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*'''Bad RfC''' This should probably be shut down. This is the exact question posed at ]. We should just use the consensus at the Biden page and apply it to pages like this. {{ping|GoodDay}} maybe you should consider withdrawing this. ] (]) 03:25, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
*'''Bad RfC''' This should probably be shut down. This is the exact question posed at ]. We should just use the consensus at the Biden page and apply it to pages like this. {{ping|GoodDay}} maybe you should consider withdrawing this. ] (]) 03:25, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
*:I'd rather combine the two, under the Biden RFC. ] (]) 03:27, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
*:I'd rather combine the two, under the Biden RFC. ] (]) 03:27, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' - Just saying she's the 49th president doesn't tell you if that is the one who is in office now or not. Someone might say it's too obvious, but an encyclopedia is supposed to be matter of fact, even for "obvious" stuff. Also, this needs to be consistent with every current officeholder whose page says "current". ] (]) 21:41, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
===Discussion===
===Discussion===
Revision as of 21:42, 23 June 2022
view·edit Frequently asked questions
Q1: Why does Misplaced Pages say that Kamala Harris is African American/Asian American/South Asian American?
A1: Misplaced Pages content is based on reliable sources (see Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources). Many reliable sources, over a long period, refer to Harris as African American and Asian American, so Misplaced Pages reflects that in this article. Moreover, Harris's Senate and campaign websites state that she is African American and Asian American.
Social media posts have inaccurately suggested that Harris cannot be African American because she has an Indian mother and Jamaican father. As PolitiFact notes, (see A look at Kamala Harris' multi-ethnic background and racial identity in the US, PolitiFact (August 14, 2020)), "this is a poor understanding of history, and ... the implication that Jamaicans aren't African or connected to Africa is wrong on its face." While not all Jamaican-Americans identify as "African American," Harris and many others do.
When Misplaced Pages describes someone as the "first" to do something, we default to the larger category. Therefore, while Harris is the first Tamil-American, Indian-American, or South Asian-American to be Vice President of the US, we describe her, as reliable sources do, as the first Asian American to be Vice President of the US.
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I don't know where I can add a message requesting an edit to Kamala's wiki page, but I would like one of the mods to add a hyperlink to the 2010 California Attorney General's election that is in the second paragraph: "Born in Oakland, California, Harris graduated from Howard University and the University of California, Hastings College of the Law. She began her career in the Alameda County District Attorney's Office, before being recruited to the San Francisco District Attorney's Office and later the City Attorney of San Francisco's office. In 2003, she was elected district attorney of San Francisco. She was elected Attorney General of California in 2010 and re-elected in 2014. Can you link 2010 to the 2010 Attorney General's election? Thanks, Rhein Amacher, Tue May 10th 8:01 PM PST. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rhein Amacher (talk • contribs) 03:01, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
The consensus version for describing KH's achievement is the first female vice president of the US, the first African-American, and the first Asian-American. I'm on vacation until mid-February 2021. Admins valereee, MelanieN, Drmies, Muboshgu please note and restore; otherwise, the "ethnic" sub-nationalists and trolls will have a field day. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk»14:20, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
I concur this is the consensus version and I have restored it. "First female" is the first sentence since it is the most reported and most historic. "First African-American and first Asian-American" is the second sentence. Terms like South Asian-American, Jamaican-American, and (per the one I just replaced) Caribbean-American and should not be added without a new discussion and a new consensus. -- MelanieN (talk) 17:00, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
The edits I made did not contradict the overall achievement of Harris being the "First African-American and first Asian-American" Vice President, it simply provided further accurate and separate cited detail regards her own personal family's ancestry. Though I can see the FAQ, I do Respectfully request that someone please guide me to where consensus was actually reached not to include this information. ~ BOD ~ 17:27, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
And Bodney, the additional information about her ancestry is included in the body of the article, just not in the lead. -- MelanieN (talk) 18:51, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
Thanks, the lead reflects the article, but I do agree that not everything can or should be in the lead, especially when an article is likely to be extensive based on her own personal biography. ~ BOD ~ 19:58, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
They say Asian-American specifically in reference to being vice president. In that position, she is not only the first South Asian, she is the first Asian. We say South Asian for other positions, such as senator where she was the first South Asian but not the first Asian. -- MelanieN (talk) 18:51, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
If one goes far enough back, you will discover the consensus was South Asian-American. Then Sen. Harris was picked by VP Biden to be the VP nominee, and a large number of editors were attracted to this page. South Asian-American is how Sen. Harris identifies, and that is what should matter. Rklahn (talk) 07:07, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
I believe we had consensus that the largest group should be used for the "firsts", so rather than first South Asian-American VP-elect, first Asian American was what we went with. For the senate, first South Asian-American. My question was only whether that needed to be further explained in the FAQs. Not that anyone reads them, but it's good to document what current consensus is. —valereee (talk) 11:50, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
Im not sure such a consensus existed, but I am also not the Oracle of consensus. That begin said, yes, there is value in documenting what the current consensus is. I think it moves us closer to consensus having some of the attributes of Stare decisis. I think that this idea floating around Misplaced Pages that consensus can be achieved, and in the next moment ignored, counterproductive. Rklahn (talk) 14:51, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
Please tweak the FAQ to reflect her new status. Yes, it should be the first female, first African-American, and first Asian-American, in that order. In my view, Af-Ams takes precedence over As-Ams in the context of the US, not only because they go back further in this history of the US (indeed on average they precede even European Americans), but also because they have played a major role in the creation of the American ethos. Fowler&fowler«Talk»16:51, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
Valereee, The point Im getting at is that true consensus on Misplaced Pages is illusory. On this very page, on this very subject, I worked hard with a group of Editors to achieve a consensus, which we did. Out in the open and on these Talk pages. Less than a week later, that consensus was ignored. So, any move that gets us closer to consensus meaning something is welcome to me. Rklahn (talk) 21:01, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
Valereee I cant even find the consensus Im referring to in the Talk Archive. Im reasonably sure it happened before the Talk pages were archived at all, so maybe it got lost in the shuffle. I think at this point the best move for me is to drop the point, which is minor anyways, and to say that I support efforts to document the consensus, whatever it is. Rklahn (talk) 22:09, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
First African American is disingenuous (at the very least) to say she is African American. Her father was Jamaican...how is this a qualifier for African American inclusion? The last I checked Jamaica was in the Caribbean and not on the continent of Africa. My asking this question and pointing out the obvious probably makes me a racist and surely a half dozen other socially stigmatizing labels. Though an answer would be appreciated. Signed an unimportant IP address editor.2600:1700:7610:41E0:C5FD:ED64:EB06:3ADA (talk) 22:58, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
Wow! what a friendly and courteous answer from a arrogant and aggressive editor. I asked a question and I get sarcasm. Though in your response you do agree with me and yourself call her Afro-Jamaican and not African-American...hmm...interesting...don't ya think? This is probably why this article and many others do not get improved and only sink deeper into the abyss.
The second response was much friendlier and appreciated. Thank you. Though I still find it inaccurate and barring a family tree likely inaccurate to be described as it is. Wouldn't one of the terms Black Caribbean, Afro or Black West Indian or Afro or Black Antillean or Afro-Jamaican (as the first respondent used) to be more accurate in describing her ancestry seeing as no documentation or family tree is provided or cited within the article itself. I would think an encyclopedia should be as factual and reference filled before taking a large leap (of faith with assumption) such as this article has done. Thank you and have a blessed day.
2600:1700:7610:41E0:64D8:8847:54E7:E855 (talk) 09:57, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
I am Australian and only drop in here occasionally. To answer the comments above, her father was Afro-Jamaican. As she is American, that makes her both Afro-American and Jamaican-American. In Australia, we have politicians who were child immigrants from Malaysia, but they are both Malaysian-Australian and Chinese-Australian. As with many people, if you look at enough generations, you find all sorts of interesting history. --Scott Davis10:37, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
This is well covered ground. Countless editors have spent a long time discussing this, and 2600:1700:7610:41E0:64D8:8847:54E7:E855, you have brought nothing new to the conversation, and ask the same questions countless editors have asked. Please take the time to cover the discussions in the archives.
And what the heck? Ill repeat this too. You are confusing race with ethnicity. Race is grouping based on society's view. Ethnicity is grouping based on how people see themselves in common with others. Ms. Harris race is unimportant. Her ethnicity is paramount. She is African-American and South Asian-American. Rklahn (talk) 14:04, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
One issue that deserves a lot more attention in this article is her relationship with Willie Brown. While a 29-year-old deputy district attorney, Harris had an affair with then 60-year leader of the California legislature Willie Brown. While they were dating, Brown appointed Harris to two paid commission posts, and effectively jump-started her political career. As she would likely never have had a political career otherwise, an item of this significance should be prominently mentioned, perhaps in the lede. Certainly it deserves more than part of a sentence buried deep within the article. Vinny Gambino (talk) 22:24, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
We have discussed the Willie Brown connection many times, and seemed to reach a consensus that presents the facts in a balanced encyclopedic way with an appropriate amount of weight. That being said, if you have a proposed edit, let's talk about it. Rklahn (talk) 22:43, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
I also have a few of questions regarding Harris' past employment history, specifically her being hired as Alameda county Deputy DA in 1990 (she was 26-years-old). Two of the requirements for that job is almost always to have clerked for a judge and have experience as an attorney in private practice or as a Deputy DA. Harris had neither. In fact, she never had a job until she was given her Deputy DA job. It should be noted in the article, in my opinion, that she had a resume that should have precluded her from getting that job. She claims to have gotten "involved" with Willie Brown in 1994. Well, the lack of a worthy or notable resume seems to indicate someone - someone of considerable influence - pulled strings to get her that Deputy DA job in 1990. Willie Brown was certainly someone who at that time, being Speaker of the CA Assembly, could have arranged her employment as a Deputy DA in Alameda county. Alameda county was in his district at that time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:9000:6201:a79b:2913:a3bc:f1d3:c561 (talk)
Your opinion of the matter has no bearing whatsoever on a Misplaced Pages article. If you have an actual suggestion of an addition to an article, then by all means produce one, sourced to a reliable source. Zaathras (talk) 04:26, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
I don't think the requirements are that high. See for example Indeed's list of open positions. IIRC, there was little interest among graduates to work for the county DA. In any case, you would need a source that said their was something exceptional about this. Otherwise, it's just a case of a law grad getting an entry level job that paid below average. TFD (talk) 20:13, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
Remove It is redundant and against MOS. MOS:REALTIME gives the example: The information that "The current president, Cristina Fernández, took office in 2007", or "Cristina Fernández has been president since 2007", is better rendered "Cristina Fernández became president in 2007". . – Muboshgu (talk) 22:22, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
Remove. Relative temporal language should be avoided, since it will become inaccurate in the future (and even though the article about Harris is likely to be updated as soon as "current" is no longer true, there will still be permalinks, printed and other offline versions, and so on). Language which will always be accurate, even in a thousand years, is always preferable to language which will become outdated and incorrect. Seraphimblade22:34, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
Remove per jpgordon below, it is redundant. Redundant language bloats articles and takes longer to read. TFD (talk) 23:47, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
I support whatever the parallel Joe Biden RfC resolves as. The questions are the same (and I see no reason why one article should be worded differently than the other), but the Joe Biden article is more heavily watched so his RfC should attract more attention. Endwise (talk) 09:40, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
@Endwise: I considered combining the two RFCs at Biden's page, covering both Biden & Harris. But, didn't know how to do it. If someone knew how? I wouldn't object to it. GoodDay (talk) 21:20, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
Keep - Just saying she's the 49th president doesn't tell you if that is the one who is in office now or not. Someone might say it's too obvious, but an encyclopedia is supposed to be matter of fact, even for "obvious" stuff. Also, this needs to be consistent with every current officeholder whose page says "current". Useitorloseit (talk) 21:41, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
Discussion
"is the 49th and current" -- "and current" is redundant, since "is" means "right now". If "and current" was not there, would it be ambiguous or vague? --jpgordon00:44, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
Agree completely. "And current" is redundant with the present tense of the sentence. Why use two extra words that aren't needed? – Muboshgu (talk) 00:45, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
It should remain with "...and current", until this is settled over at the Joe Biden article. Best not to 'force' changes, without getting a consensus & best to keep the Biden & Harris bios intros in sync. GoodDay (talk) 21:44, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
Well, you just violated the discretionary standards here; perhaps you should revert yourself and back off a bit. --jpgordon22:44, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
I violated nothing. Would be better if you cooled off & let the RFC run its course & respect the 'current' status quo. GoodDay (talk) 22:50, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
There was no RFC on this page, and you did two identical reverts in 24 hours. I only became aware of the discussion there when you mentioned it here. What do you mean "cool off"? You're the one aggressively reverting, not me. --jpgordon23:41, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
If it's removed. Would "49th vice president of the United States, since 2021", be an acceptable alternative? GoodDay (talk) 21:18, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
It seems like excessive information. If she's the current VP, obviously she she hasn't served as long in her office as Elizabeth II. TFD (talk) 02:28, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
view · edit Frequently asked questions
Q1: Why does Misplaced Pages say that Kamala Harris is African American/Asian American/South Asian American?
A1: Misplaced Pages content is based on reliable sources (see Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources). Many reliable sources, over a long period, refer to Harris as African American and Asian American, so Misplaced Pages reflects that in this article. Moreover, Harris's Senate and campaign websites state that she is African American and Asian American.
Social media posts have inaccurately suggested that Harris cannot be African American because she has an Indian mother and Jamaican father. As PolitiFact notes, (see A look at Kamala Harris' multi-ethnic background and racial identity in the US, PolitiFact (August 14, 2020)), "this is a poor understanding of history, and ... the implication that Jamaicans aren't African or connected to Africa is wrong on its face." While not all Jamaican-Americans identify as "African American," Harris and many others do.
When Misplaced Pages describes someone as the "first" to do something, we default to the larger category. Therefore, while Harris is the first Tamil-American, Indian-American, or South Asian-American to be Vice President of the US, we describe her, as reliable sources do, as the first Asian American to be Vice President of the US.
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