Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 17:31, 28 February 2005

Nonce word?

This is a nonce word coined for Misplaced Pages no? Debased coinage. An amusing conceit though. What's the real Latinate word for a hundred-and-ten-year-oldian? User:Wetman

No,this word has been around for years,and the sense of over-110-year-old dates back over a decade at least.(It occurs in both hyphenated and unhyphenated forms,I included the less common hyphen just to defeat the fromer redirect to the "centenarian" article.I have maintained a collated list of documented supercentenarians for close to five years now,mirrored by the Gerontology Research Group(grg.org),Recordholders.org,and others. I'm not clear of a bona fide Latin term for anyone short of 125 (quasquicentenarian) which has never verifiably been reached.

It would really be helpful if there were, or could be created, terms for people in their 11th and 12th decades. --Daniel C. Boyer 17:07, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Anyway,I think we need to agree criteria for listing here.We can't list all 640-plus documented supercentenarians...the listed ones have to be particularly noted among supercentenarians,just as the people in the centenarians article need to be particularly noted among centenarians.(I think Latour is too young,and would like to know more of her documentation). Exaggerated/undocumented claims,like Elizabeth Israel(from Dominica,claims birth Jan 1875),Maria do Carmo Geronimo of Brazil(1871??-2000),Omer Abbas of Malaysia,Rahim Khan/Habib Miyan of India(both men claiming over 130),the old Soviet claims like Shirali Mislimov(1805??-1973),newer ones there like that Chechen woman I deleted,the Vilcabambans and the Hunzukuts...they don't belong on a list with documented people. I've worked with scholars all over the world trying to establish validations.

People can write to me at le@put.com to get copies of my whole list,join my supercentenarians email list,and discuss cases.--Louis Epstein,known here as "12.144.5.2"

I just saw on the news that Elana Slough the oldest living American, has died at the age of 114. She lived through 21 presidents and 7 U.S. wars. The title now passes to 114 year old Charlotte Benkner of Ohio. Longevitymonger

Elena Slough(I contributed an article on her) was 114,but Charlotte Benkner turns 114 next month.--L.E./12.144.5.2

Stealing a table

I'm tempted to copy the "CHRONOLOGICAL OLDEST LIVING LISTED PERSONS (Since 1959)" table on this page: http://www.recordholders.org/en/list/oldest.html

Read Feist v. Rural -- I contened that the table, a compilation of fact, is not itself subject to copyright laws. Anyone disagree?
----Raul654 10:54, 13 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I am Louis Epstein,the compiler of that list.As it stands I'd rather see it linked to than copied...as Ralf Laue,the webmaster of that site,regularly posts updates I send to my list of correspondents interested in the frontiers of human longevity,it would be easier to let those updates happen than import each new version.

L.E./12.144.5.2/le@put.com

• Point taken. At the end of the partial listing here, I put in a link to that page. --Raul654 00:19, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Please...no "Habib Miyan" (some of the stories about the same man gave his name as "Rahim Khan"),no Elizabeth Israel,no Omer Abbas,in this article.There are plenty of unproven claims to be older than Mitoyo Kawate,but without proof,the "Longevity myths" article is where they belong. No point in our picking and choosing between people who get a credulous reporter to file a story.And it makes the timelines worthless if we do!--Louis Epstein/12.144.5.2/le@put.com

Age groups

Do you know of any special names for people of various age groups?? Here is a table of names, the last few of which I have coined:

The oldest age group one has ever lived to be up to this moment is a mega centenarian. At whatever article of Misplaced Pages is appropriate, you may put a list of things that doing can help a person live long (e.g. don't get nicotine or anything that can cause you to be a smoker.)

I have to say that the coined names look silly,and without any accepted meaning of the elements included.I have seen uncentenarian for 110-119,duocentenarian for 120-129,trecentenarian for 130-139...etc. proposed,which at least refers to the number of decades;I do like quasquicentenarian for 125,sesquicentenarian for 150,and bicentenarian for 200.But as a practical matter we don't need these gradations for the moment.--L.E./12.144.5.2/le@put.com

• Contrary to your comment, the names in the above table really aren't as silly as they seem. With the exception of the last 3, these names (excluding "centenarian" came from the game called Atomica at http://www.popcap.com; it uses these for combos, and this is the only place I've ever seen distinct prefixes used as substitutions for repeated "super". For the last 3, the reason is simply so that the list can stop at an easy-to-remember 200 rather than a harder-to-remember 170. I was out of real prefixes, and so I chose to use simply prefixes formed by following M in the alphabet. Another thing is that it can be unclear to decide whether "trecentenarian" can mean 130 or 300, so it really isn't a good name for 130. Still another thing is that it is probably a good thing that the coined names in the above table don't include "tera centenarian" for a reason mentioned at Talk:Terabyte. 66.32.153.114 01:01, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

(Can not interpolate lines with Lynx so continuing this will be difficult)
"trecentenarian" (130s) is not the same as "tricentenarian"(300s).The use of "mega" and "giga" when they are prefixes denoting 10^6 and 10^9,and casual use of "ultra" and "hyper" (in broadcasting ultra high frequencies are below super high frequencies),are unscientific.As is the max-nax-oax-pax.175 would make one a "terquasquicentenarian",if you want another real-Latin derivation.But given the death rates in these age brackets we are a long way from needing any new terms!--L.E./12.144.5.2/le@put.com

What about those of us who plan to live forever? What do we call ourselves? →Raul654 00:52, Mar 18, 2004 (UTC)

What do you think, Raul654?? User 66.32.134.170

Optomists :) →Raul654 01:04, Mar 18, 2004 (UTC)

I have no plans to die,Raul,but we need to earn our age group references before we get them.--L.E.

Deaths affecting lists

The recent deaths of the oldest living persons are a bit depressing.We now have no living person proven to be over 114 for the first time since the 1980s! I hope the longterm trend to lengthening lifespan reasserts itself but I don't know who will carry the flag up the list again.--L.E./12.144.5.2/le@put.com

I volunteer :) →Raul654 04:00, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

I think you're a way from qualifying for the list,as am I.:)Would like to see the records rise before too long!--L.E.

Compare...

Compare the above table with the list of numbers at Names of large numbers. The latter goes extremely high, to a point there is not at all likely a reason for it to go. In contrast, the above table in this discussion page stops at age 200 because I estimate the oldest age it is possible for a woman to live to be (do not confuse with the oldest age a woman has ever lived to be) to be between 150 and 200 years. Anyone who disagrees with this (i.e. thinks it is possible for a woman to be alive over 200)?? Any other interesting tables ANYWHERE on Misplaced Pages to compare?? 66.32.153.198 18:40, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Well,you provoked me into posting my own system for naming extremely large numbers into the Talk page for that article.The fact is that the death rates for supercentenarians are so extreme that most of those who lived to turn 114 were dead within seven months!On the other hand,there are scientists who sincerely believe that advances now contemplated will lead to people now alive lasting thousands of years,which would make discrete names for EVERY decade look ridiculous.(And there is no real method to your list;the Latin prefixes as for undecillion to novemdecillion would be prepended to -centenarian if there were a real need for it which there is NOT.--Louis E./12.144.5.2/le@put.com

Well, they would properly indicate 101 to 109, not 110 to 190. 66.245.98.229 14:32, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

No they wouldn't...they would indicate ages measured by 11 to 19 complete decades.(Perhaps undecagenarian,duodecagenarian...etc would be clearer?)--L.E./12.144.5.2/le@put.com

The moral of the story is...

The moral of the story is:

Don't simply coin names that you consider fine just because of how YOU view them. There could be other people who might view these names differently in a way that suggests that they're silly. 66.32.81.163 22:26, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Living thousands of years

Living thousands of years?? Louis Epstein wrote above that there are people who now think it is possible to live thousands of years, but this can make planet earth overpopulated in that we don't have enough water or space. Any opinions about this?? 66.245.27.105 21:17, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

My response would be that such advances would be coupled with others that would vastly expand human habitat beyond this planet.--L.E./12.144.5.2/le@put.com

You might also imagine we might cease reproducing, or that only a few people could afford the necessary treatments to live indefinitely. Titanium Dragon 12:36, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:People by year

Based on the recently added categories year of birth/death, the following report is available: Misplaced Pages:People_by_year/Reports/Oldest. It's being used to complete missing categories and to check the ones already added. It shows also people in category:Supercentenarians younger than 110 years. -- User:Docu

Edit wars today

Twice today I've removed excessive disclaimers inserted by Marcus2 (in his former numeric incarnation he added others which were acceptable,but today's batch seem obsessed with minimizing the significance of documented age claims entirely).As I said in a comment the first time,if we don't regard what we know as important,there is no point in calling anyone a "recordholder".Some of us work for years to get age claims properly documented,and a "but we don't really know anything" response is really bothersome.I have contacts all over the world doing their best to uncover every possible case.

On the other hand,I strongly believe that so long as a claimant remains anonymous,the validation of the claim should be regarded as insufficient to merit listing because it is not open to outside scrutiny.(For similar reasons,unlike Robert Young,I oppose the listing of Maria Laqua and Lina Zimmer).A number of cases are "taken on faith" based on government reports,but in Japan for instance you can go look at records;in Germany you can't.If the "anonymous French lady" is to be considered truly bona fide,it must come at the expense of her anonymity.--Louis Epstein/le@put.com/12.144.5.2 04:22, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Page move

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved:

Supercentenarian → Oldest person

Which does the article look like more to you, an article on the concept of living to be 110 or an article on lists of oldest people of a specified kind?? Georgia guy 02:44, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• I am neutral as to the proposed move, while it does have a list of oldest persons element, it is not exclusively a list. My biggest concern is whether "supercentenarian" is actually a word, since I have yet to find it in a dictionary, and as it does mean "over 110 years of age" it just means "people over the age of 100" (from super- = above, or over; and centenarius = of a hundred), a quality for which the term centenarian already adequately applies. On spec, and seeing how other words are put together artificially in English from Latin roots (like sesquicentenarian...which is already reserved for people over 150), I'm pretty sure the term for someone over 110 years would be decicentenarian. Further, to counteract a statement from the article... Strauss and Howe didn't really set out to popularize a term about over-100 individuals (actually, their book doesn't really broach the subject much at all), instead, their work was nothing more than a pitiful attempt to take Thomas Carlyle's writings and lectures on On Heroes And Hero Worship And The Heroic In History (which were based largely on trying to identify with strong European autocrats through a post-Napoleonic worldview) and try to justify American hegemony and its growth over the ages. Lastly, as an aside, I do not feel that Oldest person is the proper name for the article, as it is an article about and list enumerating oldest people. —ExplorerCDT 19:26, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose - The term is part of the larger scheme of terms for senior citizens, as seen at supercentenarian in the table on the right. Any candidate for 'oldest person' is a supercentenarian.

Responding to the issues raised by ExplorerCDT above, in a google test it's clear that 'supercentenarian' is a term that is in use (3,800 hits), while 'decicentenarian,' though possibly more correct, has no been picked up . See also this medical dictionary entry, and this table of the "Emerging SuperCentenarian Population."--Nectarflowed 06:24, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• Split into two (short) articles, supercentenarian and oldest person: the article seems to break down into two separable parts, the first discussing supercentenarians and the second discussing who was the oldest person. While the oldest person in the last 100 years or so was over 110, there are likely to be historical records of people who were reputed to be the oldest person but not over 110. -- ALoan (Talk) 15:06, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

A quick run through looks like every person listed on the page was 110 or over. IMO splitting the article would take a somewhat decent article and split it into two stubs that would never become full articles and would necessarily contain duplications.--Nectarflowed 15:39, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose. Neutrality 22:24, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)

Tables

Per my edit summary, please would User:12.144.5.2 and User:4.250.177.182 discuss here whether the article should use tables. For my money, the table are 100% clearer than long bullet-pointed lists.

Also further to my comment above, perhaps we should consider whether the tables should be moved out to a separate page, Oldest person. -- ALoan (Talk) 17:52, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Mr. Aloan, you you so much for your tables, I bitterly resent Mr. Epstein's vandalism to anything he does not agree with.

Please please PLEASE minimize use of tables!!

OK,I am not reverting your table-izing vandalism YET,but please be aware that ANY use of formatted tables is EXTREMELY unfriendly to Lynx,in which I do all my web work whenever possible.

So you're saying that even though YOUR choice of software doesn't function properly or efficiently, you refuse to change it to something better (because you're resistant to change) and therefore want everyone else to bear the burden of your intransigence. Why not just try another software, as these posts have suggested? (Ryoung122 07:30, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC))

Anything in table format is MUCH harder for me to edit,and remember that I can not interpolate lines or cut and paste,I have to manually retype an entire article below anything I insert into it if there isn't enough space.Bullet-pointed lists are IMMEASURABLY easier to work with on the editing side and appear virtually identical on the reading side to anyone with a text browser. If this article becomes dominated by tables it becomes impossible for me to work with,which may thrill Robert Young but would annoy me no end after all the work I have put into it.--Louis E./le@put.com/12.144.5.2 20:38, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry - I didn't realise that tables were such an issue for Lynx users; however, for anyone using a graphical browser, information in tabular form is often much easier to read than a long bullet-pointed list, particularly when each bullet point has the similar information in the same order (name, country, dates, etc). Isn't it possible to use vi or ed or another text editor to circumvent your inability to interpolate lines or cut and paste? Does it help if you edit sections rather than the whole page? I'm afraid I've not used Lynx on Misplaced Pages - User:Austin Hair may be able to help - I think he uses Lynx.

In any event, I am slightly offended that you casually use the word "vandalism" (an act motivated by hostility to the arts and literature of a culture, or willful destruction or defacement of its built environment) to describe a good-faith effort to improve the article. -- ALoan (Talk) 21:16, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Over 95% of the world uses either IE or other browsers compatible with these tables (Mozilla, Firefox, Netscape). That you choose to be in the extreme minority is your personal choice, but don't force your edits on others for your own convenience. That in itself is selfish, considering you actually FAVOR using tables at the GRG site (when others have to do the work for you).

We can reach a compromise by either using a split ("see also national longevity recordholders") where you can focus primarily on the background info, or integrating tables above with text below.

The tables, of course, came from Guinness World Records, which in the 2005 edition continues the tradition of tables. (RYoung)

Um,I don't think you understand quite what I'm responding to here.ALoan didn't just put back the national-recordholders table (which I oppose in large part because it repeats information and repeats links) but turned ALL the lists into formatted tables that are impossible for me to edit easily.Any Misplaced Pages article that presents data as formatted tables is substantially harder for me to edit than one that doesn't.Anyway,I can see that some people are interested in who the oldest person from country X is,and I think the separate article presents a lot more information than the table does.But an article that is concerned primarily with the extremes of human longevity as such should minimize the importance attached to nationality.I always felt the one-person-per-country approach of Guinness was a weakness,though a list of recordholders is better than no information.--L.E./12.144.5.2 22:07, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I know exactly what you're responding to here.

Let me suggest a compromise solution:

USE TABLES FOR ALL LISTS EXCEPT FOR THE " OLDEST LIVING PEOPLE" LIST.

Let's face it, the "oldest living person" list changes about once a year, on average--all the previous recordholders are dead! The "oldest living man" and "National Longevity recordholders" usually change only once or twice a year. Therefore, a TABLE is fine for those lists.

However, the "oldest living people" list changes quite prequently,usually once a month. Therefore, I suggest not using tables for that one (but we could maybe put the numbers at the beginning, such as

1. 2. 3.

OK?)

The vast majority here prefer the tables, and your suggestion that crooked lines are easier to read is silly. (Ryoung122 07:35, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC))

Further responses

I see some more responses I didn't notice came in after I posted the above.I called the table-infliction vandalism because for my purposes it drastically UNimproves the article.The term may be more appropriate to the total wipeouts repeatedly done to the National longevity recordholders article but in any event,an article with the data presented in tables is a flying triple jump backwards as far as I'm concerned.As for the GRG site I wish they would just use the HTML PRE and /PRE commands to present the data exactly as I send it.--Louis E./12.144.5.2 22:16, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Would it be possible for you to switch over to the "Links" browser? It's text-based like Lynx, but it does a much better job of rendering tables. --Carnildo 18:26, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

What tables look like rendered in Lynx is not the problem (I find that differs most depending on version and terminal drivers).The work I have to do editing Wiki code multiplies massively if something is in table format,for no useful result as a reader.Essentially,the presence of formatted tables in this (or any other) article makes it not worth my while to edit.--L.E./12.144.5.2 06:26, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I think there is a useful result for the reader - the tables are about 100% clearer for me than the bullet point lists. I'm sorry that it makes it difficult for you to edit, but most other editors don't seem to have the same problem, and most other readers seem to see the tables as a positive change.

I'm not sure why you find it so difficult to edit tables - do other Lynx users have the same problem? -- ALoan (Talk) 12:00, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I expect so.Anyway,the tables are NO clearer to me,and the editing process MUCH uglier.Not impossible,but it imposes a chore on me for the exclusive and dubious "benefit" of others.It doesn't look like I can get through to you how important it is to me to get RID of those tables,but it really,really,really is important to me!--L.E./12.144.5.2 04:15, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I just tried editing tables in Lynx, Links, and Links2, and editing them in lynx was something of a pain. Links and Links2 do a much better job. --Carnildo 05:48, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

How much would ever have been contributed here if no-one had ever shared their knowledge "for the exclusive benefit of others"? Susvolans (pigs can fly) Did you know that there is a proposal to treat dissent from naming conventions as vandalism? 14:02, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Certainly more is likely to be contributed when people's preference as to their contributions' formatting are respected.Some of Misplaced Pages's naming conventions are vandalism.(As is using HTML commands for dashes when there are perfectly good hyphens on your keyboard).--L.E./12.144.5.2 15:56, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

(unindent) Well, there seem to be at least three of us who prefer the tables, and only you who does not, but the aim here is to find a consensus. You say that the rendering of the tables is not a problem, so presumably it is only the editing issue that is your real concern. Carnildo suggests using another text browser like Links or Links2 - have you tried that? does that help at all?

If you are not going to respect consensus on issues like the Manual of Style and Naming conventions then I'm not sure how much good it is going to do continuing this discussion, particularly when you revert the page while we are still discussing it (see below). -- ALoan (Talk) 16:03, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Mass reversion

If you wish to edit an article, you really should avoid undiscriminatingly reverting all other recent changes merely because they came after the edit you object to. Susvolans (pigs can fly) Did you know that there is a proposal to treat dissent from naming conventions as vandalism? 14:16, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The proposal is not a general proposal to treat it as vandalism, it's an attempt to end a long-running and particularly silly edit war. --Carnildo 18:26, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Anyway,as I said on my own talk page,my revert-edit was more discriminating than you give it credit for.Besides removing the formatting I object to I also removed the self-promotionally arbitrary link to the NanoAging Institute,which has no specific stature in the study of supercentenarians,removed some useless repetitions of information,and added a couple of other links (one of which Susvolans refined and restored,the other he did not).--L.E./12.144.5.2 21:56, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Massive list of reasons for modified mass reversion

To the best of my ability,I will post this explanation and a new modified "mass reversion" of the article simultaneously.If an "edit conflict" is triggered by someone else working on either article or talk page while I am,the simultaneity will fail,but at least I'm trying.As noted,I am not being "undiscriminating",each and every change is made for a reason,here's a list of changes and reasons.

• Remove table formatting:The bone of contention right here.I don't see that the passing convenience of someone whose only participation in this article has been to insert the formatting and cause massive inconvenience to someone who has done a lot of work on the article should suffice to make it immune to reversion no matter how long discussion continues.Abandoning the browser I have used and promoted for over a decade is a bit much to ask casually.

Louis, the problem is YOU. You don't want to use spaces in sentences, you want to be difficult, you don't want to compromise, you won't change even if 99% of other users don't agree with you. Guinness used tables, and you got the whole idea from them, anyway(Ryoung122 07:53, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC))

• Remove HTML dashes:The Susvolans pet practice,which like table formatting I see as pointless byte-bloat.Since eventually the Wiki code is supposed to interpret hyphens as HTML-dashes,stick to hyphens now!
• Restore link to Herkimer County:Why not?
• Restore specification of Jeanne Calment's lifespan:It's the record.It's relevant.
• Remove Table of National Recordholders:Most of the information in this table is things that have already been stated earlier in the article,repeating links to articles that were already linked earlier in the article.The rest of the data is more informatively presented in the new separate article.

NOT true! First of all, nowhere else mentions "emigrant recordholders." Nowhere else mentions the national longevity recordholders. Since the table was made first, it's YOUR article that is the duplication. While I see some benefit to giving further explanation to the decision-making for each record, you seem to once again treat the page as a "pet project" that only you can edit--which is bad for all of us. (Ryoung122 07:53, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)).

• Change Link from One GRG Table to Page With All of Them:Provides access to more information,tables of mine and of Robert Young's.Identifying GRG may tie in with today's front-page Wall Street Journal article...which mentions Robert and not me.
• Remove Link to NanoAging Institute:The inclusion of a link to this group is totally arbitrary.The group has no particular prominence with regard to supercentenarian research (someone also added a link to the Centenarian article,equally arbitrary).

Rare agreement! NanoAging has little or nothing to do with the supercentenarians article. (Ryoung122 07:53, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)).

There are many groups doing research into extending life but there's no reason to link them all and there are better places to discuss them.

They can form their own article, "maximum human life span", and debate what the maximum is and whether it can be changed. (Ryoung122 07:53, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)).

• Note that I am NOT pouncing on everywhere I disagree with Robert and putting things my way,or deleting the link to his Yahoogroup

First of all, a Yahoo group reflects how the "owner" runs it. I have run a clean ship, no spam, and the group is the best inside source for information on supercentenarians, bar none.

Your own link at www.recordholders.org could also be deleted! At my Yahoo group, tables are provided that the user can download. In addition, I have the largest collection of supercentenarian photos available anywhere on the web, including the GRG. (Ryoung122 07:53, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)).

though I have never linked any article to pages featuring my own efforts,any such link in Misplaced Pages having been put in by someone other than me,as with User:Raul654 linking to my table here (see above on this talk page).(Does any Misplaced Pages article link to any Yahoogroup?)

• Refine locality links under Ramona Trinidad Iglesias-Jordan in oldest-persons table:So it works and people see information.

I'm not naive enough to think this will do anything to calm these disagreements.But I want people to see that I act with careful thought,not a random egotistical meatax.--Louis Epstein/le@put.com/12.144.5.2 03:43, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I don't see that. Useful suggestions are brushed aside for anything that doesn't agree with the "Epstein" way, including naming conventions, punctuation, etc. (Ryoung122 07:53, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)).

Elizabeth "Pampo" Israel

Anyone heard of this Dominican woman. She is said to have lived till 127. Mandel 16:40, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)

She has her own article (Elizabeth Israel), which examines the claims about her age. Susvolans (pigs can fly) Did you know that there is a proposal to treat dissent from naming conventions as vandalism? 17:31, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)