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Equine Shiatsu was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 19 April 2012 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Shiatsu. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.

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Nice dogma you got there

"Neither qi nor meridians exist." Lol, I don't get how sh*t like this actually can read on a Misplaced Pages article. A contribution to an encyclopedia should never be based on biased opinions, only neutral facts. No one is qualified to say that "qi doesn't exist", that's like saying that "there was nothing before the big bang". There is no compelling evidence for either of those statements. Both are out of our scope right now. Science is not almighty and all-knowing although humans like to think so, and can't yet acquire information about certain things, but that's just a matter of time. Think about quantum mechanics: nowadays it is a well-known scientific fact that eg. quantum particles exist, but not even a long ago anyone would have called a theory like that "pseudo-/fringe science" and "far out". There's some pretty weird stuff going on on the quantum level which is transforming our conceptions about the world, and findings from quantum physics have already forced science to expand its' borders quite a bit. I see absolutely no reason to believe that science couldn't uncover the mystery of what is called "qi" sometime in the future. Maybe it even has something to do with quantum mechanics... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:14ba:1ffc:9300:4def:39f3:6f98:50d9 (talk • contribs) 20:05, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

1. New contributions go to the bottom.
2. The usual second sentence after "Nice * you got there" is "Would be a pity if something happened to it".
3. This page is not a forum, it is for improving the article.
4. The only thing qi and quantum mechanics have in common is that many people do not understand them. That is not enough to draw a connection between them. --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:05, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Recent changes

AlexClwn you seem to be repeatedly trying to change the article to your preferred version, but there are problems with your edits:

• A section on "Efficacy" should discuss efficacy up-front, rather than making it a subordinate "however" clause.
• We generally don't go into the weeds discussing types of study, numbers of trial subjects etc. Misplaced Pages is meant to summarize.
• Per WP:MEDMOS Misplaced Pages does not refer to "patients".

Rather than edit war, perhaps explain what you are trying to achieve, because it doesn't look very good so far as attempted. Alexbrn (talk) 05:19, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Qi and Meridians are unproven to exist, rather than do not exist.

It is a bit unfair to claim that Qi and Meridians do not exist. It should be treated as any other religious based belief that can not be proven. It is neutral to not make a case for one side of the opinion or the other. It would be as wrong to say that Qi and Meridians do exist, as it is to say that they don't exist. Paladin359 (talk) 08:45, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

e/c Haha, that is like saying we cannot say the earth is round because nobody has proven it not flat yet. This isn't a religion either. Sheesh. -Roxy the inedible dog . wooF 08:50, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Furthermore, this talk page came up at the top of my watchlist just now, and I didn't see you edit warring. Naughty. -Roxy the inedible dog . wooF 08:56, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

The Earth has absolutely been proven to be round. Unlike Qi, you can see the state of the Earth. Qi an incredibly important part of the religion, Taoism. Paladin359 (talk) 09:23, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, but as our cited sources discuss, proponents want to claim it's scientific too. See for example: Alexbrn (talk) 09:32, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Something that is claimed to be utilised in medical treatments but “can not be proven” sounds a little pseudoscientific to me. And thanks for that link, Alexbrn, I’ve now wasted some time trying to find the original source for the quotation from Albert Szent-Györgyi (I think it might have been a lecture given in 1972, but can’t find the text of it to confirm). Brunton (talk) 19:17, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Scientific Reasoning

Dear @Roxy the dog:, You reverted my edit on Shiatsu in which I replaced "good" with "scientific" to keep true to the source. I would like to know your reasoning for this decision as "return to last good" isn't an explanation. Thank you. ✯✬✩⛥InterestGather (talk) 15:33, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

This is a recurrent topic. The problem often expressed about saying "scientific evidence" is that it can imply there are other ways of proving beyond the purview of science. Another problem is that editors will spring up pointing at a crappy journal article on Shitsu saying "look, there is evidence! Misplaced Pages lies". So "no good" covers the bases, and is also technically correct when referencing a secondary source which has sifted the evidence. If readers are really curious they can click the hyperlink for more info. Alexbrn (talk)

E/C That is so strange. My return to good (it seemed at the time) removed a swathe of the "Timeline" nonsense as well as your edit, and yet the edit history says otherwise. I seems I just replaced the word "scientific" with good. That was deliberate too, as using the word scientific in that sentence implies that there is some evidence, which is not the case. I see that since your edit replacing your wording, another editor has made the same edit as me. -Roxy the happy dog . wooF 15:47, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

"neither qi nor meridians exist"

Claims on Misplaced Pages must be backed by reliable sources. The cited source does not say that qi and meridians are nonexistent. They say that qi is unverifiable and meridians are not supported by evidence. We should also keep in mind that no claim in science is ever considered to have absolute certainty, only support or lack of support. I have updated the article to be more accurate to the source. Also I should note that the Accupressure article goes into more detail regarding meridians and we don't need to be duplicating it. The sources cited for this blurb do not apply to Shiatsu specifically but Chinese traditional medicine in general. MarshallKe (talk) 13:36, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I have restored the article to the good version before your edit, per the source, which says "There is no scientific evidence that shiatsu can cure or prevent any type of disease, including cancer." -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 15:24, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Do you notice that "There is no scientific evidence that shiatsu can cure or prevent any type of disease, including cancer." is not synonymous with "neither qi nor meridians exist"? MarshallKe (talk) 15:40, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

... and you are pointing this out because? -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 15:52, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

• The status quo text is a good summary of the cited sources, and the content is necessary for a NPOV. MarshallKe, now edit warring, has been alerted to the WP:Discretionary sanctions in place for this topic area. Alexbrn (talk) 15:54, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

The "status quo" text is a not at all a summary of the cited sources and is obviously POV and inconsistent with both NPOV and the cited article. MarshallKe (talk) 16:00, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Qi is a myth. For WP:PSCI policy reasons we need to be upfront about that. Alexbrn (talk) 16:05, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree. In order to best be upfront about pseudoscience, we should demonstrate that science has studied the topic and found no evidence for it. This is what my edit does. MarshallKe (talk) 16:36, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

The SBM source says, Acupuncture meridians and acupoints are imaginary until proven otherwise. The Ernst source says, Concepts such as the qi of Chinese traditional medicine are myths Are you saying that "imaginary" and "myth" do not imply "does not exist"? --Hob Gadling (talk) 16:10, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

The Ernst source later says "the existence of qi can neither be proven nor disproven". Would you say that the source conflicts with itself? MarshallKe (talk) 16:29, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

No. That's true of things many quasi-religious things that don't exist, like faith healing powers e.g. Alexbrn (talk) 16:47, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Neither can the existence of Russell's teapot, which doesn't exist either. So what? That quote is inconsequential. --Hob Gadling (talk) 16:53, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

We can discuss epistemology all day, but what really matters here is that we don't misrepresent the WP:RS material. I'm starting to think it's simply time to escalate this to WP:DR as we are unable to agree on what the source says. MarshallKe (talk) 16:58, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

• As a gesture of good faith, I'd like to share that I personally strongly suspect accupuncture and most of Chinese traditional medicine to be quackery. I scheduled a massage the other day and I discovered that the therapist was an accupuncture/pressure/Chinese traditional medicine practitioner. The things she was trying to get me to believe came across as some of the most quack stuff I've ever heard. We need to promote scientific skepticism, and the way to do that is to promote the scientific method and discourage making claims that can't be proven. Negative claims such as "qi does not exist" is itself, a claim that cannot be proven. The burden of proof lies with the one making the claim, regardless of whether it is a negative claim or a positive claim, and a Proof of impossibility is an extremely high standard that is usually not achievable outside the realm of mathematics.

WP:FRINGE is not a blank check to make unproven negative claims against pseudoscientific topics. It is an obligation to hold accepted scientific sources in higher regard than nonscientific sources. We must not fall into the same trap as pseudoscience believers by making unproven claims. We must adhere to the principles of science and faithfully paraphrase the scientific sources, which I have done, which has been reverted now in favor of text that reads as a dogmatistic fundamentalistic afterthought and misleads the reader into thinking that science operates in the same way as a religion. MarshallKe (talk) 17:57, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

If you believe WP:FRINGE is misapplied, raise a query at WP:FT/N for more input. Alexbrn (talk) 17:58, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm under the impression noticeboards are for urgent matters and that for matters that are worth waiting for, WP:RFC is preferable. Also, the policy involved here is WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:NOR, not WP:FRINGE, as I am not looking to add information with the intention of promoting a fringe view but rather I am looking to delete a claim that does not exist in the source in favor of faithfully interpreting that source. MarshallKe (talk) 19:58, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

No, only a couple of noticeboard are for urgent matters (e.g. ANI). The question you raise is about WP:FRINGE concepts and FRINGE is part of NPOV. Launching an RfC without adequate WP:RFCBEFORE could be seen as disruptive, especially since it would seem you'd be better off dropping the WP:STICK. 06:47, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

The sources seem to say its a myth, so so do we.Slatersteven (talk) 12:48, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

• Is there any doubt within the relevant scientific community about this? If yes, report it. If no, we can state it in Wikivoice, because that would be an appropriate encyclopedic summary of available sources. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 12:53, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
• This discussion now has a post on the Fringe theories noticeboard MarshallKe (talk) 13:53, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Alexbrn thinks that using the phrase "their existence can neither be proved nor disproved" is plagiarism, and that reverting to the non-neutral blanket statement that's not supported by the cited sources is better. This is the power that the FRINGE guys have over neutrality, in the name in science. It needn't be that way. Truth and verifiability can coexist. Dicklyon (talk) 19:04, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Please do not copy portions of text from copyrighted sources into Misplaced Pages. Also note WP:V is policy, so original editorial comments are not a good idea either. Alexbrn (talk) 19:07, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Dicklyon, I think the plagiarism accusation and editorial comment accusations above are merely asides. Even if you hadn't made those mistakes, your edit would still have been reverted by Alexbrn and Roxy the dog. The main argument they're riding on is that the word "myth" is synonymous with "does not exist" and that because of Christopher Hitchens' razor, that claims can be decreed as patently false just because they are unprovable. I think both of these border on WP:SYNTH. MarshallKe (talk) 20:04, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

I know. For the same reason we don't state "God does not exist", we should stick to statements that are supported by sources that are neutral enough to allow some diversity of belief. Similarly, the statement that "There is no good evidence that shiatsu is an effective medical treatment" oversteps that statement in the cited source, that "There is no scientific evidence that shiatsu can cure or prevent any type of disease". This builds in the POV assumptions that only things that prevent or cure a disease are effective medical treatments, and that the only good evidence is "scientific" evidence. I understand that the FRINGE/MEDRS crowd has empowered themselves to run WP this way, to not let it contain any neutral coverage of alternatives to the so-called evidenced-based western medicine. It's a good thing they don't exercise similar control over WP's treatment of religions and philosophies and politics and such, which would pretty much all have to be labeled as "no good evidence for". Instead, we just neutrally describe what they are, drawing on reliable sources with multiple points of view. Shiatsu is a thing; we ought to be able to describe it without taking a strong POV position against it. Dicklyon (talk) 03:35, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

I saw this on WP:AN3; is the dispute really over whether "meridians" (A) are imaginary, or (B) do not exist? We are edit warring over "imaginary" vs. "do not exist"? Is there a more serious issue that I should investigate? User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 00:23, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Pretty much that. More particularly, if a source claims they are "imaginary", can we state in WP's voice that they "do not exist"? No, that's one POV, but the article should adopt a more neutral POV. It would be OK to say that western medical researchers can find no evidence for these things (i.e. attribute the POV), and things like that, being careful not to extrapolate beyond what's in the source. Dicklyon (talk) 03:35, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Any statement to the effect that the existence of meridians/qi "can neither be proved nor disproved" is facilely incorrect and does not belong in Misplaced Pages any more than we would say such a statement for fairies or ghosts or any other of a number of other fantastical claims. Where people have made empirical arguments that meridians/qi can be observed, their evidence has been lacking. To the extent that some claim you cannot observe the phenomenon that means that the claim has left the realm of empirical reality and stating jejune commentary over "proof or disproof" is something best left for your personal blogs. jps (talk) 02:55, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

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