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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Che Guevara article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

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A fact from this article was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the On this day section on October 8, 2017 and October 8, 2019.

el Che

CTR+F and search for "el che"; my point is that his monicker, war name, nickname, or whatever, in spanish is El Che; The Che, not just Che. Thoughts?

Changing of terminology in lead

As per WP:BRD I made the following this amendment. Reason for this is the current terminology suggests that the only people who criticise Che are right wingers. In my opinion it undermines the neutrality of the article to confine criticism and/or opposition to Che (and his legacy) to one side of the political spectrum. The following is the current terminology:
"Guevara has evolved into a quintessential icon of various leftist movements. In contrast, his ideological critics on the right accuse him of authoritarianism and sanctifying violence against his political opponents."
I recommend a change to something along the lines of:
"Guevara's legacy is a controversial one: to some it has evolved into a quintessential icon of some leftist movement; others highlight his authoritarianism, his sanctifying violence against his political opponents and his unsuccessful period as Cuban Finance Minister." Alssa1 (talk) 10:39, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

@Guettarda: Hi, thanks for your input in your recent reversion, do you happen to have any thoughts on alternative terminology? Alssa1 (talk) 10:42, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Alssa1, I disagree for a myriad of reasons. Your proposal ignores that his status as a leftist icon is because of the reasons stated in the earlier part of the sentence (perceived martyrdom etc), and randomly cuts the line into an incomplete sentence. As Misplaced Pages it is our aim to write generally and represent the majority of the reliable sources on the matter. And the vast majority of those all say that Che’s status is often seen from the left or right perspective of an individual’s personal politics, i.e. that he is a polarizing figure often divided in a binary way down partisan lines. Hundreds of sources could be located attesting to this. The wording is saying that in contrast, those on the right believe the opposite, not that there universally aren’t critics of Guevara who fall outside of the right. But every minor obscure facet of the issue is not noteworthy in a brief encyclopedia entry. This wording came about after an editor attempted to include several far-right editorials about Guevara, and it is an attempt to include that dimension of the debate. Your wording declaratively calls his Finance Minister stint “unsuccessful”, and states explicitly that he was authoritarian (both in wikis voice), which are not our call to make as editors. However, it appears that another editor has already reverted your addition, stating “it makes it worse, not better”.  Redthoreau -- (talk) 08:07, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. I'll answer each criticism along the lines you've set out.

I accept wholeheartedly my sentence structure may not have been the most 'successful' and will work to improve it. But in regards to 'ignoring reasons', I think that's not legitimate; I don't think we need to repeatedly state in the lead why people like Che, and I don't agree that my suggested text (though I accept structural criticisms of it) undermines anything.
I am yet to see any reliable sources in the article that supports your claim of criticism deriving and individual's personal politics. Furthermore your claim is undermined by the statements in the existing "Che Guevara legacy" section of this page as well as the "Legacy of Che Guevara" dedicated page itself. You simply cannot say that that it's "often divided in a binary way down partisan lines".
The terminology makes suggestions beyond what it says 'on paper', we don't so crudely define criticism to political/historical figures based upon the politics of the individual making those criticisms, when the nature of those criticisms are not fringe theories. To give an example, much of the criticism of Nelson Mandela comes from the political right both in South Africa and further afield. However we don't make the crude statement about that criticism being "often divided in a binary way down partisan lines" there or anywhere else. So your statement is not only incorrect, but also creates a weird 'special standard' in the case of Che, it doesn't make sense.
I cannot comment on previous edits that I am not responsible for.
My statement regarding his time as Finance Minister is a paraphrase from a reliable source found lower down on the page itself (See section Economic vision and the "New Man"). To quote what's written there already "Whatever the merits or demerits of Guevara's economic principles, his programs were unsuccessful...". If the programs you implement as a minister are widely deemed to be unsuccessful by reliable sources, I don't think it's out of order or controversial for me to say that his stint was unsuccessful.
I am aware that another editor wasn't in favour of the change, however without a deeper explanation of what the problem actually is, it doesn't serve anyone. Alssa1 (talk) 12:05, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Alssa1. That line lacks in neutrality. You really think political moderates and moderate liberals aren’t critical of Che Guevara as well?Bjoh249 (talk) 22:01, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Capture and Death

Much of this section lacks a neutral point of view. It is taken from a single account of someone with a bias from the Left. The piece appeared in the New Left magazine Ramparts titled, "In Cold Blood: The Execution of Che by the CIA". The article has no footnotes or proofs offered.Scottca075 (talk) 01:03, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

That part appears to have 12 different sources, which seems plenty for a subsection. I'm very confused by what you mean with "a single account with a bias from the Left". Prinsgezinde (talk) 00:17, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Where is the left wing bias exactly ? Did Che Guevara die of old age ? Was he judged in a court of law ? Or was he indeed tortured and murdered by the CIA ? Aesma (talk) 19:06, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

May I suggest the account of the photo op is modified to reflect the fact that many who were present deny that the photo is genuine. This is reflected in the article on Rodriguez. This article might be an appropriate citation - https://www.dnaindia.com/world/report-documentary-alleges-last-photo-of-che-is-fake-1126943

Luis Peralta was never the Mayor of Oakland

Inaccurate text "Through his father, he was a descendant of Luis María Peralta, an early 19th century Mayor of San Jose, California"

Spanish/Mexican Sargent Luis Peralta was the grantee of Rancho San Antonio in 1820 https://en.wikipedia.org/Rancho_San_Antonio_(Peralta). This included later Oakland, California. He never lived in the area and died in 1851 https://en.wikipedia.org/Luis_Mar%C3%ADa_Peralta The first mayor of Oakland was attorney and master scammer Horace Carpentier https://en.wikipedia.org/Horace_Carpentier — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cv4wheeler (talk • contribs) 17:37, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Cv4wheeler, the wording has now been adjusted to omit the Mayor issue entirely.  Redthoreau -- (talk) 04:29, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Clarifying language in the introduction

In the first paragraph of the introduction, it should say "naturalised" (or naturalized) rather nationalised. To naturalize is to adopt a nationality not held at birth, while to nationalise means to cede control of something to the nation.

In the final paragraph of the introduction, the word 'sanctify' is incorrect. To sanctify means to make holy or sacred. I think the author might have meant 'sanction', but that still is a bit unclear. So I suggest 'accused of promoting authoritarianism and endorsing violence'. Charlesthelee (talk) 02:52, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

I realize I should have made this an edit request - apologies! Charlesthelee (talk) 03:07, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

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