Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:04, 4 March 2007

Beginning of Polish State

(Due to Lysy's removal shown here): 'This boundary is basically the same as the 10th–14th century Polish-German border.'

This map depicts Poland (in the center) at its foundation time by Dago/Dagr, later called Mieszko I. Polish territory, including previously Bohemian/Czech ruled parts) are shown in white and surrounding different countries in darker color. Poland under Bolsma/Bolsleib (later called Boleslaw I, conquered a number of other territories, which were subsequentially lost again. The size and shape of the actual later called Polish land of the 900's compares to the 1815 Duchy of Warsaw.

I would like to remind every one that the map given is very inaccurate and over 100 years old.

-- Hrödberäht (gespräch) 01:03, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Political-Historical reasoning from Silesia talk page

Silesia as a part of Poland

I'm afraid you are misinformed about history of Silesia. Poland emerged as a state in years 950-1000, when the first Polish monarchs Mieszko I and Boleslaus I the Brave had united a couple of Polish tribes (Polanes, Mazovians, Pomeranians, Vistulans, Opolians and Silesians) into one political body. This fact was acknowledged by the Pope and by the Roman Emperor, 2 most important political authorities of this time, by the creation of Polish church province (Gniezno and Poznan in Greater Poland, Wroclaw in Silesia, Cracow in Little Poland, and Kolobrzeg in Pomerania)

Except for a short period of Bohemian rule in 1039-1050, the status of Silesia as part of Poland was not questioned for several centuries (until 14th century). In year 1138 Polish duke has created a 'federal' or 'feudal' Polish state consiting of several provinces (Silesia among them). Provinces of Poland were to be ruled by the descendants of his 4(5) sons, but one of the duke (the oldest one) were to hold Cracow and to be the overlord or high-duke of all Poland, responsible for foreign, military and other national affairs. This was the preparation for a royal coronation. Again this 'constitution' was confirmed by the Emperor and the Pope. In the following years the dukes quarreled who should be the grand duke, but the constitution of Poland was not questioned.

Silesia, one of the provinces of Poland, was ruled by the descendands of Wladyslaw II, the oldest son of Boleslaw III. Because the Silesian dukes were the oldest branch of the Piast dynasty, they considered themselves to be destined to be the overlords of all Poland. In 12-th-13th centuries Silesia became the strongest province of Poland (politically and economically) and this period is called the Monarchy of Silesian Henrys (Henry I, Henry II, Henry III, Henry IV). Preparations for the royal coronation were broken by the Tartar invasion in 1241, and Henry IV almost achieved Polish throne before his death in 1290. Royal City of Cracow was inherited by Przemysl II of Poznan and he succeded to achieve Polish royal crown in 1295, there is no doubt that this royal coronation was prepared politically by the Silesian dukes, who considered themselvs dukes of Poland.

After King Przemysl II death in 1296, the royal ambitions were inherited by his nephews, Ladislaus II the Short of Cuiavia and Henry II of Glogow (in Silesia), but also by the Venceslas II of Bohemia, who took control of Cracow, married Przemysl's daughter and was crowned King of Bohemia and Poland 1300. For the next 50 years or so there were 2 competing Polish kings in Prague and Cracow fighting each other and declaring his oponents decisions to be illegal. This dispute was resolved by a compromise. King of Cracow resigned his rights to most of Silesia, and the king of Prague resigned his rights to the 'Polish' title.

But still the Bohemian chancellery, Silesian cities, the chronicles authors in their documents had no doubt the the Silesian duchies and cities belong to the Kingdom of Poland (Regnum Poloniae). In 14th-15th centuries students from Silesia at the German universities were assigned to the Polish nation academic coporations.The Silesian dukes considered themselves the dukes of Poland, and they rules their duchies until they died out in 1675. They called themselves The Piasts from the dynasty legendary founder, and the Piast term itself was invented in Silesia in 16th century. Silesian eclessiatical province of Wroclaw belonged to the Polish archbishopric in Gniezno up to the 18th century, although there were serious attempts to transfer it to the archbishopric of Prague.

When time passed the real political belonging of Silesia to the Kingdom of Bohemia was prevailing over the legal belonging of Silesia to the Kingdom of Poland. Since there was a significant difference between the legal boundaries of Poland, and the real boundaries of territories controlled by the Polish kings, the jurists had developed a legal definition of the difference between two legal bodies.

• the Kingdom of Poland - means the territory of all the lands that belonged to the Polish kingdom, when it was first established.
• Crown of the Kingdom of Poland - means the territories that are actually controlled by the the Polish king.

According to this legal definitions Silesia and Pomerania belonged to the Kingdom of Poland, and not belonged to the Polish Crown. On the other hand Red Ruthenia belonged to the Crown, and did not belonged to the Kingdom. The medieval documents show that these terms were used frequently and had significant legal meaning. For example a couple of provincial dukes sweared their oaths to Polish the King, the Kingdom, and Crown of the Kingdom.

The legal status of Silesia was that the province belonged to the Kingdom of Poland, and at the same time it belonged to (was controlled by) the Crown of St. Venceslas (or Bohemian Crown). Poland was an electoral monarchy probably since 1177 and certailny after Polish-Lithuanian Union in 1386. All Polish royal pretenders between 1370 and 1772 could attain the Polish throne on the sole condition that he will sign a document guaranting nobility priviledges, integrity of Polish Kingdom and promise to do everything to get back the lost lands on his own cost.

The 16th century Polish historian Jan Dlugosz (Dlugosius, Longinus) author of the multi-volume Chronicles of the Polish Kingdom, comenting the end of the 13th-year war (1554-66) wrote that he is very happy that Gdansk Pomerania and Prussia had returned to Poland, but he would be even more happy if Poland could re-claim other lost lands: Silesia, lubusz land and Slupsk/Szczecin-Pomerania. His cronicles were the main source of historical and political thinking in Poland in 16th-18th century and this means that the legal rights of Poland to Silesia were never forgotten.

In the 18th century Poland became a weak country and these rights could not be executed. In the partitions of Poland (1772-1795) even the Polish state ceased to exist, but the Polish political nation and Polish Kingdom were not liquidated. The Kingdom was always considered to be a sacred thing - it continues to exist even if there is no King. Existence of the Polish political nation was proved by its amibiton to return to the political map of Europe, the repeating Polish uprisings, and peaceful national activities.

These political Polish dreams came true when Poland regained its independence in 1918 and regained the lost territories in 1945.

From legal point of view, Silesia was part of Poland for all the time since the foundation of Poland in 1000, and it doesn't matter if the province was actually in hands the Polish monarchs or temporarily controlled by other political bodies. The Polish monarchs had invited many guests from other countries to settle in Poland to find a better life. They and their decendants were guaranteed significant political and economic freedoms and rights. But they and their decendants also had a political obligation - to be loyal to the Polish dukes and kings. Most of them were loyal. We are very sorry we had to expel from Poland those who were not loyal.

CC, 20:10, 1 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Is this a joke?

"We are very sorry we had to expell". 

The people of Breslau/Wroclaw and Stettin did not have to be loyal to Poland because they were living in Germany.

The US is taken over for 200+ years by Mexico. Now Americans are no longer obligated to be loyal to the US because it doesn't currently exist or exercise political control over the region...that's basically what you're saying about Silesia. Historically, the province was built by Poles, so even if controlled by Germany, it is meaningless and void to say that Germans developed the region. Absolutely not. That's like saying Lithuanians developed Vilnius and Ukrainians developed Lviv. --Erikson

Casimir III. of Poland renounced to Silesia forever

In 1337 (1355) the Polish kingdom under king Casimir III. renounced forever to Silesia in the treaty of Trenčin (now Slovakia). In this time Silesia came to be part of the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation during the whole time of its existence. So, from midst of 14th century until 1945 when Poland occupied Silesia etc unlawfully (the Allies had put this former German territories just under Polish administration), i.e. around 700 years Silesia didn´t belong to Poland. And a southern part of Silesia which in German is called "Grafschaft Glatz" hadn´t ever belonged to the Polish Kindom etc. Well, maybe Poland couldn´t get enough.

--Wikiferdi 13:35, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Stabilisation of the Western Territories

Removed entire text to talk. Full of inaccuracies and extremely NPOV: The Soviet installed Polish government of 1945/47 started referring to the Eastern German land east of the Oder-Neisse line, under Soviet occupation since 1945, as Poland's Western Territories, also as Regained Territories.

Since 1920/21 parts of Germany were 'given' to Poland, then known as Polish Corridor. Poland by 1922 war conquest also added parts of Ukraine in the east and had one third none- Polish inhabitants. Poland went on a rigorous State- and Polish Catholic-Church-supported campagne to rid the 'New Poland' of the native populations, which had now become minorities in their own homeland situated in the New Poland.

Primate Cardinal August Hlond, the highest authority in the Catholic church of Poland, formulated the how to 'rid Poland of minorities' policy with his letter of 1935 and his recorded exclamations.

In summer 1939 a number of (now ethnic) Germans including the Protestant pastors from the Polish Corridor area were collected and sent on a death march from town to town. This event is known as the Bromberg Bloody Sunday.

The long-time-in-planning Soviet take-over took place in and after 1945 and the Soviet Union and Soviet-installed government of Poland took all Eastern-Germany, east of the Oder-Neisse line, under military occupation. The Polish clergy, while some opposed the Soviet Union as well, did however aid the Soviet take-over by expelling the German priests and pastors along with the German native population of Eastern Germany (east of the Oder-Neisse line). Poland claims this part of Germany as Poland's Western Territories or as Regained Territories.

All Protestant churches were closed. Officially there were no Protestants, nore Germans in the Soviet-backed Poland of 1945.

In 1985 the Sczeczin bishop Jan Galecki praised the Catholic clergy of Poland for the roll they played in the establishment of Stabilisation of the Western Territories.

This roll of getting rid of minoritieswas defined by the highest ranking church official of Poland Primate Cardinal August Hlond and adhered to over many years. It was also formulated as "correct" by British Prime Minister Winston Churchill, backer of the Polish government.

The Serbian rulers took the Soviet Union, Polish and Czech and Churchill example as their guide in their plan and execution of "how to effectively rid a country of minorities".

It greatly surprised the Serbs, that this same policy is now called 'Ethnic Cleansing".

Polish Primate Cardinal August Hlond, along with many others, was a perpetrator of Polish church and state-sanctioned policies of "how to rid Poland of minorities from lands conquered by Poland and Soviet Union". There are attempts now to legally bestowe sainthood on Hlond.

In my opinion this article need a major rewrite. It should clarify why Poland wanted to recover these territories, the historical background, the positions of Polish Government in Exile and the Polish Communist Government, the diffrences betwen the Allies, in various period of time, and the final reslosion of the conflict. cc, 05:58, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The aqcuisition of the Western Territories have nothing to do with the loss of the Eastern Territories, the only connection was they apeared during/after WWII -- CC, 06:00, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Polish claims over Kiev

(In matter of fact, Poles did claim sovereignity over Kiev during the Polish-Soviet war. By the treaty with the Petlura, Poland passed its rights to Ukraine.)

I moved the abovementioned statement to the discussion. As long as the author doesn't post any proof, it should stay here.Halibutt 23:14, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Anon edits

I did a few minor edits to this page for several reasons. First, it was rather badly written with several sentences that made little or no sense. Second, the page reads like an excerpt from the handbook of a Polish nationalist and little to do with historical facts but instead attempts to justify the shift of the German-Polish border after World War 2. Things like this only the wiki. Stop it already. As far as I am concerned this entire entry should be deleted because the very title alone (Recovered territories?) is not in any way a widely used or accepted term (in the English language) for referring to these areas.

Although the article was (and perhaps still is) somewhat strange, deletion is out of the question. The term Ziemie Odzyskane is commonly used in Poland and as such should also be reported on wikipedia. As long as the article describes the propaganda agenda behind the term and all the situation in 1945 - it's ok.

However, you simply decided to delete everything apart the definition itself, which is IMO a bad idea. I'll move the text you deleted here, so that we could correct it and put it back. How about that? Halibutt 23:13, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

This ideology was taught in the schools, and was catered to in newspapers and books. All traces of Polish history in the West were carefully recovered, with complete disregard of Polish history in the East.

Even in Germany, one of the positive and widely appraised aspects of the ideology of the Recovered Territories was the reconstruction of historical, old city centers that were demolished in the war. The cities of Wroclaw and Gdansk with their medieval houses look much better now than they did before the war. This is according to some expelled Germans (vide Gunther Grass about the old city of Gdansk).

After 50 years of education, many Poles believe passionately in Poland's ancestral rights to the areas.

Arguments for the Polish ancestral rights

This position is defended by facts, such as the Holy Roman Empire's meeting at the tomb of Saint Adalbert in 1000, showing Silesia and Lubus were already part of Poland, Pomerania a Polish fief. This area of the country was made into a separate Polish province of the church, which included Silesia until 1850 and Lubus, Pomerania until the Reformation. Also the fact that Poland bordered the Holy Roman Empire was possible only because the Slavic people that lived between the Oder and Elbe rivers were already the subject of conquest from the side of Saxonian vassals of the Holy Roman Empire. During the partial division of Poland in this period (1138-1320), Poland lost Lubus and sovereignty over the western part of Pomerania, which became a separate state called Silesia. Silesia was ruled by princes from the Polish dynasty of Piast until 1675, and eventually, in 1343, recognized the sovereignty of the rulers of Bohemia.

Counter-Arguments

Many who are not Polish and some who doubt the validity of these claims contend that the concepts of the Poland of a thousand years ago and the Poland of modern times bear very little relation to each other. This concept is comparable to the claim of some modern English nationalists who derive their Englishness from the inheritance of Alfred the Great.

Slavic brothers

"The brothers Czech and Lech are the semi-legendary Slav brothers, from which the Czechs and Lechiten or Poles derived their nations."

I removed the above sentence for several reasons:

1. these "brothers" are not even semi-legendary, but fully legendary; apart from that, the brother Rus is omitted;
2. more importantly, the sentence does not have any apparent relation to what was said above and below.

--Thorsten1 12:57, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I believe you spotted an authentic, genuine User:H.J. artefact. Space Cadet 13:18, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

As far as I remember in Czech version of the legend there's no mention of Rus at all. Halibutt 14:32, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

700 years borderline between Poland and Silesia

The borderline between Silesia and Poland had existed for around 700 years and was so one of the most stable borders in Europe.

--Wikiferdi 13:40, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, not exactly. Silesia was divided onto hundreds of small duchies and princedoms. Some of them were independent, others were dependent on Poland, Bohemia, the emperor or Austria. This pattern constantly changed until late 18th century, so I wouldn't call the border stable. The border of the historical region was defined, but the political borders between spheres of influence constantly changed. Halibutt 14:18, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

Although it was fairly stable in terms of military actions - there were I believe no conflicts between Poland and Germany since early Middle Ages until the time of Partitions (and I am not sure if then-Prussia forces actually took any signingicant part in figthting Polish forces). That is not counting some German activities during some Polish kings elections). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:48, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, the struggle for Silesian duchies was mostly political or dynastic. It all breaks down to struggle for inheritance of particular duchies after the local Piasts started dying out. That's why some of the duchies remained subdued to Poland until the very end while others were Germanized politically relatively early. However, Poland did not fight for the whole region since the middle ages. If there were any military actions, they were mostly aimed at local dukes and not at the emperor. Halibutt 22:57, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

Additionaly Wikifredi wrote that Silesia didnt belong to Poland for 700 years, he made a simple calculation error. From mid 14th century to mid 20th century there is 6 centuries or 600 years not 700. Not a big difference - the fact remains that it was outside Polish rule for many centuries, i just wanted to clarify the thing. --Serus 00:30, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Right on Home

I did some changes on the depiction of the peace settlement and annexion of former German territiries because the expelled Germans weren´t asked if they like to leave their ancestral homeland. They were forced to leave all they had - without any recompensation. They insist on the humane Right on Home of which they can´t be arbitrarily deprived (cf. Universal Declaration of Human Rights).

--Wikiferdi 14:03, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Kind of a ridiculous expectation. First, Germany invades Poland and murders 6 million of its inhabitants, planning to eventually enslave or annihalate the remainder of the population. Second, according to international protocol, an invading country, if defeated, can be occupied legally, thus ending its existance as a state. I'd say that between that and disregarding Polish claims to their ancenstral homelands, that makes it more than fair. Please stop trying to spread nationalist German propaganda.-- Erikson

Poland attempted to use Danzig, which was a Free City under Polish Administration (but German-majority) as a bargaining chip against Hitler. Hitler hated Poland not because of race (they was ONE of his motives but not the largest), but because so much of what he considered German territory was GIVEN to Poland after the first world war -- and much of it he was correct about -- part of the the German side of my family originates in what became part of Poland. Don't forget, post-war the Polish-Soviet forces murdered several hundred thousand German civilians while forcing them to leave. They also received no compensation, even though those areas were German for nearly a millenia -- hardly the Polish homeland. Please stop trying to spread nationalist Polish propoganda (is there any other kind?). Antman 03:56, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

1939

In 1939 the population of the regions assigned to Poland after the Second World War consisted mostly of self-identified ethnic-Germans (although many had Slavic ancestry) and a significant Polish minority. Some one million Poles lived outside of Poland on the German side. Initially Poland was promised East Prussia, Upper Silesia and the eastern part of Western Pomerania up to Kolberg.

These sentences do not make sence to me. In 1939 Who assigned and what regions to Poland? In 1939 Who initally promised EP US and eastern WP to Poland? Philip Baird Shearer 11:09, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

They were assigned after WW II, population lived in 1939, and regions in question were the Recovered territories. Space Cadet 13:06, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Stalin decided that Poland should receive large chunks of German territories post-WW2. Although most of the Allies (particualarly the UK) objected, they did not stop it... the Germans weren't in a very good bargaining position either. Those territories that Poland gained (don't give me your rhetoric SC, large parts of it were NEVER Polish or had not been for nearly a millenium) were what the Polish call the Recovered Territories, and the Germans called the Ostdeutsche Gebiete unter Polnische Verwaltung, or East German Territories under Polish Administration. Antman 03:53, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Doesn't the article explain just that? Halibutt 08:37, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Removed inaccurate section

I removed the section on on supposed views of Poles, it was both inaccurate and unreferenced. The territories in question in fact WERE part of Poland earlier as shown on the map. --Molobo 17:56, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Moved from the article to talk

Acquring territories West to the Oder-Neisse line was part of the process of Polish westward shifting, which went along with Soviet annexation of the land east of the Curzon line. Both changes were decided at the Potsdam conference. This included not only shifting borders, but also movement of people, and tradition.

Despite the fact that a Polish population had always lived in these regions, they had also been politically and ethnically German since the colonization of these rural areas during the Middle Ages by advancing German kingdoms and German farmers.

Change of perspective required

The article does not make it sufficiently clear that "Recovered Territories" is essentially not a geographical concept, but a political one that did not emerge until the mid-20th century. In post-war propaganda, it was coined to encourage people, especially from the former East of Poland (kresy) to settle down permanently in the newly acquired post-German areas, which these people were very reluctant to do. In its present form, however, with a large section about the Middle Ages, this article implies the existence of a coherent political and territorial entity that antedates the use of the term "Recovered Territories". This, however, is untrue. It is an undisputed fact that all these territories were part of the Polish state earlier in their history. However, apart from that there is fairly little that would link the various regions covered by this term. Explaining the history of Pomerania, Silesia, Greater Poland etc. both here and in their proper articles creates a large deal of unwarranted redundancy. It also constitutes an implicit political statement that we are simply not entitled to make. In short, this article should focus more on the actual concept rather than the territories. (Similar things can be said about Historical Eastern Germany.) With Molobo taken care of for the time being, I hope we can move away from the nationalist POVs that pervade articles like this one. Still, I'd like to hear others' opinions before making any edits. --Thorsten1 14:15, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I can see your point, and I did not realize that until you pointed it out, some things just slip under the radar. "recovered" implies of course that it was lost, then retaken, however this is not really true as in some areas there was no existent Polish population. It would be the equivalent of the UK conquering USA and proclaiming it the "recovered colonies". of course this is obviously wrong, and would be a political statement. I feel links to the articles about the certain areas' histories should be enough and we should not state it again here, for the exact same reasons as Thorsten. --Jadger 21:03, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Second that, too. From today's perspective it is not only a political concept but a historical political concept, as it's not in wide use in Poland today, except for its historical context. I'd however prefer to avoid the discussion on whether the territories were really "recovered" or not. It was just the name that was used for political purposes of the times and I'm sure it's still easy to find sources supporting either point of view. I've made first edits to the lead along these lines. --Lysy 21:52, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Not-used Block

What happened to the text block at the top of the page that notified people that this was not a commonly used term outside of Poland? I thought that that was an interesting touch. Ameise -- chat 05:49, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

The first sentence of the article reads: "was a political concept used in Communist Poland". What is not clear here ? --Lysy 06:00, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, it can't be -was-, because I still see people on Misplaced Pages (especially puppets who come over from pl) using it quite often. Ameise -- chat 16:41, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Really ? I've never heard it being used in contemporary Polish other than in historical context. --Lysy 17:04, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

A few people on this site I have heard use it, include who was Space Cadet (I think he is gone now?) and a few other people who were very, very nationalistic. Ameise -- chat 18:16, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Space Cadet is still alive and kicking, just doesn't seem to edit as much anymore. I think the warning at the start is/was good, as people skim over an article they may miss that half a sentence. Kind of like how people are claiming The Da Vinci Code as factual even though it is just a novel. If there is half a sentence at the start then the rest of the article is written as a definition, some people may take it as fact, rather than just a propoganda term used by the Communists to justify the forceful annexation of German lands. What harm does the warning at the start have if you leave it in? NONE, so why take it out? if something isn't broken, you don't fix it.

--Jadger 18:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I have readded it -- going thru the history, it appears to have been removed by an IP that was listed as a vandal. Ameise -- chat 06:54, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Should have noticed it myself. --Lysy 08:16, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Merger

I am against this merge... 'Recovered Territories' is only a term that has meaning in Poland, 'Historical Eastern Germany' has universal meaning. If anything, this should be merged there. Ameise -- chat 17:06, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

deletion of map

I think the map showing the territory controlled by Boleslav the wrymouthed should be deleted as has been mentioned here. It tries to make claims to the land/justify the expulsions and territory changes when this article is not about justifying the border changes but simply stating a past political idea. Perhaps mentioning that the land was controlled by what is considered the Polish state of the time is used as an excuse to change the borders 1000 years later. Not to mention it is misleading in that it also includes the lands controlled by the Polish Duke inside the holy roman empire, but were fiefs to the Emperor. These lands were not independent, but it is misleading to think they were also ruled by the Piast Dukes in total autonomy.

--Jadger 11:51, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Poland emerged 20% smaller

Dear Jadger, I do not know what citation you need. If you would go to some historical atlas, you will found a map like that dated 1922-1938 at . Visual diagnostic is enough to found that present Polish territory is smaller. There is also sentence: "The new Poland emerged 20% smaller by 77,500 square kilometers (29,900 sq mi). The shift forced the migration of millions of people – Poles, Germans, Ukrainians, and Jews." The exact areas for the different period you probably should gland on Polish Wiki 322 575 km² is at and 389 720 km² . You can decide yourself how the food note should look like in the article. From my point of view, it needs not a citation. --131.104.218.146 20:26, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

along with the vast majority of educated people, I do not speak polish, perhaps provide a reliable english link that people can understand. Also, when there is a {{fact}} tag, that does not mean you mention something on the talk page in broken English then delete it, it means you should insert a link to a reference. Also, not all land is equal except in size, the formerly German areas were heavily industrialized and see for instance the value of 1 square mile in downtown Manhattan compared to the same size of land in say, the Sahara Desert. Poland was more than "compensated" it was picking from the corpse of Germany.

--Jadger 00:48, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Dear Jadger, If you like to discuses Polish affairs you should make a afford to understand the opposite party - also their language. Demanding that the attacked side will give you ready meal is at least strange. I ensure you that knowing better or less English or Polish has nothing to do with level of education, as in both of this languages you can express yourself and study equally well. Languages knowledge has also nothing to do with sense of logic and polities. I do not think I have to fulfill you demand according to you imagination. I can study in Polish and English but most of facts regarding Polish history are in Polish literature, obviously. I give you one ling to En Wiki. For the future I direct you to a Public library, my first choice would be Britanica, but American encyclopedia this size would provide reasonable and in most case objective information. After that, I would question the (citation). When you demand explanation having only desire to contradict is, well – problematic.

Regarding value of land: First above all, your private war is very interesting psychological phenomenon. You are Canadian with one German grandparent and generally mixed national origin. I believe you knowledge of European history is strictly armature. My impression is that instead show interest and objectivity you attempt to prove you vision, which unfortunately dose not have strong foundation in reality. You do not recognize a fundamental fact what is recognized by most people - even in Germany. Hitler's Germany was responsible for aggression, for most deadliest and savage war. In my perception, you want erase a crime saying: "It is no matter who start the brawl. It dos not matter who was victim who was offender. We equal because you lost eye and I lost one. You lost leg but I lost arm. etc." My question: Is it has a sense?.

My opinion is criminal is criminal and he has to be punish because he was the aggressor, the cause. Because the conclusion I am not going to weigh the German and Polish loses with Canadian who pretend to be, ... well I do not know - judge? You need to judge the lost in Polish economy in Polish population privately for yourself. For me it is to personal to argue my family and fatherland loses with a strange person. It is not like for you a book tale only. I will not point a source in literature for you search, I just would wish you to be more scientific and critical with you lectures and demands. Objectivity is an art, and you mentioned at some time that you are biased. I hope that you understood my broken English. Best regard, A --131.104.218.46 17:34, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

again, you greatly misunderstand me, on the English wikipedia it is generally understood that everyone who contributes understands English, and some people know other languages. For those of us unfortunate to know the language a link is given in, do you not think we are entitled to ask for it to be translated so that we all may understand it? You don't see me calling you ignorant for not understanding the unique Canadian dialect, or for not knowing quebec French. the rest of your post does not warrant a response, as it was a personal attack, so please stop disobeying Misplaced Pages rules.

--19:14, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Dear Jadger, The principal rule of Wiki is to show neutral, better say objective info. Saying: "Poland was more than "compensated" it was picking from the corpse of Germany." you display very pitiful judgment and offence. The point is you do not understand the two basic thinks: 1) Poland experienced most savage aggression and this cannot be compare with anything what Polish people did at anytime. I direct you to summarization of II WW in English encyclopedias. I am not going to haggle about this numbers. I give you this only to start you study. According to my knowledge: Poland lost: solders 850 000 civilians 6 000 000 in total 6 850 000 (19.7% of population) Germany lost: solders 3 250 000 civilians 2 810 000 in total 6 060 000 (8.7% of population) I hope you do not assume the German loses are Polish fault. 2) Being so careless with you words you offend Poles in such way which civilized Germans would not dare to do. Finally, do not hide you attempts blaming me for personal attack since there was none of such. You overestimate criticism. Personal attack for me is using street words or other unprovoked direct names. My question for example: "Are you Nazi?" is none of such offences or attack. You just do not know what you are doing. I attempt to explain to you that the WW II is subject which you do not understand. I want you to be very careful when talking with Poles about WW II results. It is very very difficult to be patient with such "Poland was more than "compensated" it was picking from the corpse of Germany." Please be careful the decision was USSR, USA and UK and was done for the sake of future peace anyway. Ask them to compensate Germany the “loses”. Ask instead attack (you do it no doubts) give your info and source of info. Just exchange information. Do not judge. Do not force your unsupported wishes. You talk with people whose families were more then decimated. A.

LOL, I don't care to answer your assertions because:

• you claim I blame Poland for all of Germany's loss (which I don't) and then you go and blame Germany for all of Poland's loss, which is totally false!!!
• you are a petty nationalist (I would even say borderline racist) who tries to skew everything to make Poland look like the victim of history. Poland is a nation that does not matter on the world stage. GET OVER IT, don't keep trying to blame others/make excuses for Poland's failure. you can try to blame Germans/Germany for Poland's misfortune, but her own leaders did not act to Poland's best interests in the situation, and that is why what happened happened. If Poland's own rulers hadn't of weakened her before the partitions, the partitions wouldn't of been successful, end of story.

asking someone "are you a Nazi?" implies that you think they are. I don't know about in Poland, but when we meet a new person in the English world we don't automatically ask them "are you a Nazi?" for no reason. it is a loaded question, you don't have people walking up to you and asking "when did you stop beating your wife?" do you? you would surely take offence if they did ask you. and in any case, it does not matter how u take your questions to others, in any legal case of harassment it is how the victim takes it to mean that matters.

and finally I don't care how Poles take WWII's consequences as with everyone else, their views (on average) are biased, as you have perfectly shown here on Misplaced Pages. you have shown how nationalist, jaded, POV and misunderstanding you are. I ask for a citation to prove that Poland lost 20% of its land, in order to improve the article, but then I get a lecture from you on how poor ol' Poland is always suffering. I don't care how or why Poland is suffering! I asked for a reference and got it, that is all that was needed. not some lecture from a crusading nationalist who likes to dabble in historical revision (but its more like historical denial)

--Jadger 00:17, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

P.S. you said: "Please be careful the decision was USSR, USA and UK and was done for the sake of future peace anyway. Ask them to compensate Germany the “loses”" The potsdam agreement was not a binding agreement, and it never gave the land to Poland, it gave them temporary administration over the lands, and using that administration they expelled and murdered millions of Germans, then claimed the land for themselves with Soviet backing later on. stop trying to blame others for the crimes that your nation committed, the blame lands squarely on your shoulders

18Dec06 >You claim I blame Poland for all of Germany's loss (which I don't) and then you go and blame Germany for all of Poland's loss, which is totally false!!!

I only asked you if you blame Poland for all German losses. I did not claim knowledge of you mine. There are of course Soviet faults but in total is some 80% of Germans.

>You are a petty nationalist (I would even say borderline racist) who tries to skew everything to make Poland look like the victim of history.

Call me as you want. I call my self as patriot. If Poland was victim of history? Well much more then Germany, more then Russia, more then Belgium etc. We were just between two major powers of Europe in the corridor, flat territory where all goes back and forth. This is the difference between Canada and Poland. Its geographical location. You should think about it.

>Poland is a nation that does not matter on the world stage. GET OVER IT,

No comments. Do you love anything, maybe you only love is dollar?

>don't keep trying to blame others/make excuses for Poland's failure. you can try to blame Germans/Germany for Poland's misfortune,

Do you mean forgot the blood which was bloodshed. You do not know what you talking about. It should be never forgotten just for the sake of future generations. In Germany still Nazi party exists.

>but her own leaders did not act to Poland's best interests in the situation, and that is why what happened happened.

What happened? The II WW? Anyway do you believe Canadian leaders doing good job? It is only shallow impression because some economic prosperity.

>If Poland's own rulers hadn't of weakened her before the partitions, the partitions wouldn't of been successful, end of story.

Yes, democratic countries are weak. Poland was in some sense democratic country (less then USA of that days). Possibly if you know the constitution 1791 was the second on the world, just after USA. Beside role of “Solidarity” in last century it indicates something. Any way my impression is you know little about Europe history. There a lot of small countries which participation is important.

>asking someone "are you a Nazi?" implies that you think they are. I don't know about in Poland, but when we meet a new person in the English world we don't automatically ask them "are you a Nazi?"

It was not automatically in the case of so many German arrogant. It was only an example in conversation with you. It was not a personal question. You to often exaggerate.

> and finally I don't care how or why Poland is suffering!

That is bad. You show many consideration how poorly German were treated expelled from Poland. Now you show no respect to the death in concentration camps. Just beautiful. I could not expect anything more. Now: Are you Nazi?

>I asked for a reference and got it, that is all that was needed. not some lecture from a crusading nationalist who likes to dabble in historical revision (but its more like historical denial)

For sure I need not lecture from you how I should treat my fatherland. Also I need not lecture how to treat German revisionism. I am not revisionist I accept the present borders of Poland :))), I do not look for revision. You do.

>The Potsdam agreement was not a binding agreement, and it never gave the land to Poland, it gave them temporary administration over the lands,

It is you interpretation check the American, British and other atlases. Give me the “temporary” proof if you can.

>and using that administration they expelled and murdered millions of Germans,

millions? Do not be funny. Murdered maybe accidentally a few, it could happened because the post war disorder. After the war, what was German fault anyway. Millions you are absolute arrogant, where came from the number. You will have to apologize I am sure. In total was 3 millions how many death. Such number you are perfect crazy in XIX century Trucks did kill 1.5 million Armenians and we know it and after WW II in center of Europe MILLIONS of Germans. I have no words on you insolence. You will apologize it in bold big font on first line of the discussion or I will publicize you all around the World. Andrew

thank you very much "Andrew" (really User_Talk:131.104.218.46), you have firmly proven the points which I had made above. As for asking me to cite my source, here you go: "The Allies had transferred the German Silesian, Pommeranian and East-Prussian territories to Poland in 1945 for occupation, but not necessarily for outright annexation.]"

as for numbers: see here or

--Jadger 22:30, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Where is the authorized text of the Potsdam conference? You serve me some German Bla Bla in link first. I am not in mood to get this from you. At last link is: Died during flight or expulsion.: Poland 263,000 I underline both “flight or expulsion.” Where the f… MILLIONS? Also the number 263 000 is no realistic at all this is revisionist propaganda. It would be 100 000 death from 4.1 millions flight and 163 000 from 3 millions at expulsion. It would be possible maybe 10 000 old people etc. because they (of course) did not have trains or cars - who had that time. Any way, this is my last words to you or you apologize. No discussion with you any more without the apology. A

"Died during flight or expulsion.: Poland 263,000" read the note at the bottom of that table though, it says that the "recovered" territories were included in Germany because that is where the pre-war census data was from. 263 000 were all people living in what was prewar Poland, not postwar. I have cited sources, but you have not once cited yours, you cannot pull number out of a hat and say they are factually accurate. and what am I apologising for? the millions of Germans who were murdered or expelled? I am not entitled to apologize to them as I have no connection with the corrupt Polish regime that murdered some of them and took all of their homes from them.

--Jadger 23:45, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Wrong interwiki link

Hi, some days ago I removed an obviously bogus interwiki link from this article to de:Ostgebiete des Deutschen Reichs ("Eastern territories of the German Empire"). The German article links back to Historical Eastern Germany, which is probably the closest equivalent. The German Translation of "Recovered territories" would be "Wiedergewonnene Gebiete" which does not exist as a separate article. --Johannes Rohr 16:14, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

this is probably done automatically by a bot that doesn't know the difference between the two articles, and to tell you the truth, I think this article should be deleted. Now the Polish nationalists are going to all get up in a rage, attack me, calling me a Nazi etc. etc. and claim I am doing this just to "keep Poland down", but first let me explain my reasons.

the title of the article is "Recovered Territories", and the opening warning/note states it is a political concept created by the former Communist Regime in Poland. but what's this? nowhere in the rest of the article is there mention of it as a political concept. The rest of the article outside of the opening note is just a propogandist excuse page for the Polish annexations in 1945. If this were an article about a political term, it might have say, excerpts from speeches of politicians who used the term, or who developed the term, or something else that is there to clarify and illuminate on the subject. none of those things are done!!! THIS ARTICLE IS A THINLY VEILED ATTEMPT TO JUSTIFY THE EXPULSION AND MURDER OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE

So, I think we have two reasonable options: we can merge the article with Historical Eastern Germany, taking what little useful information is in this article and placing it in the historical eastern Germany article, perhaps under a new header, although that may mean creating a POV fork. The other reasonable option we have is to just delete this page as it offers nothing useful to wikipedia or the reader, it does not enlighten, it propogandizes.

so which should I request? merger or deletion?

--Jadger 20:12, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Some kind of compromise along the lines of merger seems most reasonable. Dr. Dan 23:28, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Exclude Jadger

Anybody who has enough experience with ill will of Jadger please give me a hand. --Serafin 00:57, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know who you are, or where you're from. From your contributions, I will assume that you are Polish. If so, that's sad for the great Polish people. Hopefully, you are not living in the United States. Misplaced Pages is an international project which was created in the United States, the land of my birth. As a proud American, and I say that with the knowledge that my country is not without "sin", I must tell you that whoever you are, you need to recede back to what ever close-mind totalitarian "society" that your thought processes evolved out of. I give a rat's ass about Jadger, but think people like you, not Jadger are the problem! You bray, Exclude Jadger, and then ask for help from "others". This is censorship, and unacceptable to my understanding of the Misplaced Pages project. All viewpoints, including ones that both of us should deplore, are entitled to be expressed, and then debated by the community. Even yours. Exclusion of someone or something that you disagree with, is very bogus. It wasn't too long ago that instead of wanting to "exclude" Jadger, people with your POV preferred to "liquidate" the Jadgers. Jadger has every right to express his thoughts and opinions. It's called freedom of thought and freedom of speech. It's your mindset that has got to go! Dr. Dan 01:58, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Amen to that !!! - (I hope you don't mind the y ?) This number 131/Serafin has done this for several months at the German wikipedia, he accused and attacked everybody and everything and they finally blocked him. He goes on and on here. He does know Polish, contributes ? on Polish wiki too, but he writes from Troy MI Guelph Uni. I have traveled on Polish trains several times and visited cities and towns and met many very nice friendly helpful Polish people and yes, many nowadays do speak German and travel between Danzig, pardon me Gdansk and Stettin and Berlin and School groups exchanges are on a daily basis and nothing out of the ordinary. I met and talked to a man from Danzig, and yes the people that live in the German East or Polish West do know and whats more use the German names for the towns. Compare that to this ongoing idiocy at wikipedia, where all English names of people and places have to be in Polish. Its the people like this person, that give Poles a bad name. Is he a re-incarnation of Caeius, Polish Politician, Witkacy, Emax, Molobo or what ?? I am not answering him anymore, he gives me a headache. Labbas 19 December 2006

As you may note here this "Serafin" is a noted disruptor on the German Misplaced Pages. It is also stated that this is the same person as the disruptive User:131.104.218.46. That is pretty clear as they have both been signing their comments in the identical way, and have the same identical editing habits, as you will see here: ]

as for questioning which blocked user he may be a sockpuppet of, I doubt it can be Molobo, as he has been busy compiling a list on his talk page of articles he is planning on disrupting when his ban is lifted, to think I almost miss the guy, but I think he will be back with a bang for sure.

--Jadger 11:30, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

All of you accept the truth you will need to blame anybody. Stop spreading Jadger the Nazi garbage.

Ecxample: “Poland was more than "compensated" it was picking from the corpse of Germany.” or “Poland, it gave them temporary administration over the lands, and using that administration they expelled and murdered millions of Germans,…”

Freedom of speech does not freedom of lies. Is it the USA guy imagination? A.--131.104.218.46 14:51, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Dear anonymous 131.104.218 etc., those of us who can read, write, and understand English will be able to handle all of the different viewpoints without censorship, of all the various contributors. BTW, the "recovered territories" title has a strange "ring" to the English speaking ear. Wouldn't you agree? Try signing in and registering. It's free. Dr. Dan 03:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

He has Dr. Dan, by having a active anon I think he is hoping to be able to sockpuppet votes, without actually creating a sockpuppet, because the same person is User:Serafin. Or maybe he just forgets to sign in most of the time, I assume good faith and hope it is the latter.

--Jadger 11:21, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Antman's latest reversion of my edits

I don't understand Antman's last reversion to this article which had an edit summary that said "revert vandalism (by unnamed ip)". The edit immediately before his reversion was mine and, as far as I can tell, did not make any substantive changes to the content but rather improved the English. In particular,

1. "It is also possible (based on Tacitus' Germania that Germanic were also moving through these lands."

This sentence is awkward for a number of reasons.

a) there is an unclosed left parenthesis

b) Without the paarenthesis, the sentence says "It is possible that Germanic were also moving through these lands"

Since when is "Germanic" a collective noun? Why not just say "Germanic tribes"?

c) If you fix the above issues, you wind up with "It is also possible (based on Tacitus' Germania) that Germanic tribes were..."

This is still a bit awkward. Better to just come out and say "According to Tacitus' Germania, Germanic tribes were..." and then add a caveat if it is unclear whether or not historians credit Tacitus' account e.g. "Some historians believe that Tacitus' account is credible."

2. "After World War I, in 1918, the Polish state (which was previously an elective monarchy) was reestablished as the Second Polish Republic."

This sentence is awkward for a number of reasons

a) "the Polish state (which was...) was re-established...". A better use of verb tenses would be "The Polish state, which had previously been..." was re-established..."

b) Also, the sentence is in the passive voice and could be improved if it was cast in the active voice. Who re-established the Polish state?

3. "Its territory included the territories of Prussia that had been acquired in the third partition of Poland(and from 1871 was a part of the German Empire).

This sentence is awkward because

a) verb tense agreement - "territories of Prussia that had been acquired... and from 1871 was a part of..."

In this case, a better locution would be "territories of Prussia that had been acquired... and had been a part of the German Empire since 1871"

4. "The provinces taken from Germany and ceded Poland by the Treaty of Versailles include"

This sentence is awkward because

a) The sentence is in the passive voice; use of the active voice would be preferable

b) The word "include" is used for the second sentence in a row. This is not a major problem but it makes for weak prose.

c) "taken from Germany" (by whom? by the Treaty of Versailles? perhaps but this is a shorthand that could be expressed in a better way. Perhaps "by the provisions of the Treaty of Versailles. This is a minor point.

d) "ceded Poland" - "ceded" is a transitive verb, "ceded to Poland" is the correct locution

I am reverting back to my edits. If you are not happy with my edits, please feel free to improve the text but please do so in consideration of the above points (i.e. improve on my text rather than reverting back to the previous text).

--Richard 06:22, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, I was going to revert back to my revision but User:131.104.218.46 beat me to it. While I appreciate the support, I want to distance myself from 131's edit summary which characterized Antman's reversion as "chauvinism". Antman may be chauvinistic but I don't want to characterize my edits as part of a chauvinist/anti-chauvinist conflict. My edits were intended primarily to improve clarity and diction. It was not my intent to change the meaning of the text in any substantive way.

In general, I do not wish to start an edit war of any type and, in particular, I do not wish to engage in POV pushing.

I just felt that Antman's edit summary did not seem to describe my edits so I wondered if he had reverted my edits by accident.

--Richard 06:31, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I reverted your edits by accident, right now there is a lot of stuff going on in the article, and I was removing good-faith edits by the unnamed IP as well as Piotrus, and yours happened to get caught in the crossfire. Sorry. Antman -- chat 19:20, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

POV

The article as written is written in extremely poor English, and what it does seem to say does not properly portray both sides of the issue; currently, it is strongly biased towards stating that Poland is in the right, and the article seems to be trying to tell the reader that 'Recovered Territories' was an actual legitimate concept, and not simply propaganda. Antman -- chat 03:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you, but the usual explanation is that it is a political term, so does not actually describe what is actual fact. I don't know why this article needs to be so long, it seems to be just a page meant to create excuses for the expulsion of the German inhabitants and annexation by Poland. I would say that pretty much all that needs to be said in this article can be summed up in a couple of lines: "Recovered Territories" is a political term created in Communist Poland to justify the annexation of German lands following WWII. Some of these lands had been separately ruled by various autonomous feudal Polish Dukes from the 9th to the 13th century. Germans had been settling in these areas for many years and by the 1300s, these lands had been either conquered by the Teutonic Knights, or had been incorporated into the Holy Roman Empire. After WWII, the Communist governments in Moscow and Warsaw demanded these lands be ethnically cleansed of Germans and annexed by Poland to compensate Poland for the loss of its Kresy territories. Is there really anything else I forgot? of course, you can find ways to put it nicer and make it not seem like it was as horrible crime as it was.

--Jadger 08:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Note: Piotrus removed the POV tag on the grounds that it was not explained on the Talk Page. Antman made the mistake of adding the explanation at the top of the Talk Page rather than at the bottom per convention. That's probably why Piotrus missed it. I think the beginning of the article starts out NPOV and then loses that stance and slips into a "Poland is right to refer to these as Recovered Territories" towards the end of the article. It might be OK to restore the POV tag but I would suggest that someone just fix it. --Richard 06:53, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Right, feel free to restore the tag, although by the same reasoning the tag should be added to the 'pro-German' Historical Eastern Germany.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  07:09, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

so would anyone be against my above edit which would try to wipe the POV from this article?

--Jadger 08:44, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes. For starters, you forget to tell the user that those territories always had a significant number of Poles living there... -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:39, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

This entire article needs to be torn down and either deleted or rewritten. It does not need to be as large as it is, as it covers material that is already discussed in other articles, and right now it is dripping with pro-Polish POV. Antman -- chat 19:18, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I suggested once merger with Historical Eastern Germany as mixing this with an article dreaping with 'pro-German POV' should create something reasonably NPOV. Alas, that idea was rejected by fans of having their POV forks... -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  19:42, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe that both articles should be merged (as they generally cover the same thing), but neither side wants to do it, and I personally believe that if that happens, we will have a war between people who have a German-bias (such as myself), and those who have a Polish-bias (yourself and others). Right now, with having two articles, conflict is minimized. Antman -- chat 19:44, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Our policies strictly forbid creation of 'POV forks'. My old proposal was to merge HEG to this article (as this term is used in some historiographies) - but I guess some ppl couldn't stomach the title. Nonetheless the current proposal - to create an article on Territorial changes of Germany split by period (and/or region) seems much more reasonable. And your template (Template:German borders is certainly useful.)-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  20:00, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I really can't think of a viable solution to either issue myself that would satisfy all involved; we -should- have a talk page devoted to both trying to solve the issue and merge both this article and that article; splitting the discussion into two pages is not helping. Thank you for correcting the links on the template; I was not sure what to link to. Antman -- chat 20:04, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

can you cite any sources that say that all these lands had a "significant" Polish population in them for all their history? because I've never heard that from anyone credible before. also, would you please define "significant" as I notice you have never used words that are quantifiable (i.e. large, majority etc.). <1% is hardly "significant".

And Pan Prokonsul, your previous proposal of merger was hardly fair, you wanted this "article" to take precedence over a article that isn't just about communist political jingoism.

--Jadger 00:40, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

'communist political jingoism', nonetheless, takes precende over 'political jingoism by a disgruntled Wikipedian', my dear Jadger.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  00:52, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

that made no sense Pan Piotr, as those aren't opposed, they are both definitive of your stance. perhaps you could clarify what you meant?

are you going to cite a source that backs up your claims that all these areas always had "significant" Polish populations. or could you atleast define "significant" so the rest of us can do some research?

--Jadger 01:38, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

When I make an edit of the article, you can be sure I will reference this well.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  01:51, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

well, I am trying to reach consensus and edit the article also, can we not have a source? or do you not have one? maybe you're still writing the html code, I'm not sure.

this article is not your property Piotrus, since you haven't cited any sources contrary to my above proposal (and I haven't found any), that means I can edit as I mentioned above. After all, I don't think there is anything that I stated above that hasn't already been referenced in the article.

--Jadger 02:05, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

as a matter of fact, is there anything that is relevant to the subject that isn't already stated in the opening paragraph. it defines the term, this article should be on wiktionary, not wikipedia. unless of course we have an example of how it affected international politics.

--Jadger 02:09, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Removed falsehood

I removed the following obviously wrong statement: In English-speaking countries the term is unknown: proof. Also, in German the name appears to be Wiedergewonnene Gebiete (correct me if I am wrong here, my knowledge of German is rather poor).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  02:37, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, the term is definitely UNUSED in English... I have heard Oder-Neisse Line. Antman -- chat 03:00, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

The Google Books search result above gives 298 English language books in which the term is used. This to me is evidence that the term is used in English. If you disagree, please present your arguments to the contrary (hopefully better than: "I've never heard of it", which only demonstrates the extent of your knowledge and little else). Balcer 04:15, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

About a third on the first page alone were written by Polish authors in Poland who were writing in English. A search for "Oder-Neisse :ine" returns more hits. Antman -- chat 05:07, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, it makes perfect sense that Polish authors would write about these territories (who else?). Nobody is arguing here that this term is more popular than the "Oder-Neisee line". However, it is used frequently enough that no special disclaimer about the term not being used in English is required. Balcer 05:37, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

The disclaimer does not say that it is not known in English, what it says is that it is not an accepted term, which is correct. Antman -- chat 06:46, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

298 books in all of google books for you is proof that it is used in English? please, my elementary school had more Hardy Boys books than that. and as Antman said, most these google books were written by Poles, which just proves that it is only used in English papers written by Poles. and can you cite some examples where it is used, as I bet a bunch of the times it is just as a definition of what the term means that is being referred to.

--Jadger 08:41, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

It does not matter who wrote the books, what matters is that they are written in English. So the term is used in English. Anyway, trying to judge the validity of a book by trying to track down the nationality of its author is a strange tactic. Google Books is not owned or run by Poles, for crying out loud. It is an impartial storagehouse of information, which the whole world can access. Google creates it by scanning books found in libraries in the English-speaking world (not Poland)! If you believe the term is unknown, please present evidence, and then explain why this matters (given that most people in the world have minimal knowledge about the history of Eastern Europe, and yet we don't put everywhere the disclaimer" This event/party/concept is little known in the English speaking world). Balcer 14:28, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Jadger, don't you think that transferred is a more realistic term than recovered, and a more neutral description of what took place? I know for certain that many of the Polish editors involved in this current debate, prefer "transferred" to "recovered" when discussing Vilnius' return to Lithuania. Personally I would like some consistency and logic applied to these discussions, if remotely possible. Dr. Dan 15:55, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

The article is about a propaganda concept employed by the Polish Communist regime, so there is no other option but the current title. We cannot invent a new name for it here. Balcer 19:49, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I most certainly agree with that, and have very little doubt that the Polish communist propaganda apparatus will continue to champion any necessary monitoring of this article and a "plethora" of others on WP. Obviously that element, Jeszcze nie zgineło! Dr. Dan 21:04, 4 March 2007 (UTC)