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Index Archive 1

ANI Discussion

April 2018

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To enforce an arbitration decision and for violating editing restrictions as reported here on the page Collaboration in German-occupied Poland, you have been blocked from editing for a period of 72 hours. You are welcome to edit once the block expires; however, please note that the repetition of similar behavior may result in a longer block or other sanctions. If you believe this block is unjustified, please read the guide to appealing blocks (specifically this section) before appealing. Place the following on your talk page: {{unblock|reason=Please copy my appeal to the ] or ]. Your reason here OR place the reason below this template. ~~~~}}. If you intend to appeal on the arbitration enforcement noticeboard I suggest you use the arbitration enforcement appeals template on your talk page so it can be copied over easily. You may also appeal directly to me (by email), before or instead of appealing on your talk page. NeilN 14:44, 26 April 2018 (UTC) Reminder to administrators: In May 2014, ArbCom adopted the following procedure instructing administrators regarding Arbitration Enforcement blocks: "No administrator may modify a sanction placed by another administrator without: (1) the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or (2) prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" ). Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped."

AE

Notice that you are now subject to an arbitration enforcement sanction

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The following sanction now applies to you: Your are topic-banned (WP:TBAN) from the World War II history of Poland. For the avoidance of doubt, this includes any acts of violence by, in or against Poland, or by or against Poles or Polish Jews, during or immediately prior to or after World War II, as well as persons known for their involvement in the World War II history of Poland. You are invited to appeal this sanction in six months showing evidence of substantial, competent, prejudice-free editing in other topic areas. You have been sanctioned for the reasons provided in response to this arbitration enforcement request. This sanction is imposed in my capacity as an uninvolved administrator under the authority of the Arbitration Committee's decision at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Eastern Europe#Final decision and, if applicable, the procedure described at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions. This sanction has been recorded in the log of sanctions. If the sanction includes a ban, please read the banning policy to ensure you understand what this means. If you do not comply with this sanction, you may be blocked for an extended period, by way of enforcement of this sanction—and you may also be made subject to further sanctions. You may appeal this sanction using the process described here. I recommend that you use the arbitration enforcement appeals template if you wish to submit an appeal to the arbitration enforcement noticeboard. You may also appeal directly to me (on my talk page), before or instead of appealing to the noticeboard. Even if you appeal this sanction, you remain bound by it until you are notified by an uninvolved administrator that the appeal has been successful. You are also free to contact me on my talk page if anything of the above is unclear to you. Sandstein 20:06, 25 June 2018 (UTC) Clarification 1 - (October 2020)

Potential ArbCom request

May 2019

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To enforce an arbitration decision and for violating your topic ban, you have been blocked from editing for a period of 1 week. You are welcome to edit once the block expires; however, please note that the repetition of similar behavior may result in a longer block or other sanctions. If you believe this block is unjustified, please read the guide to appealing blocks (specifically this section) before appealing. Place the following on your talk page: {{unblock|reason=Please copy my appeal to the ] or ]. Your reason here OR place the reason below this template. ~~~~}}. If you intend to appeal on the arbitration enforcement noticeboard I suggest you use the arbitration enforcement appeals template on your talk page so it can be copied over easily. You may also appeal directly to me (by email), before or instead of appealing on your talk page.  Sandstein 09:50, 18 May 2019 (UTC) Reminder to administrators: In May 2014, ArbCom adopted the following procedure instructing administrators regarding Arbitration Enforcement blocks: "No administrator may modify a sanction placed by another administrator without: (1) the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or (2) prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" ). Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped."

Arbitration proposed decision listed

twits

A kitten is for you!

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That was a kind word you had for Sir Joseph. I'm impressed. Thank you, GizzyCatBella. star ship.paint (talk) 13:50, 6 October 2019 (UTC) Thank you! That’s a gorgeous kitty GizzyCatBella🍁 15:11, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Avoiding TP

Arbitration enforcement warning

Arbitration enforcement appeal

Kashubian crochet

June 2020

A kitten for you!

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Hello GCB This kitty isn't quite as cute as the one on your userpage (and the bubble animation is excellent as well) but I had to drop it off to say thank you. It looks like things have been dealt with for the moment. Thanks for you vigilance. MarnetteD|Talk 23:26, 10 June 2020 (UTC) No problem! Thank you for the kitten. :) GizzyCatBella🍁 00:12, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Could use some help

Arb Enforcement

AE decision

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To enforce an arbitration decision and following the consensus at Arbitration Enforcement, you have been blocked from editing for a period of 72 hours. You are welcome to edit once the block expires; however, please note that the repetition of similar behavior may result in a longer block or other sanctions. If you believe this block is unjustified, please read the guide to appealing blocks (specifically this section) before appealing. Place the following on your talk page: {{unblock|reason=Please copy my appeal to the ] or ]. Your reason here OR place the reason below this template. ~~~~}}. If you intend to appeal on the arbitration enforcement noticeboard I suggest you use the arbitration enforcement appeals template on your talk page so it can be copied over easily. RexxS (talk) 23:21, 26 June 2020 (UTC) Reminder to administrators: In May 2014, ArbCom adopted the following procedure instructing administrators regarding Arbitration Enforcement blocks: "No administrator may modify a sanction placed by another administrator without: (1) the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or (2) prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" ). Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped." Again, GizzyCatBella, there's no other option but to do thorough review of all pertinent submissions so long as you continue to edit in the topic area of Poland that heavily. So, hopefully, a few days away will resonate the point of that. Hope to see you back editing at that time. Best wishes and kind regards, El_C 23:44, 26 June 2020 (UTC) I absolutely agree, I made a mistake and it's only my fault for missing the fact that there was a word "WW2" in the restored text. I'm taking full responsibility for it and accept the sanction. I'll try my best going forward, but most likely I will appeal the ban at one point sooner than later. I really think it doesn't serve any purpose anymore since I have learned from my mistake a while ago. Misplaced Pages is a strange world where alliances are formed and "enemies" produced. Sanctioned as such are being used as a weapon to silence opponents, this is really sad but I guess because of human nature, unavoidable.GizzyCatBella🍁 00:06, 27 June 2020 (UTC) It is sad, but it's the world we live in. Can I suggest that you read back on the two occasions when Sandstein wrote about your topic ban (the original placement and your request to lift it)? In each case he suggested you demonstrate six months of trouble-free editing and then appeal the ban. I fully agree with him on that, and I'm sure you'll have no problem doing so. --RexxS (talk) 00:32, 27 June 2020 (UTC) Yes, I'll. For the next 6 months, I'll try to avoid anything that has "Poland" in the text (just to be sure) and might focus on translating some articles into English in my sandbox on Polish Misplaced Pages. Those articles could be later transferred into English Misplaced Pages. Thank you guys for your time, and sorry for the breach of the topic ban.GizzyCatBella🍁 00:45, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Arb Enforcement again

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A discussion regarding your topic ban and some of your edits will appear on WP:AE. Notrium (talk) 03:04, 31 July 2020 (UTC) Notice that you are now subject to an arbitration enforcement sanction The following sanction now applies to you: interaction ban with François Robere and Notrium You have been sanctioned for the reasons provided in response to this arbitration enforcement request. This sanction is imposed in my capacity as an uninvolved administrator under the authority of the Arbitration Committee's decision at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Eastern Europe#Final decision and, if applicable, the procedure described at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions. This sanction has been recorded in the log of sanctions. If the sanction includes a ban, please read the banning policy to ensure you understand what this means. If you do not comply with this sanction, you may be blocked for an extended period, by way of enforcement of this sanction—and you may also be made subject to further sanctions. You may appeal this sanction using the process described here. I recommend that you use the arbitration enforcement appeals template if you wish to submit an appeal to the arbitration enforcement noticeboard. You may also appeal directly to me (on my talk page), before or instead of appealing to the noticeboard. Even if you appeal this sanction, you remain bound by it until you are notified by an uninvolved administrator that the appeal has been successful. You are also free to contact me on my talk page if anything of the above is unclear to you. Guerillero | Parlez Moi 22:32, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Records

While tedious WP:DENY is only for blocked socks (from Aug.23 for now) - ,,,, , ..........

Anticommunism

Copyright problem: Stanisław Michalkiewicz

CCI Notice

Background link for reference ---> - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:17, 2 September 2020 (UTC) another sock of his commenting about the similar issues (for reference only) - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:26, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Three revert rule - reported to WP:third opinion

SPA - familiar pattern

Hyphens

Sockpuppet

Hi, Per this edit, if you know who's behind the account, please start a sock puppet investigation. Nick-D (talk) 11:23, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Nick-D they follow me around for like 2-3 years now, hides behind proxes, I don’t want to waste my time on them. Notice that they added WW2 substance in Poland - thats the topic I can’t edit due to the stupid topic ban. Long story. Just ignore them. - GizzyCatBella🍁 11:28, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Please do report them so the account can be blocked. If there is some kind of long-running harassment, admins or the Wikimedia Foundation may be able to follow up - by range blocking IPs, etc. Nick-D (talk) 11:32, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

I might do that eventually but there are around 70 accounts to report and all of them behind the proxes so it’s hard to prove. I don’t have energy for that Nick. - GizzyCatBella🍁 11:36, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Nick-D I left the note on the admins. talk page but I feel sorry for those guys that they have to deal with all this crap. I'm trying not to overload them unless it is crucial. - GizzyCatBella🍁 11:42, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Please report it. Admins and checkusers can deal with this kind of stuff very quickly. Even playing whack a mole with sockpuppet accounts usually works. Nick-D (talk) 22:41, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Okay, I’ll try to find some energy for it Nick-D but I’m not promising .... GizzyCatBella🍁 22:47, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) @Nick-D: Since the odds are that this is related to this, as someone who spend countless hours compiling the evidence, only for more than half to be dismissed as "not enough", I am not sure if the system really works. From where I sit, one spends hours preparing evidence, only for a CU to say "hmmm, proxy, similar POV, similar interests, not conclusive". The moles have a very good shield in our apparent super-high evidence standards, at least those uphed by some CUs, for whom seemingly nothing but the sock admitign to their previous identity would work (as long as they got themselves a new proxy). Nonetheless, I'd encourage GCB to submit evidence to the CU, at the very least, we should be able to publicly confirm or deny whether those accounts use a proxy or not. If they use a proxy, it means it is probably that indef banned user (and if I was a betting person I'd also bet this is the case). If not, it could be someone else, the world is a big place after all. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:44, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

A kitten for you!

It has been too long, I think since you received some wiki-love. Thank you for your contributions, and don't let any vandals ruin your day! Where is the picture of your cat? Have a kitten, anyway :)

_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:31, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you Piotrus. My cat is gone unfortunately. - GizzyCatBella🍁 01:11, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

My condolences :( --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:59, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

October harvest

thank you --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:10, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you! - GizzyCatBella🍁 07:38, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

ArbCom 2020 Elections voter message

Hello! Voting in the 2020 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on Monday, 7 December 2020. All eligible users are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Misplaced Pages arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate in the 2020 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add {{NoACEMM}} to your user talk page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 02:47, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement

I am placing a report there.--Astral Leap (talk) 11:38, 29 November 2020 (UTC) Strike sock puppet

I closed the report with no action , with the same understanding that if problematic edits resume sanctions are going to be imposed.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:28, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement appeal accepted

I have closed your arbitration enforcement appeal as accepted , with the understanding that problematic editing from your side would result in more severe sanctions swiftly imposed. --Ymblanter (talk) 07:54, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Congrats. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:23, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

From me, too. Good on you, for finally turning the tide. El_C 02:37, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Thank you guys :) - GizzyCatBella🍁 03:21, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

MOS:ENGVAR

Please read MOS:ENGVAR for why your edit was reverted by someone else. This policy came about because people repeatedly and unthinkingly imposed their own English variant on this Misplaced Pages. And then edit warred about it. It seems amazing that readers of Misplaced Pages wouldn't catch on that there's a whole world out there. Consider both wikt:metalled and wikt:prepone. 'Metalled' is an English word from Victorian England, no longer used there, but retained in India. If you'll look at wikt:Citations:prepone you'll see that 'prepone' was a joke, but then it wasn't - it became a 'real' word used in India and then elsewhere. English has become global, and MOS:ENGVAR asks that you take a global viewpoint when editing here. Shenme (talk) 08:01, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

The Holocaust

Some of your edits changed the meaning. El C, please note. SarahSV 03:17, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Oh come on, that's just being petty. Sheesh. Gbear605 (talk) 03:33, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Look above: "for finally turning the tide", then comes straight to a long, sensitive, complex article, changes the meaning in several places, and changes a quote. And for what? What was the purpose of that edit? This is just nonsense. SarahSV 03:48, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

I've been following all of the arbitration issues and frankly I don't see the issue here. I agree that GCB probably should be more careful (changing a quote, really?), but pinging an admin to take note is silly. Wait until there's actually something meaningful. Gbear605 (talk) 03:56, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Hi again, Sarah. Yes, I see the errors. A superfluous "the" was added to a quote, I presume without checking the source material (i.e. viewed as a typo for some reason). And Displaced persons camps in post-World War II Europe was turned into a red link. The remaining changes appear to be constructive gnomish ones. So, you go on to correct these errors, but for reasons which escape me, before you get a chance to finish, Gbear605 reverts. Mild excitement ensues, but it all gets settled eventually (I think). How is that for a summary? But, as for GCB, she has only made that one edit. She has not challenged your correction to it. She may well be perfectly content with your changes and is otherwise thinking: oops. The point, though, is that there is no POV creep that I'm able to discern, which is what I would be looking for. Again, she stumbled, you caught it (and then there's Gbear605, somehow) — end of story, no? El_C 04:46, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I can see the errors now....changing the link into the red one and I thought it was a typo in the quote...sorry Sarah. I’ll be careful with that going forward. - GizzyCatBella🍁 06:31, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Those weren't the only problems with that edit. Note also in Friendly fire, you changed "Soldiers fighting on unfamiliar ground can become disoriented" to "Soldiers fighting on the unfamiliar ground can become disoriented". And "combat stress may add to the confusion, especially if fire is exchanged" to "especially if the fire is exchanged". SarahSV 06:51, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Sarah, some respect and consideration would be greatly appreciated. Perhaps I'm oversensitive, but a little bit of politeness and simple words such as "excuse me" or "thank you" would help... - GizzyCatBella🍁 08:44, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

When you make good and bad copy edits to a well-developed article, the next editor has to pick their through them, rather than reverting. That is time-consuming, so it would make sense for you not to make edits where you know you aren't strong, and that includes the definite and indefinite article.For example, at the Holocaust, you changed a source's quote, "whose role was to deal with 'all anti-German elements in hostile country behind the troops in combat'"; for some reason you thought "hostile country" needed "the". At "judgements ranging from acquittal to death by hanging", you added "an" before acquittal; did you mean there was only one acquittal? Then "West Germany initially tried few ex-Nazis, but after the 1958 Ulm Einsatzkommando trial, the government set up a dedicated agency." Adding "a" before "few" changes the meaning and makes "but" inappropriate. I also wonder why you arrived at that article, a day after coming off a topic ban. It seemed provocative. Now you've returned to Friendly fire, and having changed "fire is exchanged" to "the fire is exchanged", now you've changed "fire" to "shooting", so it says "if shooting is exchanged". But people don't "exchange shooting".I'll leave it there, but please bear these issues in mind. It isn't petty. The whole point of copy editing is to improve flow, grammar and vocabulary, so it isn't petty to point out when an edit doesn't achieve that or even achieves the opposite. SarahSV 21:38, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

WP:ONUS

WP:ONUS actually says, "While information must be verifiable to be included in an article, not all verifiable information needs to be included in an article. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article, and that it should be omitted or presented instead in a different article. The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content." So it's not an argument for restoring removed content. (t · c) buidhe 00:07, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Buidhe, I answered here - GizzyCatBella🍁 00:26, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Merry Christmas

	Merry Christmas and a Prosperous 2021!
	Hello GizzyCatBella, I send you warm wishes to you and your family throughout the holiday season. May your heart and home be filled with all of the joys the festive season brings. Here is a toast to a Merry Christmas and prosperous New Year!. scope_creep 11:42, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Natalis soli invicto!

		Natalis soli invicto!
		Wishing you and yours a Happy Holiday Season, from the horse and bishop person. May the year ahead be productive and distraction-free. Ealdgyth (talk) 14:49, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

ANI notice

There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Astral Leap (talk) 10:15, 29 January 2021 (UTC) strike sock

Twinkle setting

Hi, you have the Twinkle setting marked "Mark as minor edit for these types of reversions: Restore this version" turned on (has been on since Nov 2019 ), you can turn that off here. – Thjarkur (talk) 18:53, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Thjarkur - Thank you so much! Could you check when you get a chance if the function has correct settings now? - GizzyCatBella🍁 09:39, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Yup, your settings are correct – Thjarkur (talk) 09:41, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you! :) - GizzyCatBella🍁 09:42, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. I am talking about people born and active in Lithuania that were using Polish names and language in their day to day life. As I said many times before for me massive lithuanisation of their names is incorrect for historical and encyclopedic reasons. I will try to describe it more extensively later, it's very late now. Marcelus (talk) 23:47, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Question

Did you request the protection at Pilecki's Report? SarahSV 20:03, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes, can’t you see that? @SarahSV Actually no, not on this one, only on Pilecki - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:22, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

So who would have immediately after you requested protection of Pilecki's Report and two others? SarahSV 20:35, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

I have no idea. - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:42, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Re

Yes, I understand that could mean "I had no choice." But the question is: why? I, as a volunteer contributor, always have a choice to drop the subject, edit something else, stop editing at all, whatever. Besides, this is just an educational website. If someone blocks me ideff, that's fine, good for my real life and work. My very best wishes (talk) 16:46, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Why would you be blocked indef? I’m not seeing that happen, you are forced here to stay “unfortunately” :) - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:11, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

No one forces me to stay here or edit any specific pages, and there is a choice. I stay here only as an addict and did ask to block me for that reason: . Unfortunately, that resulted in certain problems, so I would not do it again. Happy editing! My very best wishes (talk) 17:22, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Language thing

You understood well, the word "forced" in Italian could be used also as "I had no choice" (I thought in English could be used the same way). "Fighting" can also be used to say "to deal with" about something hard to do, an harsh discussion for example. Unfortunately, I can't answer to you in the AE because I'm just under 500 words (I hope so!). If you want, you could report there my explanation. Thank you for understanding and for suggesting it.--Mhorg (talk) 17:31, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

So, why did not you have a choice? You just recently started editing this page, and you could easily start edit something else given that you felt uncomfortable during discussions here, here (this is a continuation of the same thread) and elsewhere, started an absolutely irrelevant discussion here, and to be honest, started this AE request, instead of following WP:DR as you initially wanted? If anything, your involvement on these talk pages looks like WP:BLUDGEON. My very best wishes (talk) 18:00, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

"I had no choice" because this is the first time in 6 years on Misplaced Pages that I had such surreal discussions with a user who questions ANY controversial issue of a politician supported by tons of RS. On the Italian Misplaced Pages I can assure you that I have never seen such a thing. Maybe the communities are different, there are probably different rules... or maybe there is something wrong in this case. And believe me, I always try to find a mediation with those who help build the encyclopedia. I think I never dared to remove large parts of controversal content from an article, and of course never with the accusation of "Undue weight", even though I felt politically close to a certain politician.
I tried to open the DR, when the only outstanding issue was the Georgian one. When you started questioning everything, I felt inside me that something was wrong. And don't think I'm happy with what happened, in fact, I ruined my days "fighting" in the discussions or tracking what you were doing on the article. I hope that the matter will be resolved and that we can return to collaborate in the future in a better way, as I already wrote to you some time ago. If instead they decide that I was wrong to evaluate, well, I apologize in advance.--Mhorg (talk) 18:51, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Well, I never said or acted to remove all "controversial issues". In fact, this whole page is one continuous controversy. The content was there all the time, and it is still there right now. For example, his "nationalism" is now described in the 2nd paragraph here, on the page. I did not remove it. It just uses more neutral wording than you suggested. Can we add more? Yes, perhaps we can if there will be a consensus on the talk page. So far I do not see it. Start an RfC if you wish to include your text with "rotten teeth" and "cockroaches" . My very best wishes (talk) 19:13, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

I read all your answers. I understand that you somehow want to avoid being held accountable for your mass deletions and the abuse you have done by accusing everything controversial of "Undue weight". I just hope that the administrators will check what I have reported, comparing it with your answers. I am also asking if I can exceed the 500 word limit so that I can answer to your statements there on AE request. You're distorting everything again, like you've been doing since I got to argue with you.--Mhorg (talk) 20:30, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

No, I did not claim everything controversial of "Undue weight", but only your text about "rotten teeth" and "cockroaches" (diff above). My very best wishes (talk) 22:33, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

I assure you that if you close your eyes that report will not disappear. Everything is written there. And there are also all the discussions where everything is "Undue weight" for you.--Mhorg (talk) 22:42, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Look, what you brought to AE is just a content dispute on a single page. Moreover, this is a disagreement between you and a few other users (not just me) on one small issue, i.e. the exact wording/text for describing views by Navalny on the old Georgia-related events. My position: I do not think this is due on the page, but it might be included if we frame it as his general views on foreign policy as described in the scholarly source . My very best wishes (talk) 23:47, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Recent tagging of sources

Can you say what you meant by this at the Holocaust? You wrote: "Please take a peek at this and adjust the text to meet WP:APLRS conditions. I tagged it for now."

There are three sources in the bundle you tagged, supporting footnote f: "The term shoah was used in a pamphlet in 1940, Sho'at Yehudei Polin ("Sho'ah of Polish Jews"), published by the United Aid Committee for the Jews in Poland." Sources.

Two of the sources support the point directly: Crowe 2008, p. 1—that's David M. Crowe, The Holocaust: Roots, History, and Aftermath—and Yad Vashem. A second Yad Vashem page is offered as a "see also" source about the definition of the Holocaust generally.

You tagged the whole thing as "Better source needed". Which of the three sources is the problem, and what did you mean about adjusting the text? SarahSV 18:54, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

I meant using Haaretz as a source (#10 this one --> ) of course not Yad Vashem - is Hareetz okay? - GizzyCatBella🍁 00:17, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

There it is used to support: "According to Haaretz, the writer Yehuda Erez may have been the first to describe events in Germany as the shoah. Davar and later Haaretz both used the term in September 1939."

1. Gilad, Elon (1 May 2019). "Shoah: How a Biblical Term Became the Hebrew Word for Holocaust". Haaretz. Archived from the original on 1 December 2019.

Given that part of the research would be the news organization looking through its own archives for the date, it seems fine. I've been meaning to look for the Yehuda Erez article but haven't got round to it. What do you think might be the problem with Haaretz for something like this? SarahSV 00:34, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

SarahSV - I don't think its anything wrong with the source personally; I just noticed that that particular source doesn't meet WP:APLRS conditions; hence I brought it to your attention. I'll let you guys decide since you have higher expertise here. - GizzyCatBella🍁 02:06, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

I'm wondering why it would need to meet WP:APLRS. It's in the terminology section. It isn't supporting a claim about Poland. Scholarly sources should be used for history articles in general, but a newspaper describing first use of a term, especially when that newspaper was one of the first users, seems okay. SarahSV 06:14, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/About the Civilization of Death (2nd nomination)

Nice, I almost forgot about this garbage. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:25, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

WP:APLRS clarification request

Hi - since you were involved in the discussion at Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#The_Volunteer_(book), I am letting you know that I have requested clarification from the Arbitration Committee about how we should interpret the wording of the remedy at WP:APLRS. If you wish to comment on the request, it is at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment#Clarification_request:_Antisemitism_in_Poland#Article_sourcing_expectations. Best GirthSummit _(blether) 15:49, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

regarding your comment at clarification

I think the sentence that begins with "Last thought" is a bit broken? Anyway, I totally agree with what you write. Hope Arbitrators read your thoughts! --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:56, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

O yeah, thanks Piotrus, I was writing in a hurry. - GizzyCatBella🍁 08:29, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Enough

Enough. This is too much. This must be the 5th time you do this. Stop popping up after me with false insinuations. I already said no. Here is a big capital NO NO NO again. If you repeat this, I will ask an admin to make it stop.--Bob not snob (talk) 19:05, 30 March 2021 (UTC) - Blocked by ARBCOM --->

I agree, it needs to stop. As does removing valid material. GCB, if you think a source isn't good enough, please look for a better one, rather than removing everything without checking. SarahSV 19:29, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

No, what needs to stop is this kind of insane battleground hounding where a user who upon coming to Misplaced Pages immediately started getting into fights, is now demanding that check users rifle through people’s emails because... not sure why. I’m at a loss Sarah why you would support this kind of behavior.

As for that edit above, it was a good edit - it removed an obviously non reliable source with REDFLAG information. Again, I’m at a loss as to why you would want to defend such an edit, especially in this topic area where we have the APLRS restriction which I believe you support. How does that work? You’re in favor of the APLRS restriction but complain when someone removes a source which doesn’t even meet RS, much less APLRS? You’re also assuming bad faith by assuming that GCB removed it “without checking”. How do you know? Please don’t cast aspersions without basis. Volunteer Marek 22:38, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Alert

This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. It does not imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date.

You have shown interest in the Arab–Israeli conflict. Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called discretionary sanctions is in effect. Any administrator may impose sanctions on editors who do not strictly follow Misplaced Pages's policies, or the page-specific restrictions, when making edits related to the topic.

For additional information, please see the guidance on discretionary sanctions and the Arbitration Committee's decision here. If you have any questions, or any doubts regarding what edits are appropriate, you are welcome to discuss them with me or any other editor.

--Shrike (talk) 05:50, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Shrike - You continue posting on my talk page identical alerts. Anything emerged I'm not aware of since your last post? . - GizzyCatBella🍁 06:47, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

GizzyCatBella, The alert is expired after one year as you have shown interest again in the topic I have alerted your again as per policy Shrike (talk) 07:17, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Shrike - Please show me where does it say that alerts expire and that editors should be warned again? - GizzyCatBella🍁 07:31, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

GizzyCatBella, Please see Template:Ds/alert, Special rules govern alerts. You must not give an editor an alert if they have already received one for the same area of conflict within the last twelve months. Shrike (talk) 07:35, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Shrike - Please be aware that I’m already familiar with the topic sanctions. - GizzyCatBella🍁 07:40, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Good to know.Still the alert is per policy if you don't want to receive alerts you may use following template Template:Ds/aware Shrike (talk) 07:45, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

A request

Please do not support me. If I find anything really problematic, I will make a post on an appropriate noticeboard. Happy editing, and I certainly appreciate your support. My very best wishes (talk) 17:20, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Speaking about the joe-job: . I understand, this is certainly not a fun for VM, but to be honest, I was laughing while reading it. Selecting someone who is so obviously not Ice and "proving" he is his sockpuppet with such ridiculous arguments that only sounds "legit"... This is basically a funny parody on SP investigations and VM. It reminds me KVN. User "All for Poland": Reported socks do not get to revert. Go. Away. Icewhiz. Whoever did it had a sense of humor and wanted to satirize VM. My very best wishes (talk) 20:31, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

My very best wishes - Do you know what astonishes me? The fact that these people are still so furious about what happened years ago. What did you fellows do to them, for Christ's sake? Did they get banned and now are after you as retaliation? - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:51, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, no I’ll give them some credit, it was kinda funny and. This. Part. Especially. At one point User:Drmies mentioned how much that annoyed him so I stopped for awhile but then couldn’t help myself because. Doing. This. Is. Funny. To. Me. (I’m always chuckling when I type that way). Of course the whole thing is still super creepy and skeezy but I do appreciate that they or he or she put some effort into it. Volunteer Marek 21:57, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

No, I am sure that no one is furious about what had happened many years ago or wants to retaliate for the old events. My very best wishes (talk) 21:55, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Okay, I'm not going to study that ancient story; I have no interest in this. My impression is that these sock puppets are entirely connected to past matters, that's all. - GizzyCatBella🍁 22:06, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Roll. Tide. Drmies (talk) 22:08, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Kick. Six. Volunteer Marek 23:29, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

You know how fair and good I am, VM, and what self control I have? I almost rolled that back. Someone should block you for that harassment. AuburnPilot, bringing up this trauma again isn't fair, is it? Tide rolls? Drmies (talk) 12:52, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

One has to learn to recognize anomaly and not let one's self be drawn into an incorrect perception of reality. Tiderolls 12:59, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Since these ENIGMA enciphered messages are posted on my talk page, could you tell me people what on earth you are talking about? Of course, I'm joking, never mind, probably another tale from 20 years ago. - GizzyCatBella🍁 13:08, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Sincere apologies for hijacking your page, GCB. I can see where the answer would be anticlimactic, but you can find some background here. Tiderolls 13:16, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

That’s okay :) no need to apologize, feel free to use my talk page. - GizzyCatBella🍁 13:18, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

At the risk of Drmies or Tide rolls blocking me, here you go. Still. So. Sweet. Volunteer Marek 16:31, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

I prefer GizzyCatBella better. As I mentioned the two folk songs you named aren't from that time period. Also some of the nobles maintained separate identity, some didn't. Also we aren't talking about their identity but about their names, and those two things aren't connected. Marcelus (talk) 23:22, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Bad, your version is better. As I said earlier those folk songs aren't historical, and claim that they maintained separate identity onto 20th century also is incorrect and ahistorical Marcelus (talk) 06:36, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Precious

history of Jews in Poland

Thank you for quality articles such as Alfonse Pogrom, for dealing with articles such as Smolensk air disaster and History of Jews in Poland, for updating biographies, for "I'll be careful with that going forward", for missing SlimVirgin, - you are an awesome Wikipedian!

You are recipient no. 2615 of Precious, a prize of QAI. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:38, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt - wow..thank you so much. You just made my day.. - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:44, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

I just love to do that, meow ;) - had a crazy discussion on my talk but nothing compared to yours --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:52, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

:) - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:53, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

I have a soft spot for users with cat in their name and spirit --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:48, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

A friendly notification

Hey GizzyCatBella, I have this article in my watchlist and I noticed your change. I appreciate your editing in general though I sometimes disagree with you. I'd suggest you don't add any wikilinks to this disputed Misplaced Pages article at the moment. It wouldn't give any additional credibility whatsoever to the article and I think it would only mislead the readers. It would be more constructive, if you engaged with the issues at the relevant talk page (I notified User:Buidhe of the matter a while ago). Misplaced Pages should be about verifiability, not narratives and hypotheses.Potugin (talk) 04:21, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

I’ll look at it later. - GizzyCatBella🍁 04:24, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

I looked at it and responded at related talk page - GizzyCatBella🍁 04:51, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for June 19

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ANI discussion

By obligation to notify users concerned in the ANI case, I hereby notify you that There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 17:20, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

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Notice of clarification request

You are involved in a recently-filed request for clarification or amendment from the Arbitration Committee. Please review the request at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment#Clarification request: Antisemitism in Poland and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the Misplaced Pages:Arbitration guide may be of use.

Thanks, — Wug·a·po·des​ 02:23, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

A motion has been proposed

A motion has been proposed in Clarification request: Antisemitism in Poland where you are listed as a party. You may view the motion here. For the Arbitration Committee, Dreamy Jazz 08:30, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

For you!

	Victoria Cross
	Thanks for welcoming me to the community! For your help...have this. Bob Ross Lives (talk) 23:09, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Courtesy note - ANI

Hi, just a quick note that I mentioned you in this thread on ANI. Many thanks ~TNT (she/her • talk) 22:05, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

PS. Thank you for your efforts at the related talk page, I appreciate your patience ~TNT (she/her • talk) 22:05, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Powerful Lithuania

Lack of reference isn't a problem. This is a clear example of puffery, "the once powerful and vast Lithuanian state" doesn't add anything substantial to the article. IMO the whole article is written in a very pro-Lithuanian manner just to prove that Vytis is absolute to the bone original Lithuanian Coat of Arms, and that any Belarusian claims to this heritage are baseless. I mean the whole part about Belarus is absolutely scandalous and it should be basically deleted. Another problem is that it's not possible to edit the article because all will be reverted by the main editors. edit: in general for an outside reader the article is basically incomprehensible Marcelus (talk) 22:00, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Can you propose the changes you think are required? Perhaps one concern at the time? You tend to leave messages on users’ talk pages. Please address your concerns (everything) on the article's talk page, not user's talk pages. It’s vital for record-keeping. - GizzyCatBella🍁 05:59, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Ok, I'll do that Marcelus (talk) 10:02, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Heads of State as belligerent leaders

Hi GCB, I'm really unsure about listing Israeli presidents as belligerent leaders. It is similar to listing Queen Elizabeth II as a belligerent leader for WWII, which we don't do. Ok, maybe not that quite odd, but still Zalman Shazar probably didn't even know about the Samu incident until afterwards. It would make more sense to list the Defence Minister or the Commander in Chief. Cheers. Zero 04:41, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Oh okay.. thanks - GizzyCatBella🍁 04:51, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Co-incidence?

very shortly after you removed a post by a long term puppeteer, a brand new account springs up to do exactly the same edit. WCM_email 16:27, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

@Wee Curry Monster - Thank you. It might be a coincidence in this particular topic. - GizzyCatBella🍁 16:50, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Battle of the Roman coast What two boats sank in an unequal battle It is not worth all this unbridled hypocrisy, but the Egyptian Navy, which sunk 20 ships and a torpedo boat. This was not mentioned in the results. It was mentioned only a claim that several ships belonging to the Egyptian Navy sank, and this is also a claim that is not strange to you.

Battle of the Roman coast What two boats sank in an unequal battle It is not worth all this unbridled hypocrisy, but the Egyptian Navy, which sunk 20 ships and a torpedo boat. This was not mentioned in the results. It was mentioned only a claim that several ships belonging to the Egyptian Navy sank, and this is also a claim that is not strange to you. Armies of the World (talk) 08:03, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

On the Jewish Question

Hi, the it was not the puppet account that added the content. It had been there for years and removed by the other edit warring party. And it wasn’t really explained why the content is invalid. Please take a second look. Cheers. OyMosby (talk) 11:36, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

@OyMosby - An editor in good standing (currently blocked for 24h) made an edit, that was reverted by a sock puppet .

PS - Feel free to edit the article (taking full responsibility for your edit) if you think the removed content is necessary. I have no judgment on the matter, I was solely enforcing the rules. - GizzyCatBella🍁 11:49, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Thing is I reverted that user because they failed to explain why they kept edit warring and removing content that has been there for a long time. Regardless of who was participating against them. If you could please revert your edit it would be much appreciated. Cheers. OyMosby (talk) 12:29, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

I once again restored the stable version before both the sock and other disruptive 3RR violator showed up. Please follow standard protocol next time which is to revert to the stable version of the article before the event. Otherwise please not that it will be YOU taking full responsibility for your edit when backing new changes to the article. But I am in-fact following the protocol. It is not my edit. Cheers. OyMosby (talk) 19:37, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Look @OyMosby - User StrexcorpEmployee is not a sock puppet. You can't revert his edit claiming "pre sock puppet version" because it appears that you are accusing him of sock-puppetry. Okay? Please feel free to include removed information back in the article but give a precise reason for reverting User StrexcorpEmployee. So what is the reason for you reverting him, please? - GizzyCatBella🍁 19:45, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

I did not call that person a sock puppet. I was referring to before the sock puppet got into a tussel with him. You stated who the sock was so context is there. There is no mistake. I reverted you when I made that summary. BOTH violating the 3RR. StrexcorpEmployee responding with “lol” as their edit explanation. I’m surprised to see no question. Please reread both my replies and edit summary as I have stated multiple times the reason for my revert to the stable version of the article that has existed for years. I do not feel like explaining again. You should be asking them to explain why they removed content with explaining how it was not relevant content. And why they were edit warring. This is pretty straightforward. I am surprised by the confusion. You may take it up with admins if this is controversial on my part but past experience tells me this is not an issue. I asked your kindly to revert yourself but you didn’t rely until I reverted manually. Given you say you have no judgment on the matter, my revert shouldn’t have been an issue to begin with. Just saw, StrexcorpEmployee is temp banned for the edit warring. OyMosby (talk) 19:59, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Okay enough already. I hope you got my message. Thanks - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:11, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

I mean you asked and raised concerns. I got your message and understood but disagree. I hope you got my message as well as you requested. Sorry for the long response but a person laughing about removing content about antisemitism rubs me the wrong way. Stay well. OyMosby (talk) 20:19, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. Happy editing - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:33, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Wola massacre

Hi, why did you erase my edit about the Wola massacre? Ezhelstan (talk) 06:45, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

Please see - Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism_in_Poland#Extended_confirmed_restriction - GizzyCatBella🍁 07:31, 11 November 2021 (UTC):

Then why can you not just put an extended confirmed restriction on every Polish Holocaust page? Would be much easier than some bureaucratic rules that nobody knows about Ezhelstan (talk) 19:39, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

@Ezhelstan I don’t have those rights. Please request your changes on talk page, I’ll try to address it. - GizzyCatBella🍁 19:45, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

Sure thing! Ezhelstan (talk) 19:54, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

Category talk:Jewish war crimes

Don't waste your time on Nazi trolls. That just makes them live longer. Drmies (talk) 01:17, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

@Drmies - Okay. - GizzyCatBella🍁 02:26, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

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General solution for the problem Polish-Lithuanian names

Can you help me write such a solution? I don't even know where I should publish it Marcelus (talk) 23:33, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

@Marcelus I have to think about what is the best place to request input. Can you describe the problem in your own words and post it here? It is principally about the Lithuanization of person names, correct? - GizzyCatBella🍁 23:41, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. I am talking about people born and active in Lithuania that were using Polish names and language in their day to day life. As I said many times before for me massive lithuanisation of their names is incorrect for historical and encyclopedic reasons. I will try to describe it more extensively later, it's very late now. Marcelus (talk) 23:47, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Okay - GizzyCatBella🍁 23:59, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Cukrakalnis

The issue is Polonization. Marcelus is spilling WP:POLAND into WP:LITHUANIA, something that is totally inadmissable, just like it would be with WP:HUNGARY spilling over into WP:CROATIA, for example. By spilling over I mean taking Lithuanian articles/articles about Lithuanians, and then shifting them into Polish under the pretenses of "historical accuracy", regardless of the fact that names were relatively easily changed. To illustrate this, I was looking through this book "Poles decorated with the Legion of Honour by Emperor Napoleon: 1803-1814, and the names were not Polish, even if the individuals concerned, most of them were Polish - not all, as I noticed distorted Lithuanian surnames. Concrete cases from the book of undoubted Poles having their name changed is that practically all have the French rendition of their name: "Jean", "Paul" and "Antoine", but actually they would have been "Jan", "Pawel" and "Antoni". In such a clear example of the writing's language affecting the names, it is only logical to say the same of Polish, and, alas, Lithuanian writings, whatever the time period. However, as the individuals concerned, like Boleslovas Kolyška and Antanas Mackevičius "voted" with their actions as to what their identity was, it is fair to say that the Lithuanian name be favoured in cases of articles of WP:LITHUANIA, just like Polish ones would be in WP:POLAND and French in WP:FRANCE.

My solution would be to follow Misplaced Pages policy. First use the Anglicized name where proper (e.g. Casimir Pulaski) and where this is impossible, then the WP:UE - Lithuanian names for Lithuanians (Lithuanian-born individuals who dedicate their whole life to Lithuania and "vote with their actions" as to who they are closer to). Think of Vytautas the Great, Gediminas and Antanas Smetona.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 00:26, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Marcelus~

There is an issue concentrating a proper name for the persons born and/or active in Lithuania, has a mixed Polish-Lithuanian identity. Such persons considered themselves both Polish and Lithuanian or even just Lithuanian, but their first language was Polish so their family and personal names were Polish-sounding. In such a way they are noted in the historical sources. I would like to emphasize that the problem does not directly concern the national or ethnic self-identification of these figures, but the correct spelling of their names, in accordance with historical truth.

The root of the problem is the custom in Lithuanian literature to write all names in the Lithuanised form. This applies not only to figures from Lithuanian history but to all figures in general. Therefore, contemporary Lithuanian historiography uses Lithuanianized names. A good example is the figure of General Romuald Giedroyć, a Polish and Lithuanian military man, who in Lithuanian historiography is called Romualdas Giedraitis, although according to all available sources he used a Polish-sounding name. Here ou can see the summary of sources.

The problem mainly concerns minor characters whose names do not appear in English literature. It would be useful to develop some basic rules for writing their names and naming articles. Obviously, if a figure appears in English-language literature the form dominant in that literature should be used.

My proposal is to use a notation in line with historical sources and to use Polish forenames if the first language of these people was Polish. If we are dealing with activists of the Lithuanian national revival or people who wrote in Lithuanian or in both languages, the Lithuanian form should be used. Examples of such figures are: Wincenty Szlagier/Vincentas Šliogeris or Szymon Staniewicz/Simonas Stanevičius.

My proposal concerns, of course, figures who lived in the period when such data can be collected, that is, primarily in the 18th and 19th centuries, but I think it can be successfully applied to earlier periods, up to at least the 16th century.

I realise that the issue may seem controversial, but I think that by approaching it together we will be able to develop a common consensus that best meets encyclopedic requirements. Marcelus (talk) 20:23, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

@Marcelus and Cukrakalnis - Thank you. I will think about it then I'll discuss at the proper boards with other editors. - GizzyCatBella🍁 21:58, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

@Cukrakalnis and @Marcelus - I'll attempt to get as many editors involved into the discussion as possible. I'm sweating on the correct explanation of the issue since I believe most editors might struggle to grasp it at first glance. I'll post it here first so you two can adjust it if needed, okay? Give me a few days as I'm reading a lot on the subject presently. - GizzyCatBella🍁 21:50, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

• Polish-Lithuanian identity
• Lithuanian National Revival
• ()
• ()
• () visual for Dummies"'
• () - languages

@Cukrakalnis and @Marcelus So sorry fellas, I’m still occupied with the matters concerning this . I’ll get back to you once I’m done. - GizzyCatBella🍁 12:47, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

No problem, there is no rush Marcelus (talk) 20:43, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Marcelus, there is no rush.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 11:43, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@GizzyCatBella how is it going? Are there any new developments? Marcelus (talk) 17:26, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

@Marcelus - I’ll do it in the next 3 days. - GizzyCatBella🍁 22:41, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Draft

Language in the former Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth

As a result of the Unions in 1385 and 1569, Poland and Lithuania became one country called Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. The Polish language was already a written language at the time. The Lithuanian language still had no writing system in 1385. Lithuanian writing appeared for the first time in 16th century, although it wasn't used in some documents in the 17th century but remained rather marginal. Books and documents were printed in Polish and Latin were two official languages of the Commonwealth. Between the 15th and 16th centuries, the Polish language was slowly adopted by the Lithuanian political and cultural segments of the society. The Polish language became the tongue of nobility, and it was the primary written/printed language well into the 19th century, therefore their names were written in Polish. The Lithuanian language began to be properly and widely codified in the second half of the 19th century. Nowadays, Polish historians are using Polish versions of the names of historical figures, as they were written throughout the centuries. However, contemporary Lithuanian historians use the Lithuanianized version of their names. An example is the figure of General Romualdas Giedraitis, a Polish and Lithuanian military man, who the Lithuanian historiography calls Romualdas Giedraitis, although according to available sources he used a Polish-sounding name Romuald Giedroyć. Other examples are Laurynas Gucevičius (Wawrzyniec Gucewicz), Mikalojus Tiškevičius (Mikołaj Tyszkiewicz) or Tomas Kušleika (Tomasz Egidiusz Kuszłejko). If a figure widely appears in English-language literature, there is no issue as we can use the version of the name dominant in that literature. But the problem emerges with the minor personalities whose names do not appear in English literature.

Questions:

• What language should we use in English Misplaced Pages to document the names of the people living in the former Commonwealth to reflect the fact that if they were of Lithuanian ancestry but used Polish versions of their names during their lives? who were more connected (how to define more connected?) to Lithuania than Poland, yet were significantly influenced by Polish culture?
• Is there any achievable solution to use both versions of their names together? The Polish version used during their lives, and the Lithuanian version to reflect their ancestry? The Polish version to emphasize the contemporary Polish influence and the Lithuanian version to reflect to which country they were more connected?(how to define more connected?)
• What language should we use in English Misplaced Pages to document the names of the people whose names do not appear in English literature?

Comments: @Marcelus and Cukrakalnis Please tell me if I captured it right and add suggestions if any below.GizzyCatBella🍁 10:09, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Marcelus suggestions --> @GizzyCatBella books and documents in Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth were printed in many languages, not only in Polish or Latin. If we are talking about documents many of them were prepared in Ruthenian or German. Also Lithuanian writing appeared for the first time in 16th century, although it wasn't used in documents and remained rather marginal, as you said. I don't think the question should be worded that way, our goal isn't to "reflect their Lithuanian ancestry", but simply to describe reality. And we don't choose between one language or another, "Adam Mickiewicz" isn't a Polish name, it's a Polish sounding name. Or "Emilia Plater" - Emilia is a Latin name, Plater is German; so it's not even Polish-sounding at the first glance. Marcelus (talk) 14:35, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

How should the question be worded? - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:42, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Would you like to add anything to the description? Please keep in mind that the explanation should be as compact as possible but define the issue sufficiently at the same time. - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:58, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

The new proporsal is much better. I don't know if Cukrakalnis will agree with me, but I think that our discussion always ended with him invoking the Misplaced Pages rule saying that "If there are too few reliable English-language sources to constitute an established usage, follow the conventions of the language appropriate to the subject (German for German politicians, Portuguese for Brazilian towns, and so on)", I was replying that here situation is special and that it would be ahistorical to use Lithuanised name for people who clearly weren't using them themselves. Also you can invoke other Misplaced Pages rule were the wording is different: "follow the conventions of the language in which this entity is most often talked about (German for German politicians, Turkish for Turkish rivers, Portuguese for Brazilian municipalities etc.)". We should also mention that it's only problematic if the naming isn't determined by ~the usage in English literature. Marcelus (talk) 15:06, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I still have to describe the uniqueness of the situation and add it to the illustration. I’m still thinking about what to say to be as brief as possible but to the point.. Do you have suggestions? - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:12, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

@Marcelus - also, what articles should we as as examples? I need 3. - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:18, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry for responding so late, I was busy. The draft looks good, so are the questions. As for more examples: Laurynas Gucevičius, Mikalojus Tiškevičius, Tomas Kušleika, Kiprijonas Maculevičius, Jurgis Pliateris, (a bit different examples: Thomas Zebrowski, Krzysztof Mikołaj "Perkūnas" Radziwiłł) Marcelus (talk) 19:34, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Cukrakalnis suggestions -->

GizzyCatBella🍁 and Marcelus, thank you both for your patience, I was away from Misplaced Pages for the past few days because of various reasons and only saw this today. I read GizzyCatBella's text and will first correct some inaccuracies. The Lithuanian language was actually used in documents, at the latest in the 17th century (many Lithuanian words exist in the Lithuanian documents from before, but we are looking at entire documents from start to finish in the language). Exhibit A: this document from A.D. 1639 by Władysław IV Vasa. As for whether Lithuanian writing was marginal, I cannot say whether it was marginal because I don't know your standards for marginal are - briefly, there is this 34-page text about variants of the Lithuanian language in pre-modern era writings. On pages 14-16 is a neat table including the titles of numerous Lithuanian language texts. There are more of them than the fingers on your feet and your hands COMBINED. I think that's solid, right? ;) The books were mostly religious, but also others like grammar and etc. Knowing the importance of religion back in those days (which remains in some places even now), I would qualify such writing as rather important.

That said, it is clear that the Lithuanian language was used nowhere as much as Latin or even Polish in writing. (Not a surprise considering the larger population of Poland then and now). Even so, there is a difference between marginal quasi non-existence on the fringes (which is an impression one would get from reading what you wrote) and an official existence, even if limited.

The as they were written throughout the centuries is a misportrayal, because how names were written down then was not like today, let's put it that way (you'll see what I mean when you finish reading this paragraph). For example, in Lithuanian-language documents from the Kościuszko Uprising, e.g. this manifesto that I transcribed , Szymon Wiszniewski  is written as Symons Wiſzniawſkis and Michał Kleofas Ogiński is Mykols Oginſkis. This was written during their lifetimes and they must have known about this. meaning all of this is not a posthumous Lithuanization that they were unaware about. In a Lithuanian-language setting (an indispensable part of existence in ethnographic Lithuania) people back then were called differently, just like how they would have been in a Polish-language context and etc. As written in the article Feliksas Kolyška, his surname was mentioned as such in a local folk song. The same goes for Jan Karol Chodkiewicz, who was named Katkus in this 17th-century song . Based on what I have encountered so far, using a precise version of a name in all languages was probably not that big of a deal in the past (before maybe the 20th century?). I can't say for certain when such a shift happened, but it probably did, to make sense of this issue with names. Basically, different languages used different renditions of the same name. A Lithuanian man named Jonas became Jan in Poland while a Polish man named Jan became Jean in France, and so on. The problem with surnames is that those also were not stringently enforced. To prove what I am saying one just needs to look at the first line of the article on Jan Henryk Dąbrowski.

My suggestion is to follow precedents instead of inventing something new. Clearly, Jan Henryk Dąbrowski was primarily focused on Poland, ergo the Polish-language name suits better. This sets a precedent for Romualdas Giedraitis, who was primarily focused on Lithuania, ergo the Lithuanian-language name suits better. (Basically what I said all along). This should better reflect the fact of different contexts being relevant as to which name was used. I think this solution is most fair and, dare I say, even historically accurate.

Using this yard-stick, if a person is e.g. Lithuanian ancestry but is born in Poland (e.g. Crown of the Kingdom of Poland or anywhere in the Second Polish Republic that is outside ethnographic Lithuania), lives in Poland, and his life does not indicate that he was very Lithuanian in outlook, it would be only fair to use the Polish-language name.

A possibility concerning both names is using the Lithuanian-language name when the person is in Lithuania and the Polish-language name when the person is in Poland (in the sense I mentioned above), but I have doubts about whether using different names for a single individual in their article is according to Misplaced Pages's guidelines. If this does not contradict the guidelines, I would be open to calling Romualdas Giedraitis as Romualdas when in Lithuania, and Romuald when in Poland.

Summary:

Person with Lithuanian ancestry, whose life was dedicated to Lithuania, more or less -> Lithuanian-language name (e.g. Antanas Smetona, Romualdas Giedraitis).

Person with Lithuanian ancestry, whose life was unambiguously dedicated to Poland and NOT Lithuania in any way during their life -> Polish-language name (e.g. Józef Piłsudski).

Person with Polish ancestry, whose life was dedicated to Lithuania -> Polish-language name (e.g. Maciej Stryjkowski).

Person with Polish ancestry, whose life was dedicated to Poland -> Polish-language name (e.g. Roman Dmowski).

I think it's just fair that way.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 14:26, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

@Cukrakalnis - let’s focus on the explanation issue and queries given to other editors for now. Would you modify anything else in the description and questions? - GizzyCatBella🍁 19:28, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

In the description - After the first sentence, I would write However, throughout the Commonwealth's existence, distinct and clear differences remained between the two; Then, I would change "Lithuanian writing appeared for the first time in 16th century, although it wasn't used in documents and remained rather marginal" -> Lithuanian writing first appeared in the 16th century and over time it was increasingly used in documents, although its written form was not as frequently used as those of Latin and Polish; Another suggestion to change would be "The Polish language became the tongue of nobility" -> Although the Polish language became the nobility's predominant language, the Lithuanian language was never forgotten by all segments of the nobility; after "...Lithuanianized version of their names", I would add the following sentence: Even so, the Lithuanian-language name is used for these historical figures in Lithuanian-language documents from the time.

I would make the first question into What language should we use in the English Misplaced Pages to name the people from the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, who were more connected to Lithuania than Poland, yet were significantly influenced by Polish culture? and the second into Is there any achievable solution to use both versions of their names together? The Polish version to emphasise the contemporary Polish influence and the Lithuanian version to reflect to which country they were more connected?

Such are my suggestions, I hope it is clearer and more on point than the immense block of text I wrote prior.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 20:26, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

@Cukrakalnis - Thanks, I’ll link this page too, so people will be able to read what you wrote. - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:38, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

@Cukrakalnis and @Marcelus see Discussion regarding questions below - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:49, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

@Cukrakalnis Lithuanian writing wasn't marginal in itself, it was marginal in comparison with other writings - Polish, Ruthenian, Latin, German in PLC. It wasn't marginal in comparison with Polish only because of demographic reasons, it was marginal because elites of the GDL adopted Polish as their language. The document of Władysław IV Vasa you linked wasn't originally prepared in the royal chancellery but were translated into the Lithuanian language in the Prussian chancellery and issued with observance of the official protocol, indicating the place of the seal – L. S. (locus sigilli), most likely much later. Oi Šermukšnio isn't a 17th century song, it's much, much younger (20th if not 21th century :)) We aren't inventing anything new, we are trying to develop a rule covering many similar cases Marcelus (talk) 20:54, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

This part of Cukrakalnis suggestion: Lithuanian writing first appeared in the 16th century and over time it was increasingly used in documents is especially incorrect, because Lithuanian wasn't used in PLC documents at all before 1791 when it appeared in the Constitution translation and in the several documents from the Kościuszko uprising. Marcelus (talk) 20:57, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

That document was still issued in the Commonwealth's domain (Ducal Prussia was a vassal of Poland-Lithuania at the time). Your objections do not negate the veracity of my statement, as indeed, the official use of the Lithuanian language within where the PLC's power was present, increased over time, even if not in a geometric progression.

Oi Šermukšnio is very surely a 17th-century song about the Battle of Kircholm in 1605. ( and precise quote: Pavyzdžiui, albumo kūrinys „Oi šermukšnio“, pasakojantis apie 1605 m. Salaspilio mūšio įvykius, turėjo tik žodžius, jam pritaikyta tradicinė lietuviška-latviška melodija. Translation, "For example, the album's song Oi šermukšnio, sung about the events of the Battle of Kircholm in 1605, only had words, while the melody given to it was a traditional Lithuanian-Latvian one"). I can find more to back this up.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 21:27, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Discussion regarding questions

How to define more connected? GizzyCatBella🍁 20:45, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

This is what we have so far:

• What language should we use in English Misplaced Pages to document the names of the people living in the former Commonwealth to reflect the fact that if they were of Lithuanian ancestry but used Polish versions of their names during their lives? who were more connected to Lithuania than Poland, yet were significantly influenced by Polish culture?~

  How do you define "more connected with Lithuania than Poland" - there was no ethnolinguistic Lithuanian separatism or nationalism before mid 19th century, and I am literally quoting Lithuanian historian Darius Staliūnas on that. And persons that started ethnolinguistic national Lithuanian movements are already named in Lithuanian form see: Edvardas Jokūbas Daukša as an example. Romuald Giedroyć wasn't connected with Lithuania more than with Poland, it's absolutely artificial category. I insist on using "but used Polish versions of their names during their lives?". Marcelus (talk) 21:08, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

"absolutely artificial category" It is absolutely NOT an artificial category, because these categories were used at the time. Otherwise, there would be no talk of Lithuanian regiments in the Grande Armee, the Royal Prussian Army or even the Army of the Congress Poland during the Uprising of 1830-1831.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 21:12, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

• Is there any achievable solution to use both versions of their names together? The Polish version used during their lives, and the Lithuanian version to reflect their ancestry? The Polish version to emphasize the contemporary Polish influence and the Lithuanian version to reflect to which country they were more connected?

• This shouldn't be even a question - there is no reason to use two versions of name in the same article. That's nonsensical Marcelus (talk) 21:08, 20 December 2021 (UTC) And I repeat once again "country they were more connected" is absolutely artificial category Marcelus (talk) 21:08, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

@Marcelus and @Cukrakalnis Should we drop the second question? - GizzyCatBella🍁 21:15, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

There are many factors that could influence the level of connection. Clear indications: ancestry, birthplace, and actions that demonstrate how committed they were to Lithuania in contrast to Poland. The last one is vague, I'll admit, but still understandable, I think. Examples (not limited to these only, of course) of questions for the last one would be: To which army did they belong? The Grand Ducal Lithuanian Army or the Royal Polish Army? Did they fight more on the land of Lithuania or of Poland? Is the content of their writing more evocative of Lithuania or Poland? Do they try to further clearly Lithuanian interests (by e.g. contributing to publication of Lithuanian-language books)? A significant factor, where applicable, would be their view/actions related to the Lithuanian National Revival. This a bit all over the place, but I think it nonetheless gives a needed clearer definition.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 21:09, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

@Marcelus This whole thing is going to be a long process. Please be patient folks. - GizzyCatBella🍁 21:13, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

@Cukrakalnis and @Marcelus How about we just ask one question as follows:

What language (Polish, Lithuanian or both if possible) should we use in English Misplaced Pages to document the names of the people living in the former Commonwealth? GizzyCatBella🍁 21:22, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Cukrakalnis Lithuanian and Crown army were part of the same armed force under one command, they weren't fighting each other, but were fighting together in the same wars with the same goals. So it doesn't matter if they were fighting more in Lithuania than in Poland or other way around. Sierakowski was called Sierakowski in Volhynia, Lithuania and Mazovia - the same guy all the time. It's really getting ridiculous. Are you planning to measure how long they spend here and there? "Clearly Lithuanian interests"? What's that? It was one country. Of course the GizzyCatBella second question should be dropped. And guys we are forgetting about one important thing. And we should include it into the draft - "Lithuanian" doesn't mean the same today as at that time; many people who were calling themselves that way had nothing to do with ethnolingustic Lithuanian group. Grand Duchy of Lithuania wasn't an ethnolinguistic Lithuanian state, so the fact that someone served in its army doesn't mean he should be called today in a Lithuanian manner. IMO we should use form that prevails in the historical sources and use Polish names if Polish-sounding name is the most common in them, we should include that in the question Marcelus (talk) 21:27, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

@Marcelus Okay, so lets sketch one question only below. What are you proposing @Marcelus? - GizzyCatBella🍁 21:34, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

The question of What language (Polish, Lithuanian or both if possible) should we use in English Misplaced Pages to document the names of the people living in the former Commonwealth? misses the mark because the issue arose concerning specifically the Lithuanian part of the Commonwealth.

Lithuanian and Crown armies had separate chains of command. They had clear differences, in organisation, uniform, and everything that makes an army be considered separate. It does matter that where they were fighting, because geography matters. Why would Sierakowski, born in Volhynia, go to Lithuania, if he did not have a special connection precisely with IT and not Poland. It was not "one country", just like Germany and France are not "one country" because they are both in the European Union and NATO. The statement of "Lithuanian" doesn't mean the same today as at that time is verifiably false. The people who spoke the Lithuanian language but lived outside the Grand Duchy of Lithuania for centuries were still called and viewed Lithuanian - I am talking about the Prussian Lithuanians. If ethnolinguistics was totally divorced from the Lithuanian identity of the GDL, such a thing would not be. However, it is fact, ergo ethnolinguistics was always to some degree connected to the Lithuanian identity, no matter the intensity, which necessarily varied from time to time.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 21:38, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

No, they didn't had separate chains of command. Sierakowski wanted to transfer uprising to Courland and Russia. He was citizens of the Commonwealth - that's the thing you aren't able to comprehend trying to artificially separate Lithuania from Poland. "If ethnolinguistics was totally divorced from the Lithuanian identity of the GDL" I didn't say it was totally divorced, I said it wasn't the same. Just because someone lived in GDL and considered himself a Lithuanian, doesn't mean he had anything in common with Lithuania language, he could have, but didn't have to. That's why your attempt to Lithuanise every citizen of the GDL is artificial and ahistorical. Marcelus (talk) 21:48, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

They did have separate chains of command, which is why the hetmans and the generals were separate. When the Commonwealth existed, there were Lithuanian generals that commanded the Lithuanian army, and Polish generals that commanded the Polish army. As for the Uprisings of 1830-31 and 1863-64, then the Lithuanian rebels were kind of "under the wing" of the Polish ones. Even so, Lithuania was never considered exactly the same as a region of Poland like Mazovia. For Sierakowski, it would be very relevant to read his writings and see his own view. Being a citizen of the Commonwealth did not negate the distinctness of its component parts, which sometimes verged on separatism. A person can be a citizen of Canada and still want an independent Quebec or be a Belgian and want an independent Flanders. Except in the case of Lithuania, it had a separate army and practically everything a sovereign country has. "I didn't say it was totally divorced, I said it wasn't the same." You said "no ethnolinguistic Lithuanian separatism or nationalism", which gives the wrong impression as if the Lithuanian identity was only based on the state and nothing more. I agree that "Just because someone lived in GDL and considered himself a Lithuanian, doesn't mean he had anything in common with Lithuania language, he could have, but didn't have to.", but the people discussed here were from Lithuania proper. You portraying me as making all citizens of GDL into ethnic Lithuanians is not at all reflective of what I have been saying and doing. The focus is on Lithuanians from Lithuania proper.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 22:48, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

What language should we use in English Misplaced Pages to document the names of the people whose names do not appear in English literature, and who were living in the former Commonwealth and were culturally Polish? Marcelus (talk) 21:41, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

"Culturally Polish" is an inaccurate description for someone whose whole life, including their culture, revolves around Lithuania. There is a difference between "influenced by English culture" and being "culturally English". So too, there is a difference between "influenced by Polish culture" and being "culturally Polish". A more precise question is What language should we use in English Misplaced Pages to name those unmentioned in English literature, that were from the Lithuanian part of the former Commonwealth yet were influenced by Polish culture?--Cukrakalnis (talk) 21:52, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

The question shouldn't be limited to the Lithuanian part of the PLC. Another proposal: What language should we use in English Misplaced Pages to name people unmentioned in English literature, that were living in the former Commonwealth and were culturally Polish or were influenced by Polish culture?Marcelus (talk) 21:59, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

How about just simply this?

What language should we use in English Misplaced Pages to document the names of the people whose names do not appear in English literature?

Everything else could be argued during discussions. - GizzyCatBella🍁 22:36, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

@Cukrakalnis and @Marcelus. Just to make it simple. There will be a lot to discuss following the question and we all can bring our arguments to the table. Okay, let me go with a simple question as written above. - GizzyCatBella🍁 22:40, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

@Cukrakalnis and @Marcelus Okay, let below sit for a few days in case new ideas come to light. During discussions we will bring all points again and see what happens. This is not going to be easy, that’s for sure. - GizzyCatBella🍁 22:48, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

To be posted

Language in the former Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth

As a result of the Unions in 1385 and 1569, Poland and Lithuania became one country called Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. The Polish language was already a written language at the time. The Lithuanian language still had no writing system in 1385. Lithuanian writing appeared for the first time in 16th century, although it was used in some documents in the 17th century but remained rather marginal. Polish and Latin were two official languages of the Commonwealth. Between the 15th and 16th centuries, the Polish language was slowly adopted by the Lithuanian political and cultural segments of the society. The Polish language became the tongue of nobility, and it was the primary written/printed language well into the 19th century, therefore their names were written in Polish. The Lithuanian language began to be properly and widely codified in the second half of the 19th century. Nowadays, Polish historians are using Polish versions of the names of historical figures. However, contemporary Lithuanian historians use the Lithuanianized version of their names. An example is the figure of General Romualdas Giedraitis, a Polish and Lithuanian military man, who the Lithuanian historiography calls Romualdas Giedraitis, although according to available sources he used a Polish-sounding name Romuald Giedroyć. Other examples are Laurynas Gucevičius (Wawrzyniec Gucewicz), Mikalojus Tiškevičius (Mikołaj Tyszkiewicz) or Tomas Kušleika (Tomasz Egidiusz Kuszłejko). If a figure widely appears in English-language literature, there is no issue as we can use the version of the name dominant in that literature. But the problem emerges with the minor personalities whose names do not appear in English literature.

Question:

• What language should we use in English Misplaced Pages to document the names of the people whose names do not appear in English literature? GizzyCatBella🍁 22:46, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

This is how I would draft it:

Following the Unions in 1385 and 1569, Poland and Lithuania were unified into the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth. The Commonwealth's official languages were the Polish and Latin languages. While Polish was already a written language in 1385, writings in the Lithuanian language appeared for the first time only later, in the 16th century, and its role in official matters was way lesser. Large parts of the Lithuanian political and cultural elite, although maintaining their separate identity into the 20th century, slowly adopted the Polish language and culture (Polonization) during the 16th and 17th centuries and this was their primary written/printed language well into the 19th century. So, their names were written in Polish. However, in Lithuanian-language documents and folk songs from the time, their names are in the Lithuanian-language version. Moreover, the proper and wide codification of the Lithuanian language began in the 19th century's 2nd half. Nowadays, Polish historians use Polish versions to name the historical figures and Lithuanian historians use the Lithuanian versions of their names. An example is General Romualdas Giedraitis, who the Lithuanian historiography calls Romualdas Giedraitis, although according to available sources he used a Polish-sounding name Romuald Giedroyć. Other examples are Laurynas Gucevičius (Wawrzyniec Gucewicz), Mikalojus Tiškevičius (Mikołaj Tyszkiewicz) or Tomas Kušleika (Tomasz Egidiusz Kuszłejko). If a figure widely appears in English-language literature, there is no issue as the name dominant in that literature can be used, but disputes arise with little-known personalities whose names do not appear in English literature.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 23:09, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

@Marcelus - how the above Cukrakalnis’s texts looks for you? GizzyCatBella🍁 00:07, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

I posted my reply twice on mobile, but it didn't show, and I wasn't aware of that. So sorry for replying so late. In general I like your proposition better. Cukrakalnis version is wrong for following reasons: folks songs he mentions aren't historical, the song about Kaktus is not from 17th century for example, the part about "maintaining their separate identity into the 20th century" is too general, it's much complex than that. Also we aren't talking here about the identity of this figures, but about proper spellings of their names. Someone can have Lithuanian identity and Polish spelling of his name, there is no conflict there. To sum up your version is ok. Again, sorry for responding so late. Marcelus (talk) 08:27, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

One of Marcelus' objections is factually incorrect. The song about Katkus IS from the 17th century. Numerous historians affirm that the phrase from the song: Mūsų Katkus labai drūts,/ Tikras buvu karaliuks is about J.K.Chodkevičius (Katkus). Sources: p.106, Žymiausi Lietuvos mūšiai ir karinės operacijos, ISBN 9789986827054; p34, Didysis Chotyno Karvedys - Jonas Karolis Chodkevičius, Doc. dr. Genutė Kirkienė (Neužmirštas didysis karvedys ir liaudies kūryboje: J. K. Chodkevičius buvo apdainuojamas senosiose istorinėse-karinėse dainose „O tas Katkus, tas Katkavič, su žuvedu labai mušas“ arba: „Mūsų Katkus labai drūts, tikras buvo karaliuks“.); , Historian Tomas Baranauskas (Lietuvos didysis etmonas Jonas Karolis Chodkevičius, Salaspilio mūšio (1605 m.) nugalėtojas, kaip „mūsų Katkus“ apdainuotas lietuvių liaudies dainose). In addition, Ce nom de famille est connu dans la littérature polonaise sous le nom denaturé Chodkiewicz. Mais son propre nom lithuanien est Katkus plutôt que Chodkevičius. Le recueil de chansons populaires lithuaniennes publié par le folkloriste renommé A. Juška, contient une chanson (t. III, p.127) qui mentionne un des Chodkevičius comme Katkus: p117, .

The mention of "maintaining their separate identity into the 20th century" is necessary because otherwise, the false impression is that there was one indistinguishable mass with no distinction between each other.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 12:44, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

I am not saying that the song isn't about Chodkiewicz, I am saying that it isn't from 17th century, it was first written down by Juškevičius in late 19th century. It doesn't even matter because "Chodkiewicz" isn't Lithuanian, but a Polish-Ruthenian name. As for the second point I cannot agree with you, the sentence "Between the 15th and 16th centuries, the Polish language was slowly adopted by the Lithuanian political and cultural segments of the society" doesn't give such impression as you imply Marcelus (talk) 13:16, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Folk songs don't just appear out of nowhere and they have far deeper roots than the first time they were written down. The most reasonable explanation for that song which mentions fighting against the Swedes under the leadership of a certain Katkus (J.K.Chodkiewicz), is that it is from the 17th century. Moreover, the origins and ancestry of Chodko Jurewicz, the original Chodkiewicz, are uncertain, so stating that it is undoubtedly "a Polish-Ruthenian name" is imprecise. At the very least, the description by GizzyCatBella did not emphasise important aspects of the issue. Following the sentence of "the Polish language was slowly adopted by the Lithuanian political and cultural segments of the society", nothing indicates that after this adoption, there was a continuous self-identification separate from the Poles.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 17:28, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

"nothing indicates that after this adoption, there was a continuous self-identification separate from the Poles" and nothing suggests it was otherwise, that's why it's a good wording. "Folk songs don't just appear out of nowhere and they have far deeper roots than the first time they were written down", maybe they have, maybe they don't. All we know is that the song was recorded in late 19th century. It's equally possible it was created roughly at that time. Marcelus (talk) 17:32, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

"nothing suggests it was otherwise" factually incorrect - there was a distinction, right until the 20th century, between the Lithuanians and the koroniarze. Such a distinction was obviously made by Tadeusz Kościuszko, Adam Mickiewicz, and Józef Piłsudski. Marcelus keeps propagating factually incorrect statements. It is nonsense to claim that songs about 17th-century individuals and battles would be invented two centuries later (which said "our" general, clearly indicating a closeness that only soldiers could feel towards their commanders, and not the populace at large) when that is the last thing on people's minds. Moreover, songs about fighting against the Swedish, which were not a threat for a long time by the 19th century. The Muscovites and other things were the problems then. Practically speaking, it seems as though Marcelus has an axe to grind against the mere existence of Lithuanian-language names in the historical context.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 18:22, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

It all doesn't matter, that's your own assumptions -> WP:OR. The song was recorded in the late 19th century, and that's all we know. You have basic deficiencies in the critical apparatus Marcelus (talk) 19:02, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

It all does matter and the mere existence of a response shows that. This whole never-ending talking began with Marcelus' WP:OR of "they actually used this other name" and his recent actions are devolving into just going against most of my recent edits on Misplaced Pages (e.g. removing Lithuanian language names from 1st Lithuanian Dragoon Regiment when talking about locations in Lithuania Minor concerning a Lithuanian unit in the Royal Prussian Army, disregarding the importance of Lithuanian culture in those areas and going through my most recent articles/edits - something I would qualify as stalking). The song was written down in the late 19th century, but the refusal to admit that it has deeper roots possibly points to Marcelus possibly harbouring prejudices against the Lithuanian language or maybe Lithuanians at large. Instead of answering objections, Marcelus goes to kindergarten insult level of "You have basic deficiencies in the critical apparatus". One consistent pattern that seems to emerge after all this talk with Marcelus is that he will practically never admit that he was wrong or incorrect, even if he is clearly so.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 21:06, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I am going through your edits persistently because I don't trust you as an editor. I don't disregard anything, I just changed the name of German Prussian towns to their original, historical form. It's WP:OR to use Lithuanian names on English Misplaced Pages in this context. "refusal to admit that it has deeper roots" - of course I refuse, because you didn't cite any source that would prove such roots existed, that's all. Marcelus (talk) 21:30, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Warsaw Concentration Camp Arb Case Request

Hi GizzyCatBella, I'm Cameron11598 and I am one of the Arbitration Committee Clerks I've noticed your recent contributions at the Warsaw Concentration Camp Arb Case Request. As a reminder case requests are for statements not for involved parties and other parties to conduct discussions, as such please refrain from attempting to start a discussion within the case request. Let me know if you have any questions. Thanks! --Cameron₁₁₅₉₈ 22:33, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Icewhiz

Icewhiz emailed me after I filed my request. Due to space constraints I am not wasting words to talk much about him. I told Icewhiz to stop being involved with Misplaced Pages, its editors, and their associates. Hopefully he will listen. I don't give any credence to anything he says. Jehochman 22:35, 22 December 2021 (UTC)