| Revision as of 13:23, 4 June 2022 editMcferran (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users6,810 edits →Nomination of Julian Chadwick for deletion: new section← Previous edit | Revision as of 00:40, 13 September 2022 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,307,002 editsm Archiving 1 discussion(s) to Talk:Sovereign Military Order of Malta/Archive 2) (botNext edit → | ||
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| http://www.orderofmalta.org/pdf/costituzione.pdf | http://www.orderofmalta.org/pdf/costituzione.pdf | ||
| the only official language is the italian. | the only official language is the italian. | ||
| == Requested move 19 December 2019 == | |||
| <div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top --> | |||
| :''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. '' | |||
| The result of the move request was: '''consensus not to move''' the pages to the proposed titles at this time, per the discussion below. {{#if:|<small>(])</small>|{{#if:|<small>(])</small>}}}} ]<small>]</small> 10:28, 27 December 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ---- | |||
| * ] → {{no redirect|Order of Malta}} | |||
| * ] → {{no redirect|Order of Saint John in the Holy Land}} | |||
| * ] → {{no redirect|Order of Saint John in the Americas}} | |||
| * ] → {{no redirect|List of Grand Masters of the Order of Malta}} | |||
| * ] → {{no redirect|Palace of the Grand Master of the Order of Saint John}} | |||
| * ] → {{no redirect|Langues of the Order of Saint John}} | |||
| * ] → {{no redirect|Order of Malta passport}} | |||
| * ] → {{no redirect|Postage stamps and postal history of the Order of Malta}} | |||
| * ] → {{no redirect|Orders, decorations, and medals of the Order of Malta}} | |||
| * ] → {{no redirect|Flag and coat of arms of the Order of Malta}} | |||
| * ] → {{no redirect|Foreign relations of the Order of Malta}} | |||
| * ] → {{no redirect|List of diplomatic missions of the Order of Malta}} | |||
| * ] → {{no redirect|List of diplomatic missions to the Order of Malta}} | |||
| * ] → {{no redirect|List of Permanent Observers of the Order of Malta to the United Nations}} | |||
| * ] → {{no redirect|Conquest of Rhodes by the Order of Saint John}} | |||
| * ] → {{no redirect|Order of Malta in England}} | |||
| * ] → {{no redirect|Order of Malta in Russia}} | |||
| – I know this has been brought up before. But I'm not sure it has been brought up trying to embrace the topic as whole, which arguably merits a collected discussion? For a visualisation of the issue, please compare the History section in ]. Actual final choice of naming should arguably be secondary to the concern of ] of ] ] (=] for the contemporary entity) where applicable? The idea is to use "Order of Malta" consistently for the contemporary entity and "Order of Saint John" for the entity prior to Malta. ] concern is in reference to a selection of preexisting articles chosen to be considered considered default as a place of departure for the nomination: ''Contemporary:'' ], ''Pre-Malta:'' ], ], ], ], ]. ] (]) 17:49, 19 December 2019 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. What problem are you trying to solve? ] (]) 23:52, 19 December 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :: The idea is to try to go at least from four to two names for the same entity. One and the same name would be preferable, but perhaps that is wishing for too much. Anyway, better proposals per ] that I could come up with would be welcome. ] (]) 00:03, 20 December 2019 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. This would misleadingly conflate multiple historical entities in various centuries and countries under the title of "Order of Malta", with the latter title primarily referring to the contemporary organisation based in Rome. --] (]) 00:43, 20 December 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :: Then why limit to 4 names? I am sure you can find more variations for referring to the same thing throughout its history? ] (]) 01:09, 20 December 2019 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. We don't rewrite history. Successor organisations such as the Sovereign Military Order of Malta and the ] may claim connection to the Knights, but we're not going to treat them as if they were the same thing. There may well be some sorting-out to be done here – I can see a case for splitting the list of grand masters into two, for example, one for the Knights, another for the nineteenth-century successor order – but I see little logic in the naming proposed, and no sources cited which might support such changes. I also note, for what it's worth, that "" occurs more than four times as frequently as " on JSTOR. ] (]) 10:21, 20 December 2019 (UTC) | |||
| *: gets twice as many as Knights of St. John on JSTOR. ] (]) 16:59, 21 December 2019 (UTC) | |||
| 1) Sovereign Military Order of Malta, 2) Order of Malta, 3) Order of Saint/St./St John, 4) Order of Saint/St./St John of Jerusalem, 5) Saint/St./St John of Jerusalem, 6) Knights Hospitaller, 7) Hospitallers, 8) Knights of Rhodos... and now also 9) Knights of Saint/St./St John. Any more variations? ] (]) 13:12, 20 December 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :I'm sure there are plenty. "" is another very common one. What's your point? ] (]) 21:11, 20 December 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ]? ] (]) 11:18, 21 December 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :...does not override COMMONNAME. ''Knights Hospitaller → Order of Saint John in the Holy Land'' makes no sense at all. ] (]) 16:59, 21 December 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ::: Let's see. So for ], we should have a history article ], then ], then ]... and 4 other names for Coca-Cola for articles about other related topics, such as ] and perhaps add some ]? Would that be helpful? ] (]) 19:31, 21 December 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Coca-Cola hasn't been around for 900+ years. We'll see what it looks like in 2939. ] (]) 20:34, 21 December 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: Are you implying a one and only entity here in question has been around for 900+ years? ] (]) 22:24, 25 December 2019 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. ——] (]) 15:57, 22 December 2019 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. Striving for consistency is something I sympathize with, but for an entity with such a complex history, it tends to have a distorting effect. ] ] 17:43, 25 December 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ---- | |||
| :''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a ]. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this ] or in a ]. No further edits should be made to this section.''<!-- Template:RM bottom --></div> | |||
| == Transition period == | == Transition period == | ||
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Referencing and citation: criterion not met
Coverage and accuracy: criterion met
 | Sovereign Military Order of Malta was a good article, but it was removed from the list as it no longer met the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated. Review: August 9, 2006. (Reviewed version). |
Archive discussion
- /Archive 1 (was an independent talk page when we had two versions of the same article)
Order of Knights of the Hospital of St. Lazarus of Jerusalem
Any information about the Order of St. Lazarus of Jerusalem?
Proposed Merger
The two new articles should not be merged with this one. They are written by representatives of Don Grady, and put forward fraudulent text from a blatantly self styled order. These two articles should be deleted rather than merged into this one.
New Picture
If someone could find the cross of Knights Hospitaller (which I believe was a white cross on a black background) or their seal and replace the portrait of the Knight at the top of the page, that would be a big improvement.
official language
for the constitution of the order http://www.orderofmalta.org/pdf/costituzione.pdf the only official language is the italian.
Transition period
During the 17-years transition period between the defeat of Malta and the General Peace, the head of the Order was named Lieutentant of the Magistery and it was ad interim the Grand Master of the Order. A free article of Notes and Queries (4 April 1863, Oxoford University Press) argues that "it is an important fact, and implies that the Order could not have been in the disintegrated state in which it is represented to have been". So it is relevant for the WP article, as well as for the history of that period.
The article cited the Synoptical Sketch whose text is available there (at p. 21). One of the authors is the Grand Secretary and Magister in repect of which Grand Magister' and Grand Master' sound to be the same charge.
The same N&Q of 4 April 1863 was notably replied few days later by the Freemasons Monthly Magazine (April 18, 1863, p.3), as to establish an implicit connection between the Sovereign Military Order of Malta (in the XVIII century) and the Scottish Rite Freemasonry refounded some decades before. England had a role in the defeat of Napoleon who led the French occupation of Malta. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.51.12.102 (talk) 09:08, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
Congress of Verona (1822)
Did the Congress of Verona in 1822 "guarantee the continued existence of the Catholic order as a sovereign entity"? In terms of international law, is the Order "an establishment of the 19th century, recognized at the Congress of Verona of 1822"? If so, is there a reliable source for these statements? Jeff in CA (talk) 09:03, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
Exile
"the formality of electing a brother Chief to discharge the office of Grand Master, and thus to preserve the vitlaiy of the Sovereign Institute, was duty attended to"
I can't find language ressembling this in the cited sources. I am unfamiliar with the noun "vitlaiy", which I suppose might be a typo of "vitality". I haven't bothered to correct it, because I intend to delete the sentence as "Not supported by cited sources", and because I have no way of knowing if my interpretation is correct. I'll leave that deletion for a couple of days, to give fellow editors who are better-informed than me to correct the passage, or put me straight on my reading of the sources. MrDemeanour (talk) 11:26, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
Sir Miles Davis
Hello, see Miles Davis (later years) to find a cited claim that the Knights of Malta honoured the jazz legend with a knighthood. This is impossible and yet there it is. Ha Ha - it is clearly someone's joke from 1988. Question: The notes in this article clearly show they do not honour artists and their work is of a completely different nature. It will not make any sense to a reader. What should be done?Thelisteninghand (talk) 21:26, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
- Thelisteninghand, I don't get it - why do you say that this is "impossible" and "someone's joke"? Elizium23 (talk) 01:12, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
- Because both are true.Thelisteninghand (talk) 15:36, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
- Thelisteninghand, you have no source or documentation or evidence that this is so. It's just your say-so. It's textbook WP:OR. This is Misplaced Pages, where we summarize what the sources say, not impose our own conjectures. Elizium23 (talk) 15:49, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks. Incorrect. The evidence is the documentation that shows the Sovereign Order of St John do not and have never honoured artists PLUS the fact stated in this article that they are often impersonated. Yes that's textbook OR agreed. But it is not simply an opinion. I cannot edit on this basis obviously which is why the text is still there. I realise this is WP.Thelisteninghand (talk) 16:02, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
- Thelisteninghand, no artist has ever joined the SMOM? I find that hard to believe and even harder to document. Elizium23 (talk) 16:08, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks Elizium23 Please look for yourself. https://www.orderofmalta.int Thelisteninghand (talk) 19:27, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
- Thelisteninghand, I see the front page of their website. Where is the disclaimer, "artists are not welcome as members"? Elizium23 (talk) 00:12, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
- Thelisteninghand, no artist has ever joined the SMOM? I find that hard to believe and even harder to document. Elizium23 (talk) 16:08, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks. Incorrect. The evidence is the documentation that shows the Sovereign Order of St John do not and have never honoured artists PLUS the fact stated in this article that they are often impersonated. Yes that's textbook OR agreed. But it is not simply an opinion. I cannot edit on this basis obviously which is why the text is still there. I realise this is WP.Thelisteninghand (talk) 16:02, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
- Thelisteninghand, you have no source or documentation or evidence that this is so. It's just your say-so. It's textbook WP:OR. This is Misplaced Pages, where we summarize what the sources say, not impose our own conjectures. Elizium23 (talk) 15:49, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
- Because both are true.Thelisteninghand (talk) 15:36, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
Elizium23 https://en.wikipedia.org/Category:Knights_of_Malta Sir Miles Davis is not a member. You should provide a citation from SMOM of any case, at any time, of knighthood of a jazz musician. Thelisteninghand (talk) 17:50, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
In addition to the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, there are a number of other groups which call themselves "Knights of Malta". Some of these claim a connection with the Russian priory of the early 19th century. Others are Masonic organisations. When a source says that somebody is a "Knight of Malta", it does not necessarily mean that the individual belongs to the Sovereign Military Order of Malta. Noel S McFerran (talk) 00:17, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
Nomination of Julian Chadwick for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Julian Chadwick, a Knight of Justice, is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
The article will be discussed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Julian Chadwick until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.Noel S McFerran (talk) 13:23, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
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