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| :::] - The IB post drew mention of ] which includes a line saying "where a piece of key specialised information is difficult to integrate into the body text, but where that information may be placed in the infobox". It mentions the ISO code for linguistics and the parameters of Chembox, and I note astronomical data Infoboxes for such as ] and ] are further examples of where reference data or notation should be in the IB. Maybe not all I could hope for, but it is something. Cheers ] (]) 19:06, 24 September 2022 (UTC). | :::] - The IB post drew mention of ] which includes a line saying "where a piece of key specialised information is difficult to integrate into the body text, but where that information may be placed in the infobox". It mentions the ISO code for linguistics and the parameters of Chembox, and I note astronomical data Infoboxes for such as ] and ] are further examples of where reference data or notation should be in the IB. Maybe not all I could hope for, but it is something. Cheers ] (]) 19:06, 24 September 2022 (UTC). | ||
| ::::Well if you want to move it on, the mechanism is an ]. This, if it secures consensus, means that MOS:CURRENCY gets revised and the parenthesised text can be removed from articles. I can't see any chance of achieving it on an article-by-article basis. RFCs are a lot of work, it is critical to set it up properly. I've never done one, though I've seen quite a few failures (frequently at the first fence), so you would be well advised to ask to be mentored through it. --] (]) 19:39, 24 September 2022 (UTC) | ::::Well if you want to move it on, the mechanism is an ]. This, if it secures consensus, means that MOS:CURRENCY gets revised and the parenthesised text can be removed from articles. I can't see any chance of achieving it on an article-by-article basis. RFCs are a lot of work, it is critical to set it up properly. I've never done one, though I've seen quite a few failures (frequently at the first fence), so you would be well advised to ask to be mentored through it. --] (]) 19:39, 24 September 2022 (UTC) | ||
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Revision as of 21:36, 18 December 2022
More discussion on how to handle abolished noble titles
Some of the responses to this thread highlight the issues that our naming, WEIGHT, RS, and NPOV policies apparently do not sufficiently cover. It's not just Austria -- in basically any country where the monarchy was officially abolished and royal/noble titles outlawed, there is some constituent that continues to idolize aristocracy, and the most accessible sources (news articles, magazines) fervently cater to them. Is the POV promoted by rainbow media and aristocratic orgs more DUE than that of the government and academia, which generally do not mention this specific person by name but only cover the disputed title--which by extension ensures that individual doesn't personally, legally claim the title himself? While it would be great if everyone interpreted the above policies as you said you do in the earlier thread (with official constitutional decrees, governmental recognition, and/or personal non-use of a title having precedence when considering article titles as well as article body treatment), there is enough ambiguity that these arguments constantly re-emerge. JoelleJay (talk) 22:19, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
- User:JoelleJay General cases versus Specific items would definitely seem a useful way to make distinctions. For example, the ‘generally’ useful guide for all might give strong value on WP:WEIGHT of the common usage, except to respect a BLP person's explicit ‘specific choices’ otherwise such as abdication or claims in dispute, plus the article should do NPOV and present both views in proportion to their prominence. And individual articles may go their own way in any case so embrace whatever is decided will be just a general guide.
- There might also be some agreement to approach things using specifics. Folks might agree to a principle of respecting ‘specific mentions’ more than of general ones. Or folks might agree to take an approach of smaller bites. Perhaps things could be broken into ‘specific kinds of cases’ (e.g. exiled vs born to title but never titled, vs born after the law, etcetera) and find that some are not contentious. Or perhaps things could be looked at as let's just get a guide ‘specific to Austria and the living Austrian nobility‘ and so just needs to discuss a small number of specific articles and actual situations. Just throwing out ideas here, you may have others. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 03:58, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Pound sterling
Mark, it is not clear from your post what exactly you are declaring your support for. Would you read the three questions again please? John Maynard Friedman (talk) 15:19, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
- @John Maynard Friedman: The phrase "the three questions" should link to Talk:Pound sterling instead of Talk:Pound Sterling. NotReallySoroka (talk) 15:30, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
- Sorry, I can't see any difference?
- Mark put his response at the end of
#Survey (Q1)but I can't see which of your three questions he supports. But I assume that his intent is covered in his subsequent declaration at#Survey (Q2)and we need not pursue further. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 15:45, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
- just to note -- the final comment seems to say clarification not needed about this, but I did go back and saw more to talk about not directly related to the 'not clear' post here. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 16:32, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
MOS:CURRENCY
I sympathise with your view that something like The Neptuno (symbol, ♆, ISO 4217 code EWN) is the currency of Erewhon
as an opening phrase is indeed rather deathly prose, especially as it duplicates the infobox. If there were to be a an advisory on it, MOS:CURRENCY would be the place for it but right now it has nothing to say. So if you want to pursue the question, Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers would be the place to raise it. I guess one immediate riposte would be that the phrase in parentheses provides a landing zone for the (fictitious) Neptuno and EWN (currency) redirects. So you would need to anticipate that one in your proposal. John Maynard Friedman (talk) 18:36, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
- User:John Maynard Friedman - thank you for your note. After some thinking and searching, the relationship of lead and infobox seemed a question wider than currencies, so I posted a question at the TALK of MOS:LEAD and MOS:IB, and will see what comes of that. The MOS:CURRENCY for mentions of currency outside of where the currency is the topic, and it's Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers seemed good places for something else though -- how and why did it get this way for almost all of the ? But while I can see in the history that leads grew into this format circa 2010-2015, I didn't find any overall discussion -- though it was interesting to read such as the Current international dollar vs Zimbabwe. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 15:12, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, good point on the more general issue of duplication. I see the infobox as being the most essential information about the topic in a nutshell. . Duplication in the lead seems to be the norm rather than the exception: years of "custom and practice" got us here. I doubt it will change: some people just like the narrative form of the lead, others the capsule form of the infobox; the fondest adherents of each despise the other. Like some people swear by categories and others (like me) swear about them. You expressed the point well at wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Lead section so I shall be interested to see the outcome. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 15:48, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
- User:John Maynard Friedman - The IB post drew mention of MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE which includes a line saying "where a piece of key specialised information is difficult to integrate into the body text, but where that information may be placed in the infobox". It mentions the ISO code for linguistics and the parameters of Chembox, and I note astronomical data Infoboxes for such as Sirius and Ceres (dwarf planet) are further examples of where reference data or notation should be in the IB. Maybe not all I could hope for, but it is something. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 19:06, 24 September 2022 (UTC).
- Well if you want to move it on, the mechanism is an RFC. This, if it secures consensus, means that MOS:CURRENCY gets revised and the parenthesised text can be removed from articles. I can't see any chance of achieving it on an article-by-article basis. RFCs are a lot of work, it is critical to set it up properly. I've never done one, though I've seen quite a few failures (frequently at the first fence), so you would be well advised to ask to be mentored through it. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 19:39, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
- User:John Maynard Friedman - The IB post drew mention of MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE which includes a line saying "where a piece of key specialised information is difficult to integrate into the body text, but where that information may be placed in the infobox". It mentions the ISO code for linguistics and the parameters of Chembox, and I note astronomical data Infoboxes for such as Sirius and Ceres (dwarf planet) are further examples of where reference data or notation should be in the IB. Maybe not all I could hope for, but it is something. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 19:06, 24 September 2022 (UTC).