Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 12:41, 8 February 2007

Spoken Misplaced Pages

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Archives

July 2002 - February 2004 Topic: "Unencyclopedic" (2003) February 2004 - July 2004 July 2004 - June 2005 May 2005 - December 2005 Topic: Galleries (Nov 2005 – Jan 2006) January 2005 - April 2006 April 2006 - September 2006 Sept 2006 – Nov 2006 Dec 2006 – Jan 2007

"not solely yours"

I reverted the change from "not yours" to "not solely yours" to describe user pages. "not solely yours" implies that my user page is partially mine. I don't think this is correct. Martin 00:42, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Well not yours implies that it is not under your jurisdiction at all! There's got to be some happy medium here. → JARED   02:19, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I've made my disagreement with this policy heard already, not only because it is in itself rediculous, but also because nobody can seem to agree on what the policy is anyway, or even how to word it. It would seem to me that, even though I disagree with it, "user pages are not exempt from the rules" and that "objectionable content will be removed" fits the bill, however the (in my view) pointless prerequisite for all policy here to be prefixed with "Misplaced Pages is not..." may prevent such a wording. 82.153.142.162 10:45, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Why not just remove the section altogether? It's mostly duplicating "Misplaced Pages is not a blog, webspace provider, or social networking site". Martin 14:45, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that and the section above it really don't fit. → JARED   15:07, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. Misplaced Pages has a current and serious problem with abuse of the userspaces. Removing the section on userspaces dilutes and confuses the message. While it might possibly be consolidated with some of the earlier sections, the wording of this section has aspects not covered by the others. It should not be removed until we have consensus on replacement wording. Rossami (talk) 03:23, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

What aspects of "What your user page is not" are not covered by the section "Misplaced Pages is not a blog, webspace provider, or social networking site"? Martin 13:08, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

The main one is probably that there's no ownership of the user page, you don't own it, and anyone can edit it. I think it's also worth emphasizing the point about userpages since they are so often abused. --Milo H Minderbinder 13:38, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Support removal. Roassami would you care to enlighten me on what this "current and serious problem" involves? I've still yet to see any evidence of a problem, and continue to fail to see how userpages affect the encyclopedia. I still don't see why we can't just leave people to put whatever they want on their userpage. The very name "user page" implies that it is the page of the user and nobody but the user - the question in my mind is why SHOULD other people be allowed to edit it? There is no reason for people to want to do that other than vandalism - it's not an article and the User Talk page is there for any communication other people might want to have with the user. What business would I possibly have editing your user page for instance? What would be the point? What would it achieve? What does it achieve by making user pages a communal editing space? What function do they possibly play if everyone can, are encouraged to, and do, edit them? Also you've got the problem of who is going to police this rule? How is it going to be enforced? What would even constitute a violation of the rule? If someone wrote "I own this page so don't edit it" on it? On the whole I think this policy is weak and poorly thought out beaurocratic nonsense. I don't see the necessity for such a policy nor do I see a problem with users having their own personal space to talk a bit about themselves.▫Bad▫harlick♠ 09:07, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

There are plenty of reasons that people can't put whatever they want on their user page. Some examples include soapbox ranting, copyright vios, attacks on other users, excessive self promotion, etc. And others can edit user pages to fix those issues. The point of a user page is to give people an idea who you are, not be a blank slate where you can do whatever you want. We're all here to make any encyclopedia, and generally we should be spending our time on that, not making elaborate user pages. Generally, people aren't going to edit other users' pages unless there is a problem - if there really is an issue, other editors will support the edits, and if the other editor is editing for bad reasons, other editors will likely revert it and support the person who's bage it is. And generally, if people write "I own this page so don't edit it", it is ignored or even deleted if the page has other issues that require editing. --Milo H Minderbinder 13:44, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

As Milo said, there are many things which are inappropriate on a userpage and can become harmful to the project even though they are restricted to the userpage. I'm sure you've read WP:USER and it's Talk page archives but that's where the rationale is really laid out. WP:USER also established exactly what is and is not a violation of our standards. As to policing it, that's a function of WP:MFD - and if you track that page for a few weeks, you will see the evidence of the "current and serious problems" we are having. Rossami (talk) 16:03, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I will happily concede that a user page does not afford the freedom that a website does, but that to me seems only logical; I would have thought that it would be considered more specific than a website. A User Page implies that it is a page about the user, IE the person behind the name, but I can see how it could be misinterpreted to mean "you can do whatever you want here". Perhaps "User Bio" would be less ambiguous/open to interpretation? ▫Bad▫harlick♠ 15:15, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion

Hi, there has recently been a large debate over Rosie O'Donnell and Donald Trump Controversy where one user has been saying the page does not violate anything here at Misplaced Pages:Not. This page hardly seems Encyclopedic over the many other celebrity fueds, and it's existance suggests that all tabloid celebrity topics are acceptable. Misplaced Pages is an Encyclopedia, not an extension of EW or ET or People or any of those other gossip magazines/shows. So, I was wondering if perhaps Misplaced Pages is not a Tabloid should be added. Thanks for the time, Scorpion 02:21, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

• 1) Adding a new general rule to What Misplaced Pages Is Not in order to solve a specific problem with a specific article is not a good idea.
• 2) I do think that Misplaced Pages has a structural problem in that people enjoy attacking celebrities they dislike, or are idologically opposed to, by adding true, but unflattering and unimportant material to the article. As WIkipedia is currently constituted, the best that can happen (and the best does often happen) is that the spitefully-motivated material becomes worded accurately, neutrally, and cites a published, reliable source, and that the overall balance of the article remains fair. What Misplaced Pages is unable to do is to declare gossipy or trashy information off limit. Misplaced Pages is not limited to "all the news that's fit to print." Misplaced Pages has an extremely strong cultural preference for retaining absolutely anything at all, regardless of trashiness or contributors' motivation, as long as it is neutral and is an accurate description of a published source.
• 3) These structural characteristics of Misplaced Pages are (in my opinion) a problem with regard to articles about living people, and I think its widely recognized that it is a problem, as the Seigenthaler incident demonstrated. I don't think anyone, certainly not me, has any idea about how to solve it.
• 4) One thing's for sure: adding a "WIkipedia is not a tabloid" section isn't likely to help. It conflicts with "Misplaced Pages is not censored," and I think that it is going to be virtually impossible to define what is meant by "tabloid material" in a way that is clear enough that two different editors with different points of view will nevertheless make consistent judgements about whether a piece of material meets the definition. 13:04, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

P. S. I haven't looked at the AfD discussion yet, but the particular article in question cites no sources at all and does not meet WP:V. Dpbsmith (talk) 13:20, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Historical significance, new events

"Misplaced Pages does have many encyclopedia articles on topics of historical significance that are currently in the news, and can be significantly more up-to-date than most reference sources since we can incorporate new developments and facts as they are made known."

While the remainder of this article is perfectly clear, this sentence has rather fuzzy wording. It seems to eigther make a jump, contradict itself, or refer to something that is not mentioned explicitly, depending on how you read it. After reading it over and over again it starts to make some sense, but I'm still not 100% sure I understand it right. Could somebody please explain or, even better, make this sentence understandable on first reading? Thank you! RToV 02:14, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

News reports. Misplaced Pages should not offer firsthand news reports on breaking stories. Misplaced Pages is not a primary source. However, our sister project Wikinews does exactly that, and is intended to be a primary source. Misplaced Pages does have many encyclopedia articles on topics of historical significance that are currently in the news, and can be significantly more up-to-date than most reference sources since we can incorporate new developments and facts as they are made known. See Current Events for examples.

— WP:NOT#OR

My own interpretation is that while WP can have articles on issues and events which are in the "here and now" (versus "last year"), we are not publishing news stories. That is, talk about the "War on Terror," but don't create an article which has to be updated each week to reflect the current U.S. DEFCON level. So WP can have articles on topics which are of historical significance (that is, not just last week's crime statistics), but not "breaking news." For me, objectivity also requires a time-sense objectivity, as well as point of view. I resist articles that are based on "the status today, right now," and prefer an article that gives the reader background, and if possible, bring the reader up to date.

Because each article is an evolving, living document, such a topic can be updated with recent developments and trends. "Developments and trends" does not mean "last night's news." Is this any clearer? Perhaps if you post the question with an article (or idea of an article) that you have in mind....? David Spalding (☎ ✉ ✍) 03:58, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Very much clearer. After a great deal of careful reading and comparing, I think you've got the drift of both the part I understood and the part I didn't. Only in a completely different and much better wording. With some edits it could replace the current version. Shall we give it a try? RToV 12:04, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Long lists of people that just keep getting longer

I'm not sure if this policy covers this issue well enough. Here's a scenario. A page about special visual effects. On the page is a list of people who are "notable." It starts out with Wally Veevers, Albert Whitlock, Ray Harryhausen, Peter Ellenshaw, John Dykstra, Dougals Trumbull ... you get the idea. Suddenly the list starts growing. More and more names are added, Robert Abel, Gary Ralston, Greg Jein, Dennis Muren, Con Pederson... hey, they're notable, they've won awards, are credited by others, their names are on the films! They're supervisors on films, or they were interviewed on DVD extras, they created their own FX companies, whatever. Next you know, the list is 90 names long. According to a guideline or two, really the list ought to be a prose paragraph or at least names that could be worked into the article due to their notability (this is my interpretation of WP:LIST, WP:LISTV, WP:NOT#IINFO, and Five Pillars). But we really don't seem to have a bullet item that says "no long list of indiscriminate information." (Or do we, and I'm just blind today?) So there are arguments sprouting on a page I'm actually working, wherein some arguably notable people are adding themselves to the list, despite WP:COI and WP:NOT#SOAP. Complaints from editors that the list is too short. What's an editor to do? (Besides passionate apathy, that is.) Any opinions or suggestions welcome, I think we need to update this page so that we can at least strongly discourage overlong (43 lines?) lists within articles. David Spalding (☎ ✉ ✍) 17:53, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Splitting the longer list to a separate article, conforming with Misplaced Pages:Lists (stand-alone lists)#Lists of people, seems like the best option. It would still allow for two or three of the most important people to be listed in prose, beneath the {{details}} link to the list. Neier 23:52, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

• WP:BIO has a section about such lists of college alumni (a subset of what you describe). This could bear expanding. In general long lists of people aren't particularly useful. >Radiant< 10:53, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

• Consider this actual example: List of famous left-handed people. What next-- Lists of people by eye colour? By shoe or hat size? One can find odd ways to divide up individuals ad infinitum. Is there (or should there be) a limit for lists that have no apparent constraints on length?--Leflyman 11:18, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Who cares? Left-handedness is an interesting phenomenon. Misplaced Pages is not paper: we can afford to have lists like this. JROBBO 11:56, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

• OTOH, Misplaced Pages is not toilet paper, and such lists of trivia do have a tendency of getting deleted on AFD. >Radiant< 12:22, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
  • OTOOH, the original question was about a list of notable people, notable for contributions to their field. That is not trivia, and would stand a better chance at surviving AFD. Unlike left-handedness, there is a gray area at where the notability for visual effects would be cut-off; and, the limitations of prose in an article versus the limitations of a list exclusive for such a purpose would be different. Neier 13:02, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Wouldn't Category:Visual effects artists fit the bill better? >Radiant< 13:17, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Provided all the notables already have articles, and there is nothing more to say within the field of notability about them. But, neither of those are very safe assumptions. Lists can be improved upon. "Wally Veevers, Albert Whitlock, ...." is not a very interesting list. But, generally, people are notable for a reason, and a list can give a summary of the main claim of notability much more concise than a category. If I was trying to remember the name of the visual effects artist who pioneered a way of doing stop-motion, scanning the list and finding "Wills O'Brien, stop-motion animation" would aid that research. Neier 13:50, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Proposed addition - 'Names in other languages' sections

I always thought it was stated under "Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information" or "Misplaced Pages is not a dictionary" but it's not really specified. Examples of this are/were in Donald Duck, Pinocchio (1940 film) and Magica De Spell. It seems especially pointless since you can always go to the inter language links to see the translation. It also is always removed in featured article candidates. Garion96 (talk) 02:22, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

If you're referring specifically to film titles, I think the original language title of the work is appropriate as IMDb does. Only that. Listing the Gadzookistan title of The Wicker Man in the en.wikipedia.org is silly; it's an English language film. Have you checked the Film Portal (style) talk pages to see if it's been raised there? If not, it should be,... feel free. David Spalding (☎ ✉ ✍) 00:44, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Inappropriate use of Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information on afd/cfd

A recurring problem I've seen on afd and cfd discussions is the seeming inappropriate application of the "Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information" section of this policy in nominations. Actually reading that section makes it clear that it is currently fairly limited in scope, listing fairly specific areas of consensus of certain types of information that is not appropriate for Misplaced Pages (ie Lists of FAQs, Travel Guides, How-To manuals, etc). The section's introduction even outright states that "...there is a continuing debate about the encyclopedic merits of several classes of entries, current consensus is that Misplaced Pages articles are not simply" and proceeds to list specific items.

What bothers me is that it is becoming very frequent to see editors in afd/cfd give this section of WP:NOT as reasons for deleting articles and categories that have no seeming relation to the types of information cited. I have no problem supporting deletion of articles that actually violate that section of policy, but I do have a problem supporting a nomination when they are quoting a section of policy that doesn't seem to apply. Basically it boils down to someone thinking an article isn't "important", and cites this section of policy, even though it is not a broad-brush section intended to erase any article that is "unimportant". (A similar problem exists with nominations that simply state an article or category is "fancruft", for example, a term that has no actual use in policy or guidelines.)

So my suggestion to editors is to please use the appropriate section of policy or guidelines, rather than just quote "indiscriminate collection". If something isn't referenced, say that it's not referenced or original research. If it doesn't meet notability standards, mention notability and the appropriate notability guidelines. Don't just say "WP:NOT indiscriminate" unless it is actually one of the types of information included in that section, or use WP:NOT for articles that don't obviously fall under this policy.

Finally, if you feel I'm misreading this section of this policy, please feel free to post and let me know what I'm overlooking. My appologies for the short rant, but it seems a shame when that part of policy is used as a lazy way to handle potential deletion of articles that others have otherwise put up in good faith. My two cents; now back to work. :) Dugwiki 21:37, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The list in that clause was intended to be a set of illustrative and non-controversial examples, not an exhaustive list. It is still possible for something to be an "indiscrimate collection of information" without being on that specific list. The problem is that there are just so many things which an encyclopedia is not that we can't possibly list them all - and if we did, the list would be far too long to read or use.

Having said that, anything not on the specific list would have to be discussed and decided by the community on a case-by-case basis. If you think a particular use of the phrase is incorrect or overly broad, you certainly should challenge the statement in the deletion discussion, backing up your opinion with the relevant facts, logic and references to policy and/or precedent. For example, if Encyclopedia Brittanica does X, that's a pretty good argument that X is encyclopedic and that we should have a darned good reason for not allowing the same in Misplaced Pages. (Note: The converse of that example is not necessarily true.) Hope that helps. Rossami (talk) 22:21, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I pretty much agree with you. Anything not on the list should be discussed on its own merits in afd/cfd. I think there are two problems, though, in how things currently go. One is that some people simply say "WP:NOT Indiscriminate" and nothing else, even when it's not something that has clear consensus in the policy. The other, lesser, problem is that this section of the policy is vague over just how broadly the section applies to information not specifically listed. All it says is that "there is a continuing debate about the encyclopedic merits of several classes of entries" without actually saying whether or not or how the policy might apply to those debated classes of entries. This leads, I think, to sometimes vigorous disagreements over what is and is "trivial information". I'd like to say I had a good way adjust the wording to lessen that problem, but unfortunately it's a complicated issue and I'm not even sure editors and admins here could reach a consensus on just how broadly the Indiscriminate section should be applied. So to sum up, Ross, I'm with you in that I think the best rule of thumb is to always specify exactly why you think something should or should not be deleted. Dugwiki 00:00, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that a sentence added to the main page along that line of reasoning (to avoid claiming WP:NOT without a backing argument) is a good idea. Neier 01:10, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

No - I think you're right— I'm sick of policy being misread to justify deletions. The same with "Misplaced Pages is not a directory" - no one can seem to tell me what a directory is and what it might involve. JROBBO 22:23, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely, many editors just use it as a loophole to cite an actual policy instead of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. The periodic table? Just an indescriminate collection of information - delete it! --Milo H Minderbinder 22:27, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

"Misplaced Pages is not a directory?" That's fairly easy, actually. A directory is a listing provided for accessing entities. Misplaced Pages might have a similar listing of entities, even the same entities, but it is aimed at understanding those entities. Do you want a list of the major architects working today? Such a list would be encyclopedic, since you might be interested in researching your hypothesis that the majority of working architects today were trained in the Blah-Blah-Blauhaus School, or something similar. Do you want contact information for the major architects working today? That's a directory. -- Antaeus Feldspar 04:41, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

1) There's nothing recent about any of this.

2) People say many irresponsible things in AfD discussions and always have, but that doesn't mean they carry much weight. By all means, go ahead and nominate the periodic table for deletion as an indiscriminate collection of information, and see what happens. It won't be deleted, because most editors will feel strongly that the periodic table is not an indiscriminate collection of information. If someone says article X is an indiscriminate collection of information and two-thirds of the people discussing the article agree, the likelihood (barring sock-puppetry, etc.) is that article X really is an indiscriminate collection of information. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:21, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

If the AfD always went the way you just described (people pointing out that "XYZ is indiscriminate because...." or "XYZ is not indiscriminate because...."), then I doubt that the original message above would have been posted. The problem is that WP:NOT is bandied about without any backing arguments as to why the article/list is indiscriminate. Actually, since WP is not a democracy, if there is one discriminate use of the information, then regardless of how many objections (or the strength of said objections) there are, then it should not be deleted on the grounds of WP:NOT. Yet, I have witnessed AFDs where certain lists are legitimatized but still followed by a flood of WP:NOT deletion votes. I don't want to put words into the original poster's keyboard, but, I think that this is the gist of what he was trying to say. Neier 02:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

• I've likewise seen WP:NOT keep floods from time to time. People on both sides of the debate sometimes don't have an argument but pretend they do anyway, and there's no feasible way of stopping that. >Radiant< 08:52, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

The two thirds thing just sounds like voting to me. If two thirds say WP:IDONTLIKEIT, those will be ignored. But if they say "WP:NOT indiscriminate", they still aren't providing a real argument but it's taken more seriously because they're citing a policy. Closing admins shouldn't count "votes" without reasoning behind them, but it happens. --Milo H Minderbinder 14:38, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

• That is true, and a long-standing problem. However, the problem lies in the people, not in the process, so the solution is not to change the process but to tell those admins what they are doing wrong. >Radiant< 14:49, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you're correct this isn't a recent problem, and I hopefully didn't imply it was. It is a longer standing issue and it does reflect, at least in part, a misuse or misunderstanding of that part of the policy. My main hope is that by reminding people about it here, the discussion will help newer editors understand when and when not to cite "indisciminate info collection". And who knows, maybe there's a minor rewording that will help too. Dugwiki 18:04, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

One problem I see here is that the WP:NOT guidelines are not fixed - they are changeable. I have used the argument that "Misplaced Pages is not an almanac" since I'm sure that used to be on the list - but then when I went to check recently, it wasn't. This was used particularly in the recent sports Afds on FA Premier League results December 2006 and FA Premier League 2006-07 goalscorers. Are the WP:NOT rules to be determined by precedent? QmunkE 19:40, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

"Alamanacs" was only on the policy page for a single day in December. It was added by Robdurbar on December 28 2006 and removed on December 29 2006 with the comment that there was no consensus on almanacs. There apparently has been no consensus on that being in the policy. Dugwiki 20:07, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

By the way, the two example debates mentioned above that referred to "alamanacs" also took place during those dates. So apparently those particular debates actually referred to something that was put on the policy page prematurely and removed almost immediately the next day. Dugwiki 20:29, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Being one of the AfDers who has recently fallen foul of this, I thought I ought to add my opinion. Indeed, I was just heading here to bring up the very same issue.

I think it needs to be made clearer whether not an indiscriminate collection of information is to be used only for the specific examples or not. I didn't really pick this up from the policy and hence quoted it referring to the general case rather than one of the specifics. To make things a little more confusing, Misplaced Pages:List of bad article ideas lists Extremely specific details which only a dedicated few care about - the way which I was using the policy - pointing at the policy in question. Yet this is not listed as a specific example in the policy.

Clarification is required as to whether the nine listed 'nots' are exhaustive or just a few examples. Or, as it would seem, that you may go beyond the listed examples, if you give a good rationale as to why the policy applies. →Ollie (talk • contribs) 11:26, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Policy is not a computer program, and Wikipedians are not processors. Misplaced Pages is the sum of what Wikipedians actually do. They write pages called policy, they express opinions in AfD, they cite policy in AfD in hopes of influencing others, WIkipedians who are admins read the AfD and may or may not do something predictable, etc.

Policy pages tend to specifically spell out the things WIkipedians really are agreed on. WP:NOT says Misplaced Pages is not a directory of "Genealogical entries." That's because we really agree on that. If someone puts in an article that is just a collection of geneaological entries, it will get a consensus for deletion. The people editing WP:NOT are savvy enough that this would not be in the policy page if it were not the case.

If a class of topic isn't mentioned in WP:NOT, that does not meet that Wikipedians consider it encyclopedic, or that anyone is entitled to submit articles about them. It just means that the results of taking such an article to AfD are not going to be perfectly predictable.

If someone gives as a reason that an article is "an indiscriminate collection of information," it's reasonable to point out that it is not one of the specific examples mentioned in WP:NOT, in hopes of influencing other people's opinions. But it is still all a question of judgement. There are surely things that most WIkipedians would judge to be indiscriminate collections of information that are not specifically mentioned here.

They only will get mentioned on the WP:NOT policy page if a) there's a clear consensus about a brightline kind of indiscriminate information, and b) we get enough articles of that kind that there's some good in mentioning them here.

I could create an article on "the contents of my bookshelves." It might well get deleted as "indiscriminate information." It would not be a very good defense for me to say "WP:NOT doesn't forbid it."

There would be no point in adding a provision about "articles about the contents of bookshelves," though, unless it was clear that we were really getting a lot of them, so there would be some point in trying to warn people off. Dpbsmith (talk) 21:17, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Just to reply to your bookshelf example and comments, DPB, an article about the contents of your bookshelves would fail verifiability (since it's not from a verifiable independent publisher) and also wouldn't meet notability guidelines. So there would be no reason to try to apply WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE to your personal bookshelf article, because it would be deleted for other reasons.

Which brings me to the point that the problem is that editors are referring to the wrong policy or guideline. If something isn't notable, they should refer to WP:Notability. If it's not verifiable, use WP:V. Those two references alone cover the majority of articles that editors might consider "unencyclopedic" or "trivial". Using WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE for things not listed there likely means you are misapplying that part of the policy and should instead be looking at other policies or guidelines for support of your argument for deletion. So just because WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE doesn't apply doesn't necessarilly mean the article meets other standards for inclusion, and in cfd an afd debates I'd rather focus on the things that do clearly apply. Dugwiki 18:45, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

indiscriminate adj. done or acting at random or without careful judgement.

— Oxford Concise Dictionary

I concur and appreciate all the arguments and suggestions put forth here -- how's that for wussiness? Two distinct issues occurred to me reading the initial post: that "indiscriminate" is a subjective term and must be discussed and argued, you can't just say "it's indiscriminate, so nyeahh!" and be done ... also, notability is subjective, and must be discussed, and the very idea of discriminating what is included in WP is establishing notability and writing about it in a encyclopedia fashion. So discriminating writing happens twice, once when establishing an article's notability and writing about here, and then when editing the article making sure it doesn't have humongous lists of information, or endless detail that derails the article from being a concise summary and makes it a thesis. (One example: the Bodhran page had two screenfuls of "Players" listed, and more coming weekly. It was becoming endless, as "notability" was being interpreted loosely.)

There are several things I find indiscriminate: lists of sports results, films in which a character stubbed out a cigaret on the ground, characters in Batmana comics. These are lists. There are also complete articles on episodes of Heroes (tv). Would I reach for the Brittanica for a list of story outlines of THE TWILIGHT ZONE? Hell no. But people insist that episode synopses of FIREFLY, HEROES, and whatever need to be in here, they're notable (maybe) and the descriptive articles very discriminating (maybe; OR and NPOV additions are expunged quickly and mercilessly).

Problem with this policy is that perhaps the "indiscriminate collection of information" section does not establish that these issues have to be discussed on a case by case basis, and that the policy itself can't a) be a comprehensive list of examples, and b) be ruled out for cases which aren't listed in teh policy at a given moment. Almanac was a great example, it was added quickly, while there were sports results AfD discussions going on, and a complaint was registered that the policy was written to support those discussions, so the editor reverted himself out of decorum and fair play (and I applaud him; not everyone has the guts to admit a mistake and correct it without coercion). I think it's fair to add it now after checking the discussion on this page (above). But the original poster raises a very important issue: we need to edit this policy section so that it doesn't sound all-inclusive or final. Hope I helped the discussion, David Spalding (☎ ✉ ✍) 01:13, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

This is a good proposal to police the contents of lists. However, you've left out one distinction that I think we need to consider. Discriminate (requiring judgement, as defined above) also implies that a choice must be made, to see if a particular item on the list falls on the "include" or "exclude" side of the bar. Lists can be split to two groups: those which can be completed, and those which cannot (and which the contents need to be discriminately decided). A list of people who played a particular instrument is practically unending. A list of people who played a particular instrument and who are notable for it (or who promoted it, etc) need not be specifically limited by our policy, but is better off to be maintained by people familiar with the subject. Having the policy here to say "it's ok to include some, but not others" is a good idea.

On the other hand, list of episodes, list of video games, list of sports seasons, list of olympic results, and others can be expected to have a clear end. Some of those, I am more interested in than others; but I don't consider the contents within any of those lists to be indiscriminate, because the bar for inclusion is binary (did it exist, yes/no). In other words, no expert in the field of Olympics is needed to decide whether the 1994 figure skating finals should be included or not. There is nothing to discriminate in those lists.

Regarding sports results (and it probably applies equally to video games, movies, books, voting results, whatever), in Brittanica's article about the Chicago Bears, I doubt that they mention any specific season outside of 1985 in much detail. That's because they need to decide what fits in their encylopedia. In our case, we have a featured list Chicago Bears seasons which goes (and links) into detail unimagined by Brittanica. Is each season notable? Well, in 1957, the 1957 Bears season was notable. WP:N#Notability is generally permanent, etc. The 1957 Bears season article does not mention the scores of each game, but, by 2005, not only are we including results, but full rosters, TV announcers for each game (!), etc. Within that article, there is a discriminating line to draw; however, my opinion is that it is south of the results and rosters. Would I like to click out from Mike Ditka, to see who else was on the roster in 1966; and more importantly, is it important? I think so. Would I like to click out from Troy Aikman to see what other games he announced with Joe Buck, and is it important? No. Why did the Bears go 5-7 in 1957? Who beat them? Having the list of results somewhere (I don't know if it is best to keep all together in one article for the league, or duplicate every game twice, once in each team's article for the season) supplies added context, is WP:V, and is not indiscriminate because the season is made up of a set number of games (16, 82, 162, 30, depending on the league). Neier 04:05, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I too have become increasingly annoyed with the editors citing this section without further explaining why an article is "indiscriminate information". It's nothing short of WP:IDONTLIKEIT except using a vaguely worded section on a policy. But I think that can be easily fixed by explaining that the burden of proof rest with the editors who use that argument in a deletion debate and not with the editors defending the article. --Farix (Talk) 00:09, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

If I can add my voice to this much-needed discussion, I think part of the problem is this: the statement, quite rightly, says Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information. This means that Misplaced Pages (through AfD, consensus or policy) may well discriminate against certain types of articles, and types which have community consensus as improper are listed under WP:NOT. Several editors, however, are invoking WP:NOT as if it is unambiguous policy against what they see as "indiscriminate information" - "Lists of fictional entities" are a favourite, as lists with somewhat broad criteria - often backed up by an assertion that the list could "possibly" contain thousands or millions of entries, and sometimes including a ludicrously broad or narrow list example as a straw man ("What next? List of people with fingerprints?"). I am strongly of the opinion that unless something is listed by consensus under WP:NOT, then the community can and should be trusted to keep or delete the article in question, and be sensible enough to maintain that article to reasonable standards of quality, verifiability and notability (such as only including source materials notable enough for an article themselves in the case of fiction lists). --Canley 02:45, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Proposed change to "indiscriminate information" intro paragraph

Here's a suggestion to chew up and discuss and maybe we can get something we can all live with.

Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of items of information. That something is 100% true does not mean it is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages.

While there is a continuing debate about the encyclopedic merits of several classes of entries, current consensus is that Misplaced Pages articles are not simply everything about anything. In any acceptable topic class, a threshold of notable and relevant detail must be established by editors reaching a consensus, and excessive information or trivial details are discouraged.

Some examples include: (continues bulleted list)

— proposed new introduction

Now, let's discuss. Don't mind my feelings, be bold. ;) David Spalding (☎ ✉ ✍) 01:59, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Ahh I like it, but it is somewhat vague for policy, no? I frequently use reasoning along these lines in AfDs - for example, Misplaced Pages is not the place for articles on every conceivable character, village, animal, star chart, and brand of beer mentioned in Lord of the Rings. But, such an argument ultimately goes nowhere because another editor will just say "yes it is." Having policy language that is exceedingly vague only exacerbates this problem, I think.-Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 05:59, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

• A better approach may be to clarify the points as necessary using guidelines. For instance regarding LOTR issues, we have WP:FICT. >Radiant< 11:40, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I smell a loophole. -- Ned Scott 11:49, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Could you specify what is vague? I don't think I removed anything that's in the policy now, only added the statement about "excessive information or trivial details are discouraged" with a link to Misplaced Pages:Notability. Can you try a rewrite of what I put above that isn't as vague? David Spalding (☎ ✉ ✍) 16:39, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I think I'd prefer the phrase "a threshold of notability for an article subject" instead of "notable and relevant". The word "relevant" isn't, that I recall, ever discussed anywhere else in the guidelines, and it sounds like it would be an easily debated characteristic. Notability, however, has received a large amount of discussion and there are numerous guidelines regarding determining the notability of a subject.

In fact, I think a large number of articles which editors call "indiscriminately collected info" actually fail on notability grounds. To use the "books on my bookshelf" example, an article about books I personally own fails notability requirements because there are no independently published articles about my book collection. So even if some people happen to find the information "relevant" or "useful", it still fails on notability grounds because it hasn't crossed the notability threshold of independent analysis or review.

Also, I noticed that most of the items now listed in WP:NOT#IINFO aren't there because the information is "trivial". They're listed because of copyright concerns, or concerns about Misplaced Pages giving formal advice, or notability concerns or style concerns. For example, a FAQ isn't enyclopedic in format, but the information might be rewritten as prose. Information from a memorial should be about someone who already meets notability guidelines. How-to guides are excluded because Wiki can't be held responsible for giving advice; it's only here to give (hopefully) factual information. And plots can run afoul of copyright issues.

So all the things listed, though they might be accurate, have legitimate reasons for exclusion from Wiki. But the reasons transcend that the article is "trivial" or "irrelevant". Rather, they stem from notability and verification, copyright and liability issues. Therefore I think it best if this section focus on somewhat objective and well-discussed things like notability, verification, copyright and liability and not get into subjective debates about what is or isn't "trivia". Dugwiki 18:58, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

• Nope, notability is a guideline and has no real business being linked to from a policy in a manner which endorses it, and certainly a guideline should not be described as something which "must be established by editors reaching a consensus". The wording is fine as is. Steve block Talk 20:08, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Good point. Sometimes I forget that WP:Notability is a guideline, not a policy. So unless that changes, I think you're correct that policies shouldn't refer to notability requirements. Dugwiki 22:29, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, I've been involved in drafting a few notability guidelines, and I've been clear in discussion and in the page's text that they aren't deletion tools but are rather meant as advice to newcomers pondering their chosen subject's merits for inclusion. For example, I want to write an article on foo, so I check our notability guidance to see if foo is notable. However, once it is created editor Y can't list ot for deletion as failing notability criteria. They should cite an actual policy. In no way should we be citing guidelines as reasons for deletion. Guidance is something which is offered and can be rejected. Policy is something to be followed. Consensus is a policy, and I do find it worrying sometimes that a consensus opposing a guideline is trumped by the guideline. The checks and balances need to operate in the correct manner, and well written and sourced articles need to be evaluated as such, not measured against a guideline. Steve block Talk 19:23, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

• I don't care for the proposed language. It strikes me that simply adding words to the effect of "What follows are examples where consensus has been reached, but this list is not exhaustive. Absence from this list does not mean that the policy does not apply." would go a long way toward addressing problems. By the way, can someone point me toward where the ongoing discussion on items to include is taking place? Otto4711 22:49, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

The problem with that suggestion, Otto, is that the sentence "Absence from this list does not mean that the policy does not apply" gives editors no guidance at all as to when it does apply. Let me put it this way. Assume hypothetically we removed all the classes of entries listed in WP:NOT#INFO from that section. All you'd have left is the first two sentences: "Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of items of information. That something is 100% true does not mean it is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages. " Those sentences give no guidance and imply nothing about how to decide whether or not to include otherwise accurate information. Thus the only information of any value in this section, currently, is the specific examples of classes of information that have consensus for which things might be true but still shouldn't be included in Misplaced Pages.

Notice that even if you add your suggested sentence and say "What follows are examples where consensus has been reached, but this list is not exhaustive," how would you know if an example that isn't listed falls under this section? It's not as if there's a clear factor linking all the examples in that list. They're independent types of articles that have varying reasons for exemption.

So unfortunately I don't think the "not exhaustive" sentence will help. I think the approach you have to take is to add new broad classes of information as needed which a broad consensus of editors agree shouldn't be included. For example, if the editorial consensus is that "trivia" shouldn't be included, and the word "trivia" can be accurately defined, then you could add a "no trivia" portion to WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE saying that articles should consist almost entirely of "non-trivial" information. Dugwiki 23:21, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Not a fanzine

Someone brought this up in a thread at WT:COMIC and I thought it was quite a useful point. The point is that whilst Misplaced Pages is not paper, it is also not a fanzine. Just thought I'd bring it here to generate some discussion and see if we can't take it a little further. Steve block Talk 13:18, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

"Trivia" mentioned in five pillars, but not here

I noticed that WP:Five Pillars includes the sentence "Misplaced Pages is not a trivia collection, a soapbox, a vanity publisher, an experiment in anarchy or democracy, or a web directory," but that the word "trivia" is never actually discussed in policies. The best I could find dealing with a description of what "trivia" means is the essay Misplaced Pages:Trivia, which is unfortunately an essay is considered a subjective opinion and doesn't carry the same consensus weight as a guideline. I also noticed that the terms "soapbox" and "web directory" are explained in more detail here in WP:NOT, and "Vanity" is discussed on the guideline Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest.

So it appears that the word "trivia" is left largely undefined by policies and guidelines. But the word is also tossed around in afd and cfd discussions with great frequency, in many cases with vigorous editorial debate about whether an article actually falls under the qualifier of "trivia". Given the broad power of the word "trivia" on deletion debates, is it worth exploring the creation of an actual trivia guideline of some sort? Does Misplaced Pages even have enough consensus on what the term means to form such a guideline? And if not, is there any consensus on how to interpret what that means in terms of the Five Pillars?

The reason I mention it here is that a number of editors seem to link WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE to trivia. So perhaps WP:NOT is a good place to start discussion on the topic. Also, it's possible that there's something I'm overlooking, and I'm pretty sure the editors who follow this page have been around the block enough to know if there's a guideline that already covers this. (The only other thing I could find on that topic was Misplaced Pages:Avoid trivia sections in articles, which deals more with the matter of trivia lists being poor stylistically, and that the information should be presented within prose form in the article itself assuming the information is notable.) Any thoughts? Dugwiki 18:06, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

• Five pillars has morphed over time from "a collection of primary source documents" to "triva collections". Happened around May to October last year, with an intermediate stage of "a collection of source documents or trivia". Trivia itself was superceded for roughly a year by Misplaced Pages:Importance, which itself became Misplaced Pages:Notability, before it was resurrected late 2005. I'd guess most people use trivia as a shorthand term for "not worthy of note", i.e. not notable. However, having witnessed some frightening afd's recently, I think the issue is less that people are using policy wrong, which is absolutely true in my opinion, but that it has become a clique, and is not representative of Wikipedian opinion as a whole. Steve block Talk 19:17, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
• I noticed the reference to "trivia" in 5P but nowhere else. I do think that NOT should include a statement about trivia, given that the very meaning of the word "trivia" includes "unimportant matters" and "something of small importance". Agent 86 20:21, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

What would it to take to forbid long, pointless lists of pop culture references?

Couldn't this policy expressly discourage editors from creating the sort of endless pop culture references that dominate many otherwise well-written, well-organized articles? Could you, for example, edit the WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE list to include item:

"10. Lenghthy lists of pop culture references."

I have been guilty of adding items to such lists, but I readily admit they are distracting and significantly degrade the quality of encyclopedia articles. As mentioned in the discussions above, there are guidelines and essays that deal with trivia, but it would be nice to address this issue as part of an "official policy".--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 12:27, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

There are two problems with this suggestion. One is that not all editors are opposed to pop culture sections, so it's not obvious that there is consensus to having a policy against lengthy ones. Secondly, the length of a pop culture section sounds like a stylistic concern as opposed to something that policy would deal with. The items listed in WP:NOT aren't listed because they detract from the "style" of an article, but rather are there for practical reasons such as enforcing verifiability of information, removing material that might present legal trouble (eg How-To advice), and removing material that could be overwhelming for editors to properly maintain or that suffers from POV issues.

So while it's a good idea stylistically to keep pop culture lists pruned to a reasonable length, it's not an issue that necessarilly has strong consensus on how to handle it nor does it seem to rise to the level of a policy concern. Just my opinion.

Dugwiki 17:13, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Two things would help.

• First, being reasonably assertive about requiring source citations. If the appearance of the Statue of Liberty in Alfred Hitchock's The Saboteur was actually important, somebody will have mentioned it in a publication.
• Second, if there were a general consensus that nobody cares about "I Spy" contests to see who can spot the largest number of passing glimpses, people could start diligently removing such entries from such lists. A story in which the Statue of Liberty carries on an extended conversation with another statue (O. Henry's "The Lady Higher Up"), or plays an extended scene as a character in the story (the movie Ghostbusters 2) is worth mentioning. A movie or video game that includes a glimpse of the Statue of Liberty to establish that the location is New York is not. Dpbsmith (talk) 17:30, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

And your first requirement would effectively cover the second. My favorite is "veiled" references to Scientology (List of Scientology references in popular culture) which boils down to "I think I spy, maybe" and including every instance of that. But it is so dearly loved by many. --Justanother 17:35, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a dumping ground

Misplaced Pages is a not a dumping ground for all those heavily biased opinions that no RS will touch. Controversial material goes: biased source >>> RS >>> wikipedia. If it can't be found in an RS then it has no place here.

What do you think? I know that WP:V and WP:RS cover it but I think stressing the "not a dump" has value. --Justanother 05:24, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes citing opinions from all sides of a debate, including the extremely controversial ones, has value - but yes, they do need to have references. If it can't be backed up as debatable opinion with sources, then it should go, yes, but that's already covered by WP:V and WP:RS as you say. There's no need to expand on this with metaphoric references that people won't understand. JROBBO 06:55, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the current page already covers this sufficiently. I concur with JROBBO, sometimes controversial material can find its way in, with citations. Your proposed addition would just add more metaphors, which can (not necessarily does) weaken a guideline/policy page. David Spalding (☎ ✉ ✍) 18:34, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, controversial material often finds its way in in the circle I travel in (alleged cults) and the only citation is to the heavily biased POV site without support of a 3rd-party RS. In my circle I almost find that to be the rule rather than the exception. Certainly, my suggestion can be reworded without a metaphor. --Justanother 18:46, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Burgerking.

Following the actions of a few editors in insisting it's their way or the highway, I'm highly tempted to add "Misplaced Pages is not Burger King. You do not get it your way." --Barberio 18:32, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I believe there is a separate official policy for what I can gather. Try WP:OWN, which states that no-one owns an article, to the point where they disallow other people from making changes. --tgheretford (talk) 19:36, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I was also thinking more along the lines of "Misplaced Pages is not an experimental form where you can be unique and different. Editors are still expected to follow certain forms and methods." and "Misplaced Pages is not there to make you feel special for knowing the secret handshake.". --Barberio 01:37, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

There are some instances where you'll have it your way, when it is a good idea and upholded by consensus. It's more like "Misplaced Pages is McDonalds; your ideas are mixed with those of others". — Deckiller 01:50, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

A sign I saw at BurgerKing yesterday: "Push. You can have it your way and pull all you want but the door can be pretty stubborn." -- Donald Albury 16:33, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Maybe this...

would be useful? --Barberio 02:33, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

• That would be redundant with "Misplaced Pages is not anarchy". At any rate, you appear to be trying to modify policy to get an edge in a dispute you're already forum shopping over. That's not particularly productive. >Radiant< 09:49, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Radiant, please suspend your personal attacks and wikistalking of me. You yourself have been editing the project pages in order to make your argument stronger - ]. If your behaviour continues in this disruptive and abuse manner, I will raise the issue in an user conduct RfC. --Barberio 13:03, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

• It might surprise you to learn that I've been editing this page since 2005, and I've had it watchlisted for most of the time since then, and that I am a regular contributor to the village pump. The fact that you've been forum shopping is not a personal attack, considering the many different forums where you've attempted to bring up the matter of PER. On the other hand, accusing people of wikistaling, disruption and abuse is a personal attack. So cut it out already. >Radiant< 13:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Read what I posted above? Did I mention your essay there *anywhere* there? No? Then... Gee, that means you just accused me of doing something I didn't do. You have been bullying me in order to get your way ever since the stupidness on WP:EL, and it should stop now. --Barberio 13:19, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

• Okay, that's another personal attack. Anyway, I said that you "appear to be trying to modify policy to get an edge in a dispute you're already forum shopping over". That's precisely what you seem to be doing here. Your remarks clearly indicate this proposal is in reaction to a dispute you're involved in; if it's not the PER dispute I'd be happy to hear what this is actually about? >Radiant< 13:28, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

• A cue, perhaps, to remind people dispute resolution is that way. Whether or not Misplaced Pages becomes a Burger King is something we can debate in the light of the already stated principle that Misplaced Pages is not a battleground. Steve block Talk 13:33, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Never mind. I'm going to take an indefinite leave from the wiki since I'm fed up with Radiant's bullying selfish attitude. --Barberio 13:47, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

• Conditional support if a sentence detailing "beware groupthink" is added. — Deckiller 13:30, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
• I think the intro covers this already, Misplaced Pages is an online encyclopedia and, as a means to that end, an online community of people interested in building a high-quality encyclopedia in a spirit of mutual respect. Steve block Talk 13:33, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Considering this is already covered under WP:OWN, I'm not sure why it's necessary to duplicate that policy here. Is there a fundamental difference between WP:OWN and the proposed policy above that I'm overlooking? If not, it seems a little redundant to have it in both places. Dugwiki 17:16, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
• Comment I could see an insertion of "Not Yours", and a brief summary of WP:OWN, similar to not paper, not a dictionary and not things made up in school one day, which all have their own pages but which are also included here. Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages is not a dictionary is itself a policy that is "duplicated" here. Steve block Talk 19:32, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Not an Almanac?

I'm kind of a newbie to editing Misplaced Pages (long time reader, though) and I'm curious if there should be an added provision that the Misplaced Pages is not a collection of facts and statistics (i.e. not an almanac) Perhaps this is already covered under "1.8 Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information", but I think it could be made more clear, to prevent pages like 1963_German_Grand_Prix (and thousands of others like it) which really do not belong in an encyclopedia, they belong in an almanac. Or perhaps Misplaced Pages is seeking to serve as both? Like I said, I'm new at this. GileadPellaeon 07:51, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Upon further reading of this talk page (which I probably should have done before posting, oops), it appears that the almanac debate has surfaced before. But perhaps there could be some discussion of it separately from the discussion of Notability and whatnot else? I'm not saying almanac-esque information is not notable, just that it's not encyclopedic.GileadPellaeon 08:07, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

• We have such pages as WP:AVTRIV, and the section here that Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminatory collection of information. Does that help? Such almanac-like tables tend to end up on WP:AFD and get deleted (among others, because they tend not to be updated, and there are sports results sites that cover the information better and faster). >Radiant< 12:40, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Ugh, they also frequently end up at AfD and don't get deleted, especially if the topic is something that has a computer-based fan community. -Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 08:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

• Can't see anything overly wrong with 1963 German Grand Prix, seems to have a place within the information chain. Not sure we should have a broad policy which would allow for outright deletion of such useful information. Steve block Talk 15:51, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
• There is currently no policy against almanac type information. In fact, a "not an almanac" clause was added by one editor to WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE but was deleted after about one day due to lack of consensus. The only guideline regarding almanacs that I'm aware of is the WP:AVTRIV style guideline that Radiant mentioned, which recommends that almanac style information be presented within the text of an article as opposed to a bullet-point list of facts. However, this does not preclude the existence of list articles, for example, nor does it imply that such information should be deleted entirely. Rather, it comments on the recommended style used to present the information as opposed to whether or not actual information itself is worthy of inclusion. Dugwiki 17:55, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
• I'm not keen on the indiscriminate and incomplete collection of bits of trivia that don't get updated, but in the case shown here the results of the 1963 German Grand Prix appear to be complete and won't need updating, so that's not a problem to me. Average Earthman 08:30, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Policy name / Merge proposal

I realise this policy has been around for a while, and many editors are no doubt fond of it, but it just struck me that the name is a bit uninformative. Could the name be changed to Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages is an Encyclopedia? This would seem more logical than the current name. AndrewRT(Talk) 19:16, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

• We have Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia. This page is more about what Misplaced Pages isn't, because it's easier to work out what we aren't, and it makes it easier to converse in discussion, we simply say, no, Misplaced Pages is not (a dictionary). It would be hard to have a page which stated Misplaced Pages is not an anarchy in a method that would satisfy the structure Misplaced Pages is... Steve block Talk 19:43, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

• I think everyone "knows" that Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia. That's what's good about the name of this meta-article. The name is supposed to remind everyone that they can't use Misplaced Pages as their own free vanity press, a web site to post whatever they're personally interested in without regard to whether it belongs in an encyclopedia. Netuser500 19:44, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

There's already Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia. --Milo H Minderbinder 19:56, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I've had a look at Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia and it's just a summary of this policy! The status of the other article is unclear - is it a policy, and explanation, and essay? I suggest it is merged into this policy, or I should say replaced with a redirect to this policy because it says nothing that this policy doesn't. AndrewRT(Talk) 14:04, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

• Have you read all the discussion on the talk page there which details what the page is for and why it exists? That may change your opinion on a merge. That page exists as a pointer. Steve block Talk 18:05, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

We need to remove the part about plot summaries

I believe we need to remove the part about plot summaries. There are many plot summary articles that keep getting AfD'd and keep getting kept. People like me might stop nominating them for deletion if we removed that unenforced part of the policy. Netuser500 19:47, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

There are also a lot of plot summary articles that are nominated and that get deleted. So by similar reasoning you could argue that the section should remain in place to help reduce the number of such articles that are ultimately created. Dugwiki 19:57, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Seriously, you need to find a better reason for deleting things than that they don't meet WP:NOT. Misplaced Pages:Centralized discussion/Television episodes has a consensus that deletions aren't helpful, and that whilst we don't do articles which are solely plot summary, a better method is to improve articles away from that flaw rather than deleting them. WP:NOT is not a deletion tool. Hope that helps. Steve block Talk 20:21, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

To clarify something, though, articles which continually fail to meet policy do get deleted. So, for example, if an article is strictly a plot summary with no other information, then it should ultimately be deleted unless it is eventually improved. Normally in such afds I try to include in my comment that "if the article can be improved in such-and-such a way I'll reconsider my delete vote". But articles which are never improved ultimately can get deleted. Dugwiki 20:26, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

The extent to which they fail policy is the key. A well written article on a TV episode which fits into a larger chain of articles about the television show is more likely to stay. Each article is a single instance, as is each afd debate. Steve block Talk 20:40, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Sure, I'll agree there too. Nothing is set exactly in stone, and you have to judge each situation independently. When something comes up for deletion, WP:NOT and other policies are rules to help decide whether something is ok to keep or needs improvement to avoid deletion. Policies have stronger consensus and weight than normal guidelines, so something that doesn't meet a specific policy is more likely to be deleted than something which doesn't meet a guideline. Dugwiki 20:50, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I guess it depends how you define well written. There are tons of articles about TV episodes that are nothing but plot summary, with no sources besides the show itself and none of the other things mentioned in NOT like impact and historical significance. I doubt you'd be able to get an article about an episode of a popular show that's nothing but plot summary deleted. And I'd bet the article would probably never get improved away from that state either. The current view on improving plot summary articles seems to be making them longer and more detailed. This part of the policy is completely ignored on a huge scale. --Milo H Minderbinder 20:52, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Many articles which are just plot summary have been deleted. Television is just one instance of an area where articles consist of plot summaries. Where is this current view referred to? Plot summaries should not get too detailed, that is a breach of copyright. Steve block Talk 21:13, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

They shouldn't, but they often do. And even when that is pointed out, they still are kept at AfD's. --Milo H Minderbinder 21:43, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Many articles get kept at afd, on numerous occasions. This doesn't mean they should be kept, merely that the people who read the debate created a consensus to keep. It took seven debates to delete an article about a picture of Mario riding a dinosaur. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/LUEshi (7th nomination). Steve block Talk 21:51, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Here's a current example: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/The Great Stink (Gilmore Girls). Terribly written article, nothing but plot summary with no sources, and at AfD there's strong support for keeping it. --Milo H Minderbinder 13:31, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

To play devil's advocate on one point, though, terrible writing isn't a reason for deletion. It's a reason to tag the article for cleanup by interested editors. Most of the comments I read in the AFD seem to be of the opinion that if the writing is cleaned up it will be on par with other television series episode articles. Dugwiki 18:14, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

True, the main issue is that it's nothing but plot summary and no sources. Blatant violation of NOT. The article will be kept, and I doubt anything else will be added nor sources. --Milo H Minderbinder 18:22, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm with you there, Milo. One problem in this afd is that the plot summary section of WP:NOT doesn't seem to completely agree with the centralized consensus discussion WP:EPISODE from last year. My guess is that the article probably fails to meet WP:NOT's restrictions on plot-summary only articles, but that it's a case of editors seeing other plot-only articles and WP:EPISODE and assuming that this is an ok practice. I'm personally kind of on the fence regarding plot-only information, so I'm not quite sure how to handle it other than case by case. Dugwiki 18:31, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

You've got four separate pages which offer guidance on this. WP:NOT, WP:EPISODE, WP:WAF and WP:FICTION. They all establish we don't typically do plot summary only articles. Steve block Talk 19:36, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) WP:EPISODE says that plot summaries may be appropriate as part of a larger encyclopedia article. Nothing in WP:EPISODE or that discussion's Talk page says that a page which is a mere plot summary is allowable or appropriate. On the contrary, several people noted that a page which is nothing more than plot summary is going to be a copyright violation more often than not. Plots themselves are copyrighted. Plot summaries are allowable under fair use only in proportion to the other content on the topic.
The central question to me is whether or not the article is expandable beyond a mere plot summary and whether we've given the article enough of a grace period for the expansion to have occurred or not. A page created last week that's still a mere plot summary gets a little more leeway than one which has been unexpanded for a year.
I'd say that WP:EPISODE is very clear that if all we have to say is mere plot summary, then there is not enough "independently verifiable information" to justify spinning the information off into separate articles. WP:EPISODE would tell you to merge those pages back together. Rossami (talk) 19:47, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Another AfD at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Switch (NCIS). Also, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/24 season 6 episodes was recently closed as "no consensus" with the closing admin dismissing delete votes as invalid. --Milo H Minderbinder 16:17, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Since you're concerned about the admin Phil's comments in the "24" afd above, I'd recommend sending him a polite request to give his own feedback on this thread about the Plot Summary section in WP:NOT. It would be worthwhile, I think, to get an admin's insight here. Note that he marked that afd "no consensus", as opposed to simply "keep", but did imply in his comments that he is not generally opposed to plot-summary only episode articles, which would seem possibly to contradict WP:NOT. Dugwiki 16:46, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

You have an admin's insight already. Steve block Talk 17:07, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Ditto.
However, I also would be interested in Phil's explanation of his close. He appears to have weighted his decision based on his own comment that individual episodes can be notable because they can be awarded Emmy Awards. To the best of my knowledge, there are no Emmy Awards for individual episodes. I'm very curious what he intended by that comment. Rossami (talk) 18:29, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I think individual episodes can win technical Emmy's, for sound and stuff like that. But I still can't see the problem here. I don't get Dugwiki's assertion that this page doesn't agree with WP:EPISODE when they both seem to come to the same conclusion, and I can't see a broad support for the fact that Misplaced Pages articles are simply plot regurgitation. Maybe someone can point me to that consensus and then we can discuss the situation further. Steve block Talk 18:35, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

The problem is articles that are blatant violations of NOT and EPISODE getting neither fixed nor deleted. Many editors ignore both and just insist "all episodes are inherently notable" when the issue is not notability but the fact that articles that are nothing but plot fail the "indiscriminate" clause. Whenever a policy is broadly ignored, something is wrong. --Milo H Minderbinder 18:39, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Policies get ignored all the time. But like I say, policies aren't deletion tools. That policies and guidance state that articles aren't solely plot summaries isn't a blank cheque to delete them all, that's a WP:POINT. What it is is a statement of the position. The method of implementing that position is different. It can be gradual, it can be swift, it can mean merging or cleaing it up, it can mean many things. That personal attacks exist does not mean we deprecate the personal attacks policy. That afd can allow decisions which contrast with policy does not mean policy is wrong, it doesn't even mean the afd close was wrong, it just means afd isn't a method for enforcing policy. We go through this. We've been through it on internet phenomena, we've been through it on schools, we've been through it on Pokemon characters. Nothing much is broadly wrong more than normal. Afd is typically an ineffective tool like most of Misplaced Pages. But when it works, like most of Misplaced Pages, the results are fascinating. I don't really see what the issue is. Misplaced Pages is a broad church, and that means compromise and consensus. The consensus is that Misplaced Pages articles shouldn't just regurgitate plot. The consensus is not that articles which regurgitate plot should be deleted, which seems to be your reading of it. I hope that helps. Steve block Talk 21:41, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Episode articles aren't the only articles being targeted, but also episode/media lists: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Bleach media and materials, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Yu-Gi-Oh! GX media and release information, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Yu-Gi-Oh! media and release information. Someone is clearly itching to set a president on the matter even if policies, especially WP:NOT, do not back them up. But I think the main problem is that editors are only seeing the bullet point plot summaries but are not reading the explanation. To them, any description of a WoF's plot is indiscriminate information. --Farix (Talk) 18:48, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

This is the problem, IMO. At best, these episode "summaries" should simply be stubbed and left alone - we have plenty of room for episode lists and episode articles, especially since they don't work within the context of an actual article, and often overwhelm them. It's obvious, in action and at AfD, that this part of WP:NOT isn't at all close to how we actually operate. --badlydrawnjeff talk 00:10, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

You'll have to talk me through it Jeff, since it iterates exactly the point you make. Note the clause "A plot summary may be appropriate as an aspect of a larger topic." I cannot see the problem that you can with the policy, Jeff. I can see that articles are getting nominated for deletion, but that's not the policy's fault. That happens regardless, and should be welcomed. We should never have a situation where no article can be nominated for deletion. Nowhere in this policy does it state that articles which are solely plot summary must be deleted. If it did, I would help rewrite it. Steve block Talk 11:38, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

It shouldn't have to say that, though, since clearly articles which break policies are subject to likely deletion if they aren't otherwise fixed or improved. The whole point of policies is that they lay out areas where there is, supposedly, strong consensus on what is and isn't acceptable for Misplaced Pages articles. Sure, it's possible to have exceptions, but they shouldn't be common and there should be a pretty good reason for being an exception to policy. So, if in fact the WP:NOT Plot Summary section doesn't actually have strong consensus, and a lot of editors actually want to include plot-only articles, then the plot bullet point of WP:NOT should probably be ammended or removed to match what the policy consensus actually is. Dugwiki 16:22, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

First, afd is not a tool for changing policy, it's far too easy to game. Second, what exceptions are we talking about here? All the articles so far mentioned work as part of a broader topic, so comply with this point. Can you show me a number of articles which exist in isolation, are composed entirely of plot summary and have been kept at afd. The actual consensus is that Misplaced Pages articles consist solely of plot summary, although as part of a broader topic this may be acceptable. That has been demonstrated at the afd's you mention above, which detail episodes as part of a series of articles. As yet no-one seems to have acknowledged what the policy says. Everyone only seems to address the fact that some articles aren't being deleted on afd. We've got four policy and guideline pages which offer guidance on how to move forward with plot summary only articles. Steve block Talk 17:11, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The question is whether episode-by-episode plot-only articles for otherwise notable television series are actually part of a "broader topic" as described in WP:NOT. The way WP:NOT#INFO reads, it says that "Misplaced Pages articles on works of fiction should contain real-world context and sourced analysis, ... not solely a summary of that work's plot. A plot summary may be appropriate as an aspect of a larger topic." This phrasing does not imply that articles about a particular episode of a television series are exempt as being part of a "larger topic". Now I'm guessing that you might be able to reasonably determine that general consensus is that plot-only summaries for episodes of notable television series are acceptable, but it's not clear that this is what WP:NOT says as it is currently written. Rather, the wording indicates that plot summaries should be included as part of a larger topic, with the implication that this is within the context of a single article. If you were to interpret WP:NOT as saying that plot summaries for "notable works" are ok, then the plot summary section of WP:NOT would almost never apply to any plot summary. I could write a plot summary and say that it is "simply part of the larger topic of analyzing that book/tv series/etc", and provide a link to the main article for that work.

So I'm becoming convinced that, possibly, the language in the Plot Summary section should be clarified to explain how it pertains to episode articles for television series. Assuming there is some sort of consensus on handling episode articles, then this section should be written in such a way that it more clearly reflects that consensus. Right now it looks like there is a dichotomy between the policy language and the way editors handle episode articles (which is a very large number of articles). Dugwiki 18:47, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

If this is your interpretation, then we need to work harder at making sure this is noted at the relevant discussions. At the moment, it's handed in debates more as how I'm describing it. --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:54, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Jeff, it isn't my interpretation, it is what it says and means. I know how it is used in debates, but that isn't a flaw with policy, that's a flaw with people. People will use anything to mean anything, that doesn't mean we should scrap every single policy. I've been involved in disputes where I've been told I can't call something original research because that's a personal attack. Like I say, Misplaced Pages is a broad church. Push the broad position. The broad position is that we don't want our articles to solely regurgitate plot details. Also, if people want to stand here and state that afd has no flaws then I'll gladly walk away, since I do not believe that to be true. Steve block Talk 18:24, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree that it should be removed. The first immediate problem is it contradicts with "Misplaced Pages is not paper", there is also the fact a plot summary is encyclopaedic when it is decently written and not massively long. Clearly the consensus exists that plot summaries/episode articles are indeed encyclopaedic and belong in Misplaced Pages. What people fail to often get is that we are building an encyclopaedia of a wide spectrum here, not solely on trees, animals and anatomy. thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 18:08, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Everything on the page contradicts "Misplaced Pages is not paper". That's not an issue. Steve block Talk 18:24, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually I'm going to disagree with both Matthew and Steve. Nothing in WP:NOT appears to contradict WP:NOT#PAPER. All WP:NOT#PAPER says is that there isn't a physical storage limit on information, so editors don't have to concern themselves with information getting "too large" for Misplaced Pages to handle. Large articles can be split up, etc. The rest of WP:NOT deals with types of articles and information that are not appropriate for Misplaced Pages for reasons other than just physical space constraints. For example, Original Research is prohibited due to verification issues, not because Wiki doesn't have the physical space for such research. Other information is kept out for technical or legal reasons. You won't find any part of WP:NOT that says "this type of article should be discouraged due to lack of space on Misplaced Pages". So nothing in WP:NOT contradicts WP:NOT#PAPER. All the other clauses of WP:NOT refer to other reasoning besides simply lack of space. Dugwiki 18:59, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Aye, it certainly is. Also was there ever an actual consensus to add this? thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 18:27, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The only relevant discussion appeared to be here, and, I'll be honest, it didn't seem to have much in the way of consensus. Or, to put it another way, I've refrained from adding things to policy/guideline pages with less opposition. --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:50, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay, so it appears there was never a consensus to add this in the first place. It seems logical to remove it then debate if we should add it at all. thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 18:54, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

There was also some discussion here. I think it's fair to say that a solid majority has historically supported the "plot summary" item in one form or another, although the issue has always been somewhat controversial. TheronJ 18:59, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Sure, but consensus isn't a majority. If the original wording lacked consensus to begin with, and this one did too. Perhaps we need to revisit it for real given what we know - I don't think we should remove it without wider discussion, though. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:02, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

There was a consensus in those discussions and there is a consensus at WP:FICTION and WP:WAF and WP:EPISODE, but I'm bowing out of this because the central point I keep making is being ignored in the rush to simply remove it. You guys go right ahead. I'm incredibly disappointed with the style of debate here. WP:CONSENSUS asks for more from our discussions. Steve block Talk 19:06, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't get the impression that there's any rush to remove it at this point, although I do disagree regarding the level of consensus. I'd much prefer your input than your bowing out, in any case. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:53, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

There were at least three discussions about the plot summary section specifically on this page. I had started the 3rd one for some minor re-wording, but specifically asked for a lot of requests for comments via RFC, WikiProjects, etc, to help strengthen the obvious consensus for the section. I have to run to work right now, but it's all in the archives. If no one can find them I'll put up links when I get home. -- Ned Scott 19:30, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

• My two cents: It's perfectly ok to have a policy that doesn't quite fit the actual practice. In part because of this section of WP:NOT, there has been a consistent effort to minimize pages consisting solely of plot summaries, merge episode descriptions into well structured lists, make articles less crufty and so on. The general principle is sound and, as far as I can tell, fairly representative of consensus. It's not intended to call for the systematic destruction of all articles about TV show episodes and is rarely wielded in this way. Pascal.Tesson 21:26, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

One tangential comment. Misplaced Pages:Consensus reminds us that consensus is strengthened every time someone looks at something and doesn't object or change it. So the length of time (which I haven't looked into), that the clause has been present is relevant to whether or not there is consensus for it, especially if page/section is often read. GRBerry 21:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Yet, WP:CCC. The question is how much has it changed. --Farix (Talk) 04:03, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Coming to some clarity

Whether you think the plot summaries point should be removed from WP:NOT or left in, can we at least agree with one point? That is articles that are solely plot summaries are the kinds of articles we like to avoid. After all, we don't need things like the two dozen or so One Piece plot summary articles that were recently redirected. --Farix (Talk) 04:03, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

While I'm not sure that all people currently involved in the discussion agree, I do think that there is a wide consensus in the community in that respect. It comes up quite often in discussions and it is part of the basis for other guidelines and policies such as WP:FICT, WP:BK and so on. That is also the reason why I believe that this part of the policy should be kept: by and large it represents a sound principle that people like to rely on. That does not mean that we have to be radical about enforcing it: common sense dictates how we actually work with it in practice. Pascal.Tesson 04:48, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

We don't want them, but we don't want to discourage it, either. There's no deadline to finish an article here, y'know? If the only thing I can provide to a redlinked article is a plot summary to start, that shouldn't be abandoned immediately. --badlydrawnjeff talk 12:41, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Copied from Village pump

From Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)#Misplaced Pages is not solely for the summarising of plot?. Steve block Talk 08:58, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

So if you remove that clause then you are saying that articles containing only a plot summary should be OK? I think that's a poor thing to recommend. I mean we're going to get articles that have nothing buy a plot summary - and we might decide to let them slide on the grounds that maybe someone will come along and add more 'meat' to the article later - but to actually have policy that (in effect) encourages this style of article seems pretty poor to me. Am I misunderstanding what you are saying here? SteveBaker 20:37, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I've changed this to say "Raw plot summaries." - it better fits the description in the rest of the entry. Anyone else have any thoughts on this? --Random832(tc) 21:48, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah. I can't see what reason you could have for wanting to remove that very sensible clause. A plot summary is not a complete article. Can you imagine being assigned to write about Beowulf for a university, and handing in nothing but a summary of the plot? No mention of context, culture, meaning, language, just "he did this, he did this, he did this, the end?" That wouldn't be good enough for publication elsewhere, so why would it be suitable for Misplaced Pages? zadignose 23:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages Does Not Give Advice--Proposed Edit

Instruction manuals. While Misplaced Pages has descriptions of people, places, and things, Misplaced Pages articles should not include instructions or advice (legal, medical, or otherwise), suggestions, or contain "how-to"s.

I recommend editing this statement to note that Misplaced Pages does not preclude giving general safety information, i.e. when talking about viewing a solar eclipse I think Misplaced Pages should be allowed to state "Caution: Never look directly at the Sun using the naked eye, binoculars, or an unfiltered telescope. Doing so is dangerous and can cause permanent eye damage." Under the current edit this would be classified as medical advice. Cheers.--Burzum 14:10, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

No, there's no need for Misplaced Pages to state anything like that; see No Disclaimers for more information. Trebor 16:42, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Just to clarify something, the article solar eclipse already has a long section about the dangers of directly staring at a solar eclipse, with references. So that "caution" already exists in the article. Now whether or not you consider that as "medical advice", and therefore whether or not it fails WP:NOT, that's the question. Dugwiki 18:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I believe parts of the solar eclipse article are giving safety information. For example:

Contrary to popular belief, it is safe to observe the total phase of a solar eclipse directly with the unaided eye, binoculars or a telescope, when the Sun's photosphere is completely covered by the Moon; indeed, this is a very spectacular and beautiful sight, and it is too dim to be seen through filters. The Sun's faint corona will be visible, and even the chromosphere, solar prominences, and possibly even a solar flare may be seen. However, it is important to stop directly viewing the Sun promptly at the end of totality. The exact time and duration of totality for the location from which the eclipse is being observed should be determined from a reliable source.

Many people would consider this to also be giving advice (though I do not). I am trying to get this cleared up and hopefully useful passages like the one above can remain as well as more explicit warnings about the dangers of looking at a solar eclipse or other dangerous activity. Cheers.--Burzum 00:07, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Your no disclaimer template link was unhelpful and the warnings I suggest (not disclaimers) do not fall into any of the categories listed. A disclaimer is not the same thing as a safety warning because a disclaimer is there to protect the reader from the content of the article while a safety warning is not. A warning is also not medical advice in my opinion (though this is something on which I am facing debates which I am trying to clear up here). I agree that Misplaced Pages shouldn't be giving out medical advice, but that only means we shouldn't be saying "the best way to treat X disorder is with Y" or "you can diagnose X disorder with the following symptoms..." I think that saying "don't look at the Sun during a solar eclipse" is a wise addition in an article that explains how to view the Sun since so many people have been blinded by doing so improperly. Obviously other safety categories should apply as well.--Burzum 00:00, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

You'd actually be altering this statement to the opposite of what it currently says. An article about viewing solar eclipses should say "Viewing an eclipse without eye protection is likely to cause blindness , medical professionals have isssued warnings ," etc., not "Don't look into an eclipse without eye protection." We're a reference, not an instruction, and a warning is an instruction. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 21:49, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a "reading list" or a "collection of books"...

I'd would like to add the following to the heading Misplaced Pages is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files and make it Misplaced Pages is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, media files or reading lists :

5. Mere collections of books to read or a reading list. Books are an important resource to source material, but should not be added indiscriminately or for the sole purpose of promoting them. Misplaced Pages strives to have articles that have well-written informative content -- not articles with lists of books where interesting content can be found.

If there are no objections to the above... I'll add it in a few days. Re-write the above proposed wording at will. I look forward to any and all comments. Nephron  T|C 03:33, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

To be honest I'm a little unclear what this applies to. Do you have a link to a sample article that this would impact? Maybe once I see an example of what you mean I'll be able to form a more valid opinion. Dugwiki 16:49, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Although I would agree with the policy addition as proposed, I'm also unsure what kind of article/section it would refer to. Please clarify before adding AndrewRT(Talk) 22:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

• I've always been of the opinion that wikipedia is not a bibliography. I'd be happy to see something like this added to NOT. Agent 86 20:14, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Would it be appropriate, under this, to have a list of books by an author in the author's biography entry? Does that depend on any conditions? (Example conditions, "not a bare list free of internal links", or "so long as we have a short paragraph on the significance of each" or ....) GRBerry 21:35, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I would think that such an inclusion in an article about an author would not run afoul of anything, as it would be more than a "mere collection" of books. I think the topic under discussion are those articles that are nothing more than a directory of books. Agent 86 22:42, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

This should be merged with external links; bibliographies can be useful, but don't constitute articles on their own. Reading lists, like external links, should stick to specifically related, useful resources. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 22:48, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information

There is a proposed notability guideline at WP:NOTNEWS which seeks to expand on WP:NOT#IINFO. This proposed guideline seeks to exclude articles which are considered newsworthy but not permanently notable - e.g. the recent disappearance of two teenage girls which prompted widespread media coverage and hence plenty of independent verifiable citable sources.

I have suggested that the proposed guideline is combined with an addition to the examples section along these lines:

_______

9. Temporary news stories: Articles should not be written about stories which are temporarily newsworthy but are not of any lasting interest or significance. See also WP:NOTNEWS.

_______

Please could others comment on first whether they would support or oppose such an explicit exclusion and also on the suitable wording for inclusion here. Thanks AndrewRT(Talk) 22:58, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I might be ok with something like this except that WP:NOTNEWS is still being debated and doesn't have clear consensus yet on what form it might or might not take. Therefore it's still premature to include any references to it in policy. My suggestion is to wait until WP:NOTNEWS actually becomes a guideline of some sort with consensus, then reintroduce your proposal to mention it in WP:NOT. Dugwiki 23:08, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

So which comes first the policy or the guideline? I guess I tend to like heirarchies (which I guess is bound to lead to disappointment here :) ) but I prefer that the principle should be established first (and I think the best place for that is here) and then after that elaborated further in a more detailed guidleine. I take your point about not refering to a proposed guideline so I've struck that through and maybe add it in later if&when the guideline gets approved. AndrewRT(Talk) 23:14, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Technically it's probably possible to go either way, but I think it's probably more likely to succeed if you craft it as a guideline based on existing policies and the five pillars of Misplaced Pages, than work to introduce that guideline into policy. Trying to change the policy first is going to be more difficult because you would have to establish a stronger consensus for the change then if you try to form a guideline first. Dugwiki 23:19, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

The other point I almost forgot to mention is that if you discuss how to handle news articles here in policy, and also discuss it at WP:NOTNEWS, you're basically splitting the discussion into two places which might complicate things. It's probably better to keep the discussion of news events in one relatively centralized place, at least until you can get some agreement going there. Dugwiki 23:21, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

• I really like the principle behind this proposal. It could also be worded as "Misplaced Pages is not a newspaper. ... For a wiki that is a newspaper, visit our sister project WikiNews."
  I do have a concern about the subjectivity of the phrase "temporarily newsworthy" but I think we can work that out based on the emerging consensus on the drill-down page. Rossami (talk) 00:37, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

This is not accurate, and is far too subjective to be made policy. Look at the Pale Blue Dot. Everything in wikipedia documents events of mere temporary importance. A million years from now, even World War II will just be trivia. Misplaced Pages is not a newspaper mainly because it's not for firsthand reporting. We also don't cover single events in their own article because they're too narrow and any details we include would be trivial, but this is way too subjective a way to phrase it. Also, prohibitions on reporting on fresh news stories are not something that should be made policy, because we have plenty of articles about single news stories that develop as they happen. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 21:56, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

WP: NOT a directory

Does this principle apply to internal WP links? (concerning the dispute about the Management section of Aeroflot, see Talk:Aeroflot) Colchicum 21:21, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

While you might be able to apply some of the same rational and logic in some situations, I do not think that is what people had in mind when the NOT a directory section was added. The advice at Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (links)#Internal links is where they should be looking. -- Ned Scott 05:54, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

That being said, even if WP:NOT doesn't directly apply, it is a rather sloppy addition.. It's a style issue more than a policy thing. -- Ned Scott 05:57, 8 February 2007 (UTC)