Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 04:56, 15 February 2005

The city of Vác (Vacz in the text) is about 200km away from the Bakony mountain. So if Vác is OK., then the mountain's name is Börzsöny (or Pilis?), If the Bakony mountain is OK, then the name of the city is Veszprém. i will look after. Janos

Miles and meters looks awkward on the same page, especially abbreviation "m." looks confusing - meters or miles. Since Carpathian mountians are in Europe I would propose to use meters-kilometers, maybe also miles in brackets.

Should perhaps the lunar mountain range be given a separate article? Same with various other lunar geographical features which are named for terrestrial ones and/or philosophers, scientists... --Brion 08:25 Oct 4, 2002 (UTC)

Some of them should be fairly easy to disambiguate, eg. Copernicus crater. But I'm not sure what to do about the Carpathian Mountains, both features have the same name and are the same sort of thing. Fortunately, there probably won't be very extensive information about any of the mountain ranges on the Moon available at this time. Bryan

Lunar Carpathian Mountains? Carpathian Mountains (Moon)? --Brion 08:54 Oct 4, 2002 (UTC)

I'd go with the second (Moon) one, for consistancy. Bryan

False etymology for Carpathian deleted

The name is derived from the Slavonic word Chrb, which means mountain-range.

That's silly. The Dacian tribe of carps is closer phonetically and they lived in these mountains (the eastern slopes, in current Eastern Moldavia) long before the slavs arrived. Bogdan 20:34, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

"...the Indo-European word "korpata" which means mountain or rock." There is no such Indo-European word or root, is there? The google hits all refer to this statement here at Misplaced Pages (not aiding our credibility). "Korpata" appears through google only on Slavic-language sites. What's up? Can we correct this? Wetman 19:26, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Of course Korpata is the Slavic version, but it is based on an Indo-european root (probably something like "krpa"). It also appears in some non-Slavic languages, more exactly some Indian languages. I saved this information somewhere but I can't find find it right now. I'll post it tomorrow. OK ? Bogdan | Talk 20:57, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)

err... I lost that link about that Indian language. Anyway, I found that in Armenian (which is thought to be related to Thracian), "k'ar" means stone and in Albanian it's "gur". Bogdan | Talk 13:10, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Actually, in Albanian also, "karpë" means "rock". Bogdan | Talk 18:53, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

There is attested a Cuman word 'kerpic' that meant 'baked brick'. Just thought I'd throw another one in the pot. No connection implied. Decius 04:48, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The name of the Carpathians was used long time before the Cumans came. Anyway, it is pretty silly to name some mountains "the Brick Mountains". On the other side, the Rocky Mountains is a pretty common name. Bogdan | Talk 11:50, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I just wanted to add another word, because I had on file some Turkic words that have seeming cognates among Indo-European. The term 'Karpates' (>carpathian) dates back at least to Ptolemy (ad 85-165) and there is no way there can be any connection with the Cumans who arrived in the 11th century. Decius 21:05, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The term 'Carpathian' surely is directly linked to the name of the Carpi tribe. It's interesting though that there was an Aegean island named 'Karpathos'. Decius 04:51, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The old Czech word 'chrb' (hill, small hill, not 'mountain range') was also found as 'chrib', and there is in fact a place name formed from this word, but the name is Chribska, which is a far-cry from Carpathian. The 'chrb' idea is so scientifically worthless and ethnocentric that it should never again be mentioned in this or any other factual article. Decius 05:14, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Slightly off topic but I saw it mentioned that Armenian may be related to Thracian: despite the unfounded speculations of some individuals in the early half of the 20th century, there is no evidence of Thracian being close to Armenian, and I've looked at the table of PIE>Armenian sound-changes, and there is no way that those sound-changes could correspond with Dacian or Thracian. Looking at Thracian words and Romanian substratum words, it is obvious that the Romanian substratum words (and almost all the Thracian) have little relation or no relation to Armenian. Decius 05:30, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

There is no such proto-Indo-European root/word as 'karpa' or 'krpa', and the closest thing I found is *Kar, meaning 'hard' (from which comes Greek 'karuon'=nut; and English 'hard'). Subsequently, the PIE root *sker/ker came to my attention, and this is the source of the Albanian word 'karpe'. Decius 05:37, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

BTW, what is there a PIE root for Latin "crepare" (>Rom. "crăpa") = to crack ? Bogdan | Talk 11:50, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

My reference says Latin crepare is from PIE *Ker (listed as *Ker number 2, there being other Ker roots of different meaning). The root is defined as "an echoing root, base of various derivatives indicating loud noises or birds". Latin corvus is also from this root. Decius 21:15, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to apply the razor (not Occam's Razor, probably one of my razors) and fix up this article. Albanian 'karpe', is said to be from PIE *sker, also given as *ker. I don't know about the Armenian word 'kar' or the Czech word 'chrb', they may be from other roots.Decius 01:58, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

A possibility I thought of (just to add to the list, not the article): there is an Indo-European root *kwerp, which meant 'twisted, turned', from which comes such words as ancient Greek karpos (wrist). Maybe the Carpathians were the 'the twisted, or turning mountains', because as you can see from the map, the mountain chain makes a turn in Romania. Also, take a look at a map showing the bent shape of the island of Karpathos: the shape is reminiscent of the curve of the Carpathians. Who knows. Maybe the meaning behind 'Karpates' was 'bent, twisted' mountains, and the Carpi tribes were named after the mountains. Or maybe 'karpates' is derived from the PIE *sker/ker, as indicated in many references, and the name of the island may or may not be from *sker. Decius 22:04, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Chrawat and Karpa, hmm...

As Chrawat, it was first applied to the inhabitants of the region, whence it passed in the form Krapat or Karpa as the name of the mountain range. -- i'd say this is garbage, should be in quarantine -- Criztu 12:26, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It appears to be from the 1911 Britannica and it this word does not seem to be mentioned anywhere else on the internet. Bogdan | Talk 12:59, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Chrawat people? They surely mean the Chrowats (many spellings occuring: hrvat, harvat), the ancestors of the Croats . I'm not a specialist, but it looks to me like the larger stone tablet says 'choroathos'. The popular idea (and probably correct) about the Chrowats is that they were originally Iranian, and became Slavicized, like the Bulgars. According to a map, in 1000 ad there was a Chrowat kingdom in the area of what is now roughly southern Poland. I seriously doubt they would have given their name, or would have named, the Carpathian mountains, for a number of reasons: namely, because the Chrowats first arrived in Europe (excluding the area around the Azov sea) in the 7th century ad, and the term 'Carpathian' occurs earlier than 165 ad. Also, I know of no movement from 'chrowat'>'carpath', and I know of no instance where the 'w/v' in 'chrowat' became a 'p', though the 'w/v' looks to have become a 'b' in some instances. There are many family names, such as 'krobath' and 'charvat' that are said to derive from 'chrowat'. 'Charvat' might yield 'charbat', but the family name 'charvat' (taken from contemporary phonebooks) is hardly evidence for the idea that 'Carpathian' derives from 'chrowat'. I also found a German with the name R****t Chrawat, so some of his ancestors were Chrowats. Decius 22:43, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The idea from the "1911" (is it from the 1911 Brittanica? even if it is, irrelevant) sounds like pure speculation, and outdated references like that don't count (because if they did, I could add all kinds of theories to all kinds of articles). It will be erased, and that's that. Decius 23:20, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Both the 'chrb' idea and the 'chrowat' idea date back to the anonymous contributor 12.255.158.77 who first started the article at 3:01 Mar 24 2002. The two different ideas are mutually exclusive: reading the original article, you can tell from the way the two ideas are presented that Anonymous did not realize that the two ideas are not compatible. Not only are they not compatible, one is impossible (chrb), and the other idea is also impossible, as probably the Chrowats first arrived in Europe in the 7th century ad. Decius 23:40, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The earliest mention that I've seen of the Chrowats in the Carpathian area is the mention of them in the 'Bavarian Geographon', allegedly written circa ad 666-890 (very vague), so the 7th century would be the earliest mention of the Croats in the area. Decius

The first documented use of 'Carpathian' is before 165 ad, and that predates the Iranian (?) Chrowat arrival in the 7th century ad, so obviously the quote is wrong. Even if, without a shred of evidence, you push back the date of their arrival in Europe by a vast number of centuries, there is still no evidence that 'Carpathian' would have anything to do with 'chrowat'. The similarity is not even that close, and it is a mere accident of history. Decius 23:27, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The etymology of 'chrowat/hrvat' is, according to this site, from Old Iranian 'hara', meaning 'defenders': . I don't vouch for the credibility of either website. They seem to have been written by Croatian 'nationalists', so it presents their views. Some historians maybe don't support the Iranian origin of 'croat', I'm not sure. Decius 02:52, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

For those who understand German, the scientific derivation of the name of the Carpathians is in the German wikipedia article...Juro 02:54, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

From what I can read, the German article supports the connection with the Albanian word, karpe, an idea already mentioned in this article, and I think it says that the connection to Slavic 'chrb' is false. If so, sounds okay by me, and so the 'chrb' and the 'chrowat' speculations are erased according to policy, because they are totally false. Decius 03:05, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I've verified the root that the Karpaten article mentions: *sker, also given as *ker, 'to cut, that which is cut, rough, broken off'. So words for 'rock' and 'rugged', 'rough', come from this root (note: I'm not saying those English words come from this root; I mean the ideas; some actual English words from this root are 'scarp', 'sharp', and 'scrap'). The Albanian word 'karpe' (though my book doesn't mention this) is, according to that article, from this root, so our English article should also mention the root. This is not the *ker (number 2; pertaining to loud sounds) that the Latin word crepare comes from. In most references, *sker is the prime entry, so you won't find *ker unless you look under *sker (in others words, you won't find it under 'k'). Decius 03:20, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The English word 'scarp' (from *sker) means, as a noun, 'a steep slope, cliff'; as a verb, 'to cut or make into a steep slope'. The English word is from Italian scarpa. The Italian word is of unknown origin (maybe from some Germanic tribes, because English 'sharp' was once 'scearp', also from *sker). I brought up this word 'scarp' because the meaning of 'steep cliff' is close to 'mountain'. Decius 03:50, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

In different languages

The name 'Carpathian' should be given in more languages (Romanian, Polish, Slovak, etc.). Decius 04:38, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)