Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:30, 10 February 2007

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A FALUN GONG DISCUSSION FORUM! Please, add new messages pertaining to editing the FLG article at the bottom of this page.

This talk page

I'm thinking of moving or at least copying the relevant portions of the Falun Gong talk page over here so that we can discuss in the correct place and not overuse the main talk page. Thoughts? CovenantD 16:25, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Good idea. That page explodes every day with posts. --Yenchin 17:44, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I seond that approach, and agree with your edits below. Thanks for putting in those "citation needed" comments. They will help us focus on what needs to be done. --Tomananda 18:48, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I think I got everything. Many of the concerns are being addressed with my revision, and the revisions based on it, so let's continue to look forward. CovenantD 23:04, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

From the main Falun Gong talk page

Text that needs to be deleted, verified or re-written

5. Unsourced material which makes claims about what actually happened during the Tianamin Square self-immolation indicent:

• The campaign of government criticism begun in 1999 was considered by most observers to be largely ineffectual until January 2001,( unsourced POV) when persons whom the government claimed were Falun Gong practitioners. And:
• Falun Gong practitioners emphatically denied that the people who set themselves on fire could have been actual practitioners, since suicide is completely against Falun Gong's principles. (unsourced POV) And:
• Falun Gong members believe that the incident is an attempt of the Chinese government to turn public opinion in China against Falun Gong to rally support for government crackdown. Falun Gong practitioenrs claim that their Master forbids suicide but have not yet provide any such statements.

This material currently appears in the page called Persecution of Falun Gong. An editor added the comments about unsourced POV) some time ago, but without a response from any of the pro-Falun Gong editors. Dilip states he can re-write this material and provide verifiable sources, and other editors have commented, but so far no alternative text has been proposed.

6. Additional unsourced or unverified material appearing in the page called Persecution of Falun Gong:

• Falun Gong practitioners have affimed that the people seen in the video were not actually practitioners.

Dilip says he can provide sources for this claim, but they all appear to be Falun Gong’s own websites. This does not meet the standard of verification that is needed.

• Falun Gong practitioners went to Tianjin College of Education, which published the magazine, and related governmental agencies and held peaceful protests.

What source, other than a Falun Gong website, verifies that the protest was peaceful? We know that 45 practitioners were arrested during this protest and it is likely that they were disrupting the normal course of business at this magazine publisher’s office, at the least.

7. A paragraph about the Zhongnanhai protest alleging that practitioners were beaten by the police and that the Chinese media reports of the protest were incaccurate. Material in the page called Persecution of Falun Gong is either not sourced at all, or cites one of Falung Gong's own websites:

• Some practitioners were arrested and were, according to reports, beaten by the police. Several days later, for 12 hours on April 25, about 10,000 people gathered at the Central Appeal Office at Foyou street, outside Zhongnanhai, the headquarters of Chinese Communist Government and lined up along a 2 km stretch. They held no signs and chanted no slogans. Premier Zhu Rongji met with some representatives of the practitioners and promised to resolve the situation within three days. The practitioners dispersed peacefully after they received word that Zhu had agreed to their requests. Nevertheless, it was widely reported by the Chinese media that Falun Gong practitioners organizing a protest in the heart of the Chinese Communist Party alarmed many senior leaders, particularly Jiang Zemin. According to some estimates, at this time there were more than 100,000 Falun Gong practitioners in Beijing alone. Some analysts claimed that about 70 million people practice it, which is more than the number of members in the Chinese Communist Party (about 60 million people).

This paragraph, which clearly represents a POV about what happened, does not have any source other than a Falun Gong website.

8. A subsequent paragraph in the same section which claims that 2,840 Falun Gong practitioners have died while in police or government custody in China.

• The Falun Dafa Information Center, a website which "endeavors to compile, cross-check, organize and publish" reports about the government crackdown on Falun Gong, has confirmed that at least 2,840 (March 2006) Falun Gong practitioners have died while in police or government custody.

The source provided for this information is one of Falun Gong’s own websites. If this claim cannot be verified by a non-Falun Gong source, it must be deleted.

9. In a subsequent paragraph, a sentence reporting unverified practitioners’ claims that practitioners are not encouraged to avoid, by practice, most conventional medicine:

• A frequent argument made by Chinese scientists is that followers are encouraged to avoid, by practice, most conventional medicine. Falun Gong practitioners point out that no such incident has been reported outside China and that such accusations surfaced only after the persecution started.

Even if this claim of practitioners came from a verifiable source other than a Falun Gong website, it is directly contradicted by the Master’ own teachings:

Taking medication during cultivation implies that you do not believe in the disease-curing effects of cultivation. If you believed in it, why would you take medication? Falun Gong, revised edition, Chapter Five, Questions and Answers, p. 82.

10. In a subsequent paragraph, an unverified claim that the Falun Gong is not “political”

• CCP claims that the practice has deviated its focus from engaging in spiritual cultivation to engaging in politics, basing their opinions on the existence of numerous websites disparate from, yet in support of, Falun Gong (such as Friends of Falun Gong). Due to an implication derived from its core principles, the teachings of Falun Gong are said to forbid any political involvement, and practitioners claim to have little interest in power or politics, the large number of protests to the crackdown notwithstanding. Falun Gong's supporters, such as The Epoch Times, tend to be conservative and anti-communist. Kangang Xu, a Falun Gong speaker, is the Chairman of the paper's board.

This unsourced material also violates Misplaced Pages’s policy against original research and NPOV. Editors cannot report the views of Falun Gong practitioners in this way to refute the claim of the CCP that the Falun Gong has turned “from engaging in spiritual cultivation to engaging in politics.” The second sentence contains a non-sequitur (the stuff about the conservative nature of the Epoch Times) as well as an unverified claim concerning an alleged implication deriving from Falun Gong’s core principles that is said “to forbid any political involvement.” Actually, the exact opposite is true: Li Honghzhi demands that his practitioners do everything they can to publicly undermine the CCP, with the explicit goal of reducing membership in the party by millions of people. (These numbers are updated in the Epoch Times, the paper Li’s disciples created to validate Li’s teachings. In the name of “validating the Dafa” Falun Gong practitioners are required to pursue Li’s political objective of overthrowing the Chinese Communist Party. This is an absolute requirement for one to be considered a Dafa disciple during this “Fa-rectification period” and Li reminds his practitioners of this requirement in all his lectures.--Tomananda 21:53, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Rewrite

My edits of June 1 consisted mainly of the following -

1) Replacing text removed by Tomananda that didn't have proper citation

2) Placing <citation needed> tags where appropriate, and rewriting where necessary to show amiguity or clarity

Rationale - It behooves us to allow time for proper citations to be found, as long as it's done in a timely manner and those bits are noted. Just like the debate of Fang & Deng, if citations are not provided in a few days then those passages can be removed or rewritten.

CovenantD 16:25, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Rutgers Journal source

I think this paper that appeared in the Rutgers Journal of Law and Religion can serve as a source for a most of the things which were found to be poorly sourced.

http://www-camlaw.rutgers.edu/publications/law-religion/new_devs/RJLR_ND_66.pdf

As for the opinion expressed by Falun Gong practitioners Falundafa websites like www.faluninfo.net can act as primary source.

Dilip rajeev 20:07, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually Dilip I don't think it will, at least for most of the problem areas. According to Wiki policy, the editor who has introduced material has the responsibilty of providing the sources, and just a blanket statment like this doesn't do that. You really do need to go through every "citation needed" entry and find the source. If your Rutgers Journal article has some of the material, then fine. But it's not some other editor's job to go through the work of finding what's there. --Tomananda 22:42, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Here are a few more insightful sources: http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/intlrel/hfa22579.000/hfa22579_0.HTM http://www.freedomhouse.org/religion/news/bn2005/bn-2005-11-15.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dilip rajeev (talk • contribs)

I think the article that the PDF link that Dilip provided is short enough (11 pages total) that being more specific isn't really needed, although I do recommend it. Dilip, since it's a PDF and has set pages, perhaps you could include which page number you're referencing when you use it. CovenantD 18:00, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Footnote to my last comment - I'm not judging the source itself at this point, just the way it's referenced in the article. I'm not going to challenge citations myself, from either side, but will help mediate debates about them. CovenantD 18:01, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Having said that, there is a conflict about to erupt. These two statements seem to contradict each other.

There being no concept of organization of membership in Falun Gong...

As for the opinion expressed by Falun Gong practitioners Falundafa websites like www.faluninfo.net can act as primary source.

If there is no formal organization, then there can be no source that speaks for all practitioners. The more accurate phrasing would be something like, "According to the website www.faluninfo.net ..." with a specific reference to the page that supports that claim. Thoughts? CovenantD 18:40, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Citation needed tag removed

Dilip, I see that you have again removed the tag from this bit - The campaign of government criticism begun in 1999 was considered by most observers to be largely ineffectual until January 2001... and I have to ask. Why? CovenantD 18:08, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought the source I provided at the end of the paragraph( not immediatley after) atleast indirectly alludes to that conclusion. Kindly let me know if that source will suffice.. Though it may be hard to find a source with the same wording...

Dilip rajeev 04:35, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Somewhere along the way it was changed to "The campaign of government criticism increased in January 2001..." I think the new wording works without a citation. Does that work? CovenantD 05:42, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Propaganda or incident itself?

"Observers believe that the incident is an attempt of the Chinese government to turn public opinion in China against Falun Gong to rally support for government crackdown."

According to the Rutgers paper cited:

"The propaganda capitalized on the alleged self-immolation of five Falun Gong members in Tiananmen Square on January 23, 2001 in which a mother died and her 12-year-old daughter was severely burned. “By repeatedly broadcasting images of the girl’s burning body and interviews with the others saying they believed self-immolation would lead them to paradise, the government convinced many Chinese that Falun Gong was an ‘evil cult.’”"

Note that there is no mention or allegations of the Chinese Government staging the incident itself, it just points out that the government is using the incident as an opportunity for propaganda. I'll remove the citation. --Yenchin 19:35, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Another possibility that is factual and allows the citation is to change it to "Observers believe that reaction to the incident is an attempt by the Chinese government to turn..."

One other thing I just noticed - it refers to observers, plural, but only includes one citation. Can another be located? CovenantD 20:38, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

The reason why I didn't change the text itself was because the current citation at least supports that some people (observers?) do believe that the incident is staged to cause negative opinion.

In the citation, written by Mediachannel.org editor Daniel Schetcher, he mentions these opinions from a newsperson and an organization. He himself also expresses that he thinks similarly.

I guess the final text will be up to everyone's opinion.

--Yenchin 21:52, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

There is a very well written incident involving falun Gong adherents in the third section of a book called Wild Grass by the author Ian Johnson, in case someone is curious to find out more.

Thanks, also here is a link to the book: http://www.randomhouse.com/pantheon/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780375421860 and the link from amazon with the review's http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/product-description/0375421866/ref=dp_proddesc_0/105-0754959-3963607?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books --HappyInGeneral 16:56, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Sky Net

I re-added the Sky Net bit for now, but it needs better explanation for why it's relevant. If it's not shown to have some major relevance in a few days, it needs to be removed. CovenantD 04:03, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

It is the undercover investigation by Sky Net on organ harvesting. I think it is relevant. Fnhddzs 17:31, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Time quote

Somebody commented out the Time quote and inserted a note saying the info was wrong. While a rebuttal from a reliable source may be included, Time is also considered a reliable source and use of their article is acceptable. If they issued a correction that may be included, but the sentence cannot be removed because a Falun Gong site disputes it.

I urge the commentor to make a more detailed explanation over here. The Daniel Schetcher essay says that the Western media believed what China sells about the incident. It addresses nothing about the Time article, in which it directly quoted a FLG member.

Also "facts were mis-represented in western media" doesn't directly conclude to "everything they report which gives a bad image to FLG is wrong".

--Yenchin 17:37, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Also let me get this straight, in the notes, it is mentioned:

• To be noted that Falun Gong had been supressed since 1999 and there was no official arm in Beijing at that time.

Are we missing something here? Falun Gong has been supressed since 1999, and we are still reading reports from FLG media about people getting arrested because of their FLG related activities. Using "supressed" to say "no official arm" is like saying there are no illegal activities because they're banned.

• The Time report doesn't say official arm.

Again I find this beyond reason. It doesn't say official so it isn't? By this logic lots of the so-called "evidence" raised to support the FLG POV could be waived in a puff of smoke.

--Yenchin 18:21, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

The book of "Poisonous Deceit"

ISBN 0-9731181-0-5 I added it back to external link. According to http://www.deep6-publishing.org/about.htm, the author has nothing to do with Falun Gong. And it is not self-published. Fnhddzs 17:32, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Improving this page

A lot of material that were on the article was either original research or lacking a source. The removed pictures have practitioners enacting alleged torture. The Sujiatun allegation has its own page, it is only appropriate for the info to be displayed there. --Samuel Luo 18:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Organ harvesting happens on numerous sites, not only Sujiatun. You cannot use Sujiatun to denote it. Also you tried to delete my numerous references. Also I scanned one word, you were talking about "olaf". That is really odd. This is a user name of our fellow wikipedia editor! How could you mention this name in your edits. I am sorry I cannot see any point you are improving the page. Please discuss before you made the huge change. Fnhddzs 21:05, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello, I don't understand the extra paragraph you added? We are talking about the persecution of Falun Gong. If you want to critise something, please move to the critism page. Fnhddzs 02:15, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Those pictures with practitioners acting in them have no place in wikipedia. You guys obviously have the whole video why not show it to people? --Yueyuen 04:40, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

So Fnhddzs, are you conceeding the point that the so called "Sujiatun harvesting" is faked? --Yenchin 05:31, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Yenchin Do you agree that all the material about organ harvesting should be compiled on one page? Also, are you interested in working with me to clarify the facts about "The Tiananmen Square self-immolation incident"? I can do better when there is a commitment. --Yueyuen 06:15, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I think Sujiatun does deserve a page of its own. It has been like a few months of news and a detailed page would be better. As for the Tiananmen Square self-immolation incident I can help since it is one of my interests on FLG. --Yenchin 06:51, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Sujiatun is just one of many sites involved in organ harvesting on live Falun Gong practitioners. We may need a page on organ harvesting on live Falun Gong practitioners, not only Sujiatun. Fnhddzs 00:44, 28 July 2006 (UTC) However, you deleted numerous references on organ harvesting. I should warn you by hiding the reports, you guys are committing a sin. Fnhddzs 00:49, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

This information below is very revealing. It should be included, however, with a neutral title. --Pirate101 04:18, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry I don't see its relevance with this article. In my view, it is just some point of view or misunderstanding based on one or two phrases of quotes without context. If you insist on putting somewhere, it may go to the critism article or we could address it some where related to the teachings. Fnhddzs 18:42, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Fnhddzs: Like lying and forged evidence as well as justification of such is not a sin? Yeah right. "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." -Richard Dawkins. --Yenchin 06:27, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Yenchin: Sorry but what do you mean by forged evidence? The organ harvesting on living people is an evil ever to happen on this planet. What could be more cruel if you are trying to hide these reports? Let's put down personal disputes and be focused on articles. Fnhddzs 18:38, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Fnhddzs, there are many contraraian facts agsint Falun Gong's allegation:

- US State Department investigation found no evidence: http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2006&m=April&x=20060416141157uhyggep0.5443231&t=livefeeds/wf-latest.html

- US Congressional investigation reported by The Australian discredits the claim also: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,18669046-7583,00.html

- Malaysian government documenting prior year official visit to the open-to-public joint venture hospital accused by Falun Gong: http://crc.gov.my/clinicalTrial/documents/Proposal/TCM_Stroke%20TrialProtocol%20synopsis.pdf

- Harry Wu of Laogai Research Foundation doubts FLG's claim: http://www.canadianchristianity.com/cgi-bin/bc.cgi?bc/bccn/0606/07chinese

- HK newspaper Takunpao's investigation discredits FLGs claim: http://www.takungpao.com/news/06/03/31/ZM-545907.htm

- A reporter's first hand experience with Falun Gong media outlet, Epoch Times: http://holidarity.blogspot.com/2006/04/organ-harvesting-controversy.html

- 2000 ClearWisdom story on Wang Bin, without mentioning of organ harvesting: http://clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2000/11/16/6164.html (Ref. Kilgour report Appendix 12, Case 1)

- The financial connection between Falun Gong and Epoch Times found in non-profit declarations (Form 990, Page 2, Part III c):

Southern USA Falun Dafa Association. $10,350 were given to Epoch Times in 2002, $22,700 in 2003, $14,750 in 2004: http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2002/760/692/2002-760692185-1-9.pdf http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2004/760/692/2003-760692185-1-9.pdf http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2004/760/692/2004-760692185-1-9.pdf

Falun Dafa Association of New England. $57,609 were spent on computer and print media, $97,755 in 2003, $116,823 in 2004: http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2002/043/576/2002-043576893-1-9.pdf http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2003/043/576/2003-043576893-1-Z.pdf http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2004/043/576/2004-043576893-02038ba1-9.pdf

(These are but two examples of the hundreds of FLG non-profits in USA. IMHO who pays for Epoch Times is not a secret.) bobby fletcher 13:08, 31 July 2006

Then who payed for Epoch Times? I think most workers are volunteers. I am one of distributors. Nobody pay me. I was trying to help on translation but I was too busy so I quit. Any free newspaper would have advertisements. The advertisements are from all kind of places, such as restaurants, insurance etc. Of course, volunteers contact potential clients to generate advertisements. I helped to take photos for advertisements. For all things like flyers, the money are payed by individual practitioners who make them. But nobody is asked to pay anything. Everything is voluntary. If I have more money, I would like to make more flyers or things like that since I know saving money is not as important as saving people and clarifying truth. You know what I mean. Fnhddzs 21:22, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Fnhddzs, that doesn't mean people are free to make up "Auschwitz" story. And I don't think the fact you are not paid can disprove the financial connection between Falun Gong and Falun Gong's propaganda arm Epoch Times.

Also, Harry Wu of Laogai Research Foundation just released his investigation - guess what? he also found the claim not credible: http://www.zonaSPAMLINK--Asdfg12345 20:37, 9 February 2007 (UTC)europa.com/20060806_1.htm --bobby fletcher 13:44, 10 August 2006 (PST)

That is a blog, as far as I know it's CCP controlled. Could you please find a more credible source? --HappyInGeneral 16:51, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

The cruelty of Falun Gong leadership

In the West, practitioners are perceived as heroic and admirable for daring to demand human rights from an authoritarian government. However, these heroes are really compelled by fear or baited by the spell their Master casts. Li’s scolding of those who have failed to break away from their family (Li calls it break away from humanness) attachment reveals all:

Some of the people …have had their lives extended through the Fa; some of them have received all kinds of benefits, such as good health, harmony in the family, indirect benefits to their relatives and friends, a reduction of their karma, and even Master’s bearing things for them… Despite this, when Dafa is about to consummate you, you are unable to step forward from humanness, and when the evil persecutes Dafa you are unable to stand up to validate Dafa. These people who only want to take from Dafa and not give for Dafa are, in the eyes of Gods, the worst beings. Moreover, this Fa is what’s fundamental in the cosmos, so those people who are still unable to step forward today will be weeded out after this tribulation is over.”

Reaching consummation is the goal of Falun Gong cultivation; practitioners are taught that they will become gods or Buddhas living in heaven. Li’s statement reveals a circumstance that the West does not see: these practitioners were not driven by their love of human rights but by Li's promises of heaven or threats of hell.

Giving up the Falun Gong under any circumstance is a sin, a disgrace according to Li: “Some students haven’t been able to endure amidst the agony of the persecution, and have done what a Dafa disciple absolutely should not and cannot do. That is a disgrace to Dafa.” He followed it up by explaining why willing to die for the Falun Gong benefits practitioners themselves:

If your righteous thoughts are truly strong, if you're able to put aside the thought of life and death, and if you're solid and unshakable like diamond, then those evil beings won't dare to touch you, because they know that other than killing you any type of persecution will be useless. The evil will have no choice but to leave you alone. If in this scenario the evil still persecutes you, then Master will show no leniency. Master has countless Law Bodies, and on top of this, there are countless righteous Gods helping me do things, and they will directly eliminate the evil, too. Didn't I tell you before that each of you Dafa disciples has eight types of Heavenly Law-Guardians protecting you? It's all because you haven't done well enough that all these Gods are being restrained by the old cosmos’s Fa-principles and can’t do anything, despite their really wanting to help.

So, when practitioners suffer they should blame themselves for not being worthy of the Master’s divine protection. Safety, not consummation is guaranteed here but only when one is willing to give up his or her life. Apparently, Li has thought of every angel to convince followers to “willingly” die for him.

Craig S. Smith from the New York Times noticed the lack of concern for the well being of practitioners from their Master. He reportes “Mr. Li's cryptic exhortations to followers on the Falun Gong Web site have grown increasingly strident, chastising those people who cannot endure torture or even death in defense of his cosmology, which holds that Falun Gong is engaged in a struggle with evil beings for the redemption or destruction of the universe. "Even if a dafa cultivator truly casts off his human skin during the persecution, what awaits him is still consummation," Mr. Li wrote a few days after the labor camp deaths. Dafa means great law or dharma, and refers to Falun Gong, which can be translated as Law Wheel Practice. Consummation is an apparently transcendent event that is the goal of all followers. "Any fear is itself a barrier that prevents you from reaching consummation," Mr. Li wrote.” — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pirate101 (talk • contribs)

Stop the persecution

No. friend. this world is not for persecuting good people. Nothing could be more cruel than hiding the facts. Think about what if your family and friends got organ harvested alive!! Speak righteously, for your own prospect! Fnhddzs 04:59, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Months ago, the title was persecution of Falun Gong. I just restored. Fnhddzs 19:38, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

It was moved from Persecution after much discussion, as you very well know. Many editors consider "Persecution" to be POV, as seen in archives of talk pages for the main article. CovenantD 17:22, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Facts are not based on some editors's subjective judgement. People not persecuted in person may not know the severity. We should be conscious and responsible. Don't make a deal with the evil. Fnhddzs 02:25, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Protected

I've protected this article from editing, there appears to be a long-running edit war going on with no discussion. Work out your differences here on the talk page, find consensus, and then the page will be unprotected. --Cyde Weys 01:24, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I have unprotected to ascertain the current status of any disputes. Fred Bauder 14:26, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Deletion?

Samuel said his stuff is deleted. However, in his revert, he deleted a lot of stuff with credible source. Now, I will add those first and then look at other different parts between two version. Fnhddzs 01:14, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Is Title of "Is the Tiananmen Square Self-immolation Incident Staged?" POV?

Or "the Tiananmen Square Self-immolation Incident" POV?

I think the latter is POV. CCP said it is self-immolation. But Falun Gong teachings said "committing suicide is sinful". And from the slow motion desctructs, the woman was beaten and fell down to the fire when she tried to stand up. And there are a lot of other self contradictory places. So Falun Gong website said it is staged. If it is staged, then it is murder not self-immolation.

The former has a question mark, it is NPOV. I think it is fair to use this title. Fnhddzs 02:33, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

A short piece of Slow motion deconstucts of the video broadcasted by Xinhua News Agency

I restored the image. Click the image you will find its copy right information. It is a valid source. Whether the whole video is needed or not could not support your removing the image in the article. Fnhddzs

Minor spelling mistake

Move to "Suppression of Falun Gong"; the word "suppression" is misspelled. Peter O. (Talk) 20:31, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

The current picture on the page

Regarding the caption of the arrest of peaceful protestors in Beijing. It would be more encyclopedic and opinion-neutral to state that they were Falun Gong protestors, not peaceful ones, as no context was given. Jsw663 08:45, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Does the PRC viewpoint need to be aired on this page?

The whole section may require at least a brief rebuttal by the PRC government's viewpoint as the page is filled entirely with Falun Gong's and anti-PRC-groups' viewpoints (mostly unproven allegations) only. Whilst the topic of this page inevitably means a pro-Falun Gong-bias, it would be unfair to only air one view, not to talk about contravening Wiki's policies. What are other people's views on this? Jsw663 16:36, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you provide the PRC point of view, like their justification for banning this cult? --Yueyuen 05:03, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

There would be several problems - a) I'm not a CCP member and thus cannot speak for the CCP, b) It is desperately hard to find any sources translated into English that can be easily accessible, e.g. via the internet, which explain the CCP view in sufficient detail, and c) Misplaced Pages usually requires sourced statements to be aired as it is encyclopedic. Moreover, since I am not an expert in the field, I don't think I can adequately provide these three points as I'd hardly be in the best position to do so. Jsw663 10:37, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Not that while we greatly prefer English sources, Chinese language sources will do. Obviously they have a unique set of problems but they're still acceptable. Also, AFAIK altho we prefer secondary sources, primary sources of government views and claims are generally accepted Nil Einne 12:29, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Spelling mistake of Wiki entry

Suppression is spelt with two 'p's... can an editor move this entire article into a correctly-spelt entry? Thanks. Jsw663 16:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Added NPOV tag

This article has many statements that are clearly POV, notably "in order to peacefully protest the hate propaganda against the Falun Gong." Canthony 17:47, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Wiki Links

Falun Gong should have a wikilink from this page. And perhaps it's not the only wording that is missing the wikilink. --213.157.175.121 16:56, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

To administrators, please add Falun Gong as wikilink in the Suppression of Falun Gong page. Thx. --213.157.175.121 16:40, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

You might want to use {{Editprotected}} Nil Einne 13:08, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Image warning

I've tagged the image Image:Tianamen beating.jpg as a possibly unfree image. Please check out Misplaced Pages:Possibly unfree images#January 18 for info why. It's normal practice to add {{subst:unverifiedimage}} to the image caption, so if an admin can do that it would be great Nil Einne 13:04, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Done --Robdurbar 17:38, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

reconciliation

Hello, I just noticed the reverting happening on this page. I have not had a chance to have a good look but it looks like there are two quite different versions of everything. I would like to combine them, one section at a time. Sentence by sentence and paragraph by paragraph, and all the unfit material can be discarded, with the only thing remained sourced and neutral material. There is a lot of unsourced stuff and very biased writing which is no good. I just reverted the page back to the pro-Falun Gong version. I hope it stays that way, but if not I will not revert it again until trying this approach. I will start another page and use it for this. It is quite okay for wikipedia to provide contrasting narratives, and I think that would be an even more complete article. However, if it is biased writing and has no sources, then it is not not up to wikistandards, we can't keep it, and it doesn't belong in the article. In two days I will spend a few hours on this. I will post the link here. Just in case anyone knows - how can I start a new page, just like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Falun_Gong/Introduction. It is a page set up just to handle the discussion of the introduction on the Falun Gong page. I would start a new page for discussing this page, cut and paste both versions and then go through them paragraph by paragraph, come up with a new version which included both, remove the biased content. Of course, I have my own biases so if there were some other person on the opposite side who wants to see a good article they should participate. Okay, stay tuned. --Asdfg12345 17:24, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Suppression_of_Falun_Gong/new_version#Introduction

That is where you can find the page. I will be reviewing first the background section, trying to come up with a neutral introduction, then going through step by step. It is harder than I thought. Anyone who wants to participate please do. I think this is a better way of handling it then constant reverting. I want to emphasise what we are trying to achieve: the neutral presentation of competing narratives. Well, maybe more than that, but I think in many ways that is in essence what needs to happen for everyone to be satisfied. I hope.--Asdfg12345 01:12, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Pause that idea since it seems irrelevant now that reverting has stopped. Plus maybe changes and additions can go directly onto the current article, which seems better than a large amount of working coming up with a neutral article independently. I don't think anyone paid attention anyway.--Asdfg12345 14:48, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

New image

let's talk about her picture here. --Yueyuen 21:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Her name was Gao Rongrong. She is dead now because the CCP tortured her to death. So far, there's nothing to talk about. If you have some concrete concerns you are welcome to raise them, and I would urge you to do so because we want to improve this article, make it well-sourced, clear and neutral, because we want good, well-sourced clear and neutral articles. But right now you are blanking content without adequate explanation, breaking wikipedia rules, and you need to stop doing it.--Asdfg12345 21:21, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Intro 2nd paragraph

I was wondering why the following was removed. I'm not making a conclusion that its removal was wrong. I'm just wondering why.

The reasons behind the ban are inconclusive, although several theories seem to have gathered common ground in the various academic studies related to Falun Gong. The dominant theory holds that Falun Gong's religious elements and offers of salvation became a challenge to the orthodox communist ideologies on which the Communist Party of China(CPC)'s power is rested upon, and as Falun Gong's members looked to exceed the number of CPC members, the central leadership under President Jiang Zemin began to fear the extent of Falun Gong's political and social influence. Another theory puts Jiang Zemin squarely to blame as he became jealous of the popularity of Falun Gong's founder Li Hongzhi.

Colipon+(T) 04:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

There are many one sided changes and removal of well sourced entry's. I'm making a list now. Thank you for your concern. --HappyInGeneral 04:50, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Who removed it anyway? Colipon+(T) 03:09, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Samuel Luo, see here: --HappyInGeneral 10:18, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Edit Protected page 2007-02-07

It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at History of Falun Gong. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{ESp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

see bellow

1. Reinsert image at right with coment

Gao Rongrong, was a Falun Gong practitioner, who died in custody in June after being detained in Longshan Reeducation through Labour facility in Shenyang, Liaoning province. Officials had reportedly beaten her in 2004, including by using electro-shock batons on her face and neck, which caused severe blistering and eyesight problems, after she was discovered reading Falun Gong materials. ]]

This image is of Gao Rongrong, see here:

2. Reinsert {{fact}} tags, this time with date.

Reason of removal: information blanking.

3. reinsert image ]

Reason of removal: information blanking (because there was no other reason provided).

4. reinsert paragraph

The reasons behind the ban are inconclusive, although several theories seem to have gathered common ground in the various academic studies related to Falun Gong. The dominant theory holds that Falun Gong's religious elements and offers of salvation became a challenge to the orthodox communist ideologies on which the Communist Party of China(CPC)'s power is rested upon, and as Falun Gong's members looked to exceed the number of CPC members, the central leadership under President Jiang Zemin began to fear the extent of Falun Gong's political and social influence. Another theory puts Jiang Zemin squarely to blame as he became jealous of the popularity of Falun Gong's founder Li Hongzhi.

Reason of removal: information blanking (because there was no other reason provided).

5. Change

“Falun Gong practitioners have claimed that the Zhongnanhai protest was their response to government suppression, but evidences show that this claim is questionable”

to

“Falun Gong practitioners have claimed that the Zhongnanhai protest was their response to government suppression, but critics allege that this claim is questionable.”

this is correct and it’s according to NPOV + revert was not justified in the first place.

6. Replace POV

Critics of the Chinese government, who are unaware of the Falun Gong's attacks against critics in China before the ban and the cultish nature of this group, has suggested it was the Zhongnanhai demonstration of April 25 that led to "fear, animosity and suppression".

with NPOV

Julia Ching from the University of Toronto, writing for the American Asian Review has suggested it was the Zhongnanhai demonstration of April 25 that led to "fear, animosity and suppression". In addition, Jiang Zemin had received a letter from the former director of the 301 Military Hospital, "a doctor with considerable standing among the political elite", endorsing Falun Gong and advising high-level cadres to start practicing it. Jiang also found out that Li's book, Zhuan Falun, had been published by People's Liberation Navy, and that possibly seven hundred thousand Communist party members were practitioners. Ching opines that "Jiang accepts the threat of Falun Gong as an ideological one: spiritual beliefs against militant atheism and historical materialism. He wishes to purge the government and the military of such beliefs." She also says that "the accusation of Falun Gong's being an "evil cult" made previous arrests and imprisonments "constitutional." Of course, the accusation was made after the government already had started to crack down on Falun Gong . The enumeration of features of an "evil cult" was done by political officials on political premises, not by any religious authority. It was an atheistic, Communist government, handing down an executive decision by the pronouncement of an "evil cult," without an explanation of what would be its opposite: a good cult, or a good religion." Similar theories about the fundamental reasons are also supported by Elizabeth J. Perry in Critical Asian Studies, a peer-reviewed quarterly journal.

Revert was not justified in the first place.

7. Add complete quote, or remove quote, don't quote out of context. Current quote is:

Recently, a few scoundrels from literary, scientific, and qigong circles, who have been hoping to become famous through opposing qigong, have been constantly causing trouble, as though the last thing they want to see is a peaceful world. Some newspapers, radio stations and TV stations in various parts of the country have directly resorted to these propaganda tools to harm our Dafa, having a very bad impact on the public. This was deliberately harming Dafa and cannot be ignored. Under these very special circumstances, Dafa disciples in Beijing adopted a special approach to ask those people to stop harming Dafa—this actually was not wrong. This was done when there was no other way (other regions should not copy their approach). But when students voluntarily approach those uninformed and irresponsible media agencies and explain to them our true situation, this should not be considered wrong.

the quote with the relevant context included is below:

Recently, a few scoundrels from literary, scientific, and qigong circles, who have been hoping to become famous through opposing qigong, have been constantly causing trouble, as though the last thing they want to see is a peaceful world. Some newspapers, radio stations and TV stations in various parts of the country have directly resorted to these propaganda tools to harm our Dafa, having a very bad impact on the public. This was deliberately harming Dafa and cannot be ignored. Under these very special circumstances, Dafa disciples in Beijing adopted a special approach to ask those people to stop harming Dafa—this actually was not wrong. This was done when there was no other way (other regions should not copy their approach). But when students voluntarily approach those uninformed and irresponsible media agencies and explain to them our true situation, this should not be considered wrong.

What I would like to tell you is not whether this incident itself was right or wrong. Instead, I want to point out that this event has exposed some people. They still have not fundamentally changed their human notions, and they still perceive problems with the human mentality wherein human beings protect human beings. I have said that Dafa absolutely should not get involved in politics. The purpose of this event itself was to help the media understand our actual situation and learn about us positively so that they would not drag us into politics. Speaking from another perspective, Dafa can teach the human heart to be good and it can stabilize society. But you must be clear that Dafa certainly is not taught for these purposes, but rather for cultivation practice.

Dafa has created a way of existence for the lowest level, mankind. Then, among various types of human behavior within the human form of existence at this level, which include collectively presenting facts to someone, and so forth, aren’t these one of the numerous forms of existence that Dafa gives to mankind at the lowest level? It is just that when humans do things, good and evil coexist. Thus, there are struggles and politics. Under extremely special circumstances, however, Dafa disciples adopted that approach from the Fa at the lowest level, and they completely applied their good side. Wasn’t this an act that harmonized the Fa at the level of mankind? Except under special extreme circumstances, this type of approach is not to be adopted.

Revert was not justified in the first place.

8. Complete sentence, current sentence:

The first arrest of Falun Gong practitioners occurred in April 1999. On April 11, 1999 the Science and Technology for Youth magazine in the city of Tianjin published an article containing negative remarks about the Falun Gong written by He Zuoxiu , a theoretical physicist. He also told the story of one of his colleagues who developed mental illness after practicing Falun Gong.

complete sentence:

The first arrest of Falun Gong practitioners occurred in April 1999. On April 11, 1999 the Science and Technology for Youth magazine in the city of Tianjin published an article containing negative remarks about the Falun Gong written by He Zuoxiu , a theoretical physicist who advocated against "youth practicing Qigong". He also asserted that he did not wish to see the young practice qigong, urging rather that they take up as many athletic sports as possible to help their bodies develop properly. He also told the story of one of his colleagues who, according to his claims, developed mental illness after practicing Falun Gong.

Revert was not justified in the first place.

9. add 2 links:

1. Pulitzer Prize Articles 1: A Deadly Exercise: Practicing Falun Gong Was a Right, Ms. Chen Said, to Her Last Day,
2. Pulitzer Prize Articles 10: Death Trap: How One Chinese City Resorted to Atrocities To Control Falun Dafa

Done for now, if anyone has any other change request or comment please post them here. --HappyInGeneral 05:13, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I request this be re-added. It was removed in the same fashion as the rest with no explanation. The writing in thesection about the incident refers to this video, this particular cut from it in particular. --Asdfg12345 16:24, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The "False Fire" Fiasco

Beneath is the reasons for my fhttp://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/button_hr.png Horizontal line (use sparingly)uture edits once the article is unprotected.

1. "Though there are questions..." Cite the source, please.
2. Eason Jordan who was in Washington, was obviously guessing ("could not have come from"), unaware of the situation, in the original report has shown:"Moments later four more people set themselves alight as military police detained the CNN crew, which had been taping the events." Emphasis mine.
3. Also, , "The CNN crew that attempted to film the scene was detained by police and a tape was confiscated.The producer did get a small tape out by hiding it in her clothes when police weren't watching. " Emphasis mine.
4. Not to mention we see a FLG member whining to the main reporter over here:, not even questioning the source of the video.
5. Upholdjustice.org is a Falun-Clone.
6. You guys are misquoting and twisting Philip Pan again.
7. On Wang Jindong: Yeah right, praising FLG is "not to be found within the teachings of FLDF". Li never calls himself the "Main/Lord Buddha", it is not mentioned in any FLG lecture, yet we see repeating examples of such praise. If FLGers still want to raise this point on WJD, then the text needs to be modified.
8. "some commentators....persecution". Then you cite Chandra Smith, where she says nothing about such an "calculated attempt", she just says that the government used this incident as a chance to accuse FLG. Please don't put words in other's mouths.
9. I'm sorry, New Tang Dynasty Television is another Falun-clone, which basically means the so-called "analysis" means nothing. Not to mention that there are no source, or mentioning of the people who are conducting this so-called "analysis".
10. Not to mention the laughable piece:Police were carrying pieces of fire-fighting equipment on the day of the self-immolations, when they were not normally known to carry fire extinguishers on duty.Source of this? Pray tell the source of policemen carrying extinguishers on duty all over the Tiananmen Square? As well as policemen not having fire-extinguishing equipment?
11. Liu Chunling's "severe blow": Speculation.
12. "surveillance cameras in Tiananmen Square are usually fixed." SOURCE? Did the FLGers found this out by using their pineal glands?
13. "His sitting position also does not reflect the full or half lotus position as in the Falun Dafa teachings." Photos from Minghui.net also show people sitting in Wang Jindong's way, LHZ also made a comment on the position showing that it wasn't uncommon.
14. "proper care of severe victims" Source?
15. "speak and sing clearly mere days" Odd?
16. And IED has never released their investigations and reports. Someting worth mentioning.
17. Resolution 188 is irrelevant to the whole incident.

--Yenchin 16:33, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Hello. As for the comments about the video "False Fire", that are simply being reported in wikipedia. It says that those are comments the video makes. If that was not made clear we can make it clear. It is just reporting some points contained in "False Fire", and it is quite okay to keep it there. If police carry firefighting equipment all the time and that is in another source we can include it, too. But what the video says should still be reported. We cannot prove what the sources are saying, we can only report the sources. It is fine to make some NPOV changes and I think you have pointed out some valid suggestions. Content can be altered, and content can be added. If content is sourced and neutrally presented it should not simply be removed like that. If you want to remove some stuff there should be a bit more discussion about how valid that is, but I am all for NPOV changes. If you have a source for the things that are relevant, then include that content! It is really simple. We are just presenting the material as it is available and reporting it neutrally. I support that, and if you want to draw attention to a whole lot of the problems you see and which you have sources for then please include it. Don't delete content that is sourced and relevant. I won't response to your comments individually. I am supporting the idea behind what you are doing but not the execution of it. This statement from Resolution 188 is pretty relevant: "Propaganda from state-controlled media in the People's Republic of China has inundated the public in an attempt to breed hatred and discrimination." Put tags on the content you see as problematic. The only thing that should come of all this is a better and more neutral reporting of the situation. --Asdfg12345 18:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi Yuenyin's I have 2 observations to your comments:

15. Check out the copy-right on: . This was not available before 2004. "© 2004-2007 PASSY-MUIR INC. 062806". This actually proves that in 2001 there was no such system available.

17. Resolution would not exist if there would be no state terrorisms in China recognized by the United States government. Anyway this is a well sourced source so it should be present. --HappyInGeneral 10:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Reply to all above:

1. There is no mention of the False Fire video anywhere in the article besides a whole comment on burn treating and tracheotomy. Far from proper use of such a citation.
2. I haven't objected to the usage of posting False Fire, however, the poor credibility of the video will be shown in my edits.
3. Resolution 188 says nothing of the incident because the only relevant part is that the incident is being reported on the news. It is more like a general statement on FLG in Chinese State media. A better place for it would be in some generic portion of the "Suppression" article or a portion itself.
4. "2004". Wrong, in this case it means that the website was established on 2004, if you read the "history" portion of the website, you'll see that the company started in 1985.
5. Read "3" of my reply.

--Yenchin 16:03, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay res.188 is not there. take discussion to the appropriate page, and we can take up these points there. A lot of what you said is good so we should definitely incorporate it.--Asdfg12345 19:41, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Sentence at the beginning needing a source

I think Colipon put this one in. I am stating my intention to remove it if there is no source is provided or no response to this note is given indicating that a search for a source is now in progress. I won't delete it right now. --Asdfg12345 19:41, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

People's Daily as a source

In reference to this edit, as many who read Chinese edit this article, there would seem to be no problem, as any mistranslation would be rapidly caught. However, poking around with the search engine on the English version will probably yield the same page in English. Regarding the People's Daily as a reliable source, sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Much depends on the subject matter and context. But the same is true of the New York Times, which at times is simply a mouthpiece for the United States government. One must be familiar with the political culture of the country to made an adequate determination. In general, the government of China, which controls the People's Daily, is biased with respect to Falun Gong. That should not have to be said, it is so obvious. Use of a biased source is usually unacceptable. That said, whether to use a particular article as a reference is a matter of editorial judgement. Opinions may differ.Fred Bauder 15:16, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

First background section - important message

Hello

In about 3 days time (70 hours or so hours), I intend to invest a lot of time on the first section. I hope editors have been keeping up with the important discussion between Olaf and Jsw on the main talk page. In light of our collective, growing recognition of the need to abide by wikipolicies and produce neutral and well-sourced articles, and also given the many tags calling for sources that have sat on quite a lot of the material in the abovementioned section for a while now, I would like to say here that I intend to remove much of this content in about 3 and a half days. Of course, I will not do this under the conditions that:

• sources meeting wikirequirements are provided;
• discussion is initiated here indicating that sources are being sought for;
• maybe some other declarations from other editors requesting that I should not proceed or indicating why it is not a good idea to proceed;

There could be other factors involved. I will remove that material and start putting sourced material in. I will probably spend upwards of 4 or 5 hours doing this. I will just put some Templates there now.--Asdfg12345 20:37, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Time Out

Armedblowfish: At what point does an editor get stopped in his tracks? If Asdfg's blatant announcment above, together with his repeated assertions on the main article talk page that he will delete what he considers to be "falacious" here, on the Epoch Times page, and presumably all pages don't constitute grounds for an administrative sanction of some sort, I don't know what does. We are supposed to operate by consensus and for the most part editors on both "sides" of this debate have tried to honor consensus decsions. But as Firestar has pointed out on multiple occassions, Asdfg actually demands the right to take unilateral actions which he feels are justified. Witness what he says above, and witness the series of edits he and others have done to change the Suppression of Falun Gong page into an anti-CCP propaganda piece. I am requesting that you take action now to stop Asdfg in his POV warrior campaign. --Tomananda 03:12, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

1. American Asian Review, Vol. XIX, no. 4, Winter 2001, p. 12
2. American Asian Review, Vol. XIX, no. 4, Winter 2001, p. 12
3. Critical Asian Studies 33:2 (2001), pp. 170-171
4. American Asian Review, Vol. XIX, no. 4, Winter 2001, pp. 12-13
5. ibid., p. 9
6. Critical Asian Studies 33:2 (2001)
7. From "Digging Out the Roots", by Li Hongzhi, July 6, 1998
8. Full text in Chinese of He Zuoxiu's article
9. American Asian Review, Vol. XIX, no. 4, Winter 2001, p. 7
10. Full text in Chinese of He Zuoxiu's article
11. American Asian Review, Vol. XIX, no. 4, Winter 2001, p. 7

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