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Talk:Being_and_Time/archive1

Being-With

I think this section is definitely improving as its been subjected to heavy editing. In regards to the crop reference in the second paragraph (as an example of Heidegger's modes of being), I suggest that we instead consider using the example he himself used in Being and Time - that of the doorknob. I believe this is to be found in Section 16, pages 102-107 (H.72-77) in Maquarrie and Robinson's translation, first edition. Basically, when we interact with a doorknob, we are not considering its metaphysically properties or characteristics, we simply turn it. In short, we simply use it as we see fit, such that anything could be a doorknob really. Likewise, we only consider what a doorknob is when it fails as a doorknob. In failure, we move past readiness-to-hand, and consider its presence-at-hand. and on and on... I admit I usually fall heavy handed on the technical details of this stuff (see my edits in Heideggerian terminology), but I think this one would be really helpful to all readers. Comments, suggestions? Sam 04:02, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

That will work. The reason I asked for citation of the examples given is because I have read them before, but do not remember them from Being and Time. They may have come from a secondary source, or another text of Heidegger's work. Amerindianarts 04:54, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I'm not sure how a "door knob" would be an example of "being-with". Though it is a good one for explaining how our projects "swallow up" the world, we barely notice a door knob most of the time, it fades into the background. The walking around the field is an example from "Being and Time". --Lucaas

Do you know what section it might be in? Sam 14:49, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Which, the knob or the field? The field is at H.118. Where is the knob is.Lucas

The field is a better example. The professor I had for lecture seminars on B&T used it, I just couldn't remember its source and felt it should be cited. This entire article would be much better with inline citation . Amerindianarts 15:44, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Not sure how to do inline citation, normally it is just

That is an option, or the Harvard style. Since the article is on Being and Time it doesn't need to be specified, and a reference such as (H. 263) at the end of a sentence (or Paragraph if it applys to everything in the paragraph) would work. Explanation of Harvard style is at WP:CITE, I think. Amerindianarts 17:50, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, I looked it up. However, I think inline makes the text flow badly since you need brackets and numbers etc. in the middle of paragraphs. I prefer footnotes, or an electronic equivalent, which are especially handy on the web. You can always use "Ibid" for references to the same book as the lsat reference eg, "Ibid. H263"

--Lucas

Whatever happened to op. cit.? Ibid has always been reserved for consecutive notation. Notation can change over time as editors add entries.Amerindianarts 02:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

the language "In addition to present-at-hand and ready-to-hand there is a third mode for Dasein..." is incorrect. Heidegger states that presence-at-hand and Dasein are not at all the same thing, hence presence-at-hand can not be a "mode" of Dasein. from pp. 67-68 of the 1972 Macquarrie & Robinson translation: "Being-present-at-hand a kind of Being which is essentially inappropriate to entities of Dasein's character. hose characteristics which can be exhibited in are not 'properties' present-at-hand of some entity which 'looks' so and so and is itself present-at-hand. Thus Dasein is never to be taken ontologically as an instance or special case of some genus of entities as things that are present-at-hand." --Dlkj83jdk3883ll 04:17, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Specific language, recent tag

This placement of the tag is inane. Most of these terms link to other articles which can explain their use in more detail, and because of the detail can explain in terms that represent a more NPOV. I imagine it was placed by someone who doesn't understand much about philosophical concepts and the detail required in order to explain them without excess generality and POV. Either that, or they are just too lazy to follow the links. Amerindianarts 00:17, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad someone had sense enough to remove the tag. The German terms should stay. Not only are they easier for German readers, but they are essential to English readers trying to discern conceptual distinctions. Amerindianarts 00:20, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Formatting

Why is the table of contents on the right sidebar?

Probably to eliminate white space.Amerindianarts 08:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Nope. That wasn't it. I decreased the image size and moved the TOC left.Amerindianarts 08:37, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

And why isn't there a spoiler warning?!? You guys just gave the whole book away! Madler /_contribs 05:13, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Sense of Being

We seem to have two different version of this initial section. One gives Being as an interpretive endeavor, as pre-this and that. The other is simpler leaves out issue of interpretative and tries to explain Ontology more clearly.

(a) Interpretative=

Heidegger describes Being and Time as fundamental ontology. Ontology, for Heidegger, is not an inventory of the sorts of things that exist (as the term is used by most philosophers other than Heidegger). Heidegger claims that traditional ontology takes for granted what being is, assuming that we all know what it means, or that it cannot be defined, or that all beings are medium-sized dry goods such as chairs, tables, and pieces of wax. He claims that such assumptions have led most of Western philosophy to neglect the question of being.

Instead Heidegger wants to understand being as distinguished from any specific thing that is. "'Being' is not something like an entity". Being, Heidegger proposes, is "what determines entities as entities, that in terms of which entities are already understood". Heidegger is seeking to identify the criteria or conditions by which anything can be at all.

If we grasp being, we will clarify the meaning or sense of being, where by "sense" Heidegger means that "in terms of which something becomes intelligible as something". According to Heidegger, this sense of being is a pre-theoretical competence, as theories, expressed in propositions, necessarily make assumptions about what sorts of entities exist (e.g., that there are individual things that instantiate functions). Thus in Heidegger's view, ontology would be an explanation of the understanding preceding any logic, theory, or observation. As this understanding is pre-discursive, it does not ordinarily consist of beliefs or any other propositional content. Therefore, understanding the sense of being is an interpretive procedure. "The methodological sense of phenomenological description is interpretation".

Peculiar jargon in first section of article

pre-theoretical competance.

propositions make assumptions this is a one-sentence attempt to summarise a long chapter on apophantic in B&T and can only fail. Assumptions are unavoidable whether it is a proposition or not according to Heidegger.

instantiate functions

preceding logic see section on Logos in B&T.

pre-discursive

propositional content

-- Lucas (Talk) 20:51, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

(b) Ontology

Heidegger describes Being and Time as fundamental ontology (the study of "Being", of what it is to "be" or exist). Heidegger is concerned with "Being" in general, that is, not "Being" as it applies to any particular entity. To put it in ordinary language, he is concerned with questions like, "Why is there something rather than nothing?" He claims that Western philosophy has for a long time neglected such questions. Ontology, for Heidegger, is not an inventory of the sorts of things that exist (as the term is used by most philosophers before Heidegger). Heidegger claims that traditional ontology takes for granted what being is, assuming that we all know what it means, or that it cannot be defined, or that all beings are medium-sized dry goods such as those we see in traditional philosophers' well known discussions involving chairs, tables, and pieces of wax.

Instead Heidegger wants to understand being as distinguished from any specific thing that is. "'Being' is not something like an entity". Being, Heidegger proposes, is "what determines entities as entities, that in terms of which entities are already understood". Heidegger is seeking to identify the criteria or conditions by which anything can be at all.

If we grasp being, we will clarify the meaning or sense of being, where by "sense" Heidegger means that "in terms of which something becomes intelligible as something". For Heidegger, ontology concerns the study of Being in general, and so it distances itself from any area that has any particular Being as its subject, such as: the study of life (Biology), of human beings (Anthropology), of the mind (Psychology), of numbers (Mathematics).

Comments

I think trying to cover, as (a) does, interpretation and Being and ontology in one short section is too much. The idea of interpretative (what german word is this meant to match?) is too involved to get across as part of ontology. Also the following section says that interpretative phenomenology is a major break with Husserl. There are no citations and there seems to be a peculiar use of language in explaining it as "interpretive", as pre-x and pre-y. We need a citation to talk this way about it, better just stick to Heidegger's language, there is also a terminology page on Heidegger's language which it should match and we can redirect to. I think also the explanation of onotology is better in (b).-- Lucas (Talk) 20:59, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Preaching to the converted

I have an overall problem with the way this article appears. What it lacks is any pedagogical aspect. It reads mainly for people who already know B&T. I'm not suggesting that it be aimed at a 12 year old but I think one must keep in mind two kinds of people, a) people already familiar with philosophy who have not read B&T and b) those just becoming familiar with philosophy. At the moment, as I said, it seems to be aimed at c) those who've already read B&T.

With this goal in mind, and I believe it is probably the most important goal for this page since the comprehension of B&T even challenges philosophers.

There was a reference to a page on terminology in the intro. It gives quick reference to many of B&T's neologism or compounded words, and is good to note in the beginning.

Also in the first section, "sense of being" (now renamed), it should seek to avoid peculiar jargon (pre-discursive, pre-theoretical, non-propositional) I say peculiar for terms that do not appear in B&T or are not on the terminology page (so that someone unfamiliar might be able to find out what they mean). If you wish to talk of Heidegger's use of the word "primordial" then relate it to the text where he distinguishes it from primitive and ethnology. Similarly with pre-scientific it should not be baldly stated it needs to be explained (it is used in the context of talking about the various academic subjects (not just science), eg, history, Nature, space, life, Dasein, language; and how there various subject matters must have been chosen pre-scientifically)

In addition, in explaining ontology this section had tried to show, how ontology in B&T is distanced from other kinds of study (anthropology, psychology etc.). Mention of such sciences also helps certain readers by using familiar words.

Talking about the as-structure or interpretive phenomenology at this early stage needs far more explanation for someone not familiar with these things. It is too complicated and discussion of it only occurs in B&T after quiet alot has already been covered (worldhood, care, projection, ready-to-hand, the Greek concepts of logos and phenomenon, etc. etc.) and "interpretation" is discussed in relation to "understanding" (which had already been explained) and how the circularity of interpretation is admitted ("it is never pre-suppositionless") as a problem (vital for any analytic philosopher reading this section), and the fore- structure, etc. A better section here might be called "the question of being", that explains why Heidegger thinks it is an important question, how previous philossophers on it, and, perhaps, why Dasein is where to start. -- Lucas (Talk) 04:08, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree that a simpler explanation of Heidegger is desirable. Indeed, I tried that on the main Heidegger entry a couple months ago. But the ensuing edit disputes (with User:Lucas) which followed made it a waste of time to continue. Instead, I came here, and tried a similar approach, though adding more direct citations than I would prefer, in an attempt to preclude edit conflicts. However, the process has now repeated itself, as my expository comments were extensively rewritten or jettisoned (in favor of irrelevant or dubious content—for specifics, see my edit summaries), and now even the heavily footnoted text, along with the contributions of User:Mtevfrog, have been repeatedly reverted with the above criticism of "peculiar jargon". So: if we avoid jargon, it won't be verifiably Heidegger, and User:Lucas will revert it as unverifiable or original research (much as he has attempted to do with the Heidegger entry). But if we verify it, it will be "peculiar jargon" preaching to the converted, and User:Lucas will revert it. In both cases, interestingly, the reversion will be to a version where User:Lucas' contributions dominate, despite their generally absent or poor references, his documented history of poor editing and incorrigibility in the face of counter-evidence. This is, or is very close to, a WP:OWN issue, especially since the text Lucas is reverting is extensively verified. 271828182 13:41, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

The above comment I consider 95% irrelevant, and wholly one-sided. The only reply you make to the numerous substantive points I made above is that, you think that I will call something peculiar jargon incorrectly. Ok, there is Heideggerean "jargon", I was not complaining about that, but jargon peculiar to the article (I've made this more explicit by adding a subection to the above copy of the section from the article). I have no problem with Heideggerean jargon but with using it carelessly and not providing enough background to enable someone to understand it, it is demanding on readers and must be done carefully. Please note the other issues I mentinoed in the above especially issue of the reader the article aims for (for example one might avoid any mention of "ontology" or "fundamental, basic and underlying ontology" from the first section yet give a good intro to the book. -- Lucas (Talk) 20:22, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Argumentative mention of Continental

Argument or discussion is often an important aspect of philosophy. In mentioning continental philosophy it immediately informs the reader that B&T may have been received differently across the channel in England and over in the US. This is a considerably important aspect of B&T in how it shaped the philosophy globally and not just in Germany and France. This is not a article for local people. -- Lucas (Talk)

Tendentious editing

I notice there have been problems with disruptive editing on this page. There is a simple solution to this. If there is a consensus among editors that a certain version should be the 'stable' one, then any persistent reverts away from that edit (specifically 3 in a 24 hour period) will make the reverter liable to a block, or similar action.

I propose the current version (19:07 2 Feb 2007) be the stable version for now. this refers.

If you support, or disagree, say so and sign with the four tildes. Best. Dbuckner 19:04, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

• Support Dbuckner 19:04, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
• Support: I hand't even got to this article, having been sidetracked from the main Heidegger article through several other philosophy page wars. I can't yet comment on the content, but Dbuckner's proposal on how to deal with any issues is a no-brainer. KD Tries Again 19:56, 2 February 2007 (UTC)KD
• Support (qualified): the improvements to the entry (to the opening and to the section "Introduction and Summary") are substantial, but the remaining sections are all poorly written, lacking scholarship, and disorganised. Mtevfrog 20:29, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Can you suggest some improvements via tentative edits? Just not too fast. Dbuckner 20:58, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
    • If the outcome could be something other than mere edit wars and endless talk page chatter, it might be worth undertaking the task. But the prevailing winds are fairly offputting. Mtevfrog 04:49, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
• Support: the new editors on this page have already complexified some of the content, making it impenetrable for most wiki-readers; And would put many off reading the book itself. Let us hope most of the article remains immune from these "flash edits." -- Lucas (Talk) 21:03, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
• Support, with the same reservation as Mtevfrog. The current "introduction and summary" would ideally be the beginning of a complete rewrite. 271828182 22:37, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

• Support: I find the proposed version more useful to me, at least, and can see that the situation is difficult. JJL 00:18, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Poor and unauthorised translations

There is a preference for the Macquarrie and Robinson translation of B&T and not a translation by an anonymous wiki user. At the moment the first section gives us a poor translation from the German source. See WK:OR.

The existing translation by user "27" is:

The aim of the following treatise is to concretely work through the question of the sense of being

This is translated by Macquarrie and Robinson into English in a much clearer way:

our aim in the following treatise is to work out the question of the meaning of Being and to do so concretely.

-- Lucas (Talk) 23:52, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

"There is a preference" = "User:Lucas prefers"

If my translation is "poor", I would hope that an editor would point out how I have misrendered the German. For reference, compare the original (which User:Lucas persists in deleting, for no apparent reason):

Die konkrete Ausarbeitung der Frage nach dem Sinn von “Sein” ist die Absicht der folgenden Abhandlung.

While we are talking about very minor differences, I think my rendering is both more faithful and a wee bit clearer, both of which are commonly considered virtues in translation. Also, I did not know that translations are considered original research. Is that so? So until these charges are substantiated, I will return to the previous, consensus-supported version. 271828182 04:39, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

It is not only my preference it is an academic standard to give the Macquarrie & Robinson translation, you make me laugh when you think you've improved on them. Anyhow, stick to philosophy and leave translation to those who are qualified for it. The wiki OR policy says you should rely on academic sources, your source is in German, mine in the English standard academic translation. -- Lucas (Talk) 05:17, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

You have yet to show any errors in my translation, so I don't see the basis for scoffing at my qualifications as a translator. Likewise, your charge that my translation is "poor" is still mere assertion. Are you fluent in German, yes or no? If you aren't, then I kindly suggest you spare Misplaced Pages your ignorant posturing. You are really wasting everybody's time and taxing patience with your captious editing. 271828182 05:30, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I do not have to show anything about your pet translation. This is not the place for your own translations. To what standard do you appeal? The academic standard for English renditions of Heidegger is Macquarrie and Robinson! Not ananymous user 298 on wiki one January. And no this is not just a minor issue you have populated the article with all manner of peculiar jargon and completely hidden the opening chapter of B&T in the fools errand of trying to summarise the entire book in three paragraphs! And your desperate reverts to ensure this strange jargon remains has been carried out callously without any reference to the talk pages. The only reason you've gotten away with it so far is because another flash-editor (ie, thoughtless) is happy to accomodate.

You do not waste my time, but you do waste your own, by barging in on this page all of a sudden and trying tendentious re-writes in your own had you only ensure that another like you will pass here sometime and with the same bluster comepletley re-write what you have written.

I suggest you try going back to the Heidegger article where you came from, there you will find I have not edited that page in a long time. But dont think I won't be keeping an eye on it for this jargon.-- Lucas (Talk) 06:57, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth I don't think there is a material difference between the two translations. 27's translation is a bit more literal, and some argue that literal translations, while generally awkward-looking and sometimes clumsy, are philosophically better. I have translated stuff on Wiki before, but only when no English available. I think it's best, from policy point of view to stick to referenced sources. Nothing to stop you putting a footnote ("literally, this means ..."). Lucas, you haven't answered 27's question about whether you are fluent in German. It seems churlish to criticise a translation that is more faithful to the German, even if a little more clumsy-sounding in English? 27 is perfectly right: it is more faithful. And can I also ask why you persist in deleting the German footnote? That seems wholly unreasonable. Dbuckner 07:57, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

PS having read the translation in context I must say I prefer 27's version. Reason: it ends with the idea that is the point of the sentence, whereas the other ends with the awkward 'and do so concretely', which was clearly tacked on by Macquarrie & Robinson in an effort to avoid Teutonic-sounding noun phrases. Dbuckner 08:07, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I remind Lucas that he started this edit conflict and Talk discussion with the claim that the translation is "poor". Still no support for that claim, just an attempt to shift the burden of proof. As for Lucas's appeal to "academic standard", well, it's common academic practice to do your own translating, especially when the text is as difficult as Heidegger's. At this point I am tempted to follow the example of my old teacher Mohanty and just leave all the quotes in the original German. 271828182 08:32, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Agree. Jitendra Mohanty, right? Dr Google suggests he deserves an entry here. Dbuckner 09:41, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

-Welcome to newby editors

I'd like to welcome the new editors (271828182, Mtevfrog, and Dbuckner) to this page. And hope you help to improve the article. Please read also some of the comments already made above on the talk page and in the archive.

While you are working on it remember to keep an eye on the talk page, dont just write in isolation. I think we all agree that we do want all kinds of wiki readers, to be able to understand something, even if only a little, of B&T, but more than that for them to go and read it for themselves. -- Lucas (Talk) 00:04, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Translation

As a first step, it is necessary to agree to a convention for translating the most important and recurrent terms in Heidegger's work. Obviously it is always possible to advance reasons for translating key words one way rather than another. This is precisely why a convention is necessary, an agreement that, nothing being perfect, at least it is possible to be consistent.

With that in mind, I would propose the following conventions: Sein should be translated as "being"; das Seiende should be translated as "a being" or "beings." Clearly there is a sense in which this is not completely literal, and it is also possible it can lead to some confusion for the reader. Thus some early translators of Heidegger used "entity" rather than "a being." The alternative conventions (capitalising Being; preferring "entity" to "a being") are the choice only of early translators of Heidegger. A consensus has emerged between publishers and translators of Heidegger to generally leave being uncapitalised and to prefer "a being" to "entity."

Here for instance is William McNeill, writing in the introduction to the Heidegger collection, Pathmarks (translation published 1997, many of the chapters being re-translations from earlier publications):

An effort has been made to standardize translations as far as possible throughout the text. Thus, in twelve of the fourteen essays, the German Sein is rendered as "being," and das Seiende as "a being" or "beings," depending on context (occasionally as "an entity" or "entities" to avoid confusion). In the remaining two essays, "On the Essence of Truth" and "Introduction to 'What is Metaphysics?'," Sein has been rendered as "Being" (capitalized) at the translators' request.

Again, this quotation presents the virtues of all options, but a decision has (by and large) been taken to favor "being" over "Being" and "a being" or "beings" over "entity" or "entities." This decision is replicated throughout Heidegger translations of the last couple of decades, and I believe it is the convention to be followed.

(Note: specifically in relation to Being and Time, the Macquarrie & Robinson translation uses "a being" rather than "entity" but capitalises "Being," whereas the more recent Stambaugh translation leaves "being" uncapitalised: this reflects the fact that the convention favoring "being" over "Being" is more recent than the convention favoring "a being" over "entity". The Macquarrie and Robinson translation is in this respect old-fashioned, which is one reason for the decision to undertake the new translation. Stambaugh wrote the following in her introduction : "Capitalizing 'being,' although it has the dubious merit of treating 'being' as something unique, risks implying that it is some kind of Super Thing or transcendent being. But Heidegger's use of the word 'being' in no sense refers the word to something like a being, especially not a transcendent Being. Heidegger does not want to substantivize this word, yet capitalizing the word in English does tend to imply just that.")

If this is something that can be agreed upon, perhaps the next step is possible. If it is something that produces protracted arguments, this does not bode well (and I note, by the way, that the argument I am presenting in one respect disfavours that put by my erstwhile ally in the dispute over reversion). Mtevfrog 06:41, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes I agree this is a complicated translation issue. And it is an interesting discussion that you make. But I find little in what is said that gives any reasons for preferring one over the other, it just states that it chooses on. Your intimation that a "newer" translation is a better translation, holds no weight. The first page of the M&R translation gives its reasons thus:

Heidegger translates Plato's present participle óv by this present participle (seiend) of the verb 'sein' ('to be'). We accordingly translate 'seiend' here and in a number of later passages by the present participle 'being'; where such a translation is inconvenient we shall resort to other constructions, usually adding the German in brackets. The participle 'seiend' must be distinguished from the infinitive 'sein', which we shall translate by the infinitive 'to be' or the gerund 'being'. It must also be distinguished from the important substantive 'Sein' (always capitalized), which we shall translate as 'Being' (capitalized), and from the equally important substantive 'Seiendes', which is directly derived from 'seiend', and which we shall usually translate as 'entities' or 'entities'

Another note on H.3 talks of Seiendes meaning literally 'that which is' Much can be said, they suggest, to use the nouns being or beings to translate this but it is often less confusing to use entitie(s). He notes also that entity in English philosophy has been used to mean anything no matter what its ontological status (in Heidegger it has the status of "that which is")

-- Lucas (Talk) 07:19, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I thought about this issue while writing my contributions to the article. I understand the current consensus among translators about Seiende, but think that effacing a distinction clearly chosen by Heidegger inevitably results in a loss of intent. I flirted with "be-ing", since it preserves the derivation, but by the dog that looked ugly. So—reluctantly and without enthusiasm—I stuck with "entity", which has the virtue of sounding odd, like the German. I am open to the change, perhaps including the distinction in brackets where needed.

I am strongly in agreement that Sein should not be capitalized. One of Heidegger's central criticisms of the tradition is that it misconceives being as a Being, particularly as the Supreme Being, which is exactly what the English capitalization evokes. 271828182 09:02, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes I don't mean to suggest there is no occasion where "entity" will be preferable. But I do think that if a consensus has been achieved (an achievement which took time, and effort) among translators of Heidegger about what convention to follow for the translation of these critical Heideggerian terms, the sensible thing for an encyclopedia to do is follow that convention. It is after all, and as you have put into practice, always possible to include the German, which means that a convention can be just that—a convention. So does this amount to agreement to follow these two conventions (Sein = being; das Seiende = a being, or beings) unless there are solid reasons not to do so? And can the entry now be adjusted in line with these conventions? Mtevfrog 10:43, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree, though I'd note that one major motive for my choice of "entity" was in translating "Sein ist nicht so etwas wie Seiendes", a sentence that loses the distinction under the proposed change. Throwing in the original terms in brackets would make the sentence unduly awkward, also. 271828182 08:19, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

That's a totally justifiable translation. M&R indeed translate the clause as "'Being' cannot have the character of an entity" (this is a pretty non-literal translation for other reasons, e.g., "character"), whereas Stambaugh renders it as "that 'being' is not something like a being." I think the negative in the beginning of the sentence complicates the translation of etwas, so that, to my mind, one alternative might be "being is in no way something like a being," or even "being is not anything like a being." But more generally, I don't agree that the distinction is lost—it is, after all, Heidegger's whole point that the reader learn to distinguish the question of being from questions about beings. I think the more recent convention accepts that this is a distinction readers are able to grasp. So even though I think your translation is justifiable, I don't think its the best, and I still think: if there is an accepted convention for translation (which there is—M&R is 45 years old; still a good translation, but not a reflection of current practice), it should be followed. And, again, I raise this issue partly because it is a preliminary consideration, but also as a test of whether the atmosphere is conducive to improving the article—this should be a question about which it is possible simply to decide and move on. Mtevfrog 08:43, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

As already indicated, I agree with Mtevfrog's suggestions. I was merely pointing out some of the difficulties that will arise (which, I suppose, are no more vexing than the difficulties already present due to using "entity"). The varying translations of this (relatively simple) sentence do illustrate some of the dangers of relying on "authorized" translations. (I had forgotten that M&R add "character" there!) I am fine with "being is in no way something like a being", maybe with a bracketed before the last word.271828182 16:09, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I think we need to tabulate who translated what as what in order to see all the varieties here. Remember, however, that we are dealing here with one book, and the ultimate source for that is the pages of that book itself. No doubt changes in translation will continue to occur with it so you might be joining a moving target. So what are the issues:

M&R, the original MacQuarrie & Robinson convention (long standing academic standard) and against which McNeill and Stambaugh argue.

(A) Sein, a noun (when capitalized in the German) M&R: translated as Being (capitalized). William McNeill: translated as being (lower case) Stambaugh: translated as being (lower case)

(B) sein, infinitive (lower case) M&R: translated as "to be" or being, language permitting.

(C) Seiende(s), noun. M&R: translated usually as noun, entity(ies), in English this often sounds less awkward, sometime translated as "a being(s)".

(D) seiend (lower case), participle M&R: translated as participle, being.

The uses in the article have been stable for some time. See first section of article it refrains from the capitalized version. I don't see what the fuss about capitalizing, it is used in Heidegger's language in B&T as a name after all and is not yet some kind of un-nameable. We capitalize names and titles all the time in English. Failing to capitalize might lose the distinction between Seing and sein. But since the article has always used lower case and there seems to be a consensus for it, that is fine. -- Lucas (Talk) 22:19, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I've reverted a rather odd edit made by Lucas where he cites to an English translation, against a German quotation. Lucas, my patience is wearing thin. If you persist in these tendentious reverts, I escalate this. Do you understand? Dbuckner 09:18, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

User Dbuckner, escalate all you want; I am reverting your changes. You obviously do not have the least notion what you are talking about and once again you demonstrate this in plain view, and in the midst of a discussion to which you have nothing to contribute. Your intrusion is typical and unwanted. I should not even have to rebut your point, in any case, you are wrong to think an anonymous user's translation of German is better than the standard academic translation. If you continue to make such intrusions, let me make one thing clear, I will look further into your case! -- Lucas (Talk) 09:56, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Prevailing winds

"The prevailing winds are fairly offputting" says Mtevfrog. The problem is I'm not an expert on Heidegger, and it is always difficult for a non-expert to make a judgment. However, I know a troll when I see one, and I'm on a troll hunt. My judgment is that Mtevfrog and the editor who persists in calling himself an 8-digit number have done good work elsewhere, their contributions seem logical and sound, and well-written, and well-researched. But there is one person here, whose contributions are not always so welcome. Is that the general consensus? The problem is that Misplaced Pages proceeds by consensus, not by expert credentials, so other methods have to be used. The method is, draft edits, to whole paragraphs if need be, then make the change in a single edit. Then get consensus (the good editors can rely on my support, and I can draft reinforcements if necessary), and the edit stays. Dbuckner 12:12, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Proposed sections to be deleted

I propose deleting the sections "Rejection of Descartes," "The philosophy of presence," "Being-with," "The scandal of philosophy," and "Time, temporality." Not that these are not topics about which one might want to write, but that in their current state they are not fit for revision. Hence if they are themes to be discussed in the entry, they need to be written again from the ground up. Mtevfrog 18:12, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I support this proposal; while sections discussing his critique of Descartes and temporality are surely helpful, I think Being-with is a bit narrow and when re-written might better serve the reader if it dealt with the broader concept of Being-in-the-world and 'encountering'. I might also add that in undertaking a significant and difficult task with multiple strong-willed editors, it would perhaps be in everyone's interest to be patient and try to give adequate time between edits, comments, and drafts, so that everyone can read and digest the information. - Sam 00:29, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Sam, the kind of "flash-edting" that has been taking place here only makes an article "appear" neater, or something, on the page, but it often removes much of the meat. The problem is that though much of wiki-philosophy has un-referenced material there is still something to be gleaned from it. I also think there is a big danger here of alienating the average reader if the numerous examples are not included. Nor do we want too many articles in this area "flash-edited" by the same people, diversity is good. -- Lucas (Talk) 02:46, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree, these sections are largely unreferenced (or have an asssumed reference to the book). I propose however, not to delete them until we get them re-written or new sections that cover the same ground are written. to take one example from the section "philosophy of presence":

His view inverts the traditional priority of theory over practice. For him the theoretical view is artificial and comes from just looking at something without any involvement, such an experience is 'levelled off'. For Heidegger this attitude is given the moniker, "present-at-hand" and it is parasitic upon our more fundamental mode of interaction, called "ready-to-hand". Parasitic in the sense that in our history we must first have an attitude or mood toward the world before we can adopt a scientific or neutral attitude toward it. Such a re-evaluation of science allows him to say, for example, that the friend caught sight of across the road is in fact closer than the street upon which one walks, that the voice on a phone is closer than the handpiece, that the glasses pushed back on your head, can be, when not found, considered as remote and far away.

Now the problem is that this passage seems largely to be correct, if not referenced. The issue of theory and practice are crucial for understanding Heidegger. The examples given here also are valuable and should not be deleted. But rather than get into the minutia of this passage, let us see how this theme, which is an important one for Heidegger is proposed to be covered.

I also propose deleting or moving the first section of "Introduction and Summary" I think it does not serve as a good intro, it is too advanced, dense and jargon-laden (who talks "pre-logical or pre-dicsursive"?) for your average wiki-reader. A long elaboration is needed before getting into the promordiality of ready-to-hand. And unlike the above quoted passage it is not pedagogical and is very abstract and without examples. It would be better later on on the article. Something along the lines of an explanation of this "philosophy of presence" or an explanation of the differences between present-at-hand and ready-to-hand might server the intro better. The topic of Being needs a section on its own and one that does not refer to the more difficult aspects such as the issue of "understanding and interpretation", or the as-structure or the fore-structure. The current intro tries to cover all these complex issues in two short paragraphs! -- Lucas (Talk) 19:38, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Lucaas

I respectfully but firmly disagree with the proposals of Lucaas in relation to this entry. Mtevfrog 21:58, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

This is not a plebiscite but a talk page, a blank opinion agreeing or disagreeing is of no interest to us. -- Lucas (Talk) 02:31, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Just letting you know that the work of a poor editor has made contributing to this entry too unappealing to continue. Good luck to those with greater patience. Mtevfrog 03:00, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Mtevfrog

I firmly agree with proposals that are related to the structure of Being and Time. It is the subject of this article. -- Lucas (Talk) 02:22, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Discussion of how to Approach an article on B&T

This is just to open discussion on these issues, it does not yet propose any particular changes.

What should be the various sections from the book?

We need to agree here also on what needs to be covered in an article on B&T. The intro is at the moment largely undisputed. However, the first section on "Being" and many further sections seem to be unclear. So should we attempt to give a full "summary" of the book? Which chapters in B&T should be covered which skipped, and why? Should our summaries be confined to certain spans of pages of B&T or should we attempt over-arching summaries of 100s of pages?

Difficulty of summarising it?

Now it is widely known that B&T is a difficult book, even some philosophers consider it obfuscating, with too many neo-logism etc. So given that the book is over 500 pages of quite intricately argued positions how can one summarise it? Or should we avoid summary? Maybe instead we should try and give "samples" from it and not try to assert some overall definitive meaning or result from it. Remember also, that the book itself argues against the forgetfulness of this kind of mis-use of assertions, of apophantic talk,etc.

Quantity?

There are only a couple of pages here in the article in comparison to the 500 pages of the book, so even to summarise the first 10 pages of B&T could be enough for an entire article.

The later re-interpretation of B&T?

There is an argument, though I do not make it, that the idea of Being is not the main "outcome" of B&T and, with that in mind it is possible to start the intro with some more historical or textual information, eg, about how Heidegger got to write the book, the initial reviews of it, a photo of the first (Engish) edition might also be nice. etc.

--Lucas (Talk) 20:46, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

1. ...
2. In German, Heidegger is distinguishing Sein (the verb-derived abstract noun corresponding to 'being' in English) from Seiend, the German gerund of the verb sein ('to be'). In English, however, the gerund of 'to be' is also 'being'. To preserve Heidegger's distinction, translators often render 'Seiend' as 'entity'.
3. "'Sein' ist nicht so etwas wie Seiendes", Sein und Zeit, p. 4.
4. "...das Sein, das, was Seiendes als Seiendes bestimmt, das, woraufhin Seiendes, mag es wie immer erörtert werden, je schon verstanden ist", Sein und Zeit, p. 6.
5. "aus dem her etwas als etwas verständlich wird", Sein und Zeit, p. 151.
6. Sein und Zeit, p. 37.
7. In German, Heidegger is distinguishing Sein (the verb-derived abstract noun corresponding to 'being' in English) from Seiend, the German gerund of the verb sein ('to be'). In English, however, the gerund of 'to be' is also 'being'. To preserve Heidegger's distinction, translators often render 'Seiend' as 'entity'.
8. "'Sein' ist nicht so etwas wie Seiendes", Sein und Zeit, p. 4.
9. "...das Sein, das, was Seiendes als Seiendes bestimmt, das, woraufhin Seiendes, mag es wie immer erörtert werden, je schon verstanden ist", Sein und Zeit, p. 6.
10. "aus dem her etwas als etwas verständlich wird", Sein und Zeit, p. 151.

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