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Khirurg

Khirurg (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · spi block · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)

For archived investigations, see Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Khirurg/Archive.

28 June 2022

– A user has requested CheckUser. An SPI clerk will shortly look at the case and endorse or decline the request.

Suspected sockpuppets

• Demetrios1993 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · spi block · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
• Tools: Editor interaction utility · Interaction Timeline · SPI Tools

I'm trying to add and change some thing in the article Ancient Macedonian language. These two guys have reverted my additions. On closer inspection about their history have noticed a pattern of contributing on the same articles and a lot of times making the same changes. The changes are related with national interests of their country Greece. I'm sure they are the same person.

Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Fustanella&type=revision&diff=1093082660&oldid=1093080921 https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Fustanella&type=revision&diff=1092719924&oldid=1092687964

Another example: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ereikoussa&type=revision&diff=1094459335&oldid=1094458974 https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ereikoussa&type=revision&diff=1094566067&oldid=1094539794

Another example: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Akhisar&type=revision&diff=1092817338&oldid=1092803669 https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Akhisar&type=revision&diff=1092860485&oldid=1092817338

Another example: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Othonoi&type=revision&diff=1094459159&oldid=1094458829 https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Othonoi&type=revision&diff=1094565795&oldid=1094539714 HelenHIL (talk) 23:53, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Comments by other users

Accused parties may also comment/discuss in this section below. See Defending yourself against claims.

Comment by Khirurg

I have no socks and never had any in the 15 years I have been editing, and of course a checkuser would show that. This is report is completely absurd. I mean, just look at the time signatures for crying out loud. Overlapping interests do not make users socks of each others. As for "behavioral similarities", well, even a cursory look at edit summaries would show that Demetrios' are in fact very different from mine (a good deal longer and more detailed). As for redirecting one's user page to one's talkpage...really? With this kind of "evidence", it is possible to link just about any two users. This report was filed by a relatively new account with ~100 contribs that has been pushing POV across several articles and reverted by multiple users (not just me and Demetrios), so this was likely filed out of frustration. I would also like to acknowledge Maleschreiber and SilentResident for their refreshing integrity and intellectual honesty in this matter. Khirurg (talk) 05:32, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Comment by Qiushufang

Comment: I've also had some weird interactions with Khirurg in the past. At one point i was accused of using a sock by another user and Khirurg popped up randomly in support of the accusation. I never had any previous interactions with Khirurg except that he had previously supported the accusing user in the past. The user accused of being my sock pointed this out here and here. They are also known as Athenian. Qiushufang (talk) 02:10, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Comment by Maleschreiber

• I've known both editors for about 2 years and I'm certain that they're unrelated. They have a distinct style of writing, discussing and debating and occupy a different ecological niche in the Balkan topic area. The partial overlap in editing history is the result of the Balkan topic area being such that over time the same editors will eventually - at some point - edit the same articles and it's likely that if they agree on some topics, they will agree on other related topics. It's the most common overlap. It is of course only partial because a closer search shows that in relation to editing history, Khirurg has an editing history more similar to mine than to the editing history of Demetrios. An element which makes it physically impossible for them to be the same person is that they have opposite editing hours. This means that if they're the same person, they're almost 24/24h online.--Maleschreiber (talk) 02:17, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Well thank you. I did not expect this, and I do appreciate it. Khirurg (talk) 05:35, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Comment by SilentResident

• Comment: It is unfortunate that Khirurg had accused Qiushufang of being a sock. It is important that all editors exercise restraint on their accusations (something which applies not only for other editors, but also for me). However the arguments used there to support sock claims are, at best, unfounded. The fact that one accused another for sock, doesn't mean necessarily that they themselves may be socks. I am a veteran editor on the International English Misplaced Pages for more than 12 years and one thing I can say for certain is that Khirurg and Demetrios are not socks of each other. Bbb23, by the way, I would gladly make the same reverts as Khirurg did on Erikoussa and Othonoi had he not been quicker than me. And perhaps Akhisar since the interests of Demetrius', Khirurg's and mine in these topic areas are quite similar. Editing the same topic areas doesn't make someone a sock of one another, I am afraid. I'm sorry Bbb23, but what you think there is enough evidence to warrant a check, but in fact, isn't. If checks were made just with as little and weak evidence as this, then everybody would request a SPI, lets say, for me and Khirurg (since we both are old editors in this project and been editing the same topic areas for decades) or even me and Demetrius as well, which amounts to an abuse of the SPI progress and constitutes a harassment of editors with whom we may have personal grievances. This needs to be stopped from happening. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ 05:53, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Quoting Bbb23: "Another note in reaction to Maleschreiber's comments about the times the two users edit. There are many instances in which the two editors edit the same page within minutes of each other. OTOH, the timecards generally of the two editors are different. Khirurg's times are very consistent. They edit much less frequently between about 8:00 and 16:00 UTC, whereas Demetrios1993, who has way fewer edits than Khirurg, does not clearly edit at any particular time of day, i.e., their edits are scattered over 24h. I'm not sure that any meaningful inferences can be drawn by these patterns as to whether they are the same person or separate people.": Bbb23, I am very familiar with all 3 editors, Khirurg, Maleschreiber and Demetrios, and whoever does the SPI, can only confirm what I know for certain: that they are not the same person but 3 different editors. And as far as I am aware, we aren't yet in a dystopian cyberpunk future where people may be awake 24 hours a day and never get tired ever. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ 15:06, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Comment by Othon I

I have known also these two editors for years in WP and I can vouch that they are unrelated. It is clear that they have common interests but their style of writing is completely different. It is absurd to initiate an SPI with the main accusation based on common interests... On the the hand, looking at the history of HelenHIL, the user has been changing various articles related to the Ancient Macedonians without consensus, violating a number of WP policies etc. It seems that their request is some sort of pay back due to being reverted... Othon I (talk) 08:48, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Comment by Βατο

I have known editor Khirurg for five years, and editor Demetrios1993 since his first steps in en.wiki . I have some experience in blocking sockpuppet accounts as a sq.wiki admin. Khirurg's and Demetrios1993's behaviors are among the most different I noticed in editors of the Balkan topic area. I can say they are two unrelated people, and I think a check is not necessary in this case. – Βατο (talk) 09:43, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Comment by Demetrios1993

There is not much to add here. Both the CU and the behavioral analysis will show that i am not a sockpuppet of Khirurg. Other than that, the partial overlap in editing history is only natural, since we both focus in the Balkan topic area. Due to this reason, sometimes we might end up having edits that are minutes apart from each other, as we are both active users who check their watchlists regularly. Bbb23 also claimed that my edit summaries are similar to Khirurg's, but i don't understand what that means; a closer look should show that they are actually quite different. On the other hand, Bbb23's observation that i don't edit at any particular time of the day – in contrast to Khirurg – is accurate. Demetrios1993 (talk) 14:27, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Comments by others

There is clearly a patter of a user writing something that is against the national interests of Greece (especially anything related with Albania) and then one of Demetrios1993 or Khirurg undoing the edit. If OP persists then the other steps in to undo again the edit. HelenHIL (talk) 14:14, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

You are welcome to Misplaced Pages. Keep in mind that when you have disagreements with the other editors over content, not just whatever content, but content on sensitive topic areas, where consensus was difficult to reach after years of debates both among academics and editors, then it is expected from you that more careful editing may be required, or even consensus depending on the content. In all case, your edit revert incidents with these editors do not constitute a sock case. In fact, your recent edits in certain Balkan topic areas indicate a certain POV which goes against the academic and editorial consensus; had not them been reverting the edits, it would be very likely that I would have stepped up and revert them myself. I guess, that makes me a suspect for sockpuppeting? Edit: ofc, the question is rhetorical, I am not really expecting a reply. And just a note: HelenHIL is currently blocked for 48 hours. Not that it matters here. - ❖ SilentResident ❖ 14:57, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

I would like to add:

1) Out of 4 editors that have taken the side of Demetrios1993 and Khirurg, the 3 are from Greece. This in normal but clerk should take that into consideration.

2) Especially on the article for the ancient Macedonian language, we have gone from an article that was very objective back in 12-2016

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ancient_Macedonian_language&oldid=754534948 which was corresponding with the references, to an article that doesn't correspond with the citations and promotes the national interests of Greece. The really big changes happened after the Prespa agreement in 2018 as if there was orchestrated stealthy effort.

3) Clerk should take his/her time to decide. There is no reason to rush. HelenHIL (talk) 15:22, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Responding to HelenHIL's points:

Point 1: Incorrect. The editors from Greece are fewer. Admins and CheckUsers can verify that. Therefore, HelenHIL is either making a false claim or simply rushed in their calculations.

Point 2: I won't respond to this, as I feel this to be redundant, however, I am leaving a note here about a related incident that happened just now: the editor HelenHIL has just been blocked indef, due to causing disruption on a WP:GA article, the Ancient Macedonians by ignoring the modern-day scholarly consensus, as well as the difficult compromises and consensus among several editors.--- ❖ SilentResident ❖ 00:14, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

• Comment This is a frivolous report by some one who keeps on spouting things like "Khirurg, Othon and Demetrios1993 are Greek and as you understand their position cannot be objective" even after having been blocked for 48hrs (for edit-warring and personal attacks). Naturally, people from the same area might share same perspectives (which is a good thing as long as we're working together how to include different perspectives in a balanced and due manner), but apart from that, Khirurg and Demetrios1993 are like night and day not just in their editing times, but also in their overall temper, style and diction. FWIW, I have experienced a retaliatory SPI once (claiming me to be a sock of another editor in good standing), and it was closed and deleted within less than a day. –Austronesier (talk) 10:31, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
• Comment Per Austronesier's sage observations. Thank you, Austronesier, for saving me the time to type similar comments. That these differences between Khirurg, an expert and veteran editor, and Demetrios, a distinguished scholarly editor, were not obvious to all, including experienced and distinguished SPI investigators, is a mystery to me, a mystery as big as the Bermuda Triangle. But, perhaps, this is where this SPI belongs: at the bottom of the sea. It's a wreck. Finally, when you see strong opponents of Khirurg and Demetrios coming to their defence, you know the SPI has sunk. Out of this mess, the only positive things that have emerged are the shining examples of intellectual honesty exhibited by Maleschreiber and Βατο. Kudos to both for that. I also thank CU Ed for his comments. This SPI doesn't need a CU. It needs a deletion at best, as Austronesier suggests, or a quick close at worst. Dr. K. 17:43, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Clerk, CheckUser, and/or patrolling admin comments

• CheckUser requested - At first glance, I thought the filer was just unhappy because two editors disagreed with her, but in looking at the evidence and doing some of my own investigation, I decided there was merit to the allegations. The page intersection between the two editors is enormous, including supporting each other on article Talk pages. The edit summaries are similar. Neither uses any special platform, e.g., mobile, for editing. Both users redirect their userpage to their Talk page. However, given the length of time the users have been editing and particularly the number of edits by the alleged master, I felt a check was necessary. In other words, I think there is enough evidence to warrant a check but I would be reluctant to block purely on behavior. Bbb23 (talk) 00:32, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

• For the benefit of a CheckUser reviewing this request, in the Comments by other users section, Khirurg posted their comments out of order chronologically and subsequently compounded the problem by updating their own comments to reflect their reaction to other users' comments. Instead of moving their comments, I decided this note would be sufficient in case the evolution of that section was confusing.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:19, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

• Another note in reaction to Maleschreiber's comments about the times the two users edit. There are many instances in which the two editors edit the same page within minutes of each other. OTOH, the timecards generally of the two editors are different. Khirurg's times are very consistent. They edit much less frequently between about 8:00 and 16:00 UTC, whereas Demetrios1993, who has way fewer edits than Khirurg, does not clearly edit at any particular time of day, i.e., their edits are scattered over 24h. I'm not sure that any meaningful inferences can be drawn by these patterns as to whether they are the same person or separate people.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:36, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

• I hope that one of the clerks will decide whether to endorse CU. So far I feel the evidence is vague. To add to the uncertainty, the filer of this SPI is blocked. In a nationalist topic area, it often happens that two people on the same side will happen to agree with one another without being socks. EdJohnston (talk) 03:10, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

• Ed, I hesitate to reply to your comments because it feels like (a) I'm arguing with a CheckUser (never a good idea at SPI) and (b) I'm somehow invested in my request (I'm not). I don't think the evidence is "vague"; it may not be enough evidence to warrant a check, but it's fairly precise evidence. Second, I don't see how the filer's block is relevant; I've seen socks filing reports at SPI that have had merit. Third, I agree with your comment about the topic area. For me, the key question here is whether there is sufficient evidence to warrant a check, which is not the same quantum of evidence needed to block based only on behavior. If I thought the evidence were strong, I would block without a check. Finally, you, or any other CheckUser, can decline a CU request without waiting for a clerk's determination.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:33, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

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