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| *'''Comment''' (nom). I'm not familiar with this newspaper and don't read Chinese, so I can't vouch for these clips myself. Either way, I don't think this is grounds for a keep unless a fluent Chinese+English editor agrees that they constitute a ] pass and is willing to rewrite the article from the ground up using these sources; if machine-translated articles are "worse than nothing", articles written by someone without dual fluency entirely based on machine translations don't have a very strong claim to being any better than nothing. But I don't see any reason not to write a short section using the facts from these into ], even if it's done from machine translation; I doubt that the machine translation of even a middling suspect source is likely to be wrong about the base facts of the matter in this case. Really though, it doesn't look like there is actually a lot of ''fact'' here to make an article out of. "After days of care ... he cried less", for eg, is not going to be all that encyclopedic no matter how reliable the source is. So I think a redirect is still the best option. Thanks to Cunard finding Siahaan's name in Chinese, the bit in ] can at least be ref'd now. -- ] (]) 03:36, 10 December 2021 (UTC) | *'''Comment''' (nom). I'm not familiar with this newspaper and don't read Chinese, so I can't vouch for these clips myself. Either way, I don't think this is grounds for a keep unless a fluent Chinese+English editor agrees that they constitute a ] pass and is willing to rewrite the article from the ground up using these sources; if machine-translated articles are "worse than nothing", articles written by someone without dual fluency entirely based on machine translations don't have a very strong claim to being any better than nothing. But I don't see any reason not to write a short section using the facts from these into ], even if it's done from machine translation; I doubt that the machine translation of even a middling suspect source is likely to be wrong about the base facts of the matter in this case. Really though, it doesn't look like there is actually a lot of ''fact'' here to make an article out of. "After days of care ... he cried less", for eg, is not going to be all that encyclopedic no matter how reliable the source is. So I think a redirect is still the best option. Thanks to Cunard finding Siahaan's name in Chinese, the bit in ] can at least be ref'd now. -- ] (]) 03:36, 10 December 2021 (UTC) | ||
| **Are there any Chinese-speaking editors familiar with this that could be brought in from relevant projects? ] (]) 11:51, 10 December 2021 (UTC) | **Are there any Chinese-speaking editors familiar with this that could be brought in from relevant projects? ] (]) 11:51, 10 December 2021 (UTC) | ||
| *'''Keep:''' per Cunard - ] (]) 01:36, 13 December 2021 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 01:36, 13 December 2021
Novemthree Siahaan
AfDs for this article:- Articles for deletion/Novemthree Siahaan
- Articles for deletion/Novemthree Siahaan (2nd nomination)
- Articles for deletion/Novemthree Siahaan (3rd nomination)
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The one reference does not appear to be a reliable source, and the entire "background" section has had a citations needed tag on it for over a decade. I didn't find anything that looked reliable on a google search, either. This survived two AfDs in the 00s, but none of the "keep" reasons look particularly compelling by current standards.
If anyone does turn up a reliable source, I propose adding the information to Gigantiform cementoma instead of retaining this as a stand-alone page, unless sources can be found for the whole thing. (Gigantiform cementoma is a stub, and moving this entire article there would overpower it.) asilvering (talk) 20:21, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. asilvering (talk) 20:21, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Disability-related deletion discussions. asilvering (talk) 20:21, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Medicine-related deletion discussions. asilvering (talk) 20:21, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Indonesia-related deletion discussions. asilvering (talk) 20:21, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Taiwan-related deletion discussions. asilvering (talk) 20:21, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
- Merge Support the merge to the article about the disease itself. Oaktree b (talk) 23:19, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
- If you can find a reliable source, I'm happy to take the time to write a brief summary of it into the Gigantiform cementoma article. -- asilvering (talk) 22:00, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
- Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
- French, Karl (2006-04-10). "Critics Choice Television Karl French". Financial Times. p. 14. ProQuest 249893990.
The article notes: "If you saw the original Extraordinary People: The Boy with a Tumour for a Face (Five 9.00pm) you won't have forgotten the story of Novemthree Siahaan. When representatives of a Taiwanese medical charity happened on Novemthree's family in 2004 they found them shunned by their own community, who considered the boy's disfigured face a sign of some divine curse. Novemthree was actually suffering from a genetic disorder in which dental tissue forms tumours that distort the bones in the face. He had what turned out to be the largest recorded facial tumour and the first film traced his progress through four groundbreaking operations undertaken in a Buddhist hospital in Taiwan in which surgeons removed a kilogramme of the tumour, reshaped his face and gave him the chance to live a relatively normal life for a while at least. This heartbreaking follow-up film catches up with the family a year on from these operations and shows the parents having to decide whether or not to subject Novemthree to still more procedures that could just as easily end as prolong his life."
- 林碧玉 (2020). 人醫仁醫：打造醫療桃花源. Taiwan: 如是文化. ISBN 978-986-550-642-1. Retrieved 2021-12-05.
The book notes: "愛在異鄉的記憶近日,從歐美各國紛紛傳來關懷印尼巴淡島諾文狄的訊息,原來是BBC電視台,播出花蓮慈濟醫院團隊們為諾文狄變臉,成功地挽回諾文狄生命的專輯。BBC電視台記者針對病況尋求專家的佐證,專程前往美國明尼蘇達州的梅約醫學中心,訪問該院知名的整型"
From Google Translate: "Recently, the memory of love in a foreign land has sent messages of caring for Novemthree in Batam, Indonesia, from European and American countries. It turned out to be the BBC TV station that aired the Hualien Tzu Chi Hospital team’s face change for Novemthree. The album that successfully saved Novemthree's life. A reporter from BBC television sought expert evidence for his condition and made a special trip to the Mayo Medical Center in Minnesota, USA, to visit the well-known plastic surgery of the hospital."
- "河馬男孩諾文狄" . nio (in Chinese). Archived from the original on 2021-12-05. Retrieved 2021-12-05.
The article notes: "令人悲傷的是，《河馬男孩狄文諾 》拍攝完成後，諾文狄於2005年9月14日去世。腫瘤再度開始增生，醫生認為進一步手術的風險過高。他的呼吸出現困難，最後終於導致死亡。" From Google Translate: "Sadly, Novemthree died on September 14, 2005 after the filming of "The Hippo Boy Di Vinno" was completed. The tumor has started to proliferate again, and the doctor believes that the risk of further surgery is too high. He had difficulty breathing, which eventually led to death."
- 黎世萍 (2004-06-23). "印尼河馬寶寶 變臉成功: 五歲諾文狄 罹巨大型齒堊質瘤 慈濟手術四次 吃蛋糕慶新生" . United Daily News (in Chinese). p. A6.
The article notes:
From Google Translate:罹患巨大型齒堊質瘤的印尼五歲男童諾文狄，經過慈濟醫學中心醫療團隊四次手術後，變臉成功，昨天出院。諾文狄的父親夏漢昨天含淚向慈濟表達感恩，感謝慈濟讓愛子獲得重生。
來自印尼巴淡島的諾文狄，是罹患巨大型齒堊質瘤全球年紀最小、腫瘤最大的病患，看起來像「河馬寶寶」。三月八日來到花蓮慈濟醫學中心，前後接受三次腫瘤切除手術及一次縮口手術。
The five-year-old Indonesian boy Novemthree, who suffered from a huge chalky tooth tumor, changed his face successfully after four operations by the medical team of the Tzu Chi Medical Center and was discharged from the hospital yesterday. Novemthree’s father Xia Han expressed gratitude to Tzu Chi in tears yesterday, thanking Tzu Chi for rebirth of his beloved son.
Novemthree, from Batam Island, Indonesia, is the world's youngest patient with the largest tumor and the largest tumor in the world. He looks like a "hippo baby". Came to Hualien Tzu Chi Medical Center on March 8 and underwent three tumor resection operations and one necking operation before and after.
- 王燕華 (2004-04-17). "凌鋒訪證嚴 談醫療團隊精神" . United Daily News (in Chinese). p. B2.
The article notes: "談到醫療團隊的合作時，證嚴法師說，慈濟醫院最近正為罹患罕見「巨大型齒堊質瘤」來台求醫的印尼兒童諾文狄動刀，諾文狄因為臉上長了四顆大腫瘤前來求醫，昨天剛動完第二個階段的腫瘤切除手術，預計一個月後作最後一次的右上顎腫瘤切除。" From Google Translate: "Speaking of the cooperation of the medical team, Master Cheng Yan said that Tzu Chi Hospital is currently operating a knife for Indonesian child Novemthree who has come to Taiwan to seek medical treatment with a rare "giant odontoma". Novemthree has a long face. Four large tumors came to seek medical attention. The second stage of tumor resection was just completed yesterday. It is expected that the last right upper jaw tumor will be removed one month later."
- 王燕華 (2004-04-16). "七小時割腫瘤 印童喜獲小下巴" . United Daily News (in Chinese). p. B2.
The article notes:
From Google Translate:遠從印尼來台求醫的頭顱變形兒童諾文狄，昨天由花蓮慈濟醫院團隊動刀，執行高難度的下巴腫瘤切除手術，共切下約四百五十公克的腫瘤。醫療團隊觀察他術後狀況穩定，預定在一個月後作最後一次的右上顎腫瘤切除。
五歲的諾文狄因頭顱嚴重變形，嘴部和舌頭腫大，臉部長出四個大腫瘤，因腫瘤壓迫呼吸道，喘得很厲害。上個月由爸爸布萊精陪同，從印尼巴淡島來花蓮求醫，慈濟醫師診斷他罹患國際罕見的「巨大型齒堊質瘤」，必須切除臉部腫瘤，開刀過程將面臨失血過多、感染的危險。
Novemthree, a child with a deformed skull who came to Taiwan for medical treatment from Indonesia, was operated by a team from Hualien Tzu Chi Hospital yesterday to perform a highly difficult chin tumor resection, and a total of about 450 grams of tumor was removed. The medical team observed that he was in a stable condition after the operation, and he was scheduled to undergo the last resection of the right upper jaw tumor in one month.
Five-year-old Novemthree suffered from severe head deformity, swelling of his mouth and tongue, and four large tumors on his face. The tumors compressed the respiratory tract and caused severe panting. Accompanied by his father Blei Jing last month, he came to Hualien from Batam Island, Indonesia for medical treatment. Tzu Chi doctors diagnosed him as suffering from the internationally rare "giant chalk tumor." Risk of infection.
- 范振和 (2004-04-06). "印尼男童諾文狄 手術後良好" . United Daily News (in Chinese). p. B4.
The article notes: "來自印尼巴淡島的男童諾文狄已度過手術後組織腫脹階段，傷口癒合狀況良好，昨天開始從胃造廔灌食，預計一星期內拆線，再擇期進行第二階段下顎手術。"
From Google Translate: "The boy Novemthree from Batam Island, Indonesia, has passed the post-operative tissue swelling stage and his wound is healing well. He started feeding from his stomach yesterday. The sutures are expected to be removed within one week, and then the second stage of jaw surgery will be performed as an option."
- 范振和 (2004-04-02). "切除腫瘤 印尼男童安度危機 艱鉅挑戰 國際媒體關注 慈濟醫療團隊開刀七小時 未出現大量失血" . United Daily News (in Chinese). p. B4.
The article notes: "花蓮慈濟醫學中心醫療團隊昨天上午為來自印尼巴淡島、臉部長出四個大腫瘤的五歲男童諾文狄手術，未出現大出血情況，第一階段的手術成功，讓醫療團隊信心倍增。諾文狄的父親布萊精紅著眼眶感謝醫療團隊以及證嚴法師、志工們的關懷。" From Google Translate: "The medical team of Hualien Tzu Chi Medical Center yesterday morning performed the operation on Novemthree, a five-year-old boy from Batam, Indonesia, who had four large tumors on his face. There was no major bleeding. The first stage of the operation was successful, which boosted the confidence of the medical team. . Novemthree's father, Bly Jing, has red eyes and thanked the medical team, Master Cheng Yen, and volunteers for their care."
- 范振和 (2004-04-01). "與腫瘤拔河 印童刀下生死戰 手術高難度 醫療團隊決採分次分段 慈濟設專屬網頁 盼你 起來打氣" . United Daily News (in Chinese). p. B2.
The article notes: "醫療團隊眼科主任蔡榮坤表示，諾文狄的右眼球已因腫瘤壓迫，失去視覺能力，左眼視神經還算正常，但「會長大的腫瘤」讓醫療團隊不得不和時間賽跑，因此將先切除左上顎腫瘤，以保全左眼視力。"
From Google Translate: "Cai Rongkun, director of the ophthalmology department of the medical team, said that Novemthree’s right eyeball has been compressed by the tumor and lost his vision. The optic nerve of the left eye is still normal. Tumor of the upper jaw to preserve the vision of the left eye."
- 范振和 (2004-03-23). "祝福諾文狄 慈濟附小送暖 頭顱腫瘤 印尼小弟弟來台就醫 師生寫卡片打氣 希望他早日康復" . United Daily News (in Chinese). p. B4.
The article notes: "諾文狄知道自己和他人長得不一樣，防衛心很重，不喜歡身體被觸碰，每次護士抽痰或清理氣切處時，諾文狄都會生氣踢腳，經過連日來照顧，諾文狄逐漸習慣，較少哭鬧。"
From Google Translate: "Novemthree knows that he looks different from others. He is very defensive and does not like being touched. Every time the nurse sucks sputum or cleans the tracheostomy, Novemthree will get angry and kick his feet. After days of care, Novemthree Wen Di gradually got used to it and cried less."
- 范振和 (2004-03-10). "氣切順利 印童今動頭顱手術" . United Daily News (in Chinese). p. B2.
The article notes: "印尼五歲男童諾文狄昨天上午在慈濟醫學中心進行氣切手術，由於腫瘤過大，手術過程中，護理人員必須扶著頭部進行，手術頗為順利，今天將進行頭顱部位腫瘤切除。"
From Google Translate: "The five-year-old Indonesian boy Novemthree performed a tracheostomy at the Tzu Chi Medical Center yesterday morning. Because the tumor was too large, the nurse had to hold his head during the operation. The operation went smoothly. Today, the tumor on the head will be removed."
- 范振和 (2004-03-09). "印童求助慈濟 頭顱手術高難度 數十位各科醫護投入 院方強調有信心" . United Daily News (in Chinese). p. B2.
The article notes: "諾文狄的家人曾在二○○二年九月帶到新加坡人醫會接受義診，當時醫生提醒「明天再來！」諾文狄的家人卻誤以為「明天不用來了」，使得諾文狄錯失早就診的機會，一直到上月十五日，新加坡人醫會前往印尼巴淡島義診時，才成就了遠來花蓮醫治的因緣。"
From Google Translate: "Novemthree’s family was brought to the Singapore Medical Association for a free consultation in September 2002. At that time, the doctor reminded him that "come back tomorrow!" Di missed the opportunity to see the doctor early, and it was not until the 15th of last month when the Singaporean Medical Association went to Batam Island, Indonesia for a free clinic, and he achieved the cause and fate of his treatment in Hualien."
- French, Karl (2006-04-10). "Critics Choice Television Karl French". Financial Times. p. 14. ProQuest 249893990.
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Any thoughts on Cunard's sources?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Extraordinary Writ (talk) 23:18, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
- Weak keep Cunard has provided a large number of foreign-language sources. While I cannot speak for their reliability I am willing to assume good faith until someone familiar with the sources can provide a better assessment. Dronebogus (talk) 02:43, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
- Comment (nom). I'm not familiar with this newspaper and don't read Chinese, so I can't vouch for these clips myself. Either way, I don't think this is grounds for a keep unless a fluent Chinese+English editor agrees that they constitute a WP:GNG pass and is willing to rewrite the article from the ground up using these sources; if machine-translated articles are "worse than nothing", articles written by someone without dual fluency entirely based on machine translations don't have a very strong claim to being any better than nothing. But I don't see any reason not to write a short section using the facts from these into Gigantiform cementoma, even if it's done from machine translation; I doubt that the machine translation of even a middling suspect source is likely to be wrong about the base facts of the matter in this case. Really though, it doesn't look like there is actually a lot of fact here to make an article out of. "After days of care ... he cried less", for eg, is not going to be all that encyclopedic no matter how reliable the source is. So I think a redirect is still the best option. Thanks to Cunard finding Siahaan's name in Chinese, the bit in Gigantiform cementoma can at least be ref'd now. -- asilvering (talk) 03:36, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
- Are there any Chinese-speaking editors familiar with this that could be brought in from relevant projects? Dronebogus (talk) 11:51, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
- Keep: per Cunard - Ret.Prof (talk) 01:36, 13 December 2021 (UTC)