Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 13:54, 7 February 2022

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. J04n(talk page) 16:11, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Aram Grigoryan

Aram Grigoryan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Subject does not pass WP:POLITICIAN. "Just being an elected local official, or an unelected candidate for political office, does not guarantee notability, although such people can still be notable if they meet the primary notability criterion of "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject of the article". No coverage other than the 1 reference in the article which is a brief mention and only shows the position the person held. Fails WP:GNG and WP:POLITICIAN. A redirect of the page may be appropriate, but does not meet requirements for a stand alone article. FoolMeOnce2Times (talk) 14:55, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Armenia-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:20, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Azerbaijan-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:20, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:20, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

• Keep. The subject is neither an elected local official nor an unelected candidate for political office, so the deletion rationale offered is inapplicable. The part of WP:POLITICIAN that does apply is "politicians and judges who have held international, national or sub-national (statewide/provincewide) office, and members or former members of a national, state or provincial legislature". Depending on how we interpret the status of Nagorno-Karabakh Grigoryan has held either national or subnational (statewide/provincewide) office. Phil Bridger (talk) 16:43, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - Thank you for the rationale. I am not sure how to interpret his position, I am only going on you saying that he passes WP:POLITICIAN; however, I still do not see how he meets notability. As notability is not inherent from him being a politician who has held office, can you point to the WP:RS that establish his notability. Thank you. --FoolMeOnce2Times (talk) 16:56, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

• WP:POLITICIAN is part of a notability guideline, and says that notability is inherent from him being a politician who has held office at national or subnational (statewide/provincewide) level. If you recognise Nagorno-Karabakh as an independent country then Grigoryan held office at national level, and if you don't then he held office at subnational (statewide/provincewide) level. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:08, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

• Thank you again. The footnote to the section you cite, Section 1 under WP:POLITICIAN, states that holding office is a secondary criterion and that "people who satisfy this criterion will almost always satisfy the primary criterion," but doesn't state that they always satisfy the primary criterion. Unfortunately, this person does NOT satisfy the primary criterion of having multiple, significant, and reliable sources. There is nothing in there that states they are inherently notable. In fact, the footnote is clear that it is a secondary criterion.--FoolMeOnce2Times (talk) 18:29, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

• Either the primary or the secondary criterion can be used to demonstrate notability, as is made perfectly clear by the final sentence of that footnote. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:53, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

I am not sure that it is "perfectly clear." It states, "However, this criterion ensures that our coverage of major political offices, incorporating all of the present and past holders of that office, will be complete regardless." This is an "ignore all rules" type policy that is set out to make sure that Misplaced Pages lists those who have held major political offices, regardless of them receiving significant coverage. As implied by both of the keep votes at this point, I do not think anyone would consider the office that he holds as a major office and therefore the secondary criterion would not apply. If so, we could list anyone who has ever been in a "political office" in any country in the world. Also, I feel that if his political office was a major one, there would be an article here in Misplaced Pages listing such or some significant coverage about the position. Again, as it is not a major political office, second criterion would not apply and significant coverage would be needed. --FoolMeOnce2Times (talk) 20:56, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

A government minister in the effective government of a de facto independent country is a major political office by any reasonable definition, including the definition in WP:POLITICIAN that I have already quoted several times above. Phil Bridger (talk) 07:32, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

• I think under any definition, a "major office" includes individuals who create and shape policy for a nation or a subnational government. This is how I interpret the intent of WP:POLITICIAN. The guideline does not state that all elected officials should have a page on Misplaced Pages, and the guidelines exclude local elected officials. Enos733 (talk) 03:34, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Keep. The subject is (was) an elected member of the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic national assembly and would meet WP:Politician. The Nagorno-Karabakh Republic is only recognized by four other nations, though. Enos733 (talk) 17:15, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - I would pose the same question to you as well. Can you point to the WP:RS or are we to just assume that he is/was an elected member of the national assembly based on a brief mention as opposed to significant coverage in reliable sources? Thank you. --FoolMeOnce2Times (talk) 17:24, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

• Significant coverage is not required for verification of facts, such as Grigoryan's ministerial position. All that is required is a reliable source, which we have. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:12, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

• Keep Meets WP:POLITICIAN in any event, and there is a strong presumption that significant coverage exists in reliable sources published in languages other than English. No substantive reason to distrust the existing source has been offered. Cullen Let's discuss it 05:54, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
• Delete. I don't think a former deputy minister of health and a present MP of an unrecognized state is really notable for a stand alone article. Grandmaster 17:06, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

• State legislators in Wyoming are accepted without question as notable per WP:POLITICIAN, so I don't see why an equivalent from a territory with far greater geopolitical importance should not be so accepted. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:28, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

• Keep. Deputy ministers are notable, whether of fully recognised states or not. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:53, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

• Comment Does the minister have an article? I couldn't find one and it seems rather odd that a deputy minister gets to have an article, but not the minister. I'm leaning towards "delete" at this point. George Spurlin (talk) 18:11, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

• The minister certainly should have an article, but if it hasn't been created yet that is not a reason to delete an article about the deputy minister. Misplaced Pages is far from complete. WP:POLITICIAN doesn't require that subjects should be ministers or deputy ministers - it's enough that they are legislators at the national or subnational (statewide/provincewide) level, one of which applies to Grigoryan. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:57, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

• Keep It is clear that members of the Nagorno-Karabakh assembly are notable. The article needs to be rewritten, but the person is clearly notable.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:02, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

• Keep Per Phil Bridger. He is definitely a notable figure due to his service as a minister of a significant self-autonomous republic. Anyhow, I am in the process of improving the article as well. Proudbolsahye (talk) 20:36, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.