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| This is not the first case where I've seen ultra high quality posed images uploaded by close connections to a subject in a way to clearly try to manage and influence their public reputation... usually to portray somebody disreputable in a positive light. I've brought this here directly because this is a very high level topic. How do you see NPOV and its applicability to images? If NPOV applies to images, how can it be enforced when editors seem very willing to ignore these violations. In particular, what's your opinion on this particular photo? Does or should it violate NPOV? Is this kind of image what we want to encourage on Misplaced Pages? ] (]) 14:13, 19 June 2021 (UTC) | This is not the first case where I've seen ultra high quality posed images uploaded by close connections to a subject in a way to clearly try to manage and influence their public reputation... usually to portray somebody disreputable in a positive light. I've brought this here directly because this is a very high level topic. How do you see NPOV and its applicability to images? If NPOV applies to images, how can it be enforced when editors seem very willing to ignore these violations. In particular, what's your opinion on this particular photo? Does or should it violate NPOV? Is this kind of image what we want to encourage on Misplaced Pages? ] (]) 14:13, 19 June 2021 (UTC) | ||
| == Salute! == | |||
| Hey Jimmy Wales, the founder of Misplaced Pages, homeland of the distorted information, anti-Turkish propaganda, asparagus information, dissemination aimed at humiliating Islam! | |||
| I just want to say that you are a fat fuck. If my dad would have the opportunity you have in his time, no doubt he would make ten times better than you done. | |||
| Your voice sounds like Toreno the fucking agent in GTA San Andreas, but you're fucking more annoying. Anyways, goodbye boomer! ] (]) 04:55, 20 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 04:55, 20 June 2021
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 | Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates – he has an open door policy. He holds the founder's seat on the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees. The current trustees occupying "community-selected" seats are Doc James, Pundit and Raystorm. The Wikimedia Foundation's Lead Manager of Trust and Safety is Jan Eissfeldt. |
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Centralized discussion
- AI-generated images depicting living people
- Blocks for promotional activity outside of mainspace
- Voluntary RfAs after resignation
- Proposed rewrite of WP:BITE
- LLM/chatbot comments in discussions
WMF bullying of Harej, Deskana, Anomie and Adamw
Harej, Deskana, Anomie and Adamw have been bullied by their employer, the WMF. Former bureaucrat WJBscribe had already asked if Jimbo could offer assurances that this will be properly investigated before Deskana, Anomie and Adamw joined Harej in stepping forward. Jimbo, I understand you're a busy man - but a response could be really reassuring here. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 21:32, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
- Clearly I am unable to comment on specific personnel matters, particularly since I've not been informed in any way privately of any details beyond the statements that have been made publicly. I can offer assurances - which may not be as meaningful as you and I both might like - about the general principles of a proper investigation and resolution of any allegations of bullying is incredibly important and of course the right thing to do. I have a regular call with Amanda Keton (normally to discuss global public policy issues that regularly arise) and we briefly spoke about this on our last call, and it sounded to me like the WMF is on the case.
- Please do keep in mind that I do not work at the WMF, no employees report to me, and so in a very real sense I'm a community member hearing about this in the same way that you are. I promise to be a strong voice for our movement principles, as represented for example by our Universal Code of Conduct, and a strong voice for WMF being a great place to work, absolutely free of bully, harassment, and discrimination.
- As I say, it would be wrong of me to speak about specific personnel matters when I'm not informed enough to do so.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:37, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
- I'm glad you made this statement and I understand you can't comment on specifics. I also share Adamw and Deskana's view that an "appeal to Jimmy" shouldn't be the way to get this on the WMF's radar. But it's more or less all we've got? It feels like your talk page is the primary "in" for the community to make the WMF aware of something. Most of the WMF staff hardly ever responds to anything on-wiki, or if they do, they have no power to do anything. Hearing you say that you don't work for the WMF, no employees report to you and that you are more or less just another community member is a bit scary. Because it means that one "in" to draw the attention of the WMF was an illusion after all. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 10:16, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
- @Alexis Jazz: It would be highly inappropriate governance for the Wikimedia Foundation for any staff member to report to Jimmy or any other Board member. The Executive Director reports to the Board as a whole, and then all staff ladder up to the Executive Director. Also, Board members are almost never considered employees of the company they direct. The Board is supposed to handle strategic direction and vision, not individual cases like those reported here. There's nothing unusual about any of this. --Deskana (talk) 10:41, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
- Deskana, I was repeating the points Jimbo made, the more important one of those was him being "in a very real sense a community member hearing about this in the same way that you are". If Jimbo as a board member and founder can't put an item on the agenda and demand it doesn't get ignored, maybe no one can. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 11:48, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
- To be clear, I can certainly get things on the agenda at board meetings - as can any board member. And of course I agree with everyone who has said "If the channel to get the attention of the WMF is discussion on Jimbo's talk page, then that's not good" - but that fortunately isn't true. I don't think there *is* a channel for "some community members are unhappy about a personnel matter that is between a staff member and their manager" but nor should there be, for the same reasons. That is not to say that there should not be appropriate mechanisms (HR department, whistleblower policies that are enforced correctly, etc.) for this sort of thing (there are, and as in every organization they should be constantly re-examined for potential improvements), just that a stir on talk pages isn't really a particularly ideal way to handle any of this. (That isn't a criticism of anyone or anything that has happened here - it's a comment about a desire for a better set of arrangements.)
- In this case, I wouldn't expect any board member to respond to any specific questions about a specific personnel matter, and I don't think community members really expect that either. It would be... unhealthy... to say the least.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:59, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
- It would be nice to see more two-way communication at WP:VPWMF, our official place for community-WMF discussion. (Clearly, that's not a place for discussion of individual former WMF employees' workplace experience). There may be some corporate culture issues preventing that page from working (who is authorised to speak and are these the same people that understand the issues?), something the Board could think about. —Kusma (talk) 12:05, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
- @Deskana: Other organizations sometimes have impartial ombudspeople that report directly to the board and circumvent the existing "chain of command" so to speak. While appealing to Jimbo here might be inappropriate, the general idea of wanting a neutral figure that can bypass the WMF structure in cases of harassment is a good one. In my opinion the WMF should consider having an organization ombudsperson (not the existing m:Ombuds commission but someone to deal with complaints from WMF employees) so these issues have a better way of being addressed in the future. Chess (talk) (please use
{{reply to|Chess}}on reply)Template:Z181 07:01, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
- Deskana, I was repeating the points Jimbo made, the more important one of those was him being "in a very real sense a community member hearing about this in the same way that you are". If Jimbo as a board member and founder can't put an item on the agenda and demand it doesn't get ignored, maybe no one can. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 11:48, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
- @Alexis Jazz: It would be highly inappropriate governance for the Wikimedia Foundation for any staff member to report to Jimmy or any other Board member. The Executive Director reports to the Board as a whole, and then all staff ladder up to the Executive Director. Also, Board members are almost never considered employees of the company they direct. The Board is supposed to handle strategic direction and vision, not individual cases like those reported here. There's nothing unusual about any of this. --Deskana (talk) 10:41, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
- I'm glad you made this statement and I understand you can't comment on specifics. I also share Adamw and Deskana's view that an "appeal to Jimmy" shouldn't be the way to get this on the WMF's radar. But it's more or less all we've got? It feels like your talk page is the primary "in" for the community to make the WMF aware of something. Most of the WMF staff hardly ever responds to anything on-wiki, or if they do, they have no power to do anything. Hearing you say that you don't work for the WMF, no employees report to you and that you are more or less just another community member is a bit scary. Because it means that one "in" to draw the attention of the WMF was an illusion after all. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 10:16, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
- In my case, a now-former WMF "Vice President" set up a meeting with me (a rank and file developer) and refused my polite request to share the topic or agenda for the meeting. When I came to this meeting, the now-former WMF Vice President of Human Relations was also in attendance, though unannounced. I was informed that an internal staff email I had written, pushing back against what I saw as excesses of management, was cause for putting a formal complaint on my personnel file. I had used the phrase "red herring" and was told my "tone" was too forceful. The HR manager also told me that a handful of messages we had exchanged, a (in my opinion) friendly discussion about the potential for reform and possible ways to accomplish it, where this manager encouraged my exploration, were in fact undesired and they implied this would be recorded in the complaint as well.
- Coincidentally, at the time I was also trying to organize a union with many other employees, and as the main breadwinner for two small children I felt it necessary to shield myself from further retribution by pointing to the Sarbanes-Oxley Act and other protections for whistleblowers and labor organizers. Perhaps also a coincidence, my full-time pay was soon reduced by at least 65% for several months while I lived in Peru, although I made it clear that I would be returning to the San Francisco Bay and would need every penny of my projected savings to re-enter the housing market there. I do feel that "bullying" is the right word for what I experienced. I've kept detailed notes and hardcopies of the context and exchanges, which I'm happy to provide.
- However, Jimmy Wales was a key member of the group I was pushing against: the Wikimedia Foundation Board. He still sits on the Board and as far as I can tell there has been no significant reform of the antidemocratic structure which legitimizes this Board. I resent the patriarchal premise of this talk page, that contributors are left to beg the most famous of Misplaced Pages's founders to investigate already well-known issues, in his volunteer capacity, rather than having a proper democratic means of oversight. I don't see what good can be accomplished by having a conversation here, and I will not be reassured short of a really extraordinary statement. —Adamw (talk) 08:35, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
- That sounds a lot like union busting. MarioGom (talk) 23:28, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
- @Alexis Jazz: I wasn't bullied. My experience left a bad taste in my mouth but it was quite different from what Harej and Adamw have described. Unlike Adamw, I have no issues with Jimmy Wales or the board; I acknowledge Adamw's concerns as legitimate, and I don't personally share them, and that's fine. I personally have little interest in pursuing this further. I shared my experience with Harej so that he'd know he's not alone, not so that it could be turned into some kind of investigation at the board level. I agree with Adamw that that an "appeal to Jimmy" has a strangely patriarchal tone to it, and I agree with Jimmy that speaking to him about it isn't an appropriate way to address this and that it'd be inappropriate for him to comment on specific cases. So, in summary, I don't think it's helpful to lump our experiences together, and I don't think a conversation on this page is the right way to do this. --Deskana (talk) 09:09, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
- I am baffled at how people who grew up in tiny Connecticut towns where 95% of the people are white and the median income is over $200,000. were ever picked to run the outfit ? I mean, wtf is going on with the management selection process? CONTEXTKID (talk) 02:11, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
- That's a very odd comment, I must say.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:48, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
- I'm saying our last CEO had a background of Council on Foreign Relations,Wilton, Connecticut,Eurasia Group which seems to me to be a background much too tilted toward American political, generational, and privileged Establishment to have been picked to run perhaps the broadest and least classist entity in existence. An entity which would likely require lots of experience managing a wide range of personalities, especially difficult and esoteric personalities; not just the predictable, flag waving, blue blooded, American types. I'm blaming the selection process, not the person selected. CONTEXTKID (talk) 03:16, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
- That kind of attitude exposes a bias that is just as unwanted as any other bias. Where you worked before is not who you are and does not determine your suitability for a role (or not) or make you more likely to be a bully. QuiteUnusual (talk) 08:30, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
- Speaking as someone from another one of those Connecticut towns, a little further northeast (close enough that I'm within easy driving distance of Wilton), you seem like you'd be stunned if you met me in person before I told you that. People here are just as varied here as anywhere else, hardly all of us are stereotypical scions of wealth; I, for one, am from a comfortably upper-middle-class family, but you wouldn't confuse me with the Kennedy clan, since the Irish on my side was very much working class. It always amazes me that people who say such things about diversity seem willing to reduce us to some monolith. And if you think Connecticut, about the most ridiculously Democratic state in the country, is a bunch of flag-waving bible-thumpers, you should come here sometime. I've been to every town in this state, and the KKK doesn't have their operations in the "Gold Coast"; they hang out up in Shelton, and no one would confuse that, the gateway to the Valley, as the region of generational wealth around here. (We can be a bit laconic, but seriously, we're generally happy to have anyone out of state actually stay for a visit!) The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 16:02, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
- I'm saying our last CEO had a background of Council on Foreign Relations,Wilton, Connecticut,Eurasia Group which seems to me to be a background much too tilted toward American political, generational, and privileged Establishment to have been picked to run perhaps the broadest and least classist entity in existence. An entity which would likely require lots of experience managing a wide range of personalities, especially difficult and esoteric personalities; not just the predictable, flag waving, blue blooded, American types. I'm blaming the selection process, not the person selected. CONTEXTKID (talk) 03:16, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
- That's a very odd comment, I must say.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:48, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
Blocking
Has a admin ever blocked you? TigerScientist Chat > contribs 18:55, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, a few times. see log here. A variety of cases: In error, jokes, once my account was compromised, etc.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:36, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
- You seem to have had a rough year in 2007, with a minor relapse in 2016, but happily you’ve become a model Wikipedian since then. Jehochman 10:03, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
- Well, I don't know, 75% of his edits are on talkpages... ;-) Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:58, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
- Well, Jimmy was always a model Wikimedian (I'm saying this as this isn't my home wiki). Just the other admins aren't ;) SHB2000 (talk) 09:44, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
- You seem to have had a rough year in 2007, with a minor relapse in 2016, but happily you’ve become a model Wikipedian since then. Jehochman 10:03, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
- Now that's funny! Atsme 💬 📧 21:08, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
Editing news 2021 #2
Read this in another language • Subscription list for this newsletter
Earlier this year, the Editing team ran a large study of the Reply Tool. The main goal was to find out whether the Reply Tool helped newer editors communicate on wiki. The second goal was to see whether the comments that newer editors made using the tool needed to be reverted more frequently than comments newer editors made with the existing wikitext page editor.
The key results were:
- Newer editors who had automatic ("default on") access to the Reply tool were more likely to post a comment on a talk page.
- The comments that newer editors made with the Reply Tool were also less likely to be reverted than the comments that newer editors made with page editing.
These results give the Editing team confidence that the tool is helpful.
Looking ahead
The team is planning to make the Reply tool available to everyone as an opt-out preference in the coming months. This has already happened at the Arabic, Czech, and Hungarian Wikipedias.
The next step is to resolve a technical challenge. Then, they will deploy the Reply tool first to the Wikipedias that participated in the study. After that, they will deploy it, in stages, to the other Wikipedias and all WMF-hosted wikis.
You can turn on "Discussion Tools" in Beta Features now. After you get the Reply tool, you can change your preferences at any time in Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-editing-discussion.
Good job!! Atsme 💬 📧 21:05, 16 June 2021 (UTC) 00:27, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
If Google can do it, why can't we?
Per this statement:
Can Google determine copyright ownership?
No. Google isn’t able to mediate rights ownership disputes. When we receive a complete and valid takedown notice, we remove the content as the law requires. When we receive a valid counter notification we forward it to the person who requested the removal. If there is still a dispute it’s up to the parties involved to resolve the issue in court.
WP has some qualified and unqualified but well-meaning volunteers who are making determinations as to what is or isn't a copyvio, and at times are removing legitimate images as copyvios or not fair use because they don't fully understand either, and that doesn't even scratch the surface for the many varieties of copyright/fair use laws in different countries. WP is an educational source which already protects us in many ways under fair use, so why are we not taking advantage of that in our project wikis like en.WP, de.WP, fr.WP, etc.? I can understand the repercussions that apply to Commons uploads but some of what is happening on en.WP is concerning. Why not make the uploader responsible, or is that already the case? Atsme 💬 📧 21:04, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
- Google is a search engine and by design and intent, its human curation is minimal. It links to web search query relevant websites with little regard to reliability or unreported copyright violations. If you go searching for unreliable garbage, Google will serve it up to you, within reason. Misplaced Pages has an explicit goal to create freely licensed text summarizing reliable sources, without copyright violations, curated by intelligent human beings, and made freely available to humanity in every significant human language. Both ventures are important and worthy, but their underlying principles are different. Attempting to apply Google's policies to Misplaced Pages just won't fly. Cullen Let's discuss it 04:25, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks, Cullen. I get your point, but I'll just add that, technically, Google is a tad more involved than just being a search engine: Google LLC is an American multinational technology company that specializes in Internet-related services and products, which include online advertising technologies, a search engine, cloud computing, software, and hardware. OTH, the WMF, is an NPO (charitable foundation) that consists of several WikiProjects, sister projects, and of course Commons, "a media repository of free-use images, sounds, other media, and JSON files". I think it's safe to classify en.WP as an educational resource of sorts, and as such, it opens all kinds of doors to fair use. Of course, copyright laws and all other legal decisions remain with WMF attorneys, not WP contributors, few of whom are copyright experts. It's always better for us to err on the side of caution - I get that - however, I am somewhat concerned that, far too often, some editors tend to disproportionately give more value to the interests of for-profit businesses over the educational/historic value of fair use inclusion where applicable & very much needed, such as a biography or BLP that has no images. I admittedly get a little frustrated when creating or editing articles of historic/educational significance when they lack coverage, which is customary for notable women throughout history. When I get lucky and find the perfect image for an article, upload it as fair use, and then discover a half-hour later that it was deleted per CSD, despite it being legal fair use, it can be an incentive killer. WP bureaucracy, policy and rules are typically the culprit, and IAR only works when there's consensus. It makes no sense to me for us to have criteria in WP:NFCCP policy that contradicts the very reason we opt for fair use in the first place.
WP's mission statement reads “to empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop educational content under a free license or in the public domain, and to disseminate it effectively and globally”. I get all the legal aspects and the why nots...but are we inadvertently empowering or engaging for-profit businesses to develop free or PD licensing if we are disportionately respecting the "original market role of the original copyrighted material", and not properly utilizing fair use? As a former professional in that industry, I was supportive of the protections but I have a much different perspective today that aligns more closely with education and history. I'm of the mind that some editors are simply working too hard at diluting our fair use options when the opposite should be true. Jimmy's an idea man, and I trust his judgment, so hopefully he can contribute some ideas to this discussion. Atsme 💬 📧 19:47, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks, Cullen. I get your point, but I'll just add that, technically, Google is a tad more involved than just being a search engine: Google LLC is an American multinational technology company that specializes in Internet-related services and products, which include online advertising technologies, a search engine, cloud computing, software, and hardware. OTH, the WMF, is an NPO (charitable foundation) that consists of several WikiProjects, sister projects, and of course Commons, "a media repository of free-use images, sounds, other media, and JSON files". I think it's safe to classify en.WP as an educational resource of sorts, and as such, it opens all kinds of doors to fair use. Of course, copyright laws and all other legal decisions remain with WMF attorneys, not WP contributors, few of whom are copyright experts. It's always better for us to err on the side of caution - I get that - however, I am somewhat concerned that, far too often, some editors tend to disproportionately give more value to the interests of for-profit businesses over the educational/historic value of fair use inclusion where applicable & very much needed, such as a biography or BLP that has no images. I admittedly get a little frustrated when creating or editing articles of historic/educational significance when they lack coverage, which is customary for notable women throughout history. When I get lucky and find the perfect image for an article, upload it as fair use, and then discover a half-hour later that it was deleted per CSD, despite it being legal fair use, it can be an incentive killer. WP bureaucracy, policy and rules are typically the culprit, and IAR only works when there's consensus. It makes no sense to me for us to have criteria in WP:NFCCP policy that contradicts the very reason we opt for fair use in the first place.
- I think we get the balance right. Fair use is important, and we both should and do rely on it in relevant cases. A canonical example would be the Pulitzer Prize winning photo we show in Elián González.
- But encouraging more use of fair use opens the door to a lot of nonsense, and closes the door to a strong incentive for people to create freely licensed content.
- I strongly support Misplaced Pages:NFCCP.
- But this is the sort of discussion that might be more informative all around if we were discussing specific examples.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:25, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
- I agree and hopefully will have something to share by tomorrow - stay tuned. Atsme 💬 📧 01:45, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
- With respect to the non-free content policy providing a "strong incentive for people to create freely licensed content", File:Olympia Dukakis still at Pride Parade, from film Olympia by Harry Marvomichalis.jpg is a good example. It was originally uploaded as non-free content but the copyright holder agreed to release it under a free license when its use as non-free content to was challenged. See this FFD entry for the discussion. -- Whpq (talk) 13:59, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
Enrique Tarrio article... propaganda photos allowable on Misplaced Pages?
Hi, Jimbo. At the Enrique Tarrio article, there's a discussion I started called "Propaganda image must go" regarding the lead image used by that article. I claim that image is clearly propaganda intended to show the subject in a positive way and therefore violates our NPOV content policy. Other editors, and I'll paraphrase here, have opposed my objection along the lines of "doesn't matter, this image is high resolution and shows his face" or the more challenging line of "that's just your interpretation that it's propaganda and therefore it stays" (not noticing that their view also entails interpretation).
This is not the first case where I've seen ultra high quality posed images uploaded by close connections to a subject in a way to clearly try to manage and influence their public reputation... usually to portray somebody disreputable in a positive light. I've brought this here directly because this is a very high level topic. How do you see NPOV and its applicability to images? If NPOV applies to images, how can it be enforced when editors seem very willing to ignore these violations. In particular, what's your opinion on this particular photo? Does or should it violate NPOV? Is this kind of image what we want to encourage on Misplaced Pages? Jason Quinn (talk) 14:13, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
Salute!
Hey Jimmy Wales, the founder of Misplaced Pages, homeland of the distorted information, anti-Turkish propaganda, asparagus information, dissemination aimed at humiliating Islam!
I just want to say that you are a fat fuck. If my dad would have the opportunity you have in his time, no doubt he would make ten times better than you done.
Your voice sounds like Toreno the fucking agent in GTA San Andreas, but you're fucking more annoying. Anyways, goodbye boomer! Vikipedi İslam'a diz çökecek (talk) 04:55, 20 June 2021 (UTC)