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Crime and Criminal Biography: Terrorism Unassessed

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Archives

• Talk:Ku Klux Klan/Archive1 - : –July 2005
• Talk:Ku Klux Klan/Archive2 - : July–Aug 2005
• Talk:Ku Klux Klan/Archive3 - : Aug–Sep 2005
• Talk:Ku Klux Klan/Archive4 - : Sep 2005–Feb2006
• Talk:Ku Klux Klan/Archive5 - : March 2006
• Talk:Ku Klux Klan/Archive6 - : June 2006

expand vocabulary section?

A few places in the article use Klan terminology such as "wizard" and "dragon" without explanation. I assume from the context, and from similar terms which are explained (like "grand wizard" and "imperial wizard"), that these refer to leadership positions of some sort, possibly from the Reconstruction era Klan only, but it's never explicitly explained. If the terms are used, they should be adequately defined. Mycroft7 07:36, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Required Edits

Hi, I don't know how to edit the article but the first note says: "According to the 1920 census, the population of white males 98 years and older was about 31 million". I assume it means 18 years, this needs correcting.

Had to edit the following paragraph because it is nonsensical.

"The Klan sought to control all of the political and social status of the freed slaves. Specifically, it attempted to curb black education, economic advancement, voting rights, and the right to bear arms. However, the Klan's focus was not limited to African Americans; Southern Republicans also became the target of vicious intimidation tactics. The violence achieved its purpose. For example, in the April 1868 Georgia gubernatorial election, Columbia County cast 1,222 votes for Republican Rufus Bullock, but in the November presidential election, the county cast only one vote for Republican candidate Ulysses Grant.

The second part of the paragraph was removed alltogether because it is an obvious non sequitur "Southern Republicans also became the target of vicious intimidation tactics. The violence achieved its purpose. For example, in the April 1868 Georgia gubernatorial election, Columbia County cast 1,222 votes for Republican Rufus Bullock, but in the November presidential election, the county cast only one vote for Republican candidate Ulysses Grant.

Reasons: 1. Choosing not to elect a public official is hardly a "vicious intimidation tactic." 2. "The violence achieved its purpose," makes absolutely no sense because choosing not to elect a public official is most definitely not an act of "violence." 3. The sentence, "Southern Republicans also became the target..." implies that there were repercussions to "Southern Republicans." Since the Republican candidate, Ulysses S. Grant was not chosen to be president of the USA by some little county in Georgia, AND he was not southern (Grant was born in Ohio, and would have never allowed anyone to call him a Southerner) there is no stated backlash for "Southern Republicans."

History Issues

I am not familiar with the KKK's history, but the section on its "creation" seemed odd to me. There was no real explanation for why a group of pranksters suddenly started assassinating people. In the article, this happens literally within a sentence. Either there is an extra link (perhaps in a changing of personel within the KKK at this point) or the organisation was altogether more sinister than the article makes out right from the start. Could someone more familiar with the material have a look at this? --Ajcee7 10:51, 25 July 2006 (UTC)ILOVEKODEY

A Terrorist Organization?

Does anyone know of any uses of the patriot act to stop this terrorist organization? I was horrified to see that the government allowed the klan to march in austin. If I saw klansmen walking toward me on the street, I would be terrified. Free speech does not include bodily threats and action supported by a violent murderous past. I'm sure that any organization that spoke out against the wealthy for example and advocated violence would be prohibited. Why then would an organization that has always used violence to repress groups of americans be allowed to demonstrate for hate?

I just noticed that the most recent article states that the KKK is a terrorist organization. While I do not disagree with this, I was wondering if it could be clarified as to whether the government recognizes it as a terrorist organization or not? --PaladinWriter 12:15, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

The Grand Jury found it to be so. Details in Trelease book et al. Skywriter 12:17, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

This seems to have been edited out of the lead. Why? Sam 00:25, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The reference to terrorism was removed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ku_Klux_Klan&oldid=57056313 by (cur) (last) 20:42, June 5, 2006 JayW m (rm pov: we don't even flat out say Al-Qaeda's terrorist; see WP:WTA)

and then in a separate edit, the following was deleted (and imo should be re-instated): . It quickly adopted violent methods. For example, during Reconstruction, Klansmen killed more than 150 African Americans in a single county in Florida. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ku_Klux_Klan&diff=56994630&oldid=56985145 During the above edit, the following was reinstated (after it had been, apparently, accidentally deleted). . It quickly adopted violent methods, and was involved in a wave of 1,300 murders of Republican voters in 1868. A rapid reaction set in, with the Klan's leadership disowning it, and Southern elites seeing the Klan as an excuse for federal troops to continue their activities in the South. The organization was in decline from 1868 to 1870, and was destroyed in the early 1870s by President Ulysses S. Grant's vigorous action under the Civil Rights Act of 1871 (also known as the Ku Klux Klan Act).

I realize the above phrasing might cover the example of the Florida county but the Florida example has two-fold advantage: 1. it is sourced, and 2. it gives an idea of the scale of terror in just one county. What do you think? Skywriter 03:42, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I would reinstate. If saying the Klan is a terrorist organization is a problem because of the connotations that word has taken on, it can be said that the Klan advocated the use of terror against blacks and others. Sam 04:12, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

'Terrorist' is a POV term that will not be used; for example, if Misplaced Pages was writting from a JPOV, the opening paragraph on the US military would contain the word 'terrorist' (several times - it might beat out 'the' as most used word, in fact). WP:WTA specifically disclaims its use, and the issue has been debated many times. I don't care what else you decide to use, as long as it's neutral and sourced, but we won't be using the T word. </verbiage> JayW 19:23, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, the phrasing as it was used implied all modern KKK organizations advocate using terror against their 'Untermensch' - such an assertion wouldn't be neutral, however, since many modern Klu Klux Klans claim to condemn violence. JayW 19:29, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The fact that the word terrorist linked to Lynching in the United States made it clear why it was being called such, but I suppose the picture of the burning cross makes the point as well. You might want to raise the point at its entry on the today's featured article though, since that states it even more explicitly. Moulder 19:43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

My first comment is addressed to JayW: I'm afraid you do not get to decide if the word is used here. Whatever wording is decided upon here by consensus is the wording we will use. The word "terrorist" is not POV and can be used at Misplaced Pages.

That said, the use of the term "terrorist" is not accurate in this case and probably shouldn't be used here (to my knowledge, nowhere in the article is the term used, least of all with a reference). Instead of that word, I would support using the phrase "advocated the use of terror against blacks and others." This phrase could be used like this: "Ku Klux Klan is the name of a number of past and present fraternal organizations in the United States that have advocated white supremacy and anti-Semitism; and in the past century, anti-Catholicism, and nativism. These organizations have often promoted the use of terror against blacks and others." Any comments?--Alabamaboy 19:47, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The fact is this, and I did put this in an earlier version, and it was deleted: the Grand Jury in 1869-70 found the Klan to be a terrorist organization and issued indictments against hundreds of members. That began its first decline. Trelease documents this.

The following sentence is imprecise in that it confers the idea that the Klan was into equal opportunity thuggery and bullying. It was not. Eighty percent of the people it terrorized in all years of its existence are and were black. That the lead defines the KKK as fraternal is akin to calling the Vandals good ole boys. Ku Klux Klan is the name of a number of past and present fraternal organizations in the United States that have advocated white supremacy and anti-Semitism; and in the past century, anti-Catholicism, and nativism. Skywriter 00:34, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, there was a supposedly cited reference to terrorism in the extremely bloated lead I reverted (which is where the first image was removed by mistake, thanks for putting it back). That said, I think it's safe to say terrorism carried different connotations in those days. Your version works for me, as I do agree about the use of the word. Moulder 19:52, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Any other supporters? I should also thank Sam for first mentioning this possible consensus language.--Alabamaboy 19:54, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Support to Alabamaboy on all counts. My biggest worry with this sentance as JayW has it is is that it makes the Klan sound like a friendly old frat, and thus itself constitutes clear POV. I find JayW's language much harder to support on a POV/NPOV basis that any of the alternatives. Sam 19:54, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

That was also a concern of mine with the current language.--Alabamaboy 20:00, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I protest that this article which distorts the history of the KKK will be displayed as a featured article that downplays the terroristic murders of thousands of black people over a period of 100 years and romanticizes their activities. It does not even include the fact that the Klan murdered four school girls on a Sunday morning in Birmingham Alabama, and gives only passing notice, near the bottom of the article, to the recent trial and conviction for murder of Klansmen who killed civil rights workers. This article discriminates against black people.

I can not say enough how sick to my stomach this article makes me, and I fear it will make many readers sick too.

Point of information: when the term "terroristic" was added to the KKK article, it was quickly removed, repeatedly. Not only was it removed but also citations to examples of Klan terror were removed. And yet, this article conflicts with articles on lynching in the United States and African American History, which are more honest in that they hold the Klan responsible for the murders of thousands. If this is not terror, what is?

When I pointed out that this article directly conflicts with the article on African American History, and placed a tag to that effect because the article on African American History cites sources showing the Klan's history of terrorism, the tag was removed. Instead of terrorism, the user put "fraternal" organization.

This is a sick and disgusting distortion of history, horrifying to families who mourn kin murdered by the Klan. Romanticizing their actions in the same dishonest way as the film The Birth of a Nation dishonors the memory of the people they murdered. The Klan was at all times eagerly into public humiliation in these murders of black people, and this article ignores completely that Klan activities, in many cases, were led by "leading citizens" in areas where they terrorized innocents.

• The article ignores the Klan murder of a black serviceman, which the history encyclopedia by the State of Georgia attributed to the Klan.

"and Lemuel Penn, an African American military officer from Washington, D.C., who was murdered while driving through Madison County."

I added the following two books to the reference section of the Klan article and they were deleted. Why is that? I re-added both, and the Newton book was deleted, along with copy discussing its content. I expect that the Trelease history of the Klan will be removed too, again, before long.

This was the text of the reference that was removed.

• Newton, Michael, The Invisible Empire: The Ku Klux Klan in Florida (University Press of Florida: 2001) ISBN: 0813021200. "The Ku Klux Klan was at least as violent in Florida as anywhere else in the nation, and the sheriffs, juries, judges, politicians, press, and citizens, for the most part, as culpable in its murderous history."

(here's more information about this book: http://www.upf.com/reviews.asp?id=NEWTOF01&name=The%20Invisible%20Empire]

I added the following text to the article and it has been removed several times, along with the citation to Newton's history of the Klan, which is still deleted. Newton's is a valid history published by a university press. Its repeated deletion is another in a long string of POV changes to this article whitewashing and romanticizing Klan history.

e.g. of POV deletion: ... It quickly adopted violent methods. For example, during Reconstruction, Klansmen killed more than 150 African Americans in a single county in Florida.

Trelease is widely respected among historians and widely quoted, and yet, the following reference was also removed several times. It is another POV deletion: '* Trelease, Allen W. White Terror: The Ku Klux Klan Conspiracy and Southern Reconstruction, (Louisiana State University Press: 1995). First published in 1971 and based on massive research in primary sources, this is the most comprehensive treatment of the Klan and its relationship to post-Civil War Reconstruction. Includes narrative research on other night-riding groups. Details close link between Klan and late 19th century and early 20th century Democratic Party.

Finally, I included the fact that the Klan was determined to be a terrorist organization by the Grand Jury that led to hundreds of indictments in 1870. This information is in the book by Trelease. Skywriter 21:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to see a fair bit of that information back in, but I have to say, this has been a pretty actively edited article and you shouldn't assume bad faith of other editors. For example, the removal of the conflict tag was done by someone who commented in their removal of it that the discussion on the use of terrorism would be held on this page on the consensus reflected in the final - and he is someone who has advocated using the term. On the other hand, the person removing the terrorism statement is someone altogether different who has been somewhat hostile to explaining himself and given an ultimatum to all of us that we aren't using that word. But, of course, it's hard to find a word that better describes an organization that wages widespread campaigns to murder and do violence to people in order to invoke terror. Sam 21:16, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I can see where you're coming from on the deletions, and I agree with you insofar as that information is significant enough for inclusion; the reason I removed it was that, as stated in the following section, the lead of a Misplaced Pages article (see WP:LEAD) is not necessarily the place to include all of it. Moulder 22:57, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Then it should have been moved, not deleted. The action by whomever changed "terrorist" to "fraternal" is over the top. The deletion of references from the Reference section suggests cover-up POV. (It would take too long to figure out who did that, and at this point who did it is immaterial.)

I contest this: "After World War II, the Klan's victims began to fight back."

Black people fought back in every way possible from the beginning. Ida Barnett fought back. W.E.B. Du Bois fought back in the Crisis. A. Phillip Randolph fought back, and the Klan tried to bully him too. People don't forget. Even now. There should be a section that reflects continuous fight back against the murderous Klan over the entire period of its history. And that even in modern times, victims are forced to accept what passes for justice.

Instead of using photos that serve only to humiliate blacks, this article could show that people did fight back right from the beginning. That Thomas Nast cartoon is out of copyright and Misplaced Pages uses lots of his cartoons, including on the Nast page.

Eighty percent of more than 4,000 victims of lynchings carried out in the name of the Klan were black, yet this article names four victims, three of them white. No one denies the pain and injustice committed against the white victims, especially civil rights workers. But there does seem to be POV insensitivity as to proportionality and what this article chooses to emphasize.

For example, in the inclusion of the word even in the following sentence, as though doing this to a white woman is worse than lynching black women, a fact that occurred far more often than Klan attacks on white women: One local Klan group even "kidnapped a white divorcee and stripped her to her waist, tied her to a tree, and whipped her savagely." In other words, the emphasis seems wrongly placed. A little more exploration of the children murdered by Klansmen on Birmingham Sunday would help balance the article. I do not assume bad faith of the editors who obviously worked hard on this article but there is an apparent viewpoint problem as the history continues to be viewed from white eyes, leaving out the viewpoints of blacks. I have softened my earlier remarks. Skywriter 00:16, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

It's a scary article to put on the front page; I hope you've deleted that "even" - I only saw this article when I saw it was going on the front page, and the first thing that jumped out at me was the deletion of the word "terrorist". Sam 00:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

See my comment below about the word "even." It was taken out of an appropriate context. --Alabamaboy 01:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

You shouldn't make assumptions that this article has been only "viewed from white eyes." The article is rather clear about all that the different KKKs have done. The problem is that, popular beliefs to the contrary, there were 3 distinct KKKs, with the third reincarnation of the Klan being scattered groups that did such acts as the 16th Street baptist Church bombing. Because this article has to cover such a massive ammount of info and history of these 3 distinct knlans, it can't give massive details about every atrocity the KKK did (that's what the individual articles on those atrocities are for). Of course people fought back against the Klan throughout the years. However, the fight against the Klan took a major step forward after WWII. In addition, you read too much into the word "even." That word came after the sentence "In Troy, Alabama, the Klan reported to parents the names of teenagers they caught making out in cars." As the person who wrote those words, I used "even" to contrast the step up from harrassing teenagers to kidnapping a woman, not (as you put it) to say that a white woman was more important than a black woman.

I agree with you that the KKK is a terrorist organization. The problem with that term is that it has modern connotations which don't totally fit what the KKK was. That's why we're calling it a hate group that practiced terror. As for the info you want to add, please go for it after first seeking consensus on this talk page. This article has been through a lot of tough discussions among a number of editors. In addition, some of the info you are adding in is incorrect or out of place. For example, the source for your addition on lynching (seen here) is not appropriate. From the source you added this to the article: "The murders of 4,743 people who were lynched in the United States between 1882 and 1968 were not often publicized." That is correct (if an undercounting of lynching in the country during those years) but the fact is that the first KKK went out of existence in the 1870s and the second KKK didn't form until 1915. As a result, the Klan couldn't have been involved in 1000s of those lynchings. That, however, is what your addition seemed to imply. So while that source and information is appropriate for the article on lynching, it doesn't work here.

As I said, please raise any issues you have with the article on this talk page. I'd love to keep improving the article and hope you will help us with this. Best, --Alabamaboy 00:59, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

One more thing: You are totally correct that there should be a complete section on how people fought back against the Klan. The section could include info already in the article while also bringing in Ida Barnett, W.E.B. Du Bois, and others. Is there consensus among the editors here to do this? If so, why don't we add it right before the "The Ku Klux Klan today" section. The section could cover how people fought back against all three klans.--Alabamaboy 01:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

After looking at the article some more, I can also see how this information on fighting back should be distributed throughout the article. So any thoughts on which it should be, in its own section or throughout the article. I lean more toward "throughout" at this point because the fighting back against the Klan explains why the first and second klans disbanded.--Alabamaboy 01:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

As the person responsible for changing the word in the lead from "fraternal" to "terrorist", I disagree that this is a POV issue. Unless you dispute that there is such a thing as a "terrorist organization", I don't think you can come up with a better example than the KKK, which has, in all three of its incarnations used fear and intimidation through violence to achieve political ends. The word fraternal, however, could be used to describe a much wider variety of group, such as the Cub Scouts. In my opinion, good writing uses narrow terms to provide optimal description, and general, albiet not unanimous consensus, is that the KKK is a terrorist organization, as witnessed by the various citations above. My favorite use of this descriptor for the Klan comes from the 1959 movie, "FBI Story", where Jimmy Stewart uses the term "terrorists" in reference to the KKK. I don't think this is POV at all. Its a perfectly reasonable, and historicaly accurate, description. --Dwcsite 05:16, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I just wanted to say. Why the US didn't kill that dirty asses klan for nowadays? Thay are the biggest "pee" of nation. To my mind everyone of that dogs must sit or in jail or on electric chair. I hate them. And of course they are the terroristic organization. Please tell, if NORMAL human can kill anyone because of they are catholic, jewish, or because of the melanin number in humans skin? They fighting for NORMAL people degradation. That Idiots are cowards. I wish them all death, and burning in hell forever.

The grammar and spelling made it extremely hard to tell but I think your ideas are almost as bad as some of the klan's. You're right however they are laughably stupid and overly paranoid cowards.

Recent additions to lead

The lead of an article is generally one to three paragraphs, depending on article length. The current state of the lead was ridiculously long and redundant, with the second and third paragraphs describing the same thing entirely. I've reverted to a previous version, on which the "today's featured article" blurb was based, and retained both terrorist and fraternal since they're both used in that. Moulder 06:11, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

mystery wave of 1,300 murders of Republican voters in 1868.

The statement is "sourced" on an anonymous website that does not list any sources. LYNCHING CENTURY 1.htm It's not reliable--it has lots of exact names and dates but is padded with mystery cases:

• 500 unidentified black people murdered (report) Texas July 1 1868
• 150 unidentified black people murdered (report) Louisiana August 1868
• 200 unidentified black people murdered St. Landry Par. Louisiana October 1868
• 162 unidentified black people murdered Bossier Par Louisiana October 1868
• 300 unidentified black people lynched Vicksburg Mississippi December 1874
• 100 unidentified black Republicans murdered Colfax Louisiana April 1873 (The standard history (Foner 1968 p 437) says the bloodiest massacre in all of Reconstruction was at Colfax in 1873 with 50 killed.) Furthermore the source rarely mentions Republican, so some editor added that information with no source whatever. Rjensen 11:16, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Article is good PR for KKK

This article continues to be told from the Klan perspective and with little sympathy for those whom the Klan murdered and terrorized. The names of people murdered by the Klan are left out yet we are treated to the rosy view that the Klan "was at first a humorous social club centering on practical jokes and hazing rituals." Oh yeah, the guy who wrote that was NOT a historian and he liked the Klan he wrote about it (the first Klan.) Jensen proudly admits that in the reference section.

This article refers to Stanley Horn as a historian yet he was not a historian. The URL that Jensen so kindly provided tells us what he was: "Horn, Stanley F. (1889-1980) Full Text PDF Transcription Oral history interview conducted 1976 by Charles W. Crawford. Final transcript. Horn, editor and co-owner of the trade publication Southern Lumberman, discusses his career as a reporter for the forest products industry, trade associations, tree farming, reforestation, log transportation, and sawmill equipment in Tennessee; twentieth century. Produced by the Forest History Society. vii + 184 leaves."

I'm all for leaving the lie. When researchers track down what's in this article, the bias and lack of factual basis will be clear.

Professor Jensen further has insisted for months (and reverted any attempt to get rid of this) that the following be included in the reference section describing Horn's book. Horn, Stanley F. Invisible Empire: The Story of the Ku Klux Klan, 1866-1871, Patterson Smith Publishing Corporation: Montclair, NJ, 1939. Horn, born in 1889, was a Southern historian who was sympathetic to the first Klan, which, in a 1976 oral interview , he was careful to distinguish from the later "spurious Ku Klux organization which was in ill-repute—and, of course, had no connection whatsoever with the Klan of Reconstruction days."

Oh that's instructive because Horn only wrote about the first Klan. Thirteen citations from a journalist who liked the Klan and the most prominent historian (David Chalmers) writing about the Klan is cited nowhere in this article, not even in the references.

What Jensen insists on being included suggests that the first Klan was somehow less violent that than the 2nd and 3rd Klans. Horn's book is genuinely sympathetic to the Klan of Reconstruction days, and reading this 1939 book we get a warm, fuzzy view of the KKK. This despite the fact that there have been much better and more recent histories, written by historians. I guess if you are going to rely that heavily on the pro-Klan viewpoint, it is useful to include the writer's apology. Anyone critical of the Klan, particularly families of its victims, might say the Klan owes Misplaced Pages payments for this fantastic free publicity.

I have previously added Hooded Americans: The History of the Ku Klux Klan by David Chambers to the reference section and it has been repeatedly deleted.

Here's what historian John Hope Franklin said about Hooded Americans-- "Hooded Americanism is the only work that treats Ku Kluxism for the entire period of its existence. ... It is the authoritative work on the period. Hooded Americanism is exhaustive in its rich detail and its use of primary materials to paint the picture of a century of terror. It is comprehensive, since it treats the entire period, and enjoys the perspective that the long view provides. It is timely, since it emphasizes the undeniable persistence of terrorism in American life."

Here's what the American Historical Review said of Hooded Americans --"Chalmers has steeped himself in the details of KKK organization, personalities, and intrigue, and particularly their relation to the entire nation. Chalmers has not only read widely; he has pondered the meaning and destiny of the Klan."

Chalmers is the University of Florida's Distinguished Alumni Professor, and has written widely on American social history. Hooded Americanism first appeared in 1965, and the third edition was originally published in 1981. The Duke edition contains a revised set of illustrations."

So, yeah, if I had a pro-Klan viewpoint I was trying to push, I'd keep on deleting all references to the Chalmers history, and I'd keep pumping up Stanley Horn.

Professor Jensen has insisted for months that the following be included in external links, yet if you bother to read "the long interview" referred to most of it is not about the Klan at all. Why is the following linked in this article several times? A long interview with Stanley F. Horn, author of Invisible Empire: The Story of the Ku Klux Klan, 1866-1871. Why is it here? Oh, I know the answer-- because this is a pro-Klan article that ignores Klan victims.

For example, I added the following, and it was reverted. I wonder why? The article continues to ignore the Klan murder of a black serviceman, which the history encyclopedia by the State of Georgia attributed to the Klan. "and Lemuel Penn, an African American military officer from Washington, D.C., who was murdered while driving through Madison County."

I added the following book to the reference section of the Klan article and it was removed several times. I re-added it, and Newton's book on the Florida Klan was deleted, along with copy discussing its content. It is a detailed book that has received wide praise I wonder why it was deleted from this Misplaced Pages article? Maybe because the folks who keep it deleted don't want crticiism of the Klan included?

This was the text of the reference that was removed.

• Newton, Michael, The Invisible Empire: The Ku Klux Klan in Florida (University Press of Florida: 2001) ISBN: 0813021200. "The Ku Klux Klan was at least as violent in Florida as anywhere else in the nation, and the sheriffs, juries, judges, politicians, press, and citizens, for the most part, as culpable in its murderous history."

(here's more information about this book: http://www.upf.com/reviews.asp?id=NEWTOF01&name=The%20Invisible%20Empire]

The article has no area that discusses Klan terrorism. I wonder why. Oh, I know-- it is because books written about Klan terrorism have been excluded from this article. Klan history of terrorism has been replaced with "fraternal organization" and the emphasis in the lead to everything but the murders of blacks and civil rights workers.

Just remember that "nativism" nor "anti-catholicism" resulted in massive numbers of murders.

Oh, and by the way, as if it matters, the footnotes are often wrong in terms of what they point to.

Skywriter 21:14, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

There have been efforts to balance this article but facts and references have been removed. (Jensen is hardly the only one doing this.) Balancing this article is an uphill battle.

Here's where the accurate description of Horn's book appears, which was reverted by Jensen and replaced with his own version sympathetic to Horn and the first Klan. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ku_Klux_Klan&diff=54052909&oldid=53591320 Horn, Stanley F. Invisible Empire: The Story of the Ku Klux Klan, 1866-1871, (Patterson Smith Publishing Corporation: 1939). Sympathetic to the Klan during Reconstruction period.

The following is a good example of terorism that was removed, along with the reference. For example, during Reconstruction, Klansmen killed more than 150 African Americans in a single county in Florida. Skywriter 21:34, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

As was mentioned before on this talk page, please raise specific issues you wish to change or add to the article on this talk page instead of merely ranting about the article. Because this article is so contentious, major changes to it must first gain consensus here. This isn't hard to do. Merely state a section of the article that is incorrect or that you want to add to, give the sample rewrite or addition, and provide the reference for what you wish to change or add. Newton's book would be a great addition to the article but to be useful it must be referenced to specific items in the book. For example, I'd be happy to add this item of yours to the article: "For example, during Reconstruction, Klansmen killed more than 150 African Americans in a single county in Florida." The problem is that you didn't give the page number within Newton's book which refers to that fact. Do so and we'll add it in. As I also previously mentioned, I'd support adding in more info on other victims of the KKK.

The other reason your edits were reverted is that you made some POV edits and/or wrong edits (see my earlier comment about lynchings, which was factually correct but wrongly implied the kkk did all lynchings, when the kkk didn't exist for part of the time your reference refered to). As for Jensen's references, it is common historical process to use even biased historical accounts if they contain useful information. To Jensen's credit, his references state exactly when a reference is biased to the Klan, so readers can know that information. In addition, the KKK was formed in 1866 as the social club you slam--this is from a mainstream book by Wyn Craig Wade called The Fiery Cross: The Ku Klux Klan in America published by Simon and Schuster in 1987. Just because this social club quickly became one of the worst organizations in American history doesn't mean we should ignore how it was formed. That would be like ignoring that Al-Qaeda initially formed to fight the invasion of Afganistan by the Soviet Union. Al-Qaeda later morphed into the terrorist organization it is today.

If you feel like raising specific issues on this talk page, please do. The other editors do not respond well to ranting but if you care to join in and help improve the article, we'd love to work with you on it. Best,--Alabamaboy 23:45, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I would have added to this earlier but have been working too many hours. I worked on it some tonight, trying to balance the bias. It still has many problems, not the least of which is the too lengthy section on the film Birth of a Nation, which has its own Wiki article, and does not need such length here. Leo Frank also has his own lengthy article. As stated earlier, Ida Barnett, Paul Robeson, and W.E.B. Du Bois were prominent opponents of the Klan and fought hard against the many lynchings, which I have shown by linking to articles tonight, has long been a major Klan strategy to bully and intimidate. Before tonight, the link between Klan members as convicted criminals (killers) had not been made.

Articles on serial killers like Geoffrey Dahmer give more attention to victims than this article does, and that is its major weakness. I tried to address some of that tonight. It is quite something that the Reconstruction Klan (federal) hearings were not directly referenced until I added them tonight. There's a number of books written on them, and they are loaded with examples, eyewitness accounts and other primary sources. As I said earlier, Horn is one source but he is also a pro-Klan source on only the first Klan. This article relies heavily on Horn, and that really does not do justice to the subject. What is the evidence of that? The voluminous KKK hearings in Congress during Reconstruction is front and center in most articles on the Reconstruction Klan but was nowhere to be seen here. Why is that? Reliance on Horn who glosses over the KKK hearings and the laws passed in reaction to that testimony. Simply put, Horn wrote the nicest possible book about the Klan, and it was published in 1939 when Jim Crow was legal.

Many people fought back against the Klan, and that is not reflected in this article. I added some of that tonight but it still is a partisan article, not ready for prime time, as it were. I did the best I could. I wish other people were interested in the Klan's criminal history and had added it earlier. That's what I see as so unfair about this article. Cheers. Skywriter 10:55, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm fully agree that this article is good PR for KKKs.I was shoked when i read it. Who wrote that all? KKK- dirty criminal organization that was created by dirty maniac. They are the biggest "pee" of nation, which must all sit on electric chairs to my mind. I cannot see that stupid article, it sucks me. Wiki must delit this "pee" or write the TRUTH. About the people that that dirty asses killed.

Skywriter's proposed changes (seeking comment from all editors)

I have reverted Skywriters recent changes. While many of them appear to be very good, Skywriter has ignored numerous requests to first raise changes on this talk page. As everyone here know, there are numerous editors who have worked on this article in the past and, as has been said, the article went through a lengthy mediation to reach the stage it is currently in. Because of this mediation and previous work, Skywriter has been asked to discuss changes on the talk page first. As I've also said before, I'm sure the editors here would agree with many of Skywriter's changes and that, by first achieving consensus on his/her edits, those edits and the article itself would both become stronger. However, b/c Skywriter refuses to answer questions that have been raised here about some of his/her edits or to take part in the discussion, I have protected the article until the changes here are discussed.

That said, Skywriter's edits are worth considering. What follows are the changes Skywriter proposed (found here in this history diff). If the editors here can reach consensus on these changes, we will add them in.

1) Adding this phrase to the lead, ", and in recent years, some of its members have been convicted of murder and manslaughter in the deaths of Civil Rights workers and children."

favor, but the words "some of its" are unnecessary; it will have the same meaning without them. (note, I am not a regular editor, so weight my comments as you see fit). Sam 14:58, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

2) Deleted the Greek spelling of the KKK's name. I'm not sure why this was done.

needs explanation; no comment at this time. Sam 14:58, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

3) Added info on "Launching a "reign of terror" against Republican leaders black and white. Those assassinated during the campaign included Arkansas Congressman James M. Hinds, three members of the South Carolina legislature, and several men who had served in constitutional conventions." (Foner,Reconstruction: America's Unfinished Revolution, 1863–1877 p. 342). Personally, I think this info on the assassinations should be added. Any other thoughts?

Seems well sourced; if there are no objections to underlying facts, I would favor. Sam 14:58, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

4) Added the unsourced comment "The Klan had no objections to whites being armed." While this is probably true, the fact that there isn't a reference troubles me.

I worry about the way it is phrased; having "no objections" is different from advocating and much less relevant. So I would not favorSam 14:58, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

5) Added the statement, "However, a federal grand jury in 1869 determined that the Klan was a "terrorist organization." Hundreds of indictments for crimes of violence and terrorism were issued. Klan members were prosecuted, and many fled jurisdiction, particularly in South Carolina. (Trelease, Allen W., White Terror: The Ku Klux Klan Conspiracy and Southern Reconstruction)" The issue of using the term terrorist was previously discussed on this page and consensus reached not to use it. But do people have a problem with this usage in the body of the article?

I do not, so favor. Sam 14:58, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

6) Added these two paragraphs: ""One should not think of the Klan, even in its hey day, as possessing a well-organized structure or clearly defined regional leadership. Acts of violence were generally committed by local groups on their own initiative. But the unity of purpose and common tactics of these local organizations makes it possible to generalize about their goals and impact, and the challenge they posed to the survival of Reconstruction. In effect, the Klan was a military force serving the interests of the Democratic party, the planter class, and all those who desired the restoration of white supremacy. Its purposes were political, but political in the broadest sense, for it sought to affect power relations, both public and private, throughout Southern Society. It aimed to reverse the interlocking changes sweeping over the South during Reconstruction: to destroy the Republican party's infrastructure, undermine the Reconstruction state, reestablish control of the black labor force, and restore racial subordination in every aspect of Southern life." and "On pages 425-444 and 454-459, Foner quotes from testimony at the federal KKK Hearings in Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina, North Carolina and Georgia, and other primary sources to describe widespread terror and extraordinary brutality, including rape and murder by Klan members that led to the passage of the Ku Klux Klan Act. Foner wrote also (p. 435) of the resistance to Klan terror. "Occasionally, organized groups successfully confronted the Klan. White Union Army veterans in mountainous Blount County, Alabama, organized "the anti-Ku Klux," which put an end to violence by threatening Klansmen with reprisals unless they stopped whipping Unionists and burning black churches and schools. Armed blacks patrolled the streets of Bennettsville, South Carolina, to prevent Klan assaults."" While these paragraphs need to be rewritten to fit Wiki style, I'd support adding much of this info (I particularly love the Blount County item, which I knew from growing up in Alabama). Any comments?

The first section, through the close of the quotes, doesn't have support, and would be interesting to add with support, so favor, if rewritten and substantiated'. I think the idea that the Klan was a military force serving interests of particular groups has potential POV problems that could be alleviated with some careful wording; can support be found for the idea that the Klan actively coordinated military training and exercises for its its members, and that the Klan regularly served interests of particular classes, parties and groups. The Foner reference strikes me as worthy of inclusion, so favor that, but the final section in quotes needs support, so not favor at this time. Sam 14:58, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

7) Added "But "the bloodiest single instance of racial carnage in the Reconstruction era was the Colfax massacre which began when black citizens fought back against the Klan and its allies in the White league. "Louisiana black teacher and legislator John G. Lewis later remarked. "They attempted (armed self-defense) in Colfax. The result was that on Easter Sunday of 1873, when the sun went down that night, it went down on the corpses of two hundred and eighty negroes." (Foner, Reconstruction: America's Unfinished Revolution, 1863–1877, p. 437) and KKK Hearings, 46th Congress, 2d Session, Senate Report 693, and Joe G. Taylor, Louisiana Reconstructed, 1863-1877 (Baton Rouge, 1974), p. 268-70.)

favor.Sam 14:58, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

8) Added "During Reconstruction, Klansmen killed more than 150 African Americans in a single county in Florida, and hundreds more in other counties.(The Invisible Empire: The Ku Klux Klan in Florida, by Michael Newton) (pp.1-30) Newton quotes from the Testimony Taken by the Joint Select Committee to Enquire into the Condition of Affairs in the Late Insurrectionary States. Vol. 13. Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1872). Among historians of the Klan, this volume is also known as "The KKK testimony."

Any questioning of source or context? If no substantive dispute, I'd favor.Sam 15:09, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

9) Took out "Horn, a very sympathetic Southern historian of the first Klan, was careful in an oral interview to distinguish it from the later "spurious Ku Klux organization which was in ill-repute—and, of course, had no connection whatsoever with the Klan of Reconstruction days." , retrieved August 11, 2005."

That "very" needs to be taken out, and a mere characterizion of Horn as sympathetic to the Klan without a footnote or the like where he admits it strikes me a potential POV.Sam 15:09, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

10) Added "Despite the noble rhetoric, Klan members lynched and burned to death veterans returning from World War I. American historian John Hope Franklin wrote in his book Race and History: Selected Essays 1938-1988 (p. 145) that "Few Negro Americans could have anticipated the wholeseale rejection they experienced at the conclusion of World War I. Returning Negro soldiers were lynched by hanging and burning, even while still in their military uniforms. The Klan warned Negroes that they must respect the rights of the white race "in whose country they are permitted to reside."" If this section is kept, the POV statement "despite this noble rhetoric" would need to be removed.

I agree on removing the POV element of the statement, but putting the discussion in context makes sense. There should be further footnotes specifically tracing the later quote to its speaker, no just to the secondary source, and a footnote to an example of a hanging in military uniform would make it much stronger. Sam 15:09, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

11)Added "The Ragen Colts, an Irish street gang in Chicago, directed its anger at the Ku Klux Klan for its anti-Catholicism. In 1921, "In September, 3,000 people from the stockyards district (of Chicago) watched as the Colts hanged in effigy "a white-sheeted Klansman."" (Tuttle, p. 257)" While this is a nice item to note, is it worth adding to an already long article?

Could it work in footnotes? I found it interesting. Sam 15:09, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

12) Deleted this paragraph: "A new focus of the postwar Klan was to resist the civil rights movement of the 1960s. In 1963, two Klan members carried out the bombing of a church in Alabama that had been used as a meeting place for civil rights organizers. Four young girls were killed, and outrage over the bombing helped to build momentum for the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. The Klan used threats, intimidation, and murder to disrupt voter registration drives in the South, and to prevent registered black voters from voting. The Klan was involved in the 1964 murders of civil rights workers Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner in Mississippi, and also murdered Viola Liuzzo, a Southern-raised white mother of five who was visiting the South from her home in Detroit to attend a civil rights march." and replaced it with " The criminal history of Klan members has been better documented in recent years than previously, and its members have been sent to prison for murder and manslaughter in the deaths of civil rights workers. Here is an incomplete list." and a list of murders done by the KKK. Personally, I don't have a problem with inserting the list or the expansion of the Civil Rights period Klan activities (found here in this history diff) as long as more detailed references are provided.

What was the problem with this section? It would be good to get an explanation. Sam 15:09, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure. I believe that Skywriter deleted the original section b/c his/her new edits expanded that section. If that was the case, it is understandable that the old section was replaced by the new, expanded section, as long as no relevant info was last.--Alabamaboy 15:57, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

13) Finally, in the references section Skywriter enters info on some new references, which is fine with me and, since these are legit references, I'm assuming no one else has any objection to.

That sums up the overall changes Skywriter proposes to this article. As I've said, I am irritated that Skywriter has ignored repeated requests to discuss these changes on this talk page. That said, many of his edits appear to be good. I hope other editors will comment on these proposed edits in the coming days. If any particular edit is not disputed, I say we add it in. If any edit is disputed, please explicitly state why you believe the edit is wrong or incorrect and also, if possible, propose alternate language you could support. Best, --Alabamaboy 13:38, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Since no one appears to have an issue with these edits, I've worked them into the article. I appreciate Skywriter's work on this and thank him for helping to expand the article. Best, --Alabamaboy 15:11, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

KKK Army

Long ago, I have seen the KKK and the ADL on The Jerry Springer Show. The Klan personnel were dressed in what appeared to be "Class A's" of some kind of military uniforms. One was a Captain, two were lieutenants, all looking like the KKK had become a KKK Militia Force or some kind of Private Army of the KKK. Of course, Jerry Springer's TV show was and still is known for the brawls that take place on that show. Martial Law 00:46, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Their uniforms were jet black in color, similar to what Special Forces, U.S. use, only that they were also similar to the Class A's Which is the military Dress Uniform in the U.S. Military. Martial Law 00:50, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Can this be stated in the article:"Militia Some Ku Klux Klan groups have recently formed themselves into militia units." ? I have seen these "soldiers" on the Jerry Springer Show long ago. They were pitted against some ADL personnel, and his show is well known for the fights and brawls. Martial Law 05:53, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

KKK article on front page and editorial dispute

I didn't know that this article was slated to be on the front page (to be honest, I'd missed the notice at the top of this page). Obviously this article will be hit hard by vandalism in the next 24 hours. If everyone is ok with it, we'll take up where we left off with the editorial dicussions on this article when it is no longer linked to the main page. Best,--Alabamaboy 01:07, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I started watching it the second I saw it on the front page. Based on the last few minutes, vandalism already is a big problem! The Ungovernable Force 01:08, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I know. I wish this article hadn't been linked to from the front page--especially when there was an editorial dispute going on here. --Alabamaboy 01:11, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Not a vandal, but I did correct one item after seeing this on the front page. It listed the current KKK as being headquartered in Harrison, AR. The truth is that the man, Thom Robb, lives in a tiny little town outside of Harrison named Zinc. I lived in Harrison for 20 years, and there is NO kkk activity.--69.152.64.166 02:24, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

And someone had already reverted it! Even though I live there!--69.152.64.166 02:26, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Also as a friendly warning, as someone who did a little supplementary work on The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and nominated it for the Main Page once it was promoted, brace yourselves for angry messages here (and on the Main Page talk page) denouncing Misplaced Pages for promoting the Klan (not understanding that featuring an article about something doesn't mean we're endorsing the subject, just recognizing good work on an article). (see here and scroll down. Some people actually got blocked over those, uh, discussions. Daniel Case 03:39, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Breaking the flow...

I just noticed that in the first paragraph, the word "violent" is linked. Is this really necessary? I would assume that simple adjectives such as this should be left to their own devices, rather than have their own accompanying articles spring forth from this one.

If you get my drift...— Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.169.180.234 (talk • contribs)

I agree - it's overkill. See Misplaced Pages's guideline on Internal Links. - Slow Graffiti 03:45, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

K is the eleventh letter of the alphabet the masons love the number eleven they are trying to duplicate GOD thereby "they believe eliminating GOD"

I really think that adding that many links is definently overkill. (You get the point, right?) ~user:orngjce223how am I typing? 20:06, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Citation?

In 1991 Thom Robb said that he foresaw imminent respectability for the Klan: "You take Exxon. They had an identity thing to overcome after that oil spill. Well, the Klan has an image problem to overcome, also."

Doesn't this quote need a citation? I know there's a general reference section at the bottom, but does that suffice? - Slow Graffiti 03:45, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Vandal alert

"The Klan was upset because that is their job to do-the sexually assaulting young boys." I don't think the belongs in the article...

The article is thoroughly vandalized, the name of Bill Clinton appears in 19th century events, etc. It is not easy to repair, it should be reverted from backup!

• It is actually extremely easy to repair. Just go to the History tab and select the date before the vandalism. Then click Edit and Save. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-22 17:43

Hi, there's another piece of vandalism on there that I can't believe no-one's spotted: "They hate niggers like keanthony and angelo all them niggers suck.". It's in the opening paragraph.

I would delete it, but the page is protected - can someone sort this out? 14/12/06

The Pictures of Lynchings

Is it really necessary to have such graphic pictures of people being hung from trees. We all know that the KKK carried out lynchings but I think it's very disrespectful to the victims of these terrible crimes for these pictures to be shown on here. - Dangerhertz 12:55, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Pardon for being blunt, but the victims are dead... --Chris (talk) 11:53, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

So that instantly qualifies them to be paraded on here for no real reason? - Dangerhertz 13:03, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

They are not being "paraded" here, they serve to illustrate the barbaric crimes of the KKK. Misplaced Pages is not censored for minors. --Chris (talk) 11:59, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Maybe if their images shock people into realising the atrocities of the KKK, their deaths might have at least some meaning. Iorek85 12:16, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the images are horrific. However, the deeds of the KKK were often horrific and the pictures illustrate this point.--Alabamaboy 12:38, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages isn't censored for the offended. If you have a sound argument for the images' removal, such as POV, historical inaccuracy, or image licensing problems, let us know. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-22 21:43

I personally believe that a fact should be included here, the Ku Klux Klan has received a lot of negative press in it's 140 year history due to their crimes against blacks, and the fact is more African- Americans have killed each other in a single year (2006) than the KKK killed in a century, so if the world is looking for someone to blame for the high rates of violent death in African- American communities they should consider blaming the blacks themselves.

Williamdevino 19:56, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism

Removed Quote

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I tried to remove this vulgarity but I cannot find it in the article code. Can someone remove it? Mike 15:54, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

• Seems to have gone. --Sierra 1 16:17, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
• It's just vandalism. There's no need to get so worked up about it. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-06-22 17:42

Who was worked up? - Slow Graffiti 23:36, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

• Honestly I shouldn't find that funny but I giggled. Am I bad? 32.97.110.142 21:05, 22 June 2006 (UTC)Piepants
• Slightly.

You should find that fucking hilarious.

Picture speaks a thousand words, doesn't it guys?

You shoudln't feel bad, KKK are a bunch of pussies.

Overall editorial issues

I just went through the article to see how things fared with all the vandalism and edits while the article was linked to the main page. Overall, things looked really good. People added a number of corrections to minor aspects of the article (misspellings, wikilinks, and so on) while the vandalism appears to have all been corrected. I did take out a few minor additions because the additions lacked references and thus could not be proved.

Now that the fun and games are done, does anyone else have any comments about Skywriter's proposed edits (see above). If there no one else objects to the edits, I propose we add them in. --Alabamaboy 18:01, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I spent some time editing this article a while back, but gave up. I want to leave this comment for those currently editing the article. As you know since about 1950, no single organization called the "Ku Klux Klan" exists. The name is in the public domain, anyone can use it. Therefore, it is incorrect to say that the "The Klan was involved in the 1964 murders of . . .". What you really should say is "The Aryan Nations Knights of the Ku Klux Klan was involved in the 1964 murders . . ." or whichever specific group it was. The parts of the article about the modern Klan is full of these mistakes. Ydorb 19:16, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Name

Where does the name Ku Klux Klan come from? --Gbleem 21:09, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I was going to ask ths too. Doesn't anyone here know the origin of the name? --TeamCoachingNetwork 16:52, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

The article states, The name was constructed by combining the Greek "kyklos" (circle) with "clan." Ydorb 16:54, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I was once told that name name is the combination of there 3 main enimies, jews (kike's) blacks (koons) and... catholics? im not so sure about the last one.

My apologies; still struggling to decipher my watchlist! --TeamCoachingNetwork 16:56, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

and on and on

After surfing through this article it seems to me like both this and the Black Power article were written from a one sided point of view. Yes yes i know. Those darn white people. Talk about beating a dead horse. 65.49.129.103 02:47, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

The funny thing is that an editor complained not too long ago that this article was essentially a recruiting piece for the KKK and seemed like a Klan member had written it. The truth of the matter, though, is that a lot of readers bring their own biases to this article and read it as they wish to. Such is life.--Alabamaboy 13:11, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Why delete references, especially Primary Source?

At this juncture , I added this PRIMARY SOURCE on the history of the KKK and it has since been deleted. I'd like to know why.

• KKK Hearings, 46th Congress, 2d Session, Senate Report 693

At that same link, I added the following two recent Klan histories, the first by Chalmers, distinguished professor of history at the University of Florida, and the second by Newton, a journalist. Both references have been deleted. I would like to know why. Both are updated accounts of the Klan, and Chalmers's is a history book.

• Chalmers, David M., Hooded Americans: The History of the Ku Klux Klan. Historian John Hope Franklin said, "Hooded Americanism is the only work that treats Ku Kluxism for the entire period of its existence. ... It is the authoritative work on the period. Hooded Americanism is exhaustive in its rich detail and its use of primary materials to paint the picture of a century of terror. It is comprehensive, since it treats the entire period, and enjoys the perspective that the long view provides. It is timely, since it emphasizes the undeniable persistence of terrorism in American life."

• Newton, Michael, The Invisible Empire: The Ku Klux Klan in Florida (University Press of Florida: 2001) ISBN: 0813021200. "The Ku Klux Klan was at least as violent in Florida as anywhere else in the nation, and the sheriffs, juries, judges, politicians, press, and citizens, for the most part, as culpable in its murderous history."

I have repeatedly pointed out, now on archived talk page, that the article falsely states that Horn was a historian. He is not. Why has this fact been continually overlooked? If anyone bothers to click the link, you can read for yourself that Horn was a forestry writer and publisher, in other words a trade journalist. Why does this article call him a historian?

The following is what the article states:

• Horn, Stanley F. Invisible Empire: The Story of the Ku Klux Klan, 1866-1871, Patterson Smith Publishing Corporation: Montclair, NJ, 1939.

Horn, born in 1889, was a Southern historian who was sympathetic to the first Klan, which, in a 1976 oral interview , he was careful to distinguish from the later "spurious Ku Klux organization which was in ill-repute—and, of course, had no connection whatsoever with the Klan of Reconstruction days."

Why does this article quote Horn 13 times and exclude the more recent histories that are not as pro-Klan as Stanley Horn?

Horn's book is extremely favorable to the Klan, as the Reference section states, because he ignored the PRIMARY RESOURCE for the era he wrote about, and that is this:

• KKK Hearings, 46th Congress, 2d Session, Senate Report 693

Trelease, Chalmers and Newton use testimony from the KKK Congressional hearings. Why has this primary resource from the Reconstruction era been epeatedly reverted?

Skywriter 22:22, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

That was probably an oversight. Add the references in.--Alabamaboy 13:14, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Klans in California

In the west coast, despite the distance from the civil war and there was no slavery, the Ku Klux Klan took on other names and plans to subvert power for 80 years. In the 1920's and 1930's, the California chapter of the Klan stirred racial violence against blacks, but expanded the list to include Chinese, Japanese, Mexicans, Armenians and certain European immigrants esp. Jews are the most hated group after blacks. They appealed to a nativist attitude on the fears of "yellow" and "Spanish" invasions, or immigration of Asians and Latin Americans into the western US.

Today, the KKK serves as a local race-baiting underground force against illegal immigration, homosexuality (gay rights) and liberal politics they decried is generating "moral decline" and the percentage of whites in the state is much lower, now are another minority group in racial demographics. Because Cal. is a blue state and has never been completely "racist enough" towards black people, the KKK feels Cal. is a failed project, yet most racial/other attacks in Cal. are directed against American Jews, Asian Americans and Hispanic Americans.

The Klan always find a specific regional "threat" like the Northeast, where they formerly harassed Roman Catholics and ethnic groups from Southern or Eastern Europe. It's evident from the group's origins in the Southeast US is the black race was their enemy, but they carried a long list of "enemies": liberals, anti-Klan conservatives, "radical" feminists, certain Christians, homosexuals and globalization will drive down the white race. The KKK stirs fears and fabricated racial issues to create a scare that a few people actually joined the Klan. +207.200.116.69 05:49, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Secret Society

Anyone know why the KKK are listed in the Category for Secret Societies? Zos

They are not a secret society, rather, they are a society that has secrets. That may have something to do with it. Ste4k 05:07, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Main Site as external link.

Per guideline WP:EL#What_should_be_linked_to articles about any organization, person, or other entity should link to their official site, if they have one. Is there any reason why this guideline shouldn't be practiced on this page? Please forgive, if this is an frequently asked question. Thanks. Ste4k 04:42, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

The Klu Klux Klan no longer exists, so they don't have a web site. However, many different organizations use the phrase as part of their name or identity, for instance the Imperial Klans of America. These should be linked directly to the organization's web site. Ydorb 16:48, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

What makes the IKA different, specifically, from the earlier "1st KKK", "2nd KKK", "Later KKK's", etc.? They appear to me from an objective perspective to be another rendition of the KKK just as it has come and gone before. The basis of the first KKK was that "Ku Klux Klan" was how they referred to themselves. The IKA appear to me to be referring to themselves as the "Ku Klux Klan". Why should I, a reader of this article, believe that they are not the KKK? Ste4k 17:01, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

The difference is that they hold no legal rights to the name "Ku Klux Klan." Since it is a rather powerful name, many other organizations also use it: for instance, this one. The name "Ku Klux Klan" is no longer trademarked. It's in the public domain. Members of the IKA might all be klansmen, but not all klansmen are members of the IKA. It is like referring to a US Army corporal as a "soldier". It is true, but not all soldiers are in the US Army.

This was not true of the 1st and 2nd KKKs. At the time a Klansman referred to a member of a single organization. Ydorb 21:07, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Are these two afore mentioned groups at odds with eachother over the name? Is there a legal court suit or something similar? It seems to me that in your analogy about soldiers you are speaking of a strictly heirarchical chain of command that extends to the President, and a heirarchy which has been democratically adopted by a nation. If there are only two known groups that are actively pronouncing themselves as KKK, then unless they have some sort of grievance between them over their legitimacy then it could equally be constured that each of them is only acting as a public representative arm of a larger secretly associated group and/or associations with each other. Per your analogy again, there are thousands of Christians, many are Methodists, many are Anglican, they only establish themselves as Christians based on their individual beliefs which are self declared. I'm sure that the label "Christian" is also public domain. Ste4k 10:54, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Christian is a good analogy. No single organization called "christian" exists, therefore the Christian page cannot link to it. Instead it refers to a List of Christian denominations, which in turn link to specific web pages. For a sampling of current organizations related to KKK in the name, see the list maintained by the Southern Poverty Law Center. Ydorb 16:56, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm on vacation so I can't engage in a deep discussion on this but I support Ydorb's Christian analogy. There are a large number of groups claiming to be the real KKK these days. I don't think we should link to any of these b/c almost all of them are fringe groups with just a few members and not any "official" version of the KKK.--Alabamaboy 13:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Conservative

User:C56C and I appear to have a disagreement as to whether this article belongs in Category:Conservative organisations. My feeling is that the historical Klan is skew-wise from any conservative-liberal axis, while the current Klan doesn't even really qualify as an "organization", since in reality there are multiple Klans with a range of viewpoints from something that could be called conservative to downright rabid loony bigots. --jpgordon 22:52, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

• The motivation for organizing the Klan was profoundly "conservative", in the literal sense of "opposing change". However the category is obviously intended to aggregate articles on groups with mainstream conservative views. The distinction may be fuzzy and so I propose using a narrower category. It appears that the article falls into several categories which are already redundant with Category:Ku Klux Klan, so I will endeavor to clean those up a bit. To satisfy the urge to identify the Klan's extremist views with the political spectrum, it may be useful to create a new category withing Category:Conservative organisations to separate those with extreme views. This is, of course, an invitation to POV abuse, so I will proceed slowly. --Dystopos 23:32, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Upon further reflection, I decided to move the other category links to the existing Category:Ku Klux Klan. Those categories (White Supremecist groups in the United States, Anti-Semitism, Anti-Catholicism, etc etc) better define the aims of the KKK than "Conservative organisations", so I removed that link. If anyone wishes to restore it, I again recommend doing so through another layer of categorization indicating that the views of supremecists are outside of mainstream conservative political thought. --Dystopos 23:43, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Catholics

David Duke Opened The Klan To White Catholics in 1975 -- signed by ANON IP

Correct...but often required to take an oath to reject most Catholic doctrine and policies of the church, even resist orders from the pope himself. The klan still refuses to allow most Hispanics (esp. mestizos or mulattos of both black/white and/or white/Amerindian blood) into a white racist organization. Asians are still barred from ever joining the group, despite the majority of Asian Americans are treated as "white" or light-skinned, said to assimilated enough in a few generations. I think Jews, Arabs and Native Americans cannot enter the klan membership, but what about whites who are a quarter "black" (to show or appear on genealogical documents the klan leaders want to read or examine before accepting the new recruit) or "non-white"/"non-Aryan" that may extend to some Sicilian Americans and certain Slavic Americans? + 63.3.14.1 08:12, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

KKK symbol

Hi. I don't know anything about the KKK but perhaps this image I found on the Dutch Misplaced Pages could be usefull? -- Face 18:18, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Hey there I read about this on Johnny Lee Clary's site just the other day. I was actually responding to the post below but just glanced at what you asked. I am sure the drop of blood in the centre is a sybol of Aryian blood. Anyway he has it under his questions section @ www.xkkk.org Potters house 17:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

John Clary

Was there ever a KKK leader named Johnny Lee Clary (or Johnny Clary or John Clary)? Supposedly he quit the group and began preaching 'against hate'.

His story is in The Day I Met God. --Uncle Ed 13:37, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Most people how I have seen who say he wasn't are anonymous. He has been on Oprah, Donahue, Andrew Denton etc. I don't think that these guys would get it that wrong. Potters house 17:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't Delete Factual Information Without Cause

Why is this paragraph that I have edited in being removed???? It's factual information. Look it up yourself. I provided a source. It was taken from that website as well as a History Channel documentary on the history of the KKK. I should also be noted that the group's founders thought up comical and silly names for the ranks and positions in the groups, such as Grand Dragon and the like. It was all a hazing joke to them at first.

"The Ku Klux Klan was, in its inception, a social club for young men seeking amusement and entertainment. Members would make midnight raids on the town of Pulaski dressed in elaborate costumes consisting of bedsheets or masks pretending to be ghosts or demons in order to frighten or amuse townspeople. The members soon found a target for their pranks. They used their costumes and raids to frighten recently freed slaves into believing that they were the ghosts of killed Confederate soldiers."

This information is absolutely accurate and important to understanding how the group started, what the original intentions of the founders were and how the group was corrupted and how it became the organization it did. It is accurate information that DESERVES to be in the article. Read the source. Watch the History Channel documentary on the KKK. It's real information and it deserves to be in the article. I know this is Misplaced Pages, and we can make history whatever we want, thank you Stephen Colbert, but this information provides insight into the history of the KKK at its inception. Please do not remove it without cause. If you wish to remove it, find a source that refutes it and cite it as a reason for the removal. It is genuine information and should be included. By removing it, you are depriving the article of information based on some personal ideology or agenda. -- unsigned comment by User:Sivazh

• The motivations and amusements of the first night riders would be all but impossible to establish, as reports of people's attitudes are, by definition, subjective. There is, I might assume, some truth to the idea that virulent and violent hatred of non-whites was not the only motivation for dressing in costumes and parading in moonlight, but we should carefully cite the claims made by these sources as claims, rather than as fact. You are wrong to place the burden on those who have removed your contributions. If you will participate in a discussion here about how to include the documentary evidence you have turned up, I think you will find that we can form a consensus and avoid an edit war. --Dystopos 05:16, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

• No, actually, the motivations for the starting of the KKK are WELL documented. I have provided sources. And, there is no discussion. Calling someone an apologist for White Terror? Yes, there is a perfectly rational editor you can have a discussion with. It's people that like to ignore FACTUAL information simply because it doesn't fit their world view that SHOULD NOT be allowed to edit. History is not made up of facts that are convenient to us, it's made up of facts that happened. If you look at probably any source, the same information will be related. The fact that the editors on Wiki think they can just ignore it when it is solid factual information just confims that Wiki is a joke.

• You're right, the burden should not be on those who just delete what they don't like. Yeah, they shouldn't have to provide any sources that refute my actual factual sources that I site. Yeah, they should just be able to call me an apologist for White Terror and delete it. What a farce.

Organization of the Ku Klux Klan

Here is the list of all the organizations that represent sub-group of the Ku Klux Klan since her dissolution in 1944.

• Alabama Empire Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• Alabama White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• America's Invisible Empire Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• American Klan Association
• American Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• Aryan Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• Bayou Patriots Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• California Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• California's Invincible Empire
• California Golden Knights (of the KKK)
• California White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• Confederate Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• Confederate National Congress
• Confederation of Independent Orders
• Dixieland White Knights
• Federated Knights of the Ku Klux Klan in South and North Carolina
• Fiery Cross Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• Georgia's New Order of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• Green Mountain Knights
• Illinois Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• Imperial Klans of America, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• Independent Northern and Southern Klans
• Indiana Realm of the Ku Klux Klan
• International Keystone Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• Invincible Empire Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• Invincible Empire, Knights of the White Rose
• Invisible Empire
• Invisible Empire Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• Invisible Empire, Indiana Ku Klux Klan
• Invisible Empire, Pennsylvania Ku Klux Klan
• Iowa's White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• Justice Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• JWS Militant Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• Kansas Klan Knights (or Kansas KKK)
• Keystone Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• Klan Youth Corps
• Klinton Kounty Knights
• Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• Knights of the White Kamellia
• Knights of the White Rose
• Lake County Triple K Club
• Michigan Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• Michigan Realm of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• Missouri Federation of Klans, Inc.
• Missouri New Order Ku Klux Klan
• National Association for the Advancement of White People
• National Ku Klux Klan (not the original one)
• National Knights
• National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• Nevada Ku Klux Klan
• New Empire Ku Klux Klan
• New Jersey's White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• New Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• New Order Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• New Order Party, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• North Carolina's White Knights of Liberty
• North Georgia Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• Northwest Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• Northwest United Klan
• Nutmeg Knights
• Ohio Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• Ohio's Independent Invisible Knights
• Oklahoma Knights of the Ku Klux klan
• Order of the Fiery Cross,
• Order of the Ku Klux Klan
• Oregon Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• Pennsylvania's White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• Rangers of the Cross, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• Realm of Florida
• Rebel Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• Saints of the South (Christian Klans Knights of the South)
• Southern Camelia Knights (of the KKK)
• Southern Cross Militant Knights
• Southern Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• Southern White Knights
• Stormfront (not affiliated, but allied with KKK)
• Templar Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• Tennessee's United Empire Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• Texas Emergency Reserve
• Third State Empire
• Tri-State Knights Riders of the Ku Klux Klan
• U S Klans Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• Union Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• United Confederate Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• United Klans of America
• United Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• White Camelia Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• White Heritage Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• White Knights
• White and Red Knights of the Ku Klux Klan (Canada)
• White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
• White Nations of the Ku Klux Klan
• White Patriots Party
• White Shield Knights of the Ku Klux Klan

The majority contains just a dozen of members while some of them are big groups like "Knights of the Ku Klux Klan". Shall we put this list on the page ?

I think the list is overkill. There are hundreds of orgs that claim the KKK mantel, most with only a few members (as you state). I think I prefer the article as it is, which lists just a few of the bigger overshoots and mentions that there are many more.--Alabamaboy 17:58, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe we should put the entire list on a link to wikiquote because I think it's important. Roger_Smith

Don't be an apologist for White terror

If other editors agree, the material from the pro-KKK history can remain, but placed in context as part of a propoganda campaign by the KKK to sanitize its real nature as a White terror organization. It is somewhat disheartening to see an editor acting as an apologist for White terror, and pretending that inserting a claim from a KKK source is merely a way to make accurate the "intentions of the founders...and how the group was corrupted." Historians minimize these claims, recognizing them as dubious and perhaps mythical. --Cberlet 13:25, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

• It is proper to cite historians and other tertiary sources on Misplaced Pages in order to avoid Original Research. It is not up to us to place this propaganda into context ourselves. In my opinion the "pro-KKK" material could appear, but only as direct quotation from its source, and the scholarship that would refute those claims should be produced as soon as possible so that both points of view are represented without the need for our own views. --Dystopos 14:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

This information should not be included. First off, the pro-KKK source is questionable. While the KKK did start as a social club (as our original reference to a well-known history book said) the other so-called facts about what they did are mere annecdote and legend. Unless a more reliable historic source on par with the other well-known sources we have used in this article can be provided, these additions should not be added. The second reason for not adding all this stuff is that it doesn't add anything to the article. Mentioning that the KKK started as a social club as the article orginally did is fine since it is a short mention. Going on for a paragraph about this is too much of a minor detail. The KKK are not known for their social club pranks. Finally, before adding this info consensus needs to be gained to do so. Since I see no consensus to add the info, I say it remains out.--Alabamaboy 13:27, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

The Sweet Confirmation of bias and agenda by Misplaced Pages editors

Yes, this just confirms for me that the Wiki editors believe that they can simply manipulate history, they can change facts whenever they see fit, they can use it for personal agenda, and they can simply ignore what they do not like and add what they do. This is why Misplaced Pages has no credibility in the real world.

And, by calling someone an apologist for White Terror???? Yes, this shows no personal agenda does it. What a joke. It's the fact that people like you can edit this information so that history is reflected the way you want it to is a complete farce.

From History Channel: It (the KKK) was organized at Pulaski, Tenn., in May, 1866. Its strange disguises, its silent parades, its midnight rides, its mysterious language and commands, were found to be most effective in playing upon fears and superstitions. The riders muffled their horses' feet and covered the horses with white robes. They themselves, dressed in flowing white sheets, their faces covered with white masks, and with skulls at their saddle horns, posed as spirits of the Confederate dead returned from the battlefields. Although the Klan was often able to achieve its aims by terror alone, whippings and lynchings were also used, not only against blacks but also against the so-called carpetbaggers and scalawags."

But, if you want to deceive yourselves of factual information and instead live in your little fantasy world of how the world works, feel free.

I have always advised my school kids that Wiki is a joke of a source, perhaps a good starting point, but this confirms that it is a biased and completely unreliable source.--sivazh 10 August 2006.

I'll continue to advise my school kids that Wiki is an amazingly accurate site, AND that the KKK are mentally ill, psychotic, dillusional, savage devil worshippers. That's why they burn that cross kiddies! Cactus Jack

Soft targets

Negroes in the United states never retaliate when Klansmen kill negroes. The Ku Klux Klansmen slay soft targets, and they have always slain soft targets. Jews have finally said: "Never again!" Jews are no longer being attacked by Ku Klux Klansmen, therefore. Negroes are permanent soft targets, therefore the Ku Klux Klan will have available a supply of soft targets. The Ku Klux Klansmen avoid people who retaliate. Negroes will never retaliate, though. Superslum 05:47, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Whats this gotta do with anything? And mind your language, you sound extremely hostile, basically don't be a dick222.155.12.62 18:22, 6 August 2006 (UTC)me

He could be a member, or a racist, if you don't mind my saying. And please, if you aren't, don't take this as offensive. It is just a suggestion, and isn't meant to harm anybody. If you aren't one (or even if you are), please be kinder in those phrases. ~Dreyfus2006 (I forgot to sign in)

Authentic History of the Ku Klux Klan 1865-1877 (1924) - Susan Lawrence Davis

Yes, here is more confirmation of my information that the editors of Wiki just seem to wish to ignore simply because it doesn't fit their world view.

Tell me, was Susan Lawrence Davis an aplogist for White Terror too because she attempted to paint the history of the ORIGINAL KKK accurately?? Does the word hypocrite mean anything to you??

"Is today's Ku Klux Klan fulfilling the original intent of the founders? Learn the truth, go back to the sources and learn what the founder's desires in 1865 were, before disbanding the group in 1877. Susan Lawrence Davis was the daughter of one of the founding members who started the Klan, and she has seen, heard, and accumlated much insiders documentation. Excellently and beautifully reprinted, including many great photos documenting the story. 316 pages."

Proposal for inclusion on kkk article

Please help clean this up - I moved it to http://en.wikipedia.org/User:Potters_house/Knights_of_the_Ku_Klux_Klan Potters house 17:32, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Also for the inclusion of the link http://en.wikipedia.org/Leaders_of_the_Ku_Klux_Klan Potters house 17:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Ripples of Battle: How Wars of the Past Still Determine How We Fight, How We Live, and How We Think

The quote from the source sounded rather dubious, and I removed it. Its statement doesn't fit or is neccessary for that. In fact, it sounds like trying to drive a point of view home with the democratic party. Kevin_b_er 04:15, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Search for the word "democratic party" there are other sources talking about the connection between democratic party and KKK. democratic party is mentioned many times in this article. See also * Trelease, Allen W. White Terror: The Ku Klux Klan Conspiracy and Southern Reconstruction (Louisiana State University Press: 1995). First published in 1971 and based on massive research in primary sources, this is the most comprehensive treatment of the Klan and its relationship to post-Civil War Reconstruction. Includes narrative research on other night-riding groups. Details close link between Klan and late 19th century and early 20th century Democratic Party.

70.48.100.88 04:22, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, pre-civil war. The problem is with quoting the citation which makes it sound overly POV. "championed a return of near-servile status to emancipated blacks" As a whole, it sounds like its trying to discredit a political party of present day. Is the status of the democratic party with relation to the KKK and their supposed position on emancipation relevant? The author's POV should be taken into prospective, and their direct quotes influence the point of view of the article itself. It could be much better served as not being a direct quote in some manner to denote that the KKK had or utilized affilations or relationships with the democratic party then. Kevin_b_er 04:41, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Furthurmore, it would probably be better served as being in the Creation subsection of The first Ku Klux Klan. Would you agree? Kevin_b_er 04:44, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the questions raised about this info and think it doesn't belong here. While the dem party was tied in with the KKK back then, the use of the quote here is misleading and POV. Keep it out. Besides, this point is already made elsewhere in the article, which states the ties the klan had with both parties. As has been previously stated on this talk page, before adding anything contentious to this article consensus to do so must be gained. I'd say consensus has not been achieved to add this.--Alabamaboy 13:17, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

requested edit

The article is currently blocked so could someone please remove the link to Westboro Baptist Church in the See Also section. They are not affiliated with the KKK and have nothing to do with them.

Justify use of the term "homophobia".

First read the defintion of "homophobia" then justify its use here. The Klan is considered a "hate" group, not a group with a "phobia". Explain how and when the Klan obtained their "fear" of homosexuality... and source it. --Britcom 18:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that the word Anti-homosexualism is not used by almost anyone (only a few hundred google hits). The word is a neologism, which is not allowed at Misplaced Pages. In addition, the article you created for Anti-homosexualism is being considered for deletion, which is further evidence most editors do not agree with you on this one. Best, --Alabamaboy 18:56, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

As a final point: This article is not the place to fight this battle. If you can win the AfD over Anti-homosexualism and convince the editors at homophobia to go with this alternate term, then come back here and I'm sure everyone will be more receptive to the use of the term.--Alabamaboy 19:06, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

"Anti-homosexualism" is irrelevant. You didn't justify use of "homophobia" did you? I don't recall asking for anything else. I suggest that it is falsely applied here. --Britcom 19:51, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

It has been several days now and no one has justified (or even attempted to justify) the use of the term "homophobia" in connection with the Klan. --Britcom 11:04, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

How about 76,000 google hits for Klu Klux Klan and homophobia. How about , , Henry E. Adams, Lester W. Wright, and Bethany A. Lohr. “Is Homophobia Associated with Homosexual Arousal?” Journal of Abnormal Psychology, 1996. Volume 105, No. 3. Pages 440-445; The Ku Klux Klan and Related American Racialist and Antisemitic Organizations by Chester L Quarles, page 123; Homophobia: How We All Pay the Price, edited by Warren J Blumenfeld, page 66; and so on. And those are only a few of the references. Sorry, but the evidence doesn't support your use of this neologism and you don't seem to have the consensus here to use the word. Best, --Alabamaboy 13:20, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Inflammatory: WKKK to Radical Feminism

The titel of this section is inflammatory and imparts to the reader the impression that the author of those passages has not only an agenda, but a personal axe to grind. The section itself does no better; the (purposeful?) conflation of the women's branch of a white supremacist organisation with the modern feminist movement is absolutely shameful. It is more than a presentation of parallels between purportedly common ideas that occurs in those paragraphs. The idea that the radical feminist movement arose out of the WKKK is, indubitably, absolutely false.

First of all, sentences such as the following: "In the late 1800s WKKK women basically went around talking about what black men might do to them, while KKK men preached the sanctity of "white womanhood". The sexually hypercharged imagery, together with economic desires of slave-owners," are sloppily formulated. The first sentence is so vague in its phrasing as to render itself ridiculous, and the second sentence fragment is just factually incorrect. The phrase would have to be _former_ slave owners to be valid. Then, this: "Many Men's Rights and Father's Rights activists view radical feminist agendas and legislature such as the VAWA as invoking the same profiling and sexual imagery and simply excluding 'black' from the old WKKK jargon while inserting 'oppression' as an added profile of all men." Perhaps, but who cares? What do the purported feelings or views of Men's/Father's Rights activists concerning (hypothetical) modern radical feminist goals and political activities have to do with the organisation being portrayed? Then there's this: "Early WKKK radical feminists also wrote about the drudgery of motherhood and other typical feminist topics we read about today.", which is just totally irresponsible, and makes it abundantly clear that these passages are not at all about a sober profile of the WKKK, but rather the author's personal crusade against radical feminism and/or feminism, period. Seriously, what has this: "A common overarching theme was women using their sexual power to get men to do whatever they wanted – a theme identical to the core ideology of the contemporary V-Day initiatieve pushed by N.O.W. in hopes of replacing Valentine's Day with a murky celebration of misandry.", to do with an impartial report on this group? Such statements--and these paragraphs are full of them--are nothing more than prejudicial pronouncements.

If all that wasn't questionable enough: this section is lifted almost wholesale, word-for-word, from an article by a man named David R. Usher. It is called "From the Women's Ku Klux Klan in the late 1800's to the systematic destruction of American families today". It is from a website called www.dadsnow.org from the year 2000, and can now be found at the following link: http://fathersforlife.org/Table_contents_gj.htm#WKKK. The Fathers For Life website is a Men's Rights/Father's Rights site, as was its old home, Dads Now. So, it is either--in addition to being just plain biased and wrong--plagiarism, or an attempt by Mr. Usher himself to see his personal views validated and disseminated by a forum such as Misplaced Pages.

Whoever added this section of this Wiki entry did much the same at the entries for 'feminazi' and 'radical feminism', in almost the exact same words. He has apparently read the Kathleen Blee book (if he has actually read it) as a justification for and support of his hatred of present-day feminism. I would kindly suggest that this section be removed and replaced with something a great deal more impartial and substantive. Thank you.

The Beach 13:09, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The section sounds like self-promotional copy to me and I've removed it. In addition, the editor who added it should seek consensus on the addition before adding it in. --Alabamaboy 13:25, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Loneranger4justice 11 September 2006

I have revised much of the WKK and would like to address the many comments of this edit: 1] use of the bookcover is not self-promotional, it is the only photo of women's KKK I could find, and since it is a bookcover it is fair use, with no copy right violations. 2] WKKK is an important historic fact, and to ignore the involvment by women in the KKK is like ignoring the involvment of germans in the nazi party, certainly many would like to do so, but it is not really truthful. If any of you all can edit the topic better, please do so, but don't just sweep it aside. Any criticism of feminism, on any forum, seems to disappear in a similar manner, contrast this with the pages and pages of criticism found on the Father's rights page. Yes. much of the edit is similar to the 'dad's now' website referenced in this discussion, this same analysis can be found on multiple other websites dedicated to men's and father's rights, and the analysis between the narratives would be more helpful if used to edit, rather than delete, this important topic. The fundamental crux of this section is twofold: firstly, there was a substantial Woman's Klan, and secondly than many of the issues and tactics of the early WKKK were adopted by radical feminists. Please help me with citations or edits to improve this sections, but don't just delete it because it happens to point out some hard facts that you don't want to be heard. I have reverted to the earlier edit, in hopes that it will generate some participation to further improve this section. Thank you: Loneranger4justice.

The problem is that what you are saying is support by only one book. That said, I have no objection to adding a small section about women in the klan, using this book (and anything else you can find) as a reference. However, I do not support summing up the entire book's POV arguements, which, since I have not seen these arguements in any other credible literature, does not strike me as a mainstream historical consensus. What I would support is stating the facts about the WKKK, stating that one author believes their tactics were adopted by early feminists, and let that be about it. Any other comments from people?--Alabamaboy 13:17, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

-- There should be a section on the WKKK. I have atempted to include some facts and figures and references to the book by Kathleen Blee should be included as a definitive research, or at least a citation, the most remarkable thing about the book is the dozens of first hand interviews of WKKK memnbers conducted by the author/historian. The book cover is a good illustration, because it is free use, and is the only historic photo I know of depicting women in full klan regalia, inclusion of a better photo would be welcomed. The second important issue is the link or convergence of WKKK agendas, tactics, and slogans later adopted by radical feminist organizations. Thirdly the the decline of the WKKK (and the KKK) coincides with the passage of the 19th ammendment, the woman's right to vote. These are all historical matters, and not inflamatory, even if feminists would like to conceal the involement of women in the KKK and the links between these two groups. I suggest that a WKKK section should be included, with invitations for others to provide additional research, citations, or illustrations. The rest of the KKK article is well written, historically factual, nor does it embelish or omit the racism, violence or discrimination by the KKK. A section on the WKKK should be equally truthful, and should not be limited to the feminst POV to portray the KKK as a male-only group, nor downplay the role of women in KKK activities. loneranger4justice 11 September 2006

ps: a quick google of these topics produces dozens of web sites that discuss the link between the WKKK and radical feminism. Most of the writers are men's rights and father's rights advocates.

Another 'credible' source, an overview of the book 'Aryan Cowboys' is found at: http://www.utexas.edu/utpress/excerpts/exschary.html - This book seems to have an overwhelming feminist POV, but none-the-less provides excellent history and analysis of the use of 'sexual imagry' by the klan, ie:

"In her study of the the 1920s women's KKK (WKKK), Blee notes that "gender and sexuality were compelling symbols in the two largest waves of the , those of the 1860s and the 1920s." Each Klan called white Protestant men to protect white womanhood and white female purity. Both the 1860s and the 1920s Klan "dissolved a myriad of social, economic, and racial issues into powerful symbols of womanhood and sexual virtue." Klansmen of the 1860s insisted that white women benefited from the Southern racial state, without which they would be raped and brutalized by black men, who were considered no better than primitive animals.

White women became highly visible symbols through which the Klan could rouse public fears that blacks' retaliation against their former white masters would be exacted upon white mothers, daughters, and wives. The Klan spread the belief that white men were powerless to aid white women who faced frightful sexual violations by black men. Klan propaganda played on not only the fears of women, but also unspoken fears of men. To a Klansman, the abolition of slavery ended white men's sexual access to black women, and it also potentially ended white men's exclusive sexual access to white women.

Blee notes that the Klan's call to defend white women against rape by black men signified a relation of power not only between white men and women, but also between white men and black men. The Klan's emphasis on the threat of black men raping white women served as a warning to both black men and white women about interracial relationships, but underlying the obvious references to potential sexual violation was a deeper threat to white men's sexual privileges. When mobs of Klansmen sexually tortured and emasculated black men, they were, in a sense, validating their claim that masculinity ("real manhood") remained white men's exclusive prerogative. Blee argued that "southern women, white and black, occupied a symbolic terrain on which white men defended their racial privileges." Symbols of white female vulnerability and white masculine potency, Blee notes, "took power equally from beliefs in masculine and in white supremacy."

"The idea of "white womanhood," however, served as a critical rallying point for the post-Civil War Klan and its violent campaigns. White women benefited from the Southern racial state, Klansmen insisted, because it protected their "virtue" from the lower, more primitive men of color who could not control their animal lusts in the presence of white women. Throughout the writings of the first Klan, the theme of imperiled white womanhood provided a continuous rhetoric of gender roles and true manhood, which was white. Without the Klan, white men were powerless to assist white women who faced potential rape at the hands of former slaves."

It should be readily apparent to anyone aware of men's rights that the same demogoguery, villification, profiling, and discrimination and use of lurid sexual imagry once directed against black men by the WKKK, rides again in radical feminist agendas such as the VAWA.

loneranger4justice 11 September 2006

Since I haven't heard any feedback from you last post, I will post another small section about the WKKK, and include comment the author analysis and father's rights groups that link the early WKKK to certain feminist agendas. loneranger4justice 12 September 2006

I may be an anonymous editor but I support Alabamaboy's comments and don't think more than a brief mention should be made about all of this. Also I looked at Alabamaboy's talk page and it said he was on a short break. His lack of response probably doesn't mean he supports what Loneranger4justice said.--206.165.32.108 14:07, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

This shouldn't be added. Seems like someone is pushing an agenda with it.--Onedayoneday 21:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

loneranger4justice, as I originally said I'd support a short paragraph on the WKKK. An entire section, though, is no warranted. You are welcome, though, to create an entire article on the WKKK and we can link to that from this article (i.e., main article: WKKK). I should add, though, that your comment "It should be readily apparent to anyone aware of men's rights that the same demogoguery, villification, profiling, and discrimination and use of lurid sexual imagry once directed against black men by the WKKK, rides again in radical feminist agendas such as the VAWA" suggests you have a strong POV regarding this subject, so try not to insert that into the article. Best, --Alabamaboy 19:29, 16 September 2006 (UTC) I will create a WKKK stub & link to KKK. thank you for your thoughts on POV, it often seems to me that much of Misplaced Pages has an extreme feminist, misandric, gynocentric POV, and anyone that tries to insert a differing view is deleted on POV issues. I'll try to keep the stub balanced. loneranger4justice 18 September 2006

star * missing

When i look at other featured articles like India or Pakistan, a star comes on right hand side top of the main article. Can somebody please tell me why cant i see the star here. Thanks.nids(♂) 19:01, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Might be a problem with your web browser b/c when I looked a second ago it was there. --Alabamaboy 19:36, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, i checked its there. I had to move to right to see the star. Perhaps (for some reason), the width of this article is more than the others. Sorry for bothering you.nids(♂) 19:46, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Firefight

I remember this on the news long ago: A firefight happened between some Klansmen, allies and the American Communist Party. Martial Law 07:11, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Any Refernces on here about this firefight ? Martial Law 07:12, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Wilson

I had to change the section on Wilson. The entry from the Wilson article from more accurate. I will look up, and add, more footnotes as soon as I can. Hanover81

Second KKK

I note under the Activities section it claims that the second KKK was to a larger degree Republican. There is no reference to back this up. The entry also begs the question as to why, later on in the century, did JFK have to rely on Republicans to push through the 1964 Civil Rights Act when the Democrats held the House 60/40. Only 60% of Democrats voted for the Act, whilst 80% of Republicans did. The assertion needs to be backed up.

Klan Appologist

This entire article is very one-sided and at several points is clearly trying to argue a particular point of view. This isn't information being delivered for the purpose of informing, it's an attempt to sanitize the image of the Ku Klux Klan.

Basically it's a collection of cut and paste from writers who are trying to build an arguement with a specific point of view: The Klan was really not so bad. There are too many references to 'lawless' or 'rebellious' ex-slaves with no citation. They're just pastes from these other sources and the sources have a clear point of view. The article is designed to paint the Klan as just a bunch of decent southern boys who were trying to restore order and decency in their community.

• Do you have any specific suggestions to improve the article? --jpgordon 17:32, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I do not like the Ku Klux Klan

Who else here doesn't like them?

Looking at the crime statistics of black against white crime for the past 30 years my "white guilt" is assuaged since it appears that blacks have killed at least as many whites as whites have killed blacks

Why don't racists ever consider surpression, how the children are raised, prejudice as counting factors as to why other "races" act as they do. It has absolutely nothing to do with their race how much they kill, they don't instinctly want to hurt people. It's rather abuse from whites and from their parents that got abused by whites, whose parents got abused by whites etc. and how the children are raised, rather than the colour of their skin.(I can prove this easily, put a black person in a good(race doesn't matter) family with no corruption or prejudice towards him(especially from his environment) and see how he grows up; Promise you he'll turn out to be a great person with loads of success and he will most definately not kill any one.

Storkian's Response: Me too... I cant believe i missed your topic in this discussion! I accidently created one for me with some of your thoughts. Well at least me and you know that KKK is undereducated and have no evidence to prove why "white supermacy" is a good idea. -- 14:44, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Possible vandalism?

Right after the introduction of the article is the message: "Nick Childers is cool!"

Black Members of the Ku Klux Klan

I have seen pictures, and a few notes regarding actual "Black" members of the Ku Klux Klan, however, I lost the information now. Can anyone confirm this?

• Sounds like a load to me, why would you join a white power group...if your black?!--Zhukov 01:50, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

• Well the World is an odd place, I just swear I've seen pictures of it, and notes. They might have joined the KKK for the same reason people do as myg0t does(Internet Raging Community, basically likes to piss off people and see their reactions) or as trolls does in online forums, just to piss off blacks. -- Atheuz 17:21, 21 November 2006(CET)

I remember like 1 week ago that we were watching a doctumentary-type movie about Race ad all its aspects. I speciallcy remember that were at a part bout a black man who said he was in the KKK. He said that he had a drink at a bar w/ a white guy. They were talkin n such and the white guy said "this is the 1st time I had a drink with a black man." the black guy said "why?" the guy said "because Im in the KKK.".....they black guy was talkin about bein the KKK like it was no deal.....he had the white robe w/ black stripes on the sleeves (I think it ment to mean that hes black when wearing it), had the books.......it REALLY needs to be added to the KKK article to let people know that there are black people who are in the KKK......hmm. not that I come to think of it, he bore a resemblence to Uncle Ruckus from the Boondocks...."THROUGH FIRE, JUSTICE IS SERVED!" 23:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

• There was an African American sheriff's deputy who retired a few years ago who had joined some branch of the KKK by mail and kept track of klan activities through correspondence. He never participated in any meetings or wore a robe, though. I wouldn't recommend adding anything to the article that doesn't have a specific citation. And the Chapelle Show doesn't count. --Dystopos 23:47, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I didnt say anything about the chapelle show. "THROUGH FIRE, JUSTICE IS SERVED!" 04:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Savages

They are Nazis. KKK are the wrongdoers! Black people have been enslaved for generations and whipped by anti-blacks. They have done nothing wrong in the past but to be equally treated with all of the human races!

If I am correct their message is: "To restore white pride in america and treat blacks as second class citizens"

If a black man said the same thing for black people then how would the KKK feel? Ya they would probably need to flee via the Underground Railway. In anyone's point of view KKK can be immoral and and have an animalistic behaviour. I have lots of black, white, brown, yellow, blue (well i dun give a **** about the colour)...

KKK has mishapen the america and I still see blacks treated as second class citizens in most of the movies I watch. In fact go to their website kkk.com and they say that they are not wrong but have NO evidence to prove why white supermacy is wrong. If their only evidence is "America was ruled by white politics and should still be" that is absolutley an unaccpetable reason.

--Storkian 14:32, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

All pretty much true but I don't see why you feel you have to say so here. Did someone revert an edit you made to this article? If your edit was as emotionally charged as your comments here, then I am sorry but it is really not something you should be taking personally. — NRen2k5 13:09, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

• Hi. What suggestions do you have for improving the article? --jpgordon 14:34, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Truman References

This may be a stupid question, but why are there several references referring to former US President Truman, if he is not mentioned on the page? - JustinWick 08:12, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

If this question is not answered in 7 days, I'm going to remove the references, as they imply a connection between Truman and the KKK which the article does not substantiate. - JustinWick 08:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Birth of a Nation Quote

Note that the Misplaced Pages article on Woodrow Wilson questions the accuracy of the quotation about Birth of a Nation. Here is the quote from the Wilson article: "Wilson's words were repeatedly quoted in the film The Birth of a Nation, which has come under fire for racism. Thomas Dixon, author of the novel The Clansman upon which the film is based, was one of Wilson's graduate school classmates at Johns Hopkins in 1883-1884. Dixon arranged a special White House preview (this was the first time a film was shown in the White House) without telling Wilson what the film was about. Wilson most likely did not make the statement, "It is like writing history with lightning, my only regret is that it is all so terribly true." That was invented by a Hollywood press agent. In fact, Wilson felt he had been tricked by Dixon and publicly said he did not like the film; Wilson blocked its showing during the war." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.111.224.190 (talk) 00:50, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

Adam South Lynching Citation?

In "The Ku Klux Klan Today" section, there's the following claim:

Also recent attacks include the lynching of blaenavon schoolboy Adam South by known KKK member 'Silent' Bob Davies.

Do we have any citation? Qnonsense 17:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

If nobody minds, I'll delete the sentence in the next couple of days. I can still find nothing about it. Qnonsense 22:41, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The Ku Klux Klan Today

The last line of this section states:

"In 2006, several Klan members tried to beat the shit out of CapnCrack. He responded by killing their stupid asses and then fucking their white women."

Now, I'm no expert on the Klan and not a fan, but it marrs an otherwise good article by leaving this vandalism in. I would have done something about it myself, but it took me ten minutes to work out how to get this far to ask somebody else to do it. God know what would happen if I managed to get anywhere near the edit myself! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.158.129.65 (talk) 14:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC).

Reverting an article is simple. Click the History tab, select a clean edit before the vandalism, then Edit this Page, and save. Splintercellguy 05:31, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't call it a good article. The whole thing has a pro klan tone to it. They were nothing more than a bunch of un-educated terorists, cowards, and murderers.

Wilson and the second Klan

User Tony360X changed the third point in the bullet list from

The second Ku Klux Klan was founded with a new anti-immigrant and anti-Semitic agenda. The bulk of the founders were from an organization calling itself the Knights of Mary Phagan, and the new organization emulated the fictionalized version of the original Klan presented in The Birth of a Nation.

to

The Presidency of Woodrow Wilson gave rise to the second coming of the KKK. Wilson supported racial discrimination and brought it to the Federal Goverment. Hundreds of goverment administrations were segragated under Wilson's admnistration.

I've reverted the change. The original version was logically connected to the other two points in the bullet list, and to the text above them. The new version violates that logic. Also, the new version is extremely POVish, and assumes a hypothetical link between the institutionalization of racism in the federal government by Wilson and the creation of the second Klan. I don't think any such connection exists, and if it does, Tony360X hasn't offered any evidence of it. There certainly are connections between Wilson and the second Klan, via his endorsement of Birth of a Nation, but the main event being discussed in this bullet list isthe existence of the film itself, not Wilson's endorsement. If Tony360X feels that institutionalized racism in the federal government helped to lead to the creation of the second Klan, I feel he should (a) present some evidence, and (b) introduce it into the article in a way that doesn't violate the logic of the presentation.--Fashionslide 19:38, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Christian identity

I added to the lead that they are a Christian fundamentalist group, and sourced the statement. I hope this self-evident fact will not be controversial. --Striver - talk 18:58, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

So now the article presents the KKK first and foremost as a religious group. Is this accurate? The cited source says "some Christian fundamentalist beliefs" which suggests the first thing Misplaced Pages says about KKK should not be "religious group". Weregerbil 09:44, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

No, that is not correct. In fact, the reference you provided states that they only have "Some Christian fundamentalist beliefs, Christian Identity, white supremacy." It is misleading and POV to state that they are a Christian fundamentalist group.--Alabamaboy 15:48, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Why deleted?

Why were these cites deleted?

• Drabble, John, The FBI, COINTELPRO-WHITE HATE and the Decline of Ku Klux Klan Organizations in Mississippi, 1964-1971, Journal of Mississippi History, 66:4, (Winter 2004).
• Drabble, John, "To Preserve the Domestic Tranquility:” The FBI, COINTELPRO-WHITE HATE, and Political Discourse, 1964-1971," Journal of American Studies, 38:3 (August 2004): 297-328.

They represent recent research. Also, shouldn't the David Cunningham book be cited?--Cberlet 04:26, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Klan Members of Misplaced Pages

I suggest a list of Misplaced Pages Klan members or a userbox for proud members of the Klan. It is awful that this article has received the accolades that it has but then again this is Misplaced Pages.

Right... let's spread the hate everyone! *sarcasm* —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.40.190.172 (talk) 02:36, 9 January 2007 (UTC).

Old Political Parties

Should there be some mention in the article that even though the old KKK was mostly Democratic, the Democratic party of the time is in no way related to the party with the same name today? The way the article is right now it raises the impression that the current party was once associated with the KKK. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.40.190.172 (talk) 02:35, 9 January 2007 (UTC).

2005 Kingston, NY KKK Rally

I am unable to add this, so somebody might want to.

On November 19, 2005, renowned white supremacist, Hal Turner, rallied the Ku Klux Klan near Kingston High School, Kingston, NY in response to a brutal assault on a 14-year old white teen named Robert Hedrick by a 16-year old black teen named, Joseph L. Williams Jr,. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Darkicon (talk • contribs) 01:28, 13 January 2007 (UTC).

Homophobia?

Last I understood, phobia means "fear." Is this a biased term? Perhaps we should replace it with "anti-homosexuality" or something similar to remove the assumption that they all quiver in fear of the Gay Rights Movement. The Klan, love them or hate them, are pretty brave and unafraid. 207.43.79.22 18:01, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't join kkk

Don't joinK KKK I'm warning you!!!

KKK (racist ghosts) < Regular (non-racist) people

Ur ass is gonna get pewned just like a NAzi.. no offence. i dunno why ppl hate KKK, even my white friends do too. like come to my house right now and ppl i dunno will shoot u with a shot gun. :S:S:S:

And stop vandalising(writing in) the elevators in my building with kkk! that just proves that u guys are criminals!

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