Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:59, 23 February 2007

ellol

ellol, as you have not been directly involved, could you please move your comment from "Response" to "Outside view"?

Besides, the main point is not about whether Vlad is right or wrong. The main point is that he does nothing but follows our edits. To my opinion, this is wikistaliking at any rate, and very disruptive, as this discourages us from editing Misplaced Pages.

I wouldn't even object if Vlad edited Misplaced Pages according to his point of view and didn't follow us, but after two months I can hardly believe that it is possible. We meet him daily, and he has done virtually no edit in the articles that we hadn't contributed to before. It is a very technical matter whether he has any other edits or he hasn't. And he hasn't. Colchicum 02:11, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Also please note that this issue is not bilateral. We have never stalked Vlad. I.e. there are articles that have been edited or created by us only, there are articles that have been created or edited by us and then edited by him, but so far there has been not a single article created by him or edited by him before us. Colchicum 02:36, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The scale of the criticism in the POVs?

I've noticed Vlad Fedorov's changes of the Yevgenia Albats page. In my opinion, Vlad has added a distinct point of view to the article. I didn't like his point of view because it belittles and slurs the living person described in the article. Not that I only welcome celebratory sentences, but the scale of the criticism should, in my opinion, withstand the "10-year test" (WP:Recentism). ilgiz 16:12, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I would like to notice, that I don't introduce my point of view. What I had written on the Albats article is the point of view of teo well-known journalists Oleg Kashin and Elena Kalashnikova. I have provided resoective links to the sources. If you consider my contributions to be my point of view then youa gravely wrong, since original research is forbidden in the biography of living person. Your personal dislike of another POV is disguising your real intentions to delete anothor POV from the article.

Also I would like to remind to you, Ilgiz that it was you who edited that Albats received her professorship due to fraud. Here is this edit by you (cur) (last) 07:04, 14 February 2007 Ilgiz (Talk | contribs) (→Russian scandal - Change of title. NPOV.) by which you had inserted allegations of fraud. Initially, before your edit my phrase was a citation form Oleg Kashin in which is was stated that Albats received her professorship due to the apparatchik talent of Hign School of Economics rector. That means that you have convicted Albats of committing a crime without any sources supporting your allegations. How could you be objective in judging other users, if you had made such a grave mistake? Vlad fedorov 20:08, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Re to Vlad

First, users Biophys, Ilgiz and Colchicum never contacted me on a Talk page and tried to resolve the dispute.

The contacts are not required to happen on the user's talk page. There have been plenty of them on other talk pages, and Vlad is perfectly aware of this, as he has responded to them. With no consensus, as usual. Colchicum 22:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

In fact they just demanded me to stop the editing of the articles.

I am not aware of such demands. Could Vlad please provide a reference? Colchicum 22:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Second, they violate 'good faith' obligatory assumption in cliaming that I stalk them.

I don't know about Biophys' position, but as to me, I don't care about Vlad's faith. What I see is that Vlad has never tried to edit an article without our edits. This would be my conclusion even if he had been a bot. If it is not wikistalking, then I don't know what it is. Besides, Vlad's contributions are based on a very limited (to my opinion) knowledge of the subject and seem to be driven mostly by his emotions that have always happened to be opposed to ours. E.g. he claimed that Vladimir Potanin was married to a daughter of Boris Yeltsin (in the Izvestia article) and that Sergei Stepashin has never worked for the FSB (in the Galina Starovoitova article), which is blatantly false. He has also never or almost never used the tag, deleting all the information he found controversial instead. Colchicum 22:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I am a newcomer to the Misplaced Pages.

Vlad has been being active in Misplaced Pages for more than two months (since December 18). But if he is still considering himself a newcomer, it would be wise for him to behave less agressively and to be more discrete and open-minded. Yet he has been engaged in edit-warring, witnessed by two blocks. Colchicum 22:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I was brought to the Misplaced Pages, because the article on Boris Stomakhin created by Biophys was completely outrageous since it turned everything uspide down. Convicted criminal Stomakhin was presented as a hero, besides his calls to exterminate all Russians, to destroy Russian with atomic explosion, to commit terrorist attacks on Russian civilians.

Yes, most probably this is how Vlad has come to this. And then Vlad started to follow Biophys. Colchicum 22:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Third, accusations presented here were already taken up at vurtually every Administrators, incident, 3RR, BLP noticeboards and administrators talk pages. So they just mainly repeat their accusations.

Wrong. This is the first time we discuss the wikistalking pattern in general formally. Colchicum 22:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I have never received any warnings from administrators, because otherwise they would have gladly published these warnings already here.

Wrong, Vlad has been warned at least by admin User:Alex Bakharev of personal attacks, but later deleted this notice from his talk page: Colchicum 22:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I was just arbitrarily blocked by non-Russian, English speaking admin William Connolley.

And when Vlad was trying to call for review of the block, he called User:Physicq210 who tried to help him insane: Very civil behavior, indeed. Colchicum 22:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Fourth, these accusations pursue the goal to harass me and to stop me from contributing another POV into the articles dedicated to Russia.

I wouldn't mind if Vlad contributed to articles dedicated to Russia or anything else without pursuing us. Unfortunately, he seems reluctant to do so. He has never tried. Colchicum 22:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Fifth, I also would like to bring all these issues to the arbitration, because the allegations of Biophys and Colchicum that I violate Misplaced Pages policy by citing reliable sources defame me and are directed not on the sources, but on my person. I would like to have finally a decision of an arbitrator/mediator/administrator that my sources are valid and reliable, the are not contradictory and do not violate anything. The problem is that Biophys claims that every my contribution violates Misplaced Pages policies. This is a strategy taken by him in order to discredit every introduced material presenting other point of view.

I have brought here the case of wikistalking rather than reliability of the sources. Don't mix up the things. I claim that Vlad violates Misplaced Pages policy WP:STALK by wikistaliking us. Colchicum 22:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The underlying problem, in my opinion, is the personal dislike of me and revenge of user Biophys against me for the following:

1)Dispute over Boris Stomakhin article.

This discussion is about all 31 articles Vlad fedorov has contributed to, so Boris Stomakhin doesn't seem especially relevant here. Also this statement by Vlad fedorov goes against AGF. Colchicum 22:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

As could be seen from the complaint, applicants do not show the real evidence of me stalking them, they just provide links to the history pages of some articles. It could be seen from these pages, that my edits, contributed to these articles, are deleted by users Biophys and Colchicum in no more than 24 hours period.

It could be seen that every edit by Vlad without an exception immediately followed our edits, while we have plenty of edits in other parts of Misplaced Pages that have nothing to do with Vlad. Colchicum 22:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

That I do not follow edits of the user Colchicum and his claims that I disrupt his edits and Misplaced Pages activities are false.

I have never claimed that Vlad followed every edit by me or Biophys. I think this is well above capacities of anybody, if he doesn't want to devote all his life to this. I have claimed that every edit by Vlad followed our edits. Colchicum 22:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Moreover the articles which he refers to in his support were not created by him, but by user Biophys. Therefore, user Colchicum allegations are not supported by the real facts and are fraudulent.

AGF and no personal attacks, please. Besides, I don't understand why I am supposed to ignore the battle between Vlad and Biophys and to be concerned with myself only. Colchicum 22:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

User Biophys also openly acknowledged his personal stalking of me (user Vlad fedorov) here http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Colchicum#Thank_you:

Here Biophys simply explains me that I was wrong when I assumed (in User_talk:Alex Bakharev#Vlad) that it is not ethical even to look at anybody's contributions list. I was wrong, I agree. Colchicum 22:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

It could be easily seen that users Biophys and Colchicum conspired against me not because of stalking, but because my edits and contributions present other point of view, which they do not tolerate and make everything possible in order to harass and intimidate me.

Wrong. There are many pro-Putin, pro-Russian government etc. editors in Misplaced Pages, and we feel perfectly comfortable with this. We feel uncomfortable with somebody who stalk us. Colchicum 22:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Moreover, Biophys openly hinted on me as an agent of KGB working in the internet here 41.

This is simply ridiculous. Biophys said that according to the source he had cited, there are FSB agents on the Internet. I don't know to what extent this claim is justified, but he has never called you such agent. Frankly, you doesn't act like an agent. Colchicum 22:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

User Biophys and user Colchicum wage false accusations camapaign against me in order to punish me for presenting my POV in the articles which they feel are important for them. In order to disrupt my work, intimidate and harrass me, they accuse me of violating virtually everything in the Misplaced Pages and persistently publish their accusations on Administrators Incident Noticeboard, 3RR noticeboard, BPL noticeboard.

Could Vlad please prove the alleged persistence of such accusations with links? Colchicum 22:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

All this is done with one goal - to silence individuals having other opinion, to punish those who correct their intentional mistakes and malicious disinformation.

AGF. Besides. as far as I know, we have never complained about anybody else, so let's talk of an individual, not individuals. Colchicum 22:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

New episodes of wikistalking by Vlad

Episode 1

I corrected the transliteration of the name of Yevgenia Albats' father , but Vlad fedorov reverted my edits with the following summary: "rv - deletions of information which Ilgiz and Colchicum personally dislike. Deletion of sourced material is a violation of Misplaced Pages policies and vandalism." . Colchicum 13:36, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

So he doesn't even look at what he is going to revert. He just reverts every edit. Colchicum 13:53, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Episode 2

Vlad also continue deleting a perfectly sourced text from my recent article Persecution of political bloggers claiming nonsense: "rv - because Trepashkin is a journalist, not political blogger, as to FSB internet teams - it is not reliable source". As everyone can see, Mikhail Trepashkin is not related to this text at all. Moreover, all cited sources are perfectly reliable. One source in question is an internet journal with editorial oversight; all articles are signed and dated; this particular article was written by known journalists, one of whom is a former assistant of Galina Starovoitova; and I even provided English translation of this article (at the talk page). Obviously, Vlad continues wikistalking right now. Biophys 15:54, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Episode 3

Vlad continue deleting perfectly sourced official statements made by Union of Councils for Soviet Jews, where this organization condemns persecution of ethnic minorities in Russia. I explained at the talk page why these statements are important. Vlad simply ignores this. Biophys 16:04, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Episode 4

See Vlad editing of article Active measures that I have developed from stab level.

He writes in the first phrase: " Active Measures, according to the allegations of Mitrokhin Archive, are a form of political warfare conducted by by the Soviet and Russian state security and intelligence services" instead of "Active Measures are a form of political warfare conducted...". First, this is not an "allegation" but definition. Second, it is taken from a published book. Third, this definition has absolutely nothing to do with Mitrokhin archive. But Vlad has reverted this sentence many times!

Vlad inserts words "according to allegations..." at the beginning of each phrase, so the article is impossible to read (but all the references have been provided by me). He includes in the cases where references are included.

Obviously, this is typical wikistalking that completely disrupts my work in Misplaced Pages! I can not negotiate with Vlad about every such nonsense he is doing. I can only revert his changes. Do not you see? That is all my complaints are about.

Almost all his comments are like that. This is not helpful but disruptive. Biophys 16:58, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Episode 5

Please take a look at Vlad's editing of article Anna Politkovskaya. Clearly, this is a personal attack to defame this murdered journalist using unreliable sources. Biophys 16:08, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Episode 6

Take a look at Putin's Russia by Anna Politkovskaya. Vlad inserted a text that defames book's author, rather than discuss anything about this BOOK. I explained several times at the article's talk page that only criticism of the BOOK is relevant. Not only his editing is POV and defamatory, but it is also completely irrelevant to the subject of the article (the book). I provided a couple of links to critical reviews of the book, but Vlad ignored it and deleted one of the provided references.Biophys 16:30, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Reply to User:ellol (statement signed by Alex Bakharev)

(I mean this statement: Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Vlad_fedorov#Response_by_user_Ellol)

We alleged that Vlad violates WP:STALK, WP:BLP, and WP:CIV policies. This statement says absolutely nothing about that. Instead, it says that our dispute is only between two users. This is obviously incorrect. It involves Colchicum and me from one side, and Vlad and ellol from the other side.

It was actually User:ellol who tried to delete references to Anna Politkovskaya from article Human rights in Russia See: (16:04, 21 December 2006 Ellol (Talk | contribs) m (→Political prisoners and detainees - Oh Gosh -- again GULAG? -- kids, when you'll grow up?!). Together, with Vlad they did POV editing of this article. Just as we speak, User:ellol deleted from Human rights in Russia some statements of Sergey Kovalev, a member of Moscow Helsinki Group and former Ombudsman of Russia. Instead, he left statements by Vladimir Lukin, a state official appointed by Putin's administration.

False claims about Alex Bakharev

No statements of Biophys were signed by Alex Bakharev. Maybe we should ask Alex Bakharev himself?Vlad fedorov 04:41, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

• I am not sure what you want me to ask, but I will sure answer Alex Bakharev 04:53, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Please see the message of Biophys above, that claims it is sighned by you. Is it true?Vlad fedorov 05:04, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok I looked at project page and have seen your sign. Thanks Alex. Please, note that Biophys now inserts Putin Phallus at Political Bloggers article, which is weird since Rachmankov wasn't a blogger.Vlad fedorov 05:06, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Proposed conflict resolution (compromise)

Administrator physicq made the following suggestion: "I'm going to have to ask both to step back from the article and from each other", see Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive74#Boris_Stomakhin_article_and_inciting_of_ethinic_hatred. So, we can simply follows his advice and stay away from each other's edits. It means the following: I agree do not edit any articles where Vlad did any edits before me (whatever these edits are); and Vlad agrees to do the same with regard to articles I have edited. It is very easy to check who of us edited each article first. Same thing with Colchicum. Such decision treats Vlad and me completely equally. There are thousands of other articles in Misplaced Pages to edit.

Alex, I also would like to listen your opinion about this. If you disagree for any reason, we could discuss this proposal first with you and then with Vlad (so you could be a mediator if you agree). With great respect, Biophys 15:42, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Response to Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Vlad_fedorov#Outside_view_by_Alex_Bakharev

Alex, I disagree, but this is not the point. The point is: we want to find some practical solution without arbitration if possible. What I proposed above is the easiest practical solution. Vlad completely blocked my work in Misplaced Pages and made significant damage to work of Colchicum who is probably the best editor on modern Russian history at the moment, in my opinion (Colchicum spent a lot of time to file this claim, and it is for him to decide was his work damaged by Vlad or not).

Please take a look at the examples of "Episodes" described above at this page. One can go through many articles and see numerous examples of obvious and clear wikistalking by Vlad Fedorov. One can also take a look at Vlad's edits of Colchicum's articles, such as deleting of Putin's photo from article Vladimir Putin legislation and program. Obviously, that is wikistalking of us both. Otherwise, Colchicum would never filed this complaint. Biophys 16:58, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Response to Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Vlad_fedorov#Outside_view_by_xyzzy_n

I think this is a very biased comment. xyzzy_n said: "I feel that both users’ purpose here is not to write an encyclopaedia conforming to the core content policies but to make articles on Russian politics conform to their own political views." This is obviously wrong with regard to me.

First, I have created a number of articles in Misplaced Pages and worked seriously on many others. Half of these articles are science, not history or politics. All these articles are well sourced (I often provide 30-60 references), so there is no much place for POV. Therefore, I did not come to Wikipdeia to promote my personal views. Yes, I have certain views as everyone else, but main point is to produce good verifiable articles. I am working very seriously with sources. I invite anyone but Vlad to look at the articles that I have created or extensively edited and improve them. Vlad created no articles. The only thing he did is wikistalking, especially when Stomakhin article was locked (just as Colchicum said - so this is not only my point; it was not me who brought this complaint here).

Second, I negotiated probably with at least 50 Misplaced Pages users (including people who are "pro-Putin"), and never had any problems with them except Vlad.

Third, xyzzy_n claims that I did not actually try to enforce BLP policy. Yes, I did. Take a look here Talk:Boris_Stomakhin#Violations_of_LP_policy and judge yourself. Yes, I do have a bias toward writing non-offensive biographies of any living people whoever they are. So far, I was involved in four disputes of that kind on biographies of Sergei Kovalev, Boris Stomakhin, Yevgenia Albats and Mansoor Ijaz (he is also on the living person's notice board). You can check were my actions fair or not (I only asked everyone to provide a reliable source) . I had problems only in two cases Boris Stomakhin and Yevgenia Albats where Vlad intervene. Also note that I edited biography of Valentin Korabelnikov, a GRU boss who allegedly organized Russian apartment bombings. Note, that I did not write a single critical word about him, because this is BLP. These are my core values. And someone is telling that I am biased to promote my POV?!

Fourth, everyone can take a look at Talk:Boris_Stomakhin article and see that I actually tried to establish some civilized rules for this discussion after this article was locked. See this: Talk:Boris_Stomakhin#Setting_the_rules. I said there: "Let's have 3-day cooling off period." Vlad Fedorov rejected these rules. No surprisingly, we could not have a civilized and productive discussion. Still, I made a significant effort to negotiate with ellol and Vlad even when Vlad rejected these rules.Biophys 19:14, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

On the first and second point, I did not go through your contributions. If you have other areas of interest, why not just step away from Russian politics? On the third point, your understanding of WP:BLP is flawed. It does not imply hagiography but merely asks that articles about living people should be well sourced. On the fourth point, as anyone can see on that talk page, instead of trying to resolve the dispute quickly, you used stall tactics. With that, and also Vlad’s behaviour, in mind, my view is biased against both of you. —xyzzy_n 20:33, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you are reading my mind. I just would like to step away from Russian politics. But I have done some hard work there. Therefore, I can not allow Vlad to destroy all my work. Of course, there are many other people who are doing editing of the same articles (see for example, Anatoliy Golitsyn or editing of FSB by everyone except Vlad); but those are "good faith" edits (I even made once a change in response to a "simple vandalism" - but this "vandal" actually had a valid point - one of my statements was unsourced, so I deleted the statement, but Vlad restored it back - in Anatoliy Golitsyn). That is why I suggested "Proposed conflict resolution (compromise)" above. That would allow me to do something different. Is that "compromise" reasonable? Biophys 20:59, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Why we disagree with Vlad

One thing about WP:BLP rules. I believe the most immoral thing we can do in Misplaced Pages is a defamation of a living person who does not deserve it. And it is especially the case if this person (say Boris Stomakhin) has been unjustly arrested and sent to prison with broken bones, according to CPJ, ARTICLE 19, and Vladimir Bukovsky. I guess this is our biggest disagreement with Vlad Fedorov who is working to defame people who were killed for defending human rights (see his edits of Anna Politkovskaya and Putin's Russia). Yes, we do have serious disagreements with Vlad. But these are disagreements of moral values. That is why we can not reconciliate. Biophys 20:16, 23 February 2007 (UTC)