Talk:Baked Alaska (livestreamer): Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 19:23, 13 October 2022 edit2a02:a451:96f5:1:49af:8a6a:dc18:3815 (talk) →Neo-Nazi: new sectionTags: Reverted Mobile edit Mobile web edit← Previous edit		Revision as of 19:23, 13 October 2022 edit undo2a02:a451:96f5:1:49af:8a6a:dc18:3815 (talk) →Racist: new sectionTags: Reverted Mobile edit Mobile web editNext edit →
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	Show whats its all about, how it really is ] (]) 19:23, 13 October 2022 (UTC)		Show whats its all about, how it really is ] (]) 19:23, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

			== Racist ==

			Because he is ] (]) 19:23, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Revision as of 19:23, 13 October 2022

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Neo-Nazi

Hello, I would like to discuss the term "neo-Nazi" that is attributed to Baked Alaska in the very first sentence of the article. Two sources are cited to justify that term, The A.V. Club and The Times of Israel respectively. The former source does not seem to be reliable for this claim, as according to the perennial sources page it is only considered "generally reliable for film, music, and TV reviews", and so is clearly beyond its area of expertise. A film review website, which explicitly labels itself as "an entertainment website", should not be cited to claim that someone is a "neo-Nazi".

The Times of Israel has a similar issue. It is not listed anywhere on the reliable source page, as it is still somewhat controversial from what I've seen in the noticeboard archives. However, it does look mostly reliable at least with regards to Israeli affairs, and so again it seems that this source is beyond its area of expertise in claiming that an American live-streamer is a "neo-Nazi". But even if this publication is well within its area of expertise, there are still discrepancies with their use of the term towards Baked Alaska. The cited article - dated January 17 2021 - describes Baked Alaska's arrest and does label him as a "neo-Nazi". In their latest article about him though - dated November 20 2021 - they decided to suddenly drop "neo-Nazi" in favor of "far-right media personality" while reporting on his alleged vandalism of a Hanukkah display. This use of "far-right media personality" falls in line with the current media consensus on Baked Alaska, which can be seen in reports from reputable publications such as ABC, AP, and Reuters about his recent assault and vandalism charges. In these reports he is universally described as a far-right media personality, and very clearly not as a "neo-Nazi".

With all of this in mind, I suggest that the instance of "neo-Nazi" be removed and replaced with the generally agreed upon "far-right media personality".

P.S. I'm a newer user, so please tell me if I've broken some etiquette. I made this suggestion in good faith and tried to be as objective as possible. Thank you. Sevner (talk) 12:29, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree. Saying that he is a far-right personality seems sufficient and accurate. While he has seemed content, on occasions, to associate himself with actual neo-nazis, to my knowledge he has never claimed to be one himself. My impression is that his ideology, while definitely far-right, is not precise and coherent enough to warrant that label. One may even say that calling him a neo-nazi is giving him too much credit. Psychloppos (talk) 20:42, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Agree wholeheartedly, I'd tried to make this change several times, explaining that AV Club wasn't sufficiently authoritative to make the claim per WP:BLP, but got brigaded every time. There was a ton of mainstream coverage of him too after Jan. 6 2021 and none of them dubbed him a Neo-Nazi. --notJackhorkheimer 16:07, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Not sure why this is removed when he is described as a neo-nazi in numerous reliable sources, not just the two mentioned above. E.G. The Independent (1), Raw Story (2), the Guardian (3), Sky News (4), etc.

Please reread my initial post and refer to the perennial sources page. The first source you referenced, The Independent, is only considered a reliable source for non-specialist information, and it's also noted that some editors have advised caution for their articles as well. Not only that, but the particular article you referenced is clearly outdated, as their most recent one about Baked Alaska completely leaves out the term 'neo-Nazi'. Your second source (Raw Story) is generally unreliable, your third source's article (The Guardian) no longer exists, and your fourth source (Sky News) does not appear on the reliable sources page. I have cited up-to-date articles from reputable sources like AP and Reuters, and they describe Baked Alaska not as 'neo-Nazi', but as a 'far-right media personality'. This current general media consensus is the reason why the term has been removed and replaced with 'far-right media personality'. Sevner (talk) 20:27, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

This is a tangent, but I think we can safely assume that Sky News would be regarded as a reliable (and somewhat authoritative) source, despite its association with Murdoch. It's the second leading purveyor of news in Britain, after the BBC. Something only goes to RSN if there's a reason to question its reliability, which is likely why it's never been brought up. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 20:40, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

That's a pretty fair correction. I agree that Sky News seems like a mostly reliable source, and I should have pointed out what the particular article itself said (that Baked Alaska is an "online personality" who happens to be "known for holding neo-Nazi and white supremacist views"), instead of just saying it's not on the RS page. However, it's not true that a source only goes to the RS page if there's been a reason to question its reliability. It's a page that reflects the community consensus on widely discussed sources. Just because a source doesn't show up on there doesn't mean it's universally accepted, that only applies to sources like universally verifiable academic journals. It's more likely that it just hasn't been discussed enough yet and formally put on the RS page. Sevner (talk) 22:26, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

There is really no discussion to be had here; numerous reliable sources call Baked a neo-nazi. I would also note that Sevner is a one-purpose account that has only made edits to this page. LongtimeLurkerNewEditor08 (talk) 10:18, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

I have tried to add a compromise version, mentioning the (completely uncontroversial) fact that he has been referred to as a neo-nazi in the press, rather than calling him one with Misplaced Pages's voice. By the way I have one point on which I want to correct Sevner - the "Times of Israel" Link actually contains a reprint of an Associated Press article in which Baked is called a neo-nazi. See - https://www.timesofisrael.com/neo-nazi-baked-alaska-arrested-over-us-capitol-riot/ LongtimeLurkerNewEditor08 (talk) 10:43, 17 February 2022 (UTC).

There is very clearly a discussion to be had here. I have cited the most up-to-date articles from ABC, AP, and Reuters to show that the current general media consensus on Baked Alaska is that he is not a "neo-Nazi", but a far-right media personality. You, on the other hand, seem to have gone out of your way to find any source that has accused him of being a 'neo-Nazi' - the first article you cited was from Raw Story, an infamous clickbait tabloid website. Your other two sources, The Independent and The Guardian, are somewhat contentious sources on the Reliable Sources list, with some editors advising caution and warning about their bias in politics. However, even if you grant both sources the benefit of the doubt, their most recent articles about Baked Alaska have left out the term "neo-Nazi" entirely. Here are The Independent's three most recent articles about him and The Guardian's three most recent articles . All of these articles were published after the ones you cited, and none of them label Baked Alaska a "neo-Nazi". You haven't directly addressed any of my previous concerns about the reliability of your sources, you've just discouraged discussion and appealed vaguely to "numerous reliable sources" instead of citing them.

Also, your "correction" about the Times of Israel link makes it seem like you just haven't read what I've written. I already acknowledged in my orginal post that in that particular article he was indeed labelled a "neo-Nazi" by the AP/TOI staff. However, the point was that their latest articles had the term "neo-Nazi" retracted and replaced with "far-right media personality". That was the point, that they called him a 'neo-Nazi' in an older article and have replaced it with "far-right media personality" in their newer ones, which shows that the current general media consensus has changed to describe Baked Alaska more accurately.

Please also stop making significant edits before discussing and justifying your claims. It should be noted that you have many warnings on your talk page about edit warring/personal commentary for several different pages. I have engaged in good faith, with proper citations and justifications, and am more than willing to discuss this more if you would do the same. Sevner (talk) 00:43, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Neo-Nazi

Show whats its all about, how it really is 2A02:A451:96F5:1:49AF:8A6A:DC18:3815 (talk) 19:23, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Racist

Because he is 2A02:A451:96F5:1:49AF:8A6A:DC18:3815 (talk) 19:23, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

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