Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 16:57, 10 June 2022

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Politics High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. History High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the subject of History on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Historyhistory High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Lists Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Lists, an attempt to structure and organize all list pages on Misplaced Pages. If you wish to help, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.ListsWikipedia:WikiProject ListsTemplate:WikiProject ListsList Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Military history: Technology This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status: Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met Associated task forces: /  Military science, technology, and theory task force

Archives

Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3

This page has archives. Sections older than 120 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present.

January 6 US capitol storming is an attempted coup

It’s quite clear. Trump led a bunch of right wing conspiracy theorists like qAnon to storm the capitol. It is quite clear it’s a failed attempted coup. Trump was theoretically trying to take over the government and not to mention his call with Brad Raffenspurger, the Georgia Secretary of State. AsherDoodle1115 (talk) 22:35, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

This has already been discussed and rejected. Your opinion about it doesn't matter. We report what reliable sources say, without WP:Undue weight, and the weight isn't on the side of sources that characterized the event as a coup. ~Anachronist (talk) 23:12, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I think the January 6 riots were probably too much of a joke to really describe as an attempted coup. ~~Wikidude87654321~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikidude87654321 (talk • contribs) 14:37, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Colin Powell called this an attempted overthrow of the government, also known as an attempted coup. Bob Woodward: What about the Jan. 6 insurrection at the U.S. Capitol? Colin Powell: “It was awful. was going in there to overturn the government.” NS T429 (talk) 19:35, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

The Eastman Memorandum provided a legal theory for the coup. "John Eastman counseled him on how to retain power after losing the election." NS T429 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 19:41, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

The Associated Press offhandedly refers to the event as an attempted coup.

Capitol attackers call for death of Pence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NS T429 (talk • contribs) 20:20, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Your sources don't address the concern about undue weight, and you replied to an old conversation. Please continue the discussion in the section below, #2021 US Capitol "coup" again. ~Anachronist (talk) 23:02, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

2021 US Capitol "coup" again

@NS T429: Yes, it is easy to find reliable sources that call the January 6 incident at the US capitol a "coup". Misplaced Pages can do that only if that is the predominant term used by reliable sources.

As a rough indication (not definitive) here's what we find among news sources (not just any sources) archived by Google:

• 2021 capitol coup: 139,000 results
• 2021 capitol invasion: 127,000 results
• 2021 capitol insurrection: 1,650,000 results
• 2021 capitol riot: 6,050,000 results
• 2021 capitol attack: 8,140,000 results

The terms "coup" and "invasion" are the least prevalent results used by news sources. The terms "riot" and "attack" are most common.

For that and other reasons, our article 2021 United States Capitol attack is not titled "coup" either. We also have Attempts to overturn the 2020 United States presidential election#Description as an attempted coup. Note that in neither article does Misplaced Pages refer to the event as a "coup".

So, if you want to include this event as a coup in this article, make your case, change the consensus. I'll say that my own personal preference is to call it a coup, but my own preference or yours doesn't matter one iota here. We go by sources. It is already established that the term is used in some sources. It is not established that it is used by the majority of sources. ~Anachronist (talk) 22:49, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

But as a French loanword, and as an uncommon word in general, "coup" will always be used less than "insurrection" or "attack" in English media, so I am not sure if this is an appropriate standard. You yourself ascribe the behavior as a "coup" but is it really necessary that this term predominate over synonymous or nearly-synonymous terms before we can use it on WP? The situation has developed and the recent revelation of the Eastman Memorandum really changes the game here. NS T429 (talk) 23:45, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Concluding that "'coup' will always be used less than 'insurrection' or 'attack' in Englisgh media" based on linguistic arguments that they are all synonyms is original research. The point you are making does not change the fact that most sources don't call it a coup, and there is no reason for Misplaced Pages to do so either. Bringing up the Eastman memorandums is a non-sequitur. They change nothing, for three reasons: (a) the memorandums describe a change in a formal procedure and not inciting a riot; (b) the procedure outlined in the memorandums were not followed anyway, so the attempt was never made; and (c) the news media reporting was about the attack, not the proposed procedural change. ~Anachronist (talk) 22:59, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

The quality of sources should matter more than quantity. For example, if the consensus among leading historians and political scientists is that January 6 was a coup attempt, then that is what it was. It doesn't matter if other sources refer to it as something else. AugusteBlanqui (talk) 09:05, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Then by all means, the WP:BURDEN is on the proponents for this change to demonstrate that such a consensus exists among leading historians and political scientists. Nobody disputes that handful of quality sources can be found that call it a coup. Plenty more quality sources can be found that call it something else: riot, attack, or domestic terrorism as the FBI has officially labeled it. Quantity does matter when trying to establish what the consensus view is. ~Anachronist (talk) 04:21, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

] is a CNN Special Report by well-known U.S. reporter Jake Tapper titled "An American Coup". Westsider (talk) 08:36, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

@Anachronist, AugusteBlanqui, NS T429, Valjean, Viriditas, and Westsider: (and others) - Yes - *entirely* agree with "Westsider" above (and many others?) - time (maybe past time) to list the failed USA coup attempt of January 6, 2021 in the main listing articles (ie, "List of coups and coup attempts#2020–present"; "List of coups and coup attempts by country#United States") - fwiw - my related NYT comments are here => " https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/02/opinion/jan-6-trump-eastman-election.html#permid=114817926 " - And Here => "User talk:Drbogdan/Archive 10#attempted usa coup" - seems the holdup is "WP:ONEAGAINSTMANY" - and/or - "WP:OWN" - Comments Welcome - in any case - Stay Safe and Healthy !! - Drbogdan (talk) 16:06, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

References

1. Dr. Dennis Bogdan (2 October 2021). "Comment - Jan. 6 Was Worse Than We Knew". The New York Times. Retrieved 30 November 2021.

We aren't going to cite opinion pieces in the NYT to determine how Misplaced Pages should characterize the event. The citations about the Trump lawyer's memorandum are irrelevant, as previously explained. Nobody disputes that reliable sources can be found that call it a coup. And nobody has yet demonstrated that this is the consensus view among reliable sources now. Until that happens (and preferably, until our article on 2021 United States Capitol attack changes its title to reflect that consensus), this article has no business characterizing it as a coup, regardless of yours or my personal views on the matter. The holdup has nothing to do with WP:OWN or WP:ONEAGAINSTMANY, the holdup is WP:UNDUE. ~Anachronist (talk) 20:09, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

2021 US Capitol Attack Part 3

@AugusteBlanqui: I am sure you saw the comment in the 2021 section that reads "Please establish consensus on the talk page before adding the 6 January storming of the US Capitol". So, why do you insist on adding it to the list without establishing consensus first? Also, your argument that a charge of seditious conspiracy means that it was a coup is just your personal standard and does not matter to this list in the slightest. The only thing that matters is what most reliable sources call it. We report what reliable sources say, without WP:Undue weight, and the weight isn't on the side of sources that characterized the event as a coup. Where is the evidence that "coup" is the predominant term used by reliable sources to refer to this particular event? StellarHalo (talk) 01:15, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. Even though my personal preference is to call it a coup (as I stated in the previous section), I am not seeing a policy-compliant reason to do so, and no one has advanced an argument grounded in Misplaced Pages policies to do so either. I note that our article about the topic 2021 United States Capitol attack hasn't been renamed to call it a coup. Until that happens, this article has no business contradicting the primary-topic article. ~Anachronist (talk) 06:58, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Anachronist, here are some of today's headlines:

January 6 hearing: Trump accused of attempted coup | BBC

January 6 hearing: Trump was at heart of plot that led to ‘attempted coup’ | The Guardian

Capitol riot panel blames Trump for 1/6 ‘attempted coup’ | AP News

Bennie Thompson says Jan. 6 was the 'culmination of an attempted coup' | NPR

I may open a RM request at the main article. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:56, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Given that this event is happening as we speak we shouldn’t have to make readers wait the days or weeks for an arbitrary consensus here when the truth is you should honor the citations reporting on this, and then start taking a vote if you must to see if it should remain or be excluded. That Trump attempted a coup is not really being debated by the mainstream consensus in the press. Makofakeoh (talk) 16:57, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Rebel takeovers being added as coups

For some reason rebel group(s) winning or not winning after a civil war like the Taliban, Séléka, and CPC are being added as coups and coup attempts. They aren't. If we added all civil war and actual coups then this list would be a mile long and not be in any way helpful.--Garmin21 (talk) 03:46, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2022

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Add The January 6th 2020 Capitol attacks as an attempted coup. Thegoodguyas (talk) 21:52, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. see above discussions

Cannolis (talk) 22:17, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

• All unassessed articles
• List-Class politics articles
• High-importance politics articles
• WikiProject Politics articles
• List-Class history articles
• High-importance history articles
• WikiProject History articles
• List-Class List articles
• Low-importance List articles
• WikiProject Lists articles
• CL-Class military history articles
• CL-Class military science, technology, and theory articles
• Military science, technology, and theory task force articles