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== Considerations ==

I have raised questions over some of the pages in the past, but I am trying to get some specificity here. Under ''Biological'' influences, there are pages for
* Neuroscientific
* Epigenetic
* Birth order
* Prenatal environment (which links to an article titled ''prenatal hormones and sexual orientation''???)

But, prenatal environment can obviously include immunological responses rather than just "prenatal hormones" as is implied by the actual article title. It's starting to look more and more like the majority of male homosexuality may be the result of immunological responses, since the antibody found in the fratenral birth order effect was more present in mothers of first born gay sons who had no older brothers (perhaps a thinner placenta leads to the maternal response having more power in such a first born). I've seen a lot of research out of Sweden indicating that first born sons are much more likely to pursue fields like engineering and politics, while later born sons are more likely to pursue art school and journalism (gay or straight)... and this often chalked up to 'parental investment of time' into first borns by sociologists... but really, it's likely that some portion of mens interest in masculine/feminine behaviors may also be the result of interplay between immunological responses and development. If all pregnant women began taking a drug which shielded developing fetuses from NLGN4Y Y-linked antibodies (in the hope of preventing a gay son), you'd likely start to see more 'feminine' traits in men disappear, and men on average would begin to skew much more to masculine/aggressive traits/behaviors. For many reasons, such a society would probably be hampered on creativity, trust, and maybe even fertility (given many heterosexual women opt for some level of femininity in men). I only put such theories here, which are supported by many scientists, as to explain how immune responses apply in a much larger way than was previously thought. This also means that FBOE very likely does apply to more than just gay men with older brothers (as is implied by boegart). Regions like Latin-America where historical birth rates were around 7 in the 1970's have a lot more homosexuality than regions like Scandinavia where birth rates sat at about 2 for the past 50 years, therefore immunological responses could explain the vast majority of gay men in such cultures... the 15-29% calculations apply to the mostly white/western datasets Blanchard had access to.

In addition, other immune responses (potentially involving blood groups) may have some explanation for other homosexuals and even lesbians (as i've mentioned before). My '''main question''' is to whether or not prenatal hormones is the correct title, or, if there needs to be a separate article for prenatal maternal immune responses?? I don't like how there are so many articles separated in general, but I feel simply having 'prenatal environment' (as it is titled under the sexual orientation infobox/sidebar) linking to a page specifically about prenatal hormones seems a little outdated/inaccurate.

I know it's annoying to have to restructure and reorganize. A '''side note '''and as and example, I've pointed out previously on this talk page, that opening with 'genes' is a little lackluster given genes have been a very disappointing field of investigation with regards to sexuality. I'd say it should be shifted below hormones or prenatal development... or maybe the article should begin with the basics of fetal development and sex-differentiation. As soon as you can grasp the fact that brain masculinization as a result of sex hormones begins at 8 weeks, it's rather easy for people to grasp how other genetic/hormonal/immunological components all play a role in that process and may effect whether one is androphilic, gynephilic or somewhere in between. ] (]) 00:33, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
:I edited the sidebar to match the article title. Otherwise, as you know, we are bound by the reliable secondary sources, which means we aren't on the cutting edge of the science (and scientists can't always tell in the midst of it all which avenues will pan out and which will be dead ends). With regard to 'prenatal maternal immune responses', as far as I know, the sources overwhelmingly talk about that in context of the FBOE, so I don't see the need for renaming or spinning out anything at this time. With regard to mentioning genes first, I believe we do this because the sources do, and they likely do it because ultimately, the very first thing someone starts out as is their genome, basically, with prenatal environmental effects happening after that. Yes, there is overlap between the different articles on the causes of sexual orientation. We'll chip away at improvements and discuss specifics as we go. <span style="font-family:Palatino">]</span> <sup>]</sup> 04:29, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
::Thanks, and no worries. I still think that hormones should come first. It comes first in the Bailey et al. 2016 review, and in my time reading a lot of Blanchard papers recently, he frequently makes an opening statement similar to (which was coauthored by a lot of researchers): "'''''As noted by Blanchard (2008), the maternal immune hypothesis does not challenge the long-standing theory that sexual orientation is primarily influenced via prenatal sex hormone exposure'''''", so I think that does underscore that neuroendrocrine/hormonal theory has and will continue to be the most relevant. In addition, Bogaert's 2018 puts prenatal hormones before genetics. ] (]) 09:57, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

== Discussion == == Discussion ==


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Discussion

Hi Flyer, I see what you mean. I only ordered it in that fashion because of the Bailey review, and since it sort of relates to hormonal exposure/brain masculinization (but I guess t lacks direct evidence of the cause) But we can change that. I’ll do a proposal soon. Sxologist (talk) 05:39, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Comment; the problem being that for example, there is a causes of trans sexuality article, but there is no central place for causes of sexual orientation in total, so it kind of lacks cohesion. But we can just move it down. Sxologist (talk) 05:39, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Trimming Biological differences

The 'Biological differences ...' section includes biomedical information cited to non-MEDRS sources. Any objections to a heavy trim? Firefangledfeathers (talk) 18:25, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

While badly cited, secondary sources cover quite a number of those things. Especially the Bailey et al. review from 2016 and LeVay's book. I would prefer using those and similar sources and cite those as replacements in most cases. Perhaps it could be tagged for now. Crossroads 22:28, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
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