joined the Peterson article). I raised a concern with their talk page comments on their talk page here ]. I share Guy Macon's concerns. I do think it is a positive sign that they have, after posting here, started removing some of their offending comments (example ]). I also will say I don't see disruption of the article's themselves, just frustrating talk page behavior. My feeling is they are on a fence. If they recognize the issue and are willing to fix the problem I think any additional sanctions would be punitive. However, if they continue I would support some type of Tban. It might have to be an IP range block due to the lack of a named account. It also would be good if they created an account. The combination of aggressive comments and shifting IPs is a problem. Several of the talk pages have similar warnings. Springee (talk) 17:37, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

• As with Springee above, I am willing to grant a very short length of WP:ROPE given that the user in question appears to be willing to redact their earlier offensive comments and commit to being better behaved moving forward. I'd have considered a ban had they not just done so, and would be willing to consider a formal ban of some sort if the shenanigans continue, however. --Jayron32 17:44, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
• My initial tendency on this one was to also go for a warning given my assumption this was a new editor and WP is a different environment than most others. However, I'm not sure I agree anymore. Now that I've seen this behavior has gone on for a while and only seems to change when ANI gets involved. I would recommend reading the previous incident report and noting that IP was already on a short rope. I might also be a bit more supportive if the user was making constructive edits otherwise, but that doesn't seem to be the case either. This feels very much like a user who wants a forum and to POV push and thinks they can walk the line on behavior, backing off just shy of getting banned. I'd recommend a Tban as well, but can support a warning if we think that is more prudent. Just a note to future ANI administrators in case this comes up again. Squatch347 (talk) 19:29, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Having just reviewed the earlier ANI, I'm going to suggest a short rope strategy that might not be technically possible. I would suggest range blocking the IP but offering the option to create an account that isn't blocked (is that possible?). If they mess up the account gets blocked and future IP edits can be blocked per EVADE. However, they still have ROPE so they can show that they were listening. Springee (talk) 20:19, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

• Thanks Guy Macon for the comprehensive report. I've also seen this IP tendentiously attack BLPs and other editors, so I wasn't surprised when someone reported them to WP:BLP/N. They eerily remind me of the sock who was harassing me when I first started editing. The IP has been warned more than enough times from plenty of experienced editors, so I don't think offering them anymore chances will do any good. I included some additional diffs in case anyone wants to take a peak. Dr. Swag Lord (talk) 00:08, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

I oppose giving this IP more rope, based upon:

1. The promises given in the previous ANI report and the rope they were given at that time.
2. Their heartfelt belief that anything other than demonizing any person and any source that shows the slightest trace of conservatism is a NPOV violation that must be fought tooth and nail no matter what the consensus is. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:11, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

• I'm going to agree with Guy Macon here. They were given a chance in the previous AN/I thread and they've gone right back to the behaviour that got them reported in the first place. --RaiderAspect (talk) 06:16, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

I am going to try and address as much of this as possible. I will say this first, I don't have any objections to a topic ban if it's decided that's necessary. The arguments for it do sound convincing. That being said, some of the claims here appear unfair to me.

• To start off, many of the offending comments being brought up here, are from last year, and have already been a subject of an ANI. I have admitted to wrongdoing then, redacted many of the offending comments, and refrained from further activity on the site for the rest of the year. The comments I made then included actual potentially libellous statements on BLP subjects, personal attacks on other users, including unfair accusations of vandalism, and a couple of minor edits that could be considered vandalism. I do not think any of my recent comments are of that nature, or even close. I have tried to refrain from that behavior, keeping last year's ANI in mind. I don't see the point in bringing those up again.
• Some of the specific accusations are simply wrong. I have been accused multiple times of calling Coleman Hughes an "alt right grifter", which I did not do. And due to unfortunate wording, my comment to clarify that I was referring to Ben Shapiro, not Hughes, was just used to incriminate me further. Dr Swag Lord brings that point up against me in the above BLP Noticeboard discussion (of which I received no notification for some reason), along with the claim that I also called Jordan Peterson a "nazi supervillain", which is also not true, as was pointed out to him. He began bringing up last years incidents after he and several others with BLP violation complaints against me were told that they don't have a strong case against me. He also seems to suspect me of being someone he had a previous conflict with - I don't know what the basis of this assumption is.
• On the Jordan Peterson talk page, aside from the one comment I redacted, the only real objectionable thing I did is getting involved in a long thread derailment, when another user tried to debate the contents of two sources, arguing that they were using guilt by association. I understand that wikipedia is not a forum, and I shouldn't have gotten into that argument as far as I did, but I was not the sole responsible party.
• The assessment that I find anything less than demonization of anyone even remotely associated with conservatism to be NPOV, and that I fight tooth and nail against consensus, strikes me as unfair. Especially seeing as my comments on the Thomas Sowell article seem to be the impetus - correct me if I'm wrong. I understand that my choice of words was far from neutral, but to say I was fighting tooth and nail against consensus, so the article would demonize the subject is an exxagerration. Thomas Sowell is a controversial figure, but his article doesn't reflect that at all. I have also argued that over a quarter of sources are primary and come from the subject himself. If I'm wrong about that, that's due to me misinterpreting WP:ABOUTSELF, not the desire to "demonize".
• Similarly, on the Gina Carano talk page, where I've been the most active, and where the "tooth and nail" remark does apply, I wasn't fighting for the demonization of the subject but over the inclusion of information that was already in the existing sources. I objected to the use of a specific wording, which is only used by one source, and asked for the inclusion of relevant information that was in multiple sources, and was previously part of the article. The only comments I made about on the subject herself, had to do with her notability, and the relative notability of the social media controversy. My comments about users "pushing an agenda" was referring to contributors supporting the exclusion of information based on their own personal interpretation of primary sources, rather than what reliable sources say. This has been already covered in the BLP noticeboard discussion above. Morbidthoughts made correct observations about my comments without me having to defend myself, so I don't see why ScottishFinnishRaddish keep insisting that my only goal is to throw insults.
• Regarding Squatch347's comments I think it's fair to point out that I have made constructive edits in the past. I know I used a lot of politically charged language, and sometimes go off into unnecessary tangents when giving my reasoning but a lot of the content I have removed have been justified. On How to Be and Antiracist, the consensus was ultimately on my side, and multiple attempts to restore my deletions have been reverted by registered users. I also nominated the article on Dan Fraga for deletion due to the self-promotional nature of it. I had a rather long and exhausting dispute on the Removal of Confederate monuments and memorials regarding the reliablility of some of the sources in the "academic commentary" section. I'm also involved in the discussion on the talk page of the upcoming The Little Mermaid film, regarding an alleged casting controversy, which I don't believe is notable enough to warrant mentioning. I also removed a guilt by association claim from Ibram X. Kendi and warned of incoming vandalism on that article and on Heidi Heitkamp. I know this is overshadowed by my annoying habit of getting into unnecessarily long arguments and using language that is oftentimes unwarranted, I just felt the need to point out that I did make constructive edits.

Now, this is mostly my response to the nature of the claims made against me, not really to the core issue (i.e. frustrating talk page behavior), which I don't dispute. Like I said, if a topic ban is found to be appropriate, I'm not going to object to it. 46.97.170.112 (talk) 09:52, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm not seeing where I've said your only goal is to throw insults. Do you have a diff or two of that? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:34, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

How about this? They're not arguing for inclusion based on sources, recognizing that sources don't support them. It's just complaints and insults about a BLP. from the BLPN discussion. It's possible I'm misunderstanding. Notice that the words "racist" and "bootlicker" are in quotation marks. Those are not my words, those are from comments made about the subject as reported by the sources. My argument was that she was being criticised rather than bullied. I was trying to argue for the same wording I brought up again recently but I ended up dropping it because not enough sources justify it. In the case of many other comments I made about Gina Carano personally, I was arguing about how much coverage the controversy should receive in proportion to the rest of the article. I do admit some of it did sound insulting, and not at all neutral, but Morbidthoughts managed to get my intentions without me having to say a single word. Anyway, I'll probably be out for the weekend. I'll see what the decision is when I get back. 46.97.170.112 (talk) 12:36, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

The problem is, that reliable sources do not touch on this, at least not to an extent that it would be notable. Gina Carano, in spite of some people here insisting otherwise, is nowhere near noteworthy enough for her political beliefs, as insane and nonsensical as they are, to be of any relevance, outside the usual far right echochambers. was the diff I linked, which I was commenting on. You yourself said that the sources didn't touch on it and that she was not noteworthy for her political beliefs, then called her beliefs insane. I would say that that specific diff that I was describing was not arguing for inclusion based on sources, recognizing that sources don't support the inclusion and that you were complaining about and insulting a BLP. It also wasn't a comment that your only goal was to throw insults, and to say so is disingenuous as there was clearly a diff attached. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:49, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed that. I can see why people would misunderstand that comment, but that wasn't referring to the controversy. It was referring specifically to her ties to Comicsgate, which indeed isn't covered by reliable sources. In the first couple of months when this was fresh news, I was expecting some kind of expose from the media, but it never happened. Point is, I was talking about an issue not directly related to the controversy as it was covered by reliable sources. So I wasn't admitting that the things I was arguing for weren't covered by reliable sources, I was talking about something else that I was initially hoping for eventually being included not being covered by reliable sources, if that makes sense. I know it's not obvious, and my wording certainly didn't help. 46.97.170.112 (talk) 13:19, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Part of the problem, 46.97, is the use of rhetoric such as "as insane and nonsensical as they are" and "far right echo chamber". Your statement without those portions, The problem is, that reliable sources do not touch on this, at least not to an extent that it would be notable. Gina Carano, in spite of some people here insisting otherwise, is nowhere near noteworthy enough for her political beliefs to be of any relevance. would have been a sufficient comment on the situation; the pejorative and disdainful rhetoric is actually distracting from what was otherwise a cogent and good point, and many people (including those of us who, in a less formal setting than Misplaced Pages like at a bar enjoying a few beverages together, would likely agree with your analysis) find such asides to be rude and distracting. Regardless of our opinions on the politics of others (such as other users, or the people of subjects we are writing about on Misplaced Pages and discussing), we're still expected to maintain a level of decorum and grant those people (and those around us) a certain level of dignity. Comments like "insane and nonsensical" have no place in such discussions at Misplaced Pages, and people tire of them when you keep using rhetoric like that. THAT is the crux of the problem. --Jayron32 13:29, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

User:Dajo767

Dajo767 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I think this speaks for itself. WP:NPA, WP:NOTHERE, and so on. TompaDompa (talk) 18:50, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I posted it there not to contaminate the talk page further with our bickering. You obviously cannot be open and discuss without imposing and attempting to dominate Dajo767 (talk) 18:56, 13 May 2021 (UTC). People can go through the talk section https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:World_language and see for themselves the months of feuding which happened. I contacted two wikipedia adminstrators. Twice the article was changed protection. Dajo767 (talk) 18:58, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Like you said this speaks for iteself. I had not received any help from the appeals I made to two wikipedia administrators to resolve this dispute. It's all on the talk page https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:World_language. Dajo767 (talk) 19:02, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I stand by my words. Dajo767 (talk) 19:03, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I request you further not to place messages on my user page again Dajo767 (talk) 19:05, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I find it hilarious when you brought up WP:NOTHERE because this clearly applies to you concerning your edits on the World language. Check the talk page Dajo767 (talk) 19:17, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Dajo767, You may want to stop posting unless someone asks you a question or you have to refute a point. I am certain you're not helping your case right now. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:19, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Looking at Dajo767's edits, edit warring and ownership issues on the article in question, I don't think it's looking good on your edits. And making a blanket statement that you will just outright revert the edits of another edit based purely on who they are, shows that maybe it's you that is not capable of editing in a collaborative manner? In the current edit warring you're doing, TompaDompa asked for more verrification for the claims, and you just blanket reverted them. Someone else restored them and you reverted again. Twice. At this moment the only user I'm looking at for disruptive editing, edit warring and inability to edit in a collaborative manner is Dajo767. Canterbury Tail talk 19:27, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

This is just beyond the pale. "And do not forget that he uses misdirection and manipulation - a psychopathic editor - by changing the templates and the reasons for those templates for his own - hence his name is mentioned at the original research template - as a warning to everyone of this user." I'm tempted just to outright block you just for writing that on Misplaced Pages servers. Canterbury Tail talk 19:33, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

If I may respond, you were only studying the recent edits. Looking at these places everything out of context. I urge you to go through the talk page talk page Dajo767 (talk) 19:55, 13 May 2021 (UTC) Specifically these two talksections that speak about TompaDoma https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:World_language#User_TompaDompa_using_this_page_to_promote_his_views and

https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:World_language#Stop_disrupting_this_artcile. Dajo767 (talk) 20:04, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

No. Answer us why you felt that sentence I posted above was an acceptable thing to write on Misplaced Pages about another editor. Canterbury Tail talk 20:06, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Honestly, Dajo767 you are only making it worse for yourself. After ending up here for accusing a user of psychopatic, you post in defense (?) a case of you calling the same user's drunken and hysterical? You must understand that that kind of language has no place on Misplaced Pages. As ScottishFinnishRadish already said, the best you can do now is to stop talking (and preferably apologise for the language).Jeppiz (talk) 20:10, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Oh and incidentally I've read those sections. It's quite clear that you are the problem here, not TompaDompa, thank you for drawing our attention directly to that fact and pointing us to the evidence. You clearly are unwilling to accept that you are wrong. Anyone can edit Misplaced Pages articles in accordance with our policies and guidelines, they do NOT need to be experts in the subject. In fact it's often best that they aren't, because we rely on what independent reliable third party sources say about the topic, not our own opinion and not our own original research. Canterbury Tail talk 20:12, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Dajo767 I give you one chance now to repond to explain to us why you shouldn't be immediately blocked for ownership issues, edit warring, disruptive editing and egregious personal attacks. Canterbury Tail talk 20:15, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

• As the user on whose talk page this was posted, I felt very surprised and then immediately reverted Dajo767's edit on my talk page; I felt very uncomfortable in particular by the sentence Canterbury Tail also highlight above. I also struggle how anyone can accuse TompaDompa of WP:NOTHERE. My impression is the opposite; even when I have disagreed with TompaDomba, I have found the user polite, willing to discuss and willing to listen. I see no basis for the accusations against them and feel uncomfortable being dragged into this against my will (by having had it posted on my talk). I would strongly encourage Dajo767 to remove the personal attacks on any other place they may have posted it. Jeppiz (talk) 20:04, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Responding to the question of colloborative editing, this was how the article looked like on 10 February 2021 before TompaDoma started being active. It has content which were contributions by many editors (including TompaDoma's) from their sources. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=World_language&oldid=1005959032 and this how the article looked less looked like recently on 11:27, 2 May 2021 , which was purely and 100 percent filled with TompaDoma's own edits. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=World_language&oldid=1021009442 Dajo767 (talk) 20:19, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

UPDATE: In the middle of this discussion, while talking about their edit warring etc, Dajo767 decided, after having been warning about 3RR and given a chance to explain himself on all the above, to revert some tagging on the article because they don't think the unsourced item is controversial. Words quite literally fail me at this point. Despite it being their first offense I believe in light of the above, the talk page comments, the WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and the egregious personal attack that they refuse to defend or apologise for, I have gone straight to an indef. If another admin wishes to review and things it's too hard, feel free to do what you feel is best. But, I just can't. Words fail me right now. Canterbury Tail talk 20:43, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Good block. I've been reading through Talk:World language and the intransigence of Dajo767 seems to have been going on for months. I was quite impressed by the patience shown and repeated attempts to educate Dajo by the other editors. Schazjmd (talk) 21:04, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

It's pretty impressive isn't it. Canterbury Tail talk 21:13, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

In the interest of this moving forward I have actually responded to some of Dajo767's comments on their talk page with some recommendations. Again I will not review the unblock request in order to allow other admins a change to put their viewpoint in. Canterbury Tail talk 11:49, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

206.74.86.194

• 206.74.86.194 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

Revdel and block please. Guy (help! - typo?) 19:30, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

@Malcolmxl5: did the block and I got the revdel. --Jayron32 22:58, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

User:Forrestgump420 and Chauvin Lede

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Forrestgump420 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The account Forrestgump420 is a single-purpose account who has a crusade about the wording of the lede in Derek Chauvin. The article describes him as an American former police officer. The user insists that there is a grammatical rule about adjective order, and that he should be referred to as a former American police officer. It has been pointed out that Chauvin is still an American, because his conviction does not revoke his citizenship. The user tried to argue at Talk:Derek Chauvin, which was closed by User:JzG. The user tried to argue at the Teahouse. See https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Teahouse&oldid=1021294333#new_editor/seeking_to_clarify_Derik_Chauvin_lead . The user tried to argue at DRN, which I closed on 5 May at https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_206#Derek_Chauvin . The user has filed again at DRN, which is becoming a nuisance. I request a topic-ban against the user on all matters related to Derek Chauvin. If this amounts to a de facto ban, that is what happens to disruptive single-purpose accounts. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:16, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Also, the editor's edit summaries are a personal attack against User:Ivanvector. Please revdel them. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:39, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I appreciate the thought but their comments hardly rise to the level of revdel. Maybe ironically, the comment of mine that they've repeatedly referred to as a threat was a warning not to make threats. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 23:08, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Robert McClenon, Agree, time for a partial block from that article and talk. Guy (help! - typo?) 21:47, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

• Support topic ban from any mention of Derek Chauvin and also all grammar related nitpicking. Cullen Let's discuss it 22:28, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
• Proposal WP:PBLOCK from both Derek Chauvin and Talk:Derek Chauvin, topic ban from all discussions about grammar. This is beyond disruptive. --Jayron32 22:55, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support Partial block. This is wasting everyone's time. -- Rockstone 23:01, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
• Just block them. Come on, this is a troll account. Their userpage is a rambling polemic, they've been editing simultaneously as 2600:1702:2340:9470::/64 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial)) this whole time (courtesy ping El C regarding that range's multiple blocks), their username may be a WP:DISRUPTNAME violation, and probably most obvious of all, they're fighting about being knowledgeable in proper English grammar with comments like "for example the word standard generally modifies (describes) the word proper which in turn generally modifies the specific term which is english...as it does in other written languages" and have spelled Chauvin's name incorrectly multiple times, including in their most recent repeat DRN request. Block them and carry on. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 23:03, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

  Well if you insist...Blocked for NOTHERE. RickinBaltimore (talk) 00:39, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Civility of editor User:MjolnirPants in discussions

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

*MjolnirPants (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The owner of all ✌️ 22:48, 13 May 2021 (UTC) (I withdraw this report, but per WP:BOOMERANG if I am going to be sanctioned then go ahead.) The owner of all ✌️ 00:02, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

• If those are your standards for intolerable incivility, you're probably going to have a difficult time working with other people in all aspects of life. --Jayron32 22:51, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
  • That may be true, but I'm not sure if it's relevant to this issue. The owner of all ✌️ 22:55, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
    • You've brought another editor here for santioning for mild incivility. That's not going to happen. Was that less circumlocutionary for you? --Jayron32 23:02, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
      • If nothing is going to happen then we can just close this discussion. The owner of all ✌️ 23:07, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
        • You know what, I don't think we should. There's some additional parts of this situation that needs to be explored, as noted below. Let's see where this discussion goes. --Jayron32 23:09, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
          • I have been careful to avoid violating policy. If that's not good enough for whoever has authority here, then oh well. The owner of all ✌️ 23:12, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
• Note, this editor was just threatened with a block for an attempt to game WP:3RRN. I'm not going to get into the meat of the content question at the heart of the issue here, but I will say that this editor's preferred content is the sort of thing many admins might see as a policy problem, itself. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 23:00, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Just to clarify, User:The owner of all opened this complaint just minutes after being warned for launching a different spurious complaint against MPants at AN3. They should at the very least be warned about WP:FORUMSHOP. Generalrelative (talk) 23:05, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
    • I don't see this as a "forumshop" violation. I reported the potential edit warring to the edit warring noticeboard, and the incivility to here. The owner of all ✌️ 23:09, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
• And that's another example. He thinks that I'm only here to insert policy-violating content in articles. The owner of all ✌️ 23:04, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
  • This ANI posting is meritless (if not ridiculous). You should withdraw it to avoid being sanctioned and so as not to waste the community's time. --JBL (talk) 23:06, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
    • I'm not aware of any policy that I am violating that I could be sanctioned for. Plus, I already give my consent to close this discussion if nothing is going to happen, as stated above. The owner of all ✌️ 23:10, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
      • Please read and follow WP:COLAS. --JBL (talk) 23:19, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
        • Ok, but that's not a policy page, so can I be sanctioned for mistakenly not following it? The owner of all ✌️ 23:23, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support a boomerang -- obvious bad-faith filing, a quick review of the editor's contributions suggest they are a net negative to the project. --JBL (talk) 23:19, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Which contributions do you have issue with? The owner of all ✌️ 23:22, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

• This is nonsense. Someone please close this and either warn or block the OP for edit-warring and filing ridiculous bad-faith ANI reports. Softlavender (talk) 23:32, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
  • I agree that this report can be closed, but I disagree with blocking me for filing an ANI report. (I disagree that this report was bad faith when I filed it, because I looked for where I could file a report about violations of the civility policy. But now that it's clear that the community believes the behavior of that editor doesn't violate the policy I am ok with withdrawing the report.) The owner of all ✌️ 23:50, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

• This is getting into WP:BOOMERANG as well as WP:CIR territory. And no, please do not ask me a follow-up question. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:31, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
  • But CIR is not a policy so I'm not sure it would be valid to ban me for not following it. The owner of all ✌️ 23:36, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
    • Misplaced Pages:Disruptive editing is not a policy. It is a behavioral guideline and editors get blocked for violating it quite frequently. Editors also get blocked for lack of competence routinely. Cullen Let's discuss it 23:48, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
    • (edit conflict) Misplaced Pages:Disruptive editing#Failure or refusal to "get the point" is certainly a blockable offense. Sometimes, editors perpetuate disputes by sticking to an allegation or viewpoint long after the consensus of the community has decided that moving on to other topics would be more productive. Such behavior is disruptive to Misplaced Pages... sanctions may have to be imposed. --Jayron32 23:48, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
      • Ok but I've already stated that I get the point. I am already trying to move on and blocking me would not be helpful. The owner of all ✌️ 23:52, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
        • The owner of all, please avoid (1) adding colons in between bullets when responding to a reply, and (2) adding a line space when responding to bulleted replies. Please check your posts via Show preview" to see that your post has only ONE bullet, before you click "Publish changes". I've cleaned up your posts once today, and I'm doing it again now. Please don't make more than one bullet visible on your replies. Softlavender (talk) 00:01, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
          • I apologize. All of my replies were created by typing asterisks, but WikEd or one of the other gadgets was changing some of the syntax. I have disabled those gadgets on my account to avoid further issues. The owner of all ✌️ 00:05, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

147.161.9.167

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

147.161.9.167 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) Vandalism by user. AnAnicolaidis (talk) 23:04, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

• Blocked for 60 hours, talk page revoked. In future, you should report incidents of straightforward vandalism to WP:AIV. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 23:10, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. I will keep in mind about WP:AIV. AnAnicolaidis (talk) 23:13, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I think that the diffs should be revdeled. RolandR (talk) 17:50, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

User:AwesomePro50 keeps modifying/adding OR to "name=" fields

AwesomePro50 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This unresponsive editor keeps adding extraneous information to the "name=" fields in infoboxes instead of following the guidance to use common name and/or article title:

also keeps adding OR translations:

Also see editors history for (70? 80?) such edits, still ongoing.

Despite notifying them about the problematic edits and reverts with explanations by me and other editors they continue making the same edits. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 23:53, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

• I have mass-reverted them. If that doesn't get their attention then a parblock from article space may be the next step. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 00:21, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Large AIV Backlog

Any assistance would be appreciated. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 03:42 on May 14, 2021 (UTC)

@Neutralhomer: Did, coincidentally.

Please consider changing your signature to use the standard datetimestamp and such that the enclosing small is around only your name and talk page links. I really like the new Reply tool and it doesn't like one or both of those things about your signature. :^) --Izno (talk) 05:44, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

@Izno: Thanks for your help on the AIV backlog. I don't use the Beta preferences (I'm really old school), so I just looked at them and I see the issue you are getting. I am going to tinker with my signature and try to make it work with the new Beta features. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 05:54 on May 14, 2021 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Owen Williams (artist)

Could someone semi-protect this page please? A block-evading 205.234.53.90 , a sock of of Bembo Bold (SPI) has been, well, block-evading there for the last four hours. Thanks. --- Possibly (talk) 03:58, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

It's actually getting quite amusing; the one IP 205.234.53.90 has !voted keep something like 11 times now, but I suspect some may be dupes.--- Possibly (talk) 04:15, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

• Ivanvector has now closed the AFD and deleted the article. I don't know whether salting the page might be in order. Softlavender (talk) 05:06, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

That was quite a nasty series of socks. I am still a bit disturbed that they were adding negative material on the "Owen Williams" controversy to the Yukon Arts Centre. It seems like obvious grievance editing. They even came back just now as user:OwenWilliamsYukon, after Ivanvector's block, to restore the "controversy" material again.--- Possibly (talk) 05:28, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

• Izno blocked the new IP, and I blocked the range they're both on; Bembo Bold's block is now indefinite. Salting disambiguated titles is weak, and I'm reluctant to add this to the title blacklist since there seem to be a lot of Owen Williamses. There are plenty of editors watching this now: if the page is recreated under this or a different title, please flag it for WP:G5 and report it at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Bembo Bold. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 05:25, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Thank you kindly. --- Possibly (talk) 05:33, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Lowercase sigmabot III not operating correctly on this page

Lowercase sigmabot III is missing most of the threads it is supposed to be archving on this board, leaving the board to pile up excessively (which reduces engagement and problem-solving). I don't know how long this has been going on, because I've been on a break from the "drama boards" for some months, but when I checked in today, there were more than 68 threads on the board (when ideally there should be less than 35).

The automated archiving on this page has long been set to 3 days -- threads which have not received input for more than 72 hours get auto-archived by the bot. Lowercase sigmabot III made this edit today at 12:00, 13 May 2021 (UTC), but it left 19 threads which had had no timestamps in over three days. Many of the threads had been stale for a week or more. None of them had DNAU codes.

This really needs to be fixed so that admin engagement and problem solving can occur efficiently here and admins are not overwhelmed by a board that is 600,000 bytes long and has over 65 threads. I had to go in and one-click archive the very stale threads myself.

I'm posting this here because ANI does not have a dedicated talk page. Also, I'm not sure whether this problem exists on pages other than this one.

In any case, this bot needs to be fixed, and/or retired and a new one created if this one has passed its prime. Softlavender (talk) 04:56, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

It looks like it was working fine the morning of 8 May , and didn't miss any threads, but then it didn't edit the page again until 13 May , where it's ignoring sections that should be archived. Modulus12 (talk) 05:15, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Hi Modulus12, I'm guess you mistyped, because "sections" do not get archived, only entire threads. I agree that the bot was not doing anything at all on this page between May 8 and May 13, so there is a definite malfunction happening by May 8, even though it was operating on other pages between May 8 and May 12: . Softlavender (talk) 05:39, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

This is quite the tangent, but my use of "sections" is correct, I'm pretty sure. (See Help:Section.) A section can contain multiple threads, sub-sections, etc. Modulus12 (talk) 05:44, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Articles have sections. Noticeboards and talkpages -- where editors post and sign their posts -- have threads (see Help:Talk pages), and sections within those threads; sections within threads often get closed prior to the entire thread getting closed, but the sections do not get archived, only the entire thread when it is stale or closed. Softlavender (talk) 06:14, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Holding a mouse over the "edit" link for this discussion currently shows a URL that includes &action=edit&section=74. Clicking that link would edit section 74 on this page. Someone might call this discussion a thread, or a collapsed sub-discussion a section, but that's just because language is hard to pin down and words get used for convenience. Archiving occurs by section using the &action=edit&section=74 meaning. Johnuniq (talk) 07:49, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Sigmabot usually does not edit as a result of a) nothing needing to be moved, or b) a blacklisted term/URL being in the source of either the page to be archived or the target archive (rarely a c) Toolforge is down). If it was operating on other pages at that time, then it's probably either a or b. Izno (talk) 05:48, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

It's clear there were threads that needed to be archived between May 8 and May 13; that's how the page ballooned to 68 or more threads. It seems to me that, like all archiving bots eventually do, Lowercase Sigmabot III is malfunctioning and may need to be replaced. That's why over the years we've had so many iterations of the original archiving bot under a handful of various names. Softlavender (talk) 06:14, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Some of us are chronically lazy so please give the title of, say, two sections which should have been archived but which weren't. Johnuniq (talk) 07:53, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

"Indefinite block for User:Sportsfanrob", "User:ListeningBronco", "Pigsonthewing et al.". Fram (talk) 08:28, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

In this edit I pointed out, from noon May 13 UTC, Lowercase sigmabot III left out, starting from the top, "Terry Bean", "Co-ordinated off-wiki disruption at Turkish War of Independence", "Film awards WP:NOR from IP range in Georgia, U.S.", "Regarding user Knewdates for bad faith editing and what I see as intimidation Daniel Lee (designer)", "Mikeymikemikey", "Cheesy McGee", and 13 other threads that hadn't been edited in at least three days (most of them hadn't been edited since May 5 UTC). Softlavender (talk) 08:44, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

It looks like a problem to me. I asked for opinions at VPT. Johnuniq (talk) 10:04, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

The underlying problem is in the wikitext computation library maintained by @The Earwig:. Perhaps you could take a look, Earwig?

The thread titled COVID: SYNTH, BLUDGEON and MEDRS (moved from AE) seems to have consumed 31 of the sections below it, up to and including the one titled User:SteveBenassi persistent disruptive edits: edit warring, refusing to discuss/engage. Sourced from https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=1022942665

In addition, @Softlavender:, I think there are more conscientious ways of reporting this issue and bringing it to my/our attention. Apology accepted in advance.

Thanks. →Σσς. (Sigma) 10:21, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

I made no apology and I will make none. My aim was to be conscientious and so I was; I'm not sure why you are WP:ABF or have a problem with my report. If a bot that affects so very many users and their on-wiki problems and requests for assistance is not functioning correctly, and has been problematical for several days, I report it as quickly as I can and with as much information as I can. Softlavender (talk) 10:29, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

In the meantime I've archived that thread, as there's nothing left to do in there anyway, and it was reopened by an SPA to relitigate a content decision. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:31, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Hey Sigma. As you know, this is a known bug and not easily fixed. — The Earwig (talk) 12:33, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

The first section to not be archived had an unclosed ]. The software probably viewed it as one large block which could not be split, and the block included recent signatures so it wasn't archived. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:25, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

So would "post a helpful error message somewhere if large blocks containing section breaks occur" be a useful feature request so we can fix this issue manually the next time it occurs? —Kusma (t·c) 12:45, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

I think PrimeHunter has it right about what's causing the bug, and it's not what I originally thought. This bug is surprising to me, and I will need to look more carefully tonight. If we're going to teach the bot how to identify misparsed section breaks, it would be easy enough to have it handle the breaks correctly rather than report an error. — The Earwig _alt (talk) 14:58, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

That's a fun failure mode.... Keep that in my sigmabot does things pocket. Izno (talk) 14:55, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

108.167.78.36

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Could I get a bot or an admin (if there is a tool for that) to do a "mass revert" of this user's edits, please? They are all vandalism, as they have now been blocked 4 seperate times for "vandalism" and "disruptive editing". Their edits, though, remain due to just how many of them there are. Some admin or bot assistance would be greatly appreciated. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 06:43 on May 14, 2021 (UTC)

• OK, I'm placing a lot of trust in you, Neutralhomer! I haven't looked at all the edits, obviously, but I have now rolled back all the ones that were the last in the histories (there's a tool for that), thereby seriously bloating my own contribs history. Bishonen | tålk 09:06, 14 May 2021 (UTC).

• @Bishonen: I appreciate that trust, I wouldn't have asked for something this major without just cause and a LOT of research on my end. I understand the pain in the butt that caused you and I appreciate your help. :) Thanks! - Neutralhomer • Talk • 09:11 on May 14, 2021 (UTC)

• @Neutralhomer and Bishonen: While a good number of edits were little more than link additions, some of the edits were legitimate, like XHFL-FM (Guanajuato) where the listed URL was replaced with the current one or KXPM-LP where the reliable source cited notes the station mostly airs Relevant Radio programs. Much more sifting through is needed, and I have already had to restore several reversions. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 17:33, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

• Hi, Sammi Brie. See, I was worried this would happen. Still, on balance, considering the number of blocks for vandalism the IP has — most recently, a three-month block — and also considering Neutralhomer's research, the most realistic option seemed to be to use the mass rollback script. I've seen your reverts — I get notifications for them — and I was just thinking of posting on your page, to thank you for taking care of the no-good reverts you found, and to discuss the situation generally. Bishonen | tålk 18:41, 14 May 2021 (UTC).

Betty Boop, Helen Kane, and Baby Esther

Users blanking information at Betty Boop

A user ] is blanking Reliably Sourced information from the article Betty Boop, and then refusing to explain why on the discussion page. Edits here and . He/she even threatened to report me for adding Reliably Sourced informetion from Time Magazine. Attempt at discussion page here.. . 197.87.63.222 (talk) 07:12, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

My reply to the IP is here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:19, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Since User:MarnetteD has been involved with this IP's behavior for as long as I have, I will be notifying them of these threads. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:22, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

I've been trying to post this for minutes now, but keep getting conflict.

It is curious that this editor User:BeyondmyKen had no problem with the Baby Esther article as it was as of September 2020. . Compare that version to the most recent.. We see in Nov 2020 an unverified photo, whereas now there is a verified one. We see in Nov 2020 that even the dates of Esther's active career were wrong, by years. And we see blatant UNSOURCED claims such as While Kane never publicly admitted her borrowing, Jones' style—as imitated by Kane—went on to become the inspiration for the voice of the cartoon character Betty Boop and Esther was thus recognized as the original scat-singer who inspired Helen Kane to scat-sing. . How about One of the main reasons Baby Esther is not remembered is because she was never a feature attraction in Cab Calloway's New York club; and In addition to adducing Baby Esther's performances, That's all BLATANT OR and totally unsourced. Yet, that's what BeyondMyKen wants.

Here's the WP:RS that BeyondmyKen objects to

And now someone else has reverted to the blanked version — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.87.63.222 (talk) 07:48, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

AN/I is not a place where content disputes are settled - article talk pages are where that happens. AN/I is for behavioral problems. You have reported my behavior -- and I have given my explanation for it -- and I have reported your disruptive behavior across the three articles involved. Others will chime in with their opinions, and, if they decide a sanction needs to be be levied (I have asked for you to be topic banned from the three articles, I'm not sure what action you're looking for, since you don't state one) an admin will do so. In the meantime, some editors may comment on the content dispute, but that's not the purpose of this board. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:05, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

The content dispute led to the "behaviour". As noted above, the article was a mess, full of UNSOURCED MATERIAL, OUTRIGHT LIES, and worse. So, finally someone comes along, and tries to make three articles more worthy of being on Misplaced Pages. At which point, people who wanted the articles in their unsourced, fabricated, synthesis manner then started accusing the editor who was tryng to IMPROVE the articles of "disruptive behaviour".

Is the editor trying to add reliable sources, and remove unsourced attack content "disruptive"? OR is the person REMOVING sourced material, and adding unsourced material the "disruptive" one?

Oh, I forgot the best one of all. Blatantly lying about what a ] actually said.

This all seems to go back to Robert O'Meally and his book Uptown Conversation: The New Jazz Studies (2004).

The person who created this article(Baby Esther) only used O'Meally as a supposed "source".

The phrase "Jazz studies scholar Robert O'Meally has referred to Jones as 'Betty Boop's black grandmother.'" was on that article until November 2020.

--- But what did Robert O'Meally ACTUALLY say"

From Page 290 of Uptown Conversation:

The climax of the case (a further Ellisonian twist) came when the court viewed archival film brought in by the defense - footage shot in the early days of sound, featuring yet another singer, this time a black cabaret artist billed as Baby Esther, who on film performed a song that contained the heavily debated phrase "boop-boop-a-doop". The Fleischers' lawyers further surprised the court with testimony from Baby Esther's manager, Lou Walton, claiming that Helen Kane and her manager had heard Baby Esther sing in a cabaret in 1928. The point of course was that even if the Fleischers' singer(s) had copied Kane to create Betty Boop, Kane herself, if the evidence could be believed56, was an imitation of black Baby Esther.57 In other words, Boop herself was an imitation of an imitation and had, as it were, a black grandmother in the background.58

Nice, isn't it? But what was that "if the evidence could be believed"? Editors like Beyondmyken never quoted THAT, did she? Let's see what Robert O'Meally says under those references at the book. After all, he wouldn't put that there, if it wasn't important, would he? And what about # 57 and # 58? Let us turn to Page 295 of the exact same book, by the exact same author.

56. Cabarga, The Fleischer Story makes clear that this evidence might very well have been cooked up by the Fleischers to discredit Kane, whom they later admitted to have been their model for Betty Boop. 57. See Klaus Strateman's Louis Armstrong on the Screen (Copenhagen:JazzMedia 1996), pp. 17-26. 58. One can only wonder if there was some sort of sideline deal with Mr Walton. Was Miss Esther paid for her presumed loss of revenue?

In other words, the article stated pretty much the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the RS actually stated. Beyondmyken BLATANTLY LIED AND MISREPRESENTED a WP:RS. It wasn't until I quoted O'Meally correctly that the article reflected the truth, at which point Beyondmyken(and others) started attacking me. For correctly quoting O'Meally, rather than lying about what he had written. 197.87.63.222 (talk) 08:10, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

• Comment (my last) Those of you who do not wish to go through the diffs and links I posted below of the IP's ranting style just got a good sample of it. Even after being told that this is not the place to discuss content, they spout the above, a very good example of what editors on the talk pages of the three articles have been putting up with since September 2020. I think it's quite obvious that this IP is never going to be able to deal with this subject rationally, calmly, judiciously, and fairly, they will always push their point of view. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:19, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Simple question: Why did you have NO problem with outright lies, and complete misrepresentations of of RS, for what seems to be eyars, but are now accusing people of being "disruptive" for ADDING RS, and attempting to remove unsourced material? 197.87.63.222 (talk) 08:21, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Hilarious... the same person who wrote "e, a very good example of what editors on the talk pages of the three articles have been putting up with since September 2020. I think it's quite obvious that this IP is never going to be able to deal with this subject rationally, calmly, judiciously, and fairly, they will always push their point of view." ALSO wrote " but you simply cannot keep attempting to skew the articles in order to have them show that Helen Kane was the precursor to Betty Boop,"

See? Yet, guess who got blocked? Byebye. 197.87.63.222 (talk) 09:29, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

User:197.87.63.222

Some old controversies just never die down. This seems to be one of them: the influence (or lack of influence) of the entertainer Baby Esther on Helen Kane and Betty Boop. There was a lawsuit about it in 1932 when Kane sued the Fleischer Studios and the defendants brought up Baby Esther.

The IP editor 197.87.63.222 has been arguing on the talk pages of these articles since September November 2020 that Baby Esther had no influence on Kane. Their position is very pro-Kane and very anti-Esther. They've made these arguments on the talk pages of all three articles, but has never convinced anyone - there has never been anything even close to a scintilla of a consensus for the IP's PoV, yet the IP continues to attempt to skew the articles to his personal PoV.

It's time for this to stop. The IP needs to be topic banned from Boop, Kane and Esther and any related subjects. I have no idea if their editing in other areas is problematic, but in this subject area it most certainly is. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:15, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

interjection, and my last post here. This person is forcing the idea that "Baby Esther" DID influence Kane. The one source he/she used ,(O'Meally) states that that was NOT the case. And he/she blanked a RS from a 1934 Time Magazine, because it makes his/her claim of "Baby Esther influencing Helen Kane" a chronological impossibility. He/she also makes the Kane vs Fleischer trial all about Esther, when other factors like Gertrude Saunders, Louis Armstrong etc. were far more decisive. 197.87.63.222 (talk) 13:41, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Well, I see he got here first by three minutes. I'll combine the two sections. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:16, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

IP has been notified. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:21, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

The IP's PoV argumentation:

• Talk:Baby Esther: , from "Article is a lot of hot air" (September 2020) through to the bottom of the page, 15 threads, about 11,000 words. Section titles include "Misunderstanding the judge's verdict", "Plagiarism?", "Is this even Wiki-worthy?", "An odd string of coincidences...or garbage?", all of which are to the point that their PoV is the only possibly correct one.
• Talk:Helen Kane:
• Talk:Betty Boop/Archive 1: Start here, with the first collapsed section because the IP was using socks after being blocked collapsed because the IP was suspected of being a sock, and continue to the end of the page, 4 threads, same arguments.
• Talk:Betty Boop#The Kane vs Fleischer section

Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:47, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

The thing to note is that the IP spouts on and on and on, and never achieves a consensus. In fact, after a while, their ranting is just ignored. Nevertheless, the IP edits as if they have a consensus. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:49, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

But how is ANY of that relevant to you blanking RELIABLY SOURCED information from a contemporaneous Time Magazine? And, do you stand by the Baby Esther article as it was in November 2020? 197.87.63.222 (talk) 07:51, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

have already explained that a number of times: the information is about Helen Kane and you're attempting to add it to an article about Betty Boop. It's WP:UNDUE. Three editors have now reverted your addition, doesn't that suggest to you that you do not have the consensus necessary to add it? Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:59, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

It's about Helen Kane in the context of the Betty Boop trial. By your logic, we can remove any information that's not directly about Betty Boop from the same section then. And I put it in the "Kane vs Fleishcer" paragraph of the Betty Boop article. You have exposed yourself as trying to push a POV now. 197.87.63.222 (talk) 08:03, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Don't be absurd, the trial is obviously relevant. The question is how much material on the trial should be in the article, and what kind. It's clear that you want the Time material to be in because it strengthens the hypothesis that Kane was the major influence on the invention of Betty Boop, and, in fact, in order to do that you're cherry-picking facts from the Time article that emphasize points of similarity between them.I understand that you feel strongly about this issue, but you simply cannot keep attempting to skew the articles in order to have them show that Helen Kane was the precursor to Betty Boop, and that Baby Esther was irrelevant. That's your personal viewpoint, which you're allowed to have, but you're not allowed to edit Misplaced Pages in such a way as to have our articles represent you views. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:12, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

That's YOUR POV. You can add what you want from that article too. It';s Time Magazine. You are the one cherry-picking (and as shown elsewhere, blatantly lying about what RS actually state). 197.87.63.222 (talk) 08:15, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

YOU are the one skewing it. The articles have all been skewed for years. 197.87.63.222 (talk) 08:16, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

and we see the REALITY.

"I understand that you feel strongly about this issue, but you simply cannot keep attempting to skew the articles in order to have them show that Helen Kane was the precursor to Betty Boop, and that Baby Esther was irrelevant. That's your personal viewpoint, which you're allowed to have, but you're not allowed to edit Misplaced Pages in such a way as to have our articles represent you views. "

So, I am attempting to "skew" something "To show that Helen Kane was the precursor to Betty Boop". Well, I'll just quote Professor Robert O'Meally, on page 295 of his book "Uptown Conversation":

" Cabarga, The Fleischer Story makes clear that this evidence might very well have been cooked up by the Fleischers to discredit Kane, whom they later admitted to have been their model for Betty Boop."

That's not me "skewing", that's what a respected sholar says.

As for "and that Baby Esther was irrelevant". We;;, if Esther was relevant, I'm sure Beyondmyken, or someone else, will happily quote from Judge McGoldrick's ruling where he mentions Esther as part of his ruling. Oh, wait, he never mentioned Esther in his ruling.

And, as stated, this article was created out of whole cloth in 2014. EVERYTHING it said there was a lie. Everything.

Now, have I been a bit emotional in what I have said on discussion pages? Yes. Have I made disruptive edits? No. Have I quoted what RS says, sometimes even being accused of "plagiarism" for writing EXACTLY what the Rs actually state? Yes. Has Beyondmyken now exposed him/herself as the one "skewing the article"? Yes.

Simply, it is NOT disruptive to quote from RS to improve articles. sadly for Beyondmyken, the RS showed that what he/she has been pushing for years, even deliberately misquoting sources(such as O'Meally) is not backed up the actual RS. 197.87.63.222 (talk) 08:28, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

• Boomerang. But it is disruptive to edit war against several users, and to ignore consensus on talkpages. I have blocked 197.87.63.222 from Betty Boop and Baby Esther for 6 months. They have not edited Helen Kane recently, but if the disruption should move there, the block can, too. I note the same person has edited as 197.89.10.25 and 197.87.63.7 on the same articles — a huge range — so the articles may need to be temporarily semiprotected if this continues. Note also 197.87.63.222's previous block log. (The other IPs I mention have been blocked before also). Bishonen | tålk 08:55, 14 May 2021 (UTC).

For removing unsourced material, for adding sourced material, for removing possible libelous material? And you haven't blocked Beyondmyken? So, he/she can go right back and turn those articles into misinformation, lies, and blatant POV-pushing?

So, I'm getting blocked for trying to improve articles, whereas the people blanking RS, adding blatant mistruths, and lying about what RS actually say are being left untouched? HOW was I the disruptive one? And, if true, how was I the only disruptive one? 197.87.63.222 (talk) 09:01, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed)

We can always extend the block if you're simply going to be abusive? Black Kite (talk) 09:53, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

How was that a "personal attack" or "abusive"? If 1 person is trying to source information, remove unsourced material, and repeatedly creating new threads on the discussion pages to discuss article content....while another user ignores the discussion pages, blanket reverts without discussion, removes RS material, threatens rather than discusses, and lies about what a RS says, to push his/her agenda, then who is the disruptive one? But what if more than one person does what the latter user does? Does numerical superiority then give free reign to ignoring discussions, adding unsourced material, and removing sourced material, just because there is a very slim numerical advantage? 197.87.63.222 (talk) 10:11, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

and note his/her original comment. That I'm "very pro-Kane and very anti-Esther". Nope. I was adding NPOV RS, and Beyondmyken didn't like what they said. Period. So who was skewing articles? I just say, look at what they were like(Beyondmyken's preferred versions) before I started trying to edit them, compared to now. Is that "disruptive"? Who was the one who exposed the BLATANT LIE about what respected scholar Robert O'Meally said? Me. How was it alright for a Misplaced Pages article to outright fabricate "evidence" from an esteemed scholar, and falsely claim he wrote something that he never wrote? And how is correcting that being "disruptive"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.87.63.222 (talk) 10:23, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

I've issued a PA warning to 197.87.63.222 - this isn't a war that must be won at all costs. Acroterion (talk) 13:01, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Nobody said it was. I was just asking why trying to Reliably Source material, trying to correct unsourced material, and starting threads on discussion pages is "disruptive". That's not a personal attack. All I want is a clear, straight answer. Is it a personal attack to want something to be explained? 197.87.63.222 (talk) 13:06, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

I just want to note that being "Reliably Sourced" is a necessary but not sufficient condition to adding text to an article. When adding new information, the new information needs BOTH be reliably sourced and there needs to be consensus that the new information is relevant and proper to add to the article. You seem to be running into problems with the second part. If you've reached an impasse, invite some uninvolved editors to look into the situation. We've got a dozen or so various noticeboards where you can ask for outside opinions, WP:DR is thataway. WP:BLUDGEONing talk pages and repeatedly trying to force a contested change into an article is not a productive way to move beyond an impasse. --Jayron32 13:48, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

If you beleive you can skirt a PA block by just saying "other editors" are lying, you're mistaken. Acroterion (talk) 13:17, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

I have no idea what you're talking about. I demonstrated that people had been inserting false/fabricated "facts" into articles to force a pov. That is beyond dispute. Compare O'Meally's real quote to what the article used to say he said. The problem is that both Beyondmyken and MarnetteD started reverting any similar edits I made, so I was accused of efit-warring. The articles as they stand now have been tidied up substantially. Yet the latest efit war concerns a Time Magazine article from 1934 that other editors didn't like. Read Beyondmyken's first post on this very dispute to find out why. 197.87.63.222 (talk) 13:25, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

New user, claims to be an old user, blanking loads of stuff

Gal00n20honm (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is a new account, claims on userpage to be an old user, is blanking loads of stuff, including threads on this page. DuncanHill (talk) 09:17, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Same editor as User:Robeca5020 from a few days ago. Probably some well-known vandal, no idea if they can be stopped by some edit filter or similar? Fram (talk) 09:21, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

This certainly, and perhaps the accompanying here, needs to be revdeled as well? Fram (talk) 09:26, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Looks like a sock of Sunholm (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Have reported to SPI. DuncanHill (talk) 09:28, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

In fact, all their edits need checking for revdel for hoax claims reasons and for spamming of some sites in the edit summaries, and per WP:DENY. Fram (talk) 09:30, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

• Blocked indef for the time being. Black Kite (talk) 09:34, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Blakecowrie0389 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is another. DuncanHill (talk) 09:53, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Editor ignoring WP:MEDRS

Hi everyone. PeterSweden has been repeatedly ignoring WP:MEDRS at Peter Daszak. In the article lede the subject is described as He is a researcher, consultant, and public expert in the cause and spread of zoonotic disease outbreaks like that of COVID-19. PeterSweden has been continuously reinserting the word "contested" citing two non-WP:MEDRS sources. On top of this, they have been uncivil. Relevant diffs:

• I reverted their change explaining "researchgate.net is not a reliable source for medical claims. See WP:MEDRS.":
• They re-insert their change, adding another non-WP:MEDRS source, accusing me of "censorship, restriction of freedom of speech and manipulation": .
• I reverted them again and posted to their Talk page making them aware of WP:AGF and further explained the importance of WP:MEDRS.
• They have not responded on their Talk page. Instead, they have again re-inserted their changes: .

A new editor, they haven't edited any articles other than Peter Daszak. They seem to be unwilling to engage in a reasonable discussion and more like a WP:NOTHERE WP:SPA interested in righting great wrongs. Robby.is.on (talk) 10:01, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

How does WP:MEDRS apply to people when it is designed to apply to biomedical information? With that said, crying censorship is never a good thing and those sources need to be WP:RS, not WP:MEDRS in my opinion. spryde | talk 14:47, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Whether COVID-19 is zoonotic or not (or contested) is biomedical information, whatever article it is in, so is subject to WP:MEDRS. Phil Bridger (talk) 15:07, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Temp block of User:Quantupediholic

I've temporarily blocked Quantupediholic following an out of character edit by in which they dumped several megabytes of signature text into that page together with an intemperate edit comment. They seem to have been a constructive editor until this edit, so I've only blocked them for a short time, with a request for clarification on their talk page. I'm wondering if this might be an account compromise? -- The Anome (talk) 12:27, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

The Anome Should've asked the user first what was going on before you made the block, and the edit you are talking about I assume was the one made at Misplaced Pages talk:Sandbox. That's a test page which was going to be reset by a bot anyway. Even though the block is short, I think it was the wrong action to take. Jerm (talk) 14:22, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Just want add that a ANI notice needs to be sent out once you file a report, even if you did ping them. I've sent one to Quantupediholic. Jerm (talk) 14:47, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

@Jerm: Thank you; apologies for forgetting to do it. -- The Anome (talk) 15:25, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

My mobile phone froze for 2 minutes when I tried open that diff. One of the LTAs has a habit of spamming extremely large edits to the Sandbox, so I won't blame The Anome in this case for thinking something is fishy. ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ (talk) 14:51, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

I've just discussed it with Quantupediholic, explaining why I made the block. It doesn't look like they've lost control of their account, so I've unblocked them now. -- The Anome (talk) 15:19, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

User:KrishnaVastav

KrishnaVastav (talk · contribs · count) – Continuous disruptive editing on a mass scale (over 90 articles and counting). Keeps sticking "Delhi NCR" everywhere or other location-focused nonsense. Warnings left unheeded, including level-4 warnings. Does not engage in discussion. Temporary block requested. — kashmīrī  12:43, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

He/she always leaves the edit summary "added content" irrespective of what he/she did. For example, 07:40, 14 May 2021 to Delhi Metro where he/she deleted wikilinks and added a mistake to the punctuation. As far as I can see, the only point to his/her edits is an attempt to build up an edit history in the hopes of becoming as extended confirmed user.-- Toddy1 (talk) 13:55, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

user:TrangaBellam

TrangaBellam (talk · contribs) slapped a deletion notice on Tripura Buranji () and when enough references and citations were provided, he has been deleting them (). He wants to "talk" and wants to police the article. I have asked him not to remove texts (). It is also strange that he has slapped a notice on me for edit warring, even as he is the other party disputing my edits.. Chaipau (talk) 13:23, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

• I hope that the administrators will discount this report as frivolous. The author, to prove the notability of the article, has been misrepresenting sources and is not engaging with me on the article talk-page despite multiple requests. I did not delete a single reference but edited the text to comply with WP:INTEGRITY. TrangaBellam (talk) 13:29, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

  I don't know who is right here, but this really just looks like a very young content dispute. I agree with TrangaBellam that you should continue discussion at the talk page, and I'm not sure what Chaipau means when they put "talk" in scare quotes. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 14:32, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

This is not a frivolous charge. TrangaBellam's cycle of engagement indicates he is not engaging in good faith and is being disruptive.

• He flags article for deletion with the note that it lacks notability.
• I added references for notability
• I then removed the tag for deletion, according to the second step of the PROD process, which says: If anybody objects to the deletion (usually by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} tag—see full instructions below), the proposal is aborted and may not be re-proposed.. The reason being that notability has been established.
• TrangaBellam nominates page for deletion.
• I continue to improve article
• TrangalBellam stands guard, removing referenced and cited texts, along with citations, for improving the article., ,
• TrangalBellam now clearly having reverted a number of my edits, notifies me against edit warring and warns me that I may be blocked!

This is disruptive behavior that needs to be checked. Instead of improving the article, the TrangalBellam seems to be pushing a point of view, displaying WP:OWN, and anointed himself as the gatekeeper. This behavior needs to be checked.

Chaipau (talk) 14:43, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers: By "talk", I mean that TrangalBellam is trying to be a gatekeeper here, even as he is pushing to have the article deleted. A gatekeeper more in in the 3O tradition is more appropriate. Surely, he is in the right to verify the citations. But reverting and then calling for a "talk" (aka "proposal for change") is ludicrous. He made his objection later and his objections have been addressed. Chaipau (talk) 14:55, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

• Comment - We are all gate-keepers here. I am afraid you just need to roll up your sleeves and engage in good-faith discussion. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:03, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
• I am not user Chaipau but User Trangabellam really is far from constructive edit on articles if he did not like certain lines or topic he will act like a police use wikipedia existing laws like a weapon and will delete the article or the section, citing it lack wp:CNG will delete even book source saying its unreliable, he seem to nitpick everything based on his preference, here are some of article he delated recently without any discussion, he even took mythological dieties should satisfy publishing from journal. see this big content deletions 🐲 ꯂꯨꯋꯥꯪ 17:18, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

I will just point out that User:Luwanglinux was recently blocked by an administrator for a week, based on my (and User:Kautilya3's) complaint at a noticeboard. TrangaBellam (talk) 17:23, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

You and kautilya even lobbied to that admin when the admin told me not to revert article again and I did not revert article but you were saying something like this creation of articlePuya Meithaba ( Burning of Puya ) is also an indirect edit war, I am really amazed by the way you and Kautilya took the effort to block me. Admin Edjohnston did not reply yet when I asked if I really violate rule revert article or edit war after discussion.🐲 ꯂꯨꯋꯥꯪ 18:05, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Excalibur26 - please revoke TPA

• Excalibur26 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user was recently indeffed for treating Misplaced Pages like a forum for their racist and misogynist opinions, which they inserted directly into several articles, catalogued here. Today they are using their talk page to repost the same comments. Please relieve them of their talk page access. Ivanvector's squirrel (/_nuts) 13:55, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

• Done. Tiderolls 14:16, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Cheryl Fullerton

Cheryl Fullerton (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Cheryl has mainly been focused on editing Craig Chaquico and Jefferson Starship, and caused various disputes, which I summarised in this thread. Since then, we've tried to resolve things, including a COI noticeboard thread. To cut a long story short, we can't prove Cheryl has a COI with Craig Chaquico, but there seems to be continual disruption, ignoring other people's advice, and just trying to insert a POV into these articles that I can't see anyone else wants.

I have said before that Cheryl is civil and polite and has tried to learn policies and guidelines, but she has taken up so much administrator time now, than I think our collective patience has run out and we need to do something else. So I am proposing that Cheryl Fullerton is topic banned from Craig Chaquico, broadly construed. Discuss. Ritchie333 14:42, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. Ritchie333 14:42, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support as I stated at the COIN discussion, I just am not seeing CF as being able to edit neutrally surrounding Craig Chaquico, and based on her interactions with other editors at various talks and noticeboards, I think Ritchie is quite right. Enough is enough. This has been a time sink for too many editors at too many articles surrounding Chaquico for four years now. —valereee (talk) 14:53, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support topic ban. This has gone on way too long, and it is crystal clear that Cheryl Fullerton is 100% devoted to inserting Craig Chaquico's idiosyncratic view of the history of Jefferson Starship into Misplaced Pages articles, instead of neutrally summarizing what reliable independent sources say. Cullen Let's discuss it 15:24, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support because the time and patience of constructive editors is Misplaced Pages's most precious resource and Cheryl Fullerton is squandering that resource. I noticed in particular Ritchie333 writing at the COI noticeboard yesterday that he "ended up dropping out of the discussion through sheer exhaustion". I've never noticed Ritchie being particularly prone to exhaustion, and he could have used the same amount of Misplaced Pages time and energy for so many much better things. It's totally unacceptable to wear out editors through sheer stubbornness and bludgeoning. Bishonen | tålk 15:28, 14 May 2021 (UTC).

Can someone remove TPA from this IP?

• 70.249.170.51 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

They've been blocked for six months, but keep spam adding edit requests on their talk page (mostly to WP:VANDALISM, which is very subtle). ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 14:48, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Done Ritchie333 14:49, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Three rollbacks suffered

1 2 and 3 This despite the fact that twice in the comments I had tried to explain to the user in question that the community has not yet decided that he was right to eliminate my choice of a different headercolor for the athlete's infobox and that indeed a discussion at the project had been, some time ago, opened by me to explain the reasons for my choice to use a common headercolor for a certain category of female athletes. Notified on the user's talk page. --Kasper2006 (talk) 15:36, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

"indeed a discussion at the project had been, some time ago" - Really? What discussion? And why are you insisting on enforcing gender stereotypes on WP? Is it always pink for girls and blue for boys? What other views on women do you have? And you're not even consistent in applying this ill-though out idea across other articles. Lugnuts 16:10, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Lugnuts you see, the problem is not whether my idea is right or not, but the attitude of those do rollbacks without giving explanations (you did even rollback my ANI notice on your talk page, maybe because there were too many?) --Kasper2006 (talk) 16:23, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Uninvolved non-admin: Since we're evaluating everyone's behavior, Kasper2006, you also have a habit of not including edit summaries. After a couple of reverts, you started using edit summaries not to justify/explain your edits but simply to say that there aren't any guidelines against it. Lugnuts, since Kasper2006's edits are not "obvious vandalism", do you think it's fair to ask that you provide edit summaries when you revert? I know that this isn't the place for content disputes, but could someone direct me to the best place to build a consensus that these kinds of edits should never happen and that work can begin on undoing them all? Firefangledfeathers (talk) 16:54, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

@Lugnuts, please start using edit summaries and answering queries on your talk page when you've reverted someone. —valereee (talk) 17:20, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Unless a conversation has run its course, or in cases such as Kasper who are trying to WP:BAIT me, I always do. Thanks. Lugnuts 17:32, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

So you're arguing that "a certain category" of female athlete should have a pink background? My kneejerk reaction is that's mildly offensive on its face, but if you're arguing there's a discussion supporting that, you should provide a link. —valereee (talk) 16:25, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

@Valereee: I do not see this intention in fact, it is a completely innocent thing ... a simple distinction of gender which among other things, as you know exists in athletics competitions (men do not compete with women) and the utility 'user of Misplaced Pages is to see immediately from the infobox if those records, those results are male or female, among other things it is since 2012 that I assign this headercolor to female Italian athletes. I give you two links, one when I reported the thing to the project and the second when I asked the Lugnuts user for explanations for his systematic rollbacks. Explanations that obviously I have not had. --Kasper2006 (talk) 16:40, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Okay, that's not a discussion. It's a single post by you a month ago which no one has even answered. I don't think you can really use that as an ongoing discussion, but honestly I guess I'm going to involve myself here by !voting at that discussion. —valereee (talk) 17:17, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

• Just to be clear, the header is misleading. There has been no use of WP:ROLLBACK, a user right that can be revoked if misused, but just the undo button (without a edit summary), which every editor has.-- P-K3 (talk) 16:59, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

This was the last time that Kasper accused me of wrong-doings. In this case he was making sweeping statements about people's ethnicity/language spoken. That's why I pretty much ignore this user. Lugnuts 17:46, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

There may be a language issue here. Kasper2006, are you aware that a "rollback" is a particular kind of revert, done with a special tool, that generally is used for vandalism and other bad-faith edits? If an editor is abusing rollback, they can lose their right to use the tool. That's why editors mentioned both here and at the previous complaint by you about Lugnuts that they hadn't actually rollbacked your edits but had instead reverted them. —valereee (talk) 18:22, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Kasper2006, you've been here long enough to know that it is the responsibility of the person making the change to get consensus for the change if it is challenged. You were bold on that article and changed the colour to pink, it was reverted, but you didn't take it to the talk page you instead just reverted again thereby starting an edit war. And the thread you link to above about making the header pink for female athletes (like seriously?) is quite clear that everyone who responded was against it. You're the one operating out of consensus and you're the one edit warring. Should Lugnuts have used an edit summary and not continued to edit war, most certainly, but you are the one who introduced the change so the onus is on your to take it to talk if you wish to continue to push for the change. Either way, it's quite obvious that making the headers in a female athlete's infobox pink is not supported by the community and would be an incredibly bad look for Misplaced Pages promoting outdated sexist attitudes and inappropriate colour gendering. Canterbury Tail talk 18:18, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

To be fair, all those responses were made in the last hour or so. —valereee (talk) 18:24, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Doh!!!!! Yes you're quite right, I should have spotted that. Sincerer apologies on that front. Canterbury Tail talk 18:32, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Zjholder issues

The user in question here now has a very substantial sock history at this point, continuing to stalk/harass me across other Wikis.

For reference...

Misplaced Pages:

• confirmed
• suspected

Wikimedia Commons:

• Caidin-Johnsohn29912forrest
• Grap e29912
• Forrest29912
• CaidinJohnsohn
• Cadinnn Johhnson
• Caidddin Johhnson

Simple English Misplaced Pages:

• Zoom29912

Wikidata:

• Mjforrest29912

Wikimedia Meta-Wiki:

• Messiah Forrest
• The Forrest 29912

There may be some others I'm forgetting right now. At this point it seems like there won't be any stop to this. I've now just recently realized I can disable talk page notifications on those other Wikis, so I've turned that off. Other than that, what would the best solution here be? I'm familiar with SPI and stuff but don't really have much knowledge in the LTA area... would an LTA report be justified at this point?... Magitroopa (talk) 16:17, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Gugark pogrom

There is some suspicious activity going on at that AFD. The article Gugark pogrom was taken to AFD in December 2020, and was kept. Recently, just a few months after the first AFD, it was nominated for deletion again, by Fractuallity (talk · contribs), which was an account created solely for the purpose of this AFD and which was soon banned for using a sock account to vote for deletion. According to posts there, there's some brigading taking place on forums like reddit (one example: ), and there are IPs and new accounts that pop up to cast a vote, mostly to have the article deleted. I would like to ask the admins to check the validity of the new nomination, and also please consider joining the discussion, because decisions on such articles should be made by the wider wiki community, and not by offwiki mobilization that apparently is taking place now. Grandmaster 19:37, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards