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Tennis Project‑class

This page is within the scope of WikiProject Tennis, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles that relate to tennis on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.TennisWikipedia:WikiProject TennisTemplate:WikiProject Tennistennis Project This page does not require a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Tennis To-do: edit history watch purge Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Cleanup : Take an item off the Cleanup listing Copyedit : Roger Federer, Leander Paes, Rafael Nadal, Justine Henin – to be used as examples for ideal page structures Expand : Grab a Start article and expand it, or peruse the List of articles. Photo : Add photos to Tennis or Tennis people articles Stubs : Bring a Stub up to our standards. Other : *Sign up as a member of the project. Tag more articles with our standard project template. Help with the creation of yearly main articles and drawsheets for every Open Era ATP and WTA tournament.

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Championship vs. Championships

Coming from a brief conversation at User_talk:Ytfc23#Championships ... I find things like 2016 Nielsen Pro Tennis Championships where "Championships" seems to be inappropriately plural. I just did a fix at 2015 Nielsen Pro Tennis Championship and related articles, but wanted to get more input before continuing in that direction. Back when nielsenprotennis.com existed, it only used the singular, as far as I've found (but I didn't look further back than 2015); see archived 2016 page. OK to fix these? Is there a similar issue in other championships? User:Ytfc23 suggests that maybe Brits use plural and Americans use singular. Comments? Dicklyon (talk) 03:49, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Not sure. I recall we had a Tennis Project discussion and I believe the consensus was to always use "championships." It appeared to be the most common term and we wanted to be consistent. I think that's the way it happened but @Wolbo: was more a part of the conversation than I was. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:25, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

To my recollection we mostly use the plural form because tournaments usually consist of more than one event. That is the reason why the 1877–1883 Wimbledon tournaments are called Championship (only one event) but as of 1884 they are called Championships because there are several events and therefore several titles (champions). I don't think it is a specific British-US distinction. Most of the sources I know have the various official U.S. championships (national, indoor, clay) in plural form, but the U.S. Men's Clay Court Championship is currently in singular form. In summary, we usually go with the plural form, however, if reliable sources say otherwise we should follow that.--Wolbo (talk) 18:06, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

OK, I will attempt to continue to fix the Nielsen to singular, since that's the official and common form for that one, and I won't worry about others unless I stumble into them at some point. Dicklyon (talk) 04:44, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Capitalization of Singles and Doubles and such

One more thing: on these I was working on, and probably on others, I find " – Singles" and " – Doubles" on titles, where the capitalization does not seem justifiable. So I'm downcasing those. Any objections? Dicklyon (talk) 04:48, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

On tennis article titles it is Women's Singles and Men's Doubles. That is the normal use in tennis. I know the Olympics Project has a different idea and we agreed to use lower case for them since other Olympic articles do the same, but it is a proper phrase in tennis. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:57, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

I'm not asking about that phrase, just about the isolated "singles" and "doubles". Dicklyon (talk) 05:01, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

But wait, does the capitalization from the title leak into the infobox? See 2010 Nielsen Pro Tennis Championship – singles which I downcased. I don't understand templates well enough to get what's happening here. Anyone want to comment on the right way forward? Dicklyon (talk) 04:57, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure. This Indian Wells article title would be correct as is the prose. If all we see is the word "singles" I'm not so sure. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:02, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't know what "a proper phrase in tennis" means, either. Book sources don't cap these much. Also not capped at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Tennis/Article guidelines. Dicklyon (talk) 05:22, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

A proper name... like "Open Era" should be capitalized. Under our guidelines under "Article types and recommended practices" it says Draw articles, 2008 US Open – Men's Singles, 2007 Brasil Open – Singles. And if you are talking about the infobox at 2010 Nielsen Pro Tennis Championship – Singles, those are their own section beginnings... I would assume Singles and Doubles would be capitalized there since it's like the start of a sentence. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:46, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

I of course understand that we capitalize proper names; I just wasn't sure if "a proper phrase in tennis" was some conventional thing I need to learn about. From looking at usage in books, it looks to me like "men's singles" and such are not usually capitalized. These terms are pretty clearly not proper names of anything, right? As for the infobox title, I agree they should use sentence case; but the template makes that hard if they're not sentence case in the title. I don't see anything in the guidelines and conventions about this case issue. Dicklyon (talk) 01:11, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

And MOS:SENTENCECAPS says When an independent clause ends with a dash or semicolon, the first letter of the following word should not be capitalized, even if it begins a new independent clause that could be a grammatically separate sentence: Cheese is a dairy product; bacon is not., suggesting that we also not cap Men's, Women's, etc., since those are routinely lowercase in sentences and the after-dash context is not to be treated like the start of a sentence. I think I'll work on downcasing all these purely descriptive topic narrowing phrases. Any objections? Dicklyon (talk) 21:45, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Here's a tennis template that gets it right (not overcapping singles and doubles, but using sentence case for each linked item):

Because that template is out of context. It's just got two words and nothing else. All you have is the phrase Women's singles. You would also write "I lost my ring in the tar pits." But of course you would also write "I went to the La Brea Tar Pits." Just as many sources say Australian Open - Mixed Doubles. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:48, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Nice one -- last time I was at the La Brea Tar Pits was almost 50 years ago, and I got a ticket on the way home for failing to stop for a pedestrian; that was fun but annoying. But this tar pit is different. Hardly anyone caps "Women's Singles" in sentences, especially with the dashed construct. It's not a name, or part of a name. Books say "Australian Open mixed doubes": , in sentences. Why don't we use that as title? Dicklyon (talk) 03:08, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

That would suck. I think I was there about 10 years ago but no traffic issues. I agree that hardly anyone would capitalize "women's singles" as that could mean anything... even a bunch of single women. :-) No problem there. But when put together with Australian Open they do, and I gave you a bunch of sources to prove it... some even with the hyphen. It is part of the name of the event when narrowing it down to discipline. Borg didn't win Wimbledon, he won 1980 Wimbledon Men's Singles over John McEnroe. It's not the "Wimbledon drinking fountains" we are talking about here. Men's Singles is an event name category at Wimbledon. I don't see why we would change countless thousands of articles over an item that has sources both ways. Especially when there are so many other items that actually need fixing in articles. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:49, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Nobody would do what I showed you several sources doing? There are lots more that do that. Similarly with women's singles. Dicklyon (talk) 04:16, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

More discussion about dashes in sporting event titles

See WT:Article titles#Dash in sporting event titles. Please say there if you understand something about the meaning or history or use of these dashed titles. Dicklyon (talk) 06:50, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

It seems that downcasing the stuff after the dash (e.g. "– men's singles") would be most consistent with WP style. Dicklyon (talk) 01:56, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

But not per longstanding Tennis Project Guidelines and sourcing. Please don't downcase. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:21, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm thinking we'd need an RFC on this; it goes beyond tennis, but tennis is an outlier in the double capping. Can you point me at relevant guidelines or past discussions in the tennis context? Dicklyon (talk) 01:13, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

I don't think it's worth an RFC. The sub-titles could always be justified as proper nouns, so MOS:SENTENCECAPS wouldn't apply. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 01:40, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Plus did you see the draft RFC of Dicklyon? I love D..."D. Do nothing, continue to have random meaningless style variations." No bias there. Meaningless is baloney as many sources use this "meaningless" capitalization. I can't speak for other sports so maybe those sources are different, but it's often a proper name in tennis. I also love the example of no capitalization after the Dash...2013 Nielsen Pro Tennis Championship – singles. It's not capitalized because he just moved it! And the Olympic aberration is because we pretty much came to an agreement to use the Olympic Project nomenclature and Olympic sources rather than Tennis Project usage. Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:57, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I saw that; I wrote it. As for "proper nouns", I'm not seeing how one would get there. How do these things that are not proper names get to be proper names when within the sphere of Wikiproject Tennis? And what is the meaning of the capitalization there that different from other sports or other contexts? You introduced the concept of "a proper phrase in tennis" above, but never explained it. Dicklyon (talk) 02:13, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

It's not "within the sphere of Wikiproject Tennis". Sources do treat these terms as proper nouns. We didn't make up that usage. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 02:37, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Can you show me where I can find evidence of that? I see overwhelmingly lowercase of things like "men's singles" in sources. There may be specific tournament names in which these are capped, but not in the format that we have in our article titles. And it's different in the context of Olympics and other multi-sport international events; where does that come from? "Olympic sources" versus "Tennis Project usage" as Fyunck says? Dicklyon (talk) 04:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Really? I'm surprised that a stand alone Men's Singles got any percentage at all. And look what happens when you remove the apostrophe. It's when it's used in context of the event title that things change, such as at ESPN. Or even IBM stat tracker where everything is capitalized. We didn't capitalize everything. But sources such as the Australian Open draw sheet or the US Open draw are the things that influenced opinions here. You know you ask why we did certain things but from your draft rfc and your ngram with no context it seems like all you want is to get rid of it no matter what. There are many examples within the sport such as Australia's Sky Sports, 2016 SBNation chart. Sure, in a sentence alone it's usually men's singles, but as a header or draw chart it is usually not. Actually we often see all caps more often than not.

Are you not aware that we base capitalization decisions on usage in sentences? See MOS:CAPS. Also note that the usage without apostrophe is very rare, compared to with: . Dicklyon (talk) 05:16, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

When you use the term men's singles in prose it's usually not capitalized. When used as Wimbledon Men's Singles it's a different story. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:29, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

If the article titles were like Wimbledon Men's Singles and that was found capped in most sources (which is contrary to fact), we wouldn't be having this conversation. Dicklyon (talk) 05:36, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Of course there are examples of women's singles also as you've shown and years ago the project decided the doubles caps was the best per most drawsheet headers and went ahead and created 10s of thousands of articles based on that. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:05, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

"Per most drawsheet headers" seems like a plausible explanation of where this over-capitalization came from. That's not a reason to not fix it. Dicklyon (talk) 05:16, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

This is obviously a per peeve of yours. I would say if it ain't broke, don't fix it. There are so many things that really need fixing on Misplaced Pages and this isn't one of them. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:29, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, over-capitalization is a pet peeve of mine. It's broken (in a few corners of WP) and ought to be fixed. Dicklyon (talk) 05:36, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Basically, all I'm hearing is "tennis is special". That's a problem, not an answer. Dicklyon (talk) 06:19, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Then you aren't listening and your "pet peeve" may be the cause. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:48, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

My Wimbledon Gentlemen's/Ladies' → Men's/Women's move request closed as move to e.g. "Men's singles". This has had the effect of the event link corresponding to the current article no longer being bolded in the event links section of the infoboxes of those articles (example), which is undesirable. This can't be addressed however until all tennis draw articles have a standard capitalization, after which time the infobox template can be updated.

Dicklyon, now that there is precedent to change the capitalization, I will support your RFC, but please make it about sports articles only, as otherwise editors might object to non-sports page moves where there are probably many exceptions, turning the discussion into a WP:Trainwreck. You can always make a separate discussion for non-sports pages. Sod25 (talk) 07:09, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Singling out sports pages only? That seems very wrong. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:14, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

No - I specifically said another discussion could be started for non-sports pages. Consensus to move one tennis draw article or set of sports articles essentially mean consensus to move them all given their formulaic nature. Non-sports articles will probably have to be discussed on a more article-by-article or topic area-by-topic area basis for a solid consensus to be reached. Sod25 (talk) 07:35, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

And I would not single out sports articles by any stretch. If 20,000 articles are going to be moved just in tennis alone then every article at Misplaced Pages should be in on it... no exceptions at all regardless of sources. We would let all projects know about what will be happening if it's done piecemeal. Don't you see how unfair this sounds? Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:48, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

I don't assign the concepts of "fair" and "unfair" to matters as trivial as the capitalization of the title of an internet page. This issue only interests me in so far as the templates, which I have put time into improving, are concerned. Sod25 (talk) 08:16, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Well I do look at things as fair or unfair. To many times things get handled poorly and then that change gets used to hurt other projects. It may be trivial (if it's trivial why change countless thousands of articles for triviality) but precedent gets set to do more and more. That seems shady to me and the same type thing has happened to less trivial matters. If it's demanded of sports it should be demanded on all biography, science, politics, and other projects... sourced or not. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:36, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

I think I agree, at least to part of what you're saying. That's why I work on style issues across all topic areas. It just so happens that I found a particularly odd large cluster of apparent over-capitalization in tennis, and I'm trying to understand it and get to consensus about what to do about it. One can't find and fix all problems at once. I'm working on another big cluster of overcapitalization of "province" and "district" in Southeast Asia. I don't see any sensible way one would combine these efforts, or work on all such clusters at once. Dicklyon (talk) 20:57, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

On that draft RFC at User:Dicklyon/DashTitleCapsRFC, I'd be happy to have more comments on how to improve it before I "launch" it. I changed the options around a bit to read less biased. Dicklyon (talk) 04:32, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

I tweaked and added notes to the draft. Be aware though, if this RfC is implemented, since it could affect millions of articles besides sports I plan on notifying many projects about what is happening, especially entertainment awards and their subsidiaries. If this could affect every project in the future by citing precedent, then every project it could affect needs to know about this right now. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:22, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, there's some potential to affect the entertainment awards. Where else do you see potential effects of what we're talking about here? I compiled a list of two-part titles with spaced en dashes at User:Dicklyon/spaced dash titles, and it's dominated by sports events (I ran into text size limits, so only got about half the list into the table there, even after excluding the most common pattern ending in "Singles" or "Doubles" -- see quarry query). I think another common error pattern would be fixed by just replacing the spaced en dash by unspaced en dash (like Rolls – 28), but it takes a lot of work to find and verify, especially in foreign-language cases. Some just should probably have a space and no dash, like Las Vertientes – Reserva Natural Privada. Others, like ÄWPK – Älywapaa palokunta, just need to have one of the redundant parts removed. And some just need to use standard subtitle punctuation with colon, like Revealed – Live in Dallas. Dicklyon (talk) 04:10, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

And where can I read about this longstanding compromise consensus with Olympics that you've mentioned? Sorry if you already said and I missed it. Dicklyon (talk) 04:35, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

National team or Davis Cup/Billie Jean King team

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. However, 力's proposal of "X at the Davis Cup" has some merit and I'd like to see discussion on that without it being unduly influenced by this discussion. Sceptre (talk) 03:19, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

• Austria Davis Cup team → Austria men's national tennis team
• Australia Davis Cup team → Australia men's national tennis team
• Great Britain Davis Cup team → Great Britain men's national tennis team
• Austria Billie Jean King Cup team → Austria women's national tennis team
• Australia Billie Jean King Cup team → Australia women's national tennis team
• Great Britain Billie Jean King Cup team → Great Britain women's national tennis team

– I want to move to proper name and per WP:COMMON. --Ruling party (talk) 15:13, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

1. No one calls these teams " team", especially not the mouthful "Great Britain Billie Jean King Cup team". Neither on their own websites (daviscup.com or billiejeankingcup.com) or the associated webpages. See Its "team" and "national team" and "country competition team". "Medvedev to join today national team for 2021 Davis Cup, says Russian tennis chief", Hungarian Tennis Miracle: National Team Plays Davis Cup Final This Weekend same here in spanish... No one calls these teams by competition name - it is not normal and not WP:COMMON
2. It is more common to call these teams "national team" and "team".. Official pronouncements are very clear: ""cheer on their favorite team at the Davis Cup Finals by submitting messages of support for the national teams competing in the Davis Cup by Rakuten Finals", "Victory over Slovakia returns the Czech Republic to the top category of world tennis with a renewed team. Although they continue to enjoy the experience of Jiri Vesely and Lukas Rosol, the captain has had to make up for the loss of Radek Stepanek and Tomas Berdych from the national team. Jonas Forejtek and Jiri Lehecka are his bet for the future." "Sasnovich replied when asked whether being back together in the national team felt strange after so many months competing" "Each stadium will host its national team at the group stage. Albert Costa, Director of the Davis Cup Finals" The website "daviscupfinals.com" has never used the term "country Davis Cup team". Never a quick Google search proves!
3. The players and capteins don't call it "country comeptition team". Anders Håseth: "We think Davis Cup is good for tennis in the country and to have more team matches, and more youngsters seeing national team competition" Samsonova: ""It means too much to me (to be a part of this). It was a dream for to play for the national team" Naito: "“I will do my best to contribute to the Japan national team."
4. The Davis Cup/Billie Jean King Cup are organised jused like FIFA World Cup or any other world cup for that matter... Who organises it? the international sport's federation! Who appoints the captain of the national team? The national sport association. This is a World Cup, and yes tennis is to cool to actually name their competition the "World Cup" - rather they market it as "The World Cup of Tennis". But it is!
5. Moving these pages would also make the articles more searchable. And hell... all national teams - as far as I know of on Misplaced Pages - are named national team. England national football team Norway men's national handball team Russia men's national ice hockey team
6. Some might say, but what about the ATP Cup? The ATP Cup is not organised by the international sport association and has no involvement by the national tennis associations.. That easy.
7. I see many people arguing that its not WP:PRECISE? How is not precise? Is the England national football team not precise?
8. Organisation: the Davis Cup is organised in a structure. While the teams of the ATP Cup and Hopman Cup exist and dissolve before and after every tournament the team structure of the Davis Cup does not. Leon Smith works as team captain. In Norway we have "landslagsansvarlig" (meaning "Responsible Officer of the National Teams") and landslagskaptein (CAptain of the National Team). The Swedish Tennis Assocation refers to the team as "landslaget" which plays "landskamper" (national matches). The Danish Tennis Association calls it landsholdet (again, meaning national team).
9. The Hopman Cup doesn't call their teams "national teams". A quick search on their websites proves that they have never referred to one of their team as "national teams". The ITF doesn't either. That is: no one refers to the Hopman Cup teams as national teams, which means that they're not national teams.

1. By refusing to change name you're refusing to accept the basic truth: the national tennis associations themselves call these teams the "National Teams"

Does this make sense? It really should....

Suggestion: Move all team to "country men's national team" and "country women's national team".

• Note: by refusing to change structure people are proving that Wikipedians are less interested in truth and more interested in keeping things to their liking. No one calls these teams "Davis Cup teams" or "Billie Jean King Cup teams". You all know it. --Ruling party (talk) 15:13, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose - It looks like you are already doing it. STOP. This will require some thought at Tennis Project. You don't ask and start doing it. The title is more precise when you use Davis Cup or Billie Jean King Cup teams. Davis Cup has called it the United States Davis Cup Team so your suggestion that no one calls it that is false. Heck in 1933 they were calling it the United States Davis Cup Team. Article after article uses xx Davis Cup Team. And how about Tennis Canada? This mass moving without consensus needs to be reverted. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:43, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@Fyunck(click): You are both right and wrong. Before the 2019 ITF reforms of the national competitions it was not unormal that they called the national teams "Davis Cup teams".. It has, however, stopped 100 percent since that time. Now no, or at the very least, very few call them "Davis Cup team". Just search the daviscup.com or billiejeankingcup.com on their webpages from 2019 onwards.

In addition, you're argument "move without consensus" doesn't start a discussion. If you want a discussion partake in it know. It is happening now no matter how stupid I was. --Ruling party (talk) 10:50, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

You shouldn't be rewarded with a discussion AFTER you do all the damage. That's putting the cart before the horse. It should all be moved back and then the situation should be discussed. However you are still incorrect. During and within the event it is most common to use Team USA, Team Chile, Team France, etc... But there is also plenty of xxx Davis Cup Team since 2019. https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story/sports/tennis/2021/11/22/reilly-opelka-united-states-davis-cup-team-open-play-italy/8702312002/ Here is this month], https://bolavip.com/en/sports/john-isner-and-reilly-opelka-lead-team-usa-lineup-for-2021-davis-cup-finals--20211025-0011.html here is last month], Tennis World three days ago, Tennis Australia uses both terms, Australian News, and also Tennis Canada. You make it sound like the term is extinct when it looks pretty vibrant to me. It is a bit of a mouthful to say the Russian Billie Jean King Cup winner, so I'm sure it will be shortened as much as possible throughout an article, but when you're being as precise as you can to our readers, National Tennis Team doesn't make the cut. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:15, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

• Strong oppose - Per WP:PRECISE. The proposed titles are too vague for the subjects of these articles. These article deal with Davis Cup and Fed/Billie Jean King Cup teams only. "National team" does not accurately describe these subjects as national tennis teams also take part in other events like the Hopman Cup and the Summer Olympics.Tvx1 14:08, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

But that is not true @Tvx1: The Hopman Cup is not organised or has any involvement from the national tennis associations and is therefore not a national competition in any formal understanding of the term. For those articles, the ATP Cup and the Hopman Cup, the most correct term would be "Great Britain at the ATP Cup" or "Great Britain at the Hopman Cup" per everyother naming convention that exists here on Misplaced Pages. --Ruling party (talk) 15:02, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

The Hopman Cup is organized but the exact same organisation, the International Tennis Federation, that organizes the Davis and Billie Jean King cups. Moreoever, it is officially marketed as the World Cup for mixed teams. The national tennis associations do not organize the Davis Cup or Billie Jean King cups either. And as a mentioned, there is also the olympics which does have involvement from national associations. Your analogy with other sports just doesn't work. Norway men's national handball team, for instance, deals with a team that competes in World Cups, European Championships, Olympics etc... The tennis articles you renamed deal ONLY with those two cups. Therefore the proposed changes runs afoul of WP:PRECISE.Tvx1 15:17, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

And that is a key entity here. National team sounds like a country forms a national team to compete in all national events like Olympics, Hopman Cup, Billie Jean King Cup, ATP Cup... and that does not happen. It's not precise enough. I'm not saying it might not also be ok with "Brazil in the Billie Jean King Cup", but that's a different RFC and you wouldn't just move every article and then ask if it was ok. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:50, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

• Comment First, I was very tempted to remove the WP:RM listing as malformed. I'm not going to do that (nor complain at ANI about the fait accompli attempt) but someone else may well do so. Second -- the style Austria Davis Cup team feels wrong, but Austria men's national tennis team is not better and doesn't seem to be accurate. Perhaps Austria in the Davis Cup (a parallel construction to Austria in the Eurovision Song Contest) would be better? (or "at" as suggested above) User:力 (powera, π, ν) 17:32, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@力: Better than nothing, but you seem to forget that the ITF does not agree with you: ". Team Captains also supported the launch of the name change by informing the national team players and posting on their own social channels. Billie Jean King (BJK) sent a personal WhatsApp audio message to players, shared by the Captains, saying how proud she is to represent the players, the nations and this historic competition" Again ITF: Cihak, who spent eight years as a coach for Czech Republic’s Davis Cup team when the likes of Tomas Berdych and Radek Stepanek were on national team duty"... Even official ITF rules refer to the teams as national teams. another rule that calls the teams national team

I might be wrong, as you say, about the Hopman Cup.. But I can't find one single source by the ITF that refers to the Hopman Cup as a national team competition. They call it a mixed team competition and not national team. Which is a big difference in label... Don't you agree? --Ruling party (talk) 22:16, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Not as well that the Hopman Cup does not use the term "national team" on their own website to describe the teams. --Ruling party (talk) 22:20, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

• Strong oppose - Equating “national teams” to “Davis Cup teams” is obviously the ultimate desideratum of the likes of D. Haggerty, G. Piqué and company, but it is, by my understanding, not only inaccurate but also degrading to other events and competitions. As pointed out by Tvx1, national teams at the Olympics are no less ‘national teams’ than those that take part in the Davis Cup. The Olympics explicitly refer to them as ‘national teams’ (), Djokovic refers to the Serbian team at the Olympics as the country's 'national team' (), and so on (see this, and this...). Same thing applies to other events such as the Pan American Games and the Mediterranean Games, in which national federations are directly involved.

The above is quite self-explanatory, but in addition I must say that equating “Davis Cup teams” to “national teams” is particularly incorrect and unfair from a historical perspective. Teams at the World Team Cup and at the King's Cup were as ‘national’ as Davis Cup teams, regardless of what the ITF, the UN or NASA might say in 2021 or in 2100. --WTC7812 (talk) 22:55, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose - DC one of many tennis competitions/events represented by a national team. I'm am concerned that "x Billie Jean King Cup team" sounds rather wordy but there is nothing we can do about that. Suggest moving all back to their original names. Is that going to be an admin action? (if this RM were to fail). Jevansen (talk) 00:05, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

  Some can be moved back, but some he also made an extra change to the original so it can't be moved back without administrative help. Fyunck(click) (talk) 02:36, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

  I'm thinking more can these all be moved in one go by a bot? We're talking up to 200 pages. Jevansen (talk) 02:54, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

  I don't think a bot can execute these moves. The problem is that user automatically created redirects on the source pages by moving them. What are now the target pages to move back to are essentially blocked. We need either an administrator, who can delete the redirects to make place for the moves, or a WP:PAGEMOVER who can complete the moves through a "round-robin" move (a series of moves not leaving redirects).Tvx1 21:09, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Ruling party is still moving pages. Jevansen (talk) 01:27, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Now blocked for 3 days. Jevansen (talk) 01:30, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Resubstituted Template:Requested moves simply so it is easier to see examples of what proposer (now blocked) intended, especially after the RM is closed. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 22:50, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

All 175 of the remaining articles have now been moved back thanks to those at WP:RM/T. Sod25 (talk) 13:54, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

RFC that WILL affect this tennis project

There is a tennis/sports titling RFC at Misplaced Pages talk:Article titles that will affect many articles at this project. There was discussion of making the RfC handled bit by bit before all projects understood the ramifications with entertainment being singled out next in a deleted draft, and other projects after that. Whether you agree or don't agree please join in the discussion for this massive Misplaced Pages change. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:44, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Overcapitalization in infoboxes

Template:Infobox tennis tournament year and Template:Infobox tennis tournament event have the option to lowercase singles and doubles in "Men's Singles", etc., but they default to uppercase, which results in a lot of excess capitalization in infoboxes. I suggest we just remove the option and default to following the advice of MOS:CAPS in using sentence-case heading instead of title-case. Or at least change the default, so that contexts that want the over-capitalization for some reason need to specify so. Yes? Dicklyon (talk) 04:39, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Actually, this option also controls the links, so looks like we can't really fix it until we fix the overcapitalization in article titles. So it would be better to leave the option as is for controlling the links for now, and just fix the text presented in the infobox to be not affected by this option. Yes? Dicklyon (talk) 04:50, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Here's a sandbox diff illustrating the suggested change. I started a discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Tennis#Overcapitalization in infoboxes. We'll see what happens... Dicklyon (talk) 05:10, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

"If" there is overcapitalization in articles titles. The rfc right now is pretty much a no go on decapitalizing everything. I have no idea what others in the project want as far as capitalize or not in infoboxes. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:17, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Maybe not decapitalizing everything, but there's a clear preference to avoid title case where sentence case is WP style for headings and titles. These are not proper names, and you are the only person who has claimed that they are (and I showed you with sources that you were wrong in your statement that "Places like Wimbledon, Australian Open, US Open all use the caps as a proper name as you would La Brea Tar Pits."). Dicklyon (talk) 06:06, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

PS I showed you already where usopen.org doesn't treat these are proper names. But see also Wimbledon: "Eight-time men’s singles champion Federer will start his bid for more success as the No.7 seed. He will find out during Friday’s draw which higher-ranked players might be waiting in his path." and Australian Open: "Men’s singles: 128 competitors including 16 qualifiers and eight wildcards. Roger Federer is the defending champion." So why would we overcapitalize in WP by default via a template? It's kind of nutty if you ask me. Dicklyon (talk) 06:35, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

And I have already showed you links that those very organizations sometimes DO treat Men's Singles, Women's Singles, Mixed Doubles, as proper names for an event. You just ignored them. The events and press vary quite a bit on the terms as you know quite well. Right now the RFC is all over the map with no real consensus either way. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:59, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

I didn't ignore them. I've stipulated several times that sources DO sometimes cap these things. But nowhere near the consistent capitalization that sources use for proper names. Dicklyon (talk) 06:15, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

I suggest requesting a close of the RFC, and if the close is not a runoff between options A and B, then starting a requested move for all tennis articles so we can standardize things again given the Wimbledon moves. I would support your sandboxed change (I added the lowercase param to the infoboxes to support the capitalization style of tennis at multi-sport competition articles), as long as you're happy to update all the wikilinks so we don't link to redirects everywhere. Sod25k (talk) 06:36, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

I requested a close. Dicklyon (talk) 06:15, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Closer says we should defer the dash structure question, and work out the narrow tennis capping question here. This seems the wrong place to me, per WP:CONLEVEL, but it might work, if the consensus is not to try to go against MOS:CAPS. The section below about proper names and headings might get us there. Dicklyon (talk) 17:49, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

US National Championships Mixed Doubles 1887 - 1891

Hello. I was wondering if anyone had sources for US National Championships Mixed Doubles winners from 1887 - 1891. While I realize these were unofficial events, I was hoping to update List of US Open mixed doubles champions as there are names from List of Grand Slam mixed doubles champions not in the US Open page. Also, it would have to state those years were unofficial like some years at List of French Open mixed doubles champions. I checked The Bud Collins History of Tennis book but it doesn't have those years for mixed doubles. Thanks! --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 01:11, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Are "Men's Singles" and "Women's Doubles", etc., proper names?

In this edit, Fyunck capitalizes headings with these terms, that I had previously changed to sentence case, per MOS:CAPS. The article has citations to atptour.com and wtatennis.com, both of which do not capitalize these terms in sentences. It would make more sense to follow those, and to follow MOS:CAPS, than to use title case in these headings. Comments? Dicklyon (talk) 06:22, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

I do not think they are. Tony (talk) 10:05, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

You know, Dicklyon is presenting this a bit skewed and he knows it. I told him you can also find "Women's Singles" "Women's singles" "Mixed Doubles" "Mixed doubles" "Gentlemen's Invitational Doubles" to "Gentlemen's invitational doubles" all over the place. There are sources like Wimbledon, or TennisGrandstand or TennisGuru using "Gentlemen's Invitational Doubles" as the proper name of the event in question. I see it all the time. It may not be the most prevalent way, but it's common and what Tennis Project has always used. I'm not sure when the consensus happened but it is longstanding. And official tweets by the WTA show us otherwise. You can find capitalized Mixed Doubles in USTA leagues here, and also here. He knows all this but presents it as if it's always one-sided. It's not.

The situation was twofold: It is longstanding consensus to use capitalization such as Women's Singles in Tennis Project articles. I told him this. I also told him that he should bring it here to Tennis Project, plead his case, and perhaps most editors will agree with the changes he is making against that consensus. And he is making plenty in the last 24 hours.... over 1500 changes without discussion. That was my main beef with the situation. If you are going to change countless thousands of tennis articles it should be brought to the attention of Tennis Project to see what editors who build and maintain these articles actually think. I'm glad he brought it here and he stopped changing things. I don't know if our templates link to all the sections he has changed but it could create a huge mess if they do. I wouldn't change things as they seem fine the way they are, but I'm only one voice in a chorus. Fyunck(click) (talk) 11:03, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

I also agree they shouldn't be capitalized. If Dicklyon wants to go through and make the changes, seems fine with me. I don't think "long-standing consensus" should be used to override basic Misplaced Pages standards such as MOS:CAPS when even the organizations such as WTA/ATP don't capitalize.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 15:16, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Indeed. This should just be routine, the guidelines are clear.  — Amakuru (talk) 21:52, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Fyunck says "it is longstanding consensus to use capitalization such as Women's Singles in Tennis Project articles"; but it's also longstanding consensus to capitalize "Other Entrants" and all kinds of other stuff, it seems. And to put spaces into date ranges such as 1 – 5 June (should be 1–5 June). I routinely fix such things when I find them (rapidly, using regular expressions in JWB), independent of what projects put their stamps on them. See WP:CONLEVEL about how a central consensus is not overridden by a local project consensus (and I still don't know that such a local project consensus ever existed, since nobody can point me at a discussion about it).

And Fyunck continues to misunderstand the basis of MOS:CAPS when he says you can find these terms capped "all over the place"; nobody denies that (see above where I said "I've stipulated several times that sources DO sometimes cap these things."), but the criterion for treatment as a proper name is: only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Misplaced Pages. And per WP:TITLEFORMAT, words are not capitalized unless they would be so in running text. I don't see why he says I have "presented this a bit skewed". He went through and added caps to headings, and not in running text (where it was already pretty inconsistent). Dicklyon (talk) 17:45, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

They're not proper names, they're just event or "discipline" descriptions like "300 m dash" and "men's triathlon" and "nine-ball". Should be lower case. Because this wikiproject seems unaware of WP:CONLEVEL policy and the fact that the reason it was enacted was to stop wikiprojects trying to make up their own "rules" against site-wide consensus, this should just be subjected to an RfC outside the wikiproject, e.g. at WT:MOSCAPS. 20:46, 3 January 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by SMcCandlish (talk • contribs)

We keep hearing about this long-standing consensus and it has been asked for a couple of times. It is starting to sound like a unicorn. Per DL, these headings are using title case when the term is not being capped in running text of the article. WP uses sentence case for headings. In any case, Fyunck has answered the question: It may not be the most prevalent way, but it's common ... MOS:CAPS states "only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Misplaced Pages". The terms are clearly not reaching this threshold. As SMcC says, we don't cap other sports disciplines either. Cinderella157 (talk) 03:15, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Unicorn, yes. Quoting Fyunck from 2015, "You can't keep saying 'we decided this by consensus' and expect editors to wade through the archives to find it. Make it easy for editors." How times change. Dicklyon (talk) 06:16, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Interesting bit of sway from Dicklyon again. I've been saying it is now longstanding consensus, not that it was decided by consensus. Many items in Tennis project (or any WikiProject) get talked about, tried, and if no challenge happens it becomes the law of the land. You should know better... but I begin to see that never changes with you. Shall I start digging up all your "seeming" contradictions through the years? It's not my style but it is apparently yours. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:27, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Fyunck(click), at the start of this thread you state: It is longstanding consensus .... I have seen the same statement before in other recent discussions where you (or anybody else) have also been asked to evidence the consensus. You only just now enlighten us by saying: it is now longstanding consensus, not that it was decided by consensus. Please! This is low on the WP:CONLEVEL compared with P&G - particularly as it clearly goes against guidelines with community level consensus (and probably policy - section headings?). I am thinking that the burden rests with those that want to keep capitalisation, since the question is contrary to P&G but MOS:CAPS also places a burden to show that caps are necessary. Capitalisation is ultimately dependent on sources (and touches on WP:V). So far (particularly considering your own "evidence"), there is a clear and strong consensus to uphold P&G. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:39, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

You have the burden completely backwards, it's the side advocating for a change to the status quo that has to get a consensus for that change. You can't simply assert that policies and/or guidelines are on your side to shift the burden away from you. Iffy★Chat -- 11:57, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Iffy, we can agree to disagree. However, MOS:CAPS creates a specific burden and P&G is the status quo of the community on matters of P&G. Regardless, this is not a !vote. P&G and evidence isn't being argued against. The only argument so far is that "we have done this for a while now" and "I don't like that you want to change things (even if it is against P&G)". It isn't carrying much weight. Cinderella157 (talk) 12:16, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Fyunck, on Nov. 17, above, you wrote "I know the Olympics Project has a different idea and we agreed to use lower case for them since other Olympic articles do the same, but it is a proper phrase in tennis." Are you now denying that any such agreement/discussion took place? What I'm looking for is where and whether and who said OK go ahead over over-capitalize in tennis-only articles but just not in multi-sport articles. It might be informative. Apparently the multi-sport project doesn't see tennis as being as special as you do. Dicklyon (talk) 16:16, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

There was an RM in 2020 which closed without consensus, but I can't find anything after then. Also, it was the other way around, the consensus that eventually formed was that Olympic tennis article would use the Olympic format to be consistent with other Olympic articles. Iffy★Chat -- 17:05, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

That was handled pretty poorly. It wasn't pointed out that the 2020 articles were out of step with all the other Olympics tennis articles at that time. It got fixed later anyway; there's no evidence of any p&g-based objection there, nor any "agreement"; just a small trainwreck discussion, thanks to your comment "Oppose moving thousands of articles just to fix a perceived capitalisation error" when it was really about 4 articles or so. And Fyunck's comment showed clearly that he was not aware any agreement with Olympics on caps at that time. Dicklyon (talk) 18:40, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Firstly, I would like to remind people that most consensus on Misplaced Pages is achieved through WP:EDITCONSENSUS, so not every consensus is achieved through a discussion. Secondly, one of Misplaced Pages's core principles is that consensus can change. So, just because something was done in one way for a while, that doesn't mean we have to continue doing so eternally. For that reason, having a constructive discussion on a subject is not a bad idea at all and certainly not prohibited. Unfortunately, the focus in this discussion seems to be on hurling personal reproaches at one another instead of just providing meaningful arguments for either of the provided choices. What's even more disappointing to see is that the reputation of an entire WikiProject is being unfairly tarnished. On the subject, I support decapitalisation, because MOS recommends to do so and I cannot find any strong argument not to.Tvx1 20:07, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

It's not a WikiProject Tennis problem, but it is a Fyunck problem, and he attributes it to the project. Nobody else at the project is backing up his assertion that "it's a proper name" (or "a proper phrase in tennis"), nor is anyone else alluding to some long-ago agreement/compromise/consensus with WikiProject Multi-sport events or Olympics or something. He has been obstructing progress on a routine style maintenance issue for well over a month now. I think it's time to ignore him and get it done. Thanks for agreeing on the substance. Dicklyon (talk) 21:46, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Um. You know I keep trying to be nice and you keep trying to be ... shall we say not. This hasn't been here a month. I told you to bring it here when you made 1500 changes without discussion during a holiday. I figured it would be here a week and if all agree with you we make the changes and move on here. This isn't a race against time. I wanted the Tennis Project to have eyes on what is happening "before" changes are made, and many could be on vacation this time of year. I did not want 10,000 changes and potential template breakdowns without Tennis Project seeing what a change in prose means. Sitting here a week so that everyone will have a chance to see it makes sense to me. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:15, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

{{U|Fyunck(click), the changes are being largely made to headings within articles (and some other routine things like spaces within date ranges. Tennis templates create links to article titles, not to sections within articles. How are the templates going to beak down? Cinderella157 (talk) 09:13, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

I think the sentence case (e.g. "Men's singles") is probably more correct for the section headers because of MOS:HEAD, but not because they aren't proper nouns. They still can be proper nouns, and that's even more often the case when they are used in isolation. You can't just say they're not. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 20:31, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Who are you replying to? I'm not saying they're not.Tvx1 20:44, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

For reference here, MOS:HEAD says:

Section headings should generally follow the guidance for article titles (above), and should be presented in sentence case (Funding of UNESCO projects in developing countries), not title case (Funding of UNESCO Projects in Developing Countries).

with this footnote about where sentence case is used, corresponding to the changes I have been working on:

Misplaced Pages uses sentence case for sentences, article titles, section titles, table headers, image captions, list entries (in most cases), and entries in infoboxes and similar templates, among other things. Any MoS guidance about the start of a sentence applies to items using sentence case.

Re the comment that we should use sentence case even for things that are proper names, I don't know how to interpret that comment. As a practical matter (as opposed to theoretical), we decide what's a proper name via the criterion in MOS:CAPS (with my bold added):

In English, capitalization is primarily needed for proper names, acronyms, and for the first letter of a sentence. Misplaced Pages relies on sources to determine what is conventionally capitalized; only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Misplaced Pages.

Support the decapitalization of these section headings per the policies/guidelines raised by those above. Dicklyon, please also start the mass-move request of tennis articles to e.g. "– Men's singles", which has precedent from the Wimbledon move, and is also the least disruptive solution to the overcapitalization problem (~5k articles needing to be moved vs. ~17k for "– men's singles"). This shouldn't need to drag out for months. Sod25k (talk) 11:27, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

I've drafted a multi-RM at User:Dicklyon/Draft Singles Doubles RM. Please review. The specific lists of articles to move are at User:Dicklyon/Singles to fix and User:Dicklyon/Doubles to fix (these are formatted for WP:RMTR, but I'll change to whatever someone who can automate this prefers). If you see anything else that should be included, or if any of these don't look right, let me know. I'd rather understand whether the Tennis project is going to be supportive before launching this. Dicklyon (talk) 23:04, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

@Dicklyon: Other than linking the precedential Wimbledon RM for context, I think we're good to go. A full list of the articles needing moving can be found with intitle:/– .+/ hastemplate:"Infobox tennis tournament event", which has several hundred articles not in your lists (qualifying draws, Grand Slam legends events, etc.). I've prepped the list here. There've been no further objections, so I think you can finish downcasing the headings also. Sod25m (talk) 18:06, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Your lists also included the following non-tennis articles, which should be dealt with separately. Sod25m (talk) 18:47, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

2015 Badminton Asia Junior Championships – Boys' Doubles | 2015 Badminton Asia Junior Championships – Boys' doubles
2016 Badminton Asia Junior Championships – Boys' Doubles | 2016 Badminton Asia Junior Championships – Boys' doubles
2015 Badminton Asia Junior Championships – Boys' Singles | 2015 Badminton Asia Junior Championships – Boys' singles
2016 Badminton Asia Junior Championships – Boys' Singles | 2016 Badminton Asia Junior Championships – Boys' singles
2018 Badminton Asia Junior Championships – Boys' Singles | 2018 Badminton Asia Junior Championships – Boys' singles
2015 Badminton Asia Junior Championships – Girls' Doubles | 2015 Badminton Asia Junior Championships – Girls' doubles
2016 Badminton Asia Junior Championships – Girls' Doubles | 2016 Badminton Asia Junior Championships – Girls' doubles
2017 Badminton Asia Junior Championships – Girls' Doubles | 2017 Badminton Asia Junior Championships – Girls' doubles
2018 Badminton Asia Junior Championships – Girls' Doubles | 2018 Badminton Asia Junior Championships – Girls' doubles
2015 Badminton Asia Junior Championships – Girls' Singles | 2015 Badminton Asia Junior Championships – Girls' singles
2016 Badminton Asia Junior Championships – Girls' Singles | 2016 Badminton Asia Junior Championships – Girls' singles
2017 Badminton Asia Junior Championships – Girls' Singles | 2017 Badminton Asia Junior Championships – Girls' singles
2018 Badminton Asia Junior Championships – Girls' Singles | 2018 Badminton Asia Junior Championships – Girls' singles
2014 Racquetball World Championships – Men's Doubles | 2014 Racquetball World Championships – Men's doubles
2016 Racquetball World Championships – Men's Doubles | 2016 Racquetball World Championships – Men's doubles
2018 Racquetball World Championships – Men's Doubles | 2018 Racquetball World Championships – Men's doubles
2021 Racquetball World Championships – Men's Doubles | 2021 Racquetball World Championships – Men's doubles
2014 Racquetball World Championships – Men's Singles | 2014 Racquetball World Championships – Men's singles
2016 Racquetball World Championships – Men's Singles | 2016 Racquetball World Championships – Men's singles
2018 Racquetball World Championships – Men's Singles | 2018 Racquetball World Championships – Men's singles
2021 Racquetball World Championships – Men's Singles | 2021 Racquetball World Championships – Men's singles
2014 Racquetball World Championships – Women's Doubles | 2014 Racquetball World Championships – Women's doubles
2016 Racquetball World Championships – Women's Doubles | 2016 Racquetball World Championships – Women's doubles
2018 Racquetball World Championships – Women's Doubles | 2018 Racquetball World Championships – Women's doubles
2021 Racquetball World Championships – Women's Doubles | 2021 Racquetball World Championships – Women's doubles
2014 Racquetball World Championships – Women's Singles | 2014 Racquetball World Championships – Women's singles
2016 Racquetball World Championships – Women's Singles | 2016 Racquetball World Championships – Women's singles
2018 Racquetball World Championships – Women's Singles | 2018 Racquetball World Championships – Women's singles
2021 Racquetball World Championships – Women's Singles | 2021 Racquetball World Championships – Women's singles

Thanks, Sod25k. I see you're better at search patterns and list text hacking than I am. Can I get you to provide the final tennis list after the RM? I'll take care of the non-tennis ones (I hadn't noticed boys' and girls' when I did the badminton, and hadn't noticed racquetball yet at all). Dicklyon (talk) 22:40, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

I have now taken care of moving and editing those badminton and racquetball stragglers "by hand". Dicklyon (talk) 00:51, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

OK, RM is launched at Talk:1912 World Hard Court Championships – Mixed Doubles#Requested move 8 January 2022. Dicklyon (talk) 22:51, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

The RM concluded consensus to move, but nothing is moved yet. We're waiting on a bot task, using a bot that was waiting for approval on a previous big move task, at Misplaced Pages:Bots/Requests for approval/TolBot 13. Now that task 13 is approved, it is expected to run by Tuesday (downcasing the Thailand Districts etc.), and at that time a bot request will be put in (per User talk:Tol#Another big move job for TolBot) for a TolBot task for these 5000 or so tennis moves. Patience. Dicklyon (talk) 00:11, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Pardon my interruption into this discussion but I was looking into all of the previous conversations and saw a template issue come up multiple times. Has that been sorted yet or are there going to be thousands upon thousands of fixes necessary after pages are moved. And if so, is there someone volunteering to try and fix any mess left behind? Adamtt9 (talk) 00:57, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

@Sod25: I think Sod25 knows more about all that template stuff. My impression is that he'll be able to easily make things work right and consistently. Still, there are likely to be a few cleanup edits needed on each page, e.g. fixing capitalization in the lead, for those that have leads. I intend to attack that with JWB, over time; if anyone wants to help, let's coordinate. Dicklyon (talk) 03:25, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure if Sod25 and Sod25m are the same person, but Sod25m has indicated on their talk page that they are now retired from Misplaced Pages. Adamtt9 (talk) 03:28, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

I think they're the same person. So maybe we have to find someone else to look at the templates. As far as I know, though, there's no actual problem. Dicklyon (talk) 03:33, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

We'll likely do a 50-article bot test again, and from there we'll see if anything breaks. I think that a bunch of prev/next links in infoboxes are constructed by just changing the year in the title, so when just a few articles are moved, those will construct redlinks (if it works as I imagine); but moving the rest will fix all that. And any links to the old names will still work, of course. If anyone else knows of potential issues, I hope they'll speak up. Dicklyon (talk) 03:46, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Also, it looks like Template:Tennis events will do the right thing automatically for the infobox title, so no edits needed for that. Dicklyon (talk) 03:53, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

You can get an idea of the implications of the moves by looking at 1885 Wimbledon Championships – Women's singles, which was moved from 1885 Wimbledon Championships – Ladies' Singles (along with all the rest). The infobox titles automatically followed, and the prev/next links still work through the old names redirected. No cleanup edits were done, so the lead sentence still has "Ladies' Singles" where "women's singles" would be more appropriate. I can work on those. Dicklyon (talk) 04:04, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

The grid in the tennis events template worked for 1885 Wimbledon Championships – Ladies' Singles because there was a redirect to it from 1885 Wimbledon Championships – Women's Singles. When 1885 Wimbledon Championships – Ladies' Singles was moved to 1885 Wimbledon Championships – Women's singles the redirect was retargeted by User:EmausBot. It checks for broken links as the result of a move. I am not certain if it will work in these new cases. I am not certain if it is smart enough to create a new redirect. The simple solution is to leave the old page (2005 Wimbledon Championships – Women's Singles) as a redirect to 2005 Wimbledon Championships – Women's singles etc. My understanding is that RfC will leave no cases of the form 2005 Wimbledon Championships – Women's Singles (double uppercase). The template can be easily edited to replace all instances of "Women's Singles" with "Women's singles" etc. There are about three other templates: one for the tournament year infobox and two footer nav templates that would be much the same. Per User talk:Cinderella157#Tennis templates, Sod25m was just waiting for the outcome of the RfC. I think this is pretty much under control. Cinderella157 (talk) 04:48, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

'Davis cup team' renaming

Please tell me where should information about nation's participation in World Team Tennis and ATP cup go??? Will every competition have its own page?? (I cannot believe this nonsense.) Setenzatsu.2 (talk) 20:17, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

2021 Rolex Paris Masters

Please note, the 2021 Rolex Paris Masters' content has been deleted and redirected to the main article. I think it should be restored at least in some form. Cheers, Kacir 21:07, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Reverted. Next time someone unilaterally redirects an article like that, just revert it and then improve the article. Iffy★Chat -- 21:49, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Pending proposal to declare NSPORTS (and NTENNIS) an invalid argument at AfD

A new proposal is now pending to add language to NSPORT providing, among other things, that "meeting would not serve as a valid keep argument in a deletion discussion." If you have views on this proposal, one way or the other, please feel free to add your comments at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)#Subproposal 1 (NSPORT). Cbl62 (talk) 15:00, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

"Top ten" lists

Below is a list of the tennis "top ten" templates, taken from Category:ATP Tour navigational boxes and Category:WTA Tour navigational boxes. I can't help thinking that this is a massively long list (160 or so) and I'm interested in people's thought on these. I know there sort of things were quite popular in the early days of Misplaced Pages but my own view now, is that I don't find them at all useful. They're WP:NAVBOXes, meant to help readers navigate between articles, but I'm pretty doubtful that they serve that purpose. In addition most of them only get updated sporadically, so we're providing out of date information to readers. And I can't help thinking that there's either going to be a large amount of effort maintaining these for no real benefit or they're almost always out of date. My suggestion is that we have a cull of these, which would hopefully focus effort on the few remaining ones. Is anyone really interested in doubles rankings? Thoughts? Nigej (talk) 10:01, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

I don't really have a problem with them. And of course there are 160+ since there are a lot of countries that have tennis federations. Now the "up to date" part of the query is a very good point. There is no chance I'm going to update the top ten Hungarian female tennis players so it needs to have a following that updates it to be worthwhile, or needs to be automated in some way. Fyunck(click) (talk) 11:04, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm just wondering WHY were trying to maintain them. Why would anyone want out of date information here when they can go the official site and get the correct information. We're not really in the business of constantly mirroring other sites, its not something were very good at. Nigej (talk) 12:17, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

You are correct we aren't really good at it. However we maintain every single player ranking in the infobox even though those are often out of date. Perhaps it would be better if we simply give a link in the external link section to the appropriate country's rankings? Then we don't have to maintain them? In fact as I look at the source for your first item on the list I see ATP Belarusian male singles tennis players. That's really all we need in the external link section. It's maintained by the ATP and is always up to date. So as I rethink, I do have an issue with these templates... they are more trouble than they are worth. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:37, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

It's interesting to me that there's such a big difference between the golf and tennis projects. Maybe reflecting the effort available. For golf we don't have any of these sort of templates. Regarding rankings we have articles for the world number 1s (men/women professional/amateur), an article about men who's ever made the world top 10 and the male players infoboxes have their highest-ever ranking (provided they got the world top 100). Typically about 5 players in the top-100 reach a new career high each week. This last one is done (by me) through a centralised system. Nigej (talk) 08:04, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Is it possible to link to WTA rankings by country? If I select a country under "Filter by region" at https://www.wtatennis.com/rankings/singles then the country is listed correctly but the url doesn't change. https://www.atptour.com/en/rankings/singles works differently and does change the url. https://www.atptour.com/en/rankings/singles?rankdate=&rankrange=1-5000&countrycode=blr shows Belarus. It doesn't work to try the same query string at WTA: https://www.wtatennis.com/rankings/singles?rankdate=&rankrange=1-5000&countrycode=blr (I didn't expect it to work). PrimeHunter (talk) 11:15, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

I don't know the answer to that. But a cut-and-paste solution may be possible. For a relatively simple example see the snooker rankings here Template:Infobox snooker player/rankings where the rankings are updated with some relatively simple editing from https://wst.tv/rankings/ (I use Vim) and magically all the rankings get updated simultaneously (see eg Hossein Vafaei current ranking). I've never been sure how efficient this is but it seems to well work. Nigej (talk) 11:32, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

I see what you mean by the WTA links. That actual filtered link is hidden and I'm not good enough to see in the sourcing what it really links to. But as far as updating the templates every week it is still better to link to the WTA ranking page since it only takes one more click to bring up the country. Unless someone can figure out the actual linked page we can plop it in external links with the title of something like "Top Belarusian female tennis players (filter by Belarus)". At least it would be automatically updated even though it would take an extra click. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:56, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

That would work for me. I doubt there is an actual linked WTA page. They probably generate the content on request without a url for it anywhere. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:47, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

It's fetched from an API, e.g. https://api.wtatennis.com/tennis/players/ranked?page=0&pageSize=20&type=rankSingles&sort=asc&name=&metric=SINGLES&at=2022-01-24&nationality=USA . Players constantly drift in and out of their country's top ten, so even external links would become out of date quickly. Sod25 (talk) 02:30, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

These should be deleted as all they do is waste editor time hand-mirroring content available in two clicks on the ATP/WTA sites while becoming out of date almost immediately. Given how out of date most of them are (~6 months on average to 3+ years), they reflect poorly on this project. Sod25 (talk) 02:30, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree. These have no added value.Tvx1 06:13, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

To be fair, when they are up to date they do give value. It's just that so few are up to date or will ever be up to date. They should be removed but replaced with a link to the ATP top players by country or the WTA top players websites. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:14, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

I've nominated a bunch here Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion/Log/2022 January 27#Top ten male doubles tennis players templates, for deletion. Nigej (talk) 08:32, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

I disagree that doubles templates do not have value. Singles players are playing doubles, example Nick Kyrgios or Matthew Ebden are singles players who just reached the Australian Open Final, on the women side Krejcikova is No. 3 in singles and No. 2 in doubles, Iga Swiatek, Coco Gauff also. If we are maintaining the singles we should be able to maintain the doubles template as well. Sashona(talk) 17:30, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

I take the point. However, the fundamental issue is whether any of these should be kept and, importantly, why they should be kept. Anyway, the discussion is open for comments there, which is now a better place for them. Nigej (talk) 18:35, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

I explained to you why they have value and would be kept. For example a tennis player like Jessica Pegula is No. 2 American player in singles and No. 9 in doubles as of 31 January 2022. So an important player in singles and doubles. People that follow tennis would want to see that information. The templates can be updated every three months let’s say if every month is too much to ask. They also could be real-time live links to the rankings and will not require any manual maintenance. Sashona(talk) 22:23, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

I've nominated another set of these here: Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion/Log/2022 February 5#Top ten male singles tennis players templates where you can comment on these templates. Nigej (talk) 08:23, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

“Top ten Italian male doubles tennis players” needs to be deleted. Still showing in Misplaced Pages. Sashona(talk) 19:00, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

It's not in Category:ATP Tour navigational boxes, which is why I missed it. I'm happy to nominate for TfD. Nigej (talk) 13:18, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Peng Shuai RfC

Notification of an RfC on Peng Shuai's article. Would appreciate folk's providing input. NickCT (talk) 16:24, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Bot for renaming/moving tennis articles

See Misplaced Pages:Bots/Requests for approval/TolBot 13A, where User:Tol is requesting permission to move/rename/downcase 5425 tennis pages with his bot, per the discussion above and the RM close. Dicklyon (talk) 02:36, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

With respect to Adamtt9's query above, I made all the needed edits to the template sandboxes linked here, which just need to be transferred to the templates once the articles have been moved. I thought that would be enough to leave things in others' hands (and safely retire), but it occurred to me today that another non-trivial issue will arise that will require my attention, so I'll stay on until after the job is complete. I'll need the AWB permission for the cleanup, but it seems to be a slow process to get it. Sod25 (talk) 03:08, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

I managed to get the permission pretty quickly. If you have trouble, or want to be more retired, just show me what's needed. Dicklyon (talk) 03:10, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

50 test moves are done. Take a look, all. Dicklyon (talk) 04:49, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

OK, the bot has done the 5425 article moves. I'm going to go slow on cleanup edits, learning more about regex as I go. If anyone wants to help, let me know. Dicklyon (talk) 06:01, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Cleanup edits

I've been developing the replace expressions to clean up 16000+ tennis articles; see User:Dicklyon/Tennis cleanup JWB JSON. Please review my edits (mostly of Feb. 1) to see what these do, and let me know if you see any errors, or if you can suggest improvments. If we converge on the patterns maybe I can get a bot to finish the lot. Dicklyon (talk) 21:54, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Hi Dicklyon, I was having a look at a sample set. As an example, I am seeing "Main article: 2005 AIG Japan Open Tennis Championships – Men's Singles" at 2005 AIG Japan Open Tennis Championships. Cinderella157 (talk) 03:59, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Also seeing capped usages in tables eg at Miami Open (tennis). Cinderella157 (talk) 04:07, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

I think I fixed the "Main" links a few hours ago (but I haven't editted that one you linked since a month ago). That Miami Open article doesn't follow the usual pattern so yeah, I missed that. I'll see about adding some clauses... Dicklyon (talk) 04:12, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

OK, 729 down, 16,000 to go. I'll stop there. Big work day on Feb. 2. Please review. Dicklyon (talk) 04:39, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Hi, you might see this edit. Cinderella157 (talk) 05:18, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I could work on succession boxes. But there aren't many, so I'll leave them for now and later can try a pattern to target just those. Remind me if I don't. Dicklyon (talk) 06:41, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

I included the succession box fixes in my list of replaces in the bot request. Thanks for pointing it out. I found there were over 600 files, so decided not to do them by hand. Dicklyon (talk) 01:06, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

A lot of my recent edits were incremental, as I added a few more replace rules. But all the recently edited articles should have ended up in a good place, with a few things left to fix like the occasional succession box. I mostly want to make sure there are no "false positive" downcasings, or other weirdness. Dicklyon (talk) 06:41, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

After about the first 788 files, I get a screwup at this most recent edit]. So, work to do. Later. Dicklyon (talk) 07:18, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Got that fixed in latest patterns. Dicklyon (talk) 04:44, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

A bot request for approval has been filed: Misplaced Pages:Bots/Requests for approval/DoggoBot 5. Dicklyon (talk) 23:03, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

If anyone else in the project has looked at a few of my last thousand edits, your comments here or at the BRFA could be useful. Dicklyon (talk) 18:50, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Draft:Ranbir Singh Kapurthala

Couldsomeone from the project please look at this and see if they can add references. He would probably be notable DGG ( talk ) 07:59, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Juniors' possessive

At Talk:2006 US Open – Girls' singles#Juniors' possessive I ask whether we really want that apostrophe on juniors' and seniors'. Dicklyon (talk) 14:45, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Universal Date formatting

I was informed by user (Fyunck(click)) 01:20, 1 February 2022 Sorry per Tennis Project the dates format for American (USA) 🇺🇸 tennis athletes are different then the others , “that it is what we do by longstanding consensus”.

My reply (talk) 1 February 2022‎ : Do not understand why an International tennis athlete page which has a uniform format for all athletes has to have a different date format “MON DD, YEAR” in the case of Sebastian Korda on his page. I thought Misplaced Pages is working towards uniformity in GLOBAL sports like Tennis . Also “updated by” date or any other date outside the infobox does not make sense to be in that format. A specific date rule does not make sense for a Global athlete page to be followed just for one country (USA) in the case that person is American, when all other pages have DD MM YEAR. Thoughts? Sashona (talk) 16:30, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

There is a wiki-wide consensus (see MOS:DATETIES) that as Americans use the wrong date format, we should do so as well for articles about American tennis players. Iffy★Chat -- 16:57, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

if Americans use the “wrong” format why not correct that. Tennis is a global sport and should follow one rule not have an exception for Americans. Sashona (talk) 17:20, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Americans are not the only country that doesn't use the DMY date format. I hate this too, but it's a Misplaced Pages-wide policy. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 17:27, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Also, unless you're in Quebec, Canada uses MDY. Prize money is expressed in dollars, Euros, or pounds, etc... depending on location in tennis articles. And we use American English spelling in articles about Americans, not British English. There are lots of variables and it's not a question of right or wrong. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:51, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Multiple pending proposals at Village Pump

Your input, one way or the other, on several pending proposals to alter NSPORTS/NTENNIS would be welcomed. These proposals are as follows:

• Subproposal 1: Requires "all athlete biographies must demonstrate GNG when notability is challenged at AfD" and that "SIGCOV in multiple secondary, independent reliable sources would have to be produced during the course of an AfD". Also potential limitations/exceptions.
• Subproposal 3: "Remove all simple or mere 'participation' criteria in NSPORT, outside of ones related to Olympics and equivalent events."
• Subproposal 4: "Modify all provisions of NSPORTS that provide that participation in 'one' game/match such that the minimum participation level is increased to 'three' games/matches. This raises the threshold for the presumption of notability to kick in."
• Subproposal 5: "Implement a requirement that all sports biographies and sports season/team articles must, from inception, include at least one example of actual WP:SIGCOV from a reliable, independent source. Mere database entries would be insufficient for creation of a new biography article."
• Subproposal 6: "Conditional on Subproposal 6 passing, should a prod-variant be created, applicable to the articles covered by Subproposal 5, that would require the addition of one reference containing significant coverage to challenge the notice."
• Subproposal 8: "Rewrite the introduction to clearly state that GNG is the applicable guideline, and articles may not be created or kept unless they meet GNG." Further: "Replace all instances of 'presumed to be notable' with 'significant coverage is likely to exist.'
• Subproposal 9: Strike, as allegedly confusing and/or at odds with other parts of NSPORTS, the following sentence from the lead: "The article should provide reliable sources showing that the subject meets the general notability guideline or the sport specific criteria set forth below."
• Subproposal 10: "Require each project that has inclusion criteria based on participation in a league ... within the next 30 days to justify the inclusion of each league. Such justification must include actual 'random' (truly random) sampling showing that 90%-plus of the players in each league receive sufficient SIGCOV to pass GNG. At the end of 30 days, any league as to which the data has not been provided must be stricken from NSPORTS." Cbl62 (talk) 09:01, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Rankings

Having occasionally updated the world rankings of tennis players in their articles, I have noticed what a tedious process this is with there being 1000s of active players ATP&WTA combined and with the existence of singles and doubles rankings. While recently editing some articles on darts players, I noticed that they use a set of templates and modules which allow them automatically update the rakings in the articles of all players with one centralized edit. I was wondering wether a similat system could be used for tennis.Tvx1 17:43, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

It would be awesome if we could. The darts module is based on the website and I'm not sure it will work for the ATP and WTA. Darts has 120 players total listed on one page. The ATP alone has a couple thousand spread across dozens of pages and the players shift from page to page. ESPN lists the top 150 players of both the WTA and ATP so you might be able to link to that. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:47, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Standings

Speaking of rankings, we have this oft-repeated notation:

Standings are determined by: 1) Number of wins; 2) Number of matches; 3) In two-players-ties, head-to-head records; 4) In three-players-ties, percentage of sets won, or of games won; 5) Steering Committee decision.

Can we change it to reduce over-capitalization, and maybe replace the one-sided paren with something more normal? Maybe:

Standings are determined by: 1. number of wins; 2. number of matches; 3. head-to-head records in two-player ties; 4. in three-player ties, percentage of sets won, or of games won; 5. steering-committee decision.

Other suggestions? Dicklyon (talk) 06:24, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

• Project-Class tennis pages
• NA-importance tennis pages
• WikiProject Tennis articles