Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 19:00, 2 March 2007

This topic contains controversial issues, some of which have reached a consensus for approach and neutrality, and some of which may be disputed. Before making any potentially controversial changes to the article, please carefully read the discussion-page dialogue to see if the issue has been raised before, and ensure that your edit meets all of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. Please also ensure you use an accurate and concise edit summary.

This page is not a forum for general discussion about Transnistria. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Transnistria at the Reference desk.

Archives
/archive 1 /archive 2 /archive 3 /archive 4 /archive 5 /archive 6 /archive 7 /archive 8 /archive 9 /archive 10 /archive 11 /archive 12 /archive 13

New Changes

can somebody explain why is alaexis keep undo my posting on the mainpage? if there is no link about investigative stories about Transnistria, why was my post deleted? I understand that a russian doesen't want critical posts about transdniester but this wkipedia section is for international use - is not even the russian version of wikipedia.

You should've noted that not only I have reverted your contributions. They are highly pov imo, besides in wikipedia you don't just put links in the article and say that all the interesting info is there. Alaexis 19:27, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

define "pov imo" . they are journalistic articles. so, please be so kind and tell me where to post links to an interesting serie of investigative stories on transdnniester. done on the field by journalists living in the area. could you give me similar examples to those articles, russian boy? or could you give me an example of a similar investigation into transdniester?

It isnt nice to call someone "Russian boy", the editor has a name, you can use that if you want to address him directly, but he is right, you should read about wiki-pedias rules for links, they are here: WP:EL Pernambuco 20:51, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Please refrain from personal attacks in future. If these links deserve to be put in the article (which I doubt) they should go to the 'External Links: Romanian Sources' section. Regards. Alaexis 21:02, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Mark Almond on Weapons

In his article via link 54 it says "...Despite admitting that Iraqi WMD in 2003 were an invention of febrile conspiracy theorists in the US government and their willing propagandists,". Who admitted to this, I don't recall that happening and it doesn't say in the article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jonathanpops (talk • contribs) 11:17, 26 February 2007 (UTC).

Recognition

I believe that if a sovereign country exists and functions independantly and poseses all the modern virtues of a state,it is not right to justsay that such a country does not exist.In the time before the midle ages,a country would be proclaimed and be sovereign and it would not need any "recognition" by another country,so Transnistria is in fact a sovereign,independant nation, only not recognised because of politics. I also belive that if a region or a people of a region wish to become independant,then independance is a fundamental right of their and no one can surpress this in any way. New Babylon 17:12, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

In the time before the middle ages the notion of sovereignty did not exist. Sovereignty, as it exists today, is a modern concept. Dpotop 13:37, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Transnistria is not sovereign. The PMR has de facto control. That's what it is. There is no such thing as "de facto sovereign." And please explain to me how the PMR is an expression of the people of the region when the authorities record who voted and for whom and the authority in place is supported by the presence of Russian troops. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 01:26, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, in the middle ages they used to burn people for being witches and claim countries by going to live there and building castles and telling everyone else to get lost... things have moved on a bit since then, in most parts of the world at least. I do agree though that if a country and its people want to be independent, and are running their system independently, then what other countries think shouldn't really matter too much. The only thing is that lots of people have doubts about the people controlling Transnistria, their motives, and how many people are just toeing the line for fear of gaining difavour from their superiors, govererners and police etc. In out modern world of mass media, air travel and the Global Community a lot of the more developed countries like to care (some may say, stick their noses in) about the affairs of other, lesser developed countries. Jonathanpops 09:24, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

BTW: nobody has doubts about who's ruling Transnistria. It's Russia. But Russia is a great country, and few governments dare criticize it on such a minor subject as Transnistria. Dpotop 13:39, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

As long as Russian troops continue their presence, nothing in Transnistria can be objectively represented as the will of the people. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 01:20, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Come on, get real. There is a multilateral peacekeeping force. It is not just Russian. Troops are also supplied by Moldova, Transnistria and Ukraine. And the OSCE participates in the management of this peacekeeping force. If Moldova hadn't attacked with MIGs, carpet bombing residential neighborhoods, none of this would have been necessary and the international troops would most likely have left a long time ago. - Mauco 15:51, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Vecrumba's probably referring to the 14th army and Socor's articles. I understand that the MiGs were used only about once or twice with minimal results (bombs missed and fell into the Dniester). --Illythr 18:01, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Intro change

I think I haven't added anything new with this changes. Does anyone disagree that Transnistria is a republic? If it's not DFI it must be de-facto part of some other country and it has to be proven. Alaexis 05:14, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

What was the change? Maybe I missed it or someone else reverted you? To answer your question: Transnistria is de-facto like an independent republic but it is part of Moldova in the eyes of the international system. It is not clear from the introduction but that is actually the current situation. Ştefan44 12:01, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I was indeed reverted but I'm going to change it back in a few minutes. The only change is 'breakaway territory'->'de-facto independent republic'. The words 'within the internationally recognized legal boundaries of the Republic of Moldova in Eastern Europe' remain and make it clear for anyone that Transnistria is considered part of Moldova by other countries and international organisations. The wording proposed by me is kind of unofficial standard on wikipedia - it has been adopted for almost all other unrecognised states. Alaexis 18:15, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

"de-facto independent republic" is a POV how about "under de-facto military occupation". Pleace read WP:NPOV EvilAlex 11:55, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that "de-facto independent republic" is POV. Look at the de-facto article. It's written there that:

A de facto government is one that maintains itself by a display of force against the will of the rightful legal government and is successful, at least temporarily, in overturning the institutions of the rightful legal government by setting up its own in lieu thereof.

ps. This definition is taken from the Black’s Law Dictionary 4th Edition (1951) page 504. Alaexis 12:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

There is a disagreement whether Transnistrai is an independent republic. Transnistria curently is under de-facto military control of Russian 14-th army. Vast majority of transnistrian government officials are not native born transnistrians. Smirnov itself was born in Kamchatka. If you insist on including your POV in the main article then everyone should be able to include their opinion too. EvilAlex 14:40, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Do you have statistics about the birthplaces of Transnistrian officials? Yevgeni Shevchuk, the speaker, was born in Rybnitsa, for example. Anyway the fact that Igor Smirnov was born in Kamchatka does not prove that Transnistria is ruled by Russia.Alaexis 15:11, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I've found these statistics in the Parliament of Transnistria article. It's a bit weird but it's not a direct proof of total Russian control over Transnistria. After all only 9 of 43 mps were born in Russia. Most of those who were born outside of Transnistria moved there dozens of years before the war as a result of the industrialisation of Transnistria. Some were born in the areas of Ukraine adjacent to Moldova (like Chernovtsy or western Odessa region) so it's no wonder they came to Transnistria. Alaexis 15:13, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

who cares if you are Russian who was born in Eastern occupied Germany or in Kazakhstan and then migrated to Transnistria. What i am saying is that i seriously dough that Transnistria is a Independent Republic. When natives will be represented in the government only the i will belive. Only 15%+ of government officials where born in Transnistria. All others are emigrants, the nation have been ruled by forefingers. Look at Smirnov and sons, litskai... EvilAlex 17:25, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

no, it is more than 15%. Even so, would you say that the governor of California is a representative of an occupying force because he was born in Europe, and not in the USA? Get real. These people were elected. If Moldova won't recognize the election, that is Moldova's problem. They are recognized by the people who live there, and that is what matters. Anyone is free to vote for whom they want. - Mauco 17:48, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

There is a huge difference between California and Transnistria: In California people are free to choose their leaders. In Transnistrian people are ruled by dictator for 15 years now. 172.207.17.95 18:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Besides, lots of these folks came to Transnistria when they were kids. It strains credibility to think that Moscow would send two-year olds to Tiraspol twenty years in advance of a planned takeover, in order to maintain control of Moldova. Oops, I take that back: Historically, Transnistria was never part of Moldova. But it was populated by South Slavs, and it part of Kievan Rus, more than a thousand years ago. And it has been a formal part of the Russian empire since 1792. Compare this to Moldova: A traditional part of Romania. The Dniester river was the border. - Mauco 15:47, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

As for the definition of de facto, it fits. The question now is: Can anyone document how Transnistria is NOT a de facto independent republic within the internationally recognized borders of Moldova? - Mauco 15:47, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Simple: Government officials does not represent the nativ population. that is the formula for occupation. EvilAlex 17:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

No. They are recognized by the population as valid, legal representatives of the will of the people. If you do not want to agree that Transnistria is a de facto independent republic within the internationally recognized borders of Moldova, then you must state how this is not so. Document with reputable sources, please. - Mauco 17:48, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I support the intro change, but it wouldve been better if Mauco and Vecrumba could tell is they agree too, well Mauco said yes, what does Vecrumbas say? the reason I ask is because these two made the original compromise, but of course I can see that the compromise already has been forgotten, because the compromise between them did never include the word 'breakaway' and it also had the word 'officially', and that word is left now, so maybe it doesnt matter and we just need to forget about the compromise and instead put in the article what is the best and most accurate description. Like I said, I support the intro change, it is the same way all the other unrecognized countries have it in the articles Pernambuco 17:34, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the original compromise proposal broke down a long time ago and Vecrumba never did much to defend it. Go ahead and use the factually accurate Aalexis version instead. - Mauco 17:48, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

EvilAlex vandalism? / POV

Did anyone see what EvilAlex did today, he showed up and undid a whole month of work, and it is something like 25 reverts on the page, does anyone mind if I restore the page to the normal version? This is similar to the bonaparte-person, why can these people not propose their changes and discuss them first???? Pernambuco 17:34, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Someone else apparently already restored to the pre-EvilAlex version, but if EvilAlex insists, just go ahead and restore the page again. Meanwhile, he will be blocked for 3RR. He was warned (twice) but decided to ignore it. He never discussed any of his changes here, or sought consensus in any way, shape or form. - Mauco 17:52, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

While I'm not exactly a great fan of Alex' work, a few of his (reverted) changes were actually valid, if made in a rather aggressive way. For example, did some EU countries really send humanitarian aid to Transnistria? And if yes, then what countries? I am only aware of the aid that came from Russia. --Illythr 18:14, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

yes i agree but in that case why dont he ask about it, for instance check with the person who introduced it (not me), or put a fact-tagging request, and then if there is no source for it, delete it later as unsourced Pernambuco 19:00, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages controversial topics
• Misplaced Pages pages with to-do lists