Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 16:29, 18 March 2005

Please add new comments at the bottom of the page

• Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/archive1, Aug 21-Nov 29
• Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/archive2, Dec 17-Jan 11
• Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/archive3, Jan 11-19

Minority views

From Jimbo Wales, September 2003, on the mailing list:

• If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;
• If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;
• If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Misplaced Pages (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it's true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not.

SlimVirgin 10:58, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)

It would seem that most of Berlet's theories would belong in the third category. --HK 20:45, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The condemnation of Lyndon LaRouche and his followers is nearly universal and worldwide in terms of material published in commonly accepted reference texts. The proponents of LaRouche are a tiny group that live in a bubble of admiration. I started out here merely asking that the text be reduced to 50% self-published claims by LaRouchites and 50% material from commonly accepted reference texts (all critical of LaRouche). This apparently is not OK with HK, who insists on inserting material with no independent verification. I think it is clear that HK is not capable of participating in this process in a way that is even remotely connected to the goals of Misplaced Pages. He has already repeatedy violated the strictures placed on him by the Arb. committee. He continues to enagage in personal attacks. He continues to claim that I cook quotes when it has been shown to the satisfaction of anyone but a LaRouche fanatic that the quotes are accurate and my interpretation of them is fair. Why is this being tolerated?

Will: In an entry on the Holocaust, would you find it acceptable if the Holocaust Deniers were allowed 50% of the text space to post their views? Would it be OK to allow them to constantly rewrite the text so that their claims ended every section, thus giving those views more weight? I think not.

Let's get back to editing. Let's be fair to the LaRouchites, but let's be editors of a serious encylopedia.

In the meantime--once again--I ask that HK and Weed and the other pro-LaRouche editors stop editing other LaRouche-related pages and just work on this page. I am willing to just work on this page. What's the problem with that? Let's finish the work on the text on AIDS and Gay people. Here is a proposed format

Majority view from material published in commonly accepted reference texts.

Quote from critic.

Quote from LaRouchites.

Summary

Then we move on to another section, until the article is edited. --Cberlet 12:58, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Slim: I don't know how to create a Temp page, can you create one for me to edit and tell me how to do it?--Cberlet 13:39, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You can have a Temp page here or in your own user space. If the former, go to the search box on the left hand side. Type in (you can choose the words after the slash) Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Cberlet and press "go". A page will come up with a link saying that page doesn't exist - click here to create it (or words to that effect). Simply click on that link, and start writing on the blank page. Alternatively (and this is what most people do for personal drafts), create a page in your own user space by typing User:Cberlet/LaRouche draft, click on go, same procedure. Again, you can choose the words after the slash. Hope that helps. SlimVirgin 23:20, Jan 20, 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Cberlet's proposed format above. Please let's concentrate on one page at a time. As this one is protected, we must edit this one, or ask for unprotection, because we're currently abusing the protection process. We should aim to make this article the sort of thing you'd expect to read in the Encyclopedia Britannica, if they had enough space (by which I don't mean it should be so long no one will read it). SlimVirgin 23:25, Jan 20, 2005 (UTC)

Editing by Sections

Let's start with this section:

Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Gays & AIDS

Here are the remaining sections to edit after we agree to the above section:

Republicanism v. Fascism

Racism or Higher Culture?

The Brainwashing Incident

Let's edit them in order

We can do this!--Cberlet 03:56, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Chip, it's a good idea. What I'd suggest is to get a structure going first, and a rough estimate of desired length. Suggestion: Intro, Marxist period; Change of views, Conspiracy theories (issues like John Train Salon included here), Allegations of brainwashing, Gays and AIDS, Attitude toward Jews (including here the views about the British establishment and "international Jewry"), Attitude toward women; The LaRouche movement around the world (say something about the Schiller Institute and LYM, methods of recruitment, how many followers, how is movement financed). Then we can have LaRouche rebuttal sections, or we can intersperse LaRouche position throughout the text. I'd prefer the latter, so long as it doesn't lead to claim, counter-claim, and counter-counter etc. Suggest your own section headings if you want because you're the expert. I was thinking structure would be a good thing to pin down so we can pace ourselves in terms of word length, as we tackle each subject. SlimVirgin 04:22, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)

Berlet's theories

If you think that I am going to accept the replacement of this article with a knock-off of Chip Berlet's web site, you are dreaming. I indicated that I would accept Willmcw's (relatively) neutral re-write of the AIDS section. It is a basis for discussion. A total re-write by Berlet is out of the question. --HK 15:54, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It's not just the gay/AIDS section that needs attention. Material that should be discussed has been left out: for example, the brainwashing allegations against the movement; the period when LaRouche thought the CIA had brainwashed the membership; his belief that people want to assassinate him; how the membership is recruited; how it finances itself. You've prevented these issues from being examined in Schiller Institute, LaRouche Youth Movement, and the National Caucus of Labor Committees, so they can only go here or in Lyndon LaRouche. SlimVirgin 17:05, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)

I haven't "prevented them from being discussed" anywhere, but I agree that this is the appropriate location for such a discussion, except for how the movement finances itself, which is already discussed in Lyndon LaRouche. If you want to add more material there, I have no objection, provided that it comes from a reputable source. Meanwhile, I propose that we agree to use Will's AIDS section, and unprotect. --HK 01:35, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This was the version that Will wrote and I wrote suggestions on. Will, Cberlet and I then reached an agreement, which was we'd have what Will wanted of the AIDS quote, and what I wanted of the apparent LaRouche change-of-heart. Then you objected. If we're going to use any of the gay drafts as a basis, it should be this one; though I believe Cberlet may have in mind writing another. SlimVirgin 01:50, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)

Stop Complaining and start discussing this draft

Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Gays & AIDS I propose we post it and move on to editing other sections. --Cberlet 02:40, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'm fine with that version. SlimVirgin 02:42, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)

Slim: Let's go with it. As for the major re-edit, I agree we need a structure, but let's not worry about length at first. If we can agree on content that is too long, it will be easier to reduce the length later. Do you have a suggested outline?--Cberlet 04:07, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I was thinking of this (feel free to change the names of the headers: I mean them here only as areas):

• Biographical intro
• Early life
• Marxist period
• Change of views (when, why, in what form, personal reasons for change)
• The brainwashing incident
• Conspiracy theories
• Allegations of brainwashing of recruits
• Gays and AIDS (agreed)
• Attitude toward Jews (the views about the British establishment and "international Jewry", allegations of Holocaust denial),
• Attitude toward women (if there's enough to warrant a section)
• The LaRouche movement in the U.S. and around the world (National Causus of Labor Committees; the Schiller Institute; LYM; how many members; methods of recruitment, how is movement financed)
• LaRouche rebuttal sections (or we can intersperse LaRouche position throughout the text. I'd prefer the latter, though it makes it harder to write)

SlimVirgin 04:21, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)

Some of this seems to replicate material on the Lyndon LaRouche page, perhaps some of it can be referenced on that page and the detials moved here?--Cberlet 04:43, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Sure, I'll go along with any structure you suggest that gets us moving. If you think some of these issues are best on Lyndon LaRouche, we could leave them there and reference them here, or vice versa. The biographical intro and early life is repetitive and so can mostly refer readers to Lyndon LaRouche, except insofar as you believe his early personal circumstances affected his political views, assuming enough is known about the former. Or perhaps it's more appropriate to say here what the political views are, and not to expound on how they came to be, leaving that analysis to Lyndon LaRouche. You might think the personal circumstances that surrounded his move away from Marxism should be left on Lyndon LaRouche too. I'll go along with your preference. (For my own part, I wouldn't have separated these pages in the first place, because the man IS the politics, but I'm not suggesting a merger.) SlimVirgin 12:22, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)

Evidence of "Cooked Quotes"

The issue of "cooked quotes" is essential to the question of whether Berlet's web site should be considered a reputable source. I have assembled the evidence on a special page: Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Evidence of "cooked quotes". I have edited for clarity some material contributed by Herschel. Weed Harper 07:23, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Weed, could you say which parts you have edited for clarity, please? SlimVirgin 09:05, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)

I shortened Herschels "Anatomy of a cut and paste job", leaving out comments that I thought were unnecessary, and I put in the italic and bold formatting. Weed Harper 21:16, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Next Steps

What about making temporary copies of both pages, and then moving blocks of text around until it looks reasonable, we reduce duplication, and only the most important and salient material is on the Lyndon LaRouche page? Can you make the Temp pages? Last time I made a mess of things.--Cberlet 03:52, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I've made Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/sandbox and Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/sandbox. Don't worry about having made a mistake. I just did the exact same thing!  :-) SlimVirgin 06:10, Jan 23, 2005 (UTC)

OK: Here are the first "sandbox" drafts of three pages, and their associated links:

Lyndon LaRouche

Talk:Lyndon LaRouche

Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/sandbox

Political views of Lyndon LaRouche

Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche

Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/sandbox

United States v. LaRouche

Talk:United States v. LaRouche

Talk:United States v. LaRouche/sandbox

There are still some (((missing paragraphs))).--Cberlet 16:23, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

If you try to replace a Misplaced Pages article with a Chip Berlet article, rest assured it will be reverted. --64.30.208.48 18:50, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Anonymous threats. How endearing. Collect them all...--Cberlet 23:45, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

That IP address is one that the Herschel/Weed Harper account uses. SlimVirgin 03:11, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)

A proposal concerning the issue of Chip Berlet and original research

Chip Berlet AKA User:Cberlet has been systematically loading both Lyndon LaRouche and Political views of Lyndon LaRouche with quotes from articles that he has written. Between quotes from Chip and quotes from his siamese twin Dennis King, the articles resemble more and more an essay promoting their shared, idiosyncratic theories. The Slim 'n' Chip team has often attempted to justify CBerlet's edits by claiming that Berlet's material has appeared in "mainstream" publications.

Fine, then. As I indicate to Will above, I will not remove any quotes from Chip that have appeared in "mainstream", read "mass circulation" publications. That would include the publications Will asked about as examples: Time, the Washington Times, Washington Post, or New York Times. It would not include some publications that have served as a venue for the King/Berlet theories, such as High Times. It emphatically would not include leftist conspiracy-theory blog sites that are cloned from PRA.

In this way, the mass-circulation press can serve as sort of a "filter" to determine which of the King/Berlet theories are "mainstream", and which are esoteric, arcane, idiosyncratic, and generally unacceptable in Misplaced Pages under the Misplaced Pages:No original research guidelines. --HK 16:42, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This is not what the NPOV page describes as the standard criteria.--Cberlet 18:06, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

What is at issue is not the NPOV policy, but the Misplaced Pages:No original research policy. --HK 02:36, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

If you do your homework, you will see that it is not considered original research for the purposes of Misplaced Pages if it has been published by a reputable and reliable publication or organization, even if I, as the author, post it--as long as I post it in the third person..--Cberlet 03:08, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Chip Berlet and Political Research Associates are regarded as experts in their field by other professional researchers and journalists. He is allowed to quote himself from his own publications, and that includes reports published by PRA, so long as (a) he quotes himself in the third person; and (b) he does not self-promote in an unnecessary or irrelevant way. Also, cut out the remarks about him being King's Siamese twin. Most intelligent people share these views about LaRouche, not just Berlet and King. SlimVirgin 03:11, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)

Slim, your POV with regard to LaRouche is no mystery. Chip, it is the reputability and reliability of your organization that is being disputed. If you can find yourself quoted in a mass-circulation publication there will be no dispute. --HK 03:16, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Sandbox

There is another version of this article, Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/sandbox, that some editors have been working on. I am going to hide the comments and post it here. Substantial material has been moved between the Lyndon LaRouche bio and that version, in order to make a more logical division between the topics. The sandbox version is a bit rough in places, but I'm sure we can smooth it out. Cheers, -Willmcw 01:44, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

How disgusting

I see that Misplaced Pages has given up on any pretense of objectivity, and become just another propaganda sewer. --Caroline 16:29, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)