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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Hanfu article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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Hanbok is not related to ancient Chinese clothing

Please stop adding Korean Hanbok to the list other traditional clothing that was influenced by ancient Chinese clothing. Please take note of Hanbok#History. Hanbok originated from a different tradition of clothing style, and has important differences to ancient Chinese clothing. The basic composition of Hanbok is an upper garment, jeogori, and a lower garment, baji. The lower garment, baji, are trousers, introduced to ancient Korea by steppe cultures that is adapted to horse-riding. This style is called hu clothing in China, which means barbarian clothing, and it was first introduced to China by King Wuling of Zhao, who decided that Chinese clothing was not fit for horse-riding, and adopted clothing of northern nomadic cultures, hu clothing, for his cavalry forces. Chinese style clothing either consists of a robe without pants or uses skirts as the lower garment. This distinction is clearly made in this very article, where it says Han Chinese use skirts called chang, and Manchu use pants called ku. Japanese kimono is an example of clothing that is stylistically related to traditional Chinese clothing, which consists of either a piece of robe or a two-piece garment with the lower garment being a skirt. If you wish to add some traditional Korean clothing, please add a valid type of clothing based on reliable sources and common sense. By common sense, I mean not confusing a clothing style that uses trousers and a clothing style that uses skirts. I think a good candidate is Dopo (clothing) to mention as a type of traditional Korean clothing related to traditional Chinese clothing. According to the Encylopedia of Korean Culture, dopo is a type of overcoat commonly wore by Confucians during Joseon dynasty. It originated from the Buddhist monk clothing jangsam, which itself came from China, reflecting China's climate and clothing style. VeryGoodBoy (talk) 14:39, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Hanbok is related to the hanfu!! Lizzycozy (talk) 22:59, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

"The territories of Korea used to be the ancient land of Han and Tang. Our costumes and relics conformed to Song. The kingdom system and structure adopted from Ming. It is rightful and legal to inherit the true name of Greater China and her culture. --------Gojong of Korea, Veritable Records of the Joseon Dynasty Volume 36 AD 1897." From the description of Gojong, we can know that Hanbok comes from Hanfu in Song Dynasty, what you are claiming does not make sense. Kirinchan (talk) 0:15, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

I can't not find source on Veritable Records of the Joseon Dynasty Volume 36. where did this came from? by the way Veritable Records of the Joseon Dynasty Volume 36 is not 100% reliable due to Japanese occupation.

• this site show complete source of Veritable Records of the Joseon Dynasty Volume 36 http://sillok.history.go.kr/search/inspectionDayList.do

Hanbok, Korea

Did you know Dongbukgongjeong? It is the China' government's project to make Korean history, to China history. Actually, Hanfu is one of Dongbukgongjeong, too. It means China's traditional cloth is Chipao, but they still saying "our traditional cloth is hanfu(fusion Hanbok). Yes, there are the Hanfu, too. It is China's cloth that influenced by Hanbok. But China still saying fusion Habok is Hanfu!!

Please edit them, Lizzycozy. Lizzycozy (talk) 12:55, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Hanfu is not related to Dongbukgongjeong. I don't think that rumours and speculations have any places on this Misplaced Pages page Aklys Erida (talk) 16:11, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

You have no evidence that Hanfu is influenced by Hanbok, but we Chinese people can read the history written by Korean people and find the truth different from what you are claiming：

고려사권(History of Goryeo) 137권 (高麗史 137卷): AD 1392

“復行洪武年號，襲大明衣冠,禁胡服。”

“Joseon Dynasty shall adopt the era name of Hongwu of Ming, wear Ming costumes and headgears, ban Hu Dress.”

고종실록 고종 36권(Veritable Records of the Joseon Dynasty Volume 36 ) 朝鮮王朝實錄 高宗 36卷： AD 1897

“我邦疆土, 係是漢、唐古地, 衣冠文物, 悉遵宋、明遺制, 接其統, 而襲其號, 無所不可。-高宗”

"The territories of Korea used to be the ancient land of Han and Tang. Our costumes and relics conformed to Song. The kingdom system and structure adopted from Ming. It is rightful and legal to inherit the true name of Greater China and her culture - Gojong of Korea"

Kirinchan (talk) 0:36 , 16 February 2021 (UTC)

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Origin of Term Hanfu

Lately, there have been many edits on the origin of the term Hanfu. This is what I have found about it being termed by internet users:

→ "The term hanfu was coined by internet users recently to describe the clothing of Han people in ancient China before Qing Dynasty (1644-1911)." (China Daily, 2019)

→ " said Zhou, referring to the term coined by internet users to describe clothing worn by Han Chinese before the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911)." (China.org.cn, 2019)

The only websites which mention that "The term "Hanfu" was created in recent years by Internet users to describe the Han people's clothing during the Han Dynasty (206 BC – 220 AD)" is from website ChinaHighlights (which is blacklisted by Misplaced Pages). However, from the China Today, it is written that "Most people think that Hanfu refers to the costumes of the Han Dynasty (206 BC - AD 220), which is a misunderstanding. Hanfu first appeared in China more than 3,000 years ago and was evolved with fashion in the following dynasties".

Moreover, generally, most journal articles and newspaper articles and websites that I have seen refer to the Hanfu as the clothing of the Han ethnic Chinese in China worn for thousand of years before the Manchu Conquest and before the establishment of Qing Dynasty:

→ As seen in all links I have put above and the following links below

→ https://www.koreascience.or.kr/article/JAKO200916263468106.pdf

→ https://www.theworldofchinese.com/2013/06/a-brief-intro-to-hanfu/

→ https://www.cnn.com/style/article/hanfu-rise-intl-hnk/index.html

→ https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1098370.shtml

N.B. All the sources above are written in English. Aklys Erida Aklys Erida (talk) 15:26, 2 February 2021 (UTC) Aklys Erida

More sources needed

I was wondering if anyone has more sources which could be used to develop the following section:

• Six dynasties (also known as Wei, Jin, Northern and Southern dynasties)

• Sui dynasty

Side note: I am adding as much info that I can found from English sources; but in all transparency, I feel that those info should be double-checked with their corresponding Chinese sources, if possible.

For example, gown and robe has been used in English literature and scholarly journals and books, but it could also be "Shenyi" or "Paofu" if written in Chinese literature. Because of that, I tried to keep the terms used as closely as I could find it in English literature, e.g. I kept it as Shenyi and Paofu whenever the authors call it as such.

My Chinese is not high enough for academic papers, which is why I favour english sources, I am sorry that this is the limit of my contribution to this Misplaced Pages page.

There are a lot of Chinese articles which talk about Han Chinese clothing but are unfortunately not available in English; the database that I know of and which is open accessed is the following :

• http://www.cnsilk.cn/en/ (while the full-text tends to be in Chinese, the abstracts are usually in English).

Thank you for all your dedication and hard work,

Aklys Erida Aklys Erida (talk) 03:32, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 February 2021

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add them on Ming dynasty's section after the paragraph for Vietnamese clothing influenced by Ming

there's a paper about this topic https://iahs.fudan.edu.cn/swfupload/uploadfiles/file/%E8%A1%A3%E5%86%A0%E4%B8%8E%E8%AE%A4%E5%90%8C_%E6%98%8E%E5%88%9D%E6%9C%9D%E9%B2%9C%E5%8D%8A%E5%B2%9B%E8%A2%AD%E7%94%A8_%E5%A4%A7%E6%98%8E%E8%A1%A3%E5%86%A0_%E5%8E%86%E7%A8%8B%E5%88%9D%E6%8E%A2_%E5%BC%A0%E4%BD%B3.pdf written by 张佳 Zhangjia，FuDan university Chinese literature Academy research fellow 复旦大学文史研究院副研究员

Korean Hanbok was greatly influenced by the Great Ming, according to the History of Ming, Taejo of Joseon had sent requests to Nanjing serval times for changing the nation's title into Joseon.闻皇太子薨，遣使表慰，并请更国号，帝命仍古号曰朝鲜. February of 1402 Jianwen Emperor sent Pan wenkui and other government officials to grant the kingdom sets of official headwears and clothing. Joseon as the vassal state of Ming, Taejo of Joseon received the title of the vassal prince(亲王), with the status of Ealdorman(郡王).帝遣鸿胪寺行人潘文奎来赐王冕服，其敕书曰: “敕朝鲜国王李芳远：日者陪臣来朝，屡以冕服为请，事下有司。稽诸古制，以为四夷之国，虽大曰子。且朝鲜本郡王爵，宜赐以五章或七章服。朕惟春秋之义，远人能自进于中国，则中国之。今朝鲜固远郡也，而能自进于礼义，不得待以子、男礼。且其地逖在海外，非恃中国之宠数，则无以令其臣民。兹特命赐以亲王九章之服，遣使者往谕朕意The year of 1403(永乐元年), Joseon sent more requests for literature and clothing for royal families from Ming and had shown the wish to learn, inheritance Ming's etiquettes. 嘉其能慕中国礼，赐金印、诰命、冕服九章、圭玉、珮玉，妃珠翠七翟冠、霞帔、金坠，及经籍彩币表里。为中国之番邦，故历代亲信于中国，受封爵，朝贡不绝，礼仪之道不缺，衣冠制度，悉同于中国各代之制，故曰 written by Xu JuZheng (서거정),蓋我朝鮮地雖海外，衣冠文物悉同中國written by Choe Bu (崔溥/최부, 1454–1504), the two Joseon officals stated they had adapted Ming's political system, style of etiquette, crown rituals and absorbed other cultural aspects due to the relationships, trades, cultural exchange with the Great Ming.

these links are portraits of hanbok and hanfu in Ming, you can clearly see the similarity Ming's Aoqun 故宮博物院藏《甲申十同年圖》government official clothing king of Joseon朝鮮王朝開國國王Joseon women's clothing

Ottopaappa (talk) 20:29, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. h 09:29, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

why not put korean hanbok in joseon period being strongly influenced by Ming if Vietnamese contents are there? (ming dynasty section) hanbok wore by the officials during early Joseon to mid Joseon were originated from Ming, they received them through diplomatic trips, the sources I entered are all traceable and fact, some of the original documents are now stored in US, one of them is now kept in Harvard university. so its not influenced, its copy, exactly the same '衣冠制度，悉同于中国各代之制，故曰', and the current hanbok is obviously arranged from these Ming clothing in Joseon, it is most obvious for males hanbok as what the king wears and other courts clothings still remain the same until the end of Joseon dynasty. there's many black and white pictures taken by foreigners as evidence. match perfectly with court clothing for male in Ming(because yes they had to wear as a vassal state to ming, even after ming's collapse and they still kept the outfits until the Japanese arrived)

Diplomatic documents clearly stated they sent officials to Ming begged the emperor to grant them Ming-style of clothing(赐服), headwear and other things, I also named two person who are Korean, working for the joseon at that time, written many sentences indicate court style clothing for officials and the royal family were the same as Ming's, because its what they supposed to wear as the vassal state to Ming, such styles evolved to the current hanbok when Ming collapsed and Qin took over mainland China. for the court style clothing(官服）, it still remained the same as Ming's, the king wears Mangfu 蟒服（equvilant to crown prince in Ming) it has 4 claws, different to the Pao Ming's emperor wears(dragon, 5 claws) my sources are not only written by chinese, there's written by Korean as well, but as everyone knows, its in Chinese characters, so i put zh as the language (they were still using hanja/chinese words until one king invented Korean letters we know nowaday) this is my explanation why the sources are all in 'chinese'.

Ottopaappa (talk) 20:17, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

References

1. Zhang, Tingyu. History of Ming chap.320 明史 卷320 外国一·朝鲜 (in Chinese). Government of Qin, 1782. Retrieved 2021-02-06.
2. 朝鲜李朝实录中的中国史料 (in Chinese). Zhonghua Book Company. 1980. p. 167. Retrieved 2021-02-06.
3. Zhang, Tingyu. History of Ming chap.320 明史 卷320 外国一·朝鲜 (in Chinese). Government of Qin, 1782. Retrieved 2021-02-06.
4. Chinese history in the historic document 'history of Lee's Joseon' 朝鲜李朝实录中的中国史料 (in Chinese). Zhonghua Book Company. 1980. p. 167-168. Retrieved 2021-02-06.
5. 최, 부. 漂海录: 中国行记 Documentation of Bohai, trip to China (in Chinese). 社会科学文献出版社, 1992. Retrieved 2021-02-06.
6. 최, 부. 世宗庄宪大王实录·五礼·序文 (in Chinese). Kingdom of Joseon. Retrieved 2021-02-06.

Semi-protected edit request on 15 February 2021

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Remove: Hanfu influenced the traditional clothing of many neighbouring cultures, such as Korean Hanbok

Hanbok was not influenced by Hanfu. Please remove the line to show correct information.

Evidence as below:

The hanbok can be traced back to the Three Kingdoms of Korea period source: Myeong-Jong, Yoo (2005). 《The Discovery of Korea: History-Nature-Cultural Heritages-Art-Tradition-Cities》. Discovery Media. P123 Macdonald, Fiona, ed. (2004). Peoples of Eastern Asia. Marshall Cavendish. p. 366. Lee, Samuel Songhoon (2015). Hanbok: Timeless Fashion Tradition. Seoul Selection. Korean Culture and Information Service (South Korea) (2014). Guide to Korean Culture: Korea's cultural heritage. p. 90.

Early forms of Hanbok can be seen in the art of Goguryeo tomb murals in the same period. source: Korean Culture and Information Service (South Korea) (2014). Guide to Korean Culture: Korea's cultural heritage. 길잡이미디어. p. 90. Condra, Jill, ed. (2008). The Greenwood Encyclopedia of Clothing Through World History, Volume II. Greenwood Publishing Group. p. 223. Nelson, 1993, p.7 & p.213-214

The Greenwood encyclopedia actually states that the hanbok was influenced by Chinese style, and the the tomb murals have a Chinese art aesthetic. The other source you provided says that by 648 Mandarin robes were used by royalty in Korea as well. I don't think that source is enough to overturn the current wording. The lead says it influenced the design of the hanbok, not preceded or originated it. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:03, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:40, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Too long

@Gyuli Gula and Aklys Erida:

The article is very detailed and well written, thank you for the massive improvement. A problem though -- the article is now well above the recommended readable size. It is among the top 200 longest articles of Misplaced Pages and if we exclude lists then it may well be within the top 50. And some sections (for example the history) are already so complex that it may be difficult for readers without sufficient existing knowledge on the subject to follow through.

If more substantial edits are on the way, perhaps consider splitting off some of the sections? The sections for each dynasties, for example, already appears long enough to be their own articles as "Clothing in XX dynasty" or "Fashion in XX dynasty". Esiymbro (talk) 07:58, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

@Esiymbro and Aklys Erida: If this is ok with you, I will edit the article, I think that there is a few sections which could be merged with other hanfu pages (e.g. list of Hanfu, ruqun, etc.). At the same time, I will start removing duplicates from the history section. Maybe create a few more wikipedia pages...?

@Esiymbro and Gyuli Gula: Hi both, sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I don't mind it at all. I am very busy these days, so I will only have time to do small edits. @Gyuli Gula:, please feel free do so :) Thank you for your hard work to both of you AE Aklys Erida (talk) 12:43, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

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