Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 03:58, 10 March 2005

Flag of Austria-Hungary

The flag shown in the article is NOT the flag of Austria-Hungary. It is the common merchant ensign (well, not entirely, two coat of arms have to be added). The Austrian-Hungarian monarchy didn't have a common national flag. Each of the two entities had their own one. There was just a common merchant, marine and war ensign (see for further details) Gugganij 19:42, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

We've had some confusion about the flag, so I'm glad you have helped clarify this. Do you think that the website you refer to would allow us to use their flags?

Peregrine981 20:49, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Fwiw, I don't know either way, but Flags of the World suggests that design was also used as a civil ensign… — OwenBlacker 21:26, Jul 29, 2004 (UTC)

The book Österreich-Ungarn, Die Donaumonarchie in historischen Dokumenten, Salzburg 1984. (Austria-Hungary, The Danube Monarchy in historical documents) written by Alexander Sixtus von Reden states the following (translated from German): Common flags of both states (i.e. the Danube monarchy) were the red-white-red war and naval flag with a crowned shield of arms added (in use since 1786) (example: War Ensign of 1880-1915 (Kriegsflagge)) in ) The common merchant flag is a combination of the war flag and the Hungarian flag supplemented with the small Hungarian coat of arms (example: Merchant Ensign, 1869-1918 in ).

In the German language Misplaced Pages we had a similar discussion (de:Diskussion:Österreich-Ungarn).

Unfortunately, I don't think that we can use the flags of and under the GNU-FDL(see their copyright statements). Gugganij 23:54, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Since the flag shown in the article is wrong, I think we should remove it. Gugganij 12:19, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Is it o.k. when I remove the flag in 4 days? Gugganij 22:45, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I'll just remove it today. Peregrine981 18:15, Aug 15, 2004 (UTC)

Absolute Monarch?

Those two were linked by a government under a monarch wielding, in theory, absolute power, although in practice the power of the monarch was limited. The monarch’s common government was responsible for the army, navy, foreign policy, and the customs union.

How accurate is the claim that the dual monarch held absolute power? What I've read elsewhere suggested that the monarch did in fact wield absolute power as Emperor of Austria, having authority (which was exercised on occasion) to suspend constitutional government and make law as an autocrat, his powers as King of Hungary were more limited by the Diet. Shimmin 17:21, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Depends on what you mean by absolute power. In theory he did have the power to suspend the constitution and pass unilateral decrees. However, he almost always consulted fairly widely and respected the wishes of regional diets and politicians in both Hungary and Cisleithania because he knew that his powerbase was increasingly fragile. He wanted to ensure continued loyalty from the nationalities, many of whom saw him as their "defender" to some extent. I think that fits the bill for not using his absolute power in practice.

Peregrine981 20:42, Aug 7, 2004 (UTC)

National anthem

The national anthem of Austria-Hungary was not Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser. It had the same melody but different lyrics (Gott erhalte, Gott beschütze, unsern Kaiser, unser Land...). Additionally, I am not quite sure if the anthem was also the national anthem of the Hungarian part of Austria-Hungary. I try to find out. Gugganij 10:39, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

By the way, that's the German text of the anthem since 1854:

   1. Gott erhalte, Gott beschütze
   Unsern Kaiser, unser Land!
   Mächtig durch des Glaubens Stütze,
   Führ' er uns mit weiser Hand!
   Laßt uns seiner Väter Krone
   Schirmen wider jeden Feind!
   |: Innig bleibt mit Habsburgs Throne
   Österreichs Geschick vereint! :|

   2. Fromm und bieder, wahr und offen
   Laßt für Recht und Pflicht uns stehn;
   Laßt, wenns gilt, mit frohem Hoffen
   Mutvoll in den Kampf uns gehn
   Eingedenk der Lorbeerreiser
   Die das Heer so oft sich wand
   |: Gut und Blut für unsern Kaiser,
   Gut und Blut fürs Vaterland! :|

   3. Was der Bürger Fleiß geschaffen
   Schütze treu des Kaisers Kraft;
   Mit des Geistes heitren Waffen
   Siege Kunst und Wissenschaft!
   Segen sei dem Land beschieden
   Und sein Ruhm dem Segen gleich;
   |: Gottes Sonne strahl' in Frieden
   Auf ein glücklich Österreich!

   4. Laßt uns fest zusammenhalten,
   In der Eintracht liegt die Macht;
   Mit vereinter Kräfte Walten
   Wird das Schwere leicht vollbracht,
   Laßt uns Eins durch Brüderbande
   Gleichem Ziel entgegengehn
   |: Heil dem Kaiser, Heil dem Lande,
   Österreich wird ewig stehn! :|

   5.An des Kaisers Seite waltet,
   Ihm verwandt durch Stamm und Sinn,
   Reich an Reiz, der nie veraltet,
   Uns're holde Kaiserin.
   Was als Glück zu höchst gepriesen
   Ström' auf sie der Himmel aus:
   |: Heil Franz Josef, Heil Elisen,
   Segen Habsburgs ganzem Haus! :|

   6.Heil auch Öst'reichs Kaisersohne,
   Froher Zukunft Unterpfand,
   Seiner Eltern Freud' und Wonne,
   Rudolf tönt's im ganzen Land,
   Unsern Kronprinz Gott behüte,
   Segne und beglücke ihn,
   |: Von der ersten Jugendblüthe
   Bis in fernste Zeiten hin. :| 

Gugganij 10:39, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The Austrian National Anthem's words were changed to honour each emperor in turn, though using the same tune. The original 1797 version was Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser for Franz II. After he died in 1835 the new emperor Ferdinand's anthem began "Segen Öst'reichs hohem Sohne / Unserm Kaiser Ferdinand!" ("Blessings to Austria's high son / Our Emperor Ferdinand!"). After he abdicated in 1848, the original words were reinstated for Franz Josef for a few years before the 1854 version was introduced. Apparently they never had time to rewrite the words for emperor Karl in 1916... -- Arwel 22:28, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Austro-Hungarian Empire etc

I've moved the links to the term 'Austro-Hungarian Empire' to that page which I've disambiguated. People often use this terminology for the country prior to 1867. Suggestions for further link consolidation are welcome... --Joy 00:18, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I've never heard "Austro-Hungarian Empire" for pre-1867. I've heard "Austrian Empire," "Austria", "the Habsburg Monarchy"... john k 00:39, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I figure it's local bias, people from areas that used to be part of the Kingdom of Hungary tend to refer to it like that because it may have been supremely Austrian but the Hungarians still had precedence/influence. Regardless, it is indicative that Transleithania was of the same size or larger than Cisleithania for at least 68 years before the Ausgleich (and after that they existed like that for 51 year). --Joy 01:12, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Well, the Kingdom of Hungary was the Kingdom of Hungary from 1699. But that doesn't mean that "Austro-Hungarian Empire" is an appropriate term for the whole entity before 1867. john k 04:50, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

You'd have to go through many of the articles to make sure the links are accurate. The article where I found this was Nikola Tesla (and Biography of Nikola Tesla), for example, where it refers to the Military Frontier as Austro-Hungarian (which is not so wrong because it wasn't part of either Cisleithania or Transleithania) in 1856. --Joy 11:40, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Cisleithania/Transleithania is post-1867 terminology, isn't it? And did the Military Frontier still exist in 1856? At any rate, while the Military Frontier existed, it was administratively separate from Hungary, but my understanding was that it was still considered a part of the Kingdom of Hungary. john k 19:38, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I don't know about the timing of that terminology, I was merely trying to say that the Hungarian domain was noticably large before the creation of Austria-Hungary (indeed, that was one of the main reasons for the latter action). The Military Frontier was finally abolished only in 1881, so it had to have existed in 1856. I don't know whether the Austrians considered it part of KoH, but it was centrally administered by Austrian military leaders from Vienna, not Budapest, so I wouldn't go so far to say that it was a part of KoH. --Joy 20:52, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Qertis wrote: This is absolutely ridiculous. Misplaced Pages should not become a collection of nonsenses.

Please go through all those links and verify that the references themselves aren't "nonsensical", too. --Joy 20:16, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

And just as I was beginning to think that I may just be going off on a tangent here, my watchlist came up with diff. The paragraph explicitly talks of 18th century, and yet the term used is "Austro-Hungarian Empire". And that anon. user mistakenly linked it directly to Austria-Hungary. --Joy 20:27, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

OK, so lets fix it and don't let anon users become confused. Qertis 23:09, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think we ought to create an article at Habsburg Monarchy which discusses the Habsburg agglomeration as it existed between 1526 and 1918, in order to avoid both incorrect usage of Austria-Hungary and a useless link to Austria. Currently, Habsburg Monarchy redirects to Habsburg, which is a decidedly confusing article, in that it's not sure what it's about. (At the very least, all the different lists on Habsburg ought to be moved elsewhere, I think.) john k 00:06, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I fully agree, such an article is badly needed here. Qertis 01:01, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I've had a go at creating it at Habsburg Monarchy. Mostly it's just trying to elaborate what the monarchy consisted of, and how it was organized. Pretty barebones. But a start, I think. john k 03:58, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)