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User Noteduck HOUNDING and violating AE civility warning

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Noteduck is a relatively new editor who opened their account in Dec 2020. They made a few edits with a prior account Spungo93. In a short period of time it became clear that Noteduck had civility issues related to edit warring and generally confrontational behavior issues. To this end I opened an AE related to Noteduck's behavior which resulted in a logged warning on 25 March (3 months ago)]. In the 3 months since Noteduck has engaged in a clear pattern of hounding and incivility with respect to my edits and myself.

HOUNDING:hounding on Misplaced Pages (or "wikihounding") is the singling out of one or more editors, joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. This is with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance, or distress to the other editor. Hounding usually involves following the target from place to place on Misplaced Pages.

Noteduck has made, at the time of this writing, ~185 edits since since receiving a warning on March 25th related to uncivil and problematic AP2 behavior. Of those over 50% have been about me in some capacity.

• Aprox 40 sandbox entries to a grievances list in violation of POLEMIC ]. After a repeated requests they blanked the list with an questionable edit summary ]. Since deletion they have continued to add to the list ].

Edit: this list of grievances was started on 24 Feb. POLEMIC notes grievance lists are only permitted when used for dispute resolution in a timely manner. Springee (talk) 15:15, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

• Followed me to a 3RRN where they were uninvolved to attack my credibility. ].
• Cold contacting other editors to campaign against me ], ], ], ], ].

• Engaging in topic areas where they weren't previously involved after I was involved and in a way that opposed my edit/arguments:
  • Odal rune RfC ]
  • Candace Ownes, restoring disputed material] by reverting my edit without participating in the on going talk page discussion ].
  • I edited the Wall Street Journal page 31 March, Noteduck finds the page 1 April ]
  • Tucker Carlson, reverting my removal of disputed content ] despite not being involved in any related talk page discussions

• Article talk page comments/edit summaries that focus on me as an editor rather than on edits
  • Earlier today ], "Frankly, I ask you to familiarize yourself with with Misplaced Pages:HOUND and WP:FILIBUSTER and ask yourself why you you continue to persist with challenging this exceedingly minor edit.", ] where they accuse me of having a double standard, and ] "respectfully, you've had considerable difficulty understanding WP:DUE and other policies in the past, including on this page,"

• Violated page's 1RR restriction when restoring the disputed edit above. 1st ] 2nd ]

• Personalizing disputes on talk pages - violation of AE warning regarding civility:
  • ], "This is an extremely worrying double standard on Springee's part, given that they insist on the most uncompromisingly high standards on sources they disagree with. If Springee finds it difficult to evaluate sources, it might be best to stand aside and listen more"
  • ], "Springee, you are currently facing a WP:AE hearing on the basis of tendentious editing. If you are having difficulties following editorial policy, it might be best to listen to others more rather than assume you know all the answers "

I've repeatedly warned Noteduck that this is a HOUNDING issue that needs to stop (closing AE admin's page ], Noteduck's page ]) with no success. I was hopeful when they recently focused on editing on topics like architecture it would mean I would be left alone. From my earliest interactions with Noteduck last winter I have tried to make it clear the editorial disagreements aren't personal disagreements. Personalizing disputes was one of the problems discussed at Noteducks AE. Despite trying to keep things civil it is clear they did not understand the prior AE warning. I am requesting either an AP2 topic ban or a 1-way interaction ban (I will voluntarily avoid interacting with them as well). Springee (talk) 13:38, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

• Support Topic ban from American politics, broadly construed. The bloody topic is enough of a permanent battlefield as it is, without the encouragement of new warriors to join the field. ——Serial 13:52, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
• Comment If it's a violation of an AE warning, shouldn't this be at AE as well? Black Kite (talk) 13:58, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

I've absolutely not only focused on Springee's edits: see my contributions page. My recent new pages include Architecture of Belarus, Land Captain (Russian Empire), Wellerman etc plus extensive work on Texas Revolution, We Will Always Love You and more. Given a shared interest in politics we've indeed both edited Andy Ngo, Douglas Murray, and others. I maintain that Springee is a repeat civil-POV pusher on conservative politics (which almost all their edits relate to) invariably rejecting unflattering material. Springee was before arb com just a month ago for adding material from deprecated Daily Caller to the Andy Ngo page. "Springee" gets 98 hits on the WP:AN archive. Many editors there share my concerns, and Springee's been sanctioned in the area of US politics before. I indeed prepared a WP:AN complaint in sandbox, as Springee did against me in Feb. My "double standard" comment came from Springee's persistence in wanting Fox's Ken LaCorte's "LaCorte News", which dlthewave observed was "obviously terrible", added to Andy Ngo in April {{{1}}} while rejecting material from Rolling Stone and Jacobin this month (plus BuzzFeed News and Bellingcat. Springee is often litigious and made a WP:AN complaint based on an incorrect interpretation of 1RR on the Jared Kushner page in April. I see this as a WP:BOOMERANG. Springee is quite fixated with challenging my edits and has 65 mentions on my talk page. I maintain that Springee's ongoing challenge to my short sentence on Andy Ngo is a WP:FILIBUSTER. The 1RR Springee has raised with dlthewave is trivial, as Dlthewave notes and I've reverted for now anyway. Springee knows I'm sensitive and afflicted by bipolar-2 and prone to being angry and frustrated in manic phases. Full disclosure: yesterday I launched an unrelated WP:AN action after getting highly aggressive and personal insults elsewhere, and can repeat details if necessary. I question Springee's decision to launch this complaint hours later and not wait for the other action to conclude Noteduck (talk) 14:29, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

• Noteduck, please indicate when you change your text. You have made significant changes to your reply above. As I noted below such changes may result in replies to your text that no longer make sense since the original text has been altered with items added/removed. Springee (talk) 23:30, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

It makes me uncomfortable when editors cite mental health conditions to explain their on-wiki behavior. A lot of people suffer from a lot of things; anyone who is not healthy enough to participate here should immediately log off. Levivich 14:57, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Noteduck, the recent AE against me was closed only with a comment to be more careful, not a logged warning.] Springee (talk) 15:15, 25 June 2021 (UTC) Edit: Noteduck removed the logged warning claim as part of a series of edits to their above statements]. The newly added claim I added "College Fix"] is an example of not getting the facts right. It was added by another editor ] just before my edit. Springee (talk) 15:53, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Noteduck is trying to sidetrack with claims of bias etc but it's clear they personalize disputes (that was found at the AE and recent examples can be seen here. Rather than argue that edits were not supported they accused Conan The Librarian of acting on personal opinion/bias ] and then proceed to put a warning on their user page ]. In the month after the AE closed (24 March to 24 April), Noteduck made 39 edits. All but 5 were related to me. That included reverting my edits at pages they were otherwise uninvolved with, adding to the POLEMIC list, and trying to recruit other editors to join them against me. This fixation has toned down but they still treat all disputes as personal to the point that (see below) they accused me of knowing they are biopolar and trying to use that against them! It's clear that when editors disagree with them Noteduck is taking it personally. This is the core problem and one of the findings of the AE that resulted in a warning. I'm asking for this to stop. Springee (talk) 12:09, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

• Comment I ended up here because I lurk at HiLo48's talk page which references an ANN which references this one. I've seen Springee at work and they are a careful, polite editor who stays on the high road even when confronted by rough behavior such as that described above. I find the above construction of trying to paint an incorrect picture regarding Springee very opposite to that very telling. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:20, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

North8000, what points in particular do you consider incorrect? –dlthewave ☎ 21:20, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Basically every (mis)characterization and claim about what every diff shows.North8000 (talk) 12:12, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

• Comment Some of these complaints really don't hold up to scrutiny, and the diffs don't all show what Springee says they do. I would urge folks to take a close look at the diffs in context before forming an opinion. Noteduck does good work in maintaining NPOV in controversial American Politics articles and I would hate to lose a productive editor from that topic. They do raise numerous valid concerns about Springee's editing (although perhaps they could find a better time and place to do so), and this complaint comes across as a fairly sad attempt to gain "first mover advantage" and silence an editor who they disagree with before they have the opportunity to present their evidence.
  • Regarding the sandbox concerns, it appears that Noteduck has been collecting evidence for an Arbcom case or similar, which is explicitly allowed per WP:POLEMIC: The compilation of factual evidence (diffs) in user subpages, for purposes such as preparing for a dispute resolution process, is permitted provided it will be used in a timely manner. Sure, the definition of "timely manner" is debatable, but the second diff presented by Springee has been up for all of three days which surely is well within bounds. I would also note that Springee maintained a similar collection of diffs in their sandbox for three months during which time they repeatedly asked Noteduck to remove theirs . Pot calling the kettle black? I'm also drawing a blank on how this edit summary (material addressing concerns of tendentious editing and civil-POV pushing put in a safe place. This does not mean the concern has gone away, and WP:ANI proceedings may eventually be required.) is in any way "questionable".
  • Tucker Carlson, The Wall Street Journal, Candace Owens and Odal (rune) have been in the news lately and are hot topics for editors involved in American politics; Noteduck and Springee are far from the only editors who showed up to these articles around the same time. I'm sorry but you'd have to be quite the conspiracy theorist or have particularly thin skin to think that someone who responds to the same RfC as you is trying to create "irritation, annoyance or distress".
  • The 1RR concern is a nothingburger. Springee raised the concern on my talk page (I thought they didn't like it when people did that?) and Noteduck promptly and politely self-reverted . –dlthewave ☎ 21:15, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
    • Dlthewave, several of your points are incorrect or misleading. I did in fact compile a sandbox list before filing an AE in February. I started the list on 29 Jan and filed the AE on 22 Feb, so just 1 month. I will grant that I didn't clean out my sandbox for two months but the AE was open for a month of that. You mention the 1RR violation. It was interesting how you handled what you thought was a 1RR on my part. You went fishing for sanctions.] Why weren't you as aggressive with Noteduck's clear violation? If Noteduck were editing a wide range of AP2 articles I would find your point about similar article interest to be more convincing. But articles like Odal (rune) are low traffic, Noteduck isn't making it to a lot of AP2 articles where I don't edit (and that's most). This also came at a time before they decided to edit about architecture and the vast majority of their edits were focused on me (at that time near 80% since the AE closure). Springee (talk) 23:10, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Oh, for fuck's sake, don't pretend that Odal was some backwater article. You know it was well-trafficked and heavily edited after the CPAC incident, and you're having a meltdown because someone responded to the same RFC that you did.

As I mentioned earlier, this is the first 1RR violation that I've seen from Noteduck, and they quickly apologized and self-reverted when it was pointed out. On the other hand you and I have had several disagreements over what constitutes a revert, so I asked an admin for advice and it seemed to me like the three of us had a nice productive discussion about it. Do you see it differently? –dlthewave ☎ 01:24, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Please keep it civil. During the first month after the AE closed (24 Mar-24 Apr) Noteduck edited 7 article/talk pages that could be seen as AP related (Dennis Prager, WSJ, CPAC, Odal rune, Candace Owens, Douglas Murray, Andy Ngo, Tucker Carlson, 2020 US presidential election, A People's History of the US). Of those I have no involvement with the last 2. Noteduck had no involvement with WSJ, CPAC, Odal, Owens and Carlson but was either opposing my RfC comments or reverting my edits. They did have prior involvement with Ngo, Prager and Murray. If their comments and edits weren't related to mine it would be easier to see this as just hitting the same topics.

Was it Noteduck's first brush with edit warring? Edit warring was one of the AE concerns. You also haven't made it clear why you were quick to warn me when you felt I crossed the line but you didn't even provide a curtesy notice to Noteduck that they had crossed the line. When you asked an admin it was clear that you were fishing for sanctions and made accusations of 1RR violations on my part which you have yet to support. Springee (talk) 02:09, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Back to the sandbox thing: If we give you the benefit of the doubt, you had a list of grievances up for a month and you're claiming that keeping a similar list for three days violates POLEMIC. This is one of those things that really feels like a double standard: It's hounding and uncivil when Noteduck does it, but we're expected to give quite a bit of leeway for your similar actions. If you're so concerned about it, I would hope you would remember to keep your own sandbox clean. –dlthewave ☎ 12:07, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

The grievance list was started by Noteduck 10 Feb. It's almost July and and still being added to. Do you consider 5 months timely? Blanking means little if they note that they can bring the blanked content back (the "blanked" content was added below) and if they keep adding new entries. You claim what I did was similar so lets compare. A specific list in less than a month, used at AE, never used again until blanked when the sandbox was cleaned a month after the AE closed. VS a continuous 5 month list, including many obvious errors, a portion was blanked but in a way that was easy to restore after multiple complaints that the list violated POLEMIC. The accumulation has continued even after several POLEMIC warnings. It's clear Noteduck has decided I've wronged them. To that end they are making a list, following me to continue their grievances at other articles, trying to drum up other editors for support (yourself included) and not trying to claim "but civil POV pusher" rather than reflect on their own actions. If they agree to stop personalizing disputes, MfD the list, and leave me alone all would be fine and we could close this right away. Springee (talk) 12:31, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

on the point about leeway: Springee has been editing for more than a decade and has far, far, far more editorial experience than I do. I've only been regularly editing since December 2020 (I have a handful of edits under an old account earlier in 2020). "Springee" gets 98 hits in the WP:AN archive; "Noteduck" gets 5. Springee should know the rules very well by now - and in fact, Springee does appear to know them when it suits their perspective. There's no reason for Springee to claim ignorance of editorial policy or expect preferential treatment Noteduck (talk) 12:42, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Springee, I can wipe my sandbox of references to you and any perceived breaches of policy now if you request. I can store it elsewhere if need be. However, you seem to be demanding that I never use my sandbox to build up any sort of allegation involving you again, which I think is pretty unreasonable (and indeed, a total WP:POTKETTLE situation). On the repeated HOUNDing allegations, please refer more to the specific parts of the policy you feel I am violating, and remember your many posts and 65 hits for "Springee" on my talk page don't suggest you are exactly non-adversarial. Per WP:HOUND: Correct use of an editor's history includes (but is not limited to) fixing unambiguous errors or violations of Misplaced Pages policy, or correcting related problems on multiple articles. In fact, such practices are recommended both for Recent changes patrol and WikiProject Spam. I believe that this is what I've been doing. You've recently pinged me and reverted my edits on the Andy Ngo page, dragging me away from other Misplaced Pages projects I enjoy much more: see Architecture of Belarus and Texas Revolution Noteduck (talk) 12:54, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

And again an inaccurate telling. I was consolidating citations per a talk page discussion ]. As part of that I noted questionable claims that included OR ]]. Despite your last involvement with the article being in May, you quickly reverted my removal of the OR ]] just 1 hour later. I pinged you because I went to the talk page to discuss this ]. I will note that you edit warred not with me but with Volteer1 who reverted your restorations. You claim I was targeting your edits, I agree you originally added the OR but that was on 22 Feb. I wasn't aware you were the original editor at the time I removed it. Mischaracterizing and personalizing these disputes is a big issue here. Springee (talk) 13:37, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Just re the ping: sorry, I'm incredibly busy right now. I know I'm related to this stuff, and your retelling looks accurate at a glance, but I'll chime in properly a bit later when I have time. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 14:43, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

• An earlier encounter between User:Noteduck and User:Springee was a lengthy mediation about five months ago at DRN, Misplaced Pages:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_201#PragerU. My observations were that these two editors disagreed on content, and that Noteduck was verbose (which is common and unhelpful at DRN). It was a difficult content dispute that ended up as a lengthy RFC that was really six RFCs rolled into one. All of the parties in the dispute were civil, which, like accuracy, is a duty rather than a virtue. It was preceded by Noteduck filing a Request for Arbitration that the arbitrators and I agreed should go to DRN. I haven't been involved with subsequent interaction between Noteduck and Springee. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:54, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Regarding the sandbox, from the content blanked in Special:Diff/1029281530, pasted below. The user accumulated a large number of grievances, mostly against Springee (talk · contribs). I note that some of the sources mentioned, such as CNN, are generally considered to be reliable, so they do have legitimate concerns about Springee. Their current revision says that they think it is Springee, not themselves, who should be AP2 topic-banned (esp. in relation to Andy Ngo). But, I think this warrants an interaction ban between the users as well. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:31, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

• The problem with long lists of diffs is the reason things were reverted is often lost. Noteduck's records aren't very accurate either. Consider above where they accuse me of adding "Collegefix" as a source even though that was added by a different editor. Sometimes the removal of a reliable source from an article is not related to it being a RS but DUE, WP:V, specific phrasing etc. Recently it was suggested that I removed Rolling Stones from the Andy Ngo article. It wasn't true. I removed a specific claim that failed Wp:V and the redundant citation associated with it. The fact that Noteduck has been creating such a long list over so many months supports my POLEMIC concern. The long list says I violated my self imposed 1RR rule twice yet fails to note once was to revert an IP editor, the other was 7 March, where I reverted myself because I didn't include an edit summary . Springee (talk) 02:19, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

• dc̄ I absolutely contend that there is enough evidence of such a long and egregious history of civil-POV pushing to launch a WP:ANI action against Springee, with the main difficulty being the staggering number of potentially relevant diffs. dlthewave I share your frustration that Springee's characterisation of the Odal rune page as "low-traffic" is typical of Springee's selective recall and application of policy. Similarly, my recent uptick in engagement on the Andy Ngo page was in response to Springee on 18 June making an unjustified wholesale revert (although I've repeatedly reminded them about WP:ROWN) of material I had added sometime earlier. I don't find Ngo particularly edifying and recently have spent the vast majority of my time working on more interesting things like the Texas Revolution and a bunch of Russia-related topics in my sandbox. As dlthewave notes I believe Springee's clear motive here is seeking "first mover advantage" they can leverage as a WP:BOOMERANG that distracts from their own actions. As course, as per WP:BOOMERANG: There is sometimes a belief that, if someone's perceived misbehavior is reported at a noticeboard, the discussion can only focus on the original complaint, and turning the discussion around to discuss the misbehavior of the original reporter is "changing the subject" and therefore not allowed. However, that just isn't the case. Anyone who participated in the dispute or discussions might find their actions under scrutiny. Noteduck (talk) 01:43, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

whoops, on the extremely trivial point about who added the "College Fix", it wasn't Springee. I still think it's inexplicable that you added a point about Andy Ngo being purportedly threatened by left-wing protestors on the basis of the sources "Katu" and "College Fix" without questioning their reliability, while RS's more critical of Ngo have been repeatedly challenged and reverted. Yes, you did remove material from Rolling Stone from Ngo's page, just this month. Noteduck (talk) 02:44, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

And this is why we have to look at the details because you are still getting things wrong left and right. First, these edits were done after starting a talk page discussion ]. Second, I didn't add any of the sources. The edit you link to is one where I changed the language to match that from the parent article. Nothing more. If you want to complain about those sources why don't you talk to the editor who added them? As for Rolling Stone, you are conflating two arguments. I was talking about being accused of removing a source (in the past, not this instance) when I only removed a redundant example of the source. A diff that only looks at the one edit might miss that the removed source was redundant. As for the Rolling Stones material you reference, the issue was it didn't pass Wp:V. The source is still in the article but the specific claim was OR. Springee (talk) 02:58, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Proposal 1: Two-Way Interaction Ban

This is another case of two editors who do not like each other. I propose a two-way interaction ban between User:Noteduck and User:Springee with only the usual exceptions. Since they both edit in the area of American politics, this will inconvenience both of them. Antagonism between editors should be inconvenient to both editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:36, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:36, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose I have nothing personally against Noteduck. I do not seek to interact with them. If they agree to AGF I'm happy to do the same. I do not feel my ability to edit articles where I have long been involved should be restricted due to Notrduck's logged uncivil behavior. As North8000 said, I understand AP2 can be confrontational so I take the high road. Springee (talk) 15:55, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose as not the solution to this problem. This isn't about two editors not liking each other. Or rather, it's about more than that. I mean every ANI report involves two or more editors not liking each other. If we handed out IBANs for that, we'd all be IBANed. The problem here is disruption, and disruptive editors should just be removed from the project altogether. Or at least the topic area. We've had enough noticeboard drama about this (by my count: an arbcom request, a DRN, at least one AN, at least one ANI, and that's probably not everything). Either there is a real problem here or someone is really crying wolf. Either way, an IBAN is not the solution. (Also, no one is going to use DRN if the neutral later proposes sanctions against the participants.) For my part, I don't see a case being made yet by anyone for sanctions against anyone else, mostly because there are so many false positive diffs being presented. So if anyone reading this thinks this thread should end with action, I'd suggest posting your best diffs and quotes, and really making a clear and brief argument about what is needed and why. Levivich 16:10, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose - the problem is not Springee or two-way interaction, it is WP:HOUNDING by Noteduck which is a policy vio and it needs immediate attention by an admin. This is unacceptable behavior. Hounding violates the UCoC, Section 3.1 Harassment - it is a very serious behavioral issue, and no editor deserves to be hounded, on or off WP. Atsme 💬 📧 17:30, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose This mis-characterizes the situation. Springee has consistently taken the careful, polite high road. And they came here for relief from hounding. Maybe just a warning to Noteduck regarding the topic at hand would be sufficient to resolve this. North8000 (talk) 18:32, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose I appreciate Robert McClenon's work on resolving this. However I think the problem is asymmetric here, despite this litigious WP:BOOMERANG by Springee. Again, if allegations of WP:HOUND are being made, specific references to the text of the policy should be made, rather than broad-brush claims. I recommend looking through both mine and Springee's contribution pages and see the contrast between an editor who has added constructively to a broad range of topics, and one with a dogged focus on contesting material on pages related to right-wing politics Noteduck (talk) 23:20, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
• Withdraw - I am willing to withdraw this proposal. Will someone else propose something else? Robert McClenon (talk) 21:44, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
• Re-open and support - Robert McClenon has withdrawn this proposal, but I'd like to repropose it. There is a problem that has to be solved here, and I think this proposal solves it better than any other, and specifically better than any one-sided sanction against Noteduck. Loki (talk) 06:18, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support The sandbox demonstrates tendentious behavior by Noteduck toward Springee, and an overview of User talk:Noteduck and its edit history shows Springee repeatedly complaining about Noteduck's edits and fighting between the users. Out of 145 edits to this user talk, Noteduck themselves made 46 and Springee made 44, or about 1/3 each of the entire edit history. A third opinion will be needed to determine if either user's edits about Andy Ngo are problematic, which would warrant a topic ban from this BLP or post-1992 American politics more broadly. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 18:37, 7 July 2021 (UTC) 18:44, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

LaundryPizza03 I'd be happy for an uninvolved party to look at Springee's edits on Andy Ngo, though it needs to be said that these are just part of a much larger pattern of blocking unflattering material on pages related to right-wing politics, particularly through the relentless and protracted contestation of material on talk pages. Note that Springee has made 521 edits on Talk:Andy Ngo (16.64% of ALL edits made to the page) Noteduck (talk) 01:21, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose - the two don't want it, the proposer withdrew it, and the problem is Noteduck, not Springee - there should be no false equivalence here. I say more below. Crossroads 05:32, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Proposal #2

Enough has been seen and reviewed to at least raise concern about WP:hounding, WP:Battleground and against-WP:civility behavior by Noteduck particularly with respect to Springee. Noteduck is warned to avoid those types of behaviors. North8000 (talk) 14:25, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

I would support this or as an alternative I would accept a MfD Noteduck's sandbox with an understanding they may keep the content not related to me. This is a grievance list and a clear violation of POLEMIC. This is especially true since many of the claims are false if anyone actually looks at the diffs in question. Springee (talk) 01:19, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

If you'd like to see it deleted, why don't you nominate it for MfD yourself? –dlthewave ☎ 12:21, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

I considered that but if we decide to MfD here it will be easier to ensure it is completed. Springee (talk) 10:44, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

• Comment - Looking at the discussion above, I'm not sure there's agreement that Noteduck's actions merit a warning or even meet the criteria for those issues. It may be wise to wait for more input from uninvolved editors, preferably admins, before making further proposals to close. –dlthewave ☎ 12:16, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support as proposer As the mildest remedy that has a reasonably good chance at resolving the situation. I didn't fully understand Springee's response/post. But they are referring to work there by Noteduck that appears to be aimed at using the system to "get" someone vs. just to solve an issue, would agree that that should be deleted. North8000 (talk) 13:05, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support I've had limited access recently and will for a while longer. I think it's clear that Noteduck has been campaigning against me (see the diffs showing them contacting other editors out of the blue and in cases which they weren't previously involved). The POLEMIC list started in Feb is also a problem. Yes, they blanked it but then started it right back up so it never went away and as the collapsed section below shows, it's still very accessible. This list is a serious problem when editors presume it was in any way shape or form reliably collected. In addition to the fact that most examples don't contain context, they also have a lot of just plain wrong claims (saying sources were removed in cases where I was moving blocks of text, saying I violated 1RR when I self reverted then restored to correct my edit note etc). Finally, trying to bring being bipolar into this! Levivich is right, if a this is a problem that results in confrontational behavior then the editor should stay out of confrontational areas. Springee (talk) 10:44, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
• Comment not particularly sensitive Springee. At any rate, Springee seems to want an asymmetric rule that I can't collect material in my sandbox for use in WP:AN complaints. As we've already observed, this is a total double standard. I'll certainly be more mindful about the "timely" requirement of the policy but surely this is an important part of the sandbox function, especially for the sake of transparency about upcoming complaints. One glance at my sandbox reveals that the large majority does not focus on Springee but on my various pet projects to improve Wiki. I just made Farmers or Hunter-Gatherers? The Dark Emu Debate btw and I'm quite happy with it Noteduck (talk) 07:06, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

There is no double standard. You have maintained a grievance list since February. That is only allowed if the contents are to be used in a timely fashion which you have not done. It doesn't matter if only 1% of the list is a POLEMIC, 0% is the upper limit. The fact that you deleted the list on June 19 means nothing if you show that you have learned nothing and started a new one. Springee (talk) 09:28, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

I guess I'm a bit confused here, was Noteduck not supposed to start a new list (as new issues emerged) after deleting the previous one? –dlthewave ☎ 13:28, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this is helpful, but I think that the "timely" part serves to make a distinction between complaints to try to resolve a current problem vs longer term constructions to try to "get" (deprecate or remove) an editor or just do battle with an editor. And the latter is presumably a reason for the polemic rule, particularly against another editor. Perhaps, in addition to the proposed gentle warning, if Noteduck could (you) agree to be extra careful and mindful of these objectives? North8000 (talk) 12:42, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

I think that is a good distinction. A month is reasonable period of time to collect diffs but if this list is still here mid July it will be a clear POLEMIC and now Noteduck would be clearly warned about the policy. Springee (talk) 18:10, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

well yes, I can certainly aim to keep material in my sandbox for no more than a month in line with the "timely" language of the policy. The material I gathered was not intended to be part of some aimless, vague polemic but rather the concrete basis for a WP:AN complaint. The sandbox is a convenient place to gather such evidence, which I'm sure is why you've used it for the same reason Springee Noteduck (talk) 01:50, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Springee, just observing an example from the last couple of days - I'd work on this pattern of wholesale reverts, especially since other editors have raised concerns about your editing related to right-wing politics. I've reminded you of WP:ROWN multiple times, and with more than a decade of experience I'm sure you know it well too. You correctly note that this material was about Kirk, not TPUSA, so doesn't belong on the latter's page. Why not move this material to the Charlie Kirk (activist) page, or if you think the material does not belong on Kirk's page either, take it the Kirk talk page or the editor in question's talk page? Noteduck (talk) 04:24, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

If timely is your intent why gave you been collecting grievances for 5 months with no action? I'm glad you are able to recognize that the content I removed from TPUSA does not belong on the page. I'm certainly not obligated to try to make a case for the content to be DUE on another page which is what you are asking me to do. Springee (talk) 05:17, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Springee I'm merely recommending that given your experience and your focus on pages related to TPUSA and proximate topics, you could assist less experienced editors. I see you have again reverted the eight word sentence I added to Andy Ngo, though your rebuttals haven't been substantive. You initially referred to WP:OR, and now WP:V, without specifying what part of either policy you are grounding your argument in. I recommend basing any objections to new edits in the specific language of editorial policy rather than a broad-brush rejection Noteduck (talk) 05:55, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

I and several other experienced editors did try to help you early on. Our efforts were met with hostility to the point that an AE was filled against you and you were formally warned. The Ngo material has been reverted by two editors and fails WP:V. The ONUS is on you to correct the problem. That you restored the same content you violated 1RR to add further shows that you didn't take your logged warning to heart. Springee (talk)`

Springee recently launched an action in Misplaced Pages:No original research/Noticeboard in relation to my aforementioned short 14-word sentence. They also are waging an ongoing fight on Talk:Andy Ngo to contest this same material. Noteduck.

Mis-characterizations aside, those are good examples of the Wikipedian, polite, and content-focused way to deal with content questions/disputes. North8000 (talk) 11:36, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

A gentle piece of advice to Springee btw: I recommend aiming to diversify your interest base beyond right-wing political pages like Andy Ngo ("Springee" gets 600+ hits in the page archives), whoops strike through Charlie Kirk etc. I had it on the brain because of the point about TPUSA above - please don't cherry-pick. As I noted in the earlier dispute in April, based on samples of around ~1000 of your recent edits, at times 95%+ have related to conservative politics-related pages. I've pivoted away and have found creating diverse and original content elsewhere much more satisfying (talk) Noteduck (talk) 03:54, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Interesting... let's see, how many edits do I have to the Charlie Kirk page... ]. It looks like zero. I'm glad to see you have found other areas to focus on. Hopefully that will mean you no longer need your POLEMIC violating list nor will need to hound me or attack me. That would be great. Springee (talk) 04:04, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

In response to your edit above], it is always a good idea to have your facts correct before lobbing criticisms. That is one of the issues with your POLEMIC grievance list. The fact that it violates POLEMIC is another. Springee (talk) 04:19, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

• Conditional support - a first time warning is customary for new editors, but in this case, it is overly gracious, especially considering Noteduck's comment just above Springee's which begins with "A gentle piece of advice to Springee", and their noting that 95% of Springee's edits are to conservative politics. Wow - that statement provides some pretty big evidence of HOUNDING. Why should any editor care, other than a POV pusher, if 100% of Springee's edits are to conservative politics? Those are the articles that need attention because of strong POV pushing, and left-leaning news media that dominates the echo chamber, not to mention an issue of noncompliance with RECENTISM and NOTNEWS; all of which means there is typically more work to do on those articles. We leave our biases at login. WP is a collaborative project - we don't "advise" other editors whose views oppose our own, especially veteran editors, where they should or shouldn't edit. Admins are the ones who make that decision when there's proven disruption, and right now the only disruption I'm seeing is coming from Noteduck. I commend Springee for exercising such patience. Atsme 💬 📧 10:45, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Atsme, how do you feel about Springee's similar assessment: Noteduck has made, at the time of this writing, ~185 edits since since receiving a warning on March 25th related to uncivil and problematic AP2 behavior. Of those over 50% have been about me in some capacity, followed by a detailed analysis of Noteduck's edits? Why is it OK for Springee to calculate percentages of where Noteduck has been editing, but when Noteduck does the same thing it's considered hounding? –dlthewave ☎ 05:16, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi, Dlthewave - for the sake of brevity, Noteduck's comments are political in nature, whereas Springee is being hounded and is expected to provide evidence of same. Atsme 💬 📧 11:13, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

As you note I think that a close review of this ANI thread itself says a lot about the situation. I'm not sure if you meant that my proposal #2 was too mild but for better or worse that's sort of how I roll. Perhaps a one way interaction ban would have been a better proposal to give decisive relief to Springee and be a stronger "we really mean it" regarding battleground mentality towards another editor. But the warning remains as the alternative that I support. And Springee themself supported it and so they likely feel that it is sufficient, at least at this "give it a try" stage. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 12:51, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure what part of WP:HOUND would proscribe "a gentle piece of advice" or how it displays a battleground mentality. I offered what I see as sound advice based on my experience that it's much more fulfilling to create pages and make extensive original contributions to Wiki rather than have to spend lengthy amounts of time on talk pages, which is where contentious political articles often end up. Springee has certainly aimed to correct perceived errors and issues reminders of policy when they've seen fit, sometimes in quite strident terms, on my talk page (see User talk:Noteduck). I've been distracted and busy working on unrelated projects, but I've wiped the perceived breaches I noted, which made up a small portion of my sandbox, in a good-faith compliance with Springee's request. I hadn't been alerted to the “timely manner” requirement prior to this ANI notice but I'm fine with interpreting it as one month and not leave material for policy complaints in my sandbox for longer than this. This is by no means a repudiation of any of these points. I think that while I don't agree at all with the basis of this WP:ANI notice I've engaged in a constructive and good-faith manner Noteduck (talk) 05:08, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

The first you heard about it? Why didn't you understand the problem when I warned you about POLEMIC on 10 April ] and then again on 25 May ]. It was only on 19 June that a 3rd warning finally resulted in you removing the content. Why did it take two months? Certainly you should have been aware of the timeliness requirement the first time I provided a POLEMIC link in the warning. Springee (talk) 10:53, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Springee none of your posts on my page referred to the timely manner requirement. Noteduck (talk) 12:44, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

That makes your failure to remove even worse. The first time I just said it violated POLEMIC. You didn't bother to follow up and check so that's on you. Either way, you were informed. The second time I included this part, "Material that can be viewed as attacking other editors, including the recording of perceived flaws.". So you just decided to ignore the whole thing since the only reason to keep such a list would have to fall under the timely exception. If you weren't aware of it, after being told where to look, what more do you want. It's clear you were keeping the list despite knowing it was against user talk page guidelines. Springee (talk) 14:31, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

That's not the best representation of the facts. Having started to regularly edit Wiki in December 2020, I had of course seen other editors use their sandboxes to assemble ANI complaints and discuss the use of sandboxes for this purpose, and in fact on 10 February I made an enquiry on your talk page about material you were preparing in sandbox for a complaint against me (though it was quickly blanked). You did indeed quote WP:POLEMIC in a post on my talk page on 25 May, specifically the passage warning against Example text For context, the very next sentence of WP:POLEMIC, in the same dot point, reads: "The compilation of factual evidence (diffs) in user subpages, for purposes such as preparing for a dispute resolution process, is permitted provided it will be used in a timely manner." Why omit this, especially given that your main objection here appears to be related to the timely manner requirement? On 25 June you referred to the specific phrase timely manner in this complaint. It seems unduly to think I deserve sanctions based on not heeding specific points of editorial policy Noteduck (talk) 07:25, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose As someone who's often edited on American political topics where both Springee and Noteduck were participating I have never seen a dispute between them that I honestly felt was Noteduck's fault to begin with. This is not to say that Noteduck has been a perfect editor, but that I strongly oppose any one-sided sanction against Noteduck. For what it's worth, I would support the interaction ban above or even a one-way interaction ban against Springee: I think that there's a far better case to be made for Springee hounding Noteduck than vice-versa. Loki (talk) 06:34, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Are you saying this because you can think of any actual examples or just because you see this as a tactical move? Noteduck was warned about civility and edit warring at AE. Did other editors (myself included) start those problems? Springee (talk) 10:53, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Nothing says "battleground mentality" like speculating about "tactical moves". Please, try to assume good faith. –dlthewave ☎ 11:54, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

struck Springee (talk) 14:33, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Loki, Springee has given pretty substantial examples of hounding. Perhaps you could give some to support your assertion of hounding by Springee?North8000 (talk) 13:26, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Oh certainly. Of the 37 sections on Noteduck's talk page, 11, or roughly a third, are sections started by Springee accusing Noteduck of bad behavior: , , , , , , , , , , . When these accusations have been actually reported to admins, none of them so far have resulted in sanctions for Noteduck more serious than one unenthusiastic warning once. Loki (talk) 03:21, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

There have only been two trips to the notice board, the AE that resulted in a warning and this one. If you look, many are good faith efforts to help a new editor learn the ropes. Others are for the exact behaviors that resulted in a logged warning. It's unfortunate that you and Dlthewave are condoning vs discouraging such behaviors. Even if you think Noteduck hasn't crossed a sanctionable line why encourage it? Springee (talk) 10:12, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

LokiTheLiar, that's not hounding. North8000 (talk) 14:02, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Thank you Loki and dlthewave for helping to set the record straight here. A search for edits made by Springee in my talk page history reveals 44 edits by Springee, or more than 30% of all edits in the page's history. A search of Springee's talk page history shows 13 edits by Noteduck (though all have since been wiped). This is hardly commensurate with the accusation of one-way, targeted WP:HOUNDING. Springee hasn't explained how they arrived at the point that "over 50% of Noteduck's edits since 25 March have been about me 'in some capacity'" , which they will need to clarify, and again I invite editors to look at the diversity of the contributions in my edit history and sandbox. Springee's stated desire to avoid interacting with me is hardly commensurate with their recent actions on the Andy Ngo talk page, where they:

• on 18 June Springee pinged me in a subheading I had no prior involvement in, having reverted a not prominent, 14-word short sentence I had added to a body paragraph on Ngo's page
• continued to contest this short sentence at length on Ngo's talk page for close to another two weeks, including repeatedly interacting with me without apparent distress
• on 25 June took this same short sentence to the no original research noticeboard, on the basis that it purportedly failed WP:V requirements, only for other uninvolved editors to quickly affirm my longstanding interpretation of the contested sentence..

Given the outcome of the WP:NORN discussion they launched, I hope Springee will be restoring the material. As I've noted above, I did not receive a specific reference to the point about assembling complaints in the sandbox being done in a timely manner from Springee, and would have applied the policy (though its wording doesn't lay out precise instructions for how to adhere to it) as best I could had I known. I'm happy to field any further questions Noteduck (talk) 07:39, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Why? There is not a consensus of support and there are concerns about weight for such a claim. Springee (talk) 10:12, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

do you not agree that the counter-arguments have been quite comprehensively refuted? Noteduck (talk) 23:09, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

A review of this ANI thread alone says much about the situation. Seeking to resolve a situation vs. seeking to deprecate an editor. North8000 (talk) 13:42, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support per arguments of above support !votes, and how is this still open and unresolved? Closing with a warning and move on sounds reasonable. I also agree that the "evidence of hounding by Springee" above is not evidence of hounding. Levivich 18:43, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
• Prefer topic ban for Noteduck, support warning if not. Their logged warning from March says they need to abide to policies while editing in the topic area of American politics, and they have not been doing so regarding WP:HOUND and WP:DISRUPTIVE. The time for warnings is past; it is time for more than a slap on the wrist. (Closer: Note that Serial supported a topic ban also right after Springee's opening.) It's not like bans can't be appealed in the future anyway. It is clear from the above, both the evidence and from their own words, that they persistently hound Springee and are WP:NOTHERE to encyclopedically and neutrally portray American politics, but rather, to right great wrongs and portray conservatives as negatively as possible. That is exemplified by their own statement above: A gentle piece of advice to Springee btw: I recommend aiming to diversify your interest base beyond right-wing political pages... Only a POV pusher and hounder would say that. If this is what they say openly at ANI, I can only imagine what these article talk pages (many of them being BLPs!) are like. This crusade is WP:NOT what Misplaced Pages is for; it is the epitome of tendentious editing. A Misplaced Pages that is nothing but hit pieces on the right will do nothing but preach to the choir on the left, anyway. The topic area in no way benefits from these POV pushers that work their way in occasionally. Whether many editors agree with the POV being pushed is no grounds for leniency. Noteduck themselves states above, I've pivoted away and have found creating diverse and original content elsewhere much more satisfying, so let's help them stay away from this topic area. Crossroads 05:21, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose in part due to the vagueness of the proposal; what exactly does a warning to avoid behaviors described by essays we've all seen actually amount to, particularly when the dispute is over who is hounding whom? In my general experience, a significant fraction of what gets described as "hounding" ends up being clashing opinions on areas of shared interest, exacerbated by a kind of passive aggression for which Misplaced Pages is unluckily fertile ground. I'm not sure that isn't the case here. (For example, on the face of it, "try working in a different topic area for a little while" can actually be darn good advice. I've given it to myself plenty of times. What matters is the tone in which it is said, as it were.) XOR'easter (talk) 16:37, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

For better or worse, it was deliberately a soft proposal, including avoiding an explicit finding of hounding behavior while having a good chance of providing the relief that is owed to Springee. Ifr that doesn't work, more concrete explicit findings and direction could be provided at that point.North8000 (talk) 19:57, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Suppose an ANI report had been opened on an editor who was adding labels to pages on figures like, say, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez based on right-wing opinion outlets, telling their opponent to edit pages other than "left-wing" pages and following that editor around, talking about them all the time, and keeping a polemic about them. Would we be seeing the same sort of replies here? I suspect not. They'd probably be indeffed. Crossroads 20:57, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support warning only - I think Noteduck is being too combative towards Springee. If this continues, we can move on to IBAN. Hopefully that will not be needed. starship.paint (exalt) 15:21, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose Experienced editors have the capacity to teach others, at times deliberately and directly with intentional instruction . . . and at other times unwittingly and indirectly by leading through their own example. A sandbox grievance list was first initiated by user Springee against user Noteduck on January 25, 2021 Diff. One month later, Noteduck created their own sandbox grievance list Diff - a reasonable development given the circumstances. These editors clearly see things differently yet they share an interest in multiple topics. The observation made by XOReaster that "a significant fraction of what gets described as "hounding" ends up being clashing opinions on areas of shared interest" applies here. Cedar777 (talk) 14:52, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Overview of recent discussions at Talk:Andy Ngo

@Noteduck: Very well then. Looking at the most recent edits on Talk:Andy Ngo, I see that Springee keeps getting into content disputes.

• On 17 May, they disputed whether content added by Cedar777 (talk · contribs) about Don't Shoot Portland was WP:DUE for Andy Ngo. JzG (talk · contribs) stepped in and agreed with Cedar777's addition of the content. It's still in the article.
• On 10 June, you contested the removal of content by Thomas Meng (talk · contribs), which he alleged to be biased and poorly sourced. That's when Springee rebutted your claim, arguing that the BuzzFeed News piece in question is biased and that the statement might have been WP:UNDUE as well. You also contested some commentary by third parties about Thomas Meng (talk · contribs), again insisting that the repeatedly used term opinion is a misnomer in this discussion. The statement cited to the BFN piece is still in the article.
• On that same day, Springee argued with Cedar777 over an edit by Meng that condensed several citations to the same source, per WP:OVERCITE. Then, they mentioned out of the blue that they reverted one of your edits that allegedly misrepresented the sources cited and was undue. Another argument ensues on the talk page, this time a bit longer and with more involved parties. Ultimately, Springee won the dispute.
• A discussion on 17 June about covering a recent attack against Ngo, where Springee was involed. They also challenged an alleged WP:SYNTH addition by SomerIsland (talk · contribs), but then flip-flopped.
• A discussion on 19 June where neither you nor Springee was involved, apart from an aside by the latter about naming references.
• A discussion on 21 June about an ambiguous sentence. Springee definitely had a good point to raise, and there was little or no dispute.
• A discussion began on 30 June about the weasel word widely as used in a statement about RS consensus. You dropped in and changed the word to frequently . This word change was supported by other participants, apart from Springee, before TomReaan90 (talk · contribs) pivoted the discussion to a conversation about Al Jazeera and the Iraq War.
• That was the last discussion involving you, but it looks like subsequent discussions involving Springee are good-faith and they do not fight with anyone else.

In summary, Springee is editing Talk:Andy Ngo a lot because they are heavily involved in good-faith edits and discussions regarding the article. So it's clear that Springee's edits are unproblematic apart from their interactions with you, although I don't have enough evidence to evaluate your edits about Ngo. Maybe someone can evaluate the archives, but I need to go to bed now. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 04:26, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Feel free to look at my Ngo edits LaundryPizza03. I'd refer to diffs like this one as proof of my commitment to rigorously evaluating evidence on the page. It's necessary to see this all in the context of how Springee fights at length to get flattering sources added to Ngo's page, no matter how feeble.

• For example, take Springee's extended contestation in April in favour of restoring material from "Lacorte News" (apparently an obscure source tied to Fox alum Ken LaCorte). Springee was very lucky to avoid a topic ban later in April after an action brought by User:Dlthewave, brought about after Springee made a protracted attempt in March-April to get material from the deprecated Daily Caller and Daily Signal included on Ngo's page. Although Springee had reverted material from the Daily Signal from Ngo's page in February on the (correct) basis that it wasn't an RS, in March and April they defended Daily Signal's reliability on Ngo while rejecting WP:GREL-listed The Intercept, as well as turning to other weak sources like Daily Wire, The Western Journal, and a celebrity gossip site called "Meaww" to buttress their LaCorte News point. On 25 May there were happy to treat a website called "Katu", and the very non-impartial The College Fix as a reliable account of a BLM protest reported on by Ngo. With sources like these, Springee has been hyper-permissive and emphasized context, while warning against rejecting sources outright.
• Compare this to the scrutiny they have subjected a recent 14-word sentence sourced to Rolling Stone and Jacobin (magazine) to: reverting it on 18 June, extensively challenging it on the Ngo talk page on the frankly, clearly incorrect basis that the Rolling Stone source didn't support the claim in the sentence, opening a WP:NORN discussion on the sentence on 25 June, and after their argument was comprehensively rejected, now maintaining the material is undue. See also these extended challenges (both from April alone) Springee made to The Intercept and Bellingcat, which Springee took to WP:RSN to see their point be quickly rebuffed having contested Bellingcat content since November 2020, plus objecting to a thorough and methodical Buzzfeed News piece in June. Look at the stringency of Springee's evidentiary standards for Bellingcat and Daily Dot compared with some of the above-mentioned obscure (and weak) sources more flattering to Ngo.

Go further back and you see block reverts of the SPLC, Daily Beast, Columbia Journalism Review, The Guardian,, Salon (magazine) and Rolling Stone, Washington Post and Los Angeles Times, Seattle Times,, BuzzFeed News Daily Dot,, Willamette Week The Oregonian, the Los Angeles Times - by no means a complete list. I've repeatedly reminded Springee of WP:ROWN without success. Springee often rejects new edits by invoking BLP, or employs an "injunction": block reverting an edit, starting a talk page discussion, and proceeding to resist any change at length on the talk page, while claiming there's no consensus for change. The clear, repeated pattern is that Springee fights hard to include sources seen to be flattering to Ngo, no matter how feeble, while those perceived as unflattering, even if high quality, are subject to impossibly high standards. I've seen them follow this same edit pattern across a range of political topics, and am happy to provide more diffs on request Noteduck (talk) 08:27, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

And this is more of the same falsehoods. What you call an "extended fight" was a civil and not long talk page discussion where Springee was on the same side as numerous other editors. The Daily Caller and Daily Signal stuff was dismissed already at AE. Meaww was only mentioned as a left-leaning source and alongside The Oregonian. He's right about Rolling Stone and Jacobin. The former is an entertainment magazine, not a serious news outlet, and does not have any pretenses of objectivity; the latter is openly opinionated and ideological for socialism. He's well within his rights on the rest, since context, due weight, and other policies matter, and discussion and being careful are very important on a WP:BLP. Many of those outlets are also inappropriate for political topics as they are very ideological and/or are not serious mainstream news sources that aim for objectivity, namely the Daily Beast, Salon, Willamette Week, and the Daily Dot. The only problem here is when editors such as yourself push for such glorified group blogs as sources on a BLP and then harass editors who disagree. Time to put a stop to it. Crossroads 22:25, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Addendum: As shown below, Noteduck revised their comment after I replied; the version I replied to is here. Crossroads 20:37, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Crossroads, I disagree that the Daily Caller/Daily Signal issue was "dismissed" at AE. It was in fact closed with a reminder to Springee to "Please be more careful with unreliable/deprecated sources" along with a RS/verifiability reminder to the only admin who supported his point of view. I share Noteduck's valid concern that Springee has been challenging clearly reliable sources as biased while at the same time promoting sources that are so unreliable that they've been deprecated. Frankly I don't see how a good-faith editor can challenge Jacobin as too biased to use, while pushing for inclusion of a Daily Caller cite. –dlthewave ☎ 19:11, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

"Pushing for inclusion of a Daily Caller cite" is a grossly misleading picture of what happened; the clarification and pushback on your AE report is explained there and I'm not relitigating it. Also, deprecation "is not a blanket retroactive "ban" on using the source in absolutely every situation", though one wouldn't be able to tell from the constant push to get every right-leaning opinion outlet as de facto banned while left-leaning opinion outlets are mostly marked as green at WP:RSP. Crossroads 20:47, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Crossroads, I recognize your opinion on the matter, but I need to ask you to respect the final outcome of the AE report instead of trying to relitigate. Although several editors (including yourself and one admin, who was admonished for their comments) did disagree, consensus among admins was clear: It was inappropriate to use Daily Caller in that context and Springee was reminded to be more careful with such sources. Unless you can explain how you interpret the outcome differently, I'm going to ask you to strike "The Daily Caller and Daily Signal stuff was dismissed already at AE" and the accusation "Pushing for inclusion of a Daily Caller cite" is a grossly misleading picture of what happened". I also ask that you strike "one wouldn't be able to tell from the constant push to get every right-leaning opinion outlet as de facto banned while left-leaning opinion outlets are mostly marked as green at WP:RSP" as inappropriate off-topic commentary. –dlthewave ☎ 22:12, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Noteduck, per WP:REDACT (talk page guideline) please do not edit your comments after other editors have replied. if anyone has already replied to or quoted your original comment, changing your comment may deprive any replies of their original context, and this should be avoided. This was mentioned to you early on in this discussion (without a specfic guideline) ]. After being asked the first time you have continued to edit your comments after other editors have replied without proper edit markups (examples ] ]]]). Please follow talk page guidelines going forward. Springee (talk) 12:39, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Springee thank you for the useful heads up on WP:REDACT policy. I noticed that you weighed in on a discussion on talk:The Wall Street Journal today, shortly after I entered the same discussion yesterday. While you're of course welcome to do so, this isn't really commensurate with your stated wish to avoid me due to hounding or obstructionism. If my edits no long bother you perhaps make that clear Noteduck (talk) 05:52, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Noteduck, in fairness, Springee has actually been involved in discussion on that talk page concerning the WSJ's editorial board from before you even joined the project (diff). El_C 07:57, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

El_C they did indeed, but Springee's willingness to be involved in a new survey and discussion where I'm present and where we can respond to each others arguments doesn't suggest that they feel uncomfortable or crowded out by my edits. By the way Springee you said in your complaint that "over 50%" of my edits since March 25 have been about you "in some capacity". What do you mean by this exactly and how did you reach that figure? Noteduck (talk) 09:22, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Responding to the same RfC isn't WP:HOUNDING and wouldn't even be restricted by an WP:IBAN as long as you're not directly responding to each other. I too would be curious about the 50% statistic since some of the initial hounding accusations were also just Noteduck commenting in the same discussions as Springee. –dlthewave ☎ 16:29, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

IMO this misleading construction further shows what the situation is and that Springee needs and deserves some relief. Some have in essence said that my "just an oblique warning" proposal #2 is too mild and that is probably true, but this needs to brought to some type of conclusion to provide that relief. If it doesn't work, something stronger can be tried later. North8000 (talk) 12:18, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

That Noteduck should be topic-banned from post-1992 American politics, or at least the associated BLPs? –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 14:06, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure that a topic ban would be appropriate unless there's an overall pattern of disruption in the topic area. The accusations we're discussing here seem to be limited to their interactions with Springee. –dlthewave ☎ 16:31, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

I was about to say much the same thing. XOR'easter (talk) 16:41, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Responding what the "something" in the "Something stronger can be tried later." would be is a matter of conjecture at this point. But a topic ban is not what came to mind when I wrote that. Certainly even what is on this ANI page itself reinforces the situation. Besides hounding, no editor should have to endure a continuing aggressive onslaught of such things including mis-characterizations. North8000 (talk) 20:08, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

North8000, your comment would be taken more seriously if you could specific examples of these mischaracterizations and what exactly is problematic about Noteduck's conduct in this discussion. –dlthewave ☎ 21:00, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Well asserting/implying that nobody takes my careful summary seriously is not a good way to start.North8000 (talk) 12:14, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

My assessment didn't come from just any one item, it was deriving from an overview of the whole thread here. A part of that overview is that IMO I'd guess that at least 90% of Noteduck's posts here have been trying to deprecate Springee rather than addressing the topic at hand. Regarding specifics, nearly every use of diffs in that type of post had a negative characterization (IMO mis-characterization) of Springee that did not arise from the diff itself. North8000 (talk) 12:33, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Can you point to one diff and explain why it's mischaracterized? I'm starting to suspect that you don't actually have any examples, since I've already asked before with no success. –dlthewave ☎ 12:48, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Based on limited encounters not going too well, I choose to not deeply engage with you. But one structural note....I identified "mis-characterization" as just IMO. My statement in that area without the "IMO" qualifier was "had a negative characterization....of Springee that did not arise from the diff itself." You (or anybody) should feel free to reject or accept my assessment, or to skim this thread to assess whether or not they think that assessment is correct or incorrect. North8000 (talk) 13:09, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

IP Sock

(Please note that my post below was moved here and the heading created by Dlthewave. While I noted the sock/evade basis for removal by someone else of the post, I am not knowledgeable enough of that IP situation to have identified it with this title) North8000 (talk) 11:42, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

There have been posts entered by 69.156.107.94 which have been removed per evade/ sock of blocked. The is IP has a history less than1 1/2 weeks old and ~90% those posts have been on this thread attempting to deprecate Springee. Springee is a polite, policy-conscious editor who has been subjected to far too much of this stuff from a few individuals. This type of abuse of editors must be stopped! The have asked for relief from the most egregious portion of that. I proposed an action which is probably too mild but something must be done! Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 01:04, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

For that IP address, a lifetime of 6 edits, the first fixing a typo in July 2021, and then 5 of the 6 were all on this page in the last 2 days attempting to deprecate Springee.North8000 (talk) 11:34, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

I've moved this to its own subsection since the IP comments are a separate issue the won't be helped by warning/sanctioning Noteduck. It looks like Awilley is handling the situation and has been notified. –dlthewave ☎ 02:53, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, I was too slow on the draw. The sock was blocked via SPI. ~Awilley (talk) 16:59, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Could somebody review and decide on this?

Could somebody review and decide on this? North8000 (talk) 00:34, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

I suggest that the two way interaction ban should be considered. There are problems in both directions, and it doesn't matter which political position the parties support. Perhaps it would be enough to do such a ban for , say, 3 months, and hope that by then they're less likely to re-engage. I'm not doing it as a formal close because of the earlier opposition to this, but I think the discussion since then has clarified that both parties have some degree of responsibility--as is often the case. I think an attempt to find relative degree of responsibility is apt to encourage further antagonism. DGG ( talk ) 00:16, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I oppose a two-way interaction ban. Such is not only a false balance, but in what I've seen those always end up punishing the better editor more since they can't do anything to prevent POV additions or changes by the other. The one-way from Noteduck to Springee makes sense here, because it is Noteduck who is doing the hounding. Crossroads 03:42, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

DGG I think that's an eminently reasonable suggestion. Needless to say I strongly disagree with Crossroads 's contention Noteduck (talk) 06:44, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Springe is not hounding, Noteduck is. Taken a close/careful look at even the material within this thread give a pretty good idea of what is and isn't happening in both directions. Interaction bans would be complicated given that they overlap on articles. I think that a warning to noteduck is the best, most appropriate and most-supported-here solution. North8000 (talk) 10:08, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

North8000 There is no evidence that Noteduck's comments in this discussion constitute hounding. –dlthewave ☎ 14:45, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

That not the statement that I made and something that explicit/categorical from just ANI posts would be an overreach that I didn't say and thus a straw man. What I did mean by what I did say is that IMO Springee's posts here show a focus on just getting relief from the hounding while Noteduck's are focused on deprecating Springee in general. North8000 (talk) 15:04, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

But we are not here to judge people or to right wrongs. We are here to prevent further disputes. Sometimes this does mean focussing on sanctioning one particular individual whose behavior is outrageous and likely to lead to future disputes with other people also, but in most interpersonal conflicts, including this one, the simplest way is to separate the parties. We don't use it enough. DGG ( talk ) 18:09, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I disagree. We are not here to prevent further disputes. We are here to build an encyclopedia. Preventing disputes is neither possible nor desirable when one is building an encyclopedia. The problem here isn't "there's a dispute," it's much deeper than that. To simply say that there's a dispute, thus the two disputing editors cannot talk to each other, which will end the dispute... is not going to help us achieve our goal of building an encyclopedia. Levivich 01:58, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

IMHO letting one editor (Springee) be targeted is the type of thing which harms the overall mission, hence the hounding guidance. And IMHO having them subject to a "remedy" that could turn into a minefield of further such targeting (including by others) when they have taking the polite and high road is also the type of thing that hurts our mission. This vs. a mild warning for Noteduck which I think is likely to resolve the situation. North8000 (talk) 13:50, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

User: Johnpacklambert emptying categories prematurely; edit warring

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Johnpacklambert has nominated dozens of categories for deletion and merge. Before the nominations are closed, has started emptying some of them without any notice. When challenged, he refused to honour WP:BRD.

• Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 June 18#1431 establishments in Ukraine: he removed Derazhnia and Khmelnytskyi, Ukraine from the category, reverted my revert,, and then at talk:Khmelnytskyi, Ukraine#Category:1431 establishments in Ukraine, simply refused to respect the normal (academic, political, and Misplaced Pages) practice of treating earliest mention as the date of foundation.
• Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 June 18#Establishments in Ukraine when most of Ukraine was under the Russian Empire (33 categories): removed articles
  • Lviv National Agrarian University
  • Trinity Monastery of St. Jonas
  • Odessa University
  • Grekov Odessa Art School
  • Odessa Military Academy
  • Beskydy Tunnel
  • Perechyn Timber-and-Chemical combine
  • Port of Skadovsk
  • Odessa Art Museum

There is no reason to remove these articles from the nominated categories during the merge discussion. If the proposal is accepted, then they would be removed as a matter of course. But if it is rejected, then these categories have been wrongfully removed. In my opinion he is doing so to stack the merge proposal by making it look like these categories are empty and unneeded. Perhaps he is also so sure that his rationale about the definition of “establishment” is the only possible correct view that he doesn’t need to wait for consensus to proceed.

In several of his nominations I have provided alternative valid rationales for inclusion of places in “establishment by country” categories, and on his talk page (User talk:Johnpacklambert#Historical categories by period) suggested that a central discussion is needed to establish a guideline for these scores or hundreds of changes, but he has refused to accept my arguments, and refused to start a broader discussion on the category framework.

As remedy, I suggest he revert all of his category changes under all of his nominations, including ones I may not have found, and make a note of this in each relevant discussion. The category discussions should remain open for a reasonable period afterwards. Perhaps discussion participants should be notified. —Michael Z. 23:41, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

The relevant categories fall under discretionary sanctions per WP:AC/DS (Eastern Europe), and the user has been alerted. —Michael Z. 23:57, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment I was reading the discussion as it developed. From what I could tell Mzajsc and few othwr people repeatedly copy and pasted the same (or extremely similar) bad faithed acusations that the whole thing was (is) due to imperalism/colonialism, instead of engaging the counter points other people (not just JPL) were making. So I highly doubt any resonable admin would close the duscussions in Mzajac's direction.

Also, at one point JPL said someone (not him) had emptied out one of the catogries. So there should really be more of an investigation into who actually did what before the finger pointing/reverting takes place. Especially if he was just "following the crowd." Not that I think something being removed from a category matters that much during a discussion though. Who ever did it. Just like AfDs don't suddenly become invalid or are people normally chastized (let alone reported to ANI) if someone edits an article during one. Adamant1 (talk) 01:14, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

@Adamant1: without comment on the detail of this case, I'd note that this seems more akin to someone blanking an article undergoing AfD, that would probably be viewed as rather more problematic. Nosebagbear (talk) 11:27, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Whatever the case, going by what Liz said it sounds like there is precedent to remove links from categories that are going through a CfD. There's zero precedent to blank pages that are going through AfD. That doesn't mean I personally agree that the links should be removed, but I don't think it's worth sanctioning JPL over since it's already going on either. There should really be a broader discussion about it at WT:CFD instead. --Adamant1 (talk) 05:44, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Is it reasonable to ask JPL to undo his revert-revert? Or am I just wasting everyone’s time at ANI when I could just push him to 3RR? Asking sincerely, since I tried to follow the advice at WP:WAR by coming here. —Michael Z. 02:55, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

@Adamant1: That is false. Please back up your accusation with evidence, if you expect anyone to take it as in good faith. —Michael Z. 16:09, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Unfortunately it's a massive hassle to provide diffs when phone editing. Especially when they would be in the double digits. That said, the first thing I saw when I opened the link at the top of this complaint was Place Clichy saying "Oppose per Mzajac. In the age of imperialism, which is also the golden age of nationalism...Etc..Etc.." Which they copied and pasted like 9 times, without ever responding to anything JPL was saying. You also opposed the whole thing because "It is eliminating national and social history in favour of colonialism." Plus "it represents an extremely dated colonial WP:POV and WP:BIAS against the national histories of nations." So claims of imperialism, nationalism, and colonialism were being tossed around a lot and at the expensive of actually engaging in the discussion. Especially with Place Clichy. That was just from a quick glance to. I'm sure there's more, but that's all I feel like contributing. BTW, I wasn't saying that it's a problem that or Place Clichy brought those things up, just that doing so was/is extremely unlikely to result in the categories being kept. --Adamant1 (talk) 23:30, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

I did not make bad-faith accusations. So someone else copy-pasted their own comment? I did not do that either (although it doesn’t seem unreasonable when several independent CFDs come off a production line making the same argument). Yes, there are historical (historiographical) views that are represented in current reliable sources, and others that come from the nineteenth century and Misplaced Pages should absolutely not uphold. —Michael Z. 02:55, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

I copied and pasted your comments. They are bad faithed IMO because a CfD isn't the place to litigate wider historical (historiographical) views. Just like an AfD related to an ethnic minority isn't the place to discuss race relations in America. It's never productive. Also, since JPL was the one that initiated them, by claiming they have anything to do with imperalism/colonialism your associating him with those things. Even if you didn't directly say he was being imperialist. I'm not saying you know that or were intentionally trying to to derail the CfD discussion, just that it wasn't fair to JPL or other people to make the discussion about that. Especially at the cost of discussing the CfDs more directly. That's just my opinion though. It's more feedback on how to be more effective next time then anything else. Which your free to take or leave. --Adamant1 (talk) 05:44, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

It’s my point that CFD is the wrong place. But JPL brought it to CFD when he decided to restructure dozens of categories to conform to his view, a change from the existing consensus that had interpreted categories “by country” broadly and variously. JPL declined to start the necessary conversation beforehand, and refused to consider it when I and others pointed out its necessity. He further committed to it by editing affected articles before his CFDs were concluded, and in fact after it was becoming clear that his view is not the consensus (you can read him complaining about opposition on his talk page). The result is likely to be a large random selection of categories changed out of thousands, and the issue no closer to a consensus or even a discussion. —Michael Z. 13:53, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Your really not making any sense. If CfD was the wrong place to discuss colonialism/imperialism then why did you discuss them there? Also, your saying he should have started the necessary conversations when he literally took the categories to "Categories for Discussion." That's what it's there for. To discuss categories. Finally, how did JPL edit the categories after it was clear that "his view" was not consensus when the CfDs aren't concluded yet and even your saying there is no consensus? I just don't get it. --Adamant1 (talk) 14:35, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

You are mistaken if you thought I was saying it was okay to empty categories in the middle of a deletion discussion. I was just saying that I'm seeing it happen repeatedly and from CFD regulars. But I complain about it at WP:CFD all of the time. It is irritating because editors spend their time considering the merits of the deletion proposal and emptying out the categories prematurely is a waste of their time. It bypasses the consensus building process. It's one thing if a category has only one page in it or if the category doesn't fit into the existing category structure & is a mistaken creation but to do it on a regular and widespread basis is disruptive. Liz 02:57, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Sorry if I miss-read or miss-represented your opinion. To me something is OK to do, as far as not being worth sanctioning any person over, if it's being done by a bunch of people already. Especially if there's no guideline against it. I don't think that means it "should" ultimately be done though and looking over your comment a second time (not on a cell phone) I can see that you weren't saying it was OK to do either. --Adamant1 (talk) 05:44, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment I have no comments about the Johnpacklambert's edits but as someone who regularly deals with empty categories, it's becoming more common for categories to be emptied prior to a CFD decision. I'm not pointing fingers, just pointing at a trend for categories to be emptied prior to a decision of whether to delete, merge or rename categories. It can sometimes be a challenge to determine who is emptying them. It might be a good discussion to happen at WT:CFD. Liz 04:15, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
• None of these entries fit in the category in question. Odessa was part of the area of the Ottoman Empire that as a unit was much further south. It was no more part of any logical Ukraine than anything in Bessarabia. In the case of the places in Austria-Hungary they cannot be placed in a category under the Russian Empire. In the first two cases there is not enough evidence to place them in a specific year. If something clearly does not belong in a category, it can be removed, even if it is the only entry. I even explained in depth about the first two having no evidence that was the year of their founding. There is no coherent way to say any of these things happened in Ukraine in those specific years.John Pack Lambert (talk) 11:40, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
• The first example, the university in Lviv, was founded in what was then Lemberg. Which was in the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The Ukraine category for that year is a sub category of the Russian Empire category, so we cannot place in it things that clearly happened outside the Russian Empire.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:04, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Actually that was in 1852, so it was in the Austrian Empire. There is no reason to allow categorization to be preserved in a case where it is so clearly wrong. Only a few years before the Polish nationalists in that area had insisted the very idea that there were Ukrainians was a ploy by the Austrian government to kill the asperations of Polish nationalists. National identities are very contested in the 19th century, but in Europe international boundaries at any given time are clear.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:07, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

    Johnpacklambert, please respect WP:BRD and discuss the specific category changes at the relevant articles’ talk pages, or better yet, wait for your CFD results before making changes. I filed this ANI because you refused to do that, there, and not to re-litigate the subject-specific questions here. —Michael Z. 16:14, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

There's nothing in WP:BRD that dictates discussions have to occur on the articles talk pages when there's a dispute, otherwise there couldn't be RfCs or ANI complaints, and JPL was discussing the changes on the relevant CfD talk pages. Which is more then adequate. Or it would have needlessly created duplicate discussions with the same exact people and points being made. --Adamant1 (talk) 23:38, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

• Johnpacklambert should stop emptying categories he nominated (or plans to nominate) for deletion, as that influences and pre-empts the discussion badly. In many cases, his nominations for "obviously wrong" categories failed to get consensus, as there is serious disagreement about the best way to categorize such establishment by country / region / whatever entries (for JPL and some others, only one view is possible, the "historical" one, and the "current" point of view, that something in "current" country X was established in year Y, is unacceptable and should be eradicated by all means possible: the idea that a lot of readers might be more interested in what was established in what was established Ukraine throughout the ages, year by year, even at times when the country didn't exist, seems to be totally alien or unacceptable to them, as it is "wrong" from their point of view and no other point of view is acceptable). If they are not willing to stop this, I guess another editing restriction is in order. Fram (talk) 16:23, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't remember the exact details and I don't feel like bludgeoning, but there was an AfD recently for what was essentially a personal essay written by someone who thought Afghanistan (which was formed in like 1949) should somehow be credited for something done 2,000 years ago by Sumerians, just because it took place in what is now modern day Afghanistan. Not surprisingly the article wasn't kept. If allowed, such articles are a huge slippery slope that can lead to a lot of nationalist type edit warring, arguing, and nonsensical duplication of historical subjects.

Whatever our personals beliefs about the issue are, it wouldn't be a maintainable, fair way of doing things. Especially when people start wanting to go the other way with it, where Sumerians are supposedly responsible for things currently taking place in Afghanistan because time/ownership are just imperialist/colonialist Western scientific notions and other views are possible, or whatever. At that point the big bang/god/Neanderthals should be mentioned in every article. There's zero precedence for it either. Let alone is it worth restricting JBL's editing abilities due to him keeping the slope from being slid down. Adamant1 (talk) 21:59, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

...which is hardly comparable to the current issue, i.e. that e.g. the Odessa University, a currently existing, major university in a major city in Ukraine, is removed from the "what things in Ukraine were established in what year" category tree because it wasn't Ukraine in that year, and may only be included in the Category:1865 establishments in the Russian Empire. Now, Johnpacklambert may argue that at CfD (though he could do with turning down the hyperbole about how terrible and stuoid it is to have the "current country" cats as well), but emptying the category at the same time is not allowed. That's the behaviour problem for which a restriction may be needed, the other issue is the way he treats the content issue as if his PoV is the only possibly correct one and the opposite position, which would allow for both categories (one historical, one from the current situation) is an abomination. A tree of what is or would be currently located in country (or US state or whatever), by year of (dis)establishment, is of interest to readers, and informs clearly and succinctly about things that shaped the current country, even if the country didn't exist at all at the time of establishment. The dogmatism that only one tree is valid and the other needs to be erased is highly tiring. Fram (talk) 07:44, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

First of all, I fail to see how it's JPLs PoV when he wasn't the only one in the CfDs with that view point. From what I can tell it also lines up with how historical subjects are handled in Misplaced Pages more broadly. Maybe the Ukraine/Russian Empire thing is (or should be) an exception. I really don't know. Anyway, with your tree thing sure it would be of interest to readers, but what readers find interesting shouldn't come at the cost of accuracy. You can't really have a "current situation" category for things that are in the past. Category:Trees of the United States (dis)establishment during the Silurian period or whatever just wouldn't make sense because the United States wasn't around during the Silurian period. Just like Spain/Mexico City/Tenochtitlan aren't all the same thing and things related to them shouldn't all be in the same category just because the area that comprises modern day Mexico City switched between them (and likely other groups) multiple times. So what if readers would find it interesting or that there were trees during the Silurian period on the landmass that now makes up the United States? Also, emptying the categories is allowed. Otherwise, can you point to a guideline/RfC/anything that's not an essay that says it isn't? --Adamant1 (talk) 09:14, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

(ec)I don't think it makes much sense to continue this discussion if you try to continue it with ridiculous examples, but without actually adressing the issues (simply "claiming" that it isn't accurate that e.g. the Odessa University is in Ukraine, and was established in 1855 or whetever year it is), and if you claim that something can't be someone's PoV if that position is shared by others as well (???). But to address your final point: the introduction of Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion says "Except in uncontroversial cases such as reverting vandalism, do not amend or depopulate a category once it has been nominated at CfD as this hampers other editors' efforts to evaluate a category and participate in the discussion.". Which is exactly what they are doing, and what is being discussed here. Fram (talk) 09:26, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

How is it a ridiculous example when fossilized trees from the Silurian period exist on the landmass that the United States currently occupies? It's literally the exact same thing as the University. Just because one is a tree and the other is a building/organization doesn't make the standard we should apply to them any different, or one ridiculous and the other not. I think Category:1431 establishments in Ukraine is a perfectly example of that. There was no Ukraine in 1431. When you do a Google search for "1431 Ukraine" all that comes up is the Misplaced Pages category. So 100% that's exactly the same as the tree example. If one is ridiculous, then both are and so is the category.

With the CfDs being depopulated, the guideline says not to do it if doing so will be controversial. if it was clear that the CfDs were likely going to be closed as "not keep" (which seemed to be the case) then IMO it wasn't controversial to depopulate them. Unless I missed it I didn't see Mzajac ask JPL not to depopulate the categories in the CfDs themselves either. The fact that JPL, not Mzajac, brought up someone else doing it makes me think that Mzajac wasn't really that concerned about it at the time either. I'd hardly call one person taking issue with something in an ANI complaint after the fact a controversy. It's pretty clear that JPL is being singled out over it also. Since no one else that has done it is a part of this complaint. Plus, Mzajac went out of their way to specifically call out JPL and say he was doing it "to head off consensus." None of which should be encouraged. --Adamant1 (talk) 10:01, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Where did you get the "which seemed to be the case"? There have been plenty such discussions, and they nearly always are controversial. The issue of depopulating cats under discussion was already brought to their attention in 2011 (User talk:Johnpacklambert/Archive 2#Note), 2012 (User talk:Johnpacklambert/Archive 3#CfD a,d January 2021 (User talk:Johnpacklambert/Archive 7#Establishment in Taiwan categories) (the latter one makes it abundantly clear that they are aware that these nominations are controversial). And from his current talk page, we have User talk:Johnpacklambert#Russian Empire-categories. As for "ridiculous example", we are talking about the "established in" categories, and you discuss fossilized trees. If you consider that "literally the exact same thing", then our positions on what is reality are too far apart to have a meaningful discussion. Fram (talk) 10:50, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

I was talking about in the CfD. I don't think a discussion from 10 years ago on his talk page is that great of an example. With the one in 2021, it looks like what was said is that the categories shouldn't be emptied because it looks "like a sneaky attempt to circumvent the CfD process." In no way does that translate to "hey, maybe you shouldn't be emptying categories because it's controversial." Even if it did, one person saying something on a users talk page doesn't mean what they are saying has wider community support. Plus, you can't say the CfD rules are being broken if the categories were emptied before the CfD. Look at it this way, there's a tree on the landmass that the United States currently occupies. The tree (de)established before the United States was formed. Then there's a university in the Ukraine, that was started before the Ukraine was formed. How are those fundamentally different? If you think they are, cool. IMO figuring this out is fundamental both to if JPL did something or not and how to move forward the CfDs. Just saying they are different and that we can't have a meaningful discussion because of it doesn't help though. Pick a better example. I don't really care. What about Category:1431 establishments in Ukraine when there's literally nothing that connects Ukraine to that date? --Adamant1 (talk) 11:08, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Just to accent my point, it appears that JPL removed articles from Category:1431 establishments in Ukraine before the CfD was started. So saying the category should not have been depopulated because of the CfD guidelines is wrong. Since there was no CfD at that point. Also, one of the articles he removed, Khmelnytskyi, Ukraine (which was the only example I could find), clearly states that they don't know when the city was founded. So, it clearly shouldn't have been in the category anyway. I have nothing more to add. --Adamant1 (talk) 10:46, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Avoiding the "don't depopulate during the CfD" by depopulating right before the CfD is hardly any better, but is a nice example of wikilawyering. And examples of his emptying of cats during the CfDs have been given, e.g. on Odessa University he removed the cat on 23 June, 5 days after he has nominated it, and at a time when there were already three oppositions to the nomination (so the "didn't know it would be controversial" defense is again shown to be clearly invalid). Also this one, this one, this one... Fram (talk) 10:56, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm assuming good faith that he didn't know he was going to do the CfD at that point. It happens sometimes. I know I've done AfDs for articles that I edited beforehand because it turned out the sources weren't as solid as I originally thought they were. Specifically with Category:1431 establishments in Ukraine there doesn't have to be anything in the category for people to know that there wasn't such thing as the Ukraine in 1431. So nothing could have been established in the Ukraine at time. It doesn't matter to the CfD what's in the category or not, because it's literally a hoax. None of the keep "voters" ever addressed that fact either. --Adamant1 (talk) 11:15, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

He didn't know he was going to do the CfD ... 5 days after he started the CfD??? Uh, bye, thanks for confirming my first impression that discussing this with you was a total waste of time. Fram (talk) 11:31, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Obviously I was talking about the edit made before he started the CfD. Since that's what we were talking about. Either way, with your first example he said why he removed it in the changeset comment and it seems like a reasonable explanation. Same with the other one. There isn't a known establishment date for the city. Nothing says clear categorization errors can't be fixed while a CfD is going on. None of the edits that I've seen show a clear intent on his part to try and stake the CfD (or whatever claim Mzajac is making) either. Outside of that, I'm not going to litigate every single edit or discussion he's been involved in over the last 10 years just so I can read (IMO) non-existent bad intent into his actions. --Adamant1 (talk) 11:42, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

"Obviously I was talking about the edit made before he started the CfD." Such an edit doesn't seem to exist, not in the one article you provided, and not in the other one I provided; both of these were already given in the opening post of this thread, so nothing new there. So it appears that not only did you not provide a single new element, you furthermore made, again and again and again, incorrect claims about these old elements. I hope you were simply mistaken and not trolling, but coupled with the "fossilized trees" attempt above it sure looks that way. Fram (talk) 12:05, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

I didn't know we were required to add anything new to ANI complaints aside from our opinions about if action should be taken on them or not. Which I've clearly gone above and beyond. Also, I don't know what "incorrect claims about these old elements" that I've supposedly repeatedly made is in reference to. Outside of that I'm not engaging in this discussion anymore. Since I've said all I need to and it's pretty obvious that your just trying to provoke me. --Adamant1 (talk) 13:31, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment So the view of some is I shopuld leave in a category articles that either A-were clearly created outside of Ukraine in that year if Ukraine is as our own category structure says it was a sub-units of the Russian Empire, ignoring that the Russian Empire recognized no sub-unit. B- articles that expressly state that the year the subject was established is unknown, so how exactly do we then categorize it in a specific year. There should be no precendent to leave such very clearly wrong categorizations in place just because they happen to be the only one in a specific category.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:29, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

  Liz and Fram have provided sufficiently clear reasoning for why editors should not depopulate categories that they have nominated or plan to nominate for deletion. You don't seem to be engaging with those reasons. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 02:04, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

• I agree with Fram. Such edits with such justification (edit summary) are questionable. As reflected on our page Ukraine, this is not just the modern day country. My very best wishes (talk) 12:53, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

What about things that took place in the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth? Just put them in multiple categories or one for "Ukraine" stuff and call it good there? Also, how is it fair to the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth or not robbing them of their history to credit stuff they did to the Ukraine just because both were in the same area at different times? Adamant1 (talk) 09:09, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

ANI is not the proper forum for debating the merits of the disputed categories. If a category is problematic, get it fixed or deleted at CfD. If the CfD results in a delete outcome, then the category can easily be removed from all pages at that point. But if consensus does not support such removals, they should not be carried out. In short, JPL needs to get consensus before he blanks the categories. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 11:56, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree with that in general. The problem is that this ANI complaint is about specific edits. One of which was him removing an article from Category:1431 establishments in Ukraine because it doesn't have a known establishment date. I don't see how it can be determined if that was the right action to take or not if we can't discuss categories. Nor is it a given that there needs to be consensus before removing an article for something that doesn't have an establishment date from a category that's about places with establishment dates. There is zero consensus that someone can put whatever they want in establishment date categories and then there has to be a protracted, consensus building discussion to find out if the edit is OK before the articles can be removed. No one is out there asking permission on talk pages to remove irrelevant, off topic entries from categories. Even if it empties the category. A few people complaining about something on a user page doesn't represent the broader consensus of the community either. --Adamant1 (talk) 22:41, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Regardless of the angle from which one endeavors to view the situation, the bare fact remains that JPL has been emptying categories shortly before and after he has nominated them for deletion. Moreover, he appears to have disengaged from this thread without acknowledging the substance of the concerns raised by Liz, Fram, and co. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 23:16, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Sure, I agree that at the bare minimum JPL should acknowledge that a few people are concerned with him emptying categories. It's not like he's completely ignored that a couple of people think it's a problem though and in the meantime I'd still like to see the broader issue that led to this dealt with. It's not really helpful to the health of the platform (or editors) if everything ends in someone being blocked from editing because a few people took with their edits in an ANI complaint, without more being done to address the root cause of it. Totally, JPL should acknowledge that's it an issue though. --Adamant1 (talk) 06:17, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment (as participant) It's definitely best practice to leave the articles as is in categories so that other editors can evaluate them themselves in CFD. (I may have occasionally done this myself though when I thought I could save a cat before realizing that was hopeless and then nominating it for deletion.) There have also been a lot of other challenges with these CFD discussions with cutting and pasting, questioning motives, and especially WP:RGW. I don't think these nominations, including my edits, have brought us closer to a consensus about the categories. - RevelationDirect (talk) 03:09, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
• Comment Conversely, there seems to be mass-populating of categories going on with regards to expatriates. Raised on Lambert's talkpage, to be met with a wall of rambling text. When another query is raised, it's met with this reply. Hopefully every single one of those categories added is supported in the article and they aren't BLP violations. Lugnuts 15:01, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

"A wall of rambling text" that the person he was writing it in response to enthusiastically thanked him for. --Adamant1 (talk) 06:09, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

It was that long I gave up before getting that far! I read that reply has humouring Lambert. I may, of course, be wrong. Lugnuts 14:48, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

• This was raised by Lugnuts just above; is replying "THis is just plain stupidity on your part." really acceptable? It again is a case of Johnpacklambert seeing his interpretation of a term as the only possible one, and rather vehemently denying that other interpretations are possible: but this time it doesn't attack the results, but the person asking a civil, logical question. If this is the stress caused to Johnpacklambert when his categorization edits are challenged, then it may be better to get him removed from discussing categorization. Fram (talk) 08:23, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Kind of like you telling someone "I hope you were simply mistaken and not trolling" because you don't like their civil, logical questions? "If this is the stress caused to Fram when he's asked questions in ANI, then it may be better to get him removed from ANI discussions." --Adamant1 (talk) 09:18, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Anyone can look for my comment in this discussion and judge whether it was a reply to a "civil logical question" or instead to yet another blatantly incorrect statement of fact. But feel free to raise my comment in a separate section or subsection if you think it was problematic: what I said to you doesn't really impact what a third person said to a fourth one. Fram (talk) 09:48, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

How was me posing a hypothetical question about trees that are located in America a "blatantly incorrect statement of fact"? Hypothetical questions don't have correct answers and they aren't facts either. Anyway, what I think is problematic (or really just kind of odd) is that your saying he should be blocked for calling something stupid, an extremely minor thing. When your ignoring him not acknowledging his edits are a problem. Which is something that has consensus is an issue and can actually lead to sanctions. If you want him to be blocked, why not bandwagon around something that actually has a chance of leading to it? "It is like a finger pointing away to the moon. Don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory." --Adamant1 (talk) 10:07, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

The "blatantly incorrect statement of fact", as I pointed out in that part of the discussion, was you claiming " it appears that JPL removed articles from Category:1431 establishments in Ukraine before the CfD was started.", and in a next post "I'm assuming good faith that he didn't know he was going to do the CfD at that point", and in a third post "Obviously I was talking about the edit made before he started the CfD.", even when it was pointed out again and again that all edits removing articles from categories were made after the CfD had started. I hope this is finally clear now? Fram (talk) 10:22, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

It's been clear this whole time. At least it has been for me. Apparently it's not clear on your side though. Since as I've already said I miss read the dates of the edit and CfD. Accidentally Miss-reading something isn't a "blatantly incorrect statement of fact." Your the one lacking clarity here because for whatever reason you keep reading non-existent bad intent into the mistake when there was none. Are we finally clear about it now or are you going to keep acting like I miss-read the edit histories on purpose? --Adamant1 (talk) 11:33, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Where have you said that already? I can't find it in the above discussion. Fram (talk) 11:57, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

So he removed Beskydy Tunnel from Category:1886 establishments in Ukraine at 13:28, on 18 June 2021. He also removed Lviv National Agrarian University from Category:1852 establishments in Ukraine at 13:24 on 18 June 2021. The CfD for both wasn't started until 14:00, 18 June 2021. Which was half an hour after he removed the articles from the categories. Those are the edits I was originally talking about. Are we clear now? Next time you repeatedly accuse someone of making "blatantly incorrect statements again and again", maybe at least check first to make sure they are actually incorrect. --Adamant1 (talk) 12:41, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

So "you were originally talking about" these examples you never gave then, and not about the examples you gave at that time? Furthermore, your claim in your previous post (that you misread the dates and had already said this) is apparently something you made up and now try to ignore? Finally, the Lviv National Agrarian University edit was made at 13.24, but the CfD nomination was started at 13.23. In the next 40 minutes or so, he was adding cats to the nomination, and removing articles from the cats at the same time (e.g. the Beskydy edit at 13.28, and the cat nom at 13.29). So, as has been said all this time, he wasn't first removing articles from categories and only then realising that deleting the cats altogether would be better: he was removing some articles from the categories during and after the nominations. As was clear from the very start of this discussion, and is clear from his edit list (here, edits starting at 13.06 on 18 June and ending at 14.01 the same day). Fram (talk) 13:08, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Why are you continuing to accuse me of trolling and trying to hide the discussion? Weird thing to do if your right and I'm just trolling. Also, it's Interesting that this whole conversation suddenly became off topic and of zero benefit when it turned out you were wrong, not back when you repeatedly trying to instigate and perpetuate things lol. Anyway, I did miss-read the date of one of his edits, which was the example I originally provided you. That doesn't mean it was the only example I had or was going to give you though. I just decided not to provide the other ones because you started accusing me of trolling and I didn't want to feed into your bad faithed baiting. So there was really zero point. Plus, it's not like you couldn't have looked at his edits yourself anyway. --Adamant1 (talk) 13:15, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

This seems to have been a bit de-railed somewhat. Notwithstanding, there are still some legitimate concerns still to be addressed. Lugnuts 18:44, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

• And, in the meantime, Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 June 18#1431 establishments in Ukraine has been closed: “The result of the discussion was: delete as currently empty”. It appears as if the nominator emptying the category led directly to its closing, possibly irregardless of consensus or its absence in the discussion. —Michael Z. 20:53, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Indeed, a Cfd discussion can hardly take place if the category has been emptied, so this practice subverts the process in the most serious way. It is easy to get away with, and rarely penalized, and that needs to change. God knows what the TLDR above is about, but whoever has been doing this should be sanctioned. Johnbod (talk) 03:19, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

User:Catchpoke

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Broken off from another section

I am unsure if this is relevant, but user:Firejuggler86 made a revert clearly in retaliation of my comment here. Catchpoke (talk) 16:49, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

These edits by Catchpoke were recently discussed at There's a lot of IDHT involved in bringing it up here. Geogene (talk) 19:29, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

My intent is not to bring up my behavior; my intent is to note user:Firejuggler86's behavior. Catchpoke (talk) 20:35, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

See WP:BOOMERANG. EEng 00:05, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

• Since Catchpoke had the poor judgment to inject himself into ANI, I think it's time to find out whether they can show they understand the concerns expressed by other editors at the discussion linked by Geogene. If not, I think a very simply topic ban is in order: Catchpoke is not to make any edit in any way involving the word "etymology" (or its variants: "etymological", "etymologically", etc.), nor any edit related to word or phrase meanings, denotations, connotations, implications, intimations, or origins, broadly construed. EEng 00:05, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support Pedantry against consensus is behavior that needs to be nipped in the bud. Cullen Let's discuss it 03:36, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support I very much support EEng's suggestion. Catchpoke is on some sort of campaign, based on the sort of "faux precision" typical of non-native speakers, to replace anything about the origin of a name, expression, or anything else; of course "etymology" is a good word, but it has specific connotations of the lexical origin of a word through different languages. Much worse, Catchpoke is edit-warring against the opposing consensus, and engaging in other non-cooperative behavious like user talk page blanking. Imaginatorium (talk) 08:00, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
• Comment I had intended that we observe the ritual waiting period, during which Catchpoke could express some mea culpa, before the tar-and-feathering got underway. EEng 09:40, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

  But the tar will be cold by then. Levivich 12:26, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

  And let me guess: we're out of propane. EEng 21:14, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

  Been working late, used lots of gas lighting. Levivich 22:47, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

  Levivich, I mean it when I say that your wit is close on to Wildean. EEng 06:17, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

  "Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else’s opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation." Levivich 13:53, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

  Great quote! I'm going to add it to my user page! EEng 14:47, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

  hypocritesCatchpoke (talk) 02:48, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose I've stopped making section name changes. I've used MOS:SECTIONSTYLE and MOS:NOBACKREF as edit summaries at times which I felt were appropriate. I disagree with user:Imaginatorium's definition of etymology. I consider it to cover all nouns and feel it is the appropriate word to use instead of "Origin of the term" or "Origin of the name". If people disagree, I am willing to reengage at . Catchpoke (talk) 13:22, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

  A little late for that; at this point you'll need to reeengage right here. Let's start with I consider it to cover all nouns and feel it is the appropriate word to use instead of "Origin of the term" or "Origin of the name". Do you recognize that a half-dozen experienced editors have told you that your campaign is inappropriate and disruptive, that at this point it does not matter what you think, and that if you do it again you're going to be blocked? Yes or no? EEng 20:14, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

You are wrong and this is also wrong. I will in engage right here. All of the support votes right now are involved editors. I posted a request for an outside opinion at . User:Kwamikagami opines that my behavior is pedantic even when he, User:Veverve, and User:Bermicourt all agree that "etymology" is correct. If you look at WP:RM, article titles are debated for accuracy's sake. A section's title is a "subarticle". Are you saying people who volunteer there are being pedantic? Because if you are, that would be hypocritical. This isn't pedantic, it's a matter of accuracy. "A section headed ==Origin of the term==, in the article Silver Age of Comic Books, does not "redundantly refer back to the subject of the article", as SECTIONSTYLE warns against, because the subject of that article is the Silver Age of Comic Books, not the phrase Silver Age of Comic Books. Now cut it out.": understood.Catchpoke (talk) 02:44, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

I did not agree that 'etymology' is correct. At best it would seem to be pushing it. Words mean what they're used to mean, and AFAICT 'etymology' is not used for this meaning. I might change my mind if you were to provide evidence that the word "etymology" is commonly used for the history of proper names that are transparent phrases. (As far as I can see, you haven't provided any evidence. Correct me if I missed something.) But your claim that "etymology" should be used because it's "correct" is specious even if it is correct: "the origin of the name" is *also* correct. So this wouldn't be a matter of correcting an error, but of a stylistic preference. Even if 'etymology' is used as you claim it is, I suspect that most readers will find "the origin of the name" to be a more legible way of presenting the article. — kwami (talk) 03:00, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

You are being pedantic. Gaslighting linked above uses "etymology". Both uses are correct. "Etymology" is correct and is a style issue. This should be discussed on WP:MOS so that we can standardize section names. Sorry for the trouble I've caused.Catchpoke (talk) 03:40, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Despite my fundamentally vicious and unforgiving nature, I'm actually feeling a bit sorry for you because I can see that you're really trying to contribute and don't get at all why this is happening. I earnestly hope you can find other areas ways to contribute to the project, and a year from now you'll understand what we've failed to make you understand over these past few days. I mean it when I say: good luck. EEng 04:45, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Propose three month restriction to articles containing the word entomology if consensus be reached. Otherwise...

— Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, him) 17:36, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Here's where I either wait three days then say <sound of crickets>, or I point out that the entomology article opens with an etymology – Entomology (from Ancient Greek ἔντομον (entomon) 'insect', and -λογία (-logia) 'study of') – so I fear we'd be right back in the same boat. EEng 20:26, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Ok, then, my final suggestion is eschatology. — Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, him) 05:47, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

When hell freezes over. EEng 21:51, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

It did for Usenet fora, leaving a frozen lake of spam. — Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, him) 04:16, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose I make very similar edits for very similar reasons, and can use all the help I can get. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:45, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support The user gets questioned about their editing and pretty much says, "No, you're wrong!" Your competence is required here. – The Grid (talk) 03:37, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support (involved, as I was the first to object to these edits). Catchpoke's reactions throughouit, including here, show he still thinks he was entirely correct, despite a growing pile of editors disagreeing. A topic ban is in order. Johnbod (talk) 12:16, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support Unfortunately, it seems obvious that being "correct" will prevent this editor from recognizing consensus. As such, I think a narrow sanction like the one proposed is necessary. Happy Friday. Dumuzid (talk) 13:35, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

  The more entirely correct editors are disenfranchised from the consensus-building community, the less correctly consensus will turn out, you know. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:48, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

To paraphrase an aphorism, consensus is the worst possible way to build an encyclopedia, with the exception of all the other possibilities. Both approaches here seem reasonable to me, so I will go with consensus, and those who at least pay some sort of attention thereto. Reasonable minds may differ, of course. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 17:56, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Aye, for now, they may. But I don't need to tell you a universal united union of uniformity and unapartment is on the horizon. We all see it coming already, together. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:20, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Unapartment doesn't appear to be a word, which seems a shame, actually. EEng 18:26, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Hence my edit summary. Literally, deal with it. You, the reader! InedibleHulk (talk) 18:33, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm afraid I remain unable to digest your Inedible post. EEng 04:19, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Support. Actually Catchpoke has misunderstood me in suggesting I unequivocally support his view. What I said (at Talk:Weser Renaissance was that "I'm inclined to agree given the definition of the etymology of a word (and surely by extension, a phrase) is 'its origin and development throughout history'". However, that was only an initial tentative conclusion prior to hearing the other side of the argument from the other editor involved (Johnbod as it happens). I'm more than happy to go with the consensus and I also agree that, unfortunately, the sanction proposed is needed in view of Catchpoke's apparent reluctance to engage constructively and accept the community consensus. Bermicourt (talk) 11:24, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support per a pretty stark showing of disruption and inability to accept consensus. With due respect to IndelibleHulk's observations here, having an established consensus-based process here that cannot be simply short-circuited by one party by mere virtue of unwavering obstinance is far more important to "getting it right" across more articles than is the outcome of any one narrow, heavily pedantic debate about the best editorial approach to one descriptive/empirical term. This is clearly a WP:CIR call: editors who cannot WP:DROPTHESTICK in these kinds of circumstances will (almost invariably) consume increasingly an ever-larger proportion of time from the community, relative to the value of work hours implicit in their direct contributions. Snow 10:13, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support topic ban from anything related to the topic of etymology broadly construed. I feel this is their best chance to remain on the project. HighInBC 04:42, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Enough with the supporting. Can someone just do it now? EEng 04:53, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
    • I suppose I could have closed this, but I have given my opinion and now cannot. I did not see how long this had been going. Perhaps another admin wants to close this. HighInBC 11:54, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Alright then. Next time y'all just ping me on WP:ANI 2.0, OK? Drmies (talk) 12:27, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Chronic violations of MOS:COLOUR by User:Kannweame7961

I recently encountered Kannweame7961 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) creating a series of articles titled Country Name at major beauty pageants (all of which are linked on {{Countries at major beauty pageants}}, the tables of which violated the colour section of MOS:ACCESS. I discussed these with Firefly and changed Angola at major beauty pageants to a MOS compliant format. I then dropped a note to them at their talkpage (User talk:Kannweame7961#Country Name at major beauty pageants formatting) about the issue in the hope this would solve it. Unfortunately enough they haven't responded and have continued creating these articles, as well as reverting the changes on several of them. While I hoped to avoid having to make this formal the rate at which they are creating these means I can't fix them quickly enough. -- Asartea 08:22, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Why does this sound familiar? Canterbury Tail talk 12:47, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Not sure, except that tables violating MOS:COLOUR are probably more common than tables which don't -- Asartea 13:00, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

The colour choice is a bit yucky (to use a technical term) too ...i am placing a few {{Overcoloured}} guiding notices on top of some of the articles today, hope that is ok. ~ BOD ~ 13:31, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

User:Canterbury Tail, anyone specific in mind? I'll tell you already that I could not find anything, though I thought I saw a possible candidate in one of the articles. Asartea, thank you for reporting this and bringing this very important issue to this board--it is a good thing if more people start thinking about this. I propose that this post, following previous warnings and concerns, serve as a final warning to User:Kannweame7961, who seems loath to engage in discussion. The next violation of our accessibility guidelines should be met with a block. Drmies (talk) 15:34, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

No, I just could have sworn we had a thread in the last year or so on country colours in beauty pageants. Canterbury Tail talk 16:38, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

(non-admin comment) I don't remember that specific discussion, but I've come across any number of {{overcolored}} violations in things like reality shows, election results and genealogies (a non-exhaustive list) which hurt my eyes (and I have perfect colour vision). They need to be stamped on, very hard indeed, especially for the benefit of readers who don't have perfect colour vision. If I want to see what an explosion in a paint factory looks like, I'll try YouTube. Narky Blert (talk) 19:18, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Based on Belize at major beauty pageants it seems that Kannweame7961 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has headed the messages and is now creating MOS:COLOUR compliant versions of the tables. Therefore I'd like to propose closing this thread as no action taken, but making it clear to Kannweame7961 that this is a final warning and further violations may be met with a block. -- Asartea 16:21, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Addendum: it would also be appreciated if they could clean up the pages using the old colour scheme. -- Asartea 16:30, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

• Look, I know I'm getting to be a broken record on this, but why oh why do we host such pointless compilations as Belize at major beauty pageants, complete with small-type disclaimer reading

  The criteria for the Big Four inclusion is based on specific standards such as the pageants global prominence and prestige approved by worldwide media, the quality and quantity of crowned delegates recognized by international franchisees and pageant aficionados, the winner's post pageant activities; the pageants longevity, consistency, and history; the sincerity of the pageant's specific cause, platform, and advocacy; the overall pre-pageant activities, production quality and global telecast; the enormity of internet traffic; and the extent of popularity amongst pageant fans across the globe.

–? See Category:Nations_at_beauty_pageants. It's just absurd. There seems to be a knot of editors whose hobby is maintaining these endless lists no one looks at (complete with notes about who got "dethroned"), and the rest of us are roped into their battles over table colors and whatnot. I really feel that volunteer time is being wasted in the service of promoting the beauty-pageant industry, much the same way so much editor time has been hijacked for the refereeing of disputes over an elaborate walled garden of in-universe pro-wrestling storytelling. EEng 17:23, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

I mean if you want to AFD these I won't stop you (I'm personally not convinced of their use either), but as long as we have them we should ensure they remain complaint with our accessibility guidelines. -- Asartea 17:45, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

What I want is for pretty much all beauty pageant coverage sunk to the bottom of the sea. EEng 05:05, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Well, as usual Eeng, I'm not sure if you are being stylistically hyperbolic or sincere, but let's not try to shoot the moon here when I think your initial comments merit serious consideration: I think you are probably right that these particular 'Country X at Beauty Pageants' articles almost certainly violate WP:NOT along numerous parallel lines of the policy (WP:NOTDIR and WP:INDISCRIMINATE at the least as well as more basic arguments regarding a very WP:SYNTH-based approach to WP:NOTABILITY. WP:NOT makes it clear that these kinds of bare bones stat tracking pages (which do not features as a WP:NOTABLE topic of independent discussion in WP:RELIABLE, independent and WP:SECONDARY sources) are not appropriate for the encyclopedia, but we would have to come to that conclusion anyway, even if not for that short-hand rule, since the lack of non-superficial detail covered in sources raises problems with meeting the burdens of pillar policies.

So by all means, let's not discount the possibility of dumping these articles in their entirety. With respect to Asartea's observation, we might as well start with the more basic existential questions about the articles before we nit-pick details. If a community discussion holds that we should not have the articles in the first place, it will save a lot of time on protracted style disputes, such as whether the colours being used in these charts are garish--or more to the point of our purposes here, whether they problematically fail to align with standard community consensus (limited as it is) with regard to the pragmatics of colour design. Of course, the answer to both is surely an unqualified "yes--they are and do." It seems like there probably are some dedicated contributors with a lot invested in these articles who will make every effort to oppose this clean-up, earnestly believing these articles make all the sense in the world for Misplaced Pages, but we've pushed back against these kind of fan culture myopic article sprawl before in recent years, with topics like Dungeons and Dragons and professional wrestling. We can do it again here, if consensus among general non-involved editors suggests it is advisable. But you'll want to host the main discussion in the only appropriate space given the breadth of articles and need for a high level of community engagement: WP:VPP. Snow 09:38, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

While I'm moderately hostile to the numbing meaninglessness of beauty pageant coverage, what you see above was to a large extent spillover from my very real belief that most pro wrestling coverage should be eliminated, because most of what masquerages as sources is, in fact, in-universe kayfabe, and WP has been hijacked as an extension of that. EEng 22:01, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I just wanted to add EEng that I have some sympathy. The creeping "Wikia/Fandom" side to certain corners of Misplaced Pages has been something I've passed comment on before, but it's not that easy to deal with I suspect without causing a very messy discussion page. I will say that the beauty pagent wikigophers are perhaps less useful to the wider community than, say, the airport destination gophers, so let's try to tackle one fringe editor faction at a time! doktorb _words 22:08, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Next time. For now let's just kill all the lawyers. EEng 01:59, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

EEng, when I grow up, I wanna be a LAWLyer just like you... El_C 00:33, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Belize at major beauty pageants tagged for deletion. JBchrch talk 01:04, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Red King 0905

Red King 0905 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Adding hundreds of misspelled or incorrectly capitalized short descriptions:

• -"French General"...should be "French general".
• - "French cavalry Commnder"...should be "French cavalry commander".
• - "18th century Battle fought between French Army and Russo-Austro Army".
• - "Anglo-Irish Soldier and Politician".
• - "First defeat of Arthur Wellesley and A major Siege fought during the Peninsular War".

Numerous talk page warnings, but no response.

A previous ANI report about Red King 0905 was made at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1069#Rapid bot (or meat-bot)-like edits by relatively new user.

I recently reported User:Bachovan to ANI here for similar "short descriptions" edits. Both editors have also added a short description to the infrequently visited Jean-Étienne Championnet. See and . Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 15:45, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

The phrase Rapid bot (or meat-bot)-like edits is going to send our Dash Police completely round the bend. EEng 11:48, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

(non-admin comment) Hands up everyone who thinks that WP:SHORTDESC is a really really useful idea which adds value to the encyclopaedia. Narky Blert (talk) 18:31, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

"Unlike the Latin alphabet, the script has no concept of letter case" Pete AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 10:52, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm not involved in this discussion but, having stumbled across the above and wondered "script???", I followed the piped wikilink above to Devanagari, I don't see what the lack of case differences in that writing system has to do with this and I'm not really consumed with curiosity about that (perhaps it ought to be obvious to me), but I thought I would mention it in case others were wondering. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 11:58, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

• Yet another android app editor we can't communicate with. Levivich 15:24, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Why do we have an app that doesn't allow the user to fully use the site? Heck, considering I can edit on my phone using the desktop mode, why do we have the app at all? This strikes me as analogous to allowing a Big Wheel tricycle on the interstate highways. It's not fit for the task and just causes problems for everybody else. --Khajidha (talk) 15:54, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
    • At the risk of answering a rhetorical question, page watchers may be interested to know that there is, in fact, an answer to this: it's because the WMF did a study and found that mobile app editors, despite not (really) being able to communicate, aren't reverted at a higher rate than other editors. Therefore, the WMF concluded, communication is not really required, so, they allow the apps to exist even though the apps' communication features don't fully function. See Misplaced Pages:Village pump (WMF)#What we've got here is failure to communicate (some mobile editors you just can't reach) for more details (and all the phab tickets linked therein). This is an issue in the trustee elections, see Question #47 and candidates' responses here, and I've been asking WMF staff for some info about this and other budget considerations here. Levivich 16:01, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
      • That makes no sense. "We don't need to talk to them any more than we do other people, so let's make it harder to talk to them" is not a sensible response. If mobile app editors are reverted at the same rate as other editors, they would still seem to need the same level of communication as other editors. --Khajidha (talk) 14:26, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

        Out of curiosity who's responsible for developing the app? This really seems like something they should have addressed by now—blindlynx (talk) 15:26, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

        Excellent question, one I've been trying to figure out myself. It's the Product Department, but I'm not sure how much resources they're spending on it (in terms of people/money) or whether the people and $ are enough or not enough (I assume, based on the output, that it's not enough). I don't know how much resources we've put into the app in the past, or how much resources we're planning to put into the app this year. Ultimately, these decisions are made by WMF staff who report to the WMF CEO who is chosen by WMF trustees. So that's why I've been asking the questions in the above links at meta... and it'd be great if people who were similarly curious would join the conversation over there, so it's not just me and a few other editors who are pestering the WMF for more info :-) Levivich 16:06, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Trolling by User:Adamant1

Can some uninvolved people pleasego through the above interactions between myself and User:Adamant1 (in the thread "User: Johnpacklambert emptying categories prematurely; edit warring"), and see whether my feeling that all they are doing is simply trolling is correct or not? I'm way beyond the end of my patience. It started with my edit of 16:23, 12 July 2021 (UTC), and I hoped it would have finished with Adamant1s edit from 13:31, 13 July 2021 (UTC) where they seemed to say that they would disengage from the discussion.

However, when I today posted (08:23, 19 July 2021 (UTC)), Adamant1 continued where they stopped the last time. Basically, they simply make up stuff to be able to contradict, and when challenged on this move on to another made-up thing, with some other bizarre asides thrown in for good measure. Diffs are no use to illustrate this, the best thing is to read thowe two subsections to get an idea of the discussion.

Please just make them stop and hat the two sections which do nothing to help the discussion forward. Fram (talk) 13:37, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

A few things,

1. I didn't continue the back and forth. Nor did I start it. Fram did by responding to me on 1676_establishments_in_Ukraine when I asked Michael Z where they got their population numbers from after I said I was done talking to him. He did the same thing on the ANI board, where he originally started the discussion by responding to something I said to someone else. He was also repeatedly critical of my messages in the same discussions. Otherwise, I wouldn't have continued talking to him. It's rather weird to repeatedly start and continue conversations with someone, even after they say their done, and then blame them for it.

2. He was pretty disparaging from the start about my participation in the ANI complaint and the other conversations related to it. He accused me of trolling (including "incessant trolling" on my talk page) and lying multiple times. Without providing any evidence of either. He also said a lot of rather uncivil combative things when I was making a good faith effort to figure out what his problem was. Like "discussing it with me was a total waste of time", "our positions on what is reality are too far apart to have a meaningful discussion," "Acknowledging such errors would really make these discussions with you easier," "If you would start by reading what people are actually writing, and not what you think happened or was said, we may get some progress." None of that is civil or good faithed.

3. Fram say's that I'm repeatedly making stuff up and then moving on to other things. Since he didn't provide an example I assume it's in reference to me saying that JPL removed articles from the categories before he started the CfDs. Which I provided him examples of. Instead of accepting them, he just hid the discussion, continued accusing me of trolling, and opened this report when I unhid the discussion. Probably because he was trying to hide him being wrong and the evidence that JPL didn't remove the categories after he created the CfDs.

4. I would have liked it if Fram had of stopped accusing me of trolling and inserting themselves in conversations I was having with other people. If they had of, the conversation they are now taking issue with wouldn't have occurred. It did because Fram continued it. Also, I don't think the two sections should be hidden because they contain examples of JPL removing the categories before he did the CfDs. which IMO are important to the ANI complaint. Overall, I think I've been pretty civil about the whole thing. I sure don't see anything "trollish" about my behavior. Let alone incessantly so. I was just giving my opinion about why I thought JPL shouldn't be blocked from editing. Which for whatever reason was responded to by Fram with uncivility. --Adamant1 (talk) 13:52, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

I didn't plan on responding to your continually-edited post, but "He did the same thing on the ANI board, where he originally started the discussion by responding to something I said to someone else."? Diff please. My first post to the JPL discussion was this, a reply to the opening post, not to you. Then followed your reply, and a back-and-forth. I then stopped posting to the thread, until this morning, when I posted this, which again is not a reply to you or about you at all. You then again started responding, and eventually here we are. Your claim should be easy to support with a diff of what you mean, or easy to retract if it is a mistake. Fram (talk) 15:12, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

"My first post to the JPL discussion was a reply to the opening post, not to you" My post below that (which you responded to) was in general and had nothing particular to do with you or what you said. I just didn't indent it probably. Something that for some dumb reason I routinely have issues with. That's why I said "Whatever our personals beliefs about the issue are", instead of "whatever Fram's personal beliefs are." I was talking about the wider participates of the complaint, including myself. I guess your included in that, but it wasn't directed at you or your comment above it. Otherwise, I would have said so. I can see why you'd think it was though since I screwed up the indent. --Adamant1 (talk) 02:18, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Leaving aside the dubious claim that their reply to my first post wasn't actually a reply, we can at least agree that, contrary to #1 above, I didn't start at ANI by responding to "what you said to someone else" (which now turns out to have been a "general" post to no one in particular apparently). so let's move on to claim #2: "without providing any evidence of either" (i.e. of trolling or lying).

Their first reply to me (sorry, comment to someone else) was a post about some unnamed, unlinked AfD about some essay that got deleted. It then turned into claims that using my reasoning, "At that point the big bang/god/Neanderthals should be mentioned in every article.".. I tried to get the discussion back on topic, only to be replied to with another ridiculous example ("Category:Trees of the United States (dis)establishment during the Silurian period or whatever just wouldn't make sense because the United States wasn't around during the Silurian period."), and other elements that didn't make sense at all ("I fail to see how it's JPLs PoV when he wasn't the only one in the CfDs with that view point."???)

Adamant then started their claims that there was no problem with JPL's removing of articles from categories at CfD: at first because "if it was clear that the CfDs were likely going to be closed as "not keep" (which seemed to be the case) then IMO it wasn't controversial to depopulate them." I pointed out that such CfDs often have been controversial, that JPL knew this, and that he had been informed about the issues, both long ago and very recently.

Adamant's then changed tack, and started to claim that "Plus, you can't say the CfD rules are being broken if the categories were emptied before the CfD." They repeated that point in another post soon after: "it appears that JPL removed articles from Category:1431 establishments in Ukraine before the CfD was started.", coupled with "one of the articles he removed, Khmelnytskyi, Ukraine (which was the only example I could find)"... Now, Khmelnytskyi, which was already posted in the opening post of the thread, was removed from the cat on 23 June, while the CfD was started on 18 June. So the only example "they could find" was completely incorrect. When I pointed out, with examples, that the depopulations were done after the CfD started, the reply was "I'm assuming good faith that he didn't know he was going to do the CfD at that point.", another example of trolling.

I replied with "He didn't know he was going to do the CfD ... 5 days after he started the CfD???" again with diffs, but Adamant replied "Obviously I was talking about the edit made before he started the CfD." As it had now been pointed out repeatedly that no such edit existed, I had to conclude that I was dealing with either someone lacking the necessary competence to even look at diffs, never mind have an ANI discussion about them, or someone who was trolling. The evidence pointed strongly in the second direction. When their incorrect claims were pointed out, they suddenly changed to "Also, I don't know what "incorrect claims about these old elements" that I've supposedly repeatedly made is in reference to." as if that wasn't clear.

The discussion one week later simply continued in the same vein, with Adamant changing their story multiple times, and providing examples which turned out to contradict his own claims. So yes, I fully stand by my claims that they are trolling and were making up things along the way. But contrary to what they claim, I provided evidence for this all along the way. Which also refutes their point 3, of course. They haven't provided a single example of JPL emptying categories, and only later deciding to CfD them. Their first examples were of category removals five days after the CfD started: their latest examples were of category removals during the time he created the CfD (literally). Inbetween, they claimed "Since as I've already said I miss read the dates of the edit and CfD. Accidentally Miss-reading something isn't a "blatantly incorrect statement of fact." " but when asked to provide the diff of where they did this, they changed the subject, probably because no such edit existed. Fram (talk) 08:23, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

There was nothing dubious about the claim that I screwed up the indenting of my comment. I do it all the time. If you want other examples I just did a similar thing in this diff from awhile ago. Same here and here. This diff where I over indented it. This diff where I under indented. There's also this diff where I did the same thing. I also did it in this diff. Etc. Etc. That's just in the last week or two. Your really looking for things to have an issue with. Your probably going to just hide this message, call it trolling, and then claim in your next message that I never provided any evidence like you did before. --Adamant1 (talk) 08:44, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Looking at the contents of that first reply, yes, it seems very obvious that it was a reply to me (I start about content, you reply about content: I finish with a call for a sanction, your reply ends while addressing that point). Looking at your many other claims which turned out to be false, I have no reason to believe you own your word on this one. In either case, it shows that your point 1 was wrong. As were points 2, 3 and 4. Fram (talk) 09:09, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by "content" (every message is content and most of what everyone was saying had to with it), but the whole point in an ANI complaint is to decide if someone should be sanctioned for their behavior or not. I don't see how me bringing up something that is literally the point in the ANI complaint shows I was responding to you. Like five messages above that I said I didn't think it was worth sanctioning JPL and it had nothing to do with you. So can you point to anything I said that was directly responding to your message and not just a couple of vaguely related words that we both used? --Adamant1 (talk) 11:40, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

"Content" as different from, or in addition to, just "timing", "placement", "indentation". You acted as if only the indentation of your post was an indication of it being a reply to me, so I discussed its contents. No idea what's so hard to understand about this. Anyway, any news on your claim from 11:33, 19 July 2021 about that other mistake, "as I've already said I miss read the dates of the edit and CfD. "? Any post from before that time were you had actually said this? Fram (talk) 12:02, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Ah, that makes sense now. It's still not evidence of anything, but whatever. So you can't provide an example of anything I said that was directly responding to your message then? And here I thought you were all about diffs or it's just a false claim. Yet, weirdly you really haven't provided that many (if any). Let alone to show my message was responding to yours. --Adamant1 (talk) 12:11, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Your whole message was a direct reply to my post, which you deny. What other diff can be presented for this than the one for your post? (a diff I already presented among the many posted above, which you apparently all missed?) I read this, due to the indentation and content, as a reply to my post, you deny this. In any case, it clearly indicates that your claim that my first post to the discussion was a reply to you, was false, as my first post was the one to which you "seemed to" reply. Meanwhile, you still haven't given an answer to support your claim from 11.33 from 19 July. Fram (talk) 12:23, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

• Move to close. Is this back and forth going anywhere? This is a discussion about a discussion on ANI? How about both sides stop discussing and back off?--Eostrix  ( _hoot🦉) 12:29, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
  • This is a discussion about editor behaviour, with one side making one false claim after another, interspersed with alot of ridiculous or baffling statements. Their "defense" so far has been shown to be of the same calibre, and I'm trying to get them to respond to another claim they made which should be very easy to substantiate (or to simply admit that it was wrong), but where three requests so far have not produced any result. Of course you or anyone are free to close it, but I don't believe that letting people state whatever falsehoods they like in discussions is in any way acceptable or productive, and editors should be held accountable for such things. Closing this down simply because they try to wriggle out of it all the time and no one else is willing to wade into this is a rather sad state of affairs. The basis for discussions (at ANI and elsewhere) should be that we can trust each other to tell the truth (with occasional mistakes, but not with multiple endlessly repeated falsehoods) and that we can try to resolve differences of opinion on that basis. With this editor, that trust is completely lacking, as they seem much more interested in trolling again, and again, and again. I see here that they got a two week block late last year for "bludgeoning, condescending, talking down to people, misconstruing and misrepresenting comments, and so forth". Only a few weeks ago, multiple editors were calling for an "indef and move on" block for Adamant1 for continuation of the same behaviour. Fram (talk) 12:52, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

A call for an "indef and move on" that went nowhere because the majority of the people who commented thought the complaint was either completely meritless or didn't warrant a block. So what's your point? From my perspective the basis for discussions (at ANI and elsewhere) should be that we will assume good faith and take people at their word when they say who their messages are written to, or editors who are unwilling to should be held accountable for such things. From my side I've been more then willing to explain my actions and provided evidence for everything you accused me of. You've just been unwilling to assume good faith and accept my explanations. Instead, you keep baselessly repeating that I'm trying to "wriggle out of it all" and you keep wrongly saying I'm endlessly repeating falsehoods. Despite that, I'm more then willing to call this a wash if you are. I highly doubt anyone wants this to continue. Why not humor them? -Adamant1 (talk) 14:26, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Okay, coupled with all other falsehoods, "mistakes", and ridiculous asides they proclaimed, I've now three times asked them to substantiate one simple thing they claimed, that what I claimed was a "blatantly incorrect statement of fact" was in fact Adamant1 misreading things, which they had already said at the time I repeated my claims. I asked them then to provide a diff of where they did this, and did so in this discussion again two times. Either they indeed did this, but I kept on banging on about it, in which case providing evidence of it would be a very good thing for them to do and would seriously weaken all my claims. Or they made another mistake, but they have had plenty of time to acknowledge this by now. Or, as was clear a long time ago, they are simply trolling. Despite this, they claim right above that they "provided evidence for everything you accused me of." An editor who makes up such stuff is not an editor we can trust, and not an editor I think we should keep around. Fram (talk) 15:33, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Lets see, so far you've been wrong that I lied about JPL removing articles from the categories before he did the CfDs and you were wrong that my message was in response to yours. Not only that, but you've continued calling me a liar about both even after it was clear that you were wrong. Instead of just admitting that you were wrong. An editor who does such stuff is not an editor we can trust, and not an editor I think we should keep around. Or, you could can just take the L since your currently 1 to 2 and move on. --Adamant1 (talk) 15:55, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Proposal: indef block Adamant1

They were blocked for 2 weeks last year, and narrowly escaped another block just weeks ago. They are now constantly trolling (see above). Enough is enough, this isn't an editor we need to keep around any longer. Please read the above and the previous two ANI discussions about them. Without trust, we can't build a collaborative encyclopedia. Fram (talk) 16:05, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Originally, you asked someone to read through the discussion and give their opinion about if I was trolling or not. Dumuzid did and wrote me a message on my talk page that I wasn't trolling. Yet, you've ignored it and are continuing to accuse me of constantly trolling and your trying to get me blocked for something I didn't even do. How exactly is that a way to build a collaborative encyclopedia? --Adamant1 (talk) 16:18, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Since I have been invoked, I figure I had better chime in. I wrote on your talk page, Adamant1, because I wanted to offer advice rather than weigh in on an AN/I matter. I take no position on this proposal, but I will say even with my assumption of good faith, there is a lot of tendentious editing and bludgeoning here. If you are not blocked, I would again advise you to try to be a bit more succinct and that not every slight--imagined or otherwise--demands an elaborate response. As ever, just the way I see things, and you are more than welcome to disregard. Cheers, all. Dumuzid (talk) 16:24, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for chimming in and the advice. It's always welcome when given in good faith. I've been a lot more succient in this complaint then past ones and its something I plan on continuing to work on. Reminders in the meantime don't hurt though. Cheers. Adamant1 (talk) 16:32, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

(see above) - The above thread in turn points to another long thread, which points to various other threads. Proposing an indef based on such a "see above" seems like a big ask that would make it hard for people to evaluate without having already been involved. Is it clear-cut enough that there are specific diffs of trolling? — Rhododendrites \\ 16:35, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

BTW this may or may not be relevant (I think it may be, looking through some of this, so I'm just going to leave it here in case anyone finds it useful). I remember some years ago talking with DGG about heated discussions on Misplaced Pages in general. He said -- and I think he won't mind my paraphrasing here -- that he really tries to set a hard two-reply limit for himself in any particular thread. That way he thinks more about those replies and doesn't get dragged into a long, fruitless, and perhaps escalating back-and-forth. While I don't personally keep a number in mind, it's something I remember when I ask myself "do I really need to reply again." Jury's out whether I'm successful :) but I found it to be a simple and interesting approach to a common challenge. — Rhododendrites \\ 16:53, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

I'll try, but it is more of an accumulation of stuff than one or two very clear diffs.

• Ridiculous comparisons: in a discussion about whether e.g. Odessa University may be in a category for establishments in Ukraine in 1685, they posted this as a reply: "Category:Trees of the United States (dis)establishment during the Silurian period or whatever just wouldn't make sense because the United States wasn't around during the Silurian period." A previous reply already included "At that point the big bang/god/Neanderthals should be mentioned in every article."
• Making false claims: they repeatedly claimed that JohnPackLambert had removed categories from articles before nominating these for CfD (instead of during the CfD), e.g. here, here, here and here (another good example of a trolling post as well). Each time, I pointed out that no such edits were made, that even in the example Adamant1 provided, the category removal in the article was done 5 days after the CfD started (and when multiple people had already opposed it), but then suddenly they didn't understand what I was talking about
• When the discussion restarted 6 days later, I confronted him with the above false statements, only to again be met with a lack of understanding what I meant
• He then suddenly changed direction, and claimed that they had already acknowledged their mistake: "It's been clear this whole time. At least it has been for me. Apparently it's not clear on your side though. Since as I've already said I miss read the dates of the edit and CfD. Accidentally Miss-reading something isn't a "blatantly incorrect statement of fact." " Fine, it shouldn't be too hard to provide a diff of where this happened then, surely? But despite four requests so far, no diff of where this happened has been provided.

This is just a summary of some points, there are other examples (e.g. when I talk about the POV of JohnPackLambert, the reply I get starts with "First of all, I fail to see how it's JPLs PoV when he wasn't the only one in the CfDs with that view point." Apparently, when there are others with the same PoV, it is no longer correct somehow to call this the POV of the one that started the CfD?) It's all these small and larger issues which make having a meaningful discussion impossible. Fram (talk) 17:04, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

With your first point, in hindsight I probably could have used a better example. I'd hardly call it trolling though. With your second, I provided the date and times of when JPL made the edits and they were done half an hour before he started the CfDs. So in no way was that trolling or making false claims. It's ridiculous that you keep saying it was. On your third, I'm pretty sure I had already said I miss-read the date of one of his edits. Maybe I said it to someone else though. I don't have the time or urge to look through a weeks worth of messages to figure it out. Someone forgetting what they said or who they said it to isn't trolling anyway. --Adamant1 (talk) 17:14, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

For people reading this, just look at this diff and the two edits preceding it (included in the diff). First post is Adamant1 stating or pretending that "How was me posing a hypothetical question about trees that are located in America a "blatantly incorrect statement of fact"?" I then explained again that the incorrect statements were about the dates of JPL's edits, not about that tree thing. The reply (see diff): "It's been clear this whole time. At least it has been for me. Apparently it's not clear on your side though.", and then followed the claim which they now can't remember any details about and is unwilling to look for. Despite claiming in this very section "From my side I've been more then willing to explain my actions and provided evidence for everything you accused me of." And all that isn't trolling? Fram (talk) 17:58, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Maybe it isn't trolling, but if not then it's very definitely a case of WP:CIR. The fact that this editor comprehensively fails that has been obvious ever since he started editing. Why has everyone let him carry on, despite several trips here? Phil Bridger (talk) 18:08, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

I'll admit I'm pretty incompetent about how to indent messages. I have like an 88% success rate on AfDs though. So at least I'm competent where it matters. My guess is that your AfD success is a lot lower. Adamant1 (talk) 18:28, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

@Adamant1, no no no you don’t talk to Phil Bridger in that manner, even though you struck it out, you never should have made such statement. Celestina007 (talk) 03:16, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Its wierd how when I provided the details of JPLs edits I was trolling, but if I don't provide the details of something else I'm still trolling. Is there anything that Fram is not going to say is trolling? At this point I really doubt it. And then he wonders why I'm not in a hurry to figure out who I said what to. There's really zero point when its trolling all the way down either way. Adamant1 (talk) 18:24, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support indef ugh. We have a comment thread about trolling (and that you shouldn't be trolling), and Adamant makes this edit, which is pretty obviously trolling. There is absolutely no need for My guess is that your AfD success is a lot lower., and I don't want to hear more explanations of how they didn't know it was inappropriate. I would suggest a project-space ban, but Adamant1 doesn't seem to be editing articles either. I don't see any good reason to give them another chance which would just waste more time. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 18:40, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Oh come on. I just don't think people with low AfD success rates should be criticizing other people's competence levels. Especially when it has nothing to do with the ANI complaint. More so because Phil Bridger is always saying stuff about my edits in AfDs. That said, I struck it out because I probably shouldn't have said it anyway. Adamant1 (talk) 18:46, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

I have given this advice several times at AN/I, and it has never been followed (somewhat understandably), but I will try again. I think by far the best thing you could do to avoid a sanction at this point is to say "I'm sorry, I understand why what I did is problematic, and I'll do my best to avoid it in the future," and then to completely ignore this thread forevermore. I don't know if I could do it myself, but I genuinely think it's the best course of action. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 19:41, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

As far as the comment that I made to Phil Bridger sure. I'm sorry that I said it. I shouldn't have made the comment. Clearly it's problematic to say anything even remotely trolling in an ANI complaint about trolling. I was more then civil up until then though, way more then I have been in the past, and I'm not going to undermine the progress I've made by apologizing for things I didn't do. Whatever the outcome of this I feel like I let myself down with the comment to Phil Bridger though. It was wrong of me to say. I should have just ignored him instead. --Adamant1 (talk) 19:54, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Why not just look at the facts rather than make such wildly wrong guesses? Phil Bridger (talk) 13:13, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

@Phil Bridger: I couldn't find the link. Why assume incompetence is the reason people are having issues? Its kind of hurtful to be accused of incompetence considering how much time and effort I put into my AfDs votes to make sure they are fair. Adamant1 (talk) 14:26, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

You seemed to be perfectly capable of finding your own AfD stats, but you then go on to say that you can't find mine, which show that I disagree with the outcome less that half as often as you? And it's OK for you to base further discussion on your wild inaccurate guess? Sorry, but that can only be incompetence or trolling. If you have no idea about something then you simply don't talk about it rather than making things up. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:42, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Someone said what my stats were a few weeks ago. That's where I got them from. I know though, everything is trolling. At this point I'm not going to be that surprised if I get blocked considering the bar for what's wrong, trollish behavior is apparently literally anything. Adamant1 (talk) 14:59, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

You are, as so often, missing the point. You said above, "I just don't think people with low AfD success rates should be criticizing other people's competence levels. Especially when it has nothing to do with the ANI complaint." You were talking about me in the first sentence, and it is a bare-faced lie. You did not know anything about how often my opinions agree with closures, but you chose to base a whole sub-thread on this lie. As for the second sentence, who brought up AfD statistics to start with? Phil Bridger (talk) 15:07, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Oh. I thought you were talking about me saying mine was 85% or whatever it is. I never claimed to know what yours is. That's why I said I imagine its low in the crossed out comment. True, you didn't bring up AfDs, but its the only place we have ever interacted and I don't work on much else. So naturally I figured that's what you were saying I lack competence in. No harm, no foul. Adamant1 (talk) 15:37, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

@Adamant1: You never claimed to know what Phil Bridger's AFD correct rate is, yet felt it necessary to insinuate his rate was a lot lower than yours? Why? WP:NPA quite clearly says in the very opening statement of that policy "Do not make personal attacks anywhere on Misplaced Pages. Comment on content, not on the contributor." I seriously doubt there is any part of this that is unclear to you, most especially given that three different threads in the last eight months regarding your behavior (November 2020, December 2020, July 2021) concluded that you were out of line in your behavior towards other people. Saying "So at least I'm competent where it matters. My guess is that your AfD success is a lot lower." is deliberately antagonistic and is a blatant violation of WP:NPA. You are insulting him by way of insinuating he is incompetent. You can either choose to stop attacking and bludgeoning people on this project or you can find yourself not on this project anymore. Great, you struck out the comment. Make comments like this again, stricken or not, and I'm very confident you WILL be banned from this project, even if this thread doesn't conclude to ban you. It's your choice. Either be nice, or be gone. Full stop. Is there any part of this that is unclear to you? Please acknowledge you read this, even if you have nothing to say in response. Thank you, --Hammersoft (talk) 16:18, 22 July 2021 (UTC) (* - just to be clear, I'm not stating it would be me doing the blocking, but I would be making a strong case why it would be necessary)

For the record; Adamant1 responded to my comment by way of thanking the edit . --Hammersoft (talk) 16:38, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

• I don't normally insert myself into discussions of this kind, but the indef support above had me take a look at your contribs and your habit of continually copy-editing your discussion comments... well, it's certainly something. This alone could justifiably be called disruptive, even if (possibly?) unintentionally so. I don't think your Misplaced Pages career is necessarily beyond saving yet, and I don't mean to be patronizing – however, if you do get through this, maybe you really should consider taking a second look that obscure article namespace from time to time, instead of getting bogged down in whatever exactly this is. AngryHarpy‍ 20:35, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

I have a disability that makes it hard to write messages that don't contain errors. Dealing with that by editing my comments multiple times after the fact probably isn't the best way to deal with it though. I use to copy messages to Word so I could proof read them before posting. I'll probably go to back if I'm not blocked since how I'm doing it now clearly isn't effective. Adamant1 (talk) 20:56, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

That does seem reasonable. If nothing else, you could take it as another reason to keep it a little more concise in the future. AngryHarpy‍ 21:07, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

@Adamant1: I have a similar problem and sometimes copy paste as well. The typos are maddening. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 14:45, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment I note for the record that while making and revising remarks over the course of an hour may cause problems on high-volume administrative pages such as WP:ANI, it is almost always fine and unremarkable when writing non-controversial articles. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 17:57, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
• Comment In the meantime I deleted my watch list and unsubscribed from notifications. Since I've found it helps on other Wikimedia projects if I'm not getting emails or other notifications about every minutia that's going on. --Adamant1 (talk) 05:44, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support indef per fram they were blocked for incivility for 2 weeks last year and recently dragged to ani few weeks ago for same issues and narrowly survived it, they have been given too many ropes and their behaviour at this report includes WP:BLUDGEONing, incivility and badgering of other users,there has been no improvements.Ratnahastin(t.c) 07:24, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

  Sorry I let people know that I'm taking measures to curb the issues. My behavior has been a lot better then what I was blocked for and I'm doing things to make sure it doesn't happen again. In no way is what I'm being reported for this time comparably to my behavior when I was blocked either. People shouldn't get blocked just because of past blocks or reports. Especially if the behavior isn't even on the same level and they are actively taking steps to make sure it doesn't happen again. Otherwise, it would be a punishment. --Adamant1 (talk) 07:42, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

  I'm doing things to make sure it doesn't happen again. What things? Levivich 14:50, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

  I opted out of notifications and deleted my watch list so I want have an immediate urge to respond to things anything. I'm not going to write important or long messages on my phone anymore either so I can proof read them in word first and send them the second they are written. Also, if I'm not indefed I'm going to request an extended block ( right now I'm thinking six months) so I can have some time to reflect, deal with things IRL that are stressing me out, and work on other projects. When I come back id like to do other things besides just AFDs. Since the toxicity involved in them really gets to me. I had looked into doing article review. Maybe I'll do some of that. Over focusing on AfDs has been to much of a stresser though. If you have suggestions of other things I can do or where else to put my efforts I'll look into them. Oh yeah, I think the whole "only write two responses" is a good idea to. Adamant1 (talk) 15:19, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

  That all sound like good ideas, but the question I have is: when will you begin implementing them? This is not the first or second or third time... even just drilling down on a small issue, the "success rate" comments in this thread ("I have like an 88% success rate on AfDs though. So at least I'm competent where it matters. My guess is that your AfD success is a lot lower." and "Oh come on. I just don't think people with low AfD success rates should be criticizing other people's competence levels."), this isn't the first time you've made such allegations: you also did it here, here, and here. These are repeated, chronic issues that are being raised. The time for change is now. You don't need to be blocked; if you want to take a break, just take a break. Stop publishing edits. If you disappear for six months, I believe this thread will eventually archive unclosed, and the issue will die and be forgotten, and when you come back, as long as you don't cause new problems, no one will object. If instead of taking a break, you edit productively for six months, basically same result. What's keeping this alive--what's keeping you on the track to being sitebanned--is that you keep posting to ANI. You are demonstrating that you cannot walk away. The time for change is now. Levivich 15:58, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

  It's a little unfair to ask me a question and then malign me a few messages down about how unable I am to walk away from this. Outside of responding to direct questions and pings I'm done with this. I already implemented 99% of what I said I'm going to do and I requested a six month block a while ago. It didn't happen though. So I'm going to request one again when this closes if I'm not indefed. I'm done with it otherwise, but don't be upset if I answer a question or ping. Also, I struck out the rude comment I made to Phil Bridger and apologized without hedging on it. 100% that's not something I would have done when I was blocked before. So changing now is exactly what I'm doing. Adamant1 (talk) 16:18, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

  More lies. You struck the first comment that you made about my AfD stats, but you then went on to repeat it by saying, "I just don't think people with low AfD success rates should be criticizing other people's competence levels", which you did not strike but have continued to make excuses for your behaviour that would shame a three-year-old. What weird universe are we in where you claime that you "apologized without hedging on it"? Phil Bridger (talk) 16:35, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

• I think I'm not seeing an indef here. Not before trying something else. I'm not sold that what's been called trolling is something other than a mixture of two parts poor communication, one part confusion, one part too many replies, and a soupçon of WP:BATTLEGROUND. That's not great, and is really difficult/exhausting to try to work with, but but it's also not jump-to-indef problematic yet IMO. Adamant, given there are clearly many people who find your behavior problematic here and in the previous thread, I think it would be a good idea to think about some kind of voluntary commitment to put people at ease. One thing that immediately comes to mind is voluntarily taking a break from deletion-related discussions for months. Thoughts? — Rhododendrites \\ 15:40, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

  Sure. I'm willing to commit to that. Which ever. Like I said, if I'm not indef blocked I want to be blocked for a while anyway to cool down and work on other things. I'd be fine with a 3 or 6 month block as part of that. Which would include not participating in deletion-related discussions. Adamant1 (talk) 15:45, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

• Not indef, but FINAL WARNING; We've had three different threads in the last eight months that concluded that Adamant1 was out of line in their behavior (November 2020, December 2020, July 2021). I said in the July 2021 thread that we'd be back here again . Just two weeks later, and we're here again. I'm not really interested in a cool down block, even if self imposed by Adamant1. The necessary behavior changes do not appear to be happening, despite several requests for such changes. We'll be back here again when the cool down block expires. Adamant1's been directed to our policies regarding these issues multiples times. This comment given by Adamant1 in a thread regarding his behavior is frankly unconscionable. There is no justification for it. It's an outright attack. In isolation, maybe not much. Given the prior threads regarding Adamant1's behavior, and given the comment was made in this very thread? Wow. Just .... WOW. Ok, Adamant1 struck it out, but if you look further down in that diff it feels like Adamant1 is doubling down on the accusation. For the record, Phil Bridger's AfD correct rate is just shy of 95% . That said, his AfD correct rate shouldn't be pertinent to the discussion anyway. So, why not indef? A site ban is a serious thing. Yes, Adamant1 has seriously violated WP:5P4. But, I believe in final warnings. Whether the person who closes this thread issues such a final warning (assuming there's no site ban) or not, Adamant1 needs to understand there are no more chances. This is it. Adamant1 needs to avoid making any negative comments about other editors, bludgeoning, or otherwise being incivil, broadly construed. Either they improve their behavior or they are permanently gone from this site. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:36, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

I apologized after I said the second part. Sure I didn't strike it out, because I didn't think to and I assumed it was part of the apology because I said I was sorry after the comment. What was I supposed to do, apologize for what I said before I said it? Also, I meant I didn't double down on the apology. I just apologized and left it at that without using it as another chance to take a dig at Phil Bridger. Which I would have done in the past. Adamant1 (talk) 16:45, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

If I were you, I would strike out both comments, in total, not just the bit you struck out, and issue a frank, and honest apology to Phil Bridger for calling their competence into question and doubling down on that accusation. You were completely, utterly, and unconscionably out of line. There is no excuse. Ok, you apologized before , but the part of that comment were you said "Clearly it's problematic to say anything even remotely trolling in an ANI complaint about trolling." can be construed as decidedly snarky given the context in which you said it. This is one of the problems I have with your behavior. You do not appear to be understanding the impact your words have. I echo the advise given by User:Dumuzid above (). WP:JUSTDROPIT. This might seem counterintuitive. Your righteous ire might balk against it. But, the best thing you can do for yourself is to just drop it. Let this thread play out on its own. You might consider not even reading it anymore. Just walk away from it. Go back to doing productive things on the project and avoid (at ALL costs) making any uncivil comments anywhere on the project. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:06, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support as a time sink who is clearly more interested in trolling/nonsense, then building an encyclopedia. Star Mississippi 18:00, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
• Indef and move on (again) Seriously, not just my vote, but everything else I said before remains completely relevant. Grandpallama (talk) 19:57, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
• Indef after reviewing this thread and the thread from earlier this month, I think it's clear that Adamant1 needs a community-imposed indefinite break from editing. Ideally, they will be able to come back in a year and demonstrate that they have made the necessary adjustments, but for the time being their battleground behavior is simply too disruptive to continue. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 20:48, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support indef and move on Enough is enough. The aspersions, trolling and the false claims have to stop. Best, —Nnadigoodluck███ 22:02, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
• Comment — both Fram and Adamant1 are friends of mine and I have worked with both of them separately and say FWIW, can you both be mature about this, close this thread and settle your differences like men? Adamant1 does good job here although have their shortcomings, I don’t know if it’s possible, but Fram is it possible for you to close this thread and try and settle your differences, one which wouldn’t scar Adamant1? Celestina007 (talk) 01:09, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Considering that they have now repeatedly called this complaint "meritless", I don't really see how it would be possible to settle this. Our positions are too different to find a middle ground, and the issues in my opinion to serious to simply let it drop (as they are recurring ones). Fram (talk) 08:08, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Indef – the behavior above is precisely the conduct for which Adamant1 was warned not two weeks ago. The fact that it's continuing shows that he has not heeding the warnings given to him, and that's sufficient reason for a block. An indef isn't intended to be permanent, and I genuinely hope that Adamant1 is eventually able to return and contribute constructively. But until he's able to truly understand that incivility, aspersions, and battleground-type behavior aren't acceptable, his continued participation does the project more harm than good. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 03:08, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support Promises of improvement are well and good, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. At this point, given repeated issues, some compulsory time off is necessary. Then, the burden of proof will be on Adamant1 to demonstrate a real commitment to change rather than simply promising it until the next ANI appearance. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 04:48, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose as too harsh and out of proportion. A final warning seems more appropriate. I also sympathize with editors with a disability. Adamant1, sometimes saying less is more, especially at AfD and here on the drama boards. Isaidnoway (talk) 06:52, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Comment: While I have no time or the patience to read through these walls of text, I do recall this thread from last year (followed by this) where Adamant1 was confronted over persistent disruptive behaviours. Bludgeoning (replying to every single comment in the thread that they disagreed with), battleground mentalities, making broad unprovable generalisations about groups of users, walking back previous statements in dubious ways (which trolling would explain), deflecting blame, and generally not getting the point. I am both disappointed and not surprised that they are currently facing an indef proposal that's gaining traction. I was hoping they would improve after being talked to, but that didn't happen. Darkknight2149 08:05, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose- Permablocking someone over an argument that either participant could have walked away from seems overkill to me. And if we permablocked people just for making long-winded, difficult to follow arguments it seems like we'd have to cull half the ANI regulars. Reyk _YO! 10:28, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• Final warning. As per the observations of Hammersoft, Isaidnoway, and Reyk, above. But this is a close call, no doubt: the present circumstances simply do not add up to anything for which any sanction (let alone an indef) seems appropriate and proportionate, but there is a compelling body of evidence here that this is just the latest salvo in a substantial pattern of disruption for which the user has received more than adequate feedback and more than generous WP:ROPE, and at this point they ought to understand that they need to be scrupulously courteous and above-aboard in their interactions with other editors in respect of that patience and clear community consensus on their previous conduct. That understanding is clearly not being internalized, and the context of the fact that this thread was probably unnecessary is not enough to erase the weight of even minor civility/PA infractions at this juncture. Adamant1 needs to recognize that they only still have their privileges by virtue of express indulgence from the community and thus if they so much as do the textual equivalent of harumphing at another editor in the next year, I would support an indef. Snow 00:49, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

SiddhaAS

SiddhaAS (talk · contribs) has been warned multiple times (or just User_talk:SiddhaAS#June_2021), including final warnings this month , . They have continued to add unsourced material , . Desite 500+ edits, they have only edited a talk page when forced to because of ECP protection and never edited a user talk page. At this point, a block is needed. Two requests , where left on AIV yesterday but both timed out. This editor is a time-sink for other editors, this needs to stop. Ravensfire (talk) 14:39, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support block Despite multiple warnings, the editor doesn’t communicate/respond to the warnings or stop adding unsourced content. Jerm (talk) 14:47, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Just want to add, the editor does mobile editing but doesn’t use the Android app, so it should be much easier to respond to messages. Any thoughts on this? Even now, I’m using my phone to add this message but the desktop version of Misplaced Pages. Jerm (talk) 15:08, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

• Partial block from mainspace until they start discussing? That would get them to a talk page, presumably. Levivich 15:27, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

  Levivich, That might help. They clearly know how to use a talk page when forced there . This may be a good first option, but if they continue to ignore concerns, the block would need to swiftly change to a full block. Ravensfire (talk) 16:56, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

• Continuing today - , - based on the lack of admin replies, I'm assuming the answer is stop worrying and love unsourced editing? Ravensfire (talk) 14:07, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Adding maintenance template; refusing to discuss the item tagged. User Andrzejbanas.

• Quique (album) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Andrzejbanas (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Cambial Yellowing (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

On the article Quique (album), following several edits to repeatedly try to completely blank the "genre" parameter in the infobox 1 2 3, User:Andrzejbanas tagged the parameter for discussion on 28 June. They said they want to make changes to it. Since that time, on article talk they have simply avoided or outright refused to discuss the issue they tagged. I have reminded them of the purpose of cleanup templates multiple times. I have been trying to elicit from them some discussion of the changes they want to make to this small infobox list for 3 weeks. But despite repeatedly reinserting the template, they refuse any discussion of the item they tagged. I have pointed the editor to the relevant WP:CLEANUPTAG and WP:NODISCLAIMERS. We are now 3 weeks since they added the tag, and despite responding to messages, every attempt to engage in discussion of the issue they have tagged is met with refusal or evasion. Diffs:

Editor posted a wall of text 3 weeks ago which did not contain a proposed change to the infobox.

I proposed one from Andrzejbanas’ summary. They indicated no opposition, but reverted the change anyway.

I asked what the editor found problematic to the changes to the infobox. They ignore the question, talk about the article body.

I ask again what change they wish to see to the infobox - that they tagged. They say they do have a proposed change, but refuse to share it.

I ask again what genres they wish to change. They continue editing but ignore the discussion, so I ask for their proposal and point out the purpose of the tag. They claim they are discussing it (while also claiming they don't know what "it" is, despite their repeatedly tagging the infobox parameter).

I ask them again to discuss the issue that they tagged. They refuse. Every attempt to point out this reality denial (claiming "I am discussing it", but then refusing to engage in discussion) is met with uncivility templates on talk and little else. Andrzejbans also claims the problem arises because they haven't replied in about 3 days, despite me being very explicit in three preceding messages that the issue is their refusal to discuss the aspect that they tagged for discussion (not a slow response on talk).

To be clear, I think the infobox is fine as it is. But as I've made clear to the editor, I'm perfectly open to discussing and implementing a change (I've even suggested one for them from their summary of some sources they selected). This editor seems to want to keep the cleanup tag on the article indefinitely, and avoid discussing what they've tagged – despite finding time to respond to messages with evasion or outright refusal to discuss it. I will appreciate a reminder to the user that maintenance templates are not there as semi-permanent features of the page, nor as a "badge of shame", and that after tagging an aspect of the page At the very least, tagging editors must be willing to follow through with substantive discussion. Cambial foliage❧ 21:30, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Just as as a heads up, i've stated with this same editor to not remove the tag, as we have not reached a conclusion. They have forbid from editing their talk page and after posting an exhausting research on the topic, i was wiped out and needed a break before re-organizing the information. This was made clear on that talk page. They have continously removed the tag and when i asked what rule I was breaking, was never given a straight answer. To user is not following WP:CIVIL and has removed maintenance tags over 4 times in over a manner of days. I'm feeling reletiveily bullied and genre-warrior'd over here and it's not encouraging me to get to work faster with someone being as unco-operative as this. Andrzejbanas (talk) 22:41, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Further to the record, i've reached out to several wikiprojects to get more of a consensus with this article (WP:Alternative music, WP:Electronic music, and WP:Albums) to get more people. Prior to this user coming in, the genre was left blank and passed its GA status. I've attempted to take this article seriously and follow the rules. Outisde not running within this users patience, I don't know what I've really done wrong. Andrzejbanas (talk) 22:46, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

As half-expected, this editor continues to simply make things up to fit their narrative. It's true that we have not reached a conclusion – because the editor refuses to discuss any change to the item they tagged. When on article talk they asked "what rule" this was contrary to, the answer was given with a link to the relevant content guideline. They didn't respond directly, but responded on their own talk with I'm specifically asking you to point out the wiki rule. Which one is it?. Contrary to Andrzejbanas' claim, the infobox was stable for 10 weeks prior to their moves to blank the parameter, and I hadn't edited the page in roughly a year. Cambial foliage❧ 23:08, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

You say nobody is trying to rush me, but then you remove templates and say I haven't replied in various times (three days, etc.). You don't ask the status of things or what's happening, you just remove it. And also, before that the article was stable for years and passed its GA reiview with no genres in the lead. And you didn't say what part of WP:NODISCLAIMERS i'm breaking here. Andrzejbanas (talk) 23:25, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

More making things up. It was you who mentioned three days, not me. The lack of discussion from you that I am talking about is over a period of three weeks, as I've been very clear about several times over. I've explained to you multiple times (diffed above) the problem with misusing maintenance templates. You might also look at the relevant WP:TM/DISP. Cambial foliage❧ 23:32, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

There may still time for both of you to promise to stop warring, to avoid enforcement of the edit warring policy. None of the recent reverts is exempt from consequences under WP:3RRNO. This is a classic long term edit war. A common response is to block both parties. Between the two of you we are up to about 14 reverts so far. EdJohnston (talk) 23:50, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Cambial Yellowing I just don't understand why you haven't considered pinging the other editors who tried to add genres (and were reverted) on the article's talk page? Wouldn't that have established consensus more easily? JBchrch talk 00:01, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

@EdJohnston – A fair comment. I commit to stop edit warring immediately over the inclusion of this template. When a dispute arises, with or without a dispute template, it is expected that editors discuss the issue. This dispute is occasioned by Andrzejbanas' stated desire to alter the infobox. Here are the occasions on which I have tried to carry out this discussion with them: . They have not entered into any discussion, and several times simply refused to.

User:JBchrch I pinged the most recent editor, I think. I don't wish to be accused of (or in fact to be) canvassing. Cambial foliage❧ 00:13, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

It's not canvasing if you are just asking people to weigh in. You don't have to ask them to side with you, you just ask for requested comments, like I did when I asked on the WikiProjects. Andrzejbanas (talk) 00:24, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

No, Vote-stacking: Posting messages to users selected based on their known opinions is considered an inappropriate form of canvassing. I'm also perfectly fine with the status quo. Happy to discuss changes (and very open to them, as demonstrated). Andrzejbanas is also free to use the methods available to them to gather input. Leaving dispute templates on the page long-term and refusing to discuss the issue tagged is not one of those. Cambial foliage❧ 00:50, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm happy to be corrected if the following is not true: I don't think it would be votestacking/canvassing if you notified all the editors who had try to change the genres section, even if their contributions seem to only go in one way. What would not be acceptable, hypothetically, is to cherrypick the editors based on their perceived opinion. On the other issues, I think you are both to blame, Andrzejbanas for displaying a mild WP:OWN attitude and you for losing your temper somewhat. JBchrch talk 09:11, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Andrzejbanas continues to edit war. No sign of discussion of the issue they tagged. Cambial foliage❧ 11:31, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Andrzejbanas blocked from that page for a week. Easier to discuss. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 12:33, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Not sure why this happened as I had just responded right here to why I wanted to add discussion. Cambial Yellowing is false in stating I have not made discussion, and I'm actually reverting what they have removed several times and have yet to fully explain why removing a template for discussion was wrong. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:55, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Yet once again your comment contained no mention of what your dispute is, what the problem you have with the infobox is, or what changes would resolve the problem. Instead you falsely state there is an ongoing discussion. Despite saying in the preceding sentence that It's not that I want to discuss anything per se. The claim that Cambial Yellowing is false in stating I have not made discussion is already discredited by the diffs above. Cambial foliage❧ 13:09, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't know how to state that you and I going back forth is discussion. If not, what is it? Simple edit history shows we have been going back and forth each day. Thoughts @CambridgeBayWeather: ?Andrzejbanas (talk) 13:18, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

If you look at the title of this section you'll note it says "refusing to discuss the item tagged". The problem is a lack of discussion of the supposed issue you have tagged, not your stream of messages refusing to discuss it. A continual refusal to on your part to discuss what you tagged is not a discussion. This has already been gone over in detail. Cambial foliage❧ 13:24, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

I find that incredibly vague, i've created several points of discussion. I feel like your twisting the terms around. Regardless, removal of the template was wrong as there hasn't bene a solution to the problem. If the problem was with the tag, propose another one that suits the situation, if the problem was with my lack of discussion, you could easily ping or ask me whats up on my talk page (and you've asked me a dozen times that's the discussion, and i've replied and just because you are personally not satisified, i'm not sure what you are expecting. I've given my response. ) Andrzejbanas (talk) 13:42, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

You well know that I gave you more than ample warning on your talk page, and a detailed explanation of the problem with your lack of discussion of what you've tagged. You also know I pinged you on two occasions before posting here, asking to know what your dispute or desired change is. Your response each time was to avoid any mention of what change you want, saying "I am discussing it" and then "I'll get to it". Cambial foliage❧ 14:05, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

You are taking my statements out of context. I'm discussing with you, i have not provided my alternative solution. Andrzejbanas (talk) 14:19, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Andrzejbanas, you seem to be stonewalling. Either provide your "alternative solution," or drop the matter entirely. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:16, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I have had trouble dealing with the editor which is not exactly encouraging me to move forward. They've even just told me after a month that if I did write up my proposal, they were not interested in it as a solution. It's easy to burn-out on this site, and this is a good example of it @HandThatFeeds: Andrzejbanas (talk) 21:34, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

A diff would make this more believable, but as I’ve written nothing close to this fabricated claim you'll not be able to provide one. It’s looking less and less like you’re here to build Misplaced Pages. Cambial foliage❧ 22:15, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I think this Andrz is just here to give anyone a hard time even if they provide sources. I'm surprise he hasn't been blocked on pretty much every article. If a source doesn't fit his narrative, he'll just keep giving normal users a hard time no matter how good a source is. 47.147.70.139 (talk) 19:09, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

I've added a suggestion on the article talk page to get this discussion back on track, as it appears to be going nowhere, and consuming huge amounts of text in doing so.BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 16:03, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

User:PPP001 Will Not Listen

Update: Now indeffed. El_C 07:20, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The user talk page, User talk:PPP001, has an advance warning that I didn't hear that (because I have cotton in my ears). The talk page says:

You aren't allow to add any discussion without my permission,thank you. PPP001$$ 05:18, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

If anyone want to add ,please inform me. PPP001$$ 14:45, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

If anyone add any discussion without my permission, I will clear the discussion. Thank you PPP001$$ 04:57, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

There is no indication of how one obtains permission. Although it is a rule that an editor may state that certain editors may not post to their talk page, that has never been meant to mean that an editor can forbid their talk page from being used. (I will notify them of this post, and they will probably erase the notice, which is permitted.)

I became aware of this after they created approximately twelve poorly sourced or unsourced stubs on Malaysian electoral districts in both draft space and article space. I was in the process of declining the drafts, tagging the articles for notability, and reviewing whether to nominate the stubs for deletion, and I noticed the strange talk page. This editor is not here to work on a team. (This is not a case of a mobile editor who does not know that they have a user talk page. This editor knows that they have it, because they have told us to go away.) Robert McClenon (talk) 23:30, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Is this a linguistic barrier? Or is it really a case of someone who thinks they can prevent others from posting on their talk? I honestly cannot tell. There are plenty of users who blank their talk pages continuously. I will say, in my experience, that is usually correlated with disruptive or tendentious editing, but I don't think it's against any rule. I would say that this user's statement certainly may serve to suppress speech and warnings against them, which are inherently necessary. And, in that way, it may be a good claim for TE/battlegrounding. I'm honestly puzzled by this one.--Shibbolethink 00:02, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I've been bold about it and just cleared the section. Nobody can reinforce those rules on their talk pages here. Obviously there are exceptions with IBANs, and some people do tell specific editors to stay off their talk pages when conflicts arise, but this is simply not acceptable. Pinging PPP001 so they can see this explanation, too. Patient Zero 00:11, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Per WP:UOWN, users are permitted to remove notices from their talk page, which carry an implicit acknowledgement of receiving the message; the exception to that is the removal of declined block requests from active blocks. I've blocked the user 72 hours for repeatedly redirecting drafts into article space despite those warnings. If the behavior resumes when that block expires, I'd recommend an indef block. OhNoitsJamie 01:07, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, you’d be spot on there Ohnoitsjamie - would that apply to not letting anybody post to your user page without permission in the first place? That’s mainly what I took issue with, in all fairness. That, and the issue with drafts, which I wasn’t aware of before. Patient Zero 01:13, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

No, you can't preemptively forbid other users from, nor require permission for, posting notices on your talk page, provided that the messaging doesn't cross over into harassment.OhNoitsJamie 01:32, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi Ohnoitsjamie, I'd like you to reconsider the block. While the user seems to lack some collaborative skills ... in two years and 250+ articles, as far as I can see, they have not produced anything which has been deleted . Given the editor's history, and assuming good faith, I suspect the editor was expressing frustration at having a raft of pieces at AfC not approved (by me) and their talk page filled up with the rejections (and those pieces had been moved to draft space earlier). All their previous work has ultimately passed...and that the articles were then approved at NPP adds to the complexity (albeit they circumvented the AfC process...but I see that as a reflection of their frustration). Yes, there's behaviour there which is not collaborative, but they have not specifically targeted incivility at anyone, and the lack of verification is not an egregious breach ... seems to me further gentle engagement could be applied. Pinging two involved editors Onel5969 Mccapra. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 02:09, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

The first block is temporary, and they now have a little bit of time to develop some collaborative skills; they could get the time reduced if they acknowledged the reason for the block, etc. Additionally, unilaterally redirecting rejected drafts to article space is disruptive. OhNoitsJamie 02:31, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Ohnoitsjamie, Fair enough and thanks for the quick reply. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 03:30, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

• I spent some time going through their article creations, both back in 2019 and this year. I've audited over 50, and not a single one of them has a valid source. 50. You click on the single link, do control F for the article subject, and nothing comes up. This editor appears to latch on to a single reference, which might be valid for one article, and then use it repeatedly. I'm not saying these entities don't exist. Mccapra did some digging and encountered sourcing to show that they do. The issue now is that you have a hundred or so articles without a single valid reference, if the trend my audit found continues throughout them. I'll give a few examples, such as his first article creation, Jalong (state constituency), Rim (state constituency), Lenggeng (state constituency) (2 refs, neither of which refer to it), although some now have permanently dead links, like Aulong (state constituency), Kota (state constituency), Kuala Sepetang (state constituency), Bercham (state constituency), Bukit Naning (state constituency). Take that last one as a perfect example, the ref is about the election in Johor, but the list of election results does not mention Bukit Naning. I don't want to list all the articles, but you just have to click on any in his article creation log. Not sure what to do, but I don't think a block from creating any new articles until they demonstrate that they understand notability and WP:VERIFY is out of line. And then something should be done about those they've already created. Onel5969 04:01, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

  Onel5969, the editor's behaviour certainly strains one's commitment to assuming good faith... :) Nevertheless, my reading is a mixture of carelessness and stubborness, rather than outright malintent. Yes, it is disruptive and can understand the reason for the block, but as far as I can see they have not mass created hoax articles. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 04:39, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

  Goldsztajn, my apologies if I gave the impression that I thought these were not valid article subjects. On the contrary, part of the issue is that they do appear to be valid article subjects, just with no sourcing to meet WP:VERIFY. I had thought my mentioning of Mccapra's research showed that. I'll try to be more specific in the future. Onel5969 13:14, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

  @Onel5969: I'm still on wikibreak so won't investigation this further but just as a quick comment, I have not looked into the other referencing problems but you are mistaken about Bukit Naning. A quick check of this ref confirms it is mentioned. Please note that Bukit Naning is a state constituency not a parliamentary one (as per the disambiguation) so you will need to click on state to show it in the ref as it defaults to parliamentary constituencies. An unfortunate but not uncommon problem with fancy sites. I wouldn't be surprised if this is a common problem with referencing since (federal) parliamentary constituencies are more important in Malaysia, so most will show them by default. Referencing could obviously do with improvement and I do not know the general notability requirements we impose for state constituencies in countries with federal election systems, so whether these should be considered automatically notable or what. But from what I've seen I strongly suspect these all did or do exist and you could find primary table/database sources and secondary table/database sources confirming their existence and actually most of the sources they used did or do mention these if you can work out how to navigate the site. I say "did" because some of them might have changed, and notably archive links especially on archive.org may not work properly and so be unable to show content that was there. If the site is in Malay look out for negeri (not negara!) or DUN. Nil Einne (talk) 08:34, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

  Nil Einne, thank you. I had not realized that different button at the top of the source. I'm glad that those earlier articles will not need to be looked at. I realized after posting the above, that back in 2019 I must have discovered the same thing, since I reviewed several of them, like Membakut (state constituency), and Klias (state constituency). However, the most recent ones still have the referencing issue, unless I'm misreading those as well. Regarding notability, they will pass WP:GEOLAND, being populated legally recognized places. Onel5969 13:04, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Apparent CIR/vandalism issue with new user

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:MrAfternoon has made a total of 32 edits, most of them reverted. Today I reverted an edit they made on Bob Kerrey's BLP falsely stating that he was Mayor of New York City. They've been warned about unconstructive edits several times on their talk-page. What convinced me to bring the issue here was when I saw that they'd copied Mitt Romney's BLP to their user-page. NightHeron (talk) 17:34, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

The user page was an unattributed copy of Mitt Romney. Therefore I've deleted it as a copyright violation. Mjroots (talk) 17:51, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Indeffed by NinjaRobotPirate. We're done here. Mjroots (talk) 17:54, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I came across a user with a copy of Mitt Romney's article on their userpage recently, but it wasn't this guy. What's going on? Girth Summit _(blether) 18:11, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Found it - see the deleted versions of DragoWinsInRussianRockyIV. Some weird overlap in editing George W. Romney too. I've blocked, will raise an SPI to record and see if there are any other sleepers. Girth Summit _(blether) 11:03, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

SimsWikiaLover19

I'm almost certain that SimsWikiaLover19 is a sockpuppet of a long term abuser. I mean what are the odds of someone having "Sims", "Wikia", "Lover", and "19" in their name and randomly choose to leave a message on my talk page of all the user's talk pages they could have chosen? While I do need to assume good faith, I feel that the odds of this user being completely innocent are very small. Especially given that I've already had a couple of sockpuppets pester me on my talk page in the past few days. ― C.Syde (talk | contribs) 22:39, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

C.Syde65 I was going to suggest starting a case @WP:SPI, but there really isn't much evidence to link the account with any editor whom you suspect to be the master. SimsWikiaLover19 has only made one edit, and their filter log is empty. Jerm (talk) 00:48, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, though they still seem very suspicious. Since they clearly know that I'm active on The Sims Wiki and on Fandom. And they picked the number "19" which was the number that a longterm abuser from 2014-15 used. While that particular user hasn't been active to my knowledge since 2016, I am almost certain that this user drew inspiration from the user from 2014-15 when choosing their username. ― C.Syde (talk | contribs) 02:44, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Bucktony? User C.Syde10 (talk · contribs) created Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/C.Syde65, which was previously created by a known sock of Bucktony in 2017. And Bucktony also vandalized in the The Sims topic area. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 18:31, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

User: Maurice Mo Jordan

Maurice Mo Jordan (talk · contribs)

This user keeps trying to discuss a editing issue on my talk page. Despite me telling him/her what the issues are with their posts (and no matter how many times they get BLANKED) they keep coming back. At issue are edits made on the Three Tramps page:. Forgetting the RS issues, this guy keeps trying to discuss this on my talk page (rather than the Tramps talk page), without signing their posts or even bothering to read about what things like RS are. If a admin could speak to them, I'd appreciate it. Regards.Rja13ww33 (talk) 00:10, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

At least the editor is trying to discuss the issue. Rja13ww33 you should start a discussion at the articles talk page and ping the editor to discuss. Maybe that will get them off your talk page. Jerm (talk) 01:18, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

There is such a discussion on the Tramps page: . This user is ignoring it. It's clear this person does not know how to edit. Here are some samples: . I mean come on....I am a tolerant guy but this is nuts. He/she isn't even trying to post properly.Rja13ww33 (talk) 01:28, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

And by the way, I've told the user several times on my talk page where to post these issues. It's like I am talking to a brick wall with him/her.Rja13ww33 (talk) 01:33, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Damn, there goes my ideal. You've tried to guide the editor, but the editor doesn't want to continue discussing the issue on the article talk page. Instead, Maurice Mo Jordan has bombarded your talk page. An admin should either send a warning to the editor for a possible block if they don't stick with the articles talk page or go straight for the block. Other than that, I see no other way to resolve this matter. Jerm (talk) 01:51, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Hopefully a warning (from a admin) will be sufficient to wake him/her up.Rja13ww33 (talk) 02:17, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Well as it stands I don't really know how to correctly post to Wiki, I posted something to the Zodiac channel and that one was fine but again, I honestly have no idea how to comment on these sites and I have zero idea how to add that little end tag I see on both your post. There is nothing I see that makes this easy or understand able. The issue I have is this which is clearly stated.

In 1979, the House Select Committee on Assassinations reported that forensic anthropologists had again analyzed and compared the photographs of the "tramps" with those of Hunt and Sturgis, as well as with photographs of Thomas Vallee, Daniel Carswell, and Fred Lee Crisman. According to the Committee, only Crisman resembled any of the tramps; but the same Committee determined that he was not in Dealey Plaza on the day of the assassination.

While I disagree with Hunt (cause I think it could be him) the committee states, "only Crisman resembled ANY of the tramps; but the same Committee determined that he was not in Dealey Plaza on the day of the assassination." So what does this mean? It means they didn't identify ANYONE, yet all those side by sides remain up, even though they were dismissed it would seem. So when I have an assumption that Roscoe White might be one of the 3 Tramps, it gets removed over and over and over again. Does this make sense or sound fair at all? Considering they clearly state they didn't identify anyone, yet those post remain up. I basically posted that Roscoe White might be one of the Tramps, it gets removed and I'm sorry but this doesn't seem right or fair at all. So yes, I got a little annoyed. Sorry about that.

Anyway, sorry I don't know how to put the end tag line on, it's kind of hard to understand. Not sure how to work Wiki. Maurice Mo Jordan (talk) 04:08, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Maurice Mo Jordan Once you've finished typing your response, type the four tiles "~~~~" then "Publish changes". That will develop your signature. Jerm (talk) 02:36, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks a bunch Jerm, that helped a lot... So what do you think of all this? Maurice Mo Jordan (talk) 04:17, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Hello Maurice Mo Jordan Before I elaborate, I just want you to know that this notice board (WP:ANI) is meant to report disruptive/inappropriate behaviour of an editor, not resolving content disputes. The issue is, you have been constantly messaging Rja13ww33 on their user talk page about content pertaining to Three tramps. User talk pages are not meant for discussing content of an article which is why Rja13ww33 was constantly removing your messages on their talk page and trying to point to you the appropriate talk page which is the article talk page, and in this particular case, it's Talk:Three tramps. You did start a discussion on the article talk page: Talk:Three_tramps#Carswell but left it and started continuously messaging Rja13ww33 on their talk page. Please, you need to return to the article talk page for discussing content. Do not continue to message Rja13ww33 about content on their talk page. That is all Rja13ww33 is asking for and it would be the appropriate thing for you to do. Jerm (talk) 04:54, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Maurice Mo Jordan I also want to add that you need to fill out the edit summary every time you make a change to an article or any other page before you "Publish changes". Jerm (talk) 05:22, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks again Jerm, this helped. Maurice Mo Jordan (talk) 08:29, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Is an admin going to act on this or what? This joker clearly doesn't have a clue what they are doing: . Enough is enough.Rja13ww33 (talk) 01:18, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment Since this report was started, Maurice Mo Jordan has tried to delete it as well as blanked the conversation on Talk:Three tramps multiple times and a section of my usertalk page as well. They don't seem to accept the concept of consensus or not using original research. Notfrompedro (talk) 13:59, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Problem edits to Nepenthes species articles by User:Nrajah587

Nrajah587 has made a recent series of edits to Nepenthes species articles (and a few others). Some of the edits are vandalism, for example: 1, 2, 3, 4. Another addition is likely a hoax with a made-up reference. Many Nepenthes are endangered, in one article the editor claims to be protecting their location. In another, which I won't post directly here, the location was withheld by the botanists concerned, but this editor added a location. A reference this editor has added to some edits is The Tropical Pitcher Plants (Vol. 2) by McPherson. However, according to the publisher's site, these books are currently available for pre-order and no page numbers are provided in such references.

In summary, the contributions by this editor appear to be mainly a combination of vandalism and misinformation. In edit summaries, the editor often asserts that they are "correcting" existing content based on sources and information available to themselves. I'm not sure that such assertions can be accepted at face value given the high proportion of misleading and vandalising edits. Thanks, Declangi (talk) 00:47, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

It's certainly a very bizarre combination of subtle vandalism and outright trolling. They are doing a rather nuanced job of mimicking an editor who is simply pushing WP:OR in one edit, and then in the next, they are adding sophomoric "butt"/"gay" jokes to similar articles, and then in the next they are mixing the two types of disruption. It really is quite strange and technically involved vandalism, but ultimately I am inclined to agree with you: I think the whole body of the disruption is just one big convoluted effort at trolling. So, for what it's worth, I endorse a WP:NOTHERE block and suggest that even their non-disruptive-seeming edits should be reverted, where the assertions cannot be independently verified with sourcing by other editors. Snow 02:19, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Blocked. Indefinite. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 08:34, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks to you both. @Snow Rise: I've now reviewed all of the editor's changes and almost all ended up needing to be reverted. I did this on an article-by-article basis with hopefully some useful details in the edit summaries. I notified WikiProject Plants and one editor there has already conducted their own, very useful review. Declangi (talk) 00:06, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Wonderful work: thanks to you and the other editor for taking that chore on, Declangi. Snow 03:00, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

User:MfactDr, non engagement on the talk page, disruptive behaviour

Hello, can you look into the behaviour of user User:MfactDr?

• On july 16th i reverted him and mentioned WP:BRD ], and asked him on the talk page to discuss the edits he made , since we reached consensus on the talk page and edit summaries not to include incidental claims of what happend in another region(Tigray Region) on Amhara Region article, this is the reference to the (cow incident) reinstated by user.
• The User then ignored the call to discuss on the talk page, and reinstated the incidental claim on july the 17th , , , over 4 edits, so i couldn't revert user. I saw it on the 20th of July and out of good faith asked User:MfactDr again to engage on talk page ,
• Another user saw it on July 21st what occured on the article and reverted User:MfactDr and pointed him to the talk page to discuss. User:MfactDr then reverted the other user and confirmed that he deliberatly ignored any calls for discussion on the talk page. User:MfactDr has ignored my calls for discussion twice, and the other user once, he ignored the calls for discussion 3 times total. User is also belligerent and accusatory in his edit summaries towards users.

Thanks Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 02:42, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

@Dawit S Gondaria, You have not engaged in the discuss. You removed war crime committed by Amhara militia. No one understand why you want to remove it. War crime included in the Amhara Region § During Tigray war section. if you are disputing reliability of the source, you are more than welcome to discuss. you deleted the the whole content and source here, However I am restored the contents and source here.MfactDr (talk) 03:41, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

@MfactDr Everyone can look at the talk page history https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Amhara_Region and see that MfactDr has contributed zilnch. The same edit i reverted and now mentioned here 3 times clearly shows i said WP: BRD and said come to talk page. I reverted MfactDr because there was a consensus on the talk page, not to include incidental claim(cow incident), and the wordpress source. On my part after discussion with other editors i dropped that, TPLF attacked federal soldiers and that a TPLF official admitted the attack. MfactDr did not contribute to any discussion, after being called 3 times to do so. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 04:57, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

And another article Oromo language just 2+ hours ago when i was posting this, MfactDr overturned all edits made on the article through consensus, not by reverting but through 5. The first 3 edits, , , , (look at the time of the edits), then came in the Notice on his talk page , then in an attempt to cover up MfactDr ,

• See consensus at talkpage https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Oromo_language#Afaan_Oromo_the_use_of_incorrect_source and agreed on
• Also notice how accusatory MfactDr was, and then dissapeared from the discussion, only to overturn all the edits made through consensus, as diffs above has shown. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 05:00, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

And while we are at it we can go further back, and see a history of ignoring talk page discussion on Oromo people article on the subject of Malik Ambar.

• On May 6th i reverted MfactDr and asked him to join talk page discussion, i openend a section there to discuss the source, arguing there was a contemprary source versus the indian times source he used. . The section is still open there, and he hasn't responded not even once https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Oromo_people#Malik_Ambar_source.
• On July 16th after two full months, MfactDr reinstated Malik Ambar . Now i want to make it clear, i don't care one bit whether Malik Ambar comes from Maya, Oromo or Outer space, i just wanted to discuss conflicting sources, and MfactDr just ignored the talk page for months and very recently quitely reinstated Malik Ambar. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 05:23, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

@Dawit S Gondaria, I think you have problem of understanding how Misplaced Pages work. Still, I don’t understand your problem and accusation. If you believe the contents and sources I have added to article is wrong, let Admin judge!, wait for the response.MfactDr (talk) 06:55, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

To notify you that I filed a similar ANI report here. Sorry for doubling the effort, but it seems that I was approaching this from a slightly different angle, and didn't know of this report when I started out. LandLing 11:30, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

@Landroving Linguist: I have moved your thread here, as a subsection. --JBL (talk) 14:41, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, that will do! LandLing 15:23, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Ongoing POV editing by User:MfactDr

This was originally created as a separate complaint, I have moved it here as a subsection. --JBL (talk) 14:41, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

User:MfactDr created an account in early 2019. Since then he has performed almost 3000 edits on Misplaced Pages. I think it is fair to say that, judging from his lists of contributions so far, MfactDr only makes edits that either say good things about the Oromo people or that say bad things about other ethnic groups of Ethiopia, particularly the Amhara people. Of course that in itself is perfectly permissible on Misplaced Pages, as long as it happens in accordance with Misplaced Pages's rules. As a fresh editor, MfactDr of course didn't know these rules to begin with, but after being confronted by other editors, he made an effort to learn things like not marking substantial edits as minor, using edit summaries, citing sources, and, over time, only citing reliable sources. Initially, though, this could only be accomplished through a block at a time when the edits were becoming more and more disruptive.

At the same time it cannot be denied that some of the editor's edits were indeed useful, and this raised hopes that the overall behavior would improve to a point where MfactDr would grow into a valuable contributor towards the Misplaced Pages project, once he learned all the rules and could bring himself to apply them, in spite of his strong ethnic nationalist motivation. But these hopes were several times disappointed when MfactDr would engage in edit wars (as on the pages Hachalu Hundessa and Hachalu Hundessa riots in July 2020) and going on editing sprees in which he apparently forgot or ignored all his newly learned skills; he would then spread questionable claims based on unsuitable sources across several pages (as in one case here, here and here). It was increasingly difficult to convince him desisting in these cases.

In January 2021 I was asked by Keith_D to see what could be done on pages that were damaged by an edit war between MfactDr and another user (now blocked), and I took it on me to bring things into what I believed was a reasonable state. At that time I still had hopes for MfactDr's development and defended him against a proposed block (also here. But since then I did more clean-up work after POV edits by MfactDr and therefore had more and more run-ins with MfactDr, where he also became increasingly hostile and belligerent in his language, accusing me of POV editing, being an enemy of his people, and being engaged in edit warring.

His talk-page history is full of warnings by other users (such as here, here, here, here, here, here and here), which he keeps deleting after some time, even being warned about doing this. In general, MfactDr pursues a WP:IDHT approach to receiving policy advice and warnings, as is evident in the recent discussion on sourced information being undue on the Oromia page.

In the last few weeks MfactDr's reverts and disruptive edits without edit summaries have increased, and his recent behavior indicates he is currently not inclined to take steps to improve his behavior. I therefore request that a temporary block is imposed against him, hoping that it will have a similar effect as his first block two years ago, calming him down and reminding him that he needs to follow the rules of Misplaced Pages in order to stay a long-term contributor.

During the writing of this I noticed that another editor today filed another ANI complaint against MfacDr. As this user has similar issues to those of MfactDr, I thought it worthwhile to continue with this filing, although I know that this is not ideal. LandLing 11:26, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Repeated Personal Attack by LandLing

Dear Admin,

Allow me to explain what happened between me and the user I have mentioned above. truly speaking user joined Misplaced Pages 15 years ago , had contributed 2449 edit to wkipedia while I joined Misplaced Pages 2 years ago I Have made 2949 edit. I Have created several pages and edited improved several page more than user above in useful way. recently LandLing keep personally attack me on several occasion to prevent me from editing

1. user rash to judge me as I edited article without even checked who exactly edited! calling me putting junk all over the pages of Misplaced Pages, repeatedly" User talk:Landroving Linguist § Regards Minilik Articles

2. user excessively biased toward others language of Ethiopia except Amharic speakers as he introduced 2007 census for other speakers and Amharic speakers data from ethnologue. I was asking him to use same data for all and user attack me personally threats me from editing by saying "Honestly, don't you realize that the stuff you do makes Oromos look ridiculous by its sheer pettiness? Probably not what you want to accomplish. Why can't you reign in your nationalist feelings if they drive you to this kind of actions?" I felt not safe to contribute to Misplaced Pages and I have Invited User:Eostrix to intervene on here User talk:MfactDr § Languages of Ethiopia and LandLing finally changed the data for all groups language of Ethiopia to ethnlogue after User:Eostrix step in. deny his biased and calling me nationalist, petty ridiculous.

3. user make fun of me by insulting indirectly calling me "ethnic nationalist", "Oromo firebrand" Again on here Talk:Oromia § History Section user biased toward other group except Amharic speakers even removed whole source and content from "war crime" of Amhara Militia here

• user engaged edit war on here , ,

Dear admin, I believe Misplaced Pages is community website not personal website. I believe Misplaced Pages has strict rule on personal attack. Repeated or egregious personal attacks may lead to sanctions including blocks or even bans.

I am genuinely don’t know why I am targeted by LandLing Over and over again while I am able to work with number of users not attack me at except LandLing.

LandLing damaged my integrity, values by his remarks comment by attacking me rather than the ideas.

Dear Admin, I am really getting sick because of this user. Please admin, Please stop LandLing from threatening and Verbal abuse again. Thank You MfactDr (talk) 15:32, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Coming at defense of LandLing, and highlighting MfactDr accusatory behaviour and bias(to the point of scary) against Amharas.

• I have had heated discussions with LandLing on Amhara related articles such as on Talk:Amhara people, to suggest/accuse he is biased towards Amharic speakers as MfactDr did is flat out wrong.
• MfactDr on the other hand no problem reinstating Original research on just because it demonizes an Amhara figure
• MfactDr uncivil behaviour of ignoring talk page discussions and filling the Amhara Region article with events happening in another region, contrary to consensus reached with other editors on Talk:Amhara_Region page, lead me to open this ANI against this user.
• MfactDr hypocrasy about a 2007 census, has reinstated on the Amhara people article while ofcourse having no issue with a updated source on the Oromo people article, updated by the same LandLing & he is accusing.

Summary: MfactDr appear to have a resentment against a specific ethnic group to a point that is unhealthy for any human being and frankly is terrifying, and MfactDr is willing to combat other editors and ignore any discussions to force content he sees fit to that end. Although some terms used by LandLing to describe MfactDr edits is unfortunate, take notice of MfactDr behaviour and sense of (ethnic) victimhood in https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Oromia#History_Section and the generalization of a ethnic group Amhara people as criminals. No sense of NPOV here. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 10:55, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Non administrative commentary, but I recall reporting them in sockpuppet investigations of Hoaeter for similar behavior? - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 16:14, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

No, he is definitely not. The two have very different perspectives. LandLing 17:32, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Requesting admin intervention

Almost three days have passed since DSG filed his complaint against MfactDr, and so far, beyond a helpful clerical intervention by JBL, this case has not received any attention by non-involved people, not to speak of admins. But have a look at the accusations flying around here: DSG accuses MfactDr of persistent disruptive editing, MfactDr assumes that DSG has WP:CIR-issues, I accuse MfactDr of intractable POV editing, and MfactDr states that my ongoing unjustified personal attacks caused emotional distress to his sensitive self, if not outright physical harm. Surely at least one of us, if not two or even all three must have committed serious misconduct and ought to be sanctioned here. I can understand that admins want to avoid a thorny issue that requires digging into deep and year-old mud with many diffs. But something needs to happen here.

In a more serious vein, the backdrop to these behavioral issues is the current conflict in much of the Horn of Arica, which is currently tearing the country of Ethiopia apart. Misplaced Pages created a discretionary sanctions notice that, as an example, admin Doug Weller recently placed in Mfactor's talk page - a message he already received in January 2021 from Boud and deleted in April, believing that it did not apply to the likes of him. The intention of the DSN is to keep the animosities that currently run between ethnic nationalists of the various groups, particularly the Amhara people, the Oromo people and the Tigrayans, off the pages of Misplaced Pages, and to ensure NPOV content on all related pages. This has been difficult enough over the last few years, but the increasing tensions attract more and more editors that want to tell the truth as they see it, and on as many pages as they can reach. MfactDr is one of them, giving us his version of the story from the Oromo nationalist perspective, with a currently strong anti-Amharic bias. If Misplaced Pages is really serious about the discretionary sanctions notice, it needs to act when people blatantly and repeatedly ignore it, in the face of several warnings. MfactDr, in spite of my earlier hopes, currently shows no signs of toning down his POV editing. If at the end of this process nothing happens, he will feel vindicated and even encouraged to continue as he did before. LandLing 21:57, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Azerbaijani vandalism on Armenia-Azerbaijan-related articles

The IP address 185.81.81.2, out of Baku, reverts my and other users' edits by using deprecated or straightforwardly unreliable sources, mostly governmental or fringe ones, all in Azerbaijani. I suspect that this address is operated by the banned user EljanM, whose sockpuppet IsmayilovAkif was banned earlier today. BaxçeyêReş (talk) 06:37, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Personal attacks by User:ChicagoWikiEditor

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The editor ChicagoWikiEditor keeps throwing personal attacks at me stating that I'm a sockpuppet without stating any evidence whatsoever which I'm guessing is to scare me off the article 1 , 2 . The particular editor want the term Internet celebrity removed stating original research such as it does not apply to youtubers and that you need to prominent on multiple platforms which is false from referencing Internet Celebrity. Hehexd101 (talk) 11:13, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

ModernMan99

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

ModernMan99 (talk · contribs) has been blocked three times (twice in March 2021 (the first from me) and again in April 2021) for the addition of unsourced content to BLPs. His talk page is littered with warnings for this. He continues to add unsourced content to BLPs, see e.g. this. I suggest an indef. GiantSnowman 14:17, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Indef'd. Hopefully THIS gets the message across to them if they wish to edit in the future. RickinBaltimore (talk) 14:19, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Bludgeoning and WP:OWN by Andrew Lancaster

For quite some time now, user:Andrew Lancaster has been bludgeoning discussions at talk:Germanic peoples and talk:Goths, posting huge walls of text and driving away most editors.

• At talk:Germanic peoples, he's added 44.2% of the edits and 56.3% of the text. The next closest editor, Krakkos, has added only 9.3% of edits and 16.6% of text.
• The disparity at talk:Goths is even starker. There Andrew Lancaster has made over 50% of the edits on the talk page and added 61% of the text. For perspective, the next closest editor is Krakkos, who's added only about 17% of the edits and added only 23.1% of the text.
• This has been a long term problem, beginning probably about a year ago. It involves endless repetitive discussions in which almost everyone disagrees with Andrew, but he somehow gets his way. See the discussions and RFCs about "what the article is about" whenever anyone else starts editing: Talk:Goths/Archive 10#Review of new proposal by Krakkos 31 March 2021, Talk:Goths/Archive 11#RfC on re-focusing the lead, Talk:Goths#RFC on article focus Talk:Germanic peoples/Archive 9#Revisiting the article topic controversy, Talk:Germanic peoples/Archive 11#Future of the article talk:Germanic peoples#Structure ideas again, Talk:Germanic peoples#the question of what this article is about. (I've probably missed some)
• The neutrality of Andrew's POV and the direction he has pushed the article has also been a topic, resulting in Bloodofox tagging Germanic peoples for neutrality and eventually me reverting back to a version before Andrew had made his changes, as had been repeatedly suggested on the talk page. This has been a long-term issue that's been brought up numerous times before, see Talk:Germanic peoples/Archive 11#Drastic and highly problematic edit to the lead, Talk:Germanic peoples/Archive 13#Agenda Anyone, Talk:Germanic peoples/Archive 15#Rewrite and NPOV as just a few of the more explicit examples.

Recently, Carlstak and myself have repeatedly reached out to Andrew to stop bludgeoning the process, but to no avail, (see , ). The issue of Andrew's wp:WALLSOFTEXT was also brought up by other editors, such as Bloodofox . It is my belief that Andrew is at this point the main obstacle to ever getting anything done on the article, that he has some serious wp:OWN issues on the topic of early Germanic peoples. He's driving away other editors who simply don't want to deal with him - including myself, for a long while. I think that a topic ban is most probably in order.--Ermenrich (talk) 16:21, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Pinging involved editors @Berig, Obenritter, Alcaios, Ealdgyth, Srnec, Avilich, Dynasteria, Yngvadottir, Austronesier, SMcCandlish, North8000, Krakkos, Bloodofox, and Carlstak:, my apologies if I missed anyone.--Ermenrich (talk) 16:26, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

• I can only concur with what Ermenrich writes above. It is a clear case of WP:OWN, by an editor who appears to have developed a method for bludgeoning away other editors. I don't know how many competent editors he has pushed away from these articles, but I am one of the editors who don't feel it is worth it to engage in interminable discussions.--Berig (talk) 16:34, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

• I also concur. Unfortunately, Ermenrich's assessment is exactly what I have witnessed. Other editors have been very patient with Andrew but this has been going on for far too long. As editors, we can disagree on this or that—that's perfectly natural—but Andrew's consistent and extensive bludgeoning is a real problem. He's well aware of what he's doing. Several editors have mentioned it to him, including myself. At this point it's difficult to assume good faith about his approach. I think a topic ban is the only solution here. :bloodofox: (talk) 16:58, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

• I must concur based on my observations as well. Andrew's lengthy and incessant walls of Talk Page discourse are simply too mentally exhausting for most editors, myself included. A topic ban seems the right solution in this case, as he is a valuable contributor otherwise. He simply cannot get out of his own way on this particular subject arena.--Obenritter (talk) 17:11, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

• My knowledge of the situation is from being a medium-close observer of the Goth article for almost 4 months and just a quick glance at the Germanic peoples article when I got the ping for this ANI, so I'm talking mostly about the Goth article. As a preface, on the Goths article, the situation is unusual. There are only minor differences of opinion there; the biggest challenge is that they are dealing with huge amounts of material there on a complex, multi-faceted topic and Andrew has been trying to use a very cautious Wikipedian process (including large drafts) to move it forward. And it's still mired down, again, with no real disputes. IMO partially because the main person trying to move it forward, Andrew has been too cautious and too thorough in his approach. And I think that there have been no complaints about his behavior. In short, the hard work on the article which Ermenrich noted should be cause to give Andrew a barnster not an ANI post. That said, the sheer quantity and complexity of material being discussed and the size and complexity of Andrew's proposals certainly is an in-advertant barrier for entry and participation; this could be a source of frustration including for Ermenrich, Berig, Obenritter and others. It needs a tough simplifier-facillitator for the conversation. I'd be willing to try to be that at the Goth article for 1-2 months if they wanted me. IMO there is no behavioral problem there.North8000 (talk) 17:17, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

• I'm convinced that Andrew is acting in good faith, but this is true that those walls of text on talk pages are often exhausting. You should try to be more concise in your answers, or perhaps to open a blog if you like writing lengthy posts about Germanic studies. Alcaios (talk) 17:36, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

• I agree that the contributions of Andrew Lancaster in the talk page come in a length and speed that makes it hard to keep up with the discussion. Some editors react less voluminously, but just as quick. What happens is that people like me who prefer to read 100 pages of good sources first before writing a single paragraph in both mainspace and talkspace will just withdraw (and read sources instead). It is my dearest wish that Andrew Lancaster could "come to senses" without measures like TBAN, because I consider his input very valuable in principle. There's bludgeoning and there's bludgeoning: some people do senseless rants and rambling, but Andrew Lancaster talk contributions always convey a message; unfortunately however, too often repetitive, little to the point, and with a seeming intent to "convince" people instead of accepting each of our POVs as they are. –Austronesier (talk) 17:59, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

• Andrew Lancaster is certainly capable of contributing in a constructive way, but his extremely verbose talkpage commentary is a real obstacle for other editors who want to work on the Germanic peoples article. Whether he intends to be obstructive or not, his unending objections and suggestions wear out other editors who've been part of the conversation, and scare away knowledgable editors who would like to contribute but don't want to deal with the morass of commentary, most of it generated by Andrew Lancaster. His general response to admonitions to be more concise is to add another wall of text in response. Our crew of subject experts can't get anywhere because of his obtuse behavior, and one does begin to wonder after a while if his obstructionism is deliberate. I support a topic ban; he can contribute more productively on other articles—he's absolutely an impediment to progress on this one. Carlstak (talk) 18:35, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

• My personal experience has been that the length and frequency of Andrew Lancaster's posts have been off-putting and something of an obstruction to further contributions. My central objection may not be shared by others, that too great a reliance on the "consensus" of recognized academicians is not a strategy for arriving at the truth as best we can know it. But the demand for a consensus seems particularly to be AL's platform for deciding the entire thrust of the article. This shuts out divergent opinion through exercising authority by proxy. "It's not who votes that counts, it's who counts the votes." Similarly, it's who chooses which scholar to give legitimacy to that determines which version of the truth is being put out there to the inquiring public. OTOH, I have found Andrew's contributions to be sincere and knowledgeable. Dynasteria (talk) 21:15, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

• Belatedly, yes, I agree. Andrew Lancaster is undoubtedly editing in good faith at both Talk:Goths and Talk:Germanic peoples, but his rigidity and aspects of his manner of argument—invoking names of scholars in a sometimes almost talismanic way, voluminous posts including at Talk:Goths a seemingly unending series of requests for comment, and sometimes personalization of discussion—caused me to walk away from Talk:Goths and I have several times been on the brink of doing the same at Talk:Germanic peoples. I am aware both that people of different academic backgrounds can have different assumptions, and that people can have very different reactions to the same style of argument. But for example I find this edit unduly personalizes the discussion, moreso toward Berig and Krakkos than me, while responding to my concerns over sources in a manner that I do find redolent of article ownership, hoping I don't mean he should rehash all the earlier discussions on the page. There and elsewhere, I consider his reference to "old and low-quality sources which equated large language families with ethnicity" to be reductionist. I'm not sure he realizes that such responses are intimidating; I'm pretty sure some would not find them so, but I was put off. At Talk:Germanic peoples, I tried to meet his argument partway by demonstrating awareness of the problematic history of the field under the Nazis (I thought it might as well be me taking the "Godwin" charge rather than someone else), and I pointed out what seemed to me to be a crucial difference of assumptions about the range of the article. Andrew Lancaster didn't bludgeon that discussion as much, and also came to my talk page and I think thought about what I said in response. But Ealdgyth stepped in at the article talk page as a neutral arbiter, and is both a highly experienced editor (and administrator) and a fine medievalist, and I do not think this article section where he interacts with her is polite. (@North8000: I think this illustrates the difference of perception; but I also want to stress that at least one highly qualified person has tried.) Andrew Lancaster rewrote the Germanic peoples article, and I can understand he feels invested in it and it must be hard to see agreement being reached on the talk page to start over with a version of the article prior to that rewrite. I can see why he found it impossible to stay away after I mentioned him on the talk page. As I say, he is undoubtedly editing in good faith. But someone can mean well and yet be intimidating and overly concerned with their own viewpoint and their own rights and insufficiently cognizant of others' rights or open to consideration of their points of view. And perhaps another factor is that this editor's style in the articles, particularly Germanic peoples, is long-winded and not very clear, similar to the style of the "walls of text" they have usually posted on the talk pages. (I am of course open to the same accusations, both with regard to argument and to length and lack of clarity in writing.) Yngvadottir (talk) 07:17, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Reaction. IMHO the posts of Ermenrich and Carlstak are misleading and overdramatized, written when annoyed, though obviously I am not perfect, and can improve. We all have our different skill sets. But Goths is basically frozen and should have strange stats due to the admin decision pushing the main editors to RFC before any edit. The situation has changed again totally on Germanic peoples, so it is a bad time to judge it based on its past. Ermenrich has totally rewritten the article. No one blocked that or anything else. As can be seen in the calmer reactions above the only way I “block” or “own” discussions is by analyzing the pesky complexities which come from published sources. I find the advice of North, Austronesier, Alcaios, and Yngvadottir (and Ealdgyth) very useful and will try to follow it. Much less helpful, Carlstak writes increasingly about their impression of my character, sometimes positive, sometimes negative, but almost never about content and sources. Ermenrich has been an important on-and-off editor who was (like Austronesier and Srnec) an advisor to me when I drafted a new version in early 2020. That drafting period had a big impact on my talk page statistics. I had the time and energy to do it, and no one was stopping any imaginary team of experts from contributing more. That a rewrite was needed at that time was not controversial after several months of bold editing created a mess, and there were also RFCs which guided my work, and then later guided the way I answered complaints by visitors. I have often been involved in discussions about the article scope because that exact question has always been controversial on this article, long before I got involved. NOTE. The idea that the article structure was holding us up, and that we should return to the version of July 2019, which was NOT the version prior to mine but one from a half year earlier, was a recent proposal of Austronesier, and Ermenrich went and did it soon after. Now that Ermenrich has totally rewritten the article, the focus of POV complaints from editors with heterodox positions won’t be me anymore and that will naturally decrease calls upon me. As Dynasteria points out, I’ve been associated with the “POV” of using mainstream scholars, and in such discussions Ermenrich has often appeared as someone supporting my explanations. Why is Ermenrich now focussing mainly on discussions which happened in the past, which Ermenrich supported in the past, and which are now likely to stop naturally? IMHO the trigger has been normal BRD editing disagreements which should be resolvable and are not described as part of the complaint above. So we are in a new phase on this article, and we are all still adapting to it. A critical review of these articles would show a wide range of human imperfections, and no super heroes. Now is not a good time to be over-dramatizing or trying to exclude editors who've spent the last year looking at the sources.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:54, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose the singling out of Andrew Lancaster as the problem here. Here's some findings and comments to explain why.

1. I'm new to this topic and so went to take a look at the article Germanic peoples. The first thing I notice as a reader is that it has two banner tags at the top: {{POV}} and {{cleanup rewrite}}. These indicate that these issues will be explained on the talk page but it's not obvious on the talk page which of the many sections relate to these tags.
2. Looking at the history of those tags, we find that they were placed on 8 July 2021 by bloodofox. On that day, Bloodofox posted 32 times on the article's talk page but I can't find any posts which clearly explain or even mention these tags.
3. The main section which bloofofox started on the talk page was instead a proposal to split the article. This is quite a radical suggestion but the process did not fully conform to the process described at WP:SPLIT. In particular, a {{split}} template was not placed on the article to notify the readership.
4. It seems evident that Andrew Lancaster is not the only editor who is very active in this topic and so generating actions and discussions which are difficult to follow and keep up with. If you look at the article history, you can see a flurry of recent edits by other editors – many edits being made on the same day.
5. In this situation of intense activity, it will naturally be difficult for editors to agree or even follow the details. WP:FAIT has a ruling from arbcom which states that "Editors who are collectively or individually making large numbers of similar edits, and are apprised that those edits are controversial or disputed, are expected to attempt to resolve the dispute through discussion. It is inappropriate to use repetition or volume in order to present opponents with a fait accompli or to exhaust their ability to contest the change." So, we should be expecting lots of discussion in such a case. Insofar as Andrew Lancaster is engaging in lots of discussion then he's doing the right thing.
6. To resolve this complex dispute, the editors should be following our processes closely and carefully – processes such as WP:SPLIT and WP:RFC. If there isn't a clear process then naturally the result will be chaos and confusion. The onus is on all editors to do this, not just one of them.
7. It's not clear that any admin action is required yet. Perhaps editors need to slow down a bit and so a WP:1RR regime might be appropriate.

Andrew🐉(talk) 09:05, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

@Andrew Davidson: Just on that last bullet, according to me we are in a new situation and actually the high volume is mainly positive right now. (Many of Ermenrich's examples are from the past and quite different situations.) I think we'd all like Ermenrich to continue re-writing the article, and 1R would mainly affect them right now (or it might make others scared to contribute). In the background, there is a chance this article scope topic might hit a wall again. (The fact it got mentioned by me - "hand wringing" - is apparently what frustrated Ermenrich and led to this case.) But Ermenrich's idea of editing for a while and then reviewing this probably makes the most sense so far. I think other editors concerned in how to eventually handle this probably agree. See Austronesier and Srnec here. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:42, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

There's nothing complex about this situation at all. All we have to do is report on what scholars say. Without POV-pushing, that's quite easy. Anyone can produce a straw poll at any time. The issue here is Andrew Lancaster's constant WP:BLUDGEON tactics to get his way and that's not going to stop unless someone does something about it. Remove Andrew Lancaster from the picture and these articles will be FA-quality in no time. :bloodofox: (talk) 20:52, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose. I'm an uninvolved observer, here on this page for different business, but I had a look at the Germanic peoples page, and now I wonder what is going on here. Everybody seems to agree that AL is a good-faith editor with lots of merits. As far as I understand the accusations thrown at him consist mostly of a) slowing down the process by insisting on more discussion, and b) being wordy. These two things are thrown together into a WP:OWN violation, and now based on this people here are getting out of their way with demands for topic bans for the pages named and even every other page having the word German in them. Have you actually looked at the page WP:OWN? Nobody there makes a suggestion of responding with topic bans, which I consider one of the harshest sanctions available on Misplaced Pages, amounting to a block for those people where the topic ban basically covers the area of main expertise. Okay, I can talk easily here, as I'm not affected by AL's actions, but surely there must be other ways of moving the article forward than banning a good-faith editor in good standing and undoubted expertise. Please don't go this way. LandLing 11:36, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Proposal: Indefinite topic ban on anything and everything even remotely related to any Germanic people, Goths and all of their languages

I have had many long and always fruitless discussions with Andrew Lancaster on those topics, over a long period of time, opposing his blatant POV, including basing articles almost entirely on an utterly fringe source with a self-declared agenda: removing the Germanic peoples and their languages, and even the word Germanic, from history. Describing his tactics as bludgeoning is spot-on, because that's what he's doing, in an attempt to drive all other editors away from all articles that has anything to do with Germanic, so that he can rewrite them all to fit in with his fantasy world. - Tom | Thomas.W 09:53, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. - Tom | Thomas.W 09:53, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Observation. As far as I can tell my "POV" on various related topics (which has developed as I've learned and read, because it is basically source-based) has, over the last year or more, generally been quite close, at least as far as what we think WP should say, to those of Ermenrich, Austronesier, Alcaios, and Srnec. That makes it indeed ironic that Ermenrich threw POV in the above complaint, but could only find examples where Ermenrich was also in the same discussion, but agreeing with me. Editors on Germanic topics attract a lot of intimidating anger and aggression from editors and members of the public who see themselves as members of an on-going Germanic race, who academics are denying the existence of because they are dominated by ideologies and political correctness. I don't believe any version of the Germanic peoples article will ever avoid problems from that direction. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:37, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support. Andrew Lancaster has resisted constructive criticism. I truly offer this as friendly advice: The rule is, when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging! Andrew, stop defending yourself. Once again I point out the potential danger of mainstream "consensus" opinions. As an American I can assure you that fear of the tyranny of the majority is a bedrock principal for any free institution or government. Or I could sum it up with this query: Is it mainstream or is it groupthink? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dynasteria (talk • contribs) 11:30, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose. Tom's characterisation of certain sources as "utterly fringe" is absurd. Srnec (talk) 11:42, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose Tom's proposal seems intemperate but is not supported by solid evidence such as diffs. Note that this is their first edit in three months. Andrew🐉(talk) 11:46, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose It would be a travesty to sanction an editor for working hard on articles in a very Wikipedian fashion. North8000 (talk) 12:02, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Observation. I'm sure Thomas.W doesn't need my help defending his position, but to keep this discussion intellectually honest I would point out to Srnec that saying that someone's characterization is "absurd" goes nowhere to refute his argument. You actually have to formulate an argument of your own. To Andrew Davidson, the solid evidence has been offered by many others, above. It is, moreover, completely irrelevant how long it has been since someone edited. A person with a brain and the ability to think has the right to contribute. To North8000, the point has been made repeatedly that Andrew Lancaster has worked much too hard to the point of being an obstructionist and very definitely not in a Wikipedian fashion. But I support the direction of your question (see below). Dynasteria (talk) 12:42, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose. I managed to collaborate with Andrew on several topics related to Germani Cisrenani and Gallic-Germanic tribes of Gallia Belgica (eg. Atuatuci, Eburones, Caeroesi, etc.). Andrew just needs to be reassured that we're not going to write articles inspired by the essentialist vision of 19th-century scholars, and I'm sure that he's going to make efforts about the concision of his messages on talk pages. Alcaios (talk) 15:04, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Alcaios, it's not clear to me what that offer might consist of. "I will be reasonable and seek compromise as long as you meet my demands." (?) Dynasteria (talk) 16:02, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

My own main concern at the moment is that Andrew continues to deny that he's doing anything wrong. I don't think that speaks to him limiting his contributions.--Ermenrich (talk) 16:04, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

@Dynasteria: which demands am I making to Ermenrich who brought this case here? @Ermenrich: according to Alcaios above my sin is writing without concision. Yngvadottir, in contrast, thinks some of my recent concise posts were impolite, and she has a point. All such feedback is constructive and I certainly admit to such imperfections in my writing style and will keep trying to improve because after all life is more fun that way. Of course it is difficult to live up to the standards of other editors on Germanic peoples though, in terms of concision and politeness. To be clear: do you think the talk page of Germanic peoples shows editors who are all concise and polite?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 18:32, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

@Andrew Lancaster:, my remark was in reference to Alcaios's statement that you need "to be reassured that we're not going to write articles inspired by the essentialist vision of 19th-century scholars" in order, apparently, to limit your Talk page messages. This, however, is the Hobson's choice you've been offering all along. Also, since you asked, the question is definitely not what demands you are making of Ermenrich, the issues are those that have been laid out by concerned editors here and elsewhere. Primarily, from what I understand, that you commandeer the article itself and use the Talk page to enforce your POV. Is that not what is happening? Dynasteria (talk) 20:03, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

I can't really follow what you are saying. I think what Alcaios was saying, rightly, is that my concerns tend to be reasonable by the standards of most editors (or at least Alcaios) and so the situation is fine if we just all work together. (Of course, Alcaios is assuming most editors will not be insisting on 19th century essentialism. That might be an issue for you?)--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 20:46, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose. An indefinite TBAN is inappropriate, and I won't support any measures based on the reasons given in this sub-proposal. I don't see the "self-declared agenda", the use a "fringe source", the "fantasy world", and I don't believe his idiosyncrasies are "tactics". –Austronesier (talk) 17:57, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Very strong support, recommend blocking. Enough is enough—I have yet to see any benefit's to this guy's editing, which is indeed POV-fixated and generally poor in these areas. I've witnessed him aggressively pushing extreme positions into the article whenever given the chance and stonewalling anyone who dares attempt to discuss the matter on the article's talk page. These articles have plenty of individuals with formal backgrounds relevant to these topics working on them—we don't need the constant bludgeoning and half-baked POV-pushing. :bloodofox: (talk) 20:48, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Given what @Yngvadottir: has highlighted above, I now recommend blocking Andrew's account entirely. That is outragous. :bloodofox: (talk) 01:08, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

• Inclining support. Bludgeoning is on display here at AN/I, whether Andrew Lancaster defines it that way or not. I believe the editor knows that dominating a discussion by posting at undue length and in response to everything anyone says, and being dismissive in short posts, are both uncivil and potentially intimidating, and that drawing attention to the former as a problem is not an endorsement of the latter. Personalization and emotionalism while accusing others of being emotional are also on display here: initial response at this AN/I: "As can be seen in the calmer reactions above the only way I 'block' or 'own' discussions is by analyzing the pesky complexities which come from published sources."; "Now is not a good time to be over-dramatizing"; response to Ermenrich below: "getting irate"; "Angry people are attacking me, including now you."; "anti-academic battlers"; "So you are pretending YOU are calm and not triggered". Yet as seen in in a talk-page diff that I linked above, he's quick to take offense when asked why he is himself emotional on these topics. However, I would not have endorsed such a hefty penalty as a topic ban, except that I find his response to Thomas.W's proposal above to be quite frankly shocking. "Editors on Germanic topics attract a lot of intimidating anger and aggression from editors and members of the public who see themselves as members of an on-going Germanic race, who academics are denying the existence of because they are dominated by ideologies and political correctness." Andrew Lancaster sees himself as a gatekeeper and implies that those who disagree with him (he has provided much evidence on this page of his view that the scholarly mainstream is what he defines it as, for example: "I've been associated with the 'POV' of using mainstream scholars" from a diff I have linked) are tainted with racism. This is classic WP:OWN and WP:RGW, fellow editors do not have to accept such slurs for disagreeing with Andrew Lancaster or anyone else, and I am disappointed that anyone here is still defending his argument tactics after reading that. If he does not apologize and take back the implied accusation against fellow editors, I frankly advocate a block, not a topic ban. Yngvadottir (talk) 00:48, 24 July 2021 (UTC) Changed to Support, see below. Yngvadottir (talk) 03:03, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

I was not aware of this—that is outrageous and absolutely unacceptable. :bloodofox: (talk) 01:08, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

This ANI thread has certainly brought out the worst in Andrew, but a different user recently posted to the article talk page a Germans-as-victims screed under the heading "Let my people go" and complained that "white supremacist" was an offensive label. Srnec (talk) 01:23, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

@Srnec:: I am that "different user". You are welcome to your own opinion but I do not have to accept your slurs as examples of the "worst" in someone. My thread was not some superfluous "Germans-as-victims screed" and it is un-Wikipedian behavior to be dismissive toward me. Primarily, though, the fact that I consider "white supremacist" to be a racist term, because it is, is outside your province of review. If you are defending the use, then you are guilty of a racist (or is it political) attack on me. You know nothing about me, do you? Dynasteria (talk) 08:19, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Other than that you advocate for voluntary amnesia about the catastrophe that was 20th-century German history, no, nothing. EEng 14:49, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

@Yngvadottir: I certainly do not claim to be immune to emotion, or perfect in any way, but IMHO the reality of what other editors have been doing to ratchet up the emotions is relevant to this case and needs to be considered. Several of the editors here really have been part of a systematic push around Misplaced Pages to delete reference to specific scholars who they claim to have an agenda to "remove the Germanic peoples from history", and this programme has included enormous amounts of ad hominem and incivility. It does seem that Bloodofox's recent approach of claiming that I must resent linguists, and that historians I cite are hardly ever cited in academia, has now impacted upon the relationship between Ermenrich and myself. Thomas.W does not appear to be a very active editor but has pursued me whenever possible since early 2020. For several months in 2020 basically every edit of Thomas.W had one theme. I suppose I am damned if I mention this, and damned if I don't. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:46, 24 July 2021 (UTC) Also I did not mention "racism" but referred to the theory that there is a way of biologically or genetically defining who is and/or was Germanic. A weak version of the idea still appears in the article, and defences of this WP:SYNTH idea undeniably appear throughout the talk page histories, attached to specific Wikipedians and their long-term positions on other issues, including arguments against various academics. I don't think it can be denied that this topic is an intrinsic part of why this ANI case exists now. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:32, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment, Oh man, oh man. I'm not about to respond directly to anything Andrew Lancaster says on this page, otherwise, we're playing into his game, his usual technique, whether conscious or not (it doesn't matter which—same effect, and of course he can see the results—a royal clusterfuck). Look at his responses, classic bludgeoning— responding to every criticism—he's doing it right here in front of everyone, as Yngvadottir says above, because he can't help himself. Andrew still thinks there's nothing wrong with his excessive commentary on and bludgeoning of the talk pages of "Germanic peoples" and "Goths", and it's naive to think he'll change his style of obfuscation on these talk pages. I've given him the benefit of the doubt for too long, and now again he climbs up on his cross of victimhood, and dismisses criticism of his behavior, which seems rather arrogant. I say, stop engaging with him, it feeds what strikes me as something pathological. Carlstak (talk) 01:32, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
• Leaning support now myself but also noting there is an alternative proposal below that may thread the needle between retaining retaining the value of Andrew's contributions while restraining any disruption from their ebullient mode of contribution in this area. I've been following this thread since it was first posted a couple of days ago, but taking the time to review the context in detail before supplying my own take on the issues of the talk page. Initially, I felt a sanction such as a TBAN would be excessive for a number of reasons: it's self evident that the two articles in question here cover deeply nuanced topics and must summarize a complicated tangle of issues and sources which incorporate both empirical research and more subjective faire. So a discussion of this topic is bound to involve a fair deal of heavy posts and some eye-straining debate. And if a given editor is predisposed towards verbosity, that could combine with complex issue to produce particularly lengthy arguments, even where bludgeoning was definitely not the intent. Furthermore, looking at some of those particularized arguments, I'm often finding that in some of the situations where Andrew is making their more voluminous contributions, they are doing so in service of a good argument on a complex issue.

However, all of that said, the more I have reviewed the forgoing discussion on the talk pages, the more my concerns have grown and the more I understand the complaints raised here by numerous other editors in those spaces--sometimes even when I disagree with their content/policy read. Andrew definitely needs to internalize some lessons here regarding the fact that having the right position is sometimes insufficient if you can't make your argument in the right way. Which should not be construed as me saying they are overwhelmingly right: I hasten to add that because I am concerned Andrew will otherwise interpret this observation (as they seem to have other comments of partial support above) as amounting to evidence that their problems are mostly due to the complicated position they have been put it.

And ultimately, that is the biggest source of concern here for me: there is a pretty monumental amount of WP:IDHT going on in this thread and even if we let Andrew off without substantial sanction in this case, it'll only be to delay addressing the issue until another day if he does not come to grips with the fact that there are legitimate concerns about his approach here. Above and bellow, I see a lot of posts where he makes a wise tactical decision to admit that his approach isn't perfect, but then spends three or four times as much time addressing why he is really correct in various particulars. That's the approach to mea culpa of someone who has a lot of experience being diplomatic and demonstrating openness to discussion to a certain level, but who really isn't receiving the message about how much their approach needs to change in toto.

Andrew, to speak to you directly now, the sheer volume of feedback you have received about problems with your approach on those talk pages cannot be completely rationalized away as a product of the context, even if we were to assume (as you definitely should not) that you were right about every content question and simply were stuck with the difficult situation of arguing against superior numbers on a complex topic. I do think that North8000's approach below may be the way to go here--or that we should at least try this half-step first--but if you don't make real efforts to recognize and address some very much real shortcomings in your approach to how discussion must proceed in the constraints of this project, I'll be surprised if the topic ban isn't imposed the next time this discussion lands here, if it has to come to that. Snow 22:45, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support. I read Andrew's initial response to me above, then went away to give him a chance to reflect on the need for an apology. Instead I find not the tiniest shred of regret for implying that any and all who disagree with his position represent a racist position, not even an admission that he may have phrased his point overly broadly. Instead he doubled down on it initially: "Several of the editors here really have been part of a systematic push around Misplaced Pages to delete reference to specific scholars who they claim to have an agenda to 'remove the Germanic peoples from history'", and redoubled the aspersion in a later addition to the same comment: "Also I did not mention 'racism' but referred to the theory that there is a way of biologically or genetically defining who is and/or was Germanic. A weak version of the idea still appears in the article, and defences of this WP:SYNTH idea undeniably appear throughout the talk page histories, attached to specific Wikipedians and their long-term positions on other issues, including arguments against various academics." He has continued to attack other editors here on AN/I, accusing them of being emotional and of creating the problem by attacking him; for example to Ermenrich below: "There is too much exaggeration and dramatization. Take a step back and look. You are in control of the article. No one is working against you. I am not the main participant in editing or on the talk page, but if I post any question or concern I get attacked and parodied and long discussions ensue, all driven by the same editors who have attacked me here." Note the use of "parodied", which denotes deliberate misrepresentation, and which he has frequently used when he wants to say that his position is being inaccurately summarized. He has resumed frequent posting at Talk:Germanic peoples (in addition to making one small change to the article itself with a diffident edit summary); with his repeated serious aspersions in this discussion, that is inappropriate. It is apparent that no admin is going to block him, which is a pity because it might have been a sufficiently unambiguous signal as to cause him to reevaluate his argument strategy and his assumption that his article ownership is acceptable here. But instead I must advocate for the less preferable means of stopping his disruption of the editing process. Someone who tenaciously believes that only adherents of his preferred school of theorists should be allowed to work on articles about Germanic peoples, and that disagreement with him constitutes an attack that he is entitled to bludgeon against, should not be editing on such topics or posting to the talk pages. Other editors have expertise in the field and are more than capable of ensuring that the scholarly point of view he favors is adequately represented in the articles. Yngvadottir (talk) 03:03, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Can Andrew Lancaster suggest a solution?

@Andrew Lancaster: So, despite your best efforts, even those of us who applaud your work say that there is a problem at those articles as described above. Do you have a suggestion, even of some voluntary approach to try? North8000 (talk) 12:02, 23 July 2021 (UTC

• Support this question. Dynasteria (talk) 12:46, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support. I would also support some proposal by Andrew given that most involved editors agree his editing is problematic, if well-meaning. My preferred solution would be a one year topic ban, but perhaps there are other ways of fixing things up.--Ermenrich (talk) 12:49, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

To be clear, I am stunned at this proposal. "OK, you didn't do the murder, but you did do deconstructionism, so can we agree on a year?" I see neutral Wikipedians posting above don't see any justification for singling me out. There is nothing being blocked by me. That is nonsense. The article and its talk page might be terrible but the direction looks better than for a while and I am contributing to that according to pretty much everyone. Let's just keep working? I find it really sad and surreal that you have attacked me like this.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 18:41, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment The problem here is not a particular editor but some controversy about the topic. The solution in such cases is to attract attention so that more editors attend, express their take on the issue and so help establish a better consensus. This is best done by an RfC but this ANI entry will have a similar effect. Andrew Lancaster will no doubt take on board the various comments made and, in any case, their individual position will be more diluted by the input of others. The outcome we need to settle here is whether any immediate admin action is required and I'm not convinced that it is. This just seems to be a content dispute and so it goes ... Andrew🐉(talk) 13:15, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• Andrew Davidson, various attempts have been made to attract more editors to the topic, including by myself (see , ), however most are simply put off by the complexity of the discussion and accompanying walls of text and leave. As I've said before, I believe that the complexity of the discussion is largely the result of Andrew Lancaster's manner of arguing, rather than the subject being more complex in and of itself than other areas. This is not just a topic dispute, it's a behavioral problem.--Ermenrich (talk) 13:20, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• If it is not a content dispute why was POV included as part of the complaint? OTOH, while your examples of POV disputes are old arguments with Bloodofox where you agreed with me, the emotionally trigger to this complaint was basically at least a short-term content dispute: Andrew, you are trying to force the definition of a single clique of historians onto the article - this is precisely why no one liked how you had edited the article before (and other comments in a similar theme). Apparently to some extent you've been drawn into Bloodofox's idea that this is a battle of linguists versus historians, and Carlstak's and Berig's ideas that they are mustering a team of linguistic experts and I am in the way? Would this whole ANI case really have existed without those battling ideas constantly being floated, and making normal BRD discussions difficult?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 16:37, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• The reason I brought up POV is that you've been pushing the article in a certain way, and it took my actually getting involved in editing it to understand exactly how this is happening. Whether you mean to or not, the walls of text cause people to become irate and annoyed and then eventually to check out entirely. They decide it's not worth the effort to try to debate with you since no matter what they say you will post a wall of text that discards their opinion. I have agreed with you on many things - but I still think you are bludgeoning for a certain perspective (POV) in the article.--Ermenrich (talk) 17:16, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• (1) "Walls of text" is a silly thing to keep referring to in this context where longish posts are common among many editors on this topic including you, and some of the posts which annoy you were short. Let's use the word you've recently taken over from the anti-academic battlers to use on talk pages when targetting me: You say my posts are "deconstructionism". This is quickly becoming the most common word as everyone can check. But you don't mean I am a partisan of Jacques Derrida, you mean I look critically and carefully at definitions in sources. (As can also be checked.) Doesn't this match the aims of Misplaced Pages? Can you deny that this is what you mean? (2) Yes, I agree, this whole discussion here is all about certain people getting irate, including now you. Angry people are attacking me. Look at the observations of neutral observers though. I mean how bad is Deconstructionism right? The anger and intimidation has long been coming from the long term battlers who've been making these article talk pages bad for years, and not the people scared away by them. As Bloodofox warned me, "this is not my first rodeo". Be honest: editors including me and you have been repulsed by these article talk pages over a long period, and you have probably now taken a deep breath before jumping in just as I did a year ago. I want to support you in your efforts to move ahead, but this action you have taken against me can bring us back into the old battling circle. (3) You are saying this was not a content dispute but there is a POV problem. So you are pretending YOU are calm and not triggered by a small content dispute and instead there is some long-term POV problem which, before this ANI case, you have never mentioned. In fact, you still have not named it. Which POV am I pushing? Is it the one mentioned by Alcaios above? You are calling for a ban on a colleague so put it on the table please.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 18:15, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• @North8000: I have made friendly commitments to do my best above, and I am open to ideas, but we have consider the real context. Nearly everyone who posts on Germanic peoples could be accused of something, if our aim would be to wikilawyer. I must add that now regret the way in which particularly Carlstak abused friendlier discussions about reducing the number of posts - using them as a rationale to express outrage at anything and everything, even posting a complaint on the article page to notify everyone that I "broke my promise" by posting a message on a user page. We are now in an article rewriting phase, so several of us have been involved in relatively fast exchanges which (as Alcaios remarked) we should perhaps slow down. But in the meantime, the build up of Carlstak's off-topic, uncivil personal attacks and dramatizations has certainly played a crucial role in building up the emotions of some editors, leading to this strange case. If you look through the normal sorts of posts which regularly appear on the Germanic peoples talk page, incivility, long off-topic rants, walls of words, can all be found, but here is Ermenrich saying I must be banned because of my "manner of arguing". But not off-topic, uncivil, etc, - instead referring to me giving detailed careful readings of sources, and comparisons of different logical options. I do not know how unusual this is on ANI, but to me it seems Kafkaesque. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:42, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

What I see there is two articles that are mired down due to the complexity of the topics and issues. Differing viewpoints appear to be only secondary causes. Nobody there has a knack for moving forward out of the mire, and as a result there whoever does the most work (Andrew) is creating the most miring. My idea would be to archive all past discussions. Then everybody try your ideas as SMALL individual edits on a BRD basis, one or two at a time. If reverted, discuss those small individual simple edits in talk, making only succinct arguments. For those most focused on Andrew Lancaster, they can rest assured that these changes most change/reduce what he is doing. Do this for 2 months and maybe it will establish a pattern that keeps the process out of the mire. I could camp out at both articles for 2-3 weeks as a facilitator of getting that process going. North8000 (talk) 19:03, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

It might be a bit different than you think. On Goths, things are stuck because the two main editors have to use RFCs to change the article. On Germanic peoples, in the last few days things are moving ahead but I am not the one doing the most work or wanting to make lots of proposals. Ermenrich is rewriting the article. I fully support this, and my hope is that I can give support and feedback. Ermenrich came here because I raised one or two awkward questions which E felt would hold things back but this was an over-reaction and editing continues. Most of the examples were from past situations. The talk page is busy but better than usual in terms of being focussed upon sources and content. I do not want to predict too much about what happens after this has run its course, but I think it is not controversial to say that this is when the main editors expect to review whether the article scope is good and whether splitting is needed. I don't think the situation right now could be much better actually. On the other hand the philosophy of having me under watch etc sounds ok, but please double check the situation and adapt the idea?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 19:36, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Probably indicative of the state of affairs on both is that I've spent a few hours on the Goth article over 4 months and 15 minutes on the Germanic article and had no idea that either of the things that you described is the case or even what the current situation is.North8000 (talk) 20:25, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

@North8000: Agree with your proposal about small edits, succinct arguments. However, characterizing an editor's behavior as (basically) "doing the most work therefore getting the most blame" in a really tough situation is turning the whole discussion on its head. Perhaps the way to look at problematic behavior, instead, is to ask (much like an anthropologist or psychologist) what benefit is the person getting out of the behavior? The topic is no more complex and difficult than the people working on it are making it. Why is it being made unnecessarily complex? Well, the objective evidence suggests clearly that such behavior provides control. Who has been controlling the article for nigh onto a year? Well, I'll let others answer that, but it has been stated already that it's Andrew. I'm attempting to go about this in a friendly fashion. However, as Ermenrich stated, the problem is that AL has not admitted to doing anything wrong. Additionally, I was more than a little shocked to come upon this article late in the game (mine and the article's game) and find such blatant bias and, from my perspective, a kind of lurking hostility toward Germanic peoples. I'm too old to be surprised by much, but I remain shocked nevertheless. I'd very much like to see this article fixed, but part of doing that is recognizing that the morass is illusory and created by human beings. To remove the bias, responsible parties have to recognize it's there. Dynasteria (talk) 20:53, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

@Dynasteria: you are talking about past versions of the article. Ermenrich is rewriting the article and I am happy about that. Wait till that is done and then let's see if that is still biased according to you. But honestly, it probably will be right? In other words your understanding of why the article was biased is something not many other editors agree with so Ermenrich is not likely to change that problem for you?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 21:05, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

I think it is quite unwise to ignore the plethora of editors from the Germanic peoples page—nearly every editor there, in fact—who highlights major problems with Andrew Lancaster's editing style. It's obvious that he's engaging in WP:BLUDGEON and ignoring this fact will only cause the problem to continue. Without Andrew Lancaster consistently attempting to micromanage every aspect of the article with walls of text, we're finally seeing progress toward improvement. The article doesn't need a babysitter, it needs rejection of the constant bludgeoning stemming from a single editor. :bloodofox: (talk) 20:43, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Plethora? "Nearly every?" Not quite true is it? Micromanage? Ermenrich now dominates the article in every way. No one is blocking the article. My posts do not dominate the talk page in any way. The article is being rebuilt, and no one can blame me for that anymore which is great for me. When the weaker accusations are stripped away I am just the annoying guy who points to terminology and definitional concerns etc; reading the sources. Please stop poisoning the wells with all your battling talk. I do believe you are to a large extent responsible for getting Ermenrich to see this as a battle and take this action.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 21:00, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Plethora and nearly every, yep. Go ahead and count them—they're all listed in the section above telling you to knock it off, some more gently than others. The fact that you just can't help yourself is one thing but attempting to blame others for your behavior is something else entirely. The article is moving forward because you've been told to knock it off by no less than a crowd at this point, some of them--including myself--even bothering to seek a topic ban for you. Now that's an achievement. :bloodofox: (talk) 21:34, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

@Andrew Lancaster: I'm happy to wait and see. It appears progress is being made. Dynasteria (talk) 21:59, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

@Bloodofox:, it is good that we can at least agree that Ermenrich and other editors are able to work on the article with no-one holding them up, and that this situation began BEFORE this ANI case. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 22:35, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Some Observations on the discussion so far

In spite of a number of involved or uninvolved users stating firmly that a topic ban in this matter is out of the question, the users Thomas.W, Bloodofox, Dynasteria, Yngvadottir and Carlstak over the last few days have increased their rhetoric and their demands, first calling for a wider topic ban and now even for a block of Andrew Lancaster. When initially the charge was limited at WP:WALLSOFTEXT and OWN, we are now looking at the following complaints:

• AL pushes POV, as expressed by several editors. When AL asked for concrete evidence of his POV pushing, so far nothing was brought forward in terms of diffs.
• AL plays the racist card, to which bloodofox hastily agrees, although the evidence for this claim is rather flimsy, as in the "offending" contribution AL was just defending himself against the above POV accusations, and actually quite reasonably, not making any accusations against anyone in particular.
• AL emotionalizes and personalizes any discussion, also being impolite to others, citing an incident where AL politely explains his choice of words.

All this is being balanced by an increasing level of accusatory rhetoric that significantly overstepped the lines crossing over into incivility. Here are some examples of text snippets found among the contributions of the named editors: "describing his tactics as bludgeoning is spot on, because that is what he is doing", "attempt to drive all editors away", "his fantasy world", "enough is enough—I have yet to see any benefit's to this guy's editing, which is indeed POV-fixated and generally poor in these areas", "stonewalling anyone who dares attempt to discuss", "outrageous and absolutely unacceptable", "we're playing into his game, his usual technique", "royal clusterfuck", "he climbs up on his cross of victimhood", "strikes me as something pathological", "remove Andrew Lancaster from the picture and these articles will be FA-quality in no time".

To me it reads as "no matter what anyone here says about the lack of gravity of the charges brought against AL, or what people think about his good faith and qualities as an editor, no matter that North8000 offered herself as a mediator for the page, we want to see AL blocked!" To me this confirms my initial impression that after all it may not have been AL's behavior that ultimately generated this thread. After all this verbal abuse without substance, I am wondering if it isn't time to play the boomerang card. LandLing 13:21, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

@Landroving Linguist: LandLing, please define "rhetoric" for everyone. I'm aware of increasing reasoned and logical responses, that is, skilled and persuasive discourse. The word carries those connotations for me. Dynasteria (talk) 13:55, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

There's a second sense to the word: "language designed to have a persuasive or impressive effect, but which is often regarded as lacking in sincerity or meaningful content. You can safely assume that I used the word in this sense. LandLing 14:02, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I assure you I am always sincere and mean what I say. Therefore I reject your characterization. Meanwhile, I'm going through the links in your post (the evidence for your arguments) and it seems to me you lump various editors together and use one set of comments to delegitimize another set. Some of your points may be perfectly valid but it's hard to follow your argument. Ultimately, though, I don't want Andrew banned. I want better articles. Dynasteria (talk) 14:21, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

References

1. can't link to this non-event

@Landroving Linguist Please understand that these comments are the results of long-going (how long, two years now?) and mounting frustration with Andrew's continued domination of Germanic peoples' talk page, as shown recently here and here. The first one is the one where I reached my breaking point, since he posted it soon after pleas from Ermenrich and me to please be more concise. It's not just the length of his comments, it's the sheer volume of them—he overwhelms all other commentary, making it very difficult to follow the conversation. As pointed out earlier, he's made 860 of its edits (44.1%). The next most frequently posting editor has made only 179 (9.2%). Andrew has added 754,829 bytes of text to the talk page (56.2%), the equivalent of several very long articles, versus 220,121 bytes (16.4%) added by the other editor, Krakkos, with whom Andrew has also carried on a long-running and acrimonious dispute, from which Krakkos has since withdrawn. I believe the same thing has happened at the Goths article. Andrew has worn many of us involved editors out, and new editors who might contribute are scared away. I apologize to Andrew for the intemperate comments I've made, we've had some pleasant exchanges in the past, even quite recently, and to the community. I got carried away when the article was restored to a previous version that more people found acceptable, and other editors were getting involved again, but then Andrew resumed his characteristic very frequent posting, often at length. It seemed that the progress finally made was going to be dragged down once again. Carlstak (talk) 14:09, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

It is good to hear that apology from you, which will go a long way. Yes, I can see your frustration, but I also took a few hours this morning to read through the Germanic peoples talk page. Although it is certainly very long, there is nothing in there from AL that justifies a topic ban or even a block. Bringing this up here to ANI with this intent has been quite frivolous, to say the least. I hope you also can distance yourself from the more serious accusations that were brought against AL, because they don't really reflect well on those who brought them up to raise the heat in this discussion. LandLing 14:24, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for that, Landroving Linguist, but have you looked at the archives? It would take a long time to read all the commentary, I think more than half of it written by Andrew since he started posting. It seems that his responding at such frequency and volume is effectively what could reasonably be described as bludgeoning. The acrimony between him and Krakkos, expressed at great length, was extremely frustrating to other editors, and better illustrates why some of us have lost patience. Carlstak (talk) 14:47, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I, and the other edits who have concurred with my characterization of events, do not agree with you this report has been "frivolous". Just because you can't understand how difficult and demoralizing dealing with the sheer volume of text can be, most of it either focused on extremely minor points, or else trying to push the article in a completely different direction than most editors think it should. We've had endless discussions about whether or not the subject of "Germanic peoples" includes people who spoke Germanic languages or not. At Goths, there's been endless discussions in which Andrew has tried to remove any reference to linguistics related to the Goths. The archives are full of this stuff. It's just too much for most people. While I may not agree with some of Andrew's most strident critics, I do think that the constant bludgeoning walls of text are a problem that needs to be dealt with, and Andrew himself shows absolutely no sign of doing so.--Ermenrich (talk) 14:51, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

@Carlstak: @Ermenrich: It is strange to me that this whole thing was launched some days AFTER Ermenrich completely rewrote the article, proving that no one had been blocking this at all. If I was not actually causing a practical problem then the complaint is frivolous. In effect you are now admitting you just came here to complain that you find me annoying. I find a lot of people annoying too. I also think that there is a giant gorilla in the room, which is that there are no such problems in discussions with Alcaios, Srnec, Austronesier, or Ermenrich (the editors who cite sources) in many other related articles that get less attention. The reason for the difference is obvious. The Germanic peoples talk page has a relatively large number of high-impact intimidating editors who visit frequently and make uncivil comments about other editors, and their "agendas", but never cite sources or work constructively. They've been trying to get more people upset for a long time. Can either of you seriously convince yourself that I am the one who keeps bringing up Walter Goffart, and all the other arguments which are the ones that repeat over and over, and get mixed into every discussion, every time? Ermenrich can you imagine us arguing about that if it was just the two of us? Of course I will keep doing my best, but if you have to write constantly expecting that you are about to be attacked by people like Carlstak, or have your words twisted as throughout this discussion, over and over, it does not help concision? Ermenrich if we are honest, then those have been the distraction discussions, and I literally have no idea what you are talking about with your new accusation. Are you seriously saying that there have been "endless discussions in which Andrew has tried to remove any reference to linguistics related to the Goths"? What are you talking about? --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 18:24, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Andrew, if I’m honest I really just think you need to pledge to stop posting walls of text and maybe even take a break from the article. Even when you are being reasonable the sheer amount of text makes it feel like an attack. I do think you’ve gotten too fixated on not Goffart specifically, but a direction of scholarship that tosses out all other disciplines who need to be in the article. That is why this was brought to ANI: I certainly don’t enjoy reporting you here, but it didn’t seem like I or anyone else was getting through to you.—-Ermenrich (talk) 18:30, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

@Ermenrich: There is too much exaggeration and dramatization. Take a step back and look. You are in control of the article. No one is working against you. I am not the main participant in editing or on the talk page, but if I post any question or concern I get attacked and parodied and long discussions ensue, all driven by the same editors who have attacked me here. You are not an angel watching from heaven. Two necessary conditions for this ANI case, and the difficulties of keeping discussions neat on the talk page are definitely: (1) Editors personalizing their frustrations about normal content-related challenges; (2) Editors distorting each other's positions. You and Carlstak both now seem to have picked up those bad habits. Concerning your Goths aspersion you are not really answering, so switching to generalizations: yes, there are differences between branches of scholarship which give us challenges. HOWEVER, none of us editors who read the sources could get confused and angry about this if we were working without all the extra noise on a less well-known article. No-one is trying to toss something out, unless you are, so you're summary of my concern with your explanation about the new opening lines is frankly an uncritical distortion that evolved straight from "denying the German race" meme. You have not really read what I was saying, because instead you brought it here. (That was my only long recent post - because careful.) If you want a short TLDR version see my question to Ealdgyth. In response to your "take a break" proposal, unfortunately in less friendly WP editing situations you have to be careful about making friendly compromises which can be twisted into precedents, admissions or promises. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 20:09, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Andrew, I'm going to break my promise to myself not to interact with you any more. After repeated pleas to ease up on the frequency and length of your comments, you ignored those pleas, as you've done all along, because you don't see a problem with your voluminous and very frequent commentary that makes it difficult for other editors to see what's going on, as has been remarked many times. Yes, it's true that Ermenrich reverted the article to a previous version from which to start anew, and progress was being made, but you immediately took to the talk page to register your concerns, as you always do, with multiple, wordy points of 5,092 bytes. I thought, "Oh no, here we go again. The article is going to get bogged down because of Andrew's refusal to consider the comfort and limits of the patience of the people who are forced to read all his verbiage, unless they simply withdraw, as many have done). To give other editors an idea of what I'm talking about with the excessive commentary, obfuscating in effect, I present this interaction timeline between you and Krakkos. Warning: it takes a while to reach the end, after much scrolling downward. The interactions on the talk page of Germanic peoples starts at 2019-09-07. Carlstak (talk) 19:09, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

@Carlstak: Honestly, such posts are a problem, not a solution. You could certainly be described in recent times as someone who posts long off-topic posts, and is deliberately trying to disrupt the work of another editor.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 20:26, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

So, there's a large crowd of editors here discussing Lancaster's numerous editing problems, and you think it's the crowd's fault? Now that's a creative takeaway. WP:LISTEN. :bloodofox: (talk) 20:36, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Andrew and all how about this?: Andrew's very Wikipedian work is appreciated, but the sheer quantity of that work and discussions at the 2 subject articles is causing problems. Andrew will voluntarily cut their amount of work and posts at the subject two articles down to about 1/3 of their previous amount for a month, details on this to be interpreted by Andrew.. After a month the agreement expires but it is hoped that the new pattern established will continue. This ANI will be closed but after 2 weeks concerned persons can reopen a new one if they see fit. North8000 (talk) 19:41, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I'd like something a little bit more clear than that. What does 1/3 mean, exactly? That main problem is just his lengthy talk pages posts, as well as, I think, a myopic focus on excluding "Germanic-speaking peoples" from the article "Germanic peoples".--Ermenrich (talk) 19:52, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

@Ermenrich: First 2 sentences: do you have a suggestion? Long third sentence has no connection to reality, and is a specific content issue that you're now introducing. I don't think that's practical. (If you really believe it then it shows how much of the current problems are problems caused by personalization of frustrations, and distortions of other editors. This is a content issue, but whatever else happens I would eventually like to have a bit of your time for a discussion to clear this up. I also feel frustrations, like you. It is always horrible to see someone misreport you over and over.)--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 20:22, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support North8000's proposal. And I also appeal to more restraint from other editors, however "annoyed" they may feel. Can we agree to commit ourselves to DS-like standards in the talk page and the article? –Austronesier (talk) 20:09, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support for North8000's proposal, and for Austronesier's call for restraint. LandLing 20:18, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
• North, I appreciate your creativity, and Austronesier I think your words are gold. Sounds doable if done in a reasonable way. However I'd point out that my normal rate of work on the actual article is low and not really the subject of this complaint, so I think the focus is on the talk page? You are going to need to define it though. Are you thinking about something like a number of posts per day and/or bytes limit?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 20:22, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

After scanning the history, what about maximum 10 talk-page posts each running 7-day period, maximum size of 1500 bytes per post, and 1700 bytes per day. I presume this is much less than one third of my normal output for some periods. I don't see any reason to be limiting anything on Goths or the Germanic peoples article itself. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 20:56, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Andrew, the intent is to get it down to about 1/3 of your overall rate of activity on those two articles, and yes, it's mostly about talk pages. And it's structured as self-regulated, self-determined by you so details such as you propose are not necessary. But if you want them, fine. The intent is not to create a new rulebook, it's just to get you to do less on those articles, especially the talk pages. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:24, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose. Unacceptable accommodation for an editor who has bludgeoned, attacked, insinuated, and represented himself as the victim right here and is now bargaining for the right to continue acting as a self-appointed gatekeeper. The chilling effect of both his argument tactics and his insinuations is apparent and has been documented here; subject-matter experts and good writers have been driven away by Andrew Lancaster's acting as arbiter of what Goths and Germanic peoples can say, he is unapologetic, and the problem is not that he has a wordy style or that he is being attacked, or even that he is arguing for a valid scholarly point of view on contentious topics; the problem is that he has a detrimental effect on the articles, up to and including not abiding by minimum rules for civil interaction and not accepting the validity of criticism about his approach. Yngvadottir (talk) 03:03, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Personal Attacks by user:TheLionHasSeen

The editor has repeatedly made personal attacks, including statements to the effect that I should be banned. All the edits I have made have been in good faith but the user has assigned hostile motives to my edits. Talk:State_church_of_the_Roman_Empire DeusImperator (talk) 20:15, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Hello, in my defense, I agreed to collaborate peacefully, with mediation from another more experienced Wikipedian, per the talk page listed. Nowhere did I state you deserve to be banned, but that it appeared to be WP:AGENDA pushing, which has been subject to prerequisites for being blocked. Banning, however, is the most extreme of measures Misplaced Pages takes, and that means something drastic. - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 20:28, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Blocking agenda pushers and then calling me an agenda pusher??? What agenda is that supposed to be? You accused me of bias, but where is that bias even evident? Your immediate accuse me of bad faith edits when I stated in the edits that I merely brought the article in conformity with the cited work. Also, it is evident from the discussion that you have hostility to Catholics editing demonstrated by your statement I was greatly alarmed as they revoked the long-standing text stating "which recognized Nicene Christianity as the Roman Empire's state religion", for "which recognized Catholicism..."; those contributions were aggressively reverted, the same for Edict of Thessalonica, as upon investigation of the contributor, they appeared to be a Roman Catholic.. DeusImperator (talk) 20:43, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

At this rate, I have no further response toward you. I do not have the ability to block anyone; I merely assisted in doing so for others who pushed agendas on Horn of Africa-related articles, per example. I did not verbatim state you were pushing an agenda, rather implied (or have attempted to imply, judge however you will) your actions constitute a possibility of it. How can I have hostility, when I am Catholic by the way? I may not be a Traditionalist Catholic, but I am Catholic. Also, bear in mind there's a thing called conflict of interest. Good day. - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 20:46, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

DeusImperator, I’m no sysop but if TheLionHasSeen, called you “biased” or an “agenda pusher” it generally would fall under casting aspersions than personal attacks, I do not see anything here so egregious that it would rise or be classified as a personal attack. Celestina007 (talk) 20:49, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Where is anything in my edits which can be construed as pushing an agenda? Where? What is the evidence for making such a claim? What actions can be construed as evidence of this possibility? Anyone can claim to be anything on the internet. if you claim to be "catholic" is there not a conflict of internet on your own part? Given that you are editing pages that are related to Orthodoxy are you, yourself, not in a conflict of interest? What exactly is the evidence for your claim of agenda pushing? DeusImperator (talk) 21:08, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

This is quite hilarious now; you continue to have arguments pertaining to the defense of Roman Catholicism alone according to your contributions, regardless of the faith given; some, apparently, have also been through apparent insults and "ALL CAPS". Pertaining to pages relating to Eastern or Oriental Orthodoxy, if there was a conflict of interest my contributions would have been reverted and cast aside ages ago. Several administrators and seasoned Wikipedians assist me in contributing to Misplaced Pages the proper way. I have stated in the talk page for that state church, a balanced approach must be presented without the jargon from the East (Constantinople) and West (Rome). Your argument is poor, and I refuse to continue going in a merry-go-round with you; consider yourself ignored until an administrator assists. - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 21:13, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

"This is quite hilarious now; you continue to have arguments pertaining to the defense of Roman Catholicism alone according to your contributions." Where is any evidence to make this claim? My most recent edit, which you attempted to overturn, was the inclusion of Oriental Orthodoxy and the Churches of the East. DeusImperator (talk) 21:27, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

To the Admins, this editor has repeatedly accused me of pushing an agenda, conflict of interest, and bias, without any demonstratable evidence of such and continues to do so as evidenced in this exchange. DeusImperator (talk) 21:30, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Any recently active administrators, please intervene. They will not stop here, nor on the talk page for State church of the Roman Empire. I gave them warning I am ignoring them, and I continue to be responded to and directed toward after verbatim telling them twice on that talk page. Nihonjoe, Liz, Paul Erik, any recently active administrator; I have grown irate at this moment. They do not persist to stop even when asked to be left alone. - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 21:53, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

the only harassment here has been from that editor. The only time I edit is when I am researching for my own book research a subject and find a glaring error in an article. For my own book research, I try to find the cited source in the articles and read the cited material. It seems that I have stepped on the editor's toes editing pages that are of interest to the Orthodox and it appears the user is in fact Orthodox from the edit history of the user and appears to push an Orthodox perspective. Hence the reversions of my edits. Perhaps, it was the reason the edits of inclusion 'rivals' to the Orthodox such as the Oriental Orthodox and Churches of the East were reverted by him. DeusImperator (talk) 01:29, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

User:Celestina007

I don't enjoy reading the ANI, let alone reporting an editor but it is antithetical to our goal of creating an online encyclopedia that anyone could freely edit in a collegial environment if we ignore conducts that are injurious on a large scale to our editors. User:Celestina007 is an experienced editor with interest in Nigeria-related topics and a "self-acclaimed UPE fighter". There is no doubt about her knowledge of Nigeria-related topics but her often unsubstantiated false accusation of UPE is concerning, worrisome and destructive to the project. I believe that something urgently needs to be done, as failure to act will give an impression that false accusations and similar behaviors are acceptable here. Today, Celestina007 tagged an article written by me in 2019 as UPE without evidence. When asked to substantiate their claim with evidences, they removed my comment without a response or any evidences whatsoever. However, I am not here because I was falsely accused of UPE but because this pattern of behavior from Celestina007 is disruptive on a large scale and should immediately stop. On closer review of this editor's contributions, I observed a large scale accusation of UPE without evidence and newbie bity.

Here are few examples of false accusation of UPE

• " @Yamla, you are spot on about the “violating WP:PAID part” I can categorically confirm as a Nigerian that 90% of any article pertaining to “businessmen” “entrepreneurs” “organizations” “musicians” and “actors” created by any Nigerian editor is undisclosed paid editing". This false accusation of Nigerian editors without strong evidences is not only insulting to the Nigerian editing community but also constitute an harassment.
• False tagging of a new user, User:Zvandofarira2 learning to create new article in good faith as UPE (here).
• False UPE tagging a good faith editor and another unsubstantiated allegation sockpupetry. The editor perceived this as bullying, and attempt to force them to quit editing Misplaced Pages. The user hasn't edited again since the accusation
• False accusation of UPE and aggressive demand for response
• Falsely accusing a brand new editor of sockpuppetry
• Irritating users with false claim of UPE
• Falsely accusing a legal intern who wrote about a well-known and notable lawyer of UPE and ignoring any sense of reason. Celestina who is expected to welcome new editors in fact took the article to AfD without a WP:BEFORE and the article was kept (see the AfD)
• Another unsubstantiated and accusation of new editor of sockpuppetry.

All of the above examples are from July 1 alone but randomly looking at their talk page archive, it looks like a long-term problem that has gone unnoticed for years . While we appreciate users who are enthusiastic about Misplaced Pages, users with this behavioral pattern should never be tolerated here. Beeblebrox advised this user to find something else to do, while they responded to Beeblebrox, they failed to learn from the advise and continue to falsely accusing users of UPE. I'd leave this here to allow the community to determine whether the conducts of this user with regards to UPE accusations is right. UPE is a criminal offense at least in the United States per WP:UPE. False accusation of crime is serious and should be treated as such. Regards. SuperSwift (talk) 20:51, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment — Just Another day, with more disgruntled staging a siege against me. Even after both onel5969 & I told you here that the UPE template wasn’t intended for you , you somehow still tried and made it about you. We literally both told you the UPE tag wasn’t intended for you oh well. Furthermore this isn’t accurate as there is literally no dispute here. Celestina007 (talk) 21:00, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

I also found Celestina007 to be acting in a way which was far too aggressive, even if the recipient of their messaging was an UPE. At User_talk:Totalpoliticsuk#Sockpuppetry_warning they accused the editor of insulting their intelligence, stated they would get the editor indefinitely blocked, and them to both "quit Fucking with me". Even if this user was an UPE I'd consider this too far. Whether this combative approach is effective at deterring actual UPEs or not - and I doubt it is - it lends itself to substantial collateral damage and the furthering of a hostile atmosphere on the project, which we should not tolerate. Sam Walton (talk) 21:07, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

@Samwalton9, correct and indeed otp, but this was me before getting advice to tone it down which I have to the best of my ability upheld. Celestina007 (talk) 21:35, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm glad that recognize that, Celestina, because frankly I find the behaviour in that thread beyond the pall for a volunteer workspace on this project. Your comments literally read like you think that you are a hardboiled detective from a 70's crime drama interrogating a criminal suspect: "Don’t you dare insult my intelligence, you know how it is, either you comply with our rules or I see to it that you get indef blocked" -> "quit Fucking with me." -> "Don’t push your luck.". Sam is absolutely correct: no matter how certain you are that you have ferreted out a COI editor--and frankly, I also have concerns at the level of self-assuredness you adopt on the basis of your evidence, but even assuming you are correct, the following principle holds--it does not abrogate your from responsibility for scrupulously following the standards of WP:CIVILITY, a pillar policy of this project. You are not the en.Misplaced Pages Special Prosecutor for Undisclosed Paid Editing and you need to drop this unnecessarily aggressive mentality.

Now, you say you've reformed your approach, and it's true that the thread Sam links above is the worst of what has been presented here, but it still looks like you come at editors with an air like you are cleaning up shop from some position of authority persists. Based just on what we have seen here, I think even at this early stage in oversight of your behaviour, I would support a topic ban for you relating to accusations of UPE; I do not think you have the right temperament to be active in this area on this project. Even if you were right about every single one of your suppositions (and again, I'm far from convinced by your reasoning in each of these cases), your approach is still highly flawed and inconsistent with the measured, impersonal, dispassionate approach that is both expected and most effective in COI review.

In short, I would seriously suggest you consider voluntarily backing away from this area: your own talk page suggests that you see the problem with actively seeking out ("hunting" as you put it) COI, and I think you need to take your own advice there, even as regards UPE you think you have spotted in the wild, as it were. You don't have to ignore what you consider problematic editing either: just consider taking yourself out of the equation by bringing these matters to WP:COIN or an admin when you think you have sufficient evidence to warrant examination, and ignoring your gut impressions in all other circumstances. I don't think I like your chances for avoiding a sanction if you just continue of the present course of grilling everyone you suspect of COI like they are just daring you to pull out the proverbial rubber hose. Snow 22:21, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Snow Rise, Snow, that is exactly what I’m saying that since June when I received advice from a functionary on how to handle suspected there I have made deliberate attempts to do just that, I pursue things through the proper channels via COIN and ANI, I have filed at least one report at each venue this month. rather than confront the situation as I would have done prior the advice and even when I UPE template editors I tell them exactly why I left the tag, snow please look at analysis of the diffs I did below, I understand how this would come off as rather tough but in order to appreciate this you would have to understand that I am under a calculated siege. Not only is this report wrong it is rather baffling as the OP misunderstood an action I carried out, even when told it was a mistake by myself and another editor they still brought it here when it was clearly established that the action did not concern them. Celestina007 (talk) 22:39, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

@Snow Rise, Snow, this is me two days ago literally telling Rich_Smith the importance of explaining why a UPE template should be accompanied by a personal message. Celestina007 (talk) 22:46, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment  – This sweeping generalisation is demeaning to the entire WP:NIGERIA community and the good work all the good faith editors there do. I raised similar concerns on this board about a month ago but only a few of the participants noted this unchecked behaviour. Something needs to be done about this kind of behaviour that makes the environment toxic for others and basically undoes the efforts of the good people that go to different parts of Nigeria to recruit new wikimedians who inadvertently get burnt. Kind regards. Princess of Ara_(talk) 22:12, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Note — The editor above Princess of Ara was topic banned because of me. Once again an attempt from another disgruntled editor to get back at me. I am taking my time to explain everything so you all can understand the siege i am facing now. Celestina007 (talk) 22:27, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Personally I don't think that comment is objectionable--though I presume it is substantially inaccurate. As you can see above, I have some significant misgivings about Celestina's approach here, but the comment you are presenting as inappropriate is that of an editor expressing an opinion (perhaps an exaggerated one, but good faith nonetheless) about what they perceive the extent of a problem to be in a given content area. Our editors must be free to share their perceptions about the nature and expanse of disruptive behaviours on this project, even where it incidentally reflects a negative impression of a large class of contributors. No behavioural policy or principle of community consensus limits the scope of good faith commentary in this regard, and it would have significant negative knock-on effects if we did adopt such a rule.

Now, you could argue that this comment (particularly the 90% figure) is evidence of Celestina's bias in this area, which in turn reinforces their propensity for jumping in with accusations on limited evidence: that I might buy. But we cannot afford to treat observations about problems in certain content areas as a PA, merely because they happen to incidentally involve a class of person that might take umbrage to said observation. Celestina is entitled to their opinion when it comes to the numbers here. What they are not entitled to do is act upon them without limitation. Snow 22:38, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Celestina007 keeps making reference to my being topic banned in discussions like it means I'm not allowed to have an opinion. Same thing she tried at AfD. I clearly linked the ANI discussion with the closing statement so this is not a discovery. Princess of Ara_(talk) 07:22, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• Celestina's comment, that 90% of articles from her country on ' “businessmen” “entrepreneurs” “organizations” “musicians” and “actors” " would hold true for many other countries also ( Allowing for some rhetorical exaggeration, ) At least as far as “businessmen” “entrepreneurs” & “organizations”are concerned ( I don't know enough to work on the other two categories), somewhere between 80 and 90 percent of the articles of these types from my own country are also paid editing, tho more of them are being disclosed than used too be the case. Anyone who doubts it should come work at AfC for a while. DGG ( talk ) 19:04, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Analysis of the diffs from OP

• Their first diff has nothing to do with any matter relating to UPE. Their second diff against has nothing to do with UPE it shows me moving an article back to Draftspace. Their third diff is me asking an editor how they got an image in the article as their “own work” Their 4th diff is me placing an AGF sock tag on an editor who knew our mark up and knew how to add scripts to their commons.js in their first 20 edits. Their 5th edit is me placing a placing a UPE tag and initiating a discussion(not against policy).
• I would analyze all the diffs but I have shown a pattern of mixing real diffs with deliberately misleading diffs that have nothing to do with UPE (or even me) to inundate the readers. They have stalked my page ever since and this is exactly why i wrote out on my page before now on how to address UPE on my userpage before this. There was literally no reason to bring this to ANI, it had long been established to the OP that by both myself and onel5969 that the UPE tag wasn’t intended for them several hours ago but it was still an opportunity to bring me to ANI.
• For transparency sake, even though their first diff perhaps was an error, what was quoted there was indeed a comment I made to Yamla in response to them declining a block, but again they are being being deliberately deceptive this if the diff here, they said i had no strong evidence but the comment in itself had two cogent facts, that happened here on Misplaced Pages. I find it disingenuous of them not to mention that I am equally a Nigerian.
• I however remain unfazed since as I have in no way violated policy, I’m conscious of this hence every and any UPE or AGF sock tag I leave on the tp of an editor I always try to leave a rationale so as to avoid situations as thus If SuperSwift says they dislike drama boards then one begs the question why they still deemed it fit to bring a problem which was established not to be related to them to ANI.
• I dislike coming here, but I hope the diff analysis of this goes to show you what I’m talking about when I say they intentionally(or mistakenly) include diffs that have no business with me negating UPE and mix it with accurate diffs in bid to inundate the community and force a mirage.
• Since I received advice(in June) from Beeblebrox on how to tackle UPE without less confrontation I have done do so by reporting appropriately to either ANI or SPI, whenever I UPE template an editor I always give a personal rationale. I would provide diffs shorty to portray this, using a mobile device give me a minute to do that.
• This is getting tiring the OP mentioned the diffs are from July 1 but haven analyzed them can you now see subtle deception at least three of those diffs were false, in their own words in diff 2 they claim I UPE tagged an editor but please can you all take a look at diff 2? Can you all see the deliberate deception?
• Is deliberately being deceptive and outrightly lying about someone else not in itself warrant a boomerang block? Celestina007 (talk) 21:29, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Regarding the analysis of the diffs:

• Their first diff has nothing to do with any matter relating to UPE. Except that it does; a blocked editor's appeal was denied, and Celestina007 chimed in to make that wide-ranging statement about Nigerian editors and UPE, even though the editor wasn't blocked for UPE. Her comments made it about UPE.
• Their second diff against <sic> has nothing to do with UPE it shows me moving an article back to Draftspace Celestina007 moved the article to draftspace (not back to draftspace) immediately after tagging it for UPE.
• Their third diff is me asking an editor how they got an image in the article as their “own work” Actually, the third diff is to a UPE Warning discussion Celestina007 started (followed by a sockpuppetry warning below that). And as SuperSwift mentioned, that editor has not edited since their conversations with Celestina007. That could be intepreted as evidence of guilt or evidence that a new editor was bullied away.The rest of the OP's diffs seem to be what they say they are. I do not see a pattern of mixing real diffs with deliberately misleading diffs by SuperSwift. Schazjmd (talk) 22:37, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

@Schazjmd,

• @Schazjmd, In my third bulleted point, I expressly point out their error in diff one, and I provided the correct diff the editor was talking about. Celestina007 (talk) 22:54, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

• I don't see deception, subtle or overt, in the original report. That the 2d diff is to the move rather than the preceding edit in which the UPE tag was applied isn't "deceptive". I do see that this was how Celestina007 told SuperSwift that the UPE tag wasn't intended for them: Whilst I largely remain unimpressed with some articles you have created I don’t think anyone was accusing directly of UPE. I do however concerns about you holding the NPR perm as I do not deem you competent enough to hold that right. Schazjmd (talk) 23:03, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

@Schazjmd, like, I literally was not talking to them about UPE, agreed a tough manner to say “no it was intended for you” I accept and take responsibility for that but they went off like I had falling into their trap or something, I believe i can count on one hand how many times I have interacted with this user, then they began replying me as though I had specially offended them. Like we literally told him/her this wasn’t intended for you. That was like an hour two hours before this ANI, I assumed they understood rather than come back to my page and say “what are you implying” “what did you mean”? boom! I’m hit with this ANI. Celestina007 (talk) 23:12, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Schazjmd, I’m largely offended by this ANI, this is quite personal to me, look at my TP and see how I’m living with a life long health condition and I’m here helping out within my capacity and doing the best way I can, they claim I target Nigerian editors but this is me reaching out. Not once have I ever had a problem with any co Nigerian editor who is in good faith editing here, even when my self and good faith editors butt heads we reconcile immediately I edit via a mobile so I can’t do some things with ease but when you can under “Appreciation and Barnstars” and take a look at the very first Barnstar I received. The attempt to paint me a villain is not true please I beg go through my TP and see how I have extensively helped my co Nigerian editors and other editors regardless of race, sex, or country. I’m at WP:TEAHOUSE helping out also. Celestina007 (talk) 23:21, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

If @SuperSwift claims they do not appreciate being here just as I hate being the center of any form attraction also this can be handled by a conversion between myself and them(should have handled in this manner from the start) Baring in mind that they opened this ANI because they believe I left a UPE tag for them which was established by both myself and onel5969 that the UPE wasn’t intended for them. Celestina007 (talk) 23:31, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Celestina007, the OP was clear that they were not opening this conversation because of the UPE tag or an accusation against them, but because of a pattern of behavior. I don't think anyone thinks you're a villain. I know that you contribute a great deal to the project and that you spend countless hours reviewing AFC submissions. It's clear that you take pride in your efforts against UPE. I think what's a bit concerning is that you've taken on UPE as a personal crusade, and that in pursuit of that crusade, your approach might appear to be that of a vigilante.I used to patrol recent changes. What I learned was that by spending a lot of time reverting obvious vandalism, I was beginning to view all edits as suspicious and all unknown editors as suspects. I wonder if by immersing yourself in UPE/COI, you might be experiencing a similar phenomenon. Maybe spending more time on other aspects of editing and a bit less trying to ferret out UPE rings and take down the "bad guys" might not be better for you? The world is not going to end if an undeclared-paid editor slips in an article that is dubiously notable, and it most likely will get caught eventually. Schazjmd (talk) 00:15, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Schazjmd, I promise you I am not actively looking out for bad guys, asides UPE, I’m happy at the WP:TEAHOUSE, infact on my Userpage I advise against actively hunting for UPE, but if I stumble upon one I report to the appropriate venue, I come here to enjoy myself, I really do love editing here. Honestly I’m tired mentally, I have explained over and again that I play by the book, but editors keep trying discredit me by bring up my past of incivility which I taken responsibility for. Celestina007 (talk) 00:41, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Siege mentality

There's numerous references above, by Celestina007, to a 'siege' mentality, to an 'us v them' situation, and some kind of vindictiveness in this report - plus taking things '"quite personal". My view is this is deeply unhelpful, and potentially speaks to a bigger problem around the attitude that this editor takes to UPE and similar actions. When handling all new editors, regardless of your suspicions, editors may be firm, but ultimately must be fair and kind. I question whether someone who displays such an abrasive, combative approach to handling new editor contributions can achieve this level of kindness, welcoming and fairness as consistently as is required. Daniel (talk) 23:49, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

(examples:)

• "with more disgruntled staging a siege against me"
• "I understand how this would come off as rather tough but in order to appreciate this you would have to understand that I am under a calculated siege"
• "The editor above Princess of Ara was topic banned because of me. Once again an attempt from another disgruntled editor to get back at me. I am taking my time to explain everything so you all can understand the siege i am facing now."
• "They have stalked my page ever since"
• "I’m largely offended by this ANI, this is quite personal to me"
• " look at my TP and see how I’m living with a life long health condition and I’m here helping out within my capacity and doing the best way I can"

Daniel (talk) 23:54, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

@Daniel, Daniel please look at my contributions at the TEAHOUSE and I believe that answers that. Daniel this is still me look at the latest message. The siege I reference is more of revenge from editors I have reported to the ANI which resulted in them being topic banned or their sensitive user rights removed an example is this. I have diffs, which shows me begging editors join WP:NIGERIA. Celestina007 (talk) 23:59, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

The third sentence of your response is yet another example of what I am saying. This is not an 'us v them' situation, and seemingly being gleeful or discrediting editors because you've had them "topic banned" or "their sensitive user rights removed" is exactly what I'm talking about. I am not going to engage further on this, I am happy for others to assess what I have written above and either agree or disagree with it. Daniel (talk) 00:03, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment — It would be disingenuous of me not to mention that SuperSwift(OP) answered a very very imperative question I have been asking in the last two years, I have in the past always asked certain editors, the question of if they ever received coaching because they were too new too be too that proficient with either templates or our markup, the editors never replied, but today Super Swift mentioned in our of their replies that I had “frustrated” some of his students. This answered a question I had been asking for a while now, I don’t go to any social gatherings so that this happens is something I’m hearing for the first time today. I believe it would largely explain editors with less than ten edits creating a somewhat decent article, why they didn’t say this all this while I really do not know. It would have been so much easier. AFAIK UPE or COI isn’t the problem but failure to disclose this is the problem. Celestina007 (talk) 00:10, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• I should also add that with this new awareness of editors teaching people how to edit Misplaced Pages (in a formal event or non formal/Personal manner) I see no reason why I can’t work with Super Swift moving forward, for record sake I’d state prior June 2021(before new techniques of handling suspected UPE was advised to me by a functionary) I agree that some comments I made were harsh and in retrospect whilst reading some of them I too cannot believe I made such harsh comments. I know I have been quite harsh to what seems like UPE) but as God is my witness, I honestly cannot remember a situation whereby I have crossed WP:CIVILITY or made unfounded accusations anyone(after functionaries told me a better way to deal with UPE, yes sometimes I do forget to insert the personal message to editors I UPE template as to why I believe their article to be UPE or why I believe they are actively engaging in UPE, but for every article I affix the UPE tag on, I largely have evidence, some of which I just send straight to WP:ARBCOM, if they contain material that is sensitive. I honestly do not know what else to say. I’m mentally drained at this point. Celestina007 (talk) 00:33, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• I've interacted with Celestina007 over the past year and while we have been friendly, she reminds me quite a deal of Jytdog in that she does a lot (quite a lot!) of good work and receives a great deal of support from fellow editors, but she is often in danger of crossing the line regarding privacy & civility, especially towards new editors.

I respect much of the work that she does but have told her that a) she can not tell editors that she can get them blocked (if you believe this, have a RFA) and b) she can't demand that other editors answer her probing questions as if she is in a position of authority and could prevent them from editing if they don't comply. I've seen her acting tougher on new editors than most admins would be and complain elsewhere that most admins aren't, in her opinion, doing anything about paid editing. Like the siege comments, this seems like shades of a savior complex to me.

I don't come here to ask for sanctions because she does contribute so much but my comments on her talk page haven't had any effect and I hope this discussion will lead to her moderating her approach and tone and to not see herself as the paid editing police. As others have said here, even if some of her accusations are true, it's something Misplaced Pages can and does deal with every day. It won't lead to the demise of the project. Liz 01:48, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• Thank you for your comments Liz, moving forward I propose not to (a) see myself as boarder patrol for paid editing as I have largely described on my UP even before this ANI, (b) to provide a rationale for UPE templating an editor, (c) adjust my tone even further to be more accommodating. Celestina007 (talk) 02:16, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

UPE tagging of articles and templating editors without evidence is an integral part of the problems we are discussing here. When you tag an article written by a good faith editor as UPE, you are directly accusing the editor of UPE and that’s unacceptable. I respect your contributions as an editor but when it comes to false UPE accusation, it is unhealthy and has sent lot of good faith Nigerian editors away from the project. Also, you haven't shown in this comment that you understand the problem. So, I think a formal restrictions such as the one I proposed below will be in order, atleast for now. Kaizenify (talk) 06:56, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment I have to agree with the idea that Celestina should step back from the language used in some of their UPE accusations. They have done some excellent work in that area, but the attitude is very much that of a gunslinger sometimes. There was a recent case at COIN where I ran into this. After defending what looked to be a good-faith editor (one who Celestina accused very strongly but presented almost no evidence beyond the idea that it was a gut feeling), Celestina commented to another editor that " I literally laughed when I saw an editor defending this account." Well, I was the editor defending the account. I've chased down what must be hundreds of UPE and COI editors by now; I have a pretty good radar on who is and isn't UPE and COI. The thing is, I am on the same side as Celestina, I'm not some COI or UPE editor trying to game the system. The further statements by Celestina are at a level of mistrust and aggressiveness that is just not necessary: "That I’d tell those supporting this COI promotional gibberish “I told you so” is an eventuality. I have unwatched the AFD, Misplaced Pages indeed does get the editors they deserve. My accuracy when nabbing UPE is near perfect, that a non anti spam editor is arguing with me in my field of expertise is just funny." Some kind of commitment on the part of Celestina is needed that the attitude is going to change. I feel quite badly for the portion of innocent editors who are on the receiving end of that attitude. If there is no willingness to change, I'd support the UPE topic ban. --- Possibly ☎ 07:02, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Let me also add Celestina's afd comments to me for the same COIN issue, which are basically just a personal attack: "@Possibly, I’m not looking to sway you, I have brought this to AFD, if you can’t comprehend sources and tell a reliable source from a reliable piece or tell when a piece is a sponsored or an extended announcements not fulfilling SIGCOV, that’s really no concern of mine, it’s many people who can’t tell the difference so I’m unfazed by your rationale." The thing is, I have a ton of experience in this area. There's no need to insult people who disagree with you. And the AfD closed Keep. There was no proven juice behind any of these Notability/UPE/COI accusations and the ensuing personal attacks. There was a point where it was time to AGF, which was soundly rejected. That has to change. --- Possibly ☎ 07:23, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Proposal

Considering that this is a pattern of behaviour that needs to be nipped in the bud to protect our editors and the project, I am proposing a ban from WP:UPE for Celestina007 as a mildest solution that has a good chance at resolving the problems highlighted above. User:Celestina007 is also warned that further hostility towards new editors may result in a block.

• Support as proposer. Kaizenify (talk) 05:58, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose – I agree with much of the commentary above (particularly by Liz and Daniel), and I hope Celestina takes it to heart. But such a broad topic ban seems distinctly premature, especially when she's committed to do better in the future. At this point, AGF mandates that we take her at her word. For what it's worth, I'm fairly confident that Celestina doesn't mean to appear hostile: more likely, she just sometimes gets carried away in her zeal to keep spam out of the encyclopedia. That's certainly a problem, but it shouldn't require the blunt instrument of formal sanctions right now, particularly when she's already agreed to address the issue. Again, I hope and trust that she'll think more carefully in the future about her words are perceived, but at this point a topic ban appears unnecessary and disproportionate. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 06:31, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose, agree with EW above. I expressed my concerns, above, because I had concerns (something I had witnessed over a number of months, not just today, although I didn't have bank of diffs to demonstrate it so I focused on what I read today). I don't think the best remedy in this situation is a blanket ban for Celestina from this area of editing. What I do think is required is a) an undertaking from Celestina to improve moving forward (which has been given); b) demonstrated improvement of this occurring; and c) increased scrutiny from uninvolved editors & administrators as to ensuring b) occurs in the coming weeks and months, with a good-faith discussion one-on-one with Celestina occurring should someone believe the standards aren't being met. Cheers, Daniel (talk) 06:41, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose and suggest closure with no action at this time. In Celestina's defense, she has made many valuable contributions to the project and even the words/actions being criticized in this thread are obviously intended to improve Misplaced Pages. I've seen how Celestina has learned and grown as an editor since she began editing. I've seen her take on board past criticism and change how she approaches different tasks, and so I believe that she will consider the concerns expressed in this thread and moderate her approach to other editors in response. Schazjmd (talk) 07:12, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

This isn't the first time this user is promising to change their behaviour . As early as June 2021, the user made the same promise in this ANI thread, here, here. Here we are again with another promise. SuperSwift (talk) 07:16, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Noting that the four diffs are all promises to do better, and all about a month old. --- Possibly ☎ 07:40, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• Extend some WP:ROPE. This is a close call and the irony is not lost on me that I said I could imagine myself supporting just such a measure above. There's a lot to be concerned about in diffs presented here, including in recent interactions and to some extent into the present discussion. But Celestina seems to be genuine in their assertions that they are working on assimilating to community standards. I'm also concerned that the ban here would be an atypical one, as I think about it. A usual narrowly tailored topic ban can be easily followed without chance of putting an editor in a position where they have to choose between reporting bad faith behaviour and risking sanction or just letting obvious examples go to preserve their own editing priveleges. While I'm not saying that this is something we absolutely should not consider if the behaviour persists and Celestina shows they cannot keep perspective in these areas, I'm also thinking a higher threshold is needed before we hobble and contributor in this fashion. By the same token though, I personally think Celestina has gone right up to the edge on this, even considering their well-advised decision to listen to community feedback and continue working on reforming their approach. Afterall, there was a bit of WP:IDHT up until that point, and only the fact that I believe them when they say they are frustrated but still willing to listen that tips the balance for me. I certainly wouldn't hesitate to flip my !vote to supporting the TBAN if Celestina ends up back here for behaviour even remotely resembling the pattern discussed here in this thread. But this community is in the habit of extending some rope in these situations and I'm willing to lean into that here. Hopefully I won't regret the !vote later. Snow 07:22, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose The "siege" commeent is unfortunate, but this user has genuinely caught more legitimate UPEs than not. Furtherore, per EW and Daniel, this user does appear to have taken to heart the comments about unnecessarily un-AGFAGF comments, and quite honestly considering their previous behaviour I have no doubt that they will rectify the problems listed. BrxBrx(talk) 07:33, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

I think if we're going to avoid a sanction here and hope for the right attitude from Celestina moving forward, we need to frame this as a question outside of their batting average for catching UPE's. First off, we need to be stressing that a certain tone is required regardless of how certain they are that their concerns are legitimate. Second off, I genuinely think that Celestina needs to reassess the baseline level of evidence they have before they leap into action on some of these cases. There are examples in this thread where their presumptions far outstripe the evidence they are working from. If Celestina doesn't learn to temper their approach in both regards, I have little doubt they will end up the subject of another thread here eventually. Snow 07:41, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose - Clearly keen as mustard, does some good work, and seems to have the right ideas if somewhat overzealous methods. A number of people have provided sage advice, both in this thread and previously, and I would strongly suggest that (regardless of outcome) Celestina takes a step back for a while and carefully considers all the feedback they have been provided and what they will be doing differently in the future (not just in terms of behaviour and interactions with others, but where they see themselves fitting into the somewhat strange world that is Misplaced Pages). My sense of optimism and what I have seen thus far gives me some hope that, if given this opportunity to do so, they will seize it and move forward as an ongoing positive contributor. However I would also suggest that if this does not pose a wake up call, nothing will; if we have to come back here again, I doubt many people would consider that we haven't reached the end of this particular length of rope. --Jack Frost (talk) 08:05, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support Celestina007 promised to change and stop casting aspersions and accusing editors of UPE without evidence on 23 June and 24 June 2021, in the ANI report initiated by Princess of Ara, as can be seen here, here and here, in her words, yes I accept that I have been ferocious and I have taken responsibility for that.... But yes, like I said I take responsibility for my less than civil approach, moving forward it wouldn’t be confrontational.... Some comments have been raised, yes I do take responsibility for some of my harsh methods of dealing with UPE.... I have seen the “cracks in the wall” and I’m going to correct them, moving forward i shall continue to tackle UPE but in a less confrontational manner, they continued However, I do agree that more often than not I tend to tackle what I believe to UPE ferociously, and moving forward I’m going to be a less confrontational but still as effective and further added I have learnt that moving forward I should do things like you have suggested. This has been a learning curve for me & I do appreciate your input. Rather then changing, this user even increased in their battleground behavior, accusing more good faith editors of UPE without evidence. As can be seen here on 9 July 2021 and in this AfD. Their comments in another AfD from 4 to 8 July 2021 and this COI thread as pointed out by Possibly shows they've refused to learn. Accusing a whole country (Nigeria) editors as UPE without evidence as can be seen here on 21 July 2021 is the worst personal attack I've ever seen here on Misplaced Pages. I'll also add that if this continues, I'll not hesitate to support an indef block. Best, —Nnadigoodluck███ 08:34, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

  To misquote Shakespeare; The gentleman doth protest too much, methinks. --Jack Frost (talk) 09:36, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose - for the simple reason that Celestina is a net positive and giving them such a topic ban would cause more harm to the project than good. I have no doubt that they will reflect on what has been said here and adapt. Spiderone 08:45, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• (Non-administrator comment) Oppose. Celestina is an extremely competent and valuable editor, but they have a hot temper and sometimes go overboard. But I am pretty sure that this can be worked on and that they can improve. My account is less than 1 year old and I barely have 5k edits, so nobody has to listen to what I say, but I would advise 1) always starting at a level 1 when it comes to UPE/sockpuppetry user warnings, regardless of the previous user warnings that the editor has received, 2) not adding personal comments to the templates and 3) exercising extreme care when discussing with the users accused of UPE/sockpuppetry. I would just like to note that the OP is also exaggerating quite a bit. As an editor who cleaned up the article written by the "Legal Intern" (which saved it from deletion), I am not personally convinced that this was the work of a volunteer editor, so I'm not sure on what basis the OP calls Celestina's user warning "false". Regarding another article that she "falsely" tagged as UPE, it's worth noting 1) that Celestina also proceeded to clean it up very thoroughly from its promotional content and 2) that anybody who would have taken a look at the article in its original state, before Celestina's work, would also have suspected that it was the work of a UPE editor. JBchrch talk 09:08, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose – yeah, I'm not seeing this. While I concur that Celestina should raise their bar for what constitutes indisputable evidence, we're yet far away from a point where I would call their behaviour "chronic and intractable". And certainly, there are worse things to be overly passionate about than UPE. AngryHarpy‍ 10:57, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support  – With all this kind of counsel and more from experienced editors over time, I think a long enough rope has been given. So many overzealous fans and newbies have gotten burnt needlessly. Kind regards, Princess of Ara_(talk) 16:52, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose While I have spoken to Celestina about toning down her approach, I did not suggest (as seems to be implied way up above) that she should stop working to detect and prevent UPE, and do not see a need for tban. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:46, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose - deciding UPE issues is one of the trickiest issues done by reviewers. There are certain tells which are dead give-aways that a person either has a UPE or COI issue. Their contributions are incredibly valuable, particularly in the area of articles regarding Africa. They have said they will tone down their rhetoric, and we should AGF. Onel5969 20:33, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Non-admin Comment: I'd go further, and say that UPE isn't just tricky, it's downright impossible. The two key rules of WP are "Don't say anything unless you've got good evidence" and "Assume good faith", and with UPE, neither is realistic. You can never prove UPE because no one here has access to another editor's personal finances. And it's impossible to defend yourself against a claim of UPE. It ultimately risks descending to the conversation: "You're being paid!", "No I'm not", "I don't believe you", and that's flat contrary to assuming good faith. I wonder whether UPE is really a problem that anyone should be working on. Focus on the edit, not the editor: if the text is referenced, balanced, and reasonably well-written, what more do we want? The point about WP is that it is so strongly peer-reviewed that there is no advantage to paying. Frankly if a person is daft enough to pay an agency/writer to fill "their" article with self-aggrandisement the most likely outcome is someone else will nominate it for deletion, so they might as well just stick their cash in the shredder (and that's the message we should be making loud and clear). But where I think we very much need people like Celestina is in assessing articles about African situations and people; Celestina seems to me to have local knowledge and expertise at knowing when the sources are good or unreliable, which I for one don't. Elemimele (talk) 22:04, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose. Let's make no mistake, we are under siege from paid editing, whether disclosed or not; if we don't do something soon, that siege will become a tsunami. Editors who are prepared to stand there with a finger in the dyke are few and far between, Celestina is one of them and deserves our thanks for that. However, intemperate or hostile comments or remarks are not acceptable here, and can weaken the effect of otherwise worthy actions. Celestina007, could you see your way to a rather more laid-back – or perhaps even courteous? – attitude to other editors, while keeping up the good work you do? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 22:22, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

@Justlettersandnumbers, I am thankful each time for an opportunity such as this as they are a learning curve for me. The answer is a solid “yes” infact, from the last ANI that resulted in a boomerang on the OP what I got out from it is that rather than be confrontational I should just use the WP:COIN board to report issues or go off wiki and report directly to Arbcom. I have tried and have done so, even when I UPE template an article and not the creator per se or even when I leave UPE template on the page of an editor I actively try and initiate a dialogue with the user as to why I have done so. I am always grateful for an opportunity to learn, what I have taken out of this is, to be conservative about my POV as noted above (making an assertion that 90% of Nigerian editors, (I’m Nigerian also) engage in UPE was out of line, I could have said “a good percentage” and that would be statistically correct, one only needs to go to up work and anyone can see for themselves, in fact when I made that comment I referenced two cases where experienced Nigerian editors who had gained the communities trust have been nabbed in less than ethical practices on Misplaced Pages. Let me also add that i apologize to SuperSwift for the error I made, although I did erroneously make that edit, corrected myself, and told SuperSwift that the UPE tag wasn’t intended for them, I told them in a snarky manner unbecoming of a senior editor. So it’s like I said, I would definitely continue my good work, still be as effective and definitely would tone down on my tone. Celestina007 (talk) 22:41, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

I also want to apologize to the community at large, and Princess of Ara, in particular, because I indeed put them under scrutiny from there first edits. Celestina007 (talk) 23:27, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• (edit conflict)Oppose per Justlettersandnumbers above. Celestina007 may sometimes be overzealous, but UPE is WP's elephant in the room and I trust them to take on board the issues raised here. Definitely a net positive. Miniapolis 23:30, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Moving forward and from advice from both ARBCOM and a sysop here actively engaging in anti UPE I know exactly what to do when tackling UPE in the most appropriate and civil manner, I do not envisage ever being reported here ever again as I know just exactly what to do in tackling UPE, it would less confrontations and more civil action by using the appropriate channels, which I have largely tried to follow since the advice from ARBCOM in June. Celestina007 (talk) 23:34, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose I've been working with Celestina for some time, and I think he now understands the best way to stop UPE is not to waste time and energy into blaming them, but just to remove their articles in an objective manner. Expressing negative feelings here to people who are knowingly ignoring our rules evokes is almost never necessary, and runs the risk of inappropriately expressing negative feelings towards people who may not realize that they are breaking the rules, or who may be good faith editors who are unwitting copying the promotionalism that is so rampant here or even deliberately copying it because it is so pervasive they think it's what they want. Like most active people working with UPE, I have made occasional incorrect accusations and identifications--and so have the most experienced admins and arbs working in this area. I apologize for them--but I always remember and regret them. But as Celestina said above, we are under siege in this area, and we need to keep working--but doing it as dispassionately as we can, though it is difficult to feel dispassionate towards people who are trying in bad faith for money to destroy the value of Misplaced Pages.

I understand the concern of the OP here ; I gather from their usertalk they are an organizer of a Misplaced Pages club at a university. From my own long experience with such activities, it takes experience to prevent such activities from being manipulated by those who would do promotional editing, and even greater skill to prevent naïve new users from submitting work which is so unsatisfactory that it will be taken as deliberate promotionalism . Most new groups go through a considerable period where they gradually learn to avoid the submission of grossly improper contributions due to inadequately supervised training. Most new groups improve as the trainers get experience. Because of the disruption of conventional in-person training session by the pandemic, the last two years have been especially difficult--it is very much more difficult to supervise training when its done remotely, and the performance of even my own chapter is nowhere near as good as it used to be. (This has been of course a problem for teachers generally, not just WP.) The solution is not to reduce standards, but also not to express anger at people who are learning under difficult circumstances. It's hard for anyone to get this right-it's difficult for me as well as for Celestina--I know I am not as patient with poor contributions as I was 2 years ago. I recognize the frustration of someone leading training when their trainee's work is declined, but they should realize this is the opportunity to learn how to improve their own role.

But Celestina is learning, just as the rest of us are learning. My main activity these days is reviewing declined AfCs looking for those I can rescue. Celestina's declines are as accurate as anyone's, There will sometimes be disagreement between reviewers, but there are very few instances where I or another reviewer will accept something she's declined. Working in this area can be demoralizing, and it requires effort to focus on the minority of articles that can be accepted, not the many that can't be. She's done very well at keeping up her morale, and is doing the work more calmly than at first. What she really needs, just as all of us workers at AfC need, is for more people to join in this. It would be utterly unproductive to try to remove one of the hardest working and most accurate people in this area. DGG ( talk ) 01:44, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support I don't believe that allowing the user to continue engaging in frivolous UPE accusations, newbie biting, and general obnoxiousness is a good idea. With all the diffs that have been presented (and apparently ignored), if we're planning to allow Celestina to walk out of this discussion without any editing restrictions, it should be done strictly on a last-chance basis. This doesn't leave me with a whole lot of hope for their future though: they just don't seem to get what's being said to them. 78.28.44.31 (talk) 11:25, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Failure to close an RfC despite consensus has been achieved

An RfC was opened in 2021 Cuban protests' talk page on the inclusion of a cause in the infobox: . In light of a consensus being achieved (a rough count shows that votes for Yes account for more than a double than those for No):

• I closed the RfC and posted a formal closure summary , and edited the article accordingly to include the discussed element.
• Davide King , reverted my closure of the RfC and my edit on the article. The editor that originally started this RfC added this note: "Note to Closer: There is quite a bit of discussion on this topic both above and below this RfC, which may be useful for any closure." Despite consensus has been achieved and despite the discussion ongoing at this point is by the same single user that reverted my closure: , , , , , , , , , , .

Please, this requires arbitration. Ajñavidya (talk) 00:15, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Notes to admins and my version (Davide King)

As far as I am aware, the closure must be done by an uninvolved admin, certainly not by an emotionally involved user who took part to the RfC, i.e. the same user who took me here. For context, they also previously did not respect removal of the contentious (see this discussion and revision history, such as this, while I respected embargo's removal due to an RfC being opened about it). As noted by the user themselves, the RfC opener BSMRD noted "Note to Closer: There is quite a bit of discussion on this topic both above and below this RfC, which may be useful for any closure." Rather than asking an immediate closure, the RfC opener actually asked the closer (an admin, not an user who took part to the RfC itself) to consider the whole discussion, which in my view actually means to take all the necessary time to review the RfC before the closure. The user who took me also seem to ignore that Misplaced Pages is not a democracy based on voting or the numbers of 'yay'–'nay' but whether the arguments are based on our policies and guidelines; it is not up to them to "declare consensus", that is the job of the admins. If there is anyone to be sanctioned, it is not me. Davide King (talk) 00:33, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

When did I ask for an early closure of the RfC? Do you any evidence of that? Also, the contentious piece that you removed wasn't being discussed in a RfC at the moment I re-added it (I don't recall doing it while on RfC, but if did, I wasn't aware). You say: " while I respected embargo's removal due to an RfC being opened about it." Are you sure? Consider and . Ajñavidya (talk) 05:07, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

By prematurely closing the Rfc, when that is the job of an admin or uninvolved and experienced user. Did you ignore the part of the edit summary where I literally stated "try possible, bold compromise for the infobox" and tried to appease with you by adding 'authoritarian', 'lack of civil liberties (freedom of association and political freedom)', which you wanted? See also Misplaced Pages:Be bold, this, and this. The RfC was whether to add or not the embargo, not whether to add it with a caveat among pharentesis, which would be a compromise, and I made the edit to see what other users thought and if they supported this possible solution and compromise. Clarified this, if you want to reply me back, write me to my talk page; this is neither the moment nor the place to discuss this. Davide King (talk) 05:57, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Just wanna clarify that these two conversation that you had ( and ) were not with me, but with other editors; so I don't know what you mean by bringing them up here. Ajñavidya (talk) 03:38, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Ajñavidya, it appears that you attempted to close the RfC the same day that it was opened, with a result that favours a position you have advocated for on the talk page in question, and as such, David King's reversion was entirely appropriate. RfCs generally run for at least a month before there is a procedural close and can in fact run for much longer if contributions remain steady. One of the major advantages of an RfC is that they pull in opinions from editors disinterested in the content of the article who can give an unbiased policy read on an editorial dispute. They absolutely should not be closed by someone who has already been party to the underlying dispute, and certainly not mere hours after the RfC is opened. The 4:2 strict !vote ratio (which you described technically accurate and yet at the same time rather misleading terms of a 2:1 ratio) is not much of a consensus when you consider there have been a half dozen !votes total and you really haven't waited for input from the broader community. Furthermore, note that despite the sometimes confusing nomenclature, "!vote" consensus discussions are not decided purely on a straightforward numerical support basis: rather the closer will need to consider the result in light of broader community consensus as codified in project policies, which is another reason why said closer should ideally have no previous involvement in the dispute.

Please let the RfC run its course (there is WP:NORUSH here) and then let an uninvolved party close the discussion--it needn't be an admin, but ideally would at least be someone with experience sorting consensus conclusions from community discussions on contentious issues, and (again) should definitely be someone without "skin in the game" as the idiom goes. If push comes to shove, and you find yourself waiting after the 30 days, you can always ping me and I'll make an effort at figuring out where consensus has landed. You can also make such a request at WP:AN, WP:VPP, and other central community discussion spaces. Regardless, there is no behavioural issue here with regard to David which require community intervention. Snow 00:48, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll definitely consider it. Ajñavidya (talk) 05:08, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Ajñavidya, consider reading WP:NACINV, which states: "editors should never close any discussion where they have !voted", which appears to be the case here. As noted by Snow Rise as well, this seems like a premature close, having been done only four days after it started. Isabelle 00:59, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

The outcome for "yes" is pretty clear, but the lack of awareness that would lead one to think they can close a discussion that they also voted in is pretty staggering. Zaathras (talk) 01:04, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Overturn and promptly reclose. Ironically I was multi-task preparing an WP:AN/RFC request for close when I saw this. The RFC should be closed, the general result was clearly correct, however Ajñavidya never should have preformed an involved close. Especially not given the vociferous minority opposition and entirely predictable challenge. Ajñavidya I don't know how much (if any) experience you have in closing, but I'd be happy to answer questions or offer advice in this area. I have experience and I find it a very interesting specialty. Of course the first advice is to to avoid any closure where anyone might credibly claim an actual or perceived conflict of interest. The cost of a potential challenge outweighs any hoped-for benefit of getting it done quicker or "easier".

• Informational note: Davide King please be aware that RFC closures do not require an Admin. A closure may not be reversed solely because the closer was not an Admin. Alsee (talk) 20:22, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Alsee, I was not aware that the closure may not necessarily be an admin but by any uninvolved (key word) and experienced user (which is not the case here, as Ajñavidya voted), as clarified by Snow Rise ("it needn't be an admin, but ideally would at least be someone with experience sorting consensus conclusions from community discussions on contentious issues"). This does not justify the fact an involved user (who voted) closed the RfC and claimed consensus. To all other involved users, please keep in mind that Mathglot also opposed early closure. See this and Mathglot's "Very strongly opposed to any snow close ... I am firmly against any premature closure until the normal Rfc period has run its course, which if I'm not mistaken, is 18 August. I'm sure I appeared too late in the process for anything I say now to have any effect, but I feel it's important to get the data out there and on the record." There is no need to rush. Davide King (talk) 20:47, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi Alsee. Can you be more specific at to why you think an early closure is appropriate here? Looking at the RfC in question, it seems appropriately approached, has only been open a few days, and currently has a 6:6 support/opposition !vote ratio, including responses from regular editors of the article and fresh perspectives, with continuing engagement from new FRS contributions. So in pretty much every observable respect, this is the polar opposite of the narrow circumstances in which community standards authorize a WP:SNOW close.

Mind you, I'm open to the possibility that I missed something here (in part because I believe I recognize your name as an old hand in project spaces), but as a veteran editor you surely know that you need a better argument than "I think the premature close by an involved editor was flawed, but still would have resulted in the right conclusion." That's not sufficient cause to abrogate the usual WP:RfC/WP:Consensus standards and close the discussion when feedback is ongoing and has, thus far, not resulted in a concrete consensus. There's WP:NORUSH here, so why would we take the extraordinary action of shutting down an RfC, just a few days in, with an evenly split !vote, with feedback ongoing? We need a strong procedural argument for that beyond that you think it would result in the better outcome for the article, because that would very much beg the question and subvert our consensus building process. Snow 21:55, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Snow Rise I appreciate you recognizing me and, given how unreasonable my post must have seemed to you, phrasing your comment as respectfully as you did. There was a misunderstanding - we're both sorta right chuckle. There are TWO RFC's on that page. You appear to have looked at the bottom one, which is indeed closely split. The RFC at issue here is the top one. This one has been open a few days longer, but still admittedly short. My close analysis, if I were an uninvolved closer, goes like this: The initial low-information votes on the RFC were 2-Yes vs 3-No. I would give little weight to the first 5 votes. The next person posted a pile of sources. From that point on the RFC went 14-Yes vs 3-No, with a majority explicitly citing the posted evidence as conclusive. Basically the RFC ended the moment the evidence was posted. Regarding early closure, aside from the outcome already being clear, this is a high traffic active-event page. Readers are not being well served. The page is sitting on The wrong version because (in my opinion) the majority side are following polite Wikiquette while the minority side have (in my opinion) used dubious tactics to push whatever they want while the RFC is in progress. I'm tempted to edit the page to the majority version, but I am generally averse to editing any issue under active RFC. In this case I actively anticipate any majority-edit is likely to be warred as long as the RFC is open. Waiting a month basically allows the minority to stonewall the page until it (mostly) doesn't matter anymore. I normally take the long view of getting it right eventually, but there are a LOT of people currently reading this active event. Alsee (talk) 00:40, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Ah, see I thought there must be some rational explanation for that incongruity! Please forgive my confusion on the matter: there was a lot of topical and procedural overlap on those two RfCs (including involved parties), so I was not able to discern from the forgoing discussion that it was the former rather than the latter RfC at issue--though in truth I should have looked for the reverted closure in the edit history anyway, as a matter of prudence. Anyway, thank you in kind for the courtesy and understanding of your own response, as well as for the clarification. I will have to review my comments above to make sure that the feedback provided remains germane with regard to all the specific, but thankfully at first blush I think my previous commentary (up until my immediately previous post to you) mostly applies equally as well to the former RfC as much as the latter, being rather generalized to some features they share in common. That said, and turning a more particularized eye to the correct RfC in question, with a current !vote of ~15:6, and only six days in, I'm still not sure that I would personally feel this is a case of SNOW: it's a borderline case, I feel, and I tend to err on the side of further discussion in those circumstances. But with appropriate context, your argument and perspective that it does in fact meet the burden certainly looks much, much more reasonable! Snow 01:28, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, Alsee. The truth is that I don't have experience closing RfC's. I was basing myself on WP:RFCCLOSE, which states in point 2: "The RfC participants can agree to end it at any time, and one of them can remove the {{rfc}} template." I wasn't aware that there were additional rules to the process further than those four listed there, and since the consensus became pretty obvious 3 days after the RfC was started, I thought I could proceed. This was not the case, and that's my bad. Ajñavidya (talk) 22:22, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Repeated WP:BLP violations in the Zina Bash article.

See the recent article history. , and in particular the repeated addition of content like this.

In brief, two contributors (User:TrueQuantum and User:Attic Salt) have been tag-teaming to insert content into the Zina Bash article, in contravention of WP:BLP. Since it has been made perfectly clear, in reliable sources already cited in the article, that claims that Bash made a 'white power' sign are based on nothing more than 4Chan conspiracy-theory trolling, the material being added, which implies that Misplaced Pages takes this nonsense seriously, is a gross violation. Further comments about Kavanaugh are likewise improper, given that they simply have no bearing on events that actually occurred, rather than on a particularly silly conspiracy theory.

Any responsible contributor would surely understand that if there is a dispute about possible WP:BLP violations, the proper course of action is to resolve the matter through dispute resolution. Since however those responsible have acted in the manner they did instead, I suggest that appropriate sanctions be taken against them.AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:28, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Well, when I asked you what specifically is the BLP violation that concerns you: , , you did not provide an answer: . Attic Salt (talk) 01:36, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

There is no 'I didn't like the answer I was given' exception to WP:BLP. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:40, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

I should probably have also linked the earlier WP:BLPN discussion too - comments there seem relevant to assessing what happened later. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:38, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

I fully protected the article for a week and will watch the talk page for a while. Let me know if the issue cannot be resolved with normal discussion. Johnuniq (talk) 05:28, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Trust me when I say that I do not want to be involved in this dispute. What first got my attention were complaints that Marquardtika was tendentiously editing Bash's page to such an extent that the editor was making attacks and accusations of sexual assault against other BLP subjects who accused Bash of making the controversial hand signal. This was particularly evident against another BLP subject Eugene Gu where Marquardtika overrode an RFC to put sexual misconduct accusations against him not only on Gu's page but also on Zina Bash's page as well. Upon further investigation I saw that Bash's page was edited in such a biased, non-neutral fashion that it looked more like a PR defense or reputation management for Bash than as an encyclopedia entry. I want us all to adhere to our policies in WP:BLP. My thoughts on this are simple. Either we discuss Bash's highly publicized hand signal during Kavanaugh's highly publicized confirmation hearing in a neutral way considering all reliable sources from all different angles or we nominate this article for deletion. We can't have a PR style reputation management entry for Bash because that undermines the credibility and neutrality of Misplaced Pages. TrueQuantum (talk) 15:05, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

TrueQuantum, you have repeatedly added BLP-violating content to the article. Specifically, "It is unclear whether Bash made the hand signal to distract from Kavanaugh's controversial confirmation hearing." The reliable sources aren't ambiguous at all here. Vox says "Bash was not making a 'white power hand signal'" and called the incident "fake news." The Washington Post says "The idea that the hand sign is a secret symbol for white power owes its mainstream spread to a viral troll campaign aimed at making liberals and the media look gullible....The gesture is not considered a real hate symbol by organizations such as the Anti-Defamation League." If you want to nominate the article for deletion, go ahead. But you need to stop confusing our BLP policy with "PR." Marquardtika (talk) 15:29, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

I have not edited the article in any way other than enforcing the 3RR policy by reverting some of your contentious edits. Reverting your TE does not constitute "repeatedly adding" BLP violating content. I have not added anything to the article at all. I am simply trying to undo your TE and preserve the principles of neutrality that is central to our mission on Misplaced Pages. TrueQuantum (talk) 16:40, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

The thing is, 3RR policy isn't 'enforced' by involved contributors adding (or restoring - the same thing, in this context) material to articles. It is enforced by taking violations of policy to an appropriate noticeboard, where an admin can, if necessary, impose sanctions on one or more of the involved parties. Though I think it is safe to assume that said admin will take due account on the explicit exemptions to WP:3RR rules which can apply when removing WP:BLP-violating content. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:52, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Actually, Marquardtika, the New York Times source , which you keep removing, for example, here: , is more circumspect about whether or not Bash intended anything and whether or not the gesture is or is not offensive. We can't get into her mind, so the most that can be said is that there was an accusation. I don't know if Vox is actually considered to be a RS, but the Vox article you keep citing is clearly loaded with opinion. It is not as definitive as seem to suggest. Thanks. Attic Salt (talk) 18:37, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

The NYT article you cite is a 2019 article about the evolution of the OK gesture. It's not particularly useful or accurate when discussing an incident that occurred in 2017. And no, we can't "get into her mind." But we can and we must identify conspiracy theories for what they are. She unequivocally did not "flash a white power sign." And we're certainly not going to say she was accused of such in the article without addressing the fact that, per the myriad reliable sources I've provided, that's a false accusation. Marquardtika (talk) 18:55, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Um, Marquardtika, the NYT article you keep removing notes that it is not always clear when the okay gesture is or is not intended to be offensive. In this respect, your quote, including mentioning the ADL, is not necessarily accurate. It is, at times, clearly used as a hate symbol. Attic Salt (talk) 19:08, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

If you genuinely don't understand how edits like this are BLP violations, you need to stop editing biographies. That you are not comprehending that saying a Mexican Jewish woman was accused of flashing a white power symbol without providing any context about who was accusing her or how this came to be is problematic. The fact that sometimes the OK sign is used as a hate symbol does not mean that she used a hate symbol. The Washington Post is very clear that she gave an OK sign with her hand to a judiciary staffer after that staffer fulfilled a request to bring Kavanaugh a glass of water. We obviously need to be extremely careful about including any content that accuses someone of making a white power symbol. That is a serious and ugly accusation. It's a shame that several editors on the Bash page don't understand the BLP issues. Marquardtika (talk) 20:28, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Um, please don't personalise this discussion. The edit you cite this was not made by me. So why do you cite it here in responding to me? I'm all in favour of providing context, but the quote you keep presenting, asserting that the gesture is "not considered a real hate symbol" is simply false. That the WP article is simply wrong. The NYT article you keep removing makes that clear. I'm not suggesting that Bash used it as a hate symbol. In fact, I'm completely agnostic on that matter. Attic Salt (talk) 20:44, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

So it is your contention that The Washington Post is wrong? You might want to take that to WP:RSN. Marquardtika (talk) 21:01, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Truequantum, trying to defend a WP:BLP violation by making a personal attack on a contributor, entirely unaccompanied by any evidence, generally isn't considered a wise tactic. I'd recommend taking a little time to figure out how Misplaced Pages actually works (you've only been editing since the beginning of June) before making further comments. The question of what should or shouldn't go in the Bash biography (and indeed whether there should be one at all) can now be determined at more appropriate locations than WP:ANI, and if anything needs to be discussed on this noticeboard regarding what went on with the Eugene Gu article, it will need a new thread. Accompanied by actual evidence. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:37, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

That's a serious accusation, AndyTheGrump. Please show me where I have made a personal attack on a contributor. I have simply laid out the evidence of what has occurred in the editing history. Furthermore, I recommend you refresh yourself on Misplaced Pages policies and our ethos. It does not matter if an editor has been here for 1 day or for 10 years. We do not undervalue the contributions and opinions from any editor regardless of how long they have been editing. TrueQuantum (talk) 16:43, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

You have 'laid out' no evidence at all. Evidence, at WP:ANI, consists of links (e.g. diffs) to the relevant material, as posted by the person concerned. It doesn't consist of mere assertions that something or other happened. And no, it isn't a good idea to undervalue a contributor on the basis of how long they have been editing. It is however often relevant to how much allowance should be made for their evident lack of understanding of how things work. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:18, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't know if TrueQuantum (talk · contribs) NeneCaretaker (talk · contribs) and 66.190.166.205 (talk · contribs) are meat puppets or sock puppets, but they are all new accounts with a sudden and similar interest in Zina Bash. Marquardtika (talk) 17:05, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Speaking of personal attacks on contributors, this false accusation is utterly uncalled for. TrueQuantum (talk) 17:34, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

The text "new accounts with a sudden and similar interest in Zina Bash" is completely accurate: TrueQuantum (talk · contribs) was created on 6 June 2021 and has 268 edits starting with their user page (permalink) while NeneCaretaker (talk · contribs) was created on 16 July 2021 and has 26 edits starting with their user page ("The red font for a blank user page is ugly" permalink). Regarding the issue of the article, TrueQuantum and NeneCaretaker have received the BLP discretionary sanctions notification and I will ensure that any BLP problems result in appropriate action. If anyone wants to oppose a sanction against those who came to Misplaced Pages to add fuel to an article, please speak up. Johnuniq (talk) 01:36, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Johnuniq, I'm surprised by your suggestion of sanctions. What, specifically, are you asking us to oppose? Certainly you are obliged to clearly state what you are proposing. More generally, I think the evidence you cite for a sockpuppet is flimsy. Why not request a CU to verify? Independent of that, TrueQuantum's behaviour has been both civil and well reasoned. I find Marquardtika's edits to be tedious and I view AndyTheGrump as a bully. Those are my thoughts. Attic Salt (talk) 03:02, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. This is getting pretty ridiculous. I am being accused of making sockpuppet accounts (namely that of NeneCaretaker and 66.190.166.205 without any evidence whatsoever. Now there are threats of sanctions against me for trying to enforce our policies on neutrality? I would like other administrators to weigh in here because this seems patently unfair. TrueQuantum (talk) 03:05, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Which 'policies on neutrality' are you trying to 'enforce', and where do they state that a participant in a dispute should be 'enforcing' them? AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:13, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I second the call for a different administrator. Attic Salt (talk) 03:11, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Of course you do. But User:Johnuniq is a very experienced administrator and I, an even more experienced Aministrator, see no problems with the suggestion that any BLP violation after the discretionary sanctions alerts have been given may lead to sanctions. In fact, they should lead to sanctions. Doug Weller talk 12:41, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Please identify and cite the evidence used to justify a BLP violation and discretionary sanctions alert that AndyTheGrump placed on my talk page. I am concerned that rather than using this mechanism to protect our policies on Misplaced Pages, AndyTheGrump as an editor involved in this dispute is using the discretionary sanctions as a silencing tactic against me. Misplaced Pages is meant to be open to editors of all levels of experience and time spent here. I am highly unsettled and concerned by bullying from "experienced" editors that will degrade the quality of this encyclopedic resource. Why do I have discretionary sanctions and AndyTheGrump and Marquardtika do not? Please examine their contentious editing history and talk page comments regarding this issue. Fairness and objectivity should be values that administrators believe in. TrueQuantum (talk) 14:13, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

You are not having discretionary sanctions 'used against you'. You are being notified that they exist. Experienced Wikipedians already know about them, and don't generally need such notifications, since they are already aware of them. I certainly was, and fully expect that if I ever violate the relevant Misplaced Pages policies, such sanctions will be applied. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:50, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

The allegation that this BLP subject repeatedly made "white power" hand gestures at a deeply controversial, very public confirmation hearing never made much sense and has been clearly refuted. Supporters of racial justice and equality, which I hope includes all of us, should find better causes for their editing efforts than further promoting this allegation, which at this point is both a defamation and a digression. Actually, the interesting BLP question about this article is not whether we should "neutrally" report that something is possible where it obviously is not true, but whether this type of spurious but potentially life-destroying allegation against a non-prominent person should be included in a Misplaced Pages article at all. I have referred to this question elsewhere as the "allegations problem": when does an allegation that would otherwise not be worth mentioning, whether because it is untrue or (in other cases) because it is non-notable, need to be included because the making of the allegation itself became a public controversy. (Compare my comments here and the discussion problem here.) Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:27, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Newyorkbrad, You seem to be rehashing things already said. Both TrueQuantum and I have stated that this article might be worthy of deletion. But I disagree with your quotation marks about neutrality. As long as the article exists, we should certainly strive for neutrality. I also disagree with your simple assertion that the allegation is "obviously not true". We don't know that, so let's stop saying things we don't know. Regarding "further promoting this allegation", no one here is promoting an allegation. I suggest you retract that comment as unhelpful (to say the least). And, finally, TrueQuantum requested "Please identify and cite the evidence used to justify a BLP violation". For clarity, your response, here, does not do that at all. Attic Salt (talk) 15:19, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Indeed, this is symptomatic of a broader issue: the tendency of Misplaced Pages biographies of living persons (and articles in general, though that matters less) to become battlegrounds between contributors with opposing views, if there is any political context at all, and for such battleground behaviour to result in articles consisting of little more than a series of 'pro' and 'anti' sections based on marginal sourcing, chosen not to actually describe the subject biographically, but to score points. Not only is this a poor reflection on contributors, and on Misplaced Pages in general, but it is also an insult to readers, who I'd have to assume would rather read something less resembling the Somme after a particularly bad day. For the record, as a Brit, and thus as an outsider generally only observing US politicking from a distance, I had no recollection of knowing anything about Zina Bash before I saw the thread on WP:BLPN, and reacted to it not because I wanted to take sides, but because I saw what was so blatantly a violation of WP:BLP policy that I couldn't ignore it. As the few of you who have seen comments from me on a Misplaced Pages-criticism forum I participate in may have noticed (the rest of you will have to take my word for it), my own political views are about as far from those of the Trump administration, and its appointees etc, as could be imagined. If I were to pick sides, I'd be on the other side of the trenches. If my politics influenced my actions here at all (which is of course possible) it was probably because this insult to readers intelligence (to even describe it as a conspiracy theory suggests more coherence than it deserves) makes those pushing it look utterly idiotic, and consequently harms efforts to confront real-world racial bigotry from actual advocates of 'white power' etc. Real-world bigotry with real-world consequences. If people want to use Misplaced Pages as a political battlefield (which no doubt they always will, since being political is part of being human) they really need to use more subtle tactics than those employed here. 15:16, 24 July 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by AndyTheGrump (talk • contribs)

Hi Newyorkbrad, I would like to understand your points and arguments in good faith. I do agree with you that a "potentially life-destroying allegation against a non-prominent person" has no place on Misplaced Pages. That is why I have repeatedly said that if Zina Bash is only known for the hand signal controversy at Brett Kavanaugh's controversial hearing, then the entire article should be deleted. What I am adamantly against is using Misplaced Pages as a reputation management PR service for anyone. In fact, there seems to be three main possibilities for Zina Bash's OK hand signal:

1. It may be an innocuous OK hand gesture without any bad intent. There are reliable sources that state this perspective.

2. It may be a white power hand gesture with malicious and racist intent. There are reliable sources that state this perspective and cite individuals who have been fired from their jobs and disciplined after flashing this hand signal during media interviews.

3. It may have been a way to distract from Kavanaugh's controversial hearing where accusations of sexual assault were causing significant impediments. Reliable sources have stated this possibility as well and the Washington Post noted that even after the first uproar about the hand signal, Bash did it again.

I honestly do not know which of the above possibilities are true. Also, it is not my duty as an editor to determine which is true or to fight for any single narrative here. I believe that in the interests of neutrality we must cover what the reliable sources state about this incident and let the reader come to her or his own conclusion. We cannot pick and choose what reliable sources are "true" and what reliables sources are "false." What I believe to be a violation of our principles on neutrality is to only include the sources that state that the whole incident is a "conspiracy theory." That would make Bash's page appear to be more of a PR type reputation management service since Misplaced Pages articles, especially BLPs, often make it to the top of anyone's Google search. Misplaced Pages is not here to vouch for anyone nor to repair their reputations. Our job is to make sure that for BLPs we remain absolutely neutral. Since I do believe in the presumption of innocence and the tenets of due process, the most fair scenario here is to delete Bash's page. If the page is not deleted, then portray the incident with absolute neutrality. TrueQuantum (talk) 15:24, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

How to shoot yourself in the foot in one easy lesson: "I believe this article should be deleted, but rather than nominate it for deletion, I'm going to turn it into a battlefield instead". AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:45, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't appreciate your dismissive and derisive attitude here towards me. I gave an explanation citing my reasoning based on the available evidence and sources and you simply state "How to shoot yourself in the foot in one easy lesson" and accuse me of turning the article into a "battlefield." It would have been more appropriate for you to actually go through my arguments and rebut them based on the evidence and with your own logical reasoning. That's how I expect editors to conduct themselves when discussing issues on here with maturity. TrueQuantum (talk) 16:50, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

To quote what I said earlier, when I started this thread "Any responsible contributor would surely understand that if there is a dispute about possible WP:BLP violations, the proper course of action is to resolve the matter through dispute resolution". WP:ANI is not the proper place to engage in a content dispute. What is being discussed here is behaviour - specifically, the behaviour of a couple of individuals who, when it had already been made abundantly clear that the disputed content was considered by responsible and experienced editors to violate WP:BLP policy, continued to restore it to the article. You don't have to agree with other people assessments regarding WP:BLP policy. You are however expected to at least conform to the minimum standard of expected behaviour, and discuss issues over such content properly (asking for third-party comment etc if needed) rather than edit-warring it in to 'enforce' (your own word, used above ) your preferred version of the article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:15, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

So let me see if I understand this correctly. If you are making accusations that I am violating BLP guidelines despite not actually writing anything into Bash's article at all (simply reverting Maquardtika's edit once and your edit once), I am supposed to not even discuss the topic whatsoever here and take the consequences of your accusations including discretionary sanctions without defending myself. If I defend myself in the proper forum and explain my reasoning, that to you is a violation. All of this is occurring in the setting of you and Marquardtika violating the 3RR policy. Tell me how this makes sense. Also, please cite the evidence for my BLP violation on Bash's article that justifies these accusations leading to possible BLP discretionary sanctions against me rather than against you and Marquardtika. TrueQuantum (talk) 17:31, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump, and, again, when you were asked what the BLP violations that concerned you , , you refused to answer: . Attic Salt (talk) 17:36, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Looking further into the history of the Zina Bash biography

Having looked at the history, I'd like to first state that this revert, made by TrueQuantum, was absolutely in compliance with WP:BLP policy, and had I seen the material myself, would have done exactly the same thing - and quite likely pursued it further, at least to the extent of finding out who was responsible for originally adding it and asking them what the hell they thought they were doing. My endeavours to figure out who actually added have so far however been thwarted by the convoluted edit-warring that has taken place. The article history is a total mess, and reflects poorly on almost everyone concerned.

Going back to the origins of the article, one will readily observe that it has been abused as a political battleground right from the start, as competing factions alternately add their preferred spin to a facile troll-fuelled 'debate' over the position of the hands of someone sitting in the background of a Supreme Court conformation hearing. If it wasn't created for that express purpose in the first place, it might as well have been. If Misplaced Pages can't do better than this, it should maybe consider tightening the notability criteria for biographies of living persons further, to at least reduce the number of vacuous-battleground-biographies enough to enable less politically-motivated contributors to keep a better eye on whatever idiocy is being perpetrated on this self-proclaimed 'encyclopedia'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:06, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

It looks like AndyTheGrump is completely retreating from his call for an ANI. Attic Salt (talk) 18:11, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

What the heck is a 'call for an ANI'? AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:13, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

You brought us here, but you have declined to provide evidence of BLP violations, see: . Attic Salt (talk) 18:18, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Given that your interpretation of multiple Misplaced Pages policies (as shown here ) is clearly entirely at odds with mine, or indeed with more or less anyone I've seen who actually understands them (e.g. your suggestion that "Perhaps the only thing that is noteworthy enough to justify a Wikiarticle on Zina Bash is this accusation. If there is to be an article on her, then the accusation needs to be discussed. Though not in unrealistic terms, like whether or not it is debunked.") perhaps you might like to ask that question of the many other people who have responded here, who appear to agree with me. I very much doubt you'd take any notice of what I said. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:44, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Topic bans

• Suggest topic banning both Attic Salt and TrueQuantum from BLPs. Their arguments here are ridiculous. They're edit warring to restore debunked claims about a living person flashing a white power sign and also removing the context of where those allegations came from. Attic Salt is playing dumb and pretending that they don't understand how that's a BLP violation. And TrueQuantum is pulling the "I was just enforcing the 3RR policy" card, which is irrelevant because we're responsible for any edit we restore. Neither editor has any business editing BLPs until they learn our policies. Woodroar (talk) 18:15, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support for Attic Salt (talk · contribs) only, as it is clear that they have an issue with BLP policy; but weak oppose for TrueQuantum (talk · contribs) because of their conduct at other BLPs, like their comments at Talk:Bill_Cosby#This_page_feels_heavily_subjective_and_biased_in_Cosby's_favor., Talk:Jimmy_Savile#RfC_about_Savile_as_a_child_molester, Talk:David_Gorski#Notability_Question, and Talk:CallMeCarson#Sexual_allegations_and_innuendo, is mixed at worst. But I would recommend at minimum a one-account restriction for TrueQuantum, if NeneCaretaker (talk · contribs) and 66.190.166.205 (talk · contribs) prove to be socks. I also see that they also violated WP:NOTFORUM by initiating Talk:Sex#Biological_Sex:_Binary_or_Spectrum, which points in the direction of a topic ban from human sexuality that may void the need for a BLP topic ban. (All their recent BLP edits focus on sexual abuse scandals.) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 20:13, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

What issue do I have with the BLP policy? Attic Salt (talk) 20:17, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

You're right — this seems to be an isolated incident, and the only problematic conduct on your behalf was on Zina Bash and its talk page; for instance, this edit to remove WP:PROMO from a BLP looks uncontroversial. Changing to oppose for you, but may still support a topic ban from Zina Bash from your previous comments there. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 20:28, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Very confusing. I've asked several times what the controversial conduct was. Please provide diffs. Why is that so difficult? Attic Salt (talk) 20:32, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

This edit reverted by Marquardtika (talk · contribs) and then reverted again by AndyTheGrump (talk · contribs) (after one round with TrueQuantum) is alleged to violate the BLP policy. You previously brought up a point about the sexual abuse allegations against Bash in January 2020, at Talk:Zina_Bash#January_2020_2, which was refuted by CWC (talk · contribs) and Marquardtika. I think at this point that this has descended into a content dispute where you are innocent that should have gone to WP:BLPN first (Bash has never been discussed other than this zero-reply thread by the creator), although TrueQuantum may still be problematic based on the evidence I presented. Thanks for telling me to address this more closely. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 21:32, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

And you really consider that edit to be so controversial that you contemplate a ban against me, specifically? Please don't complain about splinters in my eye. Attic Salt (talk) 21:41, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

• Rather than playing dumb, I think that Attic Salt truly does not yet understand a fundamental aspect of Misplaced Pages's BLP policy, which is that it is more important than most other policies, and more specifically that it is more important than otherwise basic content policies like WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. When talking about accusations made against historical figures who lived 2000 years ago, a comment like Nope. We are not at liberty to interpret accusations as being either true or false. Accusations can be made and denied. Proof, here, does not exist. might be a perfectly legitimate interpretation of policy: we just report what historians are writing about the accusation, and we don't engage in our own research about whether the accusation was true or false. The person involved is long dead anyways, and what we write about it does not have any real-world impact apart from the accuracy of our information about ancient history. When talking about living persons, however, a completely different standard applies. For living persons, the question whether we do or do not repeat serious accusations made against them can have far-reaching real-life consequences. In these circumstances, it is not enough to consider whether what we report is objective, or whether it complies with what expert sources are telling us. For example, when it comes to serious allegations that are reported by reliable sources, but which nevertheless show some of the characteristics of gossip, we would report it without a second thought in the case of historical figures (the fact that objective historians are writing about it is proof enough of its notability, and everyone likes a bit of speculation on the personal lives of the ancients). In the case of gossip about living persons, however, we are required to ask ourselves whether the material is being presented as true; and whether, even if true, it is relevant to a disinterested article about the subject. Basically, if it is even remotely likely to be just gossip, mere allegations without any substantive form of proof, then the preferred course is to either not include it, or to write about it very sparingly (perhaps one sentence, e.g. if it is directly relevant to something else we're writing). It doesn't matter that in principle it could be true, that there is no evidence that it isn't true, that a number of reliable sources have reported on it, etc., etc. Our first goal in such a case is not to be objective, but to avoid being complicit in defamation. Now I'm fairly confident that Attic Salt just wasn't aware yet of the extra stringency we apply to BLP's (which, by the way, includes an exemption from 3RR), and that after the explanation I have just given they will understand and agree. If, however, that would turn out not to be the case, I would support a topic ban on BLP's until they do understand. As for TrueQuantum, I can't and won't comment on their understanding of BLP policy in other articles, but I note that they too elevated neutrality above BLP concerns in the case of the Zina Bash article, and that throughout this thread they have failed to understand the importance of these concerns. I think that also for TrueQuantum, a topic ban would be in order if they should not come to understand this. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 23:59, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

" is more important than otherwise basic content policies like WP:NPOV and WP:NOR."

Without necessarily disagreeing with some of your ultimate conclusions on content issues here, I'm going to have to push back against that statement, Apaugasma: WP:NPOV is a pillar policy of this project, and more or less by definition has a higher stature, in terms of over-arching community consensus formulated over the duration of this project, than does BLP, by a significant margin. And WP:OR is of course one of the primary outgrowths of that pillar policy explaining how we apply it in practice. Don't get me wrong, I very much support the precautionary principle which undergirds BLP, but it sometimes takes on a life of it's own in the hands of those who would like to excise content which they do not like with regard to living persons--even where good faith application of the standard WP:DUE WP:WEIGHT process clearly established an argument for inclusion. BLP was designed to work synergistically within the bounds of a policy of neutrality that is not meant to be abrogated under any circumstances, not to become a talisman that causes neutrality to be thrown out the window when we determine that information is sensitive in nature--which latter approach would be too vulnerable to abuse from POV pushers looking to sanitize articles on living but highly controversial figures.

That said, I do recognize that BLP has, as an informal cultural matter, grown into something of a standard held in greater regard than your average policy page, but as a structural matter regarding how this community has codified its priorities and over-arching community consensus on the most paramount concerns when deciding a content matter, no, WP:NPOV is not some "basic" policy which bows to BLP. Quite the opposite: in a theoretical context in which the two are in direct conflict (which in reality is almost never the case, because the nuance of both policies generally allows for threading the needle and the two being applied in concert), we would be expected by the highest level of community consensus to err on the side of neutrality. Of course, let me reiterate again, that in practice you and I might agree on the right content call in both the present circumstances as well as most others that potentially implicate both BLP and NPOV. But with regard to the statement I quote above, you are categorically incorrect as to which policy is meant to inherit the greater level of concern as a recognized fundamental policy of this project. Snow 03:13, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Well I thank you for this explanation. I accept it and the BLP policies in general. I would have appreciated a clear explanation like this earlier on, rather than all the antagonism and arrogance that has bee directed my way. Attic Salt (talk) 00:13, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

I find it extremely unsettling that both Attic Salt and I are under threat of a topic ban and/or other discretionary sanctions. Such drastic actions require detailed and specific evidence because these actions censor our views and contributions to an encyclopedic resource that is meant to be free and open to all editors in good faith. If I am to be subject to a topic ban on BLPs, I demand the specific violation(s) I have made and how each of these violations went against specific policies. I cannot be subject to a topic ban because of the articles that I choose to edit, which range from topics in physics to biology to mathematics to BLPs. If I believe in the tenets of WP:BLP and WP:BLPCRIME and seek to apply these policies to protect BLPs, I should not be punished for my good faith understanding of Misplaced Pages's policies even if other editors may disagree. Furthermore, I am unequivocally not NeneCaretaker nor am I IP user 66.190.166.205. Yet somehow I stand accused. I would appreciate a Check User action to verify this. In summary, I am very concerned with how Attic Salt and I are being treated here. It's beyond chilling that we are subject to sanctions based on vague accusations without specific evidence to back them up. It would be extremely troubling for editors who have many years of experience here on Misplaced Pages to form a clique because of the age of their accounts and to gang up on newer editors like myself. To then apply sanctions or even the threat of sanctions is anathema to the spirit and ethos of an open source encyclopedia. TrueQuantum (talk) 00:23, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Does you 'good-faith understanding' of WP:BLP now extend to an understanding that when multiple experienced editors state that material you are adding or restoring to an article contravenes the policy, the correct way to proceed, if you disagree with that assessment, is to try to resolve the matter through discussion (including if necessary formal dispute resolution etc) rather than adding or restoring it again? AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:34, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

I share TrueQuantum’s disgust with how this has unfolded. Attic Salt (talk) 00:31, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Attic Salt, samequestion for you: does you 'good-faith understanding' of WP:BLP now extend to an understanding that when multiple experienced editors state that material you are adding or restoring to an article contravenes the policy, the correct way to proceed, if you disagree with that assessment, is to try to resolve the matter through discussion (including if necessary formal dispute resolution etc) rather than adding or restoring it again? AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:34, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Andy,your behaviour here has been horrible. I’m not interested in interacting with a bully. Attic Salt (talk) 00:38, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm sure those wishing to determine how best to proceed further will take your non-response to a perfectly reasonable question into consideration. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:42, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm really concerned that nobody is addressing the bullying behavior from editors AndyTheGrump and Marquardtika. So far they have accused me of being NeneCaretaker and 66.190.166.205 without any evidence nor CU action. They have attacked my character repeatedly as well as my intentions. Furthermore, the administrators involved so far have only been piling on by threatening sanctions against me and Attic Salt while giving a free pass to AndyTheGrump and Marquardtika. I sincerely hope that Misplaced Pages has not become an insular group of editors and administrators who give favoritism to those they know or those whose accounts are older while discriminating against newer accounts like myself. TrueQuantum (talk) 01:03, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

At no point have I accused you of being NeneCaretaker or 66.190.166.205. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:18, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

@TrueQuantum: I agree that WP:BITE may have been a concern here (@AndyTheGrump: please do try to take it easy). However, the accusations are not vague. They're simply that this edit and this one reinstated what other editors had identified as a BLP violation without waiting for the discussion about this to end. This is not acceptable, and demonstrate that you do not yet sufficiently understand the gravity of BLP violations. Even if there is just a possibility of an edit violating BLP policy, it should be extensively discussed before being reinstated. If you simply acknowledge this and promise to take this into account in the future, I'm fairly sure that no action will be taken. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 00:58, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for actually pointing out what the potential violation is and what policy it violates. I did in fact discuss the BLP issues in the talk page for Zina Bash way in advance of reverting Marquardtika's edit. Not only that, but furthermore I pointed out on Marquardtika's talk page that I identified contentious editing and politely asked the editor to refrain. The talk page discussion was as follows: "I saw you put in accusations of sexual assault against Eugene Gu in your edit to Zina Bash's BLP. Upon further investigation I saw that you were aggressively editing Gu's BLP to include accusations of sexual assault that a unanimous RFC forbade. Please refrain from tendentious editing and look up our policies on WP:BLP and WP:BLPCRIME. Thank you. TrueQuantum (talk) 18:48, 12 July 2021 (UTC) Maybe Eugene should have looked up the BLP policies before he used his public platform to falsely accuse a Mexican Jew of flashing a white power symbol. As for the accusations of sexual assault, it's right there in the reliable source: "Eugene Gu, a prominent anti-Trump doctor who recently made news when he was accused of sexual assault..." Marquardtika (talk) 01:42, 13 July 2021 (UTC) Okay. Seeing as how Gu isn't a Wiki editor, it's strange to say that he should have looked up the BLP policies. Sounds like you have an axe to grind against Gu that makes you ignore RFC consensus and then attack him in Zina Bash's Misplaced Pages page to get revenge on him using his "public platform" to "falsely accuse a Mexican Jew of flashing a white power symbol." I highly recommend you refresh yourself on the 5 pillars and WP:BLP policies. Please discontinue the tendentious editing that is clearly motivated by feelings of retaliation and desire for retribution. TrueQuantum (talk) 02:05, 13 July 2021 (UTC)." I made repeated attempts to reach out and discuss on the talk page before resorting to reverting what I believed to be TE. If I made an error in this case, then it was unintentional and I will take it as a learning point and lesson. I hope that Marquardtika and AndyTheGrump can similarly learn lessons on Misplaced Pages policies and civil behavior so that we can have a better community here. TrueQuantum (talk) 01:13, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

The crucial difference is that after Marquardtika got reverted on the Eugene Gu article, they did continue to discuss a bit on the talk page, but they did not reinstate the edit without getting consensus to do so. Likewise, after you reverted them at the Zina Bash article, they discussed a bit with you on their talk page but they did not reinstate the edit. I do think it rather questionable that they incorporated the sexual assault allegation against Gu in the Zina Bash article just two days after their inclusion of it in Gu's own article was reverted, though as they write on their talk page, the allegation against Gu is specifically noted in the Vox article we are using on Zina Bash. Anyways, the important thing is that when editors identify BLP violations, they should not be reinstated without a thorough consensus, and they can in some cases even be reverted beyond 3RR. This is not always an obvious point for newish editors to catch on to, but I guess that learning it the hard way is also one form of learning it. :-P Thanks for your attention, ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 02:53, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

To piggyback on Apaugasma's very useful advice here, I would recommend that you take a look at WP:BRD, if you are not familiar with, or to review it even if you are--and when doing so, consider every note of caution with regard to the principle of discussing before acting to have a particular vitality in the context of BLP. Mind you, when it comes to the tone of the discussion itself, I believe you acted in a civil and measured fashion, and I intend to note that in an !vote below. However, the edit warring here never should have taken place. The burden was upon you and Attic Salt to achieve consensus for these changes once they were reverted, and you skipped that rather principal step. In the future, where things are looking rather intractable, you should consider soliciting additional perspectives through a process such as WP:RfC rather than resorting to attempting to get the content in by brute force of redundant edits: that approach will never work in your favour. Snow 03:25, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Death

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I wanna announce the death of my friend AbhiMukh97 who passed away a week ago due to covid. I figured out he used to edit wikipedia and hence informing. 223.223.136.222 (talk) 07:26, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

223.223.136.222, I'm sorry to hear about this. If you have evidence of their deceased status, I suggest following the instructions here, and possibly contacting the oversight team. Please accept my condolences, BrxBrx(talk) 07:37, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

User:VNHRISHIKESH

User:VNHRISHIKESH already has a rather problematic editing history, with in a month one so far successful article creation, and 10 or so failed ones (mostly deleted, some draftified). This includes things like moving Paracelsus to Philips Paracelsus, a name not used anywhere else. They received warnings for the use of their user page for promotion, copyright violations, and general disruption.

On 13 July, they asked for protection of their user page and talk page to preserve it from vandalism. Neither page had ever been vandalized, and the request was swiftly rejected.

Today, an IP appears, makes two vandal edits to All, and then makes the most gentle of vandal edits ever to VNHRISHIKESH's user talk page. The IP then stops editing, and 3 minutes later our editor reappears and again asks for protection (the last edited three minutes before the very short-lived vandal IP appeared). To put the icing on the cake, both the editor and the IP turn out to be from south Kerala.

Vandalizing Misplaced Pages to get your user page and talk page protected must be among the more stupid things I have seen here, but coupled with the waste of time this editor has turned out to be otherwise for most of their edits, I don't think they should stay around for much longer. (Oh, as an aside, with IP masking in place this would have been a lot harder to check of course). Fram (talk) 07:59, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Though I generally agree that this user may not be ready yet to constructively contribute to Misplaced Pages, from their personal website they link to at their user page it appears that they are a young editor, and I don't feel that the tone of the report above reflects that very well. Thanks for taking this into consideration, ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 14:22, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:WikiBullying by User:Aman.kumar.goel and User:Capitals00

I am compelled to report the said users for persistent wikibullying. The policy says: "On Misplaced Pages, all editors have fair and equal rights to editing all articles, project pages, and all other parts of the system. While some may have more knowledge or familiarity with a topic than others, this does not mean those with less Misplaced Pages jargon are at a lower level, or not entitled to their point of view."

In my case:

1. User:Aman.kumar.goel has been undoing all my contributions to the pages List of converts to Christianity from Hinduism and List of converts to Islam from Hinduism without even bothering to check the references and sources I added. I was improving both the articles with references and fixed some unreliable sources but next day all my edits were undone. My request in this regard to User:Aman.kumar.goel on his talk page was also unanswered.

2. I had to contact the Helpdesk where User:331dot and User:Maproom advised me to discuss this on the article's talk page so I opened a thread on the article's talk page here for discussion.

3. Despite all these efforts User:Aman.kumar.goel kept undoing my contributions without even bothering to look at the references I added (though I used only reliable sources which are being used in other Misplaced Pages articles). Instead of any explanation, he continued undoing my works repeatedly and threatend me of disabling my editing rights. Didn't pay any heed to the administrator who advised him to discuss rather deleted my own message from my own talk page.

4. In the middle of these, suddenly another User:Capitals00 came with a similar warning and false statesments against my edits. I have not interacted with him before and did not even know him. He said I was making own calculations but anyone can verify that I added reliable sources for my every contributions.

Since, my contributions with reliable sources have been undone by them yet they have no interest in discussion so I am forced to report them to get my contribution rights please. --Bringtar (talk) 09:08, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Bringtar Just FYI you are required to notify any other users you are discussing of the existence of this discussion(see the top of this page for instructions on how to do so). 331dot (talk) 09:13, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• Maybe I am not aware of all the issues here but the question from the Help Desk does remain in that is it insufficient for an individual's statement of their religious conversion as evidence of their religious conversion? 331dot (talk) 09:15, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

331dot sorry, I am doing that now. Thank you again for all your help. Bringtar (talk) 09:17, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment I don't see "bullying". As asked on your talk page, can you tell us about your earlier accounts? You made your first edit only 2 days ago where you merely cited wikipedia articles as sources along with bunch of unreliable sources, and edit warred pretending to know everything and now you are forum shopping to ANI as you have failed to make sense of your POV. Only socks do this. I am pretty sure that you are plainly following the template of a WP:NOTHERE editor. Ratnahastin(t.c) 09:28, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• Ratnahastin I have no earlier accounts. I edited wikipedia in the past without creating any accounts and I did not plan to make regular contributions here but that does not mean I cannot contribute. Also I did not make any edit-war rather tried to discuss it with the other editor who has been edit-warring. Can you please list my unreliable sources because I was the one who replaced the Misplaced Pages article links with reliable sources. Bringtar (talk) 09:44, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

  You are accusing me of WP:ADMINSHOP but FYI, I contacted the helpdesk first as this was the first place to look for a help when my edits were removed and like I mentioned above, when the other user were reluctant to discuss and gave me block threats then I have to report them here according to WikiBullying policy. --Bringtar (talk) 09:54, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment. I think this is acually a problem - but not from Bringtar. A number of the entries added by Bringtar do appear to have reliable sources, though some I am less sure about. Also, many of the entries added do talk about the subject's conversion from Hinduism in their own article, often with reliable sources. Thus, the behaviour of Aman.kumar.goel and Capitals00 jumping in with a totally unjustified final vandalism warning suggests to me some problematic POV editing from those two editors. Yes, clearly multiple accounts are trying to add that information. However, removing it en masse when some of the entries are clearly correct per the subjects own articles is equally as disruptive. Why not remove any poorly sourced entries, and leave the rest? Advice to Bringtar. Ensure that the sources you use are definitely reliable, and be especially careful if the subjects are living people. Do not add the entries if you are unsure, and you can always ask for advice at WP:RSN. You can also use many of the sources in the subject's own articles to source the entries. Black Kite (talk) 09:36, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the advise. If you see my discussion threads, I repeatedly asked to point me to the unreliable sources so I can improve with better sources. Anyway, I will use WP:RSN to verify reliability. Thanks again. Bringtar (talk) 09:58, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment. I have also seen similar 'consistent unhealthy' pattern from User:Aman.kumar.goel and User:Capitals00 of abusing Wiki processes to bully, some examples below:

User:Aman.kumar.goel

1. Reported me as sock, and I proved for the admin the mistake in blocking that I am not a sock. Strangely, when I was blocked, of all the edits he undid my specific edits of a Hindutva far-right politician article ONLY. For example, this article before and after undoing edits.

2. He 'again' reports me as sock, not even bother doing a basic check. Can understand if he is a beginner like me or if reporting me for the first time. Please check the frivolous claims for 13 July 2021 report. What is amazing is the consistent efforts being spent to bring some irrelevant 'similarity' with years apart pattern of edits as sock. Sock report (meant for catching actual frauds) is abused here by bunching irrelevant accounts frequently, as seen in this report. Commendable if actual fraudulent socks are identified, but this consistent pattern of sock labelling by bunching accounts based on some strange 'similarity' is unhealthy and taking sock report and admins for granted.

3. For the article, ] neither he points which specific entry is problematic nor stops from undoing contributions without talking in that page.

User:Capitals00

1. For the article, ] similarly neither he points which specific entry is problematic nor stops from undoing contributions without talking in the page.

2. In my talk page threatens in the first instance itself 'you should be indeed very careful'. Doesn't respond to my questions.

3. Doesn't clarify and doesn't respond to my second communication in my talk page on this change despite proper sources.

User:Ratnahastin above who mentioned that 'I don't see "bullying"', has recently undone PLENTY of articles (pages of who embraced Islam) of my well researched edits which were inputs to the same List of converts to Islam from Hinduism article without any discussion tantamount to vandalism. For example, here and here as I was trying to tag Category:Converts to Islam from Hinduism for organizing. This is similar to User:Capitals00's undoing for this article.

Above are some example, please check the edit history pattern and their communication to mine and other talk pages for more such. In summary, articles like List of converts to Islam from Hinduism and List of converts to Christianity from Hinduism is not allowed to be evolved with User:Aman.kumar.goel, User:Capitals00 and User:Ratnahastin having similar disruptive activities without any beneficial discussion in the talk page of that article. Why they are disrupting together by bullying the contributors, especially when well researched factual entries are updated for these articles? Attempts with well researched sources get undone by ascribing 'sock' labels, threats, etc. with no response at times or no discussion in the respective article's talk page. Based on the nature of articles and edits that get disrupted, shows a far right wing POV by bullying others who want to contribute even well researched information. If they can't point out which specific row/entry is a mistake, and keeps on undoing all entries, what is to be done? Is this the manner, a healthy, open and conducive atmosphere to encourage contribution of topics with such suffocating 'abuse' of wiki admin terms/block threats? Many admins in the past have corrected my flaws as a beginner without ascribing false motives or in a threatening tone in my talk page (like @Toddy1:, @Callanecc:, @Kautilya3:, etc.). But User:Aman.kumar.goel and User:Capitals00 especially are abusing Wiki admin processes (meant for removing actual trolls) with threats, wasting both admin time and the user's time. Am not an expert/senior here on 'all' legal nuances and unaware yet on all rituals to give a sophisticated comment, not sure if any wiki policies/behaviors if the above statements have got touched for conveying the grievance in laymen terms above. Hope, experts get the crux of what I really meant. If anything rude, please let me know, will withdraw that specific statement. Thanks for understanding and co-operating for making a better world. Loveall.human (talk) 16:54, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

I have nothing to add that has not been said above - I checked just two of the sources that Aman.kumar.goel claimed were inadequate, and found that both were reliable press articles reporting "<subject> said 'I converted to Christianity ...'". Maproom (talk) 19:39, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

@Maproom: since you didn't say which examples you checked, it's impossible to see more. But to state the obvious, you can have The Hindu, BBC, NYT, Reuters, The Globe and Mail all reporting "<subject> said 'I converted to Christianity ...'". If this is all you have, you cannot use this to add anyone to either of those lists especially not living person. Those lists are lists of people who converted from Hinduism. Unless the person said "from Hinduism" or otherwise earlier talked about how they were a follower of Hinduism before conversion, then they are insufficient. Indeed if an editor repeatedly adds living persons to such lists and their sourcing mentions conversion to Christianity (or whatever) but not "from", they should be topic banned from such lists or maybe from BLPs generally. If we have lists which are converts to Christianity or Islam without the from, then yeah probably such sources are sufficient although I'm not sure we should have such lists. Nil Einne (talk) 21:18, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

@Nil Einne: For example, when Muhammad Ali or Jermaine Jackson or Cat Stevens embraced Islam, they did not declare in the template, I am going to convert from 'XYZ'. We infer from the upbringing, name, family, reputed sources, interviews etc. There are 'all kinds' of such lists here in Misplaced Pages, but here only the convert lists from Hinduism are being disrupted from growing. Again, if any 'specific' entry is not well sourced, that can be discussed but as you notice FOR MANY YEARS these two specific articles have been stifled from maturing. Especially within India's Hindu majority setup, as per constitution anyone who is NOT Muslim/Christian/Parsi/Jew is considered (yes, including Buddhists and Sikhs) as Hindu. Even if a Muslim in India gives up his religion and is yet to adopt a new faith can still be considered as Hindu as per constitution. BUT, this list does not have such (i.e. from Sikh or Buddhist family etc.). Loveall.human (talk) 04:01, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

@Nil Einne, if you mean a person has to declare himself that he "converted from x to y" then most of the entries in List of converts to Hinduism from Christianity and List of converts to Hinduism from Islam do not support that but still they were included? Bringtar (talk) 05:43, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

@Bringtar and Loveall.human: ANI is not really the place for extensive discussions on policy issues but I wasn't trying to say you need the person to say "from XYZ". Personally I think we should require self-identification for previous religious identity (which doesn't have to be in the form of "I converted from", it could be "I was" etc), but this isn't the right place to discuss that and I tried to make it clear it wasn't what I was saying. However you do need a source to say what the person's previous religious was or better to specifically say what they converted from. If you have a source simply saying the person was raised as XYZ, I personally don't think that is sufficient but I won't dispute that here.

But you definitely cannot make inferences from where a person lives, their name or even their parent's or families religion. That's always a violation of WP:OR even when BLPs aren't involved. And sorry, a countries constitution or laws are completely irrelevant. Religion is a personal thing, it's not what someone else says. There are BLP reasons for this but even putting that aside, it's simple common sense.

To give an example, in some Muslim countries, it's legally not possible to convert from Islam and a child's religion follows their father. But in practice a small number of Muslims do convert despite the risk and of course some of these go on to raise children in their religion. Outwardly and in the eye's of the country's legal system the child may be Muslim. However if they always rejected Islam, it doesn't make sense to say they (unlike their parents) are a convert from Islam, and it's unlikely they considered themselves as such. The fact they were forced to publicly "follow" and profess Islam doesn't change this. (I would prefer not to single out a religion like this, but in truth while I know some countries e.g. Freedom of religion in Saudi Arabia and Freedom of religion in Malaysia where conversion from Islam is not possible, I do not know of any where conversion from some other religion is not possible in the modern world.)

Per WP:Other stuff exists, existing problems are not an excuse to add more problems. Any entries which are a problem in any article need to be fixed with better sources added, or the entries remove if these sources do not exist. I had a look, and it seems to me that Muhammad Ali may be fine. But Yusuf Islam is indeed a problem at List of converts to Islam from Christianity and so I tagged it. I do not see Jermaine Jackson in any list of converts from article, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there.

Nil Einne (talk) 13:13, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Nil Einne, appreciate your views and accordingly I have removed many unverified claims from here. Just for your information, my thread here is not about these policies but about the unprofessional behaviors and intimidation by User:Aman.kumar.goel and User:Capitals00. I also see another administrator have reinstated some of my edits here which proves my edits were not disruptive. Bringtar (talk) 13:34, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Bringtar is an editor whose first edit was 20 July 2021. I am amazed that such a new editor already knows about WP:ANI. Instead of trying to resolve the issues on the article talk page(s) as he/she was advised to, he/she brought a complaint to WP:ANI.

This post by Aman.kumar.goel is a bit strong in that it includes {{uw-biog3}} instead of {{uw-biog1}}, but the message carefully and helpfully explains what Aman.kumar.goel perceived the problem to be: "Your continued violation of WP:BLPCAT, WP:OR and WP:RS on List of converts to Christianity from Hinduism and List of converts to Islam from Hinduism and use of highly unreliable sources. The source should be 100% clear that "x converted from x to x" and if the person is alive then they should admit it themselves." Aman.kumar.goel might not be perfect, but he/she was being helpful. I do not think it was helpful of Aman.kumar.goel to delete this post by Bringtar when Aman.kumar.goel posted a reply on User talk:Bringtar.

Aman.kumar.goel is giving good advice. Bringtar should assume good faith and take the advice that both Aman.kumar.goel and I have given him/her - see Talk:List of converts to Christianity from Hinduism#Which are the BLP violations according to you?. -- Toddy1 (talk) 20:23, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Toddy1, I am amazed that you said it because I was trying to resolve it through discussion not Aman.kumar.goel and he repeatedly ignored all my messages on his talk page and on article's talk page. I am a long time supporter of Misplaced Pages and I frequently use it for information. What is a problem in this? I do not know about ANI, but to get my editing rights, I created this thread as instructed on this page where it clearly states with a link to this board: "If you feel that you are being bullied or another user has threatened you with bodily harm, it is important that you report them immediately to the Incidents page on the Administrator's Noticeboard so the matter can be properly dealt with"

I think you did not check properly because:

1. I contacted Aman.kumar.goel on his talk page to discuss first which is still unanswered when he undid all my edits.

2. I sought help from Help desk and I created the thread for discussion on article's talk page not Aman.kumar.goel and again he removed my edit without discussing it on that thread.

3. Aman.kumar.goel even tried to block me from editing the page but he was advised to discuss but as usual he did not!

4. His only message came with a accusation of "disruptive editing" on my talk page and in that too he removed my own message from my talk page!

Now, would you still say he tried to give "good advice" and I did not try discussing it to resolve it? What would you do if a user continuously removing your all edits and then ignoring your messages? I do not consider a block threat as a good advise. Bringtar (talk) 05:34, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

He/she pasted the wrong number on the template message ("3" when "1" or "2" would have been better). He/she also carefully wrote out what he/she thought you needed to do, which was a kind and helpful thing to do.-- Toddy1 (talk) 10:51, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Is it? He/she didn't discuss on article's talk page or on their own talk page even after advise from an administrator. Their message only came after they reverted my whole edit repeatedly. From when does accusing someone's contributions as "disruptive" have become a "kind" and "helpful" thing? Weren't they obliged to participate in discussion at the very first place when they were removing my edits? Bringtar (talk) 12:28, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Now, I came to know that I am being reported here so that I can be blocked from editing. I did not know Misplaced Pages can have these kind of editors who can file a report but cannot discuss to collaborate. Bringtar (talk) 05:37, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Now, even I am also accused now as 'sock' for interacting with you. Is 'sock' some infection? To consider, this is the 'third' time I am accused as 'sock', with carefully crafted some similar 'behaviors' as evidences. Even if accused 100 times as 'sock' not an issue when there are wise admins to investigate. But, how can this sock reporting be abused so many times like this (which is meant to catch actual fraudulent accounts)? Instead of learning Wiki policies and contributing, one has to spend time in academic wiki rituals back and forth proving that one is not a 'sock' because of this illuminate type frivolous 'sock' pattern (which is challenging to disprove at times, as there are co-incidental shared interests/pages every time when accused). Sock report is a blessing, but let there be an observation on the pattern of bullying/desperation to stifle accounts, like for my case. Effectively for example the List of converts to Islam from Hinduism page has been stuck from evolving for almost 5 years with this bullying.Loveall.human (talk) 10:37, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

@Loveall.human: Do not worry. I have had people accuse me of being sockpuppet at WP:SPI. Since I was not a sockpuppet, the accusations were rejected.-- Toddy1 (talk) 10:51, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

@Toddy1:, Your quoted policy says "Before opening an investigation, you need good reason to suspect sockpuppetry" but in my case it is full of lies and deliberate attempts to block me from editing. If they are making policy based edits then why don't then answer my questions? Bringtar (talk) 12:34, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Of course there is good reason. You created the account at 18:00, 13 May 2020. But your first edit was 19:46 20 July 2021. Since then you have made 98 edits (none deleted). That is a lot of edits per day! As a "new" editor, you know about forum shopping, WP:ANI and WP:SPI. This edit shows that you know about dredging up past criticism of editors you are in conflict with.-- Toddy1 (talk) 13:00, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

You are now accusing me of forum shopping. I already told you that I opened this thread as per instruction here. You mentioned that WP:SPI policy, not me. I came to know about my report from User:Loveall.human who informed me on their talk page19:14, 23 July 2021 (UTC). My this edit which was also reverted by Aman.kumar.goel exactly proves my point here. Anyone can go and check their talk page. I found that when I left them a message here. I have been using Misplaced Pages for a long time and have made minor edits in the past without the need of creating any account but Misplaced Pages always suggested to create an account because my IP was exposed. You should read what User:Black Kite has mentioned above. Bringtar (talk) 13:29, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment, this case more or less resembles a similar one a couple months ago (See Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1066 § Aman.kumar.goel's conduct). Inappropriate templating check, accusations of apparent policy violations check, no further explanation and no response when their own activities are questioned check. In the previous case, AKG repeatedly removed material which was sourced to unambiguously reliable sources related to the extent of the COVID-19 pandemic in India, with no talk page participation and in the end used original research and unreliable sources themselves when they finally had to participate in one. ProcrastinatingReader pointed out there was inappropriate MEDRS stonewalling involved as well, in general I think their conduct looks like long term tendentious editing which drives away productive users and stonewalls development of articles in the process.

In addition, there's likely some sort of meatpuppetry going on here. I have not seen Capitals00 before but they are pretty much playing the same role AKG's counterpart in the previous report was, who barely had any activity for months before the stonewalling, Capitals00 similarly barely has any activity for months before the stonewalling here. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 13:15, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

IP 137.27.65.235

I got some concerns over the behaviour and attitude of the IP editor 137.27.65.235. They seem to be acting aggressive to people reverting or countering their arguments. For example, I commented with a warning in a discussion that their words "Undo revert or i will" was not civil and poor conduct for an editor, and they snapped back with "It wasn't a threatening attitude, yet your "warning" ironically is." I'm concerned they wish to be aggressive in responding to other editors comments, changes to their edits or reversions of their edits, and wish for an admin to check if my concerns are justified. GUtt01 (talk) 10:28, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

You must notify any users you are discussing about the existence of this discussion; please follow the instructions at the top of this page to do so. 331dot (talk) 10:30, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Done. GUtt01 (talk) 10:33, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Other concern I have is some of the IP's edit summaries have included him claiming editors are harassing or badgering him. GUtt01 (talk) 10:45, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Per talk page comments, this is nonsense. Instead of addressing the issue i was accused of a "threatening attitude" with a 'warning' and i defended myself by simply letting GUtt01 know it was his perception but not accurate. For some reason this user is denying Nightbirde doesn't go by her legal name while performing. It was a calm reaction that i would undo the revert since the source clearly states she is Nightbirde. Not sure what the big deal is but it's irritating having to fight for what's right on here sometimes. Thank you for your time. P.s. Please see my discussion/input/comments here: Talk:America's Got Talent (season_16). I appreciate it. 137.27.65.235 (talk) 10:39, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, another editor started watching a page i edited on after i made legit contributions on Dion. This person can not stop posting messages on my talk page: instead of discussing the sources i used on the article's talk page. That editor also keeps reverting edits have been wrong about (see Dion & Dion DiMucci discography as well as Joe Bonamassa). It's frustrating to come on here and do good work yet be accused of bad attitude/behavior for being right. Please do not assume i'm like others because i'm defending myself. Nightbirde clearly states she goes by that name while performing which she did on the show and has done professionally before the audition. I'm not sure why this is even an issue but i've left the discussion as not to engage in problems just to prove a point. One day i'm sure it will be fixed/corrected. I regret you were offended. I hope you have a great day! 137.27.65.235 (talk) 11:17, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

P.s. My bad, i guess i should have used the word 'can' instead of 'will' (undo revert or i can) but interestingly i noticed remarks on edit summaries towards IPs that could be considered hostile/attacking in an effort to get them blocked. I apologized to the editors involved for seeming upset at them for reverting or ignoring my input. However, in my defense, it was well over 5 days before i even replied to your 'warning' that did not address the problem. That's hardly "snapped back" and i also took a long break before i was bombarded with talk page accusations immediately after i resumed editing regarding your concern about another editor. People shouldn't read emotions in text nor take it personal. I did not use caps or bad language. This seems to be over based on your last talk page comment about updating it later. Take care! 137.27.65.235 (talk) 14:27, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

An IP cames along to the Dion article and demonstrated WP:SPA behaviour. I investigated to see how deep it went. It was easy to see that the editor was primarily focused on Joe Bonamassa and the subject's record labels at this time. I started with a bit of clean-up including expanding bare references: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Joe_Bonamassa&type=revision&diff=1033030296&oldid=1032397339 . The anon came back made two corrections, without edit summary, and I made another correction. More good edits from the anon, etc. The problems came starting with this series of edits: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Joe_Bonamassa&type=revision&diff=1034990881&oldid=1034813649 where we have a primary source supporting claims. I reverted, with explanation and placed a non-templated final warning on anon's page. We then get into the aggressive behaviour from the anon that @GUtt01: mentioned. The main issue is the poor sourcing and aggressive response. I am not sure that this outweighs the somewhat WP:FANCRUFTy but otherwise good addition the anon makes, but WP:CIVIL might need to be explained. Also, the recent focus on Bonamassa's record label may need to be explored. It's not clear if this is simply fandom or if it's paid editing. I have no proof either way. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:35, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

@Walter Görlitz: Word of advice - even though I can see that things between you and the IP were not great, you have nearly let that dispute on editing on Joe Bonamassa become an edit war. Considering your past history, you might what to discuss the issues you have with the IP on the talk page, and point out why you did what you did and see what they have to say. Editing disputes on an article aren't a welcome matter, especially if you let emotions get the better of you. Take a breather, cool off, and come back with a clearer head to discuss things peacefully with the party you have the dispute with. GUtt01 (talk) 14:39, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

I was trying to address the anon's behaviour issues first and, as I was still on another computer trying to get some processes at work to complete, so I was making shortcuts. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:43, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

So because i added a record label that produced Dion's notable record which wasn't added to the article yet, i'm a paid editor or fan? Does this only apply to IPs but not others who add to articles such as the AGT program which this issue was initially about? Your interpretation of my behavior is not fact. I resent you thinking i'm behaving uncivil. All you had to do was rework the sentence as you did several minutes ago then there wouldn't have been a problem. The point is, the two artists are on the KTBA label. Don't like all the sources? No problem, remove them. This could have been prevented if you didn't display such mad revert habits as evidenced by multiple blocks. It is what it is. I'll avoid the AGT and Bonamassa article now that you have decided to follow/watch it. It's not worth the stress/headache. At least i backed off. Please take GUtt01's advice and do the same in the future to avoid conflicts such as this. I'm not trying to get my way. I yielded to GUtt01. Sometimes pride should be avoided. Thanks for conceding by accepting my contribution even if it needed to be tweaked. Enjoy your weekend! 137.27.65.235 (talk) 15:01, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

P.s. I think this started because i updated Dion's page due to "poorly written content" which Walter may have taken personally without knowing who did it in the past. This is hardly uncivil/aggressive behavior: curprev 05:50, 7 July 2021‎ 137.27.65.235 talk‎ 41,388 bytes +1‎ →‎Recent work and blues success: 2000–present: thanks for ref fix undo 137.27.65.235 (talk) 15:17, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Update: After trying to "bury the hatchet" hours ago, i come on to find that Walter has to continue to pester me and accuse me of being connected to Bonamassa because i edited a blues article unrelated to him but similar to his record label name. He has pushed me away. It's evident i have to use another IP or create an account to avoid this toxic behavior. I'm not sure why he gets so many chances and hasn't been blocked indefinitely. This has caused me to be agitated with other editors such as on the AGT article which this ANI was started about. I may or may not edit using this IP from time-to-time but i will avoid their articles. Here are the remarks: . 137.27.65.235 (talk) 23:01, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Peacemaker67's semi-protection of Arthur Blackburn

Another ethnic warrior

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Chezia dfg (talk · contribs) is not here to edit, but to defend the great truth. He started with deleting whole section in Egyptians 1, without explanation. He then came to Syrians, and this time called it a correction 2. Now, what he insert is the word Arab and Arabian instead of any reference to any other peoples. Hence, he can be characterized as an Arab ethnic warrior. Anyway, I gave him a warning 3, and ever since, he has enjoyed cursing me every now and then. So, this is the list:
1-You are just a fake liar
2-You are a liar, a forged typeface
3- and on my talk page he has: What you are doing is spreading lies and forgery
4- and the best, which he wrote in Arabic and translated by me: ارجع لبلدك وكفاك تزوير وكذب يا بقايا الصليبيين It means: go back to your country and enough forgery and lies you remnants of Crusaders. To give context, this "crusaders" thing is what Islamist Arab nationalists tell the Christians in the Middle East to deny them their historic connection with the land (p.s Im not a Christian).

This guy has already been blocked before, and his talk page is a wall of warnings from other users. No reason for him to stay here.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 16:02, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

@Attar-Aram syria: - you are supposed to inform the editor complained of about this discussion, per the big yellow notice in the edit window. That said, he's clearly WP:NOTHERE to contribut constructively and his short editing career is now over. Mjroots (talk) 17:25, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

User:Borsoka and User:Fakirbakir

Borsoka (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Fakirbakir (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I'd like to talk about a user I've been paying attention for some time now. The user in question is Borsoka, at first glance, a well respected and active contributor. He spends most of the time writing articles related to Hungarian history. However he also seems to have a particular interest in Romanian history too, being extremely active on many of the most important Romanian history articles. What started ringing alarm bells is when I noticed that this interest is heavily focused on topics that are highly sensitive in the context of Hungarian irredentism and a clear WP:NAT style of editing.

Borsoka is engaged in large-scale revisionism of Romanian history articles on Misplaced Pages with the help of a support network, but has mostly managed to stay under the radar and evade punishment. I'm not the first to notice his shady behaviour, he's been reported many times before , most of those times for POV pushing, but either nothing happens or he only receives a slap on the wrist. The thing is, Borsoka is actually a great writer and a profilic contributor, and adds a great deal of quality historical content to Misplaced Pages. That however, doesn't excuse manipulating historical articles to reflect a nationalist agenda.

The subtle stuff: WP:NPOV and WP:CHERRYPICKING

Usually, Borsoka finds an article about Romanian history, mass deletes content from it, including sourced content, by claiming WP:OR or WP:POV. He then starts removing any information that would suggest Romanians lived north of the Danube before the Hungarians arrived (the "continuity theory"). Afterwards, he starts rewriting the article and subtly adding in things that would suggest that Romanians originate from somewhere south of the Danube instead, and migrated north after the Hungarians (the "immigrationism theory"). Currently there's not enough evidence to prove either one of these theories.

Supporting either theory isn't by itself a bad thing. But systematically editing history articles to make them support your theory is not.

Some examples of him doing this by cherrypicking, inserting doubt, editorializing etc:

1. Suggesting Romanian was viewed as 'semi-Romance' ​
2. Suggesting Romanian was viewed as a Slavic language
3. Suggesting Romanian comes from Balkan or Slavic language instead of coming from Vulgar Latin
4. Suggesting Latin words were not inherited directly but somehow "mediated" through Slavic (and reverting back to a previous vandalism)
5. Changing what the source says - the substrate in the source is listed as Thracian-Dacian, first he removes it then changes it to unidentified
6. Changing what the source says - "North-Danube Romanians" changed to "Balkan Vlachs on the left bank of the Danube"
7. Sneaking in doubt disguised as copyediting:
   "Hungarian documents prove that the Romanians held lands in Transylvania" changed to
   "Hungarian documents prove that the Romanians were thought to have held lands in Transylvania"
8. Removing newer work from a reliable author if it contradicts immigrationism, saying it's WP:OR (despite him also citing older work from the same author elsewhere in the article)
9. Citing constantly a linguist with fringe theories (such as Yiddish comes from Slavic)

There are countless edits like these, way too many to list here.

An example of how he completely rewrites articles to subtly support immigrationist theory: a relatively obscure article about a tribe called 'Bolohoveni' or 'Volohoveni' which some assume to be 'Vlachs'(Romanians) living somewhere around southern Ukraine, while others assume to be Slavs. Romanians living that far north is problematic for immigrationist theory so he decides to rewrite the whole article depicting the Volohoveni as Slavs while removing most (but not all) Romanian references to them: He starts by marking everything with WP:OR, removes historical references because they mention "Vlachs" who are according to him completely different from "Bolokhoveni", adds new information from sources which argue they were Slavs, gradually removes all the previous sourced content. He cherrypicks information carefully to hide a Vlach presence in the area: he correctly quotes the source which explains why it's doubtful the Bolohoveni were Vlachs, but completely ignores the parts right before and after where the author states there also were Romance-speaking enclaves and a numerous Romanian population in the area.

Another easy to spot example of cherrypicking to push WP:FRINGE: he cites an interpretation of a Franciscan diplomat who believed Vlachs are a nomadic migrant population coming from Eurasia, while completely ignoring all the context surrounding it, where the author describes how this interpretation is used as the basis of a new feeble and aberrant theory on the origin of Romanians.

The not-so-subtle stuff: WP:NAT and whitewashing Hungarian history

Other times it's much worse than just subtle edits. The article Decree of Turda is about a law that was passed that discriminated against Romanians and over time led to even worse ethnic laws being implemented. In 2014, the article was much longer before Borsoka started editing it.

He removes the part describing that it discriminates towards Romanians along with the sources: The decree takes an explicitly negative view of Romanians: propter presumptuosam astuciam diversorum malefactorum, specialiter Olachorum in ipsa terra nostra existencium (…) ad exterminandum seu delendum in ipsa terra malefactores quarumlibet nacionum, signanter Olachorum - because of the evil arts of many malefactors, especially Romanians, who live in that our country (…) to expel or to exterminate in this country malefactors belonging to any nation, especially Romanians.

And rewrites the whole paragraph to paint the Hungarian, Szekler and Saxon noblemen as the actual victims: The latter had informed the King that they "have been suffering, day by day, many troubles because of the evil arts of many malefactors, especially Romanians, because of their way of being and their disorderly behaviour". The royal decree granted special privileges to the Transylvanian noblemen "in order to remove, from this country, malefactors belonging to any nation, especially Romanians". For this purpose, the decree determines the rules of the legal procedure. He uses WP:OR again as an excuse and removes all the negative effects the decree had.

On the talk page he diverts accusations of WP:NPOV by saying things like "For instance, we should present the POV, that the decree of Torda/Turda proves that the sudden appearance of a migrating population (the Vlachs) among the sedentary Saxons and Hungarians made the adopiton of special laws necessary" . Literally excusing discrimination and pushing immigrationist theory in the same sentence .

Despite him trying to dismiss or downplay this decree, the author, a reliable source that he frequently cites, writes extensively about the discrimination of Romanians at that time: :"Gradually, after 1351-1366 and 1437, Romanians lost their status as an estate and were excluded from Transylvania’s assemblies. The main reason was religion As seen above, even in the Middle Ages the Romanians were held inferior, being “schismatic”, subject to the new masters, excluded from offices and restricted to a local level. The Romanians’ inferior status began to be more and more obvious in the Transylvanian Diets’ decisions (laws) the Romanian could not appeal to justice against Hungarians and Saxons, but the latter could turn in the Romanian (1552)"

Then for the next 7 years, from 2014 to 2021, he reverts every single person who attempts to add back the information he removed or any other new information.

He also mass deletes entire sections related to this decree in another article over and over again all the way from 2012 until a few days ago always giving OR as a reason. He's extremely dedicated to this.

Another example is where he whitewashes the same subject by trying to blank the entire section about Hungary in the Anti-Romanian sentiment page not once, but twice.

WP:CANVASSING to get out of trouble

Borsoka has a support network that helps him push Hungarian nationalist POV and maintain control of pages. The primary users most involved in this are User:Fakirbakir, User:Norden1990, User:Koertefa and now banned User:KIENGIR, who was much more disruptive than the other four and engaged in more obvious vandalism. KIENGIR was the first I interacted with when I spotted him reverting users over and over to keep a nonsensical section up and removed it. He then used the same tactics as Borsoka: reverting and stonewalling. It turned me off Misplaced Pages for a while. I recently came back and noticed KIENGIR received a ban, and by looking at his contribution history to find vandalism is how I stumbled on Borsoka and the others.

They help each other get out of trouble:

When Borsoka is reported, Fakirbakir, Koertefa and Norden1990 show up to defend him. . When Norden1990 is reported, Fakirbakir and Borsoka show up to defend him. .

There are plenty of instances of this: Borsoka defending Norden1990 , , Borsoka supporting KIENGIR , Koertefa defending Fakirbakir , Fakirbakir defending Borsoka , Fakirbakir defending KIENGIR. , Fakirbakir defending Norden1990 , , Koertefa supporting Norden1990 .

There have been previous instances where they've been reported together including for canvassing: Borsoka and Fakirbakir, Fakirbakir, Koertefa and Norden1990 Koertefa, Borsoka, Fakirbakir and Norden1990, Fakirbakir, Norden1990, Borsoka. While they aren't sockpuppets they work together regularly and other reports cover pretty well how they're involved in canvassing.

The support network that helps him WP:OWN articles

They maintain control of important articles by reverting the changes of others, and achieving consensus in Talk pages. Borsoka's most edited article is Origin of the Romanians with 1,278 edits. . This is a highly controversial article because it's central to both theories and the talk page has many users complaining about NPOV. It's often the target of both Romanian and Hungarian nationalists, but somehow Borsoka seems to somehow maintain control with 85.6% of the content being authored by him, the next biggest contributor having only 1.8%. He does this by constantly reverting and rewriting the edits of others and resorting to stonewalling on the Talk page when challenged and achieving consensus with the help of his support network (on this page, Fakirbakir and until recently, KIENGIR).

A very clear example of canvassing: Borsoka mass deletes huge sections of a article he doesn't like by citing OR. . After getting reverted twice, he mass deletes a third time , except this time Fakirbakir suddenly appears 3 hours later on an article he's never edited before and makes several positive edits, making it harder to revert Borsoka's deletions. It's hard to assume good faith when he purposefully enlists the help of others to mass delete content.

Civil POV pushing

The talk pages of his articles on Romanian language or history are always filled with the usual: citations not matching the sources, cherrypicking, fringe and POV. The way he responds to user criticism is a classic case of WP:SEALION. If they question the text, he points to the sources. If they question the sources he tells them to find sources which state otherwise. If they find any, they're unreliable or original research. He always makes sure to always appear civil: "thank you for your time", "thank you for your suggestions", "thank you for your remarks" ... then completely ignores what they said. If accused of an agenda, he doesn't have one, but he has openly admitted before that "immigrationist theory is more compatible with facts" .

And that way, he maintains a stranglehold on many important articles in this category (for example: and many more).

As a user who barely contributes, I'm aware that I don't have a lot of credibility making huge accusations against someone with countless awards and a prolific contribution history, and on top of it all, it's a touchy subject. But I felt that the amount of misinformation being spread is truly massive, and it required some serious attention so I tried to compile enough evidence to show the extent of the problem. It's pretty clear that he has a strong incentive to push a specific POV in important articles about Romanian history.

I think a temporary 6 month topic ban for Borsoka and Fakirbakir on any articles which primarily concern Romanian history would be warranted, which would give some other editors a chance to fix those articles a bit without getting hit with waves of repeated reverts and stonewalling. The other two haven't been involved in editing Romanian history lately, so I don't think there's any need to take action. 20:21, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Congratulations, you may have set a new record.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:21, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Bbb23, I read every word of it, and I would like a neutral editor with knowledge of Eastern European history to make an informed comment. Cullen Let's discuss it 01:41, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, I do not want to comment on this lengthy thread. Borsoka (talk) 00:49, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

@Cullen328: as you read every word of the above report, you may want to check the edit history of the articles on which I allegedly maintain "a stranglehold". Actually, I have not edited most of them for years. Indeed, I extensively edited them 7-9 years ago and as a consequence two of them (Romania in the Early Middle Ages and Romania in the Middle Ages) were promoted to GA. A third article (Founding of Moldavia) was heavily edited by other editors after I stopped editing it (actually, it should be rewritten to provide a neutral picture). As to canvassing, I can state that all my interections with other editors are transparent. If you need further information, I can comment on other baseless accusations as well. However, are you sure we should discuss accusations made by an editor who has never edited the articles to which he refers, but is well aware of their edit history? Borsoka (talk) 08:07, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

It's another boring stream of words from an unambiguous sockpuppet: three months ago, roughly the same baseless accusations were formulated in the same style by another relatively passive "editor" User:Cealicuca, regarding eight to ten years old contributions. Maybe a sockpuppet investigation would be useful, I suspect identification with long-time abuser User:Iaaasi. I would be very happy if these frustrated reports from "false" editors ceased, I do not have the time and desire to deal with such anti-Hungarian nonsense. --Norden1990 (talk) 09:53, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Agree, I also assume that the whole report was written by Iaaasi. He has regularly hired editors through emails to act on his behalf. @Tgeorgescu: what do you think? Borsoka (talk) 10:16, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Deflecting blame to me doesn't mean that all your actions suddenly go away. I've had this account for a very long time and never used another one, and I'm more than happy to welcome any sockpuppet investigation. 10:48, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I am a Romanian, but not a nationalist. The gist of this dispute: the Romanian nationalists want 100% wiki-victory, while the Hungarian nationalists made peace with the idea that the wiki-match will end in a draw.

About Slavic language vs. Latin language: yes, most words are Slavic, but the basic vocabulary is Latin. So, both claims about the Romanian language are true to some extent. tgeorgescu (talk) 11:29, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Just a side remark: I have never stated that Romanian is a Slavic language. Borsoka (talk) 11:42, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Yup, and as you told once there is a difference between discriminating against Romanian peasants and (ethnic) requirements for becoming a noble. tgeorgescu (talk) 11:52, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, I cannot remember what you are referring to above. As far as I know there were no ethnic requirements for nobility in Hungary. Religion could be barrier, because Jews were not ennobled, and for a short period in a small region only Catholics could be awarded with nobility under Louis the Great. Borsoka (talk) 12:35, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

@Tgeorgescu: most words are Slavic? Do you mind explaining? As far as I'm aware and every linguist in the world is concerned, Slavic makes up 10-15%, not "most" of Romanian. As for the discrimination, Ioan-Aurel Pop writes about it being a serious thing multiple times in the source I linked. The decree's effects weren't limited just to nobility, contrary to what Borsoka is claiming.

Yup, not counting neologisms. Anyway, the gist is that Romanian nationalists are more fanatical and more misbehaving in their claim they have WP:THETRUTH than Hungarian nationalists. It's not their POV which is a problem, but their behavior.

I have to tell you that in many Western countries Romanian language is taught together with Slavic languages (at faculty level). tgeorgescu (talk) 13:17, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Just a side remark: I have never stated that the "decree" (I assume the Decree of Torda/Turda) was limited to the nobility. Borsoka (talk) 13:20, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I conflated you with someone else:

such like second class citizenship did not exist in the country, the rights of the nobles were different than the peasants, regardless, of ethnicity, etc.(KIENGIR (talk) 19:29, 4 December 2020 (UTC))

Quoted by tgeorgescu (talk) 13:34, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

About WP:SOCK or WP:MEAT: I have seen enough walls of text from Romanian nationalists and these walls promise nothing good. tgeorgescu (talk) 14:42, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I noticed a pattern of behaviour that's worrying and thought to bring it to the attention of admins. Not sure what the walls of text of past Romanian nationalists have to do with me or any future reports though. Like I said, I'm open to any investigation but for the time being I'd just like to focus on Borsoka instead of the constant deflecting. The regular subtle changes to promote immigrationism he does might not be damning, but mass removals of sourced text? I don't see how that's constructive, especially when it's done for whitewashing. Also, regarding language, even if not counting neologisms, Slavic words still don't make up "most" of the language. 16:12, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Well, the POV of the Romanian nationalists is this: if they do not engage in full-blown nationalist propaganda, Romania will lose Transylvania any time soon. I'm not saying that either nationalist side is right; I am saying that Hungarian nationalists learned to behave and they integrated fine in the system of Misplaced Pages Community, while all Romanian nationalists who posted WP:WALLS in the past got either indeffed or topic-banned. Those walls are their modus operandi. tgeorgescu (talk) 16:15, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

You may want to comment on the relevant article's Talk page about the "mass removal of sourced text". I do not remember any case of whitewashing. Borsoka (talk) 16:18, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

So, what I am telling to Romanian nationalists isn't Hungarian nationalists are right, but: learn to behave and become integrated into our Borg hive mind. So, a side is well-behaved and integrated, while the other side shoots itself in the foot time after time. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:14, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

My last comment was to focus specifically on the examples I gave instead of deflection and instead I just get more talk about sides, nationalists and other users. 18:50, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

My point: such approach failed time after time. What makes you think it will succeed this time? Also, the WP:MEAT evidence is pretty damning: not only writing WP:WALLS, but also writing style, e.g. use of bold letters and other sorts of headings, which are rather unusual at Misplaced Pages.

It's either too many bold letters or all caps (shouting): , . Seems copy/pasted from a nationalist propaganda website.

Oh, yes, I forgot: WP:BOOMERANG, meaning the complainer is not exempted from criticism.

I think it is an well-established fact that extreme right publications abuse bold letters or all caps. Anyway, among intellectuals such abuse is not appreciated, see e.g. https://www.asice.se/index.php/tep/guidelines tgeorgescu (talk) 19:46, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

You know what, you're right. I'm a full-blown extreme-right nationalist meatpuppet despite never having edited history pages or pushed views like these before. I noticed POV pushing and made sure I compile a detailed list because I don't believe throwing around accusations without evidence but that's much less believable than the absolute damning evidence of me using bold.

I retract this whole report. It was clearly a waste of time thinking I could come here to receive independent review of a consistent pattern of abuse. 19:52, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

All I am saying: such reports have been made before, and your writing style has similarities with such past reports. See also https://people.ok.ubc.ca/rlawrenc/teaching/writingTips.html

Also, for an editor with 61 edits in article space and 8 edits in article talk space, you must have paid an incredible amount of research effort for edits that happened since many years ago, or else you have showed it off. tgeorgescu (talk) 20:57, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, it must take a true detective to notice a pattern here. Anyway like I said, I'm retracting the report so you can stop beating a dead horse.

Please sign your messages. Please also read the article's talk page to understand the reasoning of the changes if you want to make others believe that you are a "true detective". I also suggest that before filing a report completed by a banned user you should check its factual accuracy. For instance, an editor who has not edited an article for years could hardly be accused of owning it. Borsoka (talk) 01:04, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

They have reverted a lot of additions actually says nothing (we all did). tgeorgescu (talk) 01:36, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Continuing block evasion from Ninenine99

• Ninenine99 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Ninenine99 was blocked indefinitely earlier this year and has become increasingly persistent with block evasion - 2603:8000:B01:8AD4:DD28:CA5C:B909:FE36 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) is the most recent, active today.

There has been a succession of /64 ranges blocked but it appears that Ninenine99 has learned how to get around them.

• 2603:8000:B03:5D32:0:0:0:0/64 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · block user · block log) was blocked last week after disrupting since late May.

Past IP ranges have included:

• 2603:8000:B00:0:0:0:0:0/48 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · block user · block log)
• 2603:8000:B02:E142:0:0:0:0/64 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · block user · block log)
• 2603:8000:B00:CB5E:0:0:0:0/64 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · block user · block log)

Is a wider rangeblock possible? --Sable232 (talk) 22:56, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Yes — 2603:8000:b01:8ad4:dd28:ca5c:b909:fe36/46 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) incluses all of these ranges, and almost no one else. All IP's geolocate to the Gateway Cities area. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 13:10, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Content dispute with DonFB amounting to personal attack

Talk with DonFB

I'm having extreme difficulty talking with DonFB (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) justifying his rewrites/revert over my edits. We have unresolvable conflicts of interest, and just like policy states, the repeated undos is aggravating and stressful. I would like an administrator's opinion, whether his behavior constitutes to personal attack, particularly when he would slyly pick at old wounds, like mentioning the previous ANI incident, or smugly bragging that his edit would remain stable for the period of a page protection. I've reposted this from the administrator's noticeboard.

Recent:

Archive "brevity". I rest comfortably knowing that my improved version will be stable for the next four days.... :-) DonFB (talk) 13:17, 23 May 2019 (UTC) {ping|DonFB}} 133 KB (14,999 words) - 12:04, July 15, 2021

Shencypeter (talk) 00:51, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Comment - this seems to be a content dispute between the two of you. I've asked at WT:AV for others to join in and help find consensus. Mjroots (talk) 18:28, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Oklo Adiga Using Misplaced Pages For Promotional Purposes

Oklo Adiga (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I would have taken this to COIN but this doesn’t involve one article but a pattern of creating rather dubious articles. Their Talk page tells the whole story and the aforementioned pattern.

• On the article Da Great

• see this
• see this
• see this
• see this
• On the The article Bayo Ododo
• see this
• see this (second deletion)
• They were warned against paid editing by Spiderone See the warning but apparently didn’t get the message.
• Today they created this article which is both promotional and a possible COI editing. Celestina007 (talk) 01:49, 24 July 2021 (UTC)