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Administrators' newsletter – July 2022

News and updates for administrators from the past month (June 2022).

Administrator changes AA • Gwalla • Ioeth • Laurascudder • Moriori (deceased) • Nat • Rfl Drilnoth → AFigureOfBlue Bureaucrat changes Lee Vilenski

Interface administrator changes Nihiltres

Technical news

• user_global_editcount is a new variable that can be used in abuse filters to avoid affecting globally active users. (T130439)

Arbitration

• An arbitration case regarding conduct in deletion-related editing has been opened.

Miscellaneous

• The New Pages Patrol queue has around 10,000 articles to be reviewed. As all administrators have the patrol right, please consider helping out. The queue is here. For further information on the state of the project, see the latest NPP newsletter.

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Question

It is customary for an editor to add this to another editor's user page? I thought only Admins were allowed to post such notices. Kansas Bear (talk) 23:17, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

• Thanks. I reverted and warned the editor. Technically, tagging pages can be done by anyone, assuming it is a proper tag. It is strongly recommended only experienced editors do it, but policy doesn't draw a line as most experienced editors (like you) typically know when it is needed, and when it is just grave dancing. In this case, the editor was indef blocked, with an expectation that they will eventually get unblocked. That isn't the same as a ban, so the actions by the tagger was wildly inappropriate. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:53, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

• You are welcome. I am not big on tagging user pages since it seems to be in rather bad taste if done by another editor. Whereas if done by an Admin, it appears to be simply them doing their job. Stay safe, Dennis Brown. --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:15, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

More false accusations

Hi Dennis. I'm sorry I don't add this in the AE report as it's already clunky on its on, but I thought you should be aware of this as the commenting admin. If you remember yesterday, in their second comment, Abrvagl added my diff from Talk:Imarat_cemetery#Reza as an evidence of "now removes properly sourced material with appropriate attribution by falsely citing WP:UNDUE". And as you remember, I asked Abrvagl to finally reply to my last talk comment instead of dragging several content issues to AE. I also asked to stop the false accusations. Some hours later Abrvagl replied on talk finally. The discussion went to the point that I felt like a third opinion is needed.

I requested a third opinion from Morbidthoughts. I specifically choose someone who's impartial, who agreed both with me and Abrvagl depending on the situation not the user. Clear examples when Abrvagl wanted to remove something and took it to BLP just not so recently; Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive339#Saadat_Kadyrova (, ), and when Morbidthoughts replied to my thread in BLP Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Hidayat_Orujov.

Abrvagl now accuses me of canvassing. I honestly don't know if this user legitimately has short memory problems, because it shouldn't have been hard to remember that Morbidthoughts agreed with them not so recently in two separate occasions. How is that canvassing? I barely know Morbidthoughts and only from BLP noticeboards and I specifically choose someone established, third-party, impartial. This is just another bad faith passive-aggressive accusation. For the record, I could've taken this to WP:THIRD, but then it would take too long to get picked up and in some instances, not to be picked up at all (as seen by Abrvagl himself who had to add another issue twice), and I personally thought this was a simple matter that Abrvagl refused to see. I made my request itself as impartial as possible. I honestly don't know when enough is enough of this user's bad faith unfounded accusations. I feel attacked even though I try my best and take good faith measures to solve our problems. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 09:15, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

• Please keep all AE related discussion at AE. I'm not going to spread it out over multiple pages. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:43, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

  I commented in AE as you requested. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 18:08, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

ZaniGiovanni

I saw the Arbitration Enforcement request and was researching it, because I thought that they had been at DRN recently. They were, and another volunteer mediated it. So I was going to say that it appears that they can settle their differences in an orderly manner when they try. So I agree with the closure, but was a few hours late to agree. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:22, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

• I think there was a 3rd opinion given by an editor with only 200 edits, which may have caused more problems than solving them as that is a bit new to be giving opinions. Even if you're right, people have trouble listening to a 3rd from someone without at least a couple thousand edits. Hopefully they will get some outside parties to opine. But yes, there really wasn't much we could do at this point. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 11:48, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

  Hi Dennis. I wanted to show you something if you don't mind. Abrvagl keeps disagreeing even with the established 3rd party user I asked third opinion from (you know the one where they falsely accused me of "canvassing"). It's very strange to me that this user doesn't practice what they preach considering as you said yourself, the third party discussion (which they weren't even part of ) they brought up in AE was being mediated by a 200edit 1-2 month old account, and they still tried to make a big fuss out of it, even though you yourself said it was utterly forgivable for me to have disagreement with someone inexperienced like that giving 3rd opinions.

  But now, when an actual established third-party user who has more experience than both me and Abrvagl combined, happens to take the opposite stance of Abrvagl, Abrvagl has no problem continually disagreeing with them on talk. But what do I know, this may just be ignored like the obvious false accusation I brought up in the above thread. Apologies for sounding a bit angry, because I am. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 21:57, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

  Dennis Brown, apologizes for this conversation on you talk-page. I really do not like this kind of conversations, but since it is second time Zani wrote to your talk page about me - I will reply one last time.

  Hi Zani, I am not sure why you imply that I "disagreeing", when in reality I was asking the question, which is obviously not a disagreement(Here is the comment of third-party). Also I am not sure why you talking about "AE was being mediated by a 200edit 1-2 month old account". Non of us noticed that AE was mediated by 200 edit newly created account. It was experience and professionalism of the admin who highlighted that, and after Dennis pointed it to me - I never mentioned that again.

  More, you know the one where they falsely accused me of "canvassing" - This is not true, I never accused you in canvassing. I gave you friendly advice. This is what I actually wrote: Zani, just friendly advice for the future, this may be considered as WP:CANVASSing. It is more appropriate to use third opinion tool if you want to get a third-party opinion. Seems to me that you took it on board as accusation, thus I apologize for that. I can assure you that I had no intentions to accuse you in that statement.

  Zani, I was not even talking to you. I specifically addressed my last replies to the Morbidthoughts in order not to disturb you(because you already stated your point of view and I understood it). I am not sure what made you believe that you need to reply and why you getting angry, but if you notice that you are getting angry, then it is always better to chill out.

  Have a nice day! Abrvagl (talk) 22:55, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

• Let me offer one thing, and understand that I do NOT understand the full conversation you are both involved in: Often, different cultures communicate poorly with each other simply because they come from different cultures, different way of expressing themselves, and because English is not their first language. You have to cut each other a little slack. This is very pronounced with Americans, like myself. America is such a large place, many go their whole life without actually meeting someone from a different culture, and when they do, there is sometimes fireworks. Both are good people, but the culture differences are so great and the two have little experience with this, so they get off to a bad start. That may or many not be the problem here, but I think the cultural differences of you two may be a problem. Step back, give a little good faith, stick to the facts. You both want to actually improve the article, I believe that. Then stick to that, follow the rules (ie: leave the words out until you agree on what to include), get 3rd opinions on sources if you must, at WP:RSN. But you both would benefit if you didn't think the other was out to "get you". It might seem that way, but it probably isn't the case. Cooperating is sometimes hard, but it's worth the effort. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:01, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

  I'll not be replying to Abrvagl here but I'll just point out a couple of things;

  I am not sure what made you believe that you need to reply and why you getting angry angry, but if you notice that you are getting angry, then it is always better to chill out.

  Not sure how they interpret "a bit angry" as "angry angry" (whatever that means), but they should know by now that I don't appreciate or want their passive-aggressive "advices" (saying to someone "this may be considered as WP:CANVASSING" in the middle of a heated debate sounds like passive-aggressive accusation, which was completely unfounded to begin with).

  Anyway, I appreciate your good faith efforts and comment Dennis Brown. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 23:09, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

• This is exactly what I'm talking about. You are both misreading each other and assuming the worst, talking past each other. I don't know the nationality or culture of either of you, but I'm betting they are different from each other, and that is making the problem worse. I see this all too often. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:30, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Notice of noticeboard discussion

There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrative action review regarding an action which you performed. Thank you. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:34, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

WP:AE

Howdy. Just wanted to clarify. I was 'pinging' you, only to help me understand what the other editor was wanting from me. I forgot that administrators aren't suppose to 'help', in that way :) GoodDay (talk) 00:51, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Arbitration Committee

Hi, the discussion page was put up with a notice from the AC. I'm not sure if the organization will officially intervene in the article or not, I'm not familiar with the process. Could you explain that? Beta Lohman※Office box 03:18, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• Also, the page is continually being removed from content. I would like to add new sources but there is a possibility of an edit war and I see that the discussion process has become political. Under what circumstances will the arbitration committee impose discretionary sanctions?--Beta Lohman※Office box 03:22, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

  Arbcom won't impose the sanctions, admin will, under the authority of the Arbcom ruling. These are generally stronger sanctions that can be applied unilaterally. Arb DS articles are closely watched, and people are quickly sanctioned for edit warring, POV, etc. Best to read the links on the notice itself, starting with the discretionary sanctions link to get an idea what all this means. Tread carefully. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 11:36, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• Okay. Would you take down the In use template on the article? No one will edit at the current time. --Beta Lohman※Office box 12:56, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Besides, what does the DS mean?--Beta Lohman※Office box 12:59, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• I won't remove the template because it should be there, as it is covered by that Arbitration case and is subject to the restrictions therein. Non-admin may NOT remove it, btw. Only admin may add or remove them. Again, you need to read the links on that template to understand. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 13:54, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Understood, even the In use template shouldn't be removed.--Beta Lohman※Office box 16:34, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

if it hasn't been edited in a couple of days, then it can be removed. That isn't an administrative template, it is an editorial template. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:12, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

AE ruling

I must protest your quick decision to t-ban me broadly construed. I've made 'no disruptive' edits to any pages concerning the topic-in-question. If I'm to be t-banned, it should be only from discussion pages (including user talkpages). Forgive me, but this does come across as a punitive measure, rather then preventative. PS - I contacted you 'here', as it says to do so. But if you won't reconsider? I'll follow the process & go over to WP:AN or ARCA. GoodDay (talk) 21:08, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• There seemed to be a consensus that the general topic was a problem and needed to apply, and I waited until there were multiple opinions before taking action. Keep in mind, Arbitration Enforcement is NOT a consensus board, all actions are by single admin not closed based on discussion, but it adds to the strength of the decision if there is a consensus, as there was here. I don't think I've ever banned someone from talk pages of a subject only, and probably never would, as in order to be able to edit an article, it is required that you use the talk page from time to time, particularly in contentious topics like this. All topic bans are "broadly construed" (to prevent wikilawyering) and always cover all pages on the ENWP. There may be exceptions, but I can't think of any. Basically, your GENSEX topic ban was a very vanilla topic ban, the same as all others I've done, I've never done a topic ban that was "less" than this. You can always appeal it at WP:AE or WP:ARCA (maybe WP:AN, not sure), although I would recommend waiting a couple of days to cool down, gather your thoughts, and prepare. AE has a template at the top of the page specifically for this. Which venue is best, I really couldn't say, although some say AE is better because it is more heavily trafficked. And it isn't punitive. I'm pretty easy to predict; my sanctions are pretty much centered around solving problems, and gender related problems aren't limited to singular pages, but instead tend to be very general and spread to other pages rather quickly, requiring full topic bans to remove disruption system wide. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:29, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Nothing personal. But, I've taken this to WP:AN. GoodDay (talk) 21:49, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Perfectly fine, no offense taken at all. I think you will find that language is almost always included in topic bans, however. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:52, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

I hope clarity on it will be forthcoming. At the moment, I'm hesitant to edit any pages, unless I thoroughly read them 2 or 3 times over, to make certain they aren't in any way connected to LGBTQ issues. GoodDay (talk) 22:08, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

I will be a little hit and miss, but generally available. I will be here to ask question. I'm not spanking you and sending you to your room, I will help you along the way, as I truly want you to NOT get blocked. You will have a better understanding in under a week. If in doubt, come here and ask first. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:06, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

My thanks. I think we both agree, Arbcom's ruling on GENSEX was meant to help bring editors together. I can only hope, it's not doing the opposite. Sometimes, the best laid plans, can backfire. GoodDay (talk) 23:11, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

The primary purpose, honestly, is to allow editors who are able to edit in the area peacefully, the ability to do so without disruption. Same as with any DS or GS area. The goal isn't rehabilitation or punishment, it is simply to restore order in a topic area so editors can focus on improving articles, and those that aren't playing nice in that area, can go play nice in a different area and be constructive. In the end, it's all about the reader, and the reader benefits most when everyone editing in a topic area is playing by the rules. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:20, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't doubt, that was their goal. I just hope they haven't (not meaning to) created a blunt instrument, for any editor(s) advantage :( GoodDay (talk) 23:33, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

There are a LOT of discretionary sanction areas, I'm guessing you haven't had experience with them. The outline for enforcement, etc is basically identical for each of them. They essentially give admin a blank check to keep the areas running smoothly, allowing strong sanctions without prior process, although they are always appealable. What keeps it manageable isn't Arb, it's the admins. Rarely do AE cases get reviewed by Arb, and only at ARCA. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:38, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Dennis, during the ARE I noted Newimpartial's needling editors. The ink on the block has hardly dried and NI has done it again . Suggesting that GoodDay's comments are now null and void (my words) is both inconsistent with how things have been conducted in the past and is more needling of the editor now that they are no longer allowed to reply to the topic. This is effectively grave dancing. Springee (talk) 22:18, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm about to eat, but please get me a few diffs, and if needed, I will explain what I need to them. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 22:30, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Some of these are from the ARE. Recently Newimpartial was involved with an edit war (they didn't violate 3RR but the other editor did). After the other editor was blocked for 24 hr Newimpartial continued to press the matter after the other editor made it clear they were done with the discussion. When it was clear they were not welcome they continued . Newimpartial also pinged the editor to NI's own talk page after it was clear they were not welcome on the editor's page . Eventually the blocking admin stepped in . I made a case that Newimpartial did the same to GoodDay (see the second paragraph). Now they are have gone to the original dispute page and made it clear an editor was blocked . I feel this is a type of GRAVEDANCING (Insults/accusations/other behavior directed at editors who are now blocked or banned. This is motivated by the idea that the editor in question won't be able to respond to the comment. ) as it highlights the sanctions brought on another editor. They are also arguing that comments made by GoodDay prior to the block don't matter since they are now blocked claiming that the lack of consensus means their views don't apply to any consensus discussion that might come out of the current discussion. While none of this individually is an issue, taken as a whole I can understand how an editor would get frustrated with this and then cross a line when responding to this sort of abuse. As an aside, my initial comment above resulted in this message on my talk page . Springee (talk) 01:20, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Well, Springee, thank you for providing diffs for once rather than casting ASPERSIONS. As far as your GRAVEDANCING accusation is concerned, I think I have made it quite clear at Talk:Jordan Peterson that I am not directing any insults or accusations at the topic banned editor. What I am doing is insisting that the pause in that discussion did not represent some set "no consensus" outcome, which is what you proposed to implement. I have three times now advanced the idea that a new RfC or noticeboard process take place to achieve consensus, but your only response has been for insist that there was no consensus achieved in the ongoing discussion. Rather than collaborating on a way forward, you seem to be insisting that a "no consensus" outcome had been reached, when the discussion is in media res; essentially you seem to be WP:GAMEing the inclusion of the views of an editor who, according to WP policy, is not permitted to participate in the resolution of this issue.

As far as your other accusations of needling go, I would point out that rhetorical questions and tit-for-tat edit summaries are not semantically equivalent to a straightforward request not to edit an editor's personal Talk - something I always respect. As far as my ping of Clicriffhard to my Talk, I find it telling that you offered the diff of their reaction rather than my actual pinging comment () - I simply corrected the record about whether or not they had earlier asked me to avoid their Talk (they had not, they had just employed the rhetorical questions mentioned above) and observed that they had made a number of personal attacks based on the assumption that I was misrepresenting their arguments. I attempted to clarify this situation. My ping of the other editor may have been ill-advised, but my on-wiki experience has not led me to the conclusion that letting other editors who make personal attacks have the last word is generally a helpful approach. The idea that any of my edits represents a sort of abuse meant to push other editors to the point where they cross a line in frustration/exasperation, remains both unsubstantiated and a huge WP:AGF fail on your part, Springee. Newimpartial (talk) 19:07, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

I provided the same diff in the ARE thus the "for once" accusation rings hollow. It's unfortunate that you can't see the problems with your own behavior in these matters or how your actions are needling other editors. When an admin told you to knock it off that should have been a clear signal. If we grant that your needling is not intentional then there is a lack of self awareness. Perhaps the best thing you can do is agree that you will limit talk page discussions to the article changes only and never comments about editors themselves. For example, suggesting an editor is pushing a POV is not OK. Suggesting an edit they are making reads as pushing a POV is acceptable since that is about the article, not the editor's intent. When it comes to user pages, null edits with accusatory edit summaries are never OK. If you can acknowledge that then I will agree this was unintentional and shouldn't be a future issue. Springee (talk) 14:24, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Any "needling" you perceive on my part was certainly unintentional. But the edit summary you refer to as "accusatory" read in full, if you look at the history of my Talk page, you'll see that reverting with commentary in my edit summary is my standard approach to closing Talk sections; it wasn't anything personal, nor did it imply a Talk page "ban". If you want your reverts to mean something different, I'm afraid you'll have to communicate that in some way, whether text or semaphore - which was a response the edit summary "You reverted me, remember" - in a context where the editor in question had not communicated in any way that I was unwelcome on his talk page. So Springee, your treatment of this as "accusatory" seems pretty clearly to be a misreading of my edsum.

As far as your ASPERSIONS are concerned, I was referring to edits like your unsubstantiated claim here:

You have taken a disagreement related to content and tried to turn it into a morality dispute. You are trying to contrast disagreements related to the quality of sources, a discussion that is absolutely allowed, with trying to needle an editor with whom you disagree thus creating an opportunity to use behavioral sanctions to achieve victory in what should be a basic content dispute

That edit presented no diffs, nor have you supported your morality dispute, trying to needle an editor and creating an opportunity to use behavioral sanctions to achieve victory WP:ASPERSIONS before or since. Given this, I find your repeated references to "good faith" to be somewhat ironic, when placed in context. Newimpartial (talk) 16:35, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

You did take a content disagreement and try to turn it into a morality issue here for example (note that was after I suggested removing the full sentence so no issues with deadnaming etc) and here where you ignore my point about showing this tweet as something consistent with Peterson's long time position on compelled speech (bill C-16 and the like) and instead threw out a CIR accusation. Even if you don't see this as turning a content dispute into a morality dispute, it is a violation of the third bullet here WP:TPYES. Such concerns should be raised on a user talk page, not the article talk page. Again, doing it on the article talk page is needlessly provocative even if that isn't your intent. Anyway, Dennis can do with this what he wishes. Springee (talk) 18:53, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Springee, on that first diff, I was responding to your immediately preceding comment - just say "X happened because Y" or include the full sentence, where you were most definitely proposing to include the deadname as the only alternative to paraphrasing both quotations.

In the second diff, you're right that I may have moved too quickly to sense CIR. But your supposition that If the objective is to say he doesn't support altering common speech to placate revisionist language (or how ever his objections would be summarized) still entirely misses the point of Peterson's tweet, which was to deny Elliot Page's gender identity and to insist that the action of providing gender-affirming surgery to Page was "criminal". Nobody cares whether or not the tweet was consistent with Peterson's long time position on compelled speech, as you have just formulated it - nobody asked for Peterson's opinion on Page's gender identity on Twitter, much less compelled it, and it doesn't seem reasonable to assume that Peterson's attribution of criminality to this particular instance of gender-affirming surgery does anything other than express his actual view, which Twitter then evaluated as hateful conduct.

I will strive harder in future to make sure my comments narrowly concern the contribution, not the contributor, but I would observe that a lack of self awareness and an inability to see the problems with your own behavior in these matters may not be attributes that I have monopolized in our dialogue on Talk:Jordan Peterson (or here, for that matter). In any event, I trust Dennis Brown to offer exactly as much or as little comment on our edits as seems appropriate to a busy admin. Newimpartial (talk) 20:29, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

• I'm not getting involved. Feel free to talk amongst yourselves in this thread. I'm confident you will work it out. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 20:34, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
  • Dennis, would you please ask NI to stop the GRAVEDANCING? The mention of the block here was totally unnecessary and yet another example of behavior which would needle a sanctioned editor. Springee (talk) 14:08, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
    • Springee, why would a sanctioned editor be reading this 3RR filing you made against another editor?
    • Also, it was your ally in that discussion who mentioned the four separate editors questioning inclusion, and the fact that one of them was topic banned as a result of a discussion that took place largely in the Talk section referred to seems to me to be relevant to evaluating the state of said discussion, which is what your ally was appealing to. Newimpartial (talk) 14:24, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
      • Given that the tban doesn't impact consensus nor the edit warring why would you mention it? Let's be honest here. GD wasn't tbanned for things said on the article talk page. It was due to a gender based personal attack on a user talk page. Beyond that, they were in good standing at the time they opposed the content thus their opposition is valid. If someone who supported inclusion then got tbanned for calling me a stinkybutt would you say "Well now it's 3:3". I would oppose that exclusion just as I oppose the one you are inventing. Springee (talk) 14:59, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
        • Please stop WIKILAWYERING. We are talking about a discussion that did not produce consensus but which has not provided a "no consensus" outcome, either. Your constant insistence that we continue to validate the participation of an editor who was topic banned from this topic as a result of editing related directly to this discussion is, at the very least, contentious. I do not know what you mean by the tban doesn't impact consensus in this context, since the (somewhat) related reference in GRAVEDANCING refers to established consensus, which this isn't. So given that we are sifting through the views of editors in good standing to evaluate NPOV and DUE, I don't know why you keep trying to GAME in the views of a banned editor.
        • Also, I think I have a better point of comparison than your stinkybutt example. Imagine that I were participating in a "race and intelligence" Talk discussion, and in my frustration at one of the other editors in the discussion, I used the n-word to refer to that editor on some other editor's Talk. If I plead my case at ARE and get away with only a R&I topic ban, would you really be arguing that my previous comments in that Talk discussion were still valid in determining the consensus of that discussion? Would any good faith editor make that argument? I'm afraid I just can't see it. Newimpartial (talk) 15:25, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
    • I don't see that as grave dancing, I see that as pointing out a fact, not as celebrating the misfortune of others. There may be a little pointy-ness to it, but we can't really micro-manage conversations like that. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:27, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
      • As a stand alone comment I agree. However, as a pattern I think it's an issue. I'm certain it will continue to happen. That said, if I'm willing to be proven wrong if NI is willing to state they will not mention it going forward. Springee (talk) 14:59, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

AE appeal withdrawl

Hello. Would you close the AE appeal as withdrawn, please? GoodDay (talk) 03:02, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

• I can't. I'm definitely WP:INVOLVED in the case since I issued the original sanction. You need someone who isn't involved to close, after you say you want it withdrawn in the discussion. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 07:20, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

That's ok & I also understand what you told me about DS being the same for all topics. In future, I'll consider requesting a modification at WP:ARCA (asking for an exemption for main space), but not for at least another 3-6 months. PS - I apologies for being a tad 'angry' yesterday. Indeed, you're a fair-minded & patient administrator. GoodDay (talk) 20:22, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Generally, they want you to always wait 6 months, and be able to explain how you understand what you did wrong, and what you will do in the future to make sure it isn't repeated. That is also par for the course in appealing: "I'm sorry, I was having a bad day, it's not something I normally do, I've learned to stay away from editing when I'm having a bad day, it's not something I'm proud of but it won't be repeated". That kind of thing. As for being angry, I understand, which is why I didn't take it personal. It isn't that unusual to want to blow some steam, so I try to be patient. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:15, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Agreed, 6-months at least & yes, the goal is to convince editors that the preventative measure, is no longer necessary. GoodDay (talk) 21:56, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Clarification: Is there no interaction ban between myself & any editors? GoodDay (talk) 05:56, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

• As I said in the close " I would instead offer this REQUEST that all three parties simply avoid each other, so we don't have to visit further sanction. ". This means you really should treat the situation as if there was an interaction ban, because you are very close to having one put on you. They should avoid you as well. But technically, there is not an interaction ban. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 12:23, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Behaviour (not here) was occurring these last five days, that was annoying. I was just hoping this 'behaviour' has come to a resolution by now or will soon. I can't further explain the situation. GoodDay (talk) 12:31, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

It is still fresh on everyone's mind, best to just avoid those areas. What people say about you has nothing to do with who you are. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 13:57, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

It's good to see that an editor who wanted me blocked, ended up being a sock. GoodDay (talk) 01:08, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

A question

Something happened a 'few' days ago, that's left me frustrated. I would like to mention what it is 'here', but I don't know if I'm allowed to. GoodDay (talk) 15:57, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

• Then you probably aren't allowed to. The question is, is this something you should just let go, or is it a real problem that requires admin intervention? If it is something that needs intervention, I would suggest emailing an admin instead. I would be a poor choice to email this weekend, btw. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:01, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't have email. Therefore, I'll let it go & won't elaborate any further. GoodDay (talk) 16:25, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Some fairness

Hiya. So while I basically agree with you on your proposal at ANI, I feel compelled to say this: If you make a proposal against an editor to indef that editor, you really shouldn't (I'd even say can't) also be the person who collapses, hides, edits, or otherwise restricts in any way, the editor's responses, even if they're long (or even if they're personal attacks or whatever). It's a matter of basic fairness. Since you're the person proposing the indef, you can't also control the editor's responses. Know what I mean? It's like, you can't clerk your own proposal. Please uncollapse and leave it to somebody uninvolved to clerk. Levivich (talk) 14:18, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

• I'm kind of 50/50 agreeing, via "what any admin would do", but it's on the cusp, and it's a reasonable request. Done. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 20:15, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  Thanks! Levivich (talk) 20:56, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Casting aspersions

While I did not have the cultural training for it, I now understand the difference between "they did a copyvio" and "they are a plagiarist". That's why I have retracted the offensive words by striking them through. I mean: I already did that before you warned me at WP:AE.

Born and grown in a culture of "you are what you do", it was hard for me to grasp this difference. tgeorgescu (talk) 09:56, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

• I was raised in that same culture, however, at Misplaced Pages, you have to collaborate with many, many different cultures, so you have to parse your words a little more carefully. And you have to assume good faith, meaning that some people don't understand, or are used to wording things differently. You have to be willing to coach more, accuse less. That is the nature of a collaborative project. Being self-employed forever, and a preacher of self-reliance and initiative, it is a challenge for me as well. The good thing is, people like me benefit from working at Misplaced Pages because you do learn some new social skills that help in the real world. I'm 16 years into Misplaced Pages and still learning. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 10:31, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Admin's Barnstar
	You've been doing a lot of not fun stuff like clerking WP:AE recently. I want you to know that I appreciate that, and it's been very helpful for keeping the process running smoothly when not a lot of people are willing to do that kind of work. –MJL ‐Talk‐ 05:30, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

• Thank you, that is very kind. I put the original in my Ronco Barnstar Vault, where my barnstars. AE is probably one of the least fun things to do as admin, so I understand why others don't want to do it. Since the community granting the bit (10 years ago now), I kinda feel like I should spend at least some time doing things that aren't that joyful, but are necessary. It is certainly a challenge, and that cuts both ways. And again, I appreciate the sentiment. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 11:53, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

I think I may have said this to you before, but I so agree. You do some really thankless tasks. You well deserve this. - jc37 12:07, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Acknowledgment of breach of WP:ADMINACCT , and thanks for covering for me

Hi Dennis,

Context:

• Special:Contributions/Anlyam
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:Anlyam

I failed to notify the user of their block and and also did not explain why they had a Partial block.

It's been a hectic month at work, and I kind of conked out yesterday night. Earlier this week, just before going down to the End-of-trip facilities to bicycle home, I said to a colleague, "I'm exhausted, and its only Wednesday", then realised it was actually Tuesday.

While this may explain my WP:ADMINACCT breach, it in no way excuses it.

Thank you for remedying my mistake here

Pete AU aka 10:21, 30 July 2022 (UTC) Shirt58 (talk) 10:21, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

• Shirt58, sometimes we all forget or get sidetracked. I wouldn't call it a breach, just an oversight. The rule is "should", not "must" and sometimes there are valid reasons to not notify (ie: it's blindingly obvious), I just made the effort because the edits seems to have some good faith, just bad skills. But no problem, it's a team effort. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 11:48, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

FWIW

FWIW, I've removed my posts per your advice at Lugnut's talkpage. Just wanted you to know, I was trying to help Lugs, not hurt him. GoodDay (talk) 00:31, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

• I know, but using the incorrect term "ban" was setting a ticking time bomb. He isn't banned, which would require a lot of hoop jumping to undo. Ban is a whole different animal than an indef block, which can be overturned instantly. I'm not trying to help or hurt, I have no issue with him personally, although I'm curious to find out the truth. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 10:55, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

In the end, he ended up getting banned by Arb, GoodDay, but he wasn't at that time. The page is a lightening rod right now, one best avoided for the most part. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:25, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

I was hoping that all four parties, would've gotten no more then topic-bans. It's sad to see a long-term established editor getting shown the door. I hope he was exaggerating about the copyright violations & other errors. GoodDay (talk) 23:28, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Admin's Barnstar
	Good to see familiar names around still, thanks for your good work. Andrevan@ 06:18, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

• Thank you. My participation varies by time of year and workload, but I'm still addicted to the original principle of Misplaced Pages, so I hang around. Not as many of us that joined in the early days left. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 10:57, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Good to see you're still about, Dennis. You're one of the reasons I switched from thinking "adminship is for other people" to "well, maybe I've got something to offer with the tools", and I've still got them seven years later (despite thinking a few times they ought to be yanked). Ritchie333 14:13, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

• • So, you were thinking "If this idiot Dennis can do it, surely I can" huh?  ;) Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:15, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Can you please remove protection template from First Union or Shorten the Expiration time to 3 days

Because I'm gonna Add Sources 107.77.224.86 (talk) 18:12, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

• Too much negative traffic from unconfirmed accounts. Just post the change and sources on the talk page using the {{request edit}} template. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 18:15, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Not sure if you've seen or not, but the IP appears to be evading *many* blocks... - Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/John Cena Fan 2002. Magitroopa (talk) 18:46, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Banned user template

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User:Lugnuts&diff=1102200227&oldid=1102197733 - it was correct before; the template intentionally does not display for arbitration bans, and there is a separate category. 82.132.185.128 (talk) 22:29, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

I was just about to say this. It's intentionally hidden, though I'm not sure why. --Rockstone 23:59, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

• The people adding it seemed perplexed that they couldn't see it, so I assumed they wanted it visible. I'm not sure what the purpose of an invisible template is, and I question that, but I went ahead and reverted. I don't have a preference, I was just trying to help out. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:07, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

• I think the point of the template is so that the user still shows up in the category of arbcom banned users. But I agree, it's silly, just wanted to give you a heads up. -- Rockstone 00:09, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – August 2022

News and updates for administrators from the past month (July 2022).

Administrator changes

Valereee

Anthony Appleyard (deceased) • Capitalistroadster • Samsara

Guideline and policy news

• An RfC has been closed with consensus to add javascript that will show edit notices for editors editing via a mobile device. This only works for users using a mobile browser, so iOS app editors will still not be able to see edit notices.
• An RfC has been closed with the consensus that train stations are not inherently notable.

Technical news

• The Wikimania 2022 Hackathon will take place virtually from 11 August to 14 August.
• Administrators will now see links on user pages for "Change block" and "Unblock user" instead of just "Block user" if the user is already blocked. (T308570)

Arbitration

• The arbitration case request Geschichte has been automatically closed after a 3 month suspension of the case.

Miscellaneous

• You can vote for candidates in the 2022 Board of Trustees elections from 16 August to 30 August. Two community elected seats are up for election.
• Wikimania 2022 is taking place virtually from 11 August to 14 August. The schedule for wikimania is listed here. There are also a number of in-person events associated with Wikimania around the world.
• Tech tip: When revision-deleting on desktop, hold ⇧ Shift between clicking two checkboxes to select every box in that range.

• Discuss this newsletter
• Subscribe
• Archive

Thank you

Hello, Thank you for addressing my concern, question please, So I understand how is the process, for any future incidents, I should try talk with (talk) on his talk page 1st before i try to notify admins? I am just getting lost because i tried before notifying Mattythewhite, but he never answered me, then I wrote on C.Fred also didn't hear from him even I saw he made other contributions, so I googled online and found something admins can't solve dispute between two editors that the reason they don't answer and if someone has concern use Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents (section). is it ok If I contact you in the future here if I have any troubles after I try first talk with the editor on their talk page? and the admin post I wrote yesterday, should I delete it since it is not needed? thank you 108.30.205.112 (talk) 12:42, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

• A couple of things: if you have a content dispute, you should always try to solve it on the article talk page, so you, that person, and others, can participate and find a consensus. If it is a behavior issue, then you try to talk to them on their talk page, politely. Admins do not get involved in content disputes unless there is a behavioral issue going on, like edit warring. Admins are not obligated to get involved with any issue they don't want to get involved with, for any reason. Admins are volunteers, who get to pick and choose what they involve themselves with. We generally have full lives outside of Misplaced Pages, and there are many reasons why we might not want to handle a problem. ANI and other admin boards should only be used as a last resort, after other methods of communicating have failed. If the problem is content related only, then you don't need an admin, you need WP:Dispute resolution. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 13:22, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

  yeah, I understand, thank you for the clarification.

  happy Friday :). 108.30.205.112 (talk) 13:57, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

New Page Patrol newsletter August 2022

Hello Dennis Brown,

Backlog status

After the last newsletter (No.28, June 2022), the backlog declined another 1,000 to 13,000 in the last week of June. Then the July backlog drive began, during which 9,900 articles were reviewed and the backlog fell by 4,500 to just under 8,500 (these numbers illustrate how many new articles regularly flow into the queue). Thanks go to the coordinators Buidhe and Zippybonzo, as well as all the nearly 100 participants. Congratulations to Dr vulpes who led with 880 points. See this page for further details.

Unfortunately, most of the decline happened in the first half of the month, and the backlog has already risen to 9,600. Understandably, it seems many backlog drive participants are taking a break from reviewing and unfortunately, we are not even keeping up with the inflow let alone driving it lower. We need the other 600 reviewers to do more! Please try to do at least one a day.

Coordination

MB and Novem Linguae have taken on some of the coordination tasks. Please let them know if you are interested in helping out. MPGuy2824 will be handling recognition, and will be retroactively awarding the annual barnstars that have not been issued for a few years.

Open letter to the WMF

The Page Curation software needs urgent attention. There are dozens of bug fixes and enhancements that are stalled (listed at Suggested improvements). We have written a letter to be sent to the WMF and we encourage as many patrollers as possible to sign it here. We are also in negotiation with the Board of Trustees to press for assistance. Better software will make the active reviewers we have more productive.

TIP - Reviewing by subject

Reviewers who prefer to patrol new pages by their most familiar subjects can do so from the regularly updated sorted topic list.

New reviewers

The NPP School is being underused. The learning curve for NPP is quite steep, but a detailed and easy-to-read tutorial exists, and the Curation Tool's many features are fully described and illustrated on the updated page here.

Reminders

• Consider staying informed on project issues by putting the project discussion page on your watchlist.
• If you have noticed a user with a good understanding of Misplaced Pages notability and deletion, suggest they help the effort by placing {{subst:NPR invite}} on their talk page.
• If you are no longer very active on Misplaced Pages or you no longer wish to be part of the New Page Reviewer user group, please consider asking any admin to remove you from the list. This will enable NPP to have a better overview of its performance and what improvements need to be made to the process and its software.
• To opt-out of future mailings, please remove yourself here.

Delivered by: MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 21:24, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Advice

Hello Dennis, I would kindly ask You for advice how to handle certain situation. I did not post anything in WP:AN as someone suggested that might do, instead I write to You. There is an issue about renaming art. and there have been discussion about it for some years but finally, there consensus was reached. Its about spelling Polish Clans, as here. Because of the consensus, I asked to rename one certain Clan name so it would be spelled in the same way as others. Consensus about it was reached and the art. name was renamed 20th of September 2020. Although consensus and renaming was published on talk page, one editor X reversed renaming to old spelling 31st of December 2020. That change was reverted by another editor that also reminded about the consensus. Then, 16th of June 2022, same editor X reversed back again to old spelling. I asked then again to rename as of previous consensus. Problem I face is that the editor X that change/ revert disregard consensus and its about behavior - that the editor X disregard any agreements or consensus that is reached and even if administrator decide to rename, he does not respect that. There are lot of other issues with this editor X but the main thing is that even if if I kindly ask this editor X to not change without further discussion on Talk page, he does not respect that. Even if we now reverse his edit and rename back art. according to consensus, he will in the future change it again. Im sorry8 to bother You with such questions but I really dont know what to do with this issue, how to handle it and therefore kindly ask for advice how to proceed. Best regards,Camdan (talk) 13:44, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

• Hard to say without links. If there is a clear consensus, meaning several people (not just 2 or 3) agreed to move, AND you have pointed that person to the discussion, you may have to go to ANI. That is disruptive editing. If there wasn't a clear consensus, then you need to go to WP:RM with it. The advantage of RM is that it is easy to sanction someone going against a RM discussion, without the need for ANI. It all boils down to if the original discussion passes muster for a "global consensus", ie: there was enough participation that it is obvious what a consensus would be if the whole joint voted on it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:10, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
  • Thank You Dennis. Here is the link to the talk page - se at the end. Also, if You view history of the art., on 31th of December 2020 this guy Nihil novi renamed art. although there was consensus of 20th of September 2020. However, that action was reverted by another editor with comment where he point on the consensus. The reason of renaming as of consensus was previous agreement to spell all Polish Clans in same way, here is the link. Also, Nihil novi renamed art. name already in August 2016 (You see it on the talk page) without any discussion. At that point, we agree to rename to "Clan Ostoja" (I supported to change to "Clan Ostoja"). However, later all Polish Clans was spelled as "Clan of XXX" and that was the reason of WP:RM. This show that Nihil novi have been trying to rename art. name without any discussion and disregarding any consensus for 7 years now. What do You then suggest I should do? Or, if You think that this is disrupting editing, is it possible for administrator (for example You) to write this guy a message? I just feel 7 years is now to much and I would rather avoid 7 years more :) Regards,Camdan (talk) 11:35, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Akim Ernest (talk) 21:56, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. <span data-dtsignatureforswitching="1"></span> Akim Ernest (talk) 21:56, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

CU skill sets

Regarding this comment of yours, specifically the CUs aren't chosen for the behavioral review skills part. I've never heard it stated that way, but at least in my case, it's true that my skills are more on the technical analysis side and weaker on inferring nuances from people wrote. I often feel like I'm wimping out when I slap {{behav}} on a case and toss it back on the checked queue. Now I won't feel so bad about it. -- RoySmith (talk) 15:42, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

• You shouldn't feel bad. Lot of people are good at reading personalities and comparing diffs to see similarities, but aren't technically skilled enough to deal with IPs, ranges, and the technical side. It takes all kinds. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:47, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

AE sanction template

needs to be substituted, thats how it adds the signature and why when you press edit section without subst:'ing it youre getting placed in the actual AE sanction template. nableezy - 00:04, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

• Thank you. I knew that, but forgot that I knew that. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:04, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Request for Arbitration Notice

You are involved in a recently filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Conduct on Portal:Current Events and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. As threaded discussion is not permitted on most arbitration pages, please ensure that you make all comments in your own section only. Additionally, the guide to arbitration and the Arbitration Committee's procedures may be of use.

Thanks, Carter00000 (talk) 10:10, 14 August 2022 (UTC)