| Revision as of 10:49, 24 December 2022 editMitch Ames (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers185,942 edits →Who shot Alan Dare?← Previous edit | Revision as of 11:27, 24 December 2022 edit undoWWGB (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers155,213 edits →Who shot Alan Dare?: cmtNext edit → | ||
| Line 40: | Line 40: | ||
| :::Surely an eyewitness would be a ], which is not our preferred source. Is there some specific reason why you think the , and are not reliable secondary sources when they say the Trains shot Dare? | :::Surely an eyewitness would be a ], which is not our preferred source. Is there some specific reason why you think the , and are not reliable secondary sources when they say the Trains shot Dare? | ||
| :::The fact that he was shot in the back is unusual, but given that he was investigating the fire - so not necessarily approaching the Trains directly - it is plausible. The Trains had apparently "wounded and then fatally shot again at close range", so they evidently weren't "playing fair". ] (]) 10:49, 24 December 2022 (UTC) | :::The fact that he was shot in the back is unusual, but given that he was investigating the fire - so not necessarily approaching the Trains directly - it is plausible. The Trains had apparently "wounded and then fatally shot again at close range", so they evidently weren't "playing fair". ] (]) 10:49, 24 December 2022 (UTC) | ||
| ::::It seems to me that Pete is hinting at a bizarre alternative universe where the cops shot Dare in the back! We have multiple reliable sources that report Dare being shot by the Trains, more than sufficient to pass the WP burden of evidence. Let's stick to the known facts as posted across the media. ] (]) 11:27, 24 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 11:27, 24 December 2022
| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Wieambilla shootings article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
|
| Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
| This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
 | This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
{{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
.svg){kind=logo}
wikimedia.org.au for non-editorial assistance.
 | It is requested that an image or photograph of Wieambilla shootings be included in this article to improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific media request template where possible. The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. | Upload |
The first shooting was a mass shooting.
The siege consisted of the initial shooting, the one that killed the 2 officers, a neighbor and injured another, and the second shooting killed 3 more people. By the definition Misplaced Pages goes by, mass shootings are when 4 or more are shot excluding the perp, so shouldn't the initial attack be mentioned as a mass shooting and not an ambush? Mixed Biscuit (talk) 12:24, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
- Whether or not the incident is considered a mass shooting, that does not prevent it from being an ambush. Where is this Misplaced Pages definition of a mass shooting? WWGB (talk) 12:31, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
- Mass shootings and ambushes are non-mutually exclusive. The article Mass shooting states there is no consensus on the definition, but that the term has been used in some incidents with as few as three surviving victims, while others have required a minimum of five fatal shootings.Ypna (talk) 06:12, 14 December 2022 (UTC) incorrect; Brough was not injured.
A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:37, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Who shot Alan Dare?
I may have missed definitive sourcing in all the media articles but I cannot find any official statement that the Trains shot and killed Alan Dare, the neighbour who came to investigate. The media reports seem to accept this as implicit but neither of the two spokesmen - the police commissioner and the police union leader - ever stated this directly, merely saying that he was shot in the back. Can anybody find a source that is not just a journalist?
This report quotes Dare's wife:
"Ms Dare told NCA NewsWire she was kept in the dark by police on what was unfolding and was left to endure a horrific wait for information about what had happened to her husband.
'They're not telling me anything and I don't know if they will tell me anything,' she said.
'I know that he's gone but I don't know who killed him.'
She also talks about her husband left for dead, his property being seized, and no effort made to contact next of kin. As one of the very few non-senior police sources for this incident, she is clearly not conforming to the careful phrasing and slanting being provided to the media. The two police who survived the shooting have, so far as I know, not spoken directly about the events to the media apart from an anodyne statement released through the union. --Pete (talk) 18:47, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
- "The brothers are the offenders who police say shot and killed two armed officers and neighbour Alan Dare".
- "Nathaniel Train ... , his brother and sister-in-law shot two Queensland police officers and a civilian dead in Wieambilla, police say. WWGB (talk) 06:26, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- I thought I had made it clear. I'm well aware of articles like that where no sources are given. If "police say" something, then just who and when and where are the police saying it? What exactly did they say? Do we have any specific person making this claim? As I say, there may be a definitive source; it's just that I haven't seen one and I've been paying close attention to this. We don't have a single eyewitness report of anything before the police counterattack. The closest we hve is the wife of Alan Dare and she is pretty scathing in her remarks about the police. The Australian attributes some information - about jumping the fence and the male cop driving away from his three comrades - to a "source close to the investigation".
- Surely if the event occurred as described, then we would have the two surviving cops front and centre at press conferences? With the three residents dead, there is no need to be coy about evidence in an ongoing investigation. Instead the survivors, their immediate superiors, and all police in the region have totally clammed up apart from obviously prepared statements that contain no details.
- I think that if we in wikivoice are going to say that specific named individuals killed other specific individuals, then we need to be pretty sure of our sources. I have no problems with saying that the Trains murdered the two police because there is really no alternative scenario that makes any sense. There are two dead police and one shot up police vehicle and it seems unlikely that they fell to gunfighting amongst themselves and blamed the situation on the innocent Trains who were quietly having a cup of tea. There seems to be sufficient evidence that the Trains were conspiracy theorists opposed to government especially in the form of the police, and they had come to the bizarre point where they were willing to shoot up anyone in a police uniform.
- But for this neighbour, we have no details at all apart from the report - from whom? - that he was shot in the back, which in itself makes little sense. If he was approaching the property to lend a hand, then was he walking or driving backwards? If someone saw him shot in the back, then why do they not identify the shooter? If on the other hand that detail comes from an examnation of the body, then that is a different story.
- More details are emerging. The police had called on the Trains previously. They had an arrest warrant for Nathaniel Train related to an illegal border crossing with multiple firearms. I don't think that we need be laying blame or making unsourced claims about the police handling of the situation but I do thnk that we can be careful with our wording if we do not have solid sourcing, especially when no eyewitnesses can be found willing to identify themselves as the source of what few details have emerged from the very top of the Queensland police tree. --Pete (talk) 10:05, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- Surely an eyewitness would be a primary source, which is not our preferred source. Is there some specific reason why you think the ABC, SBS and 7 News are not reliable secondary sources when they say the Trains shot Dare?
- The fact that he was shot in the back is unusual, but given that he was investigating the fire - so not necessarily approaching the Trains directly - it is plausible. The Trains had apparently "wounded and then fatally shot again at close range", so they evidently weren't "playing fair". Mitch Ames (talk) 10:49, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- More details are emerging. The police had called on the Trains previously. They had an arrest warrant for Nathaniel Train related to an illegal border crossing with multiple firearms. I don't think that we need be laying blame or making unsourced claims about the police handling of the situation but I do thnk that we can be careful with our wording if we do not have solid sourcing, especially when no eyewitnesses can be found willing to identify themselves as the source of what few details have emerged from the very top of the Queensland police tree. --Pete (talk) 10:05, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- It seems to me that Pete is hinting at a bizarre alternative universe where the cops shot Dare in the back! We have multiple reliable sources that report Dare being shot by the Trains, more than sufficient to pass the WP burden of evidence. Let's stick to the known facts as posted across the media. WWGB (talk) 11:27, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- Biography articles of living people
- All unassessed articles
- C-Class Australia articles
- Low-importance Australia articles
- C-Class Australian crime articles
- Low-importance Australian crime articles
- WikiProject Australian crime articles
- WikiProject Australia articles
- C-Class Law enforcement articles
- Mid-importance Law enforcement articles
- WikiProject Law Enforcement articles
- Misplaced Pages requested images