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Revision as of 03:45, 26 January 2022 editLiz (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Checkusers, Oversighters, Administrators759,535 edits OneClickArchiver archived Saad Arshad Butt to Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive300← Previous edit Revision as of 03:46, 26 January 2022 edit undoLiz (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Checkusers, Oversighters, Administrators759,535 edits OneClickArchiver archived Cygnis insignis to Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive300Next edit →
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* *
*Indef blocked as a regular admin action, as the problem is more than one topic. See their talk page. ] - ] 02:41, 23 January 2022 (UTC) *Indef blocked as a regular admin action, as the problem is more than one topic. See their talk page. ] - ] 02:41, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
{{hab}}

==Cygnis insignis==
{{hat|96 hour block for 1RR and personal attacks. ] - ] 22:55, 19 January 2022 (UTC)}}

<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small>

===Request concerning Cygnis insignis===
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|My very best wishes}} 22:05, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Cygnis insignis}}<p>{{ds/log|Cygnis insignis}}</p>
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. --->

;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ]
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced --->

; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it :
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as ], or groundless or ] complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.-->
# - a revert on page ], user say in edit summary that "restore backdated ...". Hence, that was a revert, and they knew it.
# - this is a violation of 1RR restriction on the page
# (please note edit summary) - WP:NPA violation in response to polite advice/warning
# - false personal accusations

; Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any :
<!-- To the extent it may be relevant, link to previous sanctions such as blocks or topic bans.-->
ask me, no sanctions or topic bans on this or any other pages. ~ ] 22:35, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]):
<!-- The following are examples. Write "Not applicable" or similar if this is not a discretionary sanctions enforcement request. Otherwise, fill out at least one line that applies and delete the rest. If you wish to request discretionary sanctions but none of these situations apply, issue an alert yourself instead of making this request, see the link above. -->
*The user was given a notification

; Additional comments by editor filing complaint :
I am not sure if 1RR violation alone would justify this request, but the comments and behavior by this user are highly confrontational, including diffs 3 and 4 above and their removal of comments made by other contributors , removing their own signature , edit warring about tag date (diffs 1 and 2) etc.

; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested :
<!-- Please notify the user against whom you request enforcement of the request (you may use {{subst:AE-notice|thread name}}), and then replace this comment with a diff of the notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise. -->
Here

<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. --->

===Discussion concerning Cygnis insignis===
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. <br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small>
====Statement by Cygnis insignis====
I did restore that, noting the warning about 1rr within 24 hours above the edit window and reckoned that I hadn't. I then mentioned this in an active discussion on the tag, those opposing its presence also objected to an indication of how long synth concerns had existed (which spun off to two or three sections as things do on that talk). After a substantive period of time, with no further edits to that page by me, the user thought to undertake a sanction process. I am also currently involved in discussion with this account on the Abortion article's talk page, where their concerns are as creepy and bizarre as their username. And how are you? Have a lovely day, wont you? ~ ] 22:21, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
:Any editor in good standing can query the edits I made, including those assembled by trolling and baiting for this purpose. ~ ] 22:29, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

====Statement by (username)====
<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. -->

===Result concerning Cygnis insignis===
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.''
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. -->
*This is extremely cut and dry, I don't see a long drawn out process being needed. 72 block for 1RR, another 24 hours for the personal attacks. ] - ] 22:36, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
{{hab}} {{hab}}


Revision as of 03:46, 26 January 2022

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    Lokeshwaran V R

    Indef blocked as a standard admin action. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 02:43, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Lokeshwaran V R

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    DaxServer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 12:47, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Lokeshwaran V R (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/India-Pakistan
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. Move log Most of the moves were reverted back to their original location, per WP:COMMONNAME
    2. 05:20, 3 January 2022 Move after my final warning on 29 December 2021
    3. 13:00, 14 January 2022 Same as above
    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

    n/a

    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    The user has a long history of not abiding to the naming conventions. See move log. The talk page is full of warnings and discussions on this particular topic: WP:COMMONAME, Article title, Article moves, December 2021, Page moves. Almost all of the moves, if not every, doesn't have a move summary as to why the move is made by the user. This long-lasting moves against the naming policy suggests the user has no understanding the policy itself. I'd request an indefinite move ban within the topics of India, broadly construed.

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Notified

    Discussion concerning Lokeshwaran V R

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Lokeshwaran V R

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning Lokeshwaran V R

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

    in re Sushant Singh Rajput

    Protected talk page as a standard admin action. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:33, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    Request concerning Sushant Singh Rajput

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Jéské Couriano (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    WP:Requests for arbitration/India-Pakistan#Standard discretionary sanctions, WP:Requests for arbitration/Editing of Biographies of Living Persons#May 2014
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    This is a very unorthodox request, to be sure, but the situation is such that the alternative is just spamming RFPP every few months and the standard AE template is of absolutely no use to me. I'm seeking to make the current 500/30 on Sushant Singh Rajput · ( talk | logs | history | links | watch ) · - presently set to expire in 2024 - indefinite and to likewise indefinitely semi-protect the talk page of the article.

    Since Rajput died by hanging in June 2020 the article's been facing cyclical disruption from drive-by IP editors who are pushing conspiracy theories, fed mainly by right-wing Indian media, that he was murdered by his girlfriend or someone else who was/is part of either of their inner circles. (Reliable sources report that it was suicide, based on the initial autopsy and a review of that autopsy.) Every time the article proper is unprotected, IPs/unregistered users quickly come in and reintroduce content in support of this conspiracy theory. The issue is less pronounced on the talk page but still present, in that every few months we get a surge of drive-by IPs demanding we add the conspiracy theory material in meritless edit requests, ignoring an FAQ written and pinned at the top of the page. Because of the nature of the disruption, editor-level sanctions are not viable as an option to stem the tide, since the IPs make their edit and never show up again, making sanctioning them directly moot.

    While content about Rajput specifically will lose BLP protections in June, there is no guarantee that the conspiracymongering - which, again, focuses on people who are still alive - will stop at that point, especially given Rajput's family members have stirred the pot a couple of times, triggering another surge every time.

    Again, I apologise for the grossly nonstandard template, but it is not built to request page-level sanctions in a situation where the users themselves are drive-bys.

    Discussion concerning Sushant Singh Rajput

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning Sushant Singh Rajput

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • I'm...sorta-involved here from an administrative perspective? I've handed out a few of the SSR-related page protections. I would be willing to carry out these requests as a normal administrative action. I think applying existing DS here are a bit of a stretch, and with the persistent disruption I think these actions are entirely warranted. Part of this, of course, stems from my general reluctance to use DS when normal admin actions are already justified. Will hold off for a while to hear what other folks have to say. GeneralNotability (talk) 22:25, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
    • DS is a stretch. In fact, BLP should be considered expired and the template on the talk page removed, if not now, by June when it will be 2 years since his death, the maximum we extend BLP protection. I can see semiprotecting the talk page as a standard admin action, although given the traffic, that is a little extreme but would likely stand up to scrutiny. 1 year max, 6 months would be much easier to justify the use of the admin tools. If EC is already good for 2 more years, we absolutely can't extend that, there is zero justification. The expiration is simply so far in the future, we can't predict what the traffic will be like in two years. You need to bring it up when it is about to expire. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:03, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
    The talk page has been protected before, so I went and protected it for 6 months as a regular admin action. When it expires, if there are more problems, you don't need to ask at WP:AE to get it reviewed. You can ask me directly on my talk page, or WP:RFPP, or any uninvolved admin. At this time, that's all we can do, but it should be enough. And as for your format and confusion, it's fine, no worries. It isn't always obvious where to go or how to format. Leaving open in case another admin has a comment. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 02:19, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

    Devesh.bhatta

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Devesh.bhatta

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Hemantha (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 08:10, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Devesh.bhatta (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/India-Pakistan
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    Source (my bolding) - "... Mughal ruler Babur who ordered its construction in 1500s. Hindu tradition maintains that the mosque was built on the site of a Hindu temple destroyed by the Mughals
    Edit The prominent hindu temple was demolished by Mughal commander Mir Baqi under the orders of Babur – the first Mughal emperor, who then constructed the Babri mosque.. Searching the book fails to show any mention of Mir Baqi anywhere in it.
    Source only says Officials privately admit ... as many of the accused belonged to the influential "khadim" (caretaker) families of the dargah (of Moinuddin Chishti), as do all others available.
    Their two edits (my bolding) - Main accused Farooq Chishtee was descendant of Moinuddin Chishti
    • On Tablighi Jamaat - bulldozing of source's very careful, nuanced wording to imply link between Jamaat and covid spread. One sentence added as is from the source.
    Source An increasing number of people in Kyrgyzstan are calling on the government to review its policy on religious organizations and learn more about the activities of Tablighi Jamaat
    Edit Kyrgyzstani People called on the government to ban Tablighi Jamaat.
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    The listed instances are just from this past month after DS notice was given. There is more instances of reckless sourcing from before for which I had, politely and later forcefully, asked them to be more careful. There was no response or an attempt at cleanup, but they have also not tried to restore my reverts yet. But their slow edit war at Krishna Janmasthan Temple Complex and a continued misrepresentation of sources show that their contributions in this topic area are to push a POV, not to improve articles.

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Notice_of_Arbitration_Enforcement_noticeboard_discussion

    Discussion concerning Devesh.bhatta

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Devesh.bhatta

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning Devesh.bhatta

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    At this point, I'm inclined to agree with Johnuniq's comment below, and would support. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:44, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

    Grandmaster

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Grandmaster

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Armatura (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:04, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Grandmaster (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 19:49, 16 January 2022 pushes outrageous website EPRESS.AM to prove his point that "even Armenian media makes analogies with nuclear weapons" for Agdam. The fact the "article" does not even have an author, that it is copy paste of unknown person's delusionary Facebook post, that it contains passages like "nomadic barbarian-vampires" and "they deserve this, I have f****d the city and the Turks' mother" about Azerbaijanis and that the whole website is a trash can with no editorial oversight or domain registration details, full of extreme profanity like "caught when jerking" or "I'd f***ed your mothers" does not worry Grandmaster. He does not want to hear, and keeps beating the dead horse again and again, and once again in ANI, by saying  he just “quoted epress.am just to show that the analogy with devastation by nuclear weapons is used by Armenian media too.” , then accusing me for “making so much drama over one news link posted at a talk page, and bringing it to this board.” Such an "article" with racial remarks towards Azeris/Turks would not be normally tolerated another time, yet since it supports his “even Armenian media uses Hiroshima” POV, he isn’t bothered.
    2. 17:02, 16 January 2022 Grandmaster turns a blind eye on pro-Azeri propaganda; he won't see why Azerbaijani president's aid Hikmet Hajijev's "this is Hiroshima" phrase applied to literally all cities damaged in 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war, in front of BBC camera, constitutes propaganda; on the contrary, he justifies it by saying it is because every settlement in 7 districts that were under Armenian occupation "looks like Hiroshima... What is propaganda here?"... and "BBC report shows the town of Jabrayil that looks like another, smaller Hiroshima".
    3. 13 January 2022Grandmaster uses double standards, putting undue weight on "Armenianness" of the source, giving it undue weight, by downplaying Armenian village head's quote about Azeri president origin despite it was cited by neutral RS", or overplaying it like in Epress.am example above, depending on what better suits POV-pushing.
    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
    1. En Wiki block log previous 10 blocks in English Misplaced Pages, mostly in AA topic
    2. Ru Wiki block log previous 10 blocks in Russian Misplaced Pages, again mostly in AA topic
    3. 29 May 2010 RU AE case - 6-month ban on Russian Misplaced Pages for leading the meatpuppetry Anti-Armenian group of a dozen Azerbaijani editors, some of which still support Grandmaster in discussions on English Misplaced Pages.
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    • Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    Grandmaster has veteran experience of POV-pushing with extensive history of blocks in Armenia-Azerbaijan topic in two Wikipedias. The provided diffs are just a few recent examples to show he has not changed but learned how to avoid bans by WP:CPUSH-ing as shown in diffs above. I think he is there not as much as to build encyclopedia, but to advance official Azerbaijan' positions on Misplaced Pages, in a nationalist mood, prohibited by WP:ADVOCACY. He is apparently unable contribute neutrally in topics he has ethnic conflict of interest with, hence I believe a topic ban from AA area, broadly construed (including Turkey and Turkic world), for at least 1 year, is required to help to sober him up, while allowing him to edit in topics he does not have conflict of interest with. I was advised by admins Rosguill and Robert McClenon to take the case from ANI to AE, and so I did.

    UPDATE 25.01.2022 Grandmaster worryingly changed his replies here

    1. 00:49, 24 January 2022
    2. 01:18, 24 January 2022
    3. 01:31, 24 January 2022
    4. 15:15, 24 January 2022
    5. 16:43, 24 January 2022
    6. 10:17, 25 January 2022
    7. 18:16, 25 January 2022

    When this violation of talk page guidelines was noted by an opponent, he resented till another user notes the violation

    Worryingly, Grandmaster now glorifies Epressa.am as a reliable example of Armenian media, to prove a point, despite what he refers to is not even an article by a journalist but a text of an unknown person' Facebook rave with an attention seeking FRINGE title “Did we (Armenians) drop hydrogen bomb on Agdam and Zangilan?”. Not sure about 2014 award, but that website is apparently hacked and vandalised, everyone can see the sheer random nonsense posted there: 1 2. --Armatura (talk) 20:38, 25 January 2022 (UTC)


    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Notified on talk page by standart alert.

    Discussion concerning Grandmaster

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Grandmaster

    This is already 4th report filed on me by Armatura. Such persistence in filing frivolous reports one after another indicates that this user is engaged in WP:Witchhunt. Previously Armatura joined now banned user Steverci to accuse me of various things, but that report was dismissed as retaliatory. Then he filed a 3RR report on me , which was dismissed without action, and he did it when I reported a banned IP user, so it appears to be another retaliatory report. After that he filed a report on WP:ANI, asking to ban me: So this is the report # 4, which for the most part repeats the report at WP:ANI.

    Regarding Agdam, one can see that Armatura started the latest discussion by bringing up a BBC report that has no relevance to the city of Agdam, to support his claim that the term "Hiroshima of Caucasus" is used as propaganda by Azerbaijan (BBC says nothing like that, btw). But as was demonstrated by myself and other users, the term Hiroshima of Caucasus is used not just by Azerbaijan, but it was coined by British journalist and political analyst Thomas de Waal, and is used by mainstream international media such as Euronews, France24, AP, The independent, and even Armenian reporter for IWPR. I quoted epress.am just to show that the analogy with devastation by nuclear weapons is used by Armenian media too. I did not propose to include it into the article. In fact, Armatura's claiming that the term Hiroshima of Caucasus is propaganda after it was demonstrated that it originated outside of Azerbaijan and is used by media all over the world is tendentious editing in itself.

    Then he accuses me of removing claims of an village head about late president of Azerbaijan allegedly concealing his place of birth for political reasons, but how qualified is a villager to make judgements about the motives of the Soviet leadership? Even if it is reported by a reliable source, it does not make the claims of a man in the street reliable or notable. But I only removed that line once, and when Armatura restored it, I left it at that. There was no edit war, or anything of the kind. I just tried to attract attention to questionability of that claim, per WP:BRD.

    Regarding my blocks in en:wiki, as you can see, they are from 15 years ago, and incident at Russian wiki is from 12 years ago, and has nothing to do with en:wiki.

    Per WP:Boomerang, I think the admins need to look at Armatura's own activity. Armatura repeatedly violated WP:AGF and WP:Civil, making personal attacks and incivil comments every time I try to have a polite discussion with him. For example, in his report at WP:ANI, he accuses me of having a "narrow vision in which Armenians are "the bad guys"", which clearly is a bad faith assumption. In this report here, he accuses me of "advancing official Azerbaijan' positions on Misplaced Pages, in a nationalist mood", with no credible evidence whatsoever, which is again not in line with WP:AGF. How civil is it to write to another editor: do not test the patience of other editors with nonsense, it may be viewed as trolling? Here he told me: Because you simply refuse to understand when I explain anything, in a nihilistic fashion Bad faith assumption like this, when he accused me of not reacting to another user's erroneous closure of RFC, even though Armatura was explained by a Misplaced Pages admin that he cannot hold against someone not doing something: Another bad faith assumption at the same page: Here he demands from me "repentance", which he would "perhaps accept"? As was noted by an uninvolved user at WP:ANI, Armatura WP:BLUDGEONs the discussion by arguing with my every vote and every comment, . You may wish to check Talk:2020 Nagorno-Karabakh ceasefire agreement and Talk:Agdam#RfC_for_"Hiroshima_of_Caucasus" to get the full picture of my interactions with this user.

    Previously, Armatura was placed on interaction ban with another user: .

    In sum, Armatura has difficulties with keeping it cool when engaging in discussions with other editors, which is why admins may wish to see if editing such a contentious topic as Armenia-Azerbaijan relations is something that he should be allowed to do. His behavior creates nervous and unhealthy atmosphere.

    Rosguill, please note that I only cited epress.am once, at the talk page of Agdam. I made no further reference to that source. Every other mention was in response to Armatura, who brought it up again at his talk page and ANI. Also, the article was not nationalist, quite the contrary, it was critical of those people who made racist comments about Azerbaijani people and justified destruction of Azerbaijani cities. Armatura takes words out of context, but context is important. The author does not endorse racist attitudes, but protests them. Also, Misplaced Pages has no censorship, and profanity is not forbidden.

    Regarding epress.am, it is certainly not a nationalist publication. Some information about them could be found here And here is an interview with its chief editor, who says that his publication is against nationalism, militarism, homophobia and violence. It won Free Media Awards in 2014. If you check English Misplaced Pages, it is used a lot in Armenia related articles. Grandmaster 21:53, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

    Once again, epress was not proposed to be used as a reference in the article. It was only linked once at the talk page in the discussion, as an example of a term usage, and that news-site is used as a reference in dozens of articles about Armenia in Misplaced Pages. If it is not acceptable, the issue should be taken to WP:RSN, to designate it as deprecated, and stop its usage in Misplaced Pages. I don't think that a simple mention at talk is such a big issue as to demand someone to be banned or sanctioned. I changed some of my comments here to save space, as I was advised I need to keep it short. Grandmaster 21:53, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

    ZaniGiovanni:

    1. 1st diff, which should be this, Billion was quoted by France24, a major French news outlet. I used this quote on OSCE Minsk Group, not Armenian genocide. If France24 considers him a leading French expert on OSCE Minsk Group, I don't see why we cannot quote him.
    2. 2nd diff, I trimmed a large unnecessary quote, most of which was about Lezgins, and I kept only the part that was about Talysh, because the article is about Talysh, not Lezgins. The only info about Talysh there was that their number could be understated, and that remained.
    3. 3rd diff, I only provided official Azerbaijani position on that issue. Whether that position is right or wrong, it needs to be presented too, per WP:Balance. We cannot write an article without reflecting the official position of one of the warring sides, with proper attribution, which I made.

    Additional comments.

    1. 1st diff, Billion does not share Azerbaijani view, other international experts are also skeptical about future of the Minsk Group.
    2. 2nd diff, I don't think Cornell is generally a good source here, as he is referring to private conversations with some people. But what he wrote about Talysh is there.
    3. 3rd diff, EU parliament was already mentioned. Even if official Azerbaijani position is disputed, it still needs to be reflected, with attribution, according to the rules.


    Grandmaster 17:06, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

    Statement by Dennis Brown

    Grandmaster, you are over the word limit by over 100 words. You need to trim it down a bit if you expect to reply again. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 01:13, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

    Ok, will do. Grandmaster 01:15, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
    Is it ok now, or more trimming needed? Grandmaster 01:19, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
    If you look above, the limit is supposed to be 500 words total, which is often overlooked if you don't push it too far, but just be aware, that's all. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 12:24, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
    Ok, thanks a lot. Grandmaster 13:30, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

    Statement by ZaniGiovanni

    Since the ANI discussion, I was thinking wheter the suggested AE case would be opened or not, as there are other diffs of Grandmaster's POV pushing that weren't discussed. I believe as an involved party with the previous case, I should add my input. Some recent edits by Grandmaster that I believe weren't posted in either of noticeboards:

    • diff 1 - Grandmaster adds Didier Billion as a source which supports Azerbaijani point-of-view. Billion is an Armenian genocide denier, (link). Billion trivializes genocide as "events" . He's essentially a Turkish lobbiest, . This isn’t the first time Grandmaster added an Armenian genocide denier as a source, see diff of him adding Christopher Gunn, another denialist.
    • diff 2 - Huge WP:ALLEGED violation. Grandmaster removed any mention of the government falsifying records and just attributed it to belief.
    • diff 3 - Grandmaster added WP:UNDUE Azerbaijani POV that a group of Armenian prisoners of war from 2020 Karabakh War were apparently a “saboteur group”. Even the Eurasianet source he cited casts a lot of doubt on them being labeled as saboteurs. It reveals one of the “saboteurs” is actually a civilian. And it also quotes an Armenian human rights activist saying they were taken as hostages. Yet another example of Grandmaster only citing what benefits his agenda and giving it a huge undue weight. Notable to add that the European Parliament source in the article states:
      • “whereas credible reports have been made that Armenian service personnel and civilians have also been taken prisoner since the cessation of hostilities on 10 November 2020; whereas the Azerbaijani authorities claim that these hostages and prisoners are terrorists and do not deserve POW status under the Geneva Convention;”
      • “whereas Azerbaijani forces detained these civilians even though there was no evidence that they posed any security threat that could justify their detention under international humanitarian law;”

    I'm not an admin, I don't know what appropriate measures are against users in such cases. As someone involved in the ANI discussion, I wanted to share the problematic edits of Grandmaster I've noticed recently. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 02:24, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

    • 1st diff, which should be this, Billion was quoted by France24, a major French news outlet. I used this quote on OSCE Minsk Group, not Armenian genocide. If France24 considers him a leading French expert on OSCE Minsk Group, I don't see why we cannot quote him.
    As I said, this isn't the first time you used "not Armenian genocide" defense when called out on your sources. You said the same thing about Christopher Gunn, another denialist, "This article is not about genocide". I struggle to understand how you don't get the point here, so I'll make an analogy: Do you think if someone is a holocaust denier, calls holocaust "events", says "JEWISH DIASPORA SHOULD LEAVE LIVING IN THE PAST” (he published an article about Armenian diaspora ), they can be considered credible on issues related to Jewish people?
    I don't think so, but maybe you'll defend him again, as it seems like when your view is challenged, you go extra defensive missing the point entirely. And btw, unsurprisingly, Didier Billion takes the Turkish/Azerbaijani point of view regarding Minsk Group, and has articles published about himself and his views in pro-Turkish government paper Daily Sabah , denies the Armenian genocide, etc. Do you honestly not see the conflict of interest here?
    • 2nd diff, I trimmed a large unnecessary quote, most of which was about Lezgins, and I kept only the part that was about Talysh, because the article is about Talysh, not Lezgins. The only info about Talysh there was that their number could be understated, and that remained.
    2 sentences hardly counts as a "large unnecessary quote", this was a complete exaggeration by you used to embellish your point. The Lezgins part is there because in the next sentence, author directly makes the comparison to Talyshs, and how Azerbaijani government denies figures for both ethnic groups, "These figures are denied by the Azerbaijani government but in private many Azeris acknowledge the fact that Lezgins – for that matter Talysh or the Tat population of Azerbaijan is far higher than the official figure." (Cornell, Svante E. Small Nations and Great Powers. Routledge (UK), 2001. p.269). You also didn't explain why you attributed Cornell's words to “belief”.
    • 3rd diff, I only provided official Azerbaijani position on that issue. Whether that position is right or wrong, it needs to presented too, per WP:Balance. We cannot write an article without reflecting the official position of one of the warring sides, with proper attribution, which I made.
    I re-checked the source you cited just to be clear, and have a couple of things to say. Firstly, that Eurasianet article concluded that the POWs even included a civilian among them, so the Azeri position of "sabotage group" is UNDUE and clear propaganda. And interestingly, somehow, you failed to include this information in your edit at all. On top of that, as I already said, the European Parliament source disproves the Azeri version, solidifying that it's UNDUE. Again, you cited only what benefited your agenda ignoring rest of the source, and gave it huge UNDUE weight. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 16:32, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
    On one hand, you still defend Billion and somehow don't see his conflict of interest after all the material I provided. On the other hand, you say "I don't think Cornell is generally a good source here", when in reality, Svante Cornell, being a Swedish scholar, specializing on politics and security issues in Eurasia, South Caucasus, Turkey, and Central Asia, being published by Routledge, one of the most respectable academic publications, is more than a good source here.
    Regarding the POWs, you missed my point. I think I've explained myself very clearly already, and I know the EU Parliament source was included in the article, I said it myself in the opening statement. What any of this has to do with you citing disproven propaganda and giving it UNDUE weight? I think I've said it all, I'll leave it for admins to judge my points, as this is getting increasingly repetitive and long. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 17:40, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

    Result concerning Grandmaster

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • Having only reviewed the main diffs presented by Armatura and immediate context, it's hard to see the repeated invocation of epress.am as representative of Armenian media as anything other than disruptive; the assertion by Armatura that these are ultra-nationalist ravings with no significant editorial oversight or cachet appears correct. I'm less inclined to see the other two diffs as sanctionable, and am unimpressed by their inclusion in this report. I haven't yet read through Grandmaster's response and boomerang case at this time. signed, Rosguill 00:42, 24 January 2022 (UTC)