Talk:The Suicide Squad (film): Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 19:13, 26 January 2022 editBuh6173 (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users1,869 edits →"Squad" capitalization"← Previous edit		Revision as of 06:35, 3 February 2022 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk \| contribs)Bots, Template editors2,295,419 editsm Archiving 1 discussion(s) to Talk:The Suicide Squad (film)/Archive 2) (botNext edit →
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	== "Unnecessary Bit Of Trivia" ==

	I have no issue with Prefall reverting my changes, but you might want to take a look at the rest of the article - especially the amount of information devoted to casting rumours that were later debunked and critical reaction to trailers. ] (]) 13:26, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
	:The casting process and commentary on the trailers are both standard parts of film articles in line with ] and are not at all the same thing as the trivia that you added. - ] (]) 20:57, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
	I take your point Adamstom, it isn't the same thing. All the information in this article as it stands is relevant - indeed "standard" - and this entry is not bloated with unnecessary trivia. I was especially interested to read about the motto on Harley's jacket in the cast section, amongst the many, many other relevant details. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 10:06, 3 January 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:Well I'm glad we could sort that out then. - ] (]) 10:37, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

	== Viewership Figures ==		== Viewership Figures ==

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This article has been viewed enough times in a single year to make it into the Top 50 Report annual list. This happened in 2021, when it received 10,864,812 views.

This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report 6 times. The weeks in which this happened:

Viewership Figures

Wouldn't a chart or table read better than "in its first week/in it's third week/in the seventh week it plummeted to..."-style prose? 2A02:C7F:E873:B200:ADE1:86C:A0A7:156D (talk) 08:07, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

I think the fact that most of those weeks don't have anything all that noteworthy happening in them suggests that we just don't need to list data for each week like that. I have gone ahead and removed the weeks where nothing significant happened and have re-written the sections to present the information in less of a 'this week/then this week/then this week' kind of way. - adamstom97 (talk) 08:05, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Adamstom.97 Seems to me you've taken it upon yourself to decide what's notable and non-notable. How a movie is performing in the US is absolutely notable. We don't get exact numbers so in that case rankings act as substitute. AbsolutelyFiring (talk) 02:27, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

A week-by-week breakdown of viewership rankings is not encyclopaedic or useful to readers and definitely not a common inclusion at film articles. Just like with the box office, where I also removed some minor week-by-week info, we need to stick to the key, noteworthy milestones and format it in an accessible way so the article doesn't become a list of facts that are only significant to someone who follows the box office or streaming numbers each week. PVOD data also does not belong in the streaming viewership section as that is specifically talking about the film's initial HBO Max viewership as an equivalent to box office numbers. - adamstom97 (talk) 05:07, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

So where does it belong? AbsolutelyFiring (talk) 06:09, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Unless there is something noteworthy or out-of-the-ordinary about it, not on Misplaced Pages. - adamstom97 (talk) 07:01, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

So the performance of a film isn't notable? AbsolutelyFiring (talk) 08:57, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

It's not notable unless reliable secondary sources consider it notable. DonQuixote (talk) 12:37, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Overall performance is certainly notable. Breaking it down to a granular level, such as daily or even weekly in some cases, can be considered extreme and insignificant in the grand scheme of things. So in addition to having at least one reliable, secondary source reporting it, we would need to analyze just how many are actually picking up on it. If it's only 1 or 2 sources out of hundreds, then it's probably an insignificant detail. Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion. Do you have sources you'd like to share to backup the claim it's significant? Also it would be helpful if someone would post a sample of the content that is being excluded here so others can weigh in. --GoneIn60 (talk) 17:04, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Please see this diff for my edit where I removed lists of week-by-week viewership rankings from the home media and streaming viewership sections. I tried to just keep the key facts and refocus the sections on prose and commentary. I think this is a good example of applying WP:NOTSTATS. - adamstom97 (talk) 19:05, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Yet again it seems you're deciding by yourself what matters or don't. Rankings aren't anything confusing. And not seeking any consensus at all. Anyway can you please at least stop removing my clarification that the home media sales mentioned are just for the United States? Because a reader who doesn't know Misplaced Pages's policies wouldn't know which country's sales are being mentioned. AbsolutelyFiring (talk) 06:19, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Stop trying to make it out like I am making unilateral decisions and going against consensus. I made my intentions clear here at the talk page and am participating in the ongoing discussion. You are the one trying to restore your edits while the discussion is still taking place. And Misplaced Pages policies have nothing to do with this, I was just pointing out that it is unnecessary to put "the United States" as clarification when we are already only talking about the United States. Now, you are still yet to justify why including all of this granular data doesn't violate WP:INDISCRIMINATE. - adamstom97 (talk) 06:50, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Just want to point out that the overall point being made is that encyclopedic articles summarize the most relevant aspects of their subjects. They are not meant to be an exhaustive listing of numbers, statistics, and other granular details. That's what databases are for. So it's a valid concern that on Misplaced Pages, we want to balance the crucial with the trivial, allowing just enough in but not too much. One way we can show that something leans more crucial than it does trivial, is by looking at the sources. When multiple, high-quality sources are talking about something, then we probably should be too. WP:NPOV helps explain this in more detail. From the diff link adamstom97 posted, it does appear that the Home media and Streaming viewership sections were consuming too much space and were therefore running into concerns of WP:UNDUE.As for the "United States" clarification, I'll defer to the others, but on the surface it seems fine to keep, even if it is a bit redundant. --GoneIn60 (talk) 07:13, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Adam, you haven't once tried to get any consensus on anything. Regardless since GoneIn60 agrees with you and it's a useless arguement, I'll let it go. But can you tell me how exactly a person will know only US sales are being talked about when there is no clarification at all that we are talking about the US only? AbsolutelyFiring (talk) 07:24, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Cast listing in the infobox

Bluerules, adamstom97, JDDJS, El Millo

Would one of you kindly advise how to handle this proposal by LRP19PT? Perhaps one of you could use your knowledge of what was discussed previously and apply it here with an explanation as to why this should or should not be changed. I didn't read through the entire discussion, and as far as I can tell, it only applied to the lead. Thanks in advance! --GoneIn60 (talk) 17:57, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

It should not be changed, per Template:Infobox film, which states the starring parameter of the infobox has "the names of the actors as they are listed in the billing block of the poster for the film's original theatrical release". The billing block takes priority over the credits and this film's billing block has Courtney and Capaldi, but not Dastmalchian and Melchior. Bluerules (talk) 18:32, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

OK, that's what I thought, and I alluded to this in my revert. Just wanted to be sure some other consensus wasn't decided for this article. Thanks! --GoneIn60 (talk) 20:13, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Additionally, there was a full discussion about the cast order at #Use title credits for ordering cast section which led to consensus for the current ordering in the infobox, lead, and cast section. - adamstom97 (talk) 20:19, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Current synopsis

Does anyone have any issues with this revision of the synopsis, other than the capitalization or lack thereof of "Squad" (covered below)? User:Adamstom.97 is performing blanket undos of basically all changes made in the past few days, despite only one change actually having any dissent. Buh6173 (talk) 01:07, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

The majority of this edit was clearly edit warring over the whole "Squad" thing, and that can be dealt with in the section below. The other stuff was the second change to those sections of the plot summary in the last few days and they go against the extensive discussion that can be found at Talk:The_Suicide_Squad_(film)/Archive 1#Plot summary. In that discussion there was strong opposition to mentioning Harley in the first paragraph of the summary. I also don't think "Team 1" and "Team 2" is correct. I am not super opposed to saying "knock her out", but that has definitely been in before and been changed by various editors. And the change to the underground lab bit is part of the recent changes this week that have now gone back-and-forward. With all this in mind, I believe the "squad" issue should be resolved and then if there are further plot summary changes you want to make with good reasoning given then I am sure we will be able to work through those normally. - adamstom97 (talk) 05:48, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Reading that discussion, it seems like the majority of the "strong opposition" came from...you, and only you. I understand not mentioning Weasel's survival in the opening paragraph (which seemed to be the initial kick-off to the discussion), since that's a gag. But having the second paragraph open with "Harley, who by the way we're just now bringing up but she was part of that earlier team and she survived" is just sloppy, sloppy writing. As for the underground lab bit, in its current state it's redundant. Sentence 1 reading "Characters A and B go into the lab" and the sentence 2 reading "Characters A and B find this out" is overly repetitive. Buh6173 (talk) 20:00, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Harley doesn't become relevant to the overall summary until she finds out about the Corto Maltese government's plans to use Starro. It's not "sloppy" to introduce Harley at the first point in the story she's actually important; the current way it's handled is fine. As for the underground lab bit, I think it's important to establish that Flag, Ratcatcher, and Thinker are separated from the rest of the team. JOE BRO 64 20:59, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Even if she's not relevant, she's introduced earlier. It'd be like introducing Bloodsport's team as just that and then later on when Ratcatcher 2 is relevant saying "Ratcatcher 2, who is a member of Bloodsport's team...". So yes, it is incredibly sloppy, and the revised version is more fine. Buh6173 (talk) 21:03, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Umm... if you actually read the discussion that I linked to you would see that I was the one pushing to include Harley in the first paragraph and it was the other editors who were opposed to it. - adamstom97 (talk) 05:01, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, it's a really long text block and it was easy to mix up whether you or Bluerules was talking in any given moment. Either way, the bickering seems to be almost entirely a back-and-forth between the two of you, so I hardly see it as an iron-clad ruling that can't be challenged. Buh6173 (talk) 07:41, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

"Squad" capitalization"

I shouldn't have to point this out, but the name of the group in the movie is "The Suicide Squad". It is a title. When using "Squad" in reference to the group, it would be capitalized, in the same way that if the phrase "the League goes to fight Steppenwolf" was used in the article for Justice League, it would be capitalized, as that is the title of the group. We can leave it as "Suicide Squad" or "Squad", but if anyone is adamant on leaving things lower case, then it should just say "team" or "group" or something. Buh6173 (talk) 01:07, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

"The Suicide Squad" is the name of the movie, but it is only an informal nickname in the film itself and is not their equivalent to "Justice League" (which would be "Task Force X"). "squad" in this case is being used as a perfectly acceptable synonym for "team" or "group". It literally means "a small group of people with a particular task". - adamstom97 (talk) 05:52, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

In the universe of the film, "Suicide Squad", while an informal title, is still a title. "What are we, some kinda Suicide Squad" and whatnot. Again, if you just want to refer to them as a group, then fine. But "team" or "group" would go much further to alleviate confusion on whether it's referring to the group formally or informally. Buh6173 (talk) 19:57, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

This is a simple MOS:CAPS case. "Squad" falls under the "Generic Words" issue outlined in MOS:INSTITUTIONS: "Generic words for institutions, organizations, companies, etc., and rough descriptions of them do not take capitals". JOE BRO 64 20:54, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

You completely walked past my point. Buh6173 (talk) 21:01, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

I think interchanging "squad" with "team" would be fine to mix it up a little, but I agree that these terms should be lower case. --GoneIn60 (talk) 21:07, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Your point is that "squad" should be capitalized; I responded your point. I also forgot to mention that your Justice League example is also WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS and would also fall under MOS:CAPS (so "league" should be de-capitalized in that case). JOE BRO 64 21:09, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

It would give your argument more weight if you cite reliable sources supporting your conjecture. DonQuixote (talk) 21:16, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Exactly, every time I cite an example you just come in with the Wiki jargon equivalent of "past precedent means nothing, do what I want." And my point was that squad should be capitalized because it's the proper noun name of the team, which you also skidded past with Justice League. Buh6173 (talk) 07:38, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

So looking at a couple reliable sources – Rolling Stone and The Washington Post – squad is lowercase when used outside of the title. The Washington Post does it both ways, only capitalizing when putting "Squad" in quotes, likely because it's indicating a reference to the title. Unless there's better sources out there showing something different, then we shouldn't be capitalizing either unless written in a similar quoted fashion. --GoneIn60 (talk) 08:57, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Fair enough. In that case, I'd still shoot for using the term "team" or "group" or something, but if others really want to fight for "squad", then fine, I guess. Buh6173 (talk) 19:13, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

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