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Revision as of 01:39, 14 February 2007 editPetercorless (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users7,675 edits →[]← Previous edit Revision as of 02:35, 14 February 2007 edit undoMarshallBagramyan (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers7,778 editsNo edit summaryNext edit →
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* '''Quotes at the start of sections''' -- Personally, I liked them as a stylistic engagement of a reader. But yes, they can be argued to be non-encyclopedic that way. Some of those taken away could be worked back in to the paragraphs either inline or as cquotes for the section. * '''Quotes at the start of sections''' -- Personally, I liked them as a stylistic engagement of a reader. But yes, they can be argued to be non-encyclopedic that way. Some of those taken away could be worked back in to the paragraphs either inline or as cquotes for the section.
* '''Seems close to ready''' -- aside from some ''minor'' and often technical disputes which are never going to be resolved unless people put down partisan positions, this article seems about 95% ready for FA status. Remember that no article is ever complete, and just because FA does not mean the article is enshrined in a temple somewhere. --] 23:45, 13 February 2007 (UTC) * '''Seems close to ready''' -- aside from some ''minor'' and often technical disputes which are never going to be resolved unless people put down partisan positions, this article seems about 95% ready for FA status. Remember that no article is ever complete, and just because FA does not mean the article is enshrined in a temple somewhere. --] 23:45, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
:*I believe we got points 2 (for the most part) and 3 squared away. --] 02:35, 14 February 2007 (UTC)


Another comment: Another comment:

Revision as of 02:35, 14 February 2007

Nagorno-Karabakh War

This is the article's second nomination and I feel that it has substantially improved and addressed most of the concerns that were raised when it failed its first nomination in September 2006. The article boasts over 100 in-line references derived from a plethora of sources which are comprised virtually of both reputable and verifiable books and respected scholarly journals. It had held a GA rating for well over half a year and I believe that it is well-written and covers every aspect of this war on both sides that it possibly can.--MarshallBagramyan 00:39, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

  • Oppose
  1. Quotes should not be italicized, per the MoS.
  2. Fair use images need to have a clearly identified copyright holder, source information and a fair use rationale (Image:Captured azeri tank.jpg, Image:Shilka AA.JPG, Image:Khojaly Massacre.jpg, Image:366th and Weapons.jpg, Image:Sumgaitrioting.jpg). Fair use images should be used as little as possible.
  3. Images are missing source info Image:Nkr-army6.jpg, Image:Azerirefugees2.jpg
  4. Image:Damage to Stepanakert.jpg; what sort of permission was actually given for the use of this image?
--Peta 03:30, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  1. Done
  2. All of the grainy footage images (the captured tank, the Shilka AA, the 366th Division's cache of weapons, unless otherwise indicated if they were taken by a TV agency) were taken by amateur cameramen who accompanied the fighters during the war. The screenshots of the images were taken by videos of the war and many of them of them were uploaded on to YouTube. For example, a great deal of video montages containing them can be found here . The people who recorded the footage of the Sumgait massacre remain unknown and their images have been published all over the web and on television. Nevertheless the owners of the website gave permission and free rein over the use of their images. I'm unsure of the copyright over the Khojaly massacre but a source is listed.
  3. I updated the status of the first image which was taken by the Armenian Government and found on its Ministry of Defense's website however its source link appears to be dead. For the second picture, I contacted the person who uploaded the to see if he is able to clarify its source.
  4. Permission to use this image was given to me by the owner of the website Armeniapedia.org and fellow Misplaced Pages contributor User:RaffiKojian who used to run its predecessor cilicia.com where the image was originally found. My asking and his agreeing of the image usage can be found here .
  • Oppose The article is not up to the FA standards, and has not been much improved since the last nomination. The references for the most part are not academic, and there are problems with neutrality. Grandmaster 11:41, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose The content is biased and tendentious. Furthermore, the quotes have been deliberately chosen in a manner, which serve to manipulate the reader's opinion rather than provide insights. --Tabib 13:54, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Neutral contributors raised problems with the prose, sources (too many news articles) and the length of the article in the last nomination. Bias and POV issues weren't among them and even they told you this. All of the books used are academic, I don't know how you came up with that conclusion that they compromise any of the facts. --MarshallBagramyan 16:24, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  • The above two oppose comments are ambiguous at best and seem to be there for the sake of opposing only. Unless they are expanded upon they oughta be disregarded.-- Ευπάτωρ 17:23, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose The content contains historical distortions and verbal manipulations while using sources in order to create an impression that NK used to be part of Armenia and was transferred to Azerbaijan by accident (which is nonsense, like 2+2=5). Definitely, within the framework of this concept, it cannot deserve being published. Lacks honest interpretation of archival materials. --Batabat 18:38, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose The page essentially became a site of Armenian POV, yet again claiming that Karabakh was "made" part of Azerbaijan by Stalin. This is not true, Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast (NKAO) was "established within" Azerbaijan SSR by the decision of Kavbureau in 1923. Atabek 18:47, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment It is pretty much obvious that Azeris editors like Grandmaster would always oppose to the nomination of this article, and probably some Armenian editors too. Batabat is a newly registered user, this vote being his 9th edit here. Tabib will also always oppose, he is working with political parties in Azerbaijan and we can't expect him to ever accept FA on this article until it becomes the official view of the republic of Azerbaijan.
  • So a note to the Armenian and Azeri editor, I think it is best for both parties concerned to not vote, comment, but do not vote. Anyway, I will refrain voting myself. Fad (ix) 20:28, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Agreed w/ both Marshall's and Fad(ix)'s comments. This article has been fixed up well since the last FAC nomination (which failed to pin-point any POV problem). The same old issues brought by the Azeri editors on this page have been discussed 1000 times. I agree w/ Fad(ix) that we should let non-Armenian and non-Azeri editors vote. - Fedayee 22:21, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Just a clarification, I did not say we should leave non-Armenian and non-Azeri editors to vote, but rather that I think it would be best if such was to happen. Fad (ix) 22:44, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment I would also wanted to vote, but Fadix mad a good point. I rather not vote since Azeri users would oppose and Armenian users would support. The best would be to let non Armenian and Azeri users to vote on this article. ROOB323 04:42, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose For the time being, the page is not ready yet, let's return to this issue later, once more sources will be added and this page will become save quality as featured articles should be. --AdilBaguirov 04:58, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong support - This article is well written has over 60 references, the image problems have been solved, and obviously this section has been invaded by Turkish nationalists. Nareklm 05:08, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I don't have the authority to speak for Raul, but I can say that I am certain that any and all oppose votes by Azeri editors and any and all support votes by Armenian editors that provide flimsy or no reasons for supporting or opposing will be ignored. Please don't even bother. —Cuiviénen 05:22, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Support per nom. --Mardavich 07:34, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Conditional Support - I just went through the article, proofreading and making a few minor editing changes towards the grammar and syntax of the article. Since I am not an expert on the conflict, and since most of the references were to off-line sources, I cannot comment on the veracity of its claims. My main reservation is that it does not follow the form of citation templates favored by Misplaced Pages. I wish to see the templates replace most of the presently unstructured textual footnotes. As a neutral observer I did not sense any heavy bias, though quotes from Armenian sources might be balanced by a few comments by Azeri sources. Aside that, I have to say the article read very clearly and would be a fine featured article. I would not wish to see partisan political opposition sideline the forwarding of an article which helps illuminate the conflict. --Petercorless 11:15, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I have objections to the quotes. For example this quote: Congratulations on your earthquake. Nature has spared us the trouble is taken from the book by Melkonian, which is definitely not third party. No one has ever seen this telegram, and it is nothing but allegation of Armenian sources. Grandmaster 11:37, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
If there are specific quotes like this, which are considered objectionable or of questionable origin, we can discuss excising them. Is there any other independent source of this quote? I did not find anything on Google. Of course, I have no visibility into original language sources. Thoughts on the value of this quote versus its divisiveness? --Petercorless 11:55, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't think it has much informative value, same as other quotes included. Grandmaster 12:01, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Shamil Basayev was just snipped from the list of commanders; his own biography notes his possible involvement in the NK-Azeri conflict. Would anyone have a reference to prove this assertion, or should his name be excised? --Petercorless 12:11, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
He was involved, but not as a commander of Azerbaijani army. He was just one of the Chechen fighters who fought on Azerbaijani side at the early stage of war. Grandmaster 12:26, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
So? He was a commander of a faction allied to the Azeri army.-- Ευπάτωρ 15:47, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
It's this kind of careless attitude towards editing that spoils the page overall -- what is meant by "so?" That's the point, this is an encyclopedia, and only verifiable and correct information should be featured -- there is a big difference between commander of the entire Azerbaijani Army and a commander of a Chechen battallion of maybe 100 fighters, who was there only for the first half of 1992. Meanwhile, the Russian commanders who led Armenian troops, such as Anatoliy Vladimirovich Zinevich, a Major General and even "Chief of the Nagorno-Karabakh Army Headquarters", should be mentioned, as should be other mercenaries that fought on Armenian behalf (you can read Zinevich's interview in Yerevan's VREMYA newspaper in Russian, 24 August 1996, p. 3, by Ara Tatevosyan, MOSKOVSKIYE NOVOSTI staff correspondent, entitled "Once a Russian General...") Zinevich died only recently, with both President Kocharyan and next President Sarkisyan attending his funeral. --AdilBaguirov 16:11, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Let me say this in the most elemantary language possible, That column does not list the commanders of the Azeri national army. It lists the commanders of the factions fighting against Armenians. In addition, Bassayev and the Chechens were not mercenaries! Likewise, the Afghan/Al-Qaueda terrorists were also not mercenaries.-- Ευπάτωρ 16:50, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Earthquake source. Hey Peter, here is another source from TIME Magazine that supports Melkonian: A Journey into Misery (page 3): "Sometimes these tales of grief from the earthquake zone merged seamlessly with horror stories of brutal rapes and beatings during ethnic clashes last February in the Azerbaijani city of Sumgait. The people I spoke with insisted that after the earthquake, Azerbaijanis refused to help, announcing that "Allah has finally heard us." Some claimed that trains from the neighboring Muslim republic were even scrawled with graffiti reading DECEMBER 7. HAPPY HOLIDAY!" If it would help I can replace his book with this source. Zinevich falls under a CIS mercenary, Basayev is included because he is a notable figure.--MarshallBagramyan 16:16, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
  • On citation style. I believe you are right Peter but I think that adding the template would easily add several kilobytes of space on to the article.--MarshallBagramyan 16:22, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Comment: This is becoming ridiculous. Including Azerbaijani members know very well that Azeri having celebrated the earthquake is well documented, here another two sources.

A sever earthquake hit northwestern Armenia on December 7, 1988. The news was greeted in Azerbaijan by cheers in student dormitories and celebration in the streets. Armenia- portraits of survival and hope Par Donald E. Miller, Lorna Touryan Miller, Jerry Berndt, University of California Press, p.7

However, even the massive earthquake which devastated parts of Armenia failed to bring about a diminution of tensions in the area, and the Soviet press noted that some Azerbaijanis openly rejoiced over this tragedy. Niall M. Fraser; Keith W. Hipel; John Jaworsky; Ralph Zuljan, The Journal of Conflict Resolution, Vol. 34, No. 4 (Dec., 1990), p.668

Some members would really like to have this article as a conform copy of the official Azerbaijan republic vision.

And here, I am addressing to non-Armenian, non-Azeri members. I advice those members to go on and read the Khojali section of the article. Marshall has tried to do everything to satisfy the Azeri members, even as far as tainting sections with Azeri POV. The wording is harsher than the Armenian Genocide intro. If some Azeri members are not satisfied now, with such unjustifiable concessions, does anyone think they will ever? Both Azeri and Armenian members know that while Marshal has presented the moderate estimates of the losses of Khojali to be on the over 400, the moderate estimates in scholarship publications is in the range of between 100-200. See for instance, Roberta Cohen and Francis M Deng book The Forsaken People- Case Studies of the Internally Displaced, Brookings Institution Press 1998 p.260, or Vitaly V. Naumkin book, Central Asia and Transcaucasia: Ethnicity and Conflict, Greenwood Press, 1994 p. 95. I have also provided the fist Azerbaijani official figures supporting that contention and many other sources on that, on Khojali tragedy article itself.

Marshall has gone out of his way to voluntarily make concessions, and various, here was one example, to taint a little bit to satisfy the Azeri members. And this is how he is thanked by those same members.

But here is the situation; many of the members here are not in Misplaced Pages in good faith. Tabib who has voted, works in a tink tank organization which work with political parties in Azerbaijan, was a real life friend with Adil, who has associated himself with think thank organizations members of the republic of Turkey, like Sedat Laciner, and even got articles published by their journals, among many things denying the Armenian genocide and adhering to Laciner ultra nationalistic views. Then we have new members just recently created suspected to be socks, like Atabek, Dacy etc., who had no better than maintaining Adil versions and pushing over them.

So, if Raul want to take a fair decision, and while I admit to be maybe biased, while this would be involuntarily, I think it would be best to only take into consideration members who have not been involved with Azeri-Armenian conflicts on Misplaced Pages. For now, this is all what I wanted to say. Fad (ix) 17:41, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Resorting to personal attacks instead of responding to criticism is not the best way to deal with the issue. It is very sad that Fadix consumes so much space to slander other Misplaced Pages contributors, who do not hide behind the nicknames and contribute under their real names. Adil has a very good point. How come that the article lists Shamil Basayev as an Azeri commander, while he was never in charge of any unit of Azerbaijani army and never commanded any military operation during the NK war, and at the same time, the article never mentions such a prominent Russian mercenary as Zinevich, who was a chief of stuff in the Armenian army, let alone listing him as a commander. This shows that the article is very superficial. As for the telegram, neither of the quotes presented prove its existence. Time Magazine reporter only repeats what he heard from Armenians, plus they told him about some graffiti, and Fadix’s quotes are not about the telegram either. Grandmaster 18:46, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Slandering? No, I am actually describing the situation in which we are. Fad (ix) 22:49, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Where does it say Bassayev was an Azeri commander? Am I blind or are you blind? The footnote states he was in command of Chechens fighting against Armenian, for Azerbaijan obviously. No point to list mercenaries, unless they are notable individuals. I don't se how this guy is notable. Besides, Azeris had more money and had more mercenaries, if we start listing them guess who gets the shorter end of the stick.-- Ευπάτωρ 19:41, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Create an article on Zinevich and I'll include his name in the column (that is if it falls under WP:N. Your vague, stonewalling objections are becoming more superficial and non-existant as they come. Most of the neutral observers have pointed out actual problems in the article that I have no objections to rectify, but POV issues is not one of them. --MarshallBagramyan 19:05, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. After some further thought, I suggest that all of the quotations used to head sections be removed. They're unencyclopedic, instead making the text more of a narrative than a presentation of facts. It might be useful to mention some of the quotations in the body of some sections as appropriate, but only if they add significantly to the understanding of the section. —Cuiviénen 22:09, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Marshall, I agree that placing quotations on the lead of each sections is not encyclopedic, it gives more of a sensationalist look to the article, like the magazines bolding sensasionalist phrases in leads etc. Fad (ix) 22:52, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Consider to achieve a peer review and A-class rating on the Military history project. Several NPOV issues still remain, for example already in the lead: "As the war progressed, Armenia and Azerbaijan, both former Soviet Republics, became enveloped in a protracted, undeclared war as the latter attempted to curb a secessionist, irredentist movement in Nagorno-Karabakh". The opening of the background is one-sided. A POV could be traced in the referencing (6 Armenian sources). --Brand спойт 00:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I was the one that added the comment as to it being a irredentist movement, because this is how the conflict is objectively classified. Irredentism is a cause of many ethnically-driven conflicts in the world. Citing that as a cause of the war is not a validation nor a refutation of either side, nor is that description particularly partisan. It is an objective description of why there was fighting in the first place. --Petercorless 00:23, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Consensus-building

Folks, we need to develop a consensus about the quality of the article, and avoid personal aspersions or even comments about those commenting about the article. Why a person votes for or against an article matters to me far, far less than "Is it a good article or not?" I wish to use objective evidence, not subjective personal political positions. That said, I wish to address some of the issues brought about above, which are getting buried under cross-talk.

  • Footnotes -- If it makes for a better article, add the formatting. In the case of this article, it would help the professionalism and standardization of the citations. Laziness is no excuse. Neither is byte count.
  • Main leaders of factions should be shown in the infobox. If you want to have a more comprehensive list of military leaders of each of the participants, and perhaps a list of units under their command, you can have some sort of order of battle or leader listing in the article. It can include both civil and military leaders, wheras the infobox should be for military commanders only. Example: War in Somalia (2006–present): Key people.
  • Earthquake seems notable to mention, and I suggest to add the related verifiable published newspaper/magazine/book references so long as we do not beat a dead horse or argue ad nauseum. If there are objections, ensure to cite who made such claims to show they were assertions as opposed to provable/verifiable fact. If there are counter-arguments that these events or expressions never occurred or did not occur as asserted, then cite a published source where the refutation was made. No personal assertions or POV-based excisions. Back your statements. If you cannot, we won't delete simply because you find it an objectionable topic or reference.
  • Quotes at the start of sections -- Personally, I liked them as a stylistic engagement of a reader. But yes, they can be argued to be non-encyclopedic that way. Some of those taken away could be worked back in to the paragraphs either inline or as cquotes for the section.
  • Seems close to ready -- aside from some minor and often technical disputes which are never going to be resolved unless people put down partisan positions, this article seems about 95% ready for FA status. Remember that no article is ever complete, and just because FA does not mean the article is enshrined in a temple somewhere. --Petercorless 23:45, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Another comment:

  • Non-"third party" objections of sources -- If this was an article about World War II, it would be allowable to quote from either Churchill's six-volume history of World War II, or Hitler's Mein Kampf, as both individuals were personally and primarily involved. You cannot toss away a primary source by calling it POV. What you can do is note who the source is, and ensure that assertions, allegations, and other non-verified claims or opinions of an author, even if a primary source, are properly contextualized. --Petercorless 23:52, 13 February 2007 (UTC)