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June 2021

Points to note:

1. Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made;
2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. Elizium23 (talk) 14:40, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

OK - you reverted my edit to begin with. But thanks for leaving the citation to the original source which I made - some clarity there. This is well beyond wikipedia and I've no interest in arguing with wiki editor(s) who think Miles was a devout Catholic. Thelisteninghand (talk) 15:34, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Thelisteninghand, don't put words in my mouth: that's not what I believe. But I believe in summarizing the reliable secondary sources which we have available, and not second-guessing them based on flimsy evidence and WP:SYNTH. That's beyond our pay grade. Elizium23 (talk) 15:38, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Elizium23 It's all about sources I agree. Apologies for putting 'words in your mouth'. This is complicated, nuanced. Since you have issued this warning please read the following carefully. Here is what a Member of the Order of Malta is:

"While members of the Order of Malta in former times traditionally belonged to the aristocracy, the emphasis today is on a nobility of spirit and conduct. The 13,500 Knights and Dames of the Order of Malta remain true to its inspiring principles, summarised in the motto “Tuitio Fidei et Obsequium Pauperum” – nurturing, witnessing and protecting the faith and serving the poor and the sick – which become reality through humanitarian projects and social assistance in 120 countries. Members must demonstrate dedication to these principles and are admitted country-by-country through Priories and national Associations.

The three Classes According to the Constitution, the members of the Order of Malta are divided into three Classes. The members are to conduct their lives in an exemplary manner in conformity with the teachings and precepts of the Catholic Church and to devote themselves to the assistance activities of the Order.

Members of the First Class are Knights of Justice, or Professed Knights, and the Professed Conventual Chaplains, who have made vows of “poverty, chastity and obedience aspiring to perfection according to the Gospel”. They are religious according to Canon Law but are not obliged to live in community.

The members of the Second Class, by virtue of the Promise of Obedience, are committed to living according to Christian principles and the inspiring principles of the Order. They are subdivided into three categories: – Knights and Dames of Honour and Devotion in Obedience – Knights and Dames of Grace and Devotion in Obedience – Knights and Dames of Magistral Grace in Obedience

The Third Class consists of lay members who do not profess religious vows or the Promise, but who live according to the principles of the Church and of the Order. They are divided into six categories: – Knights and Dames of Honour and Devotion – Conventual Chaplains ad honorem – Knights and Dames of Grace and Devotion – Magistral Chaplains – Knights and Dames of Magistral Grace – Donats (male and female) of Devotion"

Please also see the statement 2012 from the Holy See about 'copycats'

I bring both of these to your attention - please take the time to absorb - because of the conflict between this and page 388 of Miles Davis The Autobiography which says this "..I was knighted and inducted into the Knights of Malta - or to use their formal name, The Knights of the Grand Cross in and for the Sovereign Military Hospitaler Order of St. John of Jerusalem of Rhodes and of Malta" This is not the formal name of the SMOM. The Knights of the Grand Cross are the British honorific order and not connected to the SMOM. The term 'in and for' sounds contemporary. Miles continues "I have to admit that I don't know what all those words in the orders name actually mean.." He is clear that he does not know what the order is. Then "I was also told that I was chosen for this honor because I have class, because I'm a genius. The only thing they asked of me is not to be prejudiced against any person and to continue to do what I do.." so he swore no oath, and does not in any way conform to the requirements of honour, devotion and obedience required by the Order. He's not Catholic. 'Hospitaller' is misspelt. 'Saint' is abbreviated. I don't what else I can do - this is not actually OR - My edit gave clarity by citing the original words (there is no other source for this besides Miles Davis, there are not multiple reliable sources because they all cite this book) and removing the wikification of 'The Knights of Malta" both of which are now reverted. I think it's possible that the claim should be removed altogether as per https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Verifiability#Exceptional_claims_require_exceptional_sources It is patently false and any encyclopedia would seek citation from the SMOM. The claim is not published on Brittannica's brief biog.

Lastly I wonder if you can indicate how this warning works moving forward. thanksThelisteninghand (talk) 20:53, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Addendum: There is a further problem in that Alhambra Palace is Islamic and not a site listed by The SMOM List of Knights Hospitaller sitesThelisteninghand (talk) 14:15, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

1. https://www.orderofmalta.int/sovereign-order-of-malta/knights-of-malta/
2. https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/it/bollettino/pubblico/2012/10/16/0585/01330.html
3. https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Miles/xgAVXHhuNYgC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=miles+davis+autobiography+ebook+free&printsec=frontcover
4. https://www.britannica.com/biography/Miles-Davis

Re: Davis' knighthood

		The Socratic Barnstar
		For your skill and eloquence in asking the important questions, as well as your patience in the sometimes disappointing responses. You are appreciated. isento (talk) 20:46, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Thank you.

Elizium23 has now called me an asshole twice, asked me "what the fuck" is "wrong with me", and accused me of both casting aspersions and being close-minded about policy and other arguments, when they in bold wrote that it doesn't matter whether it's an exception claim. That talk page is turning into the twilight zone, man. isento (talk) 01:20, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

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Andriessen

What fact would you suggest to highlight about Andriessen's opera? I had little time, and it was the last day to nominate. The "hook" was more or less a placeholder. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:56, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

There is nothing to highlight. The composer's life contains more interesting work and events. The article does not meet the other DYK criteria in any case.Thelisteninghand (talk) 15:43, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Teahouse talkback: you've got messages!

August thanks

Yesterday I had two interesting DYK (I think, one of a new opera I saw), and the day before was at a concert with Daniel Barenboim just playing piano, and afterwards he and the orchestra received last year's prize (pictured). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:50, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Minor thing

There's no point in adding ~~~~ to an edit summary, that's just for talkpages. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:52, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

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—PaleoNeonate – 19:35, 30 January 2022 (UTC)