| Revision as of 08:42, 16 August 2022 editCameron Dewe (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users28,761 edits Rate as importance=Low for unrated Wiki Project Terrorism article - Start class. Add heading →Comments: to separate WikiProject banners from the body of the talk page← Previous edit |
Revision as of 01:16, 19 February 2023 edit undoMalnadachBot (talk | contribs)11,637,095 editsm Fixed Lint errors. (Task 12)Tag: AWBNext edit → |
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Please note Tuscumbia that even the two non-Azerbaijani government affiliated sources, van der Leeuw and Bolukbasi, make use of the word allegedly, signifying that they themselves are not ready to lay the blame against this shadowy organization. I highly doubt the men who were arrested in connection to the bombing were afforded a fair trial and there are enough embarrassing mistakes to ensure that the Azerbaijani government's assertions, which this article is entirely based on, should not be taken at face value.--] (]) 17:19, 30 September 2011 (UTC) |
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Please note Tuscumbia that even the two non-Azerbaijani government affiliated sources, van der Leeuw and Bolukbasi, make use of the word allegedly, signifying that they themselves are not ready to lay the blame against this shadowy organization. I highly doubt the men who were arrested in connection to the bombing were afforded a fair trial and there are enough embarrassing mistakes to ensure that the Azerbaijani government's assertions, which this article is entirely based on, should not be taken at face value.--] (]) 17:19, 30 September 2011 (UTC) |
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:Yes, they are alleging Vrezh's involvement which is why I reworded. Whether you doubt anything or not, the fact that these two Armenians who were operatives of Vrezh, were convicted is indisputable. The court system at the time was supervised by the Soviets, hence your assertions about Azerbaijani government's wrongdoing is baseless. The fact that individials like Edik Grigoryan who took an active part in Sumgait events or three terrorists who murdered ] along with Soviet officers, were let go in Moscow even though they were caught by Azerbaijani authorities is as much indisputable. So, no need to color this and other terrorist acts as something disputed. ] (]) 19:05, 30 September 2011 (UTC) |
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:Yes, they are alleging Vrezh's involvement which is why I reworded. Whether you doubt anything or not, the fact that these two Armenians who were operatives of Vrezh, were convicted is indisputable. The court system at the time was supervised by the Soviets, hence your assertions about Azerbaijani government's wrongdoing is baseless. The fact that individials like Edik Grigoryan who took an active part in Sumgait events or three terrorists who murdered ] along with Soviet officers, were let go in Moscow even though they were caught by Azerbaijani authorities is as much indisputable. So, no need to color this and other terrorist acts as something disputed. ] (]) 19:05, 30 September 2011 (UTC) |
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:One more thing. If these individuals, and specifically Tatevosov (Tatevosyan) who was later exchanged for an Azerbaijani hostage, were "wrongfully" convicted by that "shameless" Azerbaijani government, I can assure you, 100% that the Armenian media and government would have a years long celebration, taking him to every possible TV show to tell his story of wrongful conviction. ] (]) 19:08, 30 September 2011 (UTC) |
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:One more thing. If these individuals, and specifically Tatevosov (Tatevosyan) who was later exchanged for an Azerbaijani hostage, were "wrongfully" convicted by that "shameless" Azerbaijani government, I can assure you, 100% that the Armenian media and government would have a years long celebration, taking him to every possible TV show to tell his story of wrongful conviction. ] (]) 19:08, 30 September 2011 (UTC) |
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:::: Not necessarily so. The whole event might have been so preposterous, like the sham Azerbaijani arguments during the assassination of the Armenian officer in Hungary, that there was no need to refute or celebrate anything. This all smells like another trick of Azerbaijani KGB. ] (]) 19:20, 30 September 2011 (UTC) |
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:::: Not necessarily so. The whole event might have been so preposterous, like the sham Azerbaijani arguments during the assassination of the Armenian officer in Hungary, that there was no need to refute or celebrate anything. This all smells like another trick of Azerbaijani KGB. ] (]) 19:20, 30 September 2011 (UTC) |
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I have reworded the text a second time but your initial revision only served to obfuscate, not clarify, the circumstances of the individuals' arrest. Courts in the Soviet Union did not have the most squeakiest records for giving prisoners fair trials and I really doubt the central government really held any sway in Azerbaijan by late 1990/1991, what with the drive for independence and all. The Azerbaijani government frames the entire case in whichever way it sees fit and it becomes impossible to verify independently anything it says. To call all this indisputable is, as Szeget writes above, preposterous. Just like the 1994 bombing, it's really difficult to make sense of how the Azerbaijani government so quickly finds these perpetrators, executing most of them before any real questions be asked.--] (]) 20:22, 30 September 2011 (UTC) |
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I have reworded the text a second time but your initial revision only served to obfuscate, not clarify, the circumstances of the individuals' arrest. Courts in the Soviet Union did not have the most squeakiest records for giving prisoners fair trials and I really doubt the central government really held any sway in Azerbaijan by late 1990/1991, what with the drive for independence and all. The Azerbaijani government frames the entire case in whichever way it sees fit and it becomes impossible to verify independently anything it says. To call all this indisputable is, as Szeget writes above, preposterous. Just like the 1994 bombing, it's really difficult to make sense of how the Azerbaijani government so quickly finds these perpetrators, executing most of them before any real questions be asked.--] (]) 20:22, 30 September 2011 (UTC) |
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:Marshall, you're transporting your personal vendetta to Misplaced Pages articles. Whether you have personal perceptions and views on Azerbaijani government or not is your problem. Don't make it mine or any other editor's, for that matter. Courts in Soviet Azerbaijan were supervised by Soviets and these individuals got a fair trial. If it were for Azerbaijani nationalist sentiments and at the hands of the Azerbaijani government as you allege, both would have been sentenced to death. To make the story short, I'll just ask you to refrain from your political agenda and stick to sources. The sources clearly say these two Armenian terrorists who blew up a bus with 60 people, were tried and sentenced. If you have any sources refuting the data or any reliable information from one of the convicted, please feel free to discuss. Otherwise, stop your edit-warring. Period. ] (]) 13:34, 3 October 2011 (UTC) |
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:Marshall, you're transporting your personal vendetta to Misplaced Pages articles. Whether you have personal perceptions and views on Azerbaijani government or not is your problem. Don't make it mine or any other editor's, for that matter. Courts in Soviet Azerbaijan were supervised by Soviets and these individuals got a fair trial. If it were for Azerbaijani nationalist sentiments and at the hands of the Azerbaijani government as you allege, both would have been sentenced to death. To make the story short, I'll just ask you to refrain from your political agenda and stick to sources. The sources clearly say these two Armenian terrorists who blew up a bus with 60 people, were tried and sentenced. If you have any sources refuting the data or any reliable information from one of the convicted, please feel free to discuss. Otherwise, stop your edit-warring. Period. ] (]) 13:34, 3 October 2011 (UTC) |
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::The sources are heavily slanted, thus calling into question their neutrality and the information which you have presented in a very POV manner. You do not own any of these articles and the fact that you just like to edit war and make wholesale reverts because they might dampen the effectiveness of the message you are trying to get across speaks ill of your entire contributions on Misplaced Pages. I have added the appropriate tags because, as it stands, I do not believe this article conveys information in a neutral manner and, quite the opposite, is based on a very mendacious interpretation of already heavily biased sources by its author. --] (]) 17:05, 3 October 2011 (UTC) |
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::The sources are heavily slanted, thus calling into question their neutrality and the information which you have presented in a very POV manner. You do not own any of these articles and the fact that you just like to edit war and make wholesale reverts because they might dampen the effectiveness of the message you are trying to get across speaks ill of your entire contributions on Misplaced Pages. I have added the appropriate tags because, as it stands, I do not believe this article conveys information in a neutral manner and, quite the opposite, is based on a very mendacious interpretation of already heavily biased sources by its author. --] (]) 17:05, 3 October 2011 (UTC) |
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:::If you have problems reading English, please let me know. Otherwise, please do find sources refuting the information in the article. Your disruptive behavior has gone too far. If you are sincerely want to contribute to the articles, ] instead of tagging for no reason. ] (]) 17:46, 3 October 2011 (UTC) |
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:::If you have problems reading English, please let me know. Otherwise, please do find sources refuting the information in the article. Your disruptive behavior has gone too far. If you are sincerely want to contribute to the articles, ] instead of tagging for no reason. ] (]) 17:46, 3 October 2011 (UTC) |
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::::I have already told you why the sources you are using are flawed. Every single edit someone else makes results in a revert by you and you yourself make no attempt at compromise and just ask for overburdensome requests. If this is not the worst case of edit-warring and case of ownership of an article I don't know what is. --] (]) 18:10, 3 October 2011 (UTC) |
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::::I have already told you why the sources you are using are flawed. Every single edit someone else makes results in a revert by you and you yourself make no attempt at compromise and just ask for overburdensome requests. If this is not the worst case of edit-warring and case of ownership of an article I don't know what is. --] (]) 18:10, 3 October 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::You know what? You can complain as much as you want because that's the only thing you're capable of, but if you want to make real contributions, cooperate. I created an article based on sources, you removed sourced data and I restored it explaining why it was done. Now that you insist on something, you need to find sourced information supporting your argument. And you call that "overburdensome"? That speaks of unwillingness to make contributions and willingness to disrupt. I already compromised by changing the word "terrorist" to a "militant" albeit everybody is aware of the difference in these terms. ] (]) 18:17, 3 October 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::You know what? You can complain as much as you want because that's the only thing you're capable of, but if you want to make real contributions, cooperate. I created an article based on sources, you removed sourced data and I restored it explaining why it was done. Now that you insist on something, you need to find sourced information supporting your argument. And you call that "overburdensome"? That speaks of unwillingness to make contributions and willingness to disrupt. I already compromised by changing the word "terrorist" to a "militant" albeit everybody is aware of the difference in these terms. ] (]) 18:17, 3 October 2011 (UTC) |
Please note Tuscumbia that even the two non-Azerbaijani government affiliated sources, van der Leeuw and Bolukbasi, make use of the word allegedly, signifying that they themselves are not ready to lay the blame against this shadowy organization. I highly doubt the men who were arrested in connection to the bombing were afforded a fair trial and there are enough embarrassing mistakes to ensure that the Azerbaijani government's assertions, which this article is entirely based on, should not be taken at face value.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 17:19, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
I have reworded the text a second time but your initial revision only served to obfuscate, not clarify, the circumstances of the individuals' arrest. Courts in the Soviet Union did not have the most squeakiest records for giving prisoners fair trials and I really doubt the central government really held any sway in Azerbaijan by late 1990/1991, what with the drive for independence and all. The Azerbaijani government frames the entire case in whichever way it sees fit and it becomes impossible to verify independently anything it says. To call all this indisputable is, as Szeget writes above, preposterous. Just like the 1994 bombing, it's really difficult to make sense of how the Azerbaijani government so quickly finds these perpetrators, executing most of them before any real questions be asked.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 20:22, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
