Talk:Aseem Malhotra: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 11:22, 19 October 2022 editBon courage (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users66,169 edits →New source (2): r← Previous edit		Revision as of 17:08, 9 November 2022 edit undoNutez (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users600 edits →Excessive detail on controversies: new sectionTag: New topic Next edit →
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	:::I think it fits ] pretty closely - Flynn and the BMA were closely involved in the events. ] says that we should be very cautious about using primary sources in BLPs. A broader issue about this regardless of whether it is primary or not and why I asked whether anyone else covered this, is ]. It looks to me like there was some controversy within the BMA about the award and tweet but it doesn't seem as if anyone else took much notice. ] (]) 09:40, 19 October 2022 (UTC)		:::I think it fits ] pretty closely - Flynn and the BMA were closely involved in the events. ] says that we should be very cautious about using primary sources in BLPs. A broader issue about this regardless of whether it is primary or not and why I asked whether anyone else covered this, is ]. It looks to me like there was some controversy within the BMA about the award and tweet but it doesn't seem as if anyone else took much notice. ] (]) 09:40, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
	::::Ah, okay - I wasn't aware Flynn was involved in the events. Out of caution I've removed this though I feel what the BMA feels about a doctor's COVID views (which we air) is relevant to the article. Let's see what others think. ] (]) 11:22, 19 October 2022 (UTC)		::::Ah, okay - I wasn't aware Flynn was involved in the events. Out of caution I've removed this though I feel what the BMA feels about a doctor's COVID views (which we air) is relevant to the article. Let's see what others think. ] (]) 11:22, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

			== Excessive detail on controversies ==

			I firmly believe that the article, in its current shape, has way too much detail on the various controversies regarding cholesterol, statins, saturated fat etc. These are of course topics that Mr. Malhotra has opined on, but I don't think it's due to include entire paragraphs on what national health authorities recommend for human consumption in his biography. I do think we ought to describe the pushback Mr. Malhotra has received from various experts in context, but that ought to be more specific regarding the debate he has engaged in, rather than simply repeating what the general health guidelines recommend, which is already duly covered elsewhere in the Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 17:08, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

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Analysis of sources for lead article (Please maintain and do not archive)

Malhotra is a controversial character. I have analysed all the independent sources (not those written by the subject himself) in the following table so the lead paragraph can give a balanced reflection of what the sources say. As time goes on and there are new sources and new points to be made please add to the table. Viv Hamilton (talk) 19:03, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Source Type	Source	Year	Personal words	Ref to work
Positive Notability	ST5002016	2016	Cardiologist	Founding Action on Sugar High Sugar
	KF2015	2015	Cardiologist Anti-obesity expert Practicing NHS doctor Highly respected public health campaigner	Founding Action on Sugar Reducing sugar Sugar's role in T2D and obesity
	Sustain	2013	Cardiologist Uses media profile	Weaknesses of Responsibility Deal Choc filled vending machines in hospital Marketing of junk food to children Advocate of sugary drinks duty
	HSJ2013BME	2013	Interventional cardiologist specialist registrar Uses media profile "Yes. He challenges people"	Educate the public on health issues against big corporations’ profit making at the cost of increasing health risks to the general public, particularly children original research on the effects of sugar rich diets on obesity and heart morbidity/mortality highlighted unhealthy hospital meals calling for a ban on the sale of junk food in hospitals
	HSJ2014BME	2014	Honorary Consultant Cardiologist Member of the Academy of Royal Colleges Obesity Group "An upcoming star"	ignited debate over diagnosis: doctors’ treatment of simple cases that bring “no benefit to the patients” a culture of over-investigation” includes excessive use of antibiotics and imaging for non-sinister headaches catapulting the BMJ’s “too much medicine” campaign into the media
	EvStd2014Supersmart	2014	Media Savvy Consultant Science Director Action on Sugar	too much attention has been on saturated fat, while the dangers of sugar have been under-stated want to pressurise the Government to regulate the food industry to reduce the amount (of sugar) they’re spiking our food withs excess sugar consumption increases the risk of heart disease and type 2 diabetes even in those of normal weight
Critics Not all articles describe Malhotra in person Some articles are discussing very particular points	ButterNonsense	2018	Cardiologist dissident scientist	chlorestrol sceptic statin critic urges a low carb, high fat diet
	sbm	2020	British Consultant Cardiologist statin denialist	circular reference This article quotes from WP article Quotes from the WP article not included here
	ARS Technica	2017	Controversial UK Cardiologist	high profile on media and television advocate of high fat diets written scores of editorials

I don't understand this table, and separating sources between "Positive Notability" and "Critics" is bound to lead to POV violations. --Hipal (talk) 19:06, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Biographical Bias

Several paragraphs of the biographical and work history section read like they're written by the subject and are heavily biased. They are not neutral at all and I suggest rewriting to remove much of the glorified fluff. 82.8.55.103 (talk) 01:32, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Please can you be more specific. Other than the quote about his motivation, as far as I can see, the second and third paragraphs are sourced and referenced from third party sites. Viv Hamilton (talk)

I have added some quotes from the Sarah Boseley article "Butter Nonsense". This section is dealing with Malhotra as a person and his career - the article already has a lot of criticism of his statements under the specific issues in the next section of the article. The issue of balance is that overall organisations tend to give positive recognition of people but there are very few that give negative ones (ignoble and Darwin being some exceptions). So on average for a biography it's not unexpected that the balance of what the Reliable Sources say is positive. There is plenty of criticism of Malhotra out there but most of it is in self-published articles so cannot be used here (there is also plenty of praise for him too in self-published material, which is equally not included in the article). Viv Hamilton (talk) 16:49, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

This article looks like a government propaganda piece

The article goes on and on about NHS guidance, which we all know leads to an obese population, same for many western countries. No matter this article's editors' opinions about the diet, the article should restrict itself to a couple of paragraphs on the book, and a couple of paragraphs and published criticisms. The rest is just extra fluff.--Tallard (talk) 07:04, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Or a public relations piece. The lede is a mess. --Hipal (talk) 16:34, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

I've posted to WP:FTN, hoping for some help. --Hipal (talk) 16:52, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes, placing counter-arguments in an article, especially a BLP, is a violation of WP:SYN. 108.18.156.124 (talk) 21:30, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

New source

Gorski DH (3 October 2022). "'I know you are, but what am I?' Dr. Asseem Malhotra rails against COVID-19 'misinformation'". Science-Based Medicine.

Seems like a lot to take in ... Bon courage (talk) 15:26, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Interesting source. Aseem Malhotra was also recently on the GB News channel and was supportive of the carnivore diet, , he says towards the end that it can "cure" people (he cites Jordan Peterson's daughter). Completely irresponsible. Psychologist Guy (talk) 16:50, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

New source (2)

Flynn A (September 2022). "Enquiry into concerns raised by members at ARM 2022" (PDF) ('Lessons learned' review). British Medical Association.

In which the BMA investigate the fallout of Malhotra falsely claiming to have received an award from the BMA chair, and note that he "holds views that are contrary to BMA policy, particularly regarding vaccination for prevention of SARS-CoV-2". Bon courage (talk) 14:17, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

@Bon courage: I think we need to be careful using a primary source such as this - do you know if this was picked up by any news organisations? From a quick search I couldn't find anything. SmartSE (talk) 09:24, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Not sure. But I'm also not sure it's a primary source – isn't the author/investigator (Flynn) at a remove from the evidence/people involved in the incident? And in any case a BMA publication is surely reliable for its own view wrt Malhotra. Is there anything here you see as contentious? Bon courage (talk) 09:30, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

I think it fits WP:PRIMARY pretty closely - Flynn and the BMA were closely involved in the events. WP:BLPPRIMARY says that we should be very cautious about using primary sources in BLPs. A broader issue about this regardless of whether it is primary or not and why I asked whether anyone else covered this, is WP:WEIGHT. It looks to me like there was some controversy within the BMA about the award and tweet but it doesn't seem as if anyone else took much notice. SmartSE (talk) 09:40, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Ah, okay - I wasn't aware Flynn was involved in the events. Out of caution I've removed this though I feel what the BMA feels about a doctor's COVID views (which we air) is relevant to the article. Let's see what others think. Bon courage (talk) 11:22, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Excessive detail on controversies

I firmly believe that the article, in its current shape, has way too much detail on the various controversies regarding cholesterol, statins, saturated fat etc. These are of course topics that Mr. Malhotra has opined on, but I don't think it's due to include entire paragraphs on what national health authorities recommend for human consumption in his biography. I do think we ought to describe the pushback Mr. Malhotra has received from various experts in context, but that ought to be more specific regarding the debate he has engaged in, rather than simply repeating what the general health guidelines recommend, which is already duly covered elsewhere in the Misplaced Pages. Nutez (talk) 17:08, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

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