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This page is not a forum for general discussion about Subhas Chandra Bose. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Subhas Chandra Bose at the Reference desk.

Section sizes Section size for Subhas Chandra Bose (23 sections) Section name Byte count Section total (Top) 37,257 37,257 Biography 17 62,470 1897–1921: Early life 12,720 12,720 1921–1932: Indian National Congress 6,581 6,581 1933–1937: Illness, Austria, Emilie Schenkl 2,167 2,167 1937–1940: Indian National Congress 5,446 5,446 1941: Escape to Nazi Germany 3,365 3,365 1941–1943: Collaboration with Nazi Germany 6,345 6,345 1943–1945: Japanese-occupied Asia 9,171 9,171 18 August 1945: Death 16,658 16,658 Ideology 1,533 16,762 Authoritarianism 4,824 4,824 Anti-semitism 10,405 10,405 Quotes 356 356 Legacy 9,727 21,105 Memorials 7,183 7,183 In popular media 4,195 4,195 See also 412 412 Notes 31 31 References 30 24,375 Bibliography 24,345 24,345 Further reading 6,430 6,430 External links 2,591 2,591 Total 171,789 171,789

Request for comment on the lead of the article.

The lead (The first paragraph) of the article is biased and shows the subject in a negative light. Seems like an attempt to disrespect the subject. What do you think? Akshaypatill (talk) 05:24, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• Comment The lead as a whole looks like it could use some work, but it's hard to tell from this RfC what the specific issue in question is. What opinion is it biased towards, and what is the alternative? Does the current balance and/or focus differ significantly from most reliable sources, and if so in what way? CMD (talk) 05:43, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• Comment Let me add more details.Akshaypatill (talk) 05:54, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• I have now restored the longstanding version of the lead on which we can have an RFC. We cannot have an RFC on the version of the lead that has appeared a few hours ago as a result of the disruptive edits of the RFC's proposer. An RFC is about longstanding and much-discussed issues, not fly-by-night ones. An RFC is a serious thing, not something frivolous that any drive-by (for that is what this editor is) can propose after making two edits on the page. Best, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 06:06, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
• Per WP:RFCBEFORE, "Before using the RfC process to get opinions from outside editors, it's often faster and more effective to thoroughly discuss the matter with any other parties on the related talk page. Editors are normally expected to make a reasonable attempt at resolving their issues before seeking help from others. If you are able to come to a consensus or have your questions answered through discussion with other editors, then there is no need to start an RfC." The RfC proposer has not made any real effort to discuss anything. S/he does not know how to cite, does not know a reliable source from an unreliable, has appeared on this page some 12 hours ago, has attempted to make some edits (like many before him), but upon being reverted has sought to have his way by (i) edit warring, (ii) opening a frivolous dispute resolution, and now (iii) a frivolous RfC. This is a gross abuse of the RfC process. Just as the DRN was closed, this should too. If every editor who couldn't have his or her way in an article had taken to starting RfCs Misplaced Pages would shut down. Recommend close of premature RfC Fowler&fowler«Talk» 06:16, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Again, you cannot start an RFC about one edit among evolving edits on a page; an RFC is about longstanding, long-discussed things. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 06:28, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Akshaypatill (talk) 06:34, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Request for comment on the lead of the article. 2

• The lead of the article is not following Misplaced Pages guidelines for the lead. The first sentence contains almost 50 words, which compromise the readability of the lead. Also the lead, instead of introducing the subject, is giving a conclusion on his lifework.

I am proposing a slight change and addition in the lead -

• Subhas Chandra Bose(/ʃʊbˈhɑːs ˈtʃʌndrə ˈboʊs/ (About this soundlisten) shuub-HAHSS CHUN-drə BOHSS; 23 January 1897 – 18 August 1945) was an Indian nationalist. He served as leader and commander of Indian National Army (Azad Hind Fauj ) during 1943-1945. Often called as Netaji (Hindustani: "Respected Leader"), the honorific title was given to Bose in early 1942—by the Indian soldiers of the Indische Legion and by the German and Indian officials in the Special Bureau for India in Berlin, Germany. His defiant patriotism made him a hero in India, but his attempts during World War II to rid India of British rule with the help of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan left a troubled legacy.

Akshaypatill (talk) 06:37, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• Comment :@Chipmunkdavis: An editor has reverted the lead to previous version. Please give your view. Akshaypatill (talk) 06:43, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
• Per WP:RFCBEFORE, "Before using the RfC process to get opinions from outside editors, it's often faster and more effective to thoroughly discuss the matter with any other parties on the related talk page. Editors are normally expected to make a reasonable attempt at resolving their issues before seeking help from others. If you are able to come to a consensus or have your questions answered through discussion with other editors, then there is no need to start an RfC." The RfC proposer @Akshaypatill: has not made any real effort to discuss anything. S/he barely knows how to cite. S/he has appeared on this page some 12 hours ago. S/he has attempted to make some edits, but upon being reverted has sought to have their way by (i) edit warring, (ii) opening a frivolous dispute resolution, and now (iii) a frivolous RfC. This is a gross abuse of the RfC process. Just as the DRN was closed, this should be too. If every editor who couldn't have his or her way in an article took to starting on-the-fly RfCs Misplaced Pages would shut down. Recommend close of premature RfC. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 06:47, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

PS I am going to bed now, but I hope someone will stop this bizarre attempt at unraveling a longstanding article (with impeccable sources) in its tracks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 06:50, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• Comment :@Fowler&fowler:, don't disrupt the discussion please. Akshaypatill (talk) 07:07, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  Discuss by all means, but please do not jump straight for WP:RFC. As RfCs go, the three that have been started so far on this page have all been badly formed, and I agree with the early termination of the first two - and am removing the {{rfc}} tag from this one as well. Please do not add it again without a thorough normal discussion in line with WP:RFCBEFORE. Then if you really feel that a full-blown thirty-day formal RfC is absolutely necessary, read WP:RFCST and WP:WRFC before using {{rfc}} again. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 08:31, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Death

He did not die in a plane crash. It is not officially accepted. Edit that part. Please have some concience. 103.249.7.17 (talk) 20:10, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

No. It officially accepted, just not acceptable to some people. Nthep (talk) 20:14, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Duh Appu (talk) 15:20, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Netaji did not die in any air crash. The last Enquiry Commission set up by the Government of India clearly states that no air crash occurred on the date mentioned here. There is no Death Certificate available too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Banibhaban (talk • contribs) 13:52, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Do you seriously think that the Japanese authorities were too worried about death certificates in the aftermath of the two nuclear bombs and the surrender? (Please remember to sign your posts on talk pages by typing four keyboard tildes like this: ~~~~. Or, you can use the button, which automatically signs posts.) Martin of Sheffield (talk) 15:09, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Precisely. We are talking Japanese-occupied-Formosa during the period identified by Martin of Sheffield. PS In Japan Subhas Chandra Bose is commemorated every year on the anniversary of his death, August 18, at the Renkōji Temple in Tokyo, where his ashes lie by the descendants of the Japanese generals who had supported him, had reluctantly invited him aboard that already overloaded bomber, and had themselves perished in the same crash. Col. Habibur Rahman, Bose's assistant, the only INA man to accompany Bose, who guided Bose out of the burning bomber, survived the crash and later testified at the Khosla Commission. He had extensive burn marks on his forearms. Without the generals, Bose would not have been on the plane and very likely would have had to surrender to the British with the rest of the INA (as generals typically do). Without Rahman, he would have burned to death in the plane itself, and not several hours after the crash in the Taihoku Army Hospital. It is a testament both to Japanese traditions of performing under stress and to the Hippocratic oath that in the midst of so much confusion and stress, the Japanese doctors and nurses offered him the care they did. Please read Death of Subhas Chandra Bose. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:48, 23 January 2022 (UTC) Updated. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:32, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Sorry to differ in every aspect. The Japanese Govt. announced his so-called death in 1945, it is absolutely impossible for them to deny that now, so they are still going on with the camouflage. Japanese authorities were worried about death certificates, this is your statement, not mine. But you haven’t even tried to respond to the fact that no certificates were issued in his name, instead a certificate in the name of a Japanese non-existent person was there, which was ridiculously used by Shanwaz khan Commission and Khosla Commission. The ashes in Renkoji Temple is never proved to be that of Bose. I think you do not know about the burn marks on the hands of Habibur Rahman. Ridiculous once again. When others have died, he only had some burn marks on his forearm. Don't you think it is totally ludicrous?

Do you want to have a long list of books which specifically proved that no such crash ever happened???

Basudev Ghosh Banibhaban (talk) 16:01, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, we do want. Produce the long list of books which specifically prove that no such crash ever happened. But the catch is, they have be either written by a seasoned historian or published by certain university presses. Appu (talk) 16:44, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Do you think that the Enquiry Commissions were headed by "seasoned historians or published by certain university presses"???... No, they are not. But those reports were approved by Governments where also no " seasoned historian" was present.

Well, to begin with read Dissent Report written by Sures Chandra Bose, Subhash Bose's elder brother. Read one more book : "What happened to Netaji" by Anuj Dhar. These are just introductory books for you. Go throgh them and then more will follow. Banibhaban (talk) 07:19, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

And once again you have referred to another Wikepedia post, "Death of Subhas Chandra Bose"...!!!... Wikepedia trying to prove its facts with another Wikepedia post. Isn’t it ludicrous!!!... Rather you give the names of some books by some " seasoned historians or published by certain university presses. " Banibhaban (talk) 12:57, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

And once again you have referred to another Wikepedia post, "Death of Subhas Chandra Bose"...!!!... Wikepedia trying to prove its facts with another Wikepedia post. Isn’t it ludicrous!!!... Rather you give the names of some books by some " seasoned historians or published by certain university presses. "

Banibhaban (talk) 13:03, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 December 2021

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

It is not know exactly what was the cause of death so its better to specify/add "as claimed" in the statement of "Cause of Death" Rkrishnavedic (talk) 06:33, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. This looks to be a contentious issue and therefore is outside the scope of an edit request. Discuss further here on the talk page as necessary Cannolis (talk) 06:49, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Best suited adjective

Is Bose a folk hero? If yes, should that make it to this article ? Appu (talk) 15:22, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

No. A folk hero is someone who is the stuff of folk tales. S/he needs to exist either far back enough in history or be a partly mysterious modern figure for tales to sprout. Robin Hood is a folk hero, and Joan of Arc is, or in the Indian context Rana Pratap is or Laxmi Bai is, both being the stuff of ordinary people's stories and poems. Among more recent figures, Che Guevara was a folk hero in Latin America, but Fidel Castro was not (really) because he was too much of a politician; Bhagat Singh was a folk hero, but Lajpat Rai—in mistaken retaliation of whose death Bhagat Singh went to the gallows—is not. Mystery and gaps are needed in the biography. Bose is not a folk hero because his life is too well documented, warts and all. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:02, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

User:Fowler&fowler. May be User:APPU has read our talk page discussion above. Contrary to this reply, you had purposed to change the 'Hero' to 'Folk hero' once. That said, I agree with you. I don't find 'folk hero' to be suitable in this case. Akshaypatill (talk) 20:32, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the note. I was thinking hurriedly there. Later, I had time to reflect in light of RegentsPark's comments above. Best, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:45, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Bhagat Singh

Give some brief information about Bhagat Singh 160.238.72.156 (talk) 14:17, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

(1) Please do not demand try to request. (2) have you seen Bhagat Singh? There looks to be plenty there. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 14:50, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

IAS Carrier

He passed CSE (Civil Service Exam) conducted by UPSC. 2405:204:A206:195F:0:0:3E7:50B1 (talk) 07:52, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Introduction Correction

Mr. Bose was not just the Indian Nationalist, he was the Indian revolutionary and creation of Indian National Army weakened the hold of British rule in India which led to the Independence of India. Taking support of of Germany was not the troubled legacy, it is a very common political strategy which and enemy of an enemy is a friend. He had no interest in destroying the world along side of Hitler but just one motive “Total Freedom”. 2600:8800:1E8C:F400:A94C:6722:AF9D:4C4D (talk) 13:20, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Lead size

Isn't the lead too lengthy? More so considering the relatively short size of the article? Appu (talk) 11:11, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

@APPU: Your question has been asked before. I am expanding the article. Just haven't found the time lately, but the next three weeks look good. Thanks for the reminder. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:52, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Removed a dailyhunt citation

Because it seems like Misplaced Pages blacklists that source https://imgur.com/a/jtUTqQO Appu (talk) 12:54, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

New lead

I have shortened the lead of this article whose draft you can see here. I seek your revisions or feedbacks. Even if it's lacking somewhere, it is still a better draft to tweak and work on than the previous one which was messy. Pinging @Fowler&fowler: Appu (talk) 14:40, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi Appu. I'll leave F&F to comment further, but it looks to be an improvement. However I know he's working on the article so I hope it's not a bit premature. I've got a few stylistic comments to make, so I'll put them on the draft's talk page rather than here, please feel free to delete them if you wish. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 15:08, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

@APPU: The reason that the lead is so detailed is that it is primed to be used in the expansion of the main body which I am attempting to do. I grant that I have not followed up on that plan with the dispatch such promises customarily imply, but Bose's 125th is coming up in two weeks and I am keen to make some progress in the article. I apologize for this. Please allow me the work on the main body for the two weeks, and you will see that the lead will shrink miraculously if not self-destruct. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:56, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

@Fowler&fowler: - thanks for keeping us up to date, and especially thanks for your efforts over the years on this article. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 12:38, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

@Martin of Sheffield: Thank you. I've been trying to spruce up the lead for Bose's 125th on the 23rd, nipping and tucking here, stretching there. I'll then work on the early 1930s section where he meets Emilie Schenkl, visits Mussolini, and writes a book. A busy life his certainly was. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:42, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Subhash Chandra Bose's Nationality/Citizenship

In the Misplaced Pages page, Subhash Chandra Bose's citizenship is mentioned as British Raj. This seems derogatory. The term itself is derogatory. I propose that it be changed to Indian, or at the least British India. British Raj is a colonial nomenclature, and the world is mobing away from those phrases. Atanu4ever (talk) 12:19, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

I'd advise some reading first: Misplaced Pages:Five pillars - It has a lot of useful links. — DaxServer (talk · contribs) 12:37, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

From British Raj:

The British Raj (/rɑːdʒ/; from Hindi rāj: kingdom, realm, state, or empire) was the rule of the British Crown on the Indian subcontinent from 1858 to 1947. The rule is also called Crown rule in India, or direct rule in India. The region under British control was commonly called India in contemporaneous usage and included areas directly administered by the United Kingdom, which were collectively called British India, and areas ruled by indigenous rulers, but under British paramountcy, called the princely states. The region was sometimes called the Indian Empire, though not officially.

So the term appears to be correct and not derogatory. From the uses of "Raj" today Indians don't seem to have a problem with it, see the first four enties in Raj#Other. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 13:16, 22 January 2022 (UTC):

Of course he was a citizen of the British Raj. He wouldn't have had to start a freedom movement if he wasn't, would he? Britmax (talk) 19:34, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Caste of Subhas Chandra Bose

A vital information has been eluded from the article pertaining to the caste of Subhas Chandra Bose. He was Bengali Kayastha by caste. I urge the editors to add this info in the article. It is something which can't be left unacknowledged. Sources: 1).https://books.google.co.in/books?id=_JnQWzQlMN8C&pg=PA311&dq=subhas+chandra+bose+kayastha&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiE4funu8X1AhVEr1YBHUDbANQ4ChDoAXoECAgQAw#v=onepage&q=subhas%20chandra%20bose%20kayastha&f=fals 2)https://books.google.co.in/books?id=bkRxDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA519&dq=subhas+chandra+bose+kayastha&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiE4funu8X1AhVEr1YBHUDbANQ4ChDoAXoECAcQAw#v=onepage&q=subhas%20chandra%20bose%20kayastha&f=false 3)https://books.google.co.in/books?id=rYSXPg9GUpwC&pg=PA57&dq=subhas+chandra+bose+kayastha&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiE4funu8X1AhVEr1YBHUDbANQ4ChDoAXoECAoQAw#v=onepage&q=subhas%20chandra%20bose%20kayastha&f=false LALAJI1234 (talk) 13:32, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Please read due weight. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:40, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

I don't think the sources I have provided is dubious. And speaking about his background that is" disclosing the community he comes from " can't be minority issue. Neither has Bengali Kayastha community disappeared . This subtle information may not bring about biasness or may imbalance the article. I disagree with your explanation on this issue.LALAJI1234 (talk) 16:18, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Please tell in words how his Kayastha lineage affected the arc of his life. No links please, just words. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:35, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

I want to know why wikipedia has kept his caste in cover?? I think its very intentionally,please put his caste he was a Bengali Kayastha by caste Argha 19 (talk) 06:48, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Wrong date of Death given.

Netaji was not died on 18th August 1945. 2405:201:800B:C056:F1E0:EEF3:595A:B21E (talk) 19:20, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Death

Latest Mukherjee Commission appointed by Supreme court of India clearly said that, Netaji was not died on 18th August 1945 in plain crash. 49.37.34.144 (talk) 19:24, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

You have read the previous talk page entries about this plane (sic) crash, yes? Britmax (talk) 19:32, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 January 2022

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Sudiptohbk (talk) 07:10, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
death_date          = 18 August 1945(1945-08-18) (aged 48)

| death_place = Army Hospital Nanmon Branch, Taihoku, Japanese Taiwan (present-day Taipei City Hospital Heping Fuyou Branch, Taipei, Taiwan) | death_cause = Third-degree burns from aircrash

This is not true. Sudiptohbk (talk) 07:11, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 07:43, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Date of Death

Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose's death in the so-called air crash has been denied by so many researchers in many parts of the world. Even there is no death certificate available for his death in that "air crash". One Enquiry Commission set up be the Govt. of India clearly stated that no air crash occurred on that day at Taihoku airport. The airport authorities of Taihoku also doesn't have any such record. The date and the reason put up by Wikepedia make millions of Indians dissatisfied and angry.

It will be much better if the date and reason is corrected and " nothing obvious and certain" is written instead of that. Banibhaban (talk) 09:14, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

I can't see your reliable source. Please read previous discussions on this matter. Britmax (talk) 11:43, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

So what is the reliable source?...

I can give you hundreds of such, e.g. 1) Dissential Report by Suresh Chandra Bose (I hope you know that he was Subhas Chandra's own brother), 2) What Happened to Netaji by Anuj Dhar.

Go through these at first. Then hundreds more will come. Banibhaban (talk) 16:06, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Do you have links for those? Britmax (talk) 19:00, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Search Google, you will get it yourself. Banibhaban (talk) 06:27, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

If you think it shoud go into the article you should have done this yourself. Britmax (talk) 17:29, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

"Though" instead of "but"

@Fowler&fowler: I just thought "though" made more grammatical sense than "but" in that place; I wasn't trying to change the meaning of the sentence. You seem to think I was implying something about the period of time in which Bose showed those signs, but I don't understand how you interpreted it that way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by पदाति (talk • contribs) 09:54, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

"Though" creates a subordinate clause (a rephrase would be: "Although he showed signs of ---, he defied British rule.") and minimizes more than "but," which as conjunction, offers a more straightforward contrast. We could change the "but" to an "and" to make it more NPOV. The second part of my edit summary was independent of the first part, as he showed these signs well before his rebellion in the Congress and flight to Germany, i.e. they were not simply ideologies inherited from the alliances. It is a tricky biography with multiple "what ifs," which are a part of his appeal to many. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:53, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

For now I have changed back to the version with "but." Perhaps you can tell me why you think "though" makes more grammatical sense. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:11, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Actually, I've changed back to an even older version. The lead sentence in a complex biography such as this is tricky. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:09, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

WP:VOICE

His collaborations with Japanese Fascism and Nazisim are problematic. His reluctance to publicly criticize the worst excesses of German anti-Semitism from 1938 onwards or to offer refuge in India to its victims, cannot be said to have arisen from a lack of awareness of the excesses.

Breaches WP:NPOV, and seems to be personal opinion of the editor. I suggest that this passage is removed.

2409:4072:8E3C:9C96:F105:BBD2:4D0C:3C1 (talk) 14:45, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Good point. I have changed the first part to "poses serious ethical dilemmas" per the source. Thanks. The second is widely known. He had been taking anti-Semitic stances from the mid-1930s onward in the Indian National Congress discussions and motions. In other words, his was not simply a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." He had some knowledge of the German or Italian underbelly. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:26, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Netaji died on 18 sep 1985

Add per free sources netaji died at 18th September 1985 223.235.173.48 (talk) 11:18, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Please point us to the sources. Britmax (talk) 17:30, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

It's 16th September 1985. S882iiqu2ey6 (talk) 08:52, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 January 2022

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The date of death is not confirmed yet. Ghoshkingsuk1991 (talk) 17:15, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Most people seem to think it has been. What does your reliable source say on the matter? Britmax (talk) 17:31, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. It is sourced reasonably well. You'd have to provide other sources disputing the source currently in use. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:05, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

The knowledge panel is heavily biased and misleading

> his wartime alliances with Nazi Germany and Fascist Japan left a legacy vexed by authoritarianism and anti-Semitism.

This is very recent. The first thing that people see when they Google "Subhas Chandra Bose" is "Nazi Germany" "Fascist Japan" "anti-Semitism". Why is this the case? Why are we allowing people to purposefully try and mislead the public into believing something that is not true?

Netaji Bose was not a fascist, he was not an authoritarian, he was not anti-Semitic. From his own words,

"I am not an apologist of the Tripartite Powers (Axis Powers) ; that is not my job. My concern is with India. When British Imperialism is defeated India will get her freedom. If, on the other hand, British Imperialism should somehow win the war, then India’s slavery would be perpetuated for ever. India is, therefore, presented with the choice between freedom and slavery. She must make her choice."

It seems that the person who is trying to associate Bose's name with Nazism is heavily biased and wants to spread a myth. It should be changed to something else less degrading. He is, after all, a freedom fighter, and no amount of "unbiased Misplaced Pages viewpoint" can change that. He deserves more respect than to be publicly degraded like this. Not even Hitler's Misplaced Pages knowledge panel is this biased. Pranath vir (talk) 04:04, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. In other words, he is not a reliable source per Misplaced Pages rules and conventions. Among scholars published by internationally-recognized scholarly publishers, there is plenty about Bose's authoritarianism, his military incompetence, and unspoken anti-Semitism. Nehru, for example, not only made many public statements condemning Fascism and Nazism in all its forms but so did the Congress Party. Bose, on the other hand, when he was Congress president, was the only one in the Working Committee who opposed such motions (e.g. the one denouncing Kristallnacht). Please read the generous quotes provided in the scholarly sources that have been cited by the dozens in the lead. That Bose has become a tool for political mobilization by political parties of all hues, and his life is being "spun" in a certain way is not Misplaced Pages's issue. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:28, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

You are telling me to properly cite myself yet you yourself cannot even cite the sources which indicate that Subhas was an anti-semitic person. He had Jewish friends who he was not afraid to show his contempt for the Nazis towards. Kitty Kurti was one of them, who he befriended while in Berlin. She has an entire book on it here. Bose's story is not a political tool of any kind. His life being spun in a certain way is Misplaced Pages's issue because Misplaced Pages's job is to provide unbiased and factually correct information, and people are only being misinformed because of the improper context given from here. Pranath vir (talk) 04:43, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Death

Enough is enough, the time has come for Indians to know the real truth that netaji died in 16th September 1985 in Faizabad, UP. I wanna quote some words here : "Disappearance was planned by HIM . Long ago, before Jap surrender. Even before that he went to 'R' and nobody knew it. He returned after one and half months. He knew all men under him and their capacity. He planned his disappearance, Jwellery and Treasure were packed for dropping at a place of his disappearance. First bomber was a dummy flight with publicity of Him, Kimura and others. Real bomber left after, for unknown destination. Minister Ayer was to follow the Bomber amd treasure. But he went to Tokyo handed over the treasure to Rammurthi. Disposed of some, encashed part of jewells, with help of Br Military of Tokyo and Jap foreign officials. J N knows it. Murthi gave "J" only small fraction of fabulous wealth. No treasure was burnt. It is a fabrication. Imperial Jap Army, British men, India Govt. and party men all involved. That is why no action was taken. Unfortunately, surprisingly and accidentally He met, was met by several Anglo-American personnel and Jap petty (unknown) officers at a small Hotel near Saigon, quite some day after the crash and Death news. These things only suggest one thing- so He in his own brain formulated at once another plan of strategical move."

Source - Oi mahamanab ashe (bengali book). S882iiqu2ey6 (talk) 08:50, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Can you please link us to the book so that this can be verified? Britmax (talk) 09:27, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Here is the link : OI MAHAMANAB ASE - OSESH https://www.amazon.in/dp/B09P6MP2CZ/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_i_NA4CVMVH4303QSHR2ZGJ. Hope there was an option to upload images :( S882iiqu2ey6 (talk) 19:25, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

You can add pictures by uploading them to imgur.com and pasting that URL in here. However, there is no need to do that now because the book you are citing is not a valid source. Please read WP:RS, especially

• Reliable scholarship – Material such as an article, book, monograph, or research paper that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable, where the material has been published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses.

Apart from you I suggest you to leave this issue right here. It is a well-documented fact that Bose died when he did. At least, do not lie to yourself when the evidence is glaring right at you just because you want to end the day with a pride of being a Bengali/Bose fan. Appu (talk) 20:05, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

LOL, thank you, but it is also a well documented and a well written fact that netaji didn't die on "when he did" (so much so, that it was well written in the post years of 1945, and I hope there was no petty politics at that time eh ?). Do not lie to yourself either when the "right" evidence is glaring at you. And sorry, I am also a bengali sir/mam, so there no way I am disrespecting him by saying that. S882iiqu2ey6 (talk) 03:26, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Also here are some videos : 1. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=13N0OIBdfoE&feature=youtu.be

2. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=op2AoB7-Nqg&feature=youtu.be S882iiqu2ey6 (talk) 04:15, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

I would like to add to what APPU has stated very clearly. Please read WP:SOURCETYPES which states: "When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources." and WP:TERTIARY which states: "Tertiary sources are publications such as encyclopedias and other compendia that summarize primary and secondary sources. ... Many introductory undergraduate-level textbooks are regarded as tertiary sources because they sum up multiple secondary sources. Policy: Reliable tertiary sources can help provide broad summaries of topics that involve many primary and secondary sources and may help evaluate due weight, especially when primary or secondary sources contradict each other." I have now added citations for Bose's death to four tertiary and two scholarly monographs, all published by academic publishers. They state that Bose died on August 18, 1945. I think this is enough to end the debate per Misplaced Pages policy. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:16, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Yeah end the debate. What to say, better believe what you want to ! Also, pls end the debate with "your" policy, instead of Wikipedi's, hope you get it ! S882iiqu2ey6 (talk) 19:01, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Well, unless you, or someone else, can provide a reliable source what's the point of doing anything else? Britmax (talk) 19:06, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Can it be something? https://www.hindustantimes.com/india/no-crash-killing-netaji-took-place/story-KobsStXGtmsUGcgpE5c8pI.html S882iiqu2ey6 (talk) 19:19, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

That is dated 2005. What became of those e-mails when verification was attempted? What were the conclusions of the Mukherjee Commission? Is there anything more recent than seventeen years ago? Britmax (talk) 19:33, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 January 2022

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Bose did not die in Taipe. He did not marry Emily Shenkel. 2409:4060:2D89:DB7D:0:0:2C49:AD05 (talk) 19:18, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. "If all else failed (Bose) wanted to become a prisoner of the Soviets: 'They are the only ones who will resist the British. My fate is with them. But as the Japanese plane took off from Taipei airport its engines faltered and then failed. Bose was badly burned in the crash. According to several witnesses, he died on 18 August in a Japanese military hospital, talking to the very last of India's freedom. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:27, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 January 2022

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death date is wrong Netajialive97 (talk) 04:13, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

As per mukherjee commission netaji's death date can not be confirmed Netajialive97 (talk) 04:14, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

So in death date there must be nil or should be removed Netajialive97 (talk) 04:15, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Cannolis (talk) 04:23, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Death date is not clear,it should be immediately removed Argha 19 (talk) 06:38, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 February 2022

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He was born in a Bengali Kayastha Family Argha 19 (talk) 06:36, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Please approve my request Argha 19 (talk) 06:37, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 06:45, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Refbombing

Haynes is already there; why cite the same evidence he cites from multiple authors - especially, when they do not make any any claims about Bose's legacy? He and Casolari provide the most comprehensive treatment of Subhas Bose's adventures in Nazi Lands and they are sufficient. TrangaBellam (talk) 14:46, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

You have used Bruckenhaus as a supporting citation but he speaks nothing about Bose's legacy. The place to use him is in the body where a detailed analysis of the cirumstances governing Bose's choices can be engaged in. I do not get the need of using low-quality sources like Kumaraswamy either.

Both Hayes and Casolari are excellent sources - leave at it. TrangaBellam (talk) 14:52, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

However, I wonder whether "antisemitism" shall be replaced with something more stronger but more accurate: "overlooking of Nazi atrocities incl. Holocaust."

The evidence is very very slim that Bose hold any personal opinion on Jews: the best example being supposed article in Goebbels’ Der Angriff, which has never been located. The rest, as Haynes puts it, is largely evidence of a radical nationalist blinded into caring for none but his own countrymen. TrangaBellam (talk) 15:00, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. I was simply collecting all the relevant sources, as I've done in the past with other sections in this article, and they are more than just Haynes and Casolari. And the evidence is not slim in my view, he had given plenty while he was still in India, to which a large number of the remaining sources speak. Please see the discussion on my user talk page. Your comments are not helpful at this stage. As an experienced, competent, editor I know how to write an article such as this. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:23, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

@TrangaBellam: I apologize for the last sentence above, which I have now scratched. I just noticed that you made a revert with edit summary, "I do not think this is NPOV; we need sources that EXPLICITLY note his legacy to be interspersed with antisemitism, which is a GRAVE charge" and then an hour later, a self-revert with "Reverted 1 edit by TrangaBellam (talk): Self-reverting until I write a detailed comment at talk-page" So, your comments are not coming out of the blue which is what I had thought. Well, "vex" has a fairly precise meaning in this context, and it is not "interspersed." it means, "Of a question, problem, subject, etc.: to present with difficulties with regard to resolution or understanding; to perplex, confound." (OED) For years the lead used to say, "a troubled legacy." But someone mentioned on the talk page that "troubled" is vague, and therefore not encyclopedic. The change was an effort to make it precise. I was collecting sources so as to transparently write the sentence and to then write a Legacy section (or rewrite it) Anti-Semitism is very much a part of what Bose's legacy is confounded with longer, i.e. starting earlier than his Berlin years. He is not just a radical nationalist who is willing to condone anything done by others as long as he can pursue his goals. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:35, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for striking the bits out. Why not use your sandbox to build the lead? Having references at the end of line, which do not support the claims (absent orig. research or synthesis) is misleading, even if temporary.

Haynes, the only scholar who has produced an academic monograph on the episode, is very explicit that the real deal with Bose's legacy is "overlooking" of Nazi policies and atrocities. In his conclusion, he even goes out on a limb to claim that if Bose had known the real depths of Nazi atrocities, a condemnation would have certainly arose. But I look forward to your sources.

I do not have any admiration for Bose or his ways—having been the first editor to propose utilizing Casolari, a year back and noting that our article goes easy on Bose's flings with Nazism—but we do have a responsibility to be accurate and true to sources. My view—upon a reading of Haynes and Casolari—remains that he was a radical nationalist, willing to condone anything done by others as long as he can pursue his goals.TrangaBellam (talk) 15:52, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

That being said, I am not a native speaker of English and I will think about "vex". TrangaBellam (talk) 15:57, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Casolari notes that Bose did undeniably know of Nazi policies etc. but (p. 114) concludes:

The nature of Bose’s relations with the totalitarian regimes is still open to debate and will perhaps never be entirely clear. There can be little doubt, however, that he entertained with the Axis powers an opportunistic relationship. On the basis of the principle ‘my foe’s foes are my friends’, Italy, Germany and Japan could be India’s friends, at least until the British Raj had collapsed.

TrangaBellam (talk) 16:19, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

I have all the books, including Casolari. I don't think Haynes and Casolari are the only two books, nor do I think they are the most rigorous. The reason I chose "vexed" was to be able to include more of all the authors than I have quoted in the sources. The thing is that Bose opposed a Congress party resolution condemning Kristallnacht in 1938 when he was President, (which Casolari mentions but she is merely paraphrasing other authors) way back in 1938; he opposed another resolution of Nehru supporting refuge for European Jewish professionals in India. There was clear evidence of anti-Semitism. It is more than overlooking anti-Semitism. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:54, 4 February 2022 (UTC) Updated. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:53, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

I don't think any source says he's mediocre. In the sources, he comes across as charismatic, driven, and a major Indian nationalist; the radical or socialist is secondary. Neither Haynes or Casolari is a Bose-historian of the stature of a Leonard A. Gordon; they themselves (at least Haynes) say that somewhere. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:08, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

PS I've updated the spelling of the name: Romain Hayes. It is not Haynes. There was also the original book on Bose in Germany Germany in the time before and during Bose from which a lot has been borrowed, cited, or quoted by many others; it is Hauner, Milan (1981), India in Axis Strategy: Germany, Japan, and Indian Nationalists in the Second World War, Stuttgart: Klett-Cotta. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:53, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Leonard Gordon reviewed Hauner in 1983 in India in Axis Strategy: Germany, Japan, and Indian Nationalists in the Second World War. by Milan Hauner Review by: Leonard A. Gordon The Journal of Asian Studies, Vol. 42, No. 4 (Aug., 1983), pp. 989-990, Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/2054830. He begins the review with: "This long-awaited, searching examination of the place of India in Axis (particularly German) strategic thinking and activity from 1939 to 1942 is based on an investigation of British and German records that is unlikely to be attempted again or matched. It also draws on a wide reading of the literature of World War II, published Japanese and Italian documents, and a considerable understanding of the thinking and activities of the Italians and Japanese as grasped through German records. It complements, therefore, the excellent studies of the Indian National Army seen more in its Asian setting by Joyce Lebra, Hugh Toye, and K. K. Ghosh as well as the recent study of India in the war period by Johannes H. Voigt; and it parallels the skillful work by Lukasz Hirszowicz in The Third Reich and the Arab East. Hauner does make an effort to connect Indian nationalism and Axis strategies and actions, but his main focus is on the "often confused and pluralistic character of Nazi foreign policy" (p. 34)" Famous last words, ..., from half a century ago, now.

In a more recent review, Leonard Gordon has panned Romain Hayes's book (for the most part). I will post a link to that too later. But then Gordon has been criticized by others (I believe) for not taking Bose to task for his German misdemeanors, figuratively speaking. (This is one of the most worked over topic areas of modern history. So, there are going to be a lot of views.) I guess my point is that Romain Hayes's book should not be seen as the be-all and end-all. The more the merrier (in my view) at this stage of writing. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:09, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

I thank you TrangaBellam for mentioning Marzia Casolari earlier. Her book sparked my interest again in this phase of Bose. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:21, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Gordon is a biographer of Bose - how can you even compare him and Hayes? That being said, if you do prefer Gordon, you need to strike out the bits about antisemitism. Gordon had panned Hayes' book because he found Hayes to be too critical of Bose; it is disingenuous to leverage him in arguing that Hayes be treated at par with shriller non-specialist sources.

You have reinserted Bruckenhaus as a supporting citation and I reiterate that the source says nothing about Bose's legacy - antisemitic or whatever kind. The place to use him is in the body where a detailed analysis of the circumstances governing Bose's choices can be engaged in. You have also reinserted Joan G. Roland whose entire argument derive from The Jewish Chronicle's rebut to an article by Bose in Goebbel's newspaper. This is already mentioned in the preceding citation by Hayes, who had added that the article has been never located in archives. Since Roland does not speak of Bose's legacy, the only purpose served by the reference is to lead a reader to conclude that Bose was indeed Anti-semitic.

In the same vein, what is the purpose of Gerhard L. Weinberg? Weinberg notes historians to have not engaged with Bose's reactions to Japanese or German war-crimes. Colin Shindler is an executive summary of Aafreedi: mentions the same points of (a) Bose having opposed a resolution on Jews and (b) Bose's article inAngriff. I have already described the circumstances surrounding the latter. TrangaBellam (talk) 06:14, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

You know nothing about the topic. You have written nothing of consequence on Misplaced Pages. You are blustering away about titbits that I have quoted to give the reader a general idea about the topic. As such I see you as nothing but a disruptive presence. I will continue to write the article. Enough is enough. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 06:49, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

I do not care for your opinions of me and my knowledge; if you do not cease with personal attacks, you will be at WP:AE. There is a reason why multiple longstanding contributors (cc: Kautilya3 and Joshua Jonathan) hate to collaborate with you on anything: I suggest that you introspect on your behavior rather than throwing temper tantrums. TrangaBellam (talk) 07:12, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Please do take me to AE in this instance. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 07:14, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

"I reiterate" you say, "that the source says nothing about Bose's legacy - antisemitic or whatever kind." The cited author says, " As the western empires fought against Nazi Germany, most anticolonialists felt that they could no longer support, simultaneously, the emancipatory projects of anticolonialism and antifascism. Some, such as Subhas Chandra Bose, began to cooperate with the radically racist Nazis against colonialism, while others decided to work against Nazism with the very western authorities who had been engaged, over the previous decades, in creating a widespread network of trans-national surveillance against them." If you cooperate with a radically racist regime, what form of racism are you cooperating with if not anti-Semitism. Again, were are not required to provide sources that say, "Bose's legacy is: X, Y, and Z." Different authors do so in different ways. There are many ways to skin that cat. Similarly, you are nickel and diming Leonard A. Gordon's review of Hayes's book. I brought it up to make the point that there are many authors here, many shades of critical opinion. We can't put all our eggs in one basket. This is an art not a science. Similarly, Leonard A. Gordon has not panned Hayes's book because the latter is too critical of Bose. I didn't say that. I said only, "But then Gordon has been criticized by others (I believe) for not taking Bose to task for his German misdemeanors, figuratively speaking." A good part of the review (at least the first half) is about the errors of interpretation in Hayes or the lack of completeness. Here are a few paragraphs from R. Hayes (2011). Subhas Chandra Bose in Nazi Germany. Politics, Intelligence and Propaganda 1941–43. By: Gordon, Leonard A., Diplomacy & Statecraft, 09592296, Mar2012, Vol. 23, Issue 1:

Hayes details Bose's efforts week by week, especially from the spring of 1941 to mid-1942 to procure a declaration of Free India from the Germans and Italians. He describes, all too briefly, the work of the Free India Centre (a propaganda effort) and the training of the Indian Legion, a fighting force composed of captured Indian prisoners brought to Germany from North Africa. Given the sources to which he had access and the interviews he mentions, it is regrettable that he did not explore how the Indian work in Europe looked from the point of view of these soldiers. Hayes sometimes simplifies and distorts when he quotes other books. He uses this writer's biography (Brothers against the Raj: A Biography of Indian Nationalists Sarat and Subhas Chandra Bose, 1990) as a source for asserting that Bose had a marriage according to Hindu rites. I, however, said that there were many different stories about when and how and if Bose married and none had been proved. Hayes asserts that Adam von Trott zu Solz "disliked Bose" and uses a biography of Bose by Mihir Bose as his source. Mihir Bose and this writer used the same sources to say that Subhas Bose and Trott never became close but dislike is much too strong. They worked together, but each had a different mission and neither fully understood the other. This was confirmed in my interviews with Trott's widow, Clarita, during the 1980s. ... With Bose's departure for Southeast Asia in February 1943, Hayes drops him like a hot potato. He also makes glaring errors (pp. 82, 84) in referring to the Indian National Army in Southeast Asia, having it fighting in Malaya and then helping the Japanese to capture Singapore even before it was formed. It was the brainchild of Japanese intelligence, particularly of Major (later Lieutenant-General) Fujiwara Iwaichi, who helped to shape it from the prisoners taken at Singapore by the Japanese.

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 07:27, 5 February 2022 (UTC) Updated with the review. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 08:08, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Gordon, Leonard A., "75 years of World War II: Trans-global solidarities in S. Asia", UCLA, Aug 2020

Hayes has produced a detailed account of Bose's maneuvers in Germany, using copious amount of archival sources esp. from Germany. Yet the definitive account remains to be written. Much of his evidence can be interpreted to argue, as he graciously concedes, to portray Bose as a shrewd opportunist than someone with any fascist or racist inclinations.

TrangaBellam (talk) 08:23, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Emphasis and interpolations are mine. TrangaBellam (talk) 08:24, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Further, we do need to provide sources that say, "Bose's legacy is: X, Y, and Z."

You cannot take random sources that mention of Bose's collaboration with Nazi Germany or his refusal to pass certain resolutions to derive that antisemitism is a part of Bose's legacy. That is textbook synthesis. TrangaBellam (talk) 08:27, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Please stick to one argument.

• You started with, "Haynes (sic) is already there; why cite the same evidence he cites from multiple authors - especially, when they do not make any any (sic) claims about Bose's legacy? He and Casolari provide the most comprehensive treatment of Subhas Bose's adventures in Nazi Lands and they are sufficient." In response, I suggested that neither Hayes nor Casolari are the most rigorous. I brought up Leonard Gordon's review of Hayes's book to make the point that Leonard A. Gordon, Bose's definitive biographer, found Hayes to be sloppy as well in his interpretations of others. In other words, it is best to let the other authors that you claim Hayes to be summarizing, and whose citations you wish to remove, speak for themselves.
• You also began by suggesting that the evidence is slim that Bose held any personal opinion on Jews. But if a person's legacy is vexed, i.e. "confounded, present(ed) with difficulties with regard to resolution or understanding (OED)" with anti-Semitism, they don't have to have a personal opinion of the Jewish people. The sources that I have brought to bear bring up a past of several years before his arrival in Germany in which he had opposed either the Indian National Congress's resolutions condemning Kristallnacht or supporting refuge for Jewish professionals in India. Nehru, for example, his opponent in many of these arguments, was instrumental in bringing quite a few to India and Burma and the two had been disagreeing about that for some time before.
• You suggested that Hayes's Subhas Chandra Bose in Nazi Germany (a book which was published in 2011 and which I have used in this article, and in Emilie Schenkl and Special Bureau for India since 2013, if not earlier) and Marzia Casolari (2020) are sufficient: "I do not get the need" you said," of using low-quality sources like Kumaraswamy either. Both Hayes and Casolari are excellent sources - leave at it." In response, I have quoted extensively from Gordon's review." I am attempting to make a point that historical interpretation is not a precise science, that different authors make different judgments of notable personalities, events, and each other's works. Gordon for example is on point about Hayes's sloppy interpretation of Bose's Hindu marriage ceremony but is quibbling slightly about Hayes's "Adam von Trott, a senior official at the Special India Bureau, tried to entice Shedai by offering him control of the Free India Centre and the POWs, even going as far as to suggest reducing Bose to a figurehead. Trott, who personally disliked Bose, was speaking for himself as he had not received any such instructions from his superiors." Gordon, however, does say, "Most of the German Foreign Office group—Trott, Alexander Werth, Freda Kretschmer—appear to have disliked (Emilie Schenkl) her intensely. They believed that she and Bose were not married and that she was using her liason with Bose to live an especially comfortable life during the hard times of war. ...Bose acknowledged his family. But the woman he chose, though she contributed to his own work and life, helped alienate the very anti-Nazi Foreign Office officials to whom he might have come closer." So, perhaps, Hayes can be forgiven for saying that Trott "personally disliked" Bose.
• What now is the point of citing some other quote from Gordon? All he says is that Haye's evidence can be equally used to interpret that Bose did not have Fascist or racist inclinations. Who is talking about "inclinations" here? If a notable personality has been interpreted by quite a few authors (both before and after Hayes or Casolari penned theirs) to have positively discriminated against Jews by their actions, have been summarized to have collaborated with a radically racist regime, how can we not say that their legacy is confounded with anti-Semitism? We do that routinely in other articles, for example, Narendra Modi, when we say, "Under Modi's tenure, India has experienced democratic backsliding," cited to half a dozen sources. And when people query, we refer them to the sources.
• I have also just noticed that you have made perplexing comments about JoshuaJonathan and Kautilya3. I have had my disagreements with them, but we agree on a large number of issues. Kautilya3, for example, and I have kept the Kashmir page vandalism-free for years. JoshuaJonathan and collaborated on a number of historical issues, despite our disagreements, for example the lead of Sanskrit.
• Finally, you have taken a bizarre stab at a summary, "(SCB is) a radical nationalist, willing to condone anything done by others as long as he can pursue his goals." He was not mediocre in any sense. I chalk that to your unfamiliarity with modern South Asian history. He was a major Indian nationalist, a charismatic and talented man besides. And he wasn't willing to condone anything. He certainly did not condone the Allies' fight against Germany; he positively opposed it. In other words, he positively opposed the anti-Fascists, not just condemnations of anti-Semitism. What you are suggesting is a very dangerous road to go down. This is as far as I go in engaging you. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:15, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Much of what you say is usual bluster, that is so characteristic of you. I will rebut to two particular points:

when we say, "Under Modi's tenure, India has experienced democratic backsliding," cited to half a dozen sources. And when people query, we refer them to the sources. - Thanks but no thanks.

There are half-a-dozen sources who explicitly note that India's democracy has regressed since Modi arrived. We do not append sources that claim (a) India's media-freedom has regressed under Modi or (b) that provisions of sedition are wantonly abused in Modi's India or something similar, and lead a reader to the conclusion.

Though an argument can be made, as in here, about how such actions do constitute democratic backsliding.

JoshuaJonathan and collaborated on a number of historical issues.

To quote from the horse's mouth: This attitude of yours is why I gave up "discussing" with you after the previous discussion ; it's useless. You're not open to discussion.

Whenever somebody dares to cross your path and oppose your edits, you harp about how all the FAs that you wrote and how nobody else understands the sources in their proper context. In the most condescending manner that can be possible.

Multiple editors including but not limited to Moxy (You are great at belittling people and is why people simply give up in trying to help the article.), 力 (If you don't dial down the constant implications that no other editors know anything about India, I will start an ANI thread about your behavior.), and पाटलिपुत्र (thread) have made the same observations within the past set of years. There are many others, I have not bothered to link. You have already pinged Kautilya3 (there is a reason why multiple longstanding contributors (cc: Kautilya3) hate to collaborate with you on anything); so he can explain whether my statement was correct or not.

To conclude, I have never met an editor as toxic (and hostile) as you and I think that this is a clever strategy to remove editorial opponents. I won't participate any further. But at the instance of the next repetition of such hostile behavior, you will be explaining at ANI/AE about the many FAs. TrangaBellam (talk) 17:34, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

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