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Truth&Wisdom365

TrangaBellam

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning TrangaBellam

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Marcelus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:56, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

TrangaBellam (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:ARBEE or whichever applies

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 12:54, 2 March 2023 Changed the title of the section that was under ongoing discussion
2. 13:01, 2 March 2023 Restored the title of the section without engaging in discussion
3. 14:30, 2 March 2023 Made a major change to the text that was being discussed at the time, without engaging in the discussion
4. 14:47, 2 March 2023 Restored the same edition, ignoring offers to participate in the ongoing discussion on the talk page
5. 17:38, 2 March 2023 Not backed by anything accusation: "All I see is you engaging in a fair amount of acrobatics to push a particular ahistorical POV"
6. 20:15, 2 March 2023 "I plan to ignore your commentary on the meta-issues"
7. 20:35, 2 March 2023 Continued to edit the page ignoring requests to undo the edits and discuss them on the talk page

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

• Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 08:26, 15 February 2023

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I need to report TrangaBellam behavior regarding the Naliboki massacre article and its talk page. To keep it brief. There has been a discussion for some time about the content of one of the sections. TrangaBellam not engaging in the discussion did change the section title, I reverted it inviting user to join the discussion. Twice. Then the user made a much larger edition, which I also reverted, invoking the WP:BRD method and inviting to discussion. It started WP:EDITWARRING. Afraid of breaking the WP:3RR rule, I withdrew the last one, asking TrangaBellam to voluntarily withdraw from the changes and join the ongoing discussions. TrangaBellam ignored the ongoing discussions and started new ones, in which he acted as if they were new WP:CONSENSUS. He refused to revert the changes and continue to editing discussed section ingoring my pleas to stop doing so. TrangaBellam accused me of "engaging in a fair amount of acrobatics to push a particular ahistorical POV", without claryfing what he means about that. To me, this is an example of WP:DISRUPTIVE, as expressed on WP:CONSENSUS: Editors who ignore talk page discussions yet continue to edit in or revert disputed material, or who stonewall discussions, may be guilty of disruptive editing and incur sanctions. The way he acts and the way he addresses me leads me to believe that his actions are intended to make me break WP:3RR and receive sanctions as a result. I asked him nicely to start over on his talk page without any bad blood. But TrangaBellam and once he said on Talk:Naliboki massacre: "I plan to ignore your commentary on the meta-issues", I decided to aks admins for help.

Response to Gitz:

Actually it all started with the removal of an entire section by Adoring nanny (22:03, 21 February 2023), which I reverted (22:05, 21 February 2023) inviting to t/p, which we did, and I was editing other sections (13:17, 26 February 2023).

When I did a major edit (13:45, 28 February 2023). Gitz reverted it, I restored it inviting to t/p. The response was to refer to the WP:BRD method. Reluctantly, but I agreed to this and did not undo edits, and we moved to t/p. The same was with my next major edit (Nowicki's memoirs: 11:27, 1 March 2022).

Gitz accuses me of promoting fringe theory by mentioning Nowicki and Boradyna, ignoring the fact that after TrangaBellam's changes the mention of Nowicki remained and Gitz didn't voice any concerns (earlier Gitz demanded that it need to be hidden in a footnote). It seems that only if I make the change then I am promoting fringe theory and my changes must be reverted. Gitz reacts to TrangaBellam's persistent changes in a completely different way, accepting them without any major objections. My requests to use the WP:BRD method also towards changes made by TrangaBellam have been ignored by both users. I sense the intention to cause me frustration and make me to break WP:3RR.

My point is that the allegations of Bielski partisans involvement appeared in 1993 and were accepted as correct until the IPN investigation. I added (15:15, 2 March 2023) info that Nasz Dziennik used Naliboki allegations to counter the Jedwabne Pogrom.

As for History of the Jews in Poland pls read t/p. In short, using a number of high-quality sources, I proved that the original source of the information in the article made a mistake. (This discussion is a good example of bludgeoing and WP:NOTGETTINGIT on Gitz part btw).

I was responding to all comments and trying to compromise. I changed the attitued after my requests to apply WP:BRD to TrangBellam's edits were ignored. I refused to participate in the new discussions TrangBellam was starting, ignoring the ongoing discussions.Marcelus (talk) 12:17, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

@HJ Mitchell and others: I understand that I reacted too impulsively, however, please consider that my reverts were caused by TrangaBellam ignoring the ongoing discussion, I was convinced that Gitz would support me because of the WP:BRD they brought up before in reference to my edits, at the time I did not mean to editwarring, but to keep WP:STABLE, continue the discussion and make changes once a consensus was reached.Marcelus (talk) 22:00, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

@HJ Mitchell @Callanecc You are right, I should be smarter and more restrained and not engage in edit warring. I would like to apologize for this, perhaps I actually need a moment of rest. I promise to refrain from doing so in the future. I would also like to ask that the ban be as limited as possible, I feel that I have done more good than bad in both fields, and I would not want the ban to be a summary of my contribution to building Misplaced Pages in both fields.

@TrangaBellam: Thank you for this comment. I hope we will have the opportunity to work together on articles in future (but in a better style and in an atmosphere of mutual understanding, I think that's a lesson of this WP:AE)

@Bishonen: As I mentioned, I can see from reading the comments that I didn't manage it and myself all very well. But note that I reverted the title change by TB with the information that it's currently under discussion. In the second revert I invoked the source and WP:BRD. Only then did TB start a "Section title" discussion, but in order to challenge my source, not to discuss the phrasing of the section title. My main objections were raised by the second major edition of TB, in which she completely ignored earlier discussions where certain agreements had been reached, and my invitation to join the ongoing discussion. Also, I think TB plays an important role in this field, pointing out deficiencies and problematic bits in articles. My reservations are with the way TB does this and communicates with people who have a different opinion.Marcelus (talk) 15:00, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

I protest against this accusation by Gitz: uncooperative users such as Marcelus Marcelus (talk) 11:31, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

21:55, 2 March 2023

Discussion concerning TrangaBellam

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by TrangaBellam

Paging Levivich, Adoring nanny, K.e.coffman, Gitz6666, Horse Eye's Back and GizzyCatBella — the other participants in this discussion, article (today), and the ANI thread. I believe their opinion might be of aid. Thanks, TrangaBellam (talk) 21:00, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Fwiw, I do not plan to partake in this AE thread. TrangaBellam (talk) 21:00, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Making an exception for My Very Best Wishes. MVBW, who had reverted my bold edit at the first place for BRD to even come into play? Fwiw, as of now, there is clear consensus in my favor; none barring you — I believe, even VM — propose to restore the deleted section. TrangaBellam (talk) 22:39, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

and knowing it's likely to be controversial, is as good as inviting an edit war and is arguably disruptive in itself. - Sorry, HJM, I do not have a crystall ball. I mostly edit controversial topics on S. Asian history and am well aware of what is disruption and what is not; those who admin the topic area (Bish, V93, et al) can probably attest to the quality of my edits. TrangaBellam (talk) 20:14, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Callanecc, care to provide four diffs of unretracted persistent and egregious personal attacks and incivility displayed by me?

I really don't have a major issue with GizzyCatBella's comments - Wow, did you read this thread? TrangaBellam (talk) 23:21, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Paging Adoring nanny because the previous ping failed due to a typo. TrangaBellam (talk) 21:01, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Response to GCB

GCB promised to shorten the list of diffs to ELC but it didn't happen. So, I am bound to respond to all, despite being at an inherent disadvantage:

• 1 - Meh.
• 2 - GCB has a habit of asking "Have-you-stopped-beating-your-wife" questions to "lengthen the discussion" and take it to tangents "without progressing it towards a resolution".

• Example at Talk:Mariusz Bechta. GCB insinuates that I have not written the BLP conservatively but does not really shed any light. Similarly, I fail to see the point of GCB knowing how I might be accessing a paywalled Polish source; it clearly insinuates that someone (read: Icewhiz, et al.) is providing me the sources. I want to know why Callanecc feels that such leading questions and passive-aggressive behaviour under the guise of politness are permissible. Do note that I had answered the pointed questions quite proffessionally.

• 3

• Animalparty made the quote in the Arbcase, and I liked it enough. So, I let it be known. A couple of months ago, I did the same for a quote on Levivich's u/p. Another few months ago, I did the same, for a comment on a random ANI thread. So, what proves?

• 4

• Yes, using the review of a PhD student on "healthcare consumerism, judgment and decision-making, and behavioral economics" for a book on Holocaust is grotesquely poor. Right now, at a t/p, VM and few others said that I was violating BLP; does that mean they are "throwing aspersions"? Aspersions, if supported by reasonable evidence, are no longer aspersions and my evidence was right in the same comment. The same applies for VM, et al.

• 5

• Huh?

• 6 - multiple diffs

• What GCB skips is that I had retracted the accusations and settled our dispute amicably. There will be some friction in contested areas; I can make much of how and why Piotrus slapped a NPOV tag but I won't. In the end of the discussion Piotrus conceded that he came to understand why Glaukopis is a horrible source - see, that's a win?
• I am also argued to be exhibiting a IDHT attitude. If that is the case, maybe, GCB can explain why Piotrus conceded that there indeed was no positive review of the publication and my article was NPOV? Maybe, Calanecc can ask them, why she skips the incovenient part of the narratives?
• ALso note that after participating in the discussion, GCB does not reply whether she consents to the removal of the NPOV tag and leaves us hanging. As HJM said, her entire motive is to derail the resolution of any discussion by going off on tangents.

• 7

• Yes, I can remove a tag if there is no discussion at the t/p. That is what the template says. Ownership?

• 8

• I keep enquiring for the t/p discussion and he points me to the edit-summary! By policy, edit-summaries are not venues to discuss anything.

• Once again, aspersions, if supported by reasonable evidence, are no longer aspersions. Rational man standard etc.

• TrangaBellam (talk) 23:54, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Response to Calanecc

• Diff 1 - 19 Feb

• I did retract it on Piotrus' request and both of us settled our dispute amicably. There will be some friction in contested areas even if, on restrospection, I should not have made that edit; in the end, we remained on friendly terms and Piotrus came to understand that Glaukopis is a horrible source, even thanking me for it.
• That is a win for everybody except, perhaps, GCB. Do note the net effect of GCB's participation in the t/p — she did not make a single comment on content except one generic remark (you created an article grossly unbalanced. (verification in edit history). Critisism only.) and when finally enquired by Piotrus about the removal of the NPOV tag, left us hanging! As HJM said, her entire motive is to derail the resolution of any discussion by going off on tangents. Their sole content-based remark is so generic that you can copy-paste it into any random article!

• Diff 2 - 20 feb

• At this point of time, I have been subject to a set of "Have-you-stopped-beating-your-wife" questions at Talk:Mariusz Bechta where I responded with utmost proffessionalism. GCB insinuated that I had not followed our BLP policy but did not shed any light on the specifics. Similarly, I fail to see the point of GCB's need to how I might be accessing a paywalled Polish source; it clearly insinuated that someone (read: Icewhiz, et al.) is providing me the sources.
• Still, GCB did not give up pursuit, leading to my revert. Please also note Levicich's and Horse Eye's Back's response in the thread. It is blindingly obvious that GCB tries to bait people by a variety of passive-aggressive behaviour, waiting for the recipient to snap back. And, do note the sheer chutzpah of GCB in making an editor uncomfortable with clear sexual innuendos, and then accusing me and Levivich of being disgusting (in boldface) for supporting the victim. If this is not trolling, well ....

• Diff 3 - 19 Feb

• This is same as Diff 1.

• Diff 4 - 19 Feb

• I feel that GCB's edits have been broadly restricted to coming to the support of Piotrus by reinstalling tags, restoring prefered versions etc. That is not an evidence of any wrongdoing unless seen together with their refusal to engage with the content at the t/p in any meaningful sense. I request that you read HJM's characterization of GCB's edits, once again, and I cannot overemphasize how significant this is.

• For interesting evidence, see GCB's participation at Talk:Tadeusz Piotrowski (sociologist): all on meta issues except a couple of comments on content - I disagree, it’s a no policy based rationale. and I don’t agree with you K.e.coffman. Sociologist is very much qualified to review a book by another sociologist. - which are of a very poor quality and again generic!

• Aspersions, when substantiated by reasonable evidence, do not remain aspersions. Do note that I did not accuse VM or others of tag-teaming. Even if they have opposed me, they have clearly made some kind of arguments (irrespective of whether I found them making much sense or not). Unlike GCB.

• Diff 5 - 19 Feb

• This IS stonewalling; you try to side-step the content issues and go on about the procedure. As I wrote above, GCB did not make a single concrete comment on content etc. and unlike Piotrus did not even concede that the NPOV tag was largely in error.

That said, all of these diffs (barring #2) concern a single article on a single day about a fortnight ago; I even made amends with the recipient of the only PA a whole week ago. So, ...

• @Callanecc:, to quote: on restrospection, I should not have made that edit. So, no, I am not *defending* anything. Going forward, I plan to be less brusque and keep the tag-teaming accusations etc. for the Arbcom case. TrangaBellam (talk) 06:43, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• Tbh, I have no idea about why Marcelus is proposed to be TBanned. Imposing a 1RR/2RR sanction is usually the way to deal with proclivity to edit-warring! Not tbans unless there are other issues. TrangaBellam (talk) 07:23, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  @Callanecc Also, I am not a fan of making "commitments" when under consideration for sanctions; everyone can claim to see the light at ANI or AE. I have opposed providing them much weight in case of sanctioning others and will apply the same standards for myself. Still, to reiterate, I will reserve the accusations of POV-pushing, tag-teaming etc. for the upcoming ArbCase than any article t/p. Now, you must assess my sincerity in light of my three years at the wiki etc. This is my last comment. TrangaBellam (talk) 09:58, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  Thank you, Gitz666 and Levivich. I agree that staying calm and civil with uncooperative editors is difficult but then, NPA is sacrosanct. Mvbw, should not you have mentioned of your COI with the G&K paper; I have no strong feelings but felt like best practices... TrangaBellam (talk) 13:01, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  @Harry: it's that TB made an edit they could have easily foreseen being disputed is inaccurate. The section, even before I had jumped in, made it clear that the Jews were not involved; so, I did not have any rational reason to doubt that somebody will object to making facts similarly clear in the header itself! In cases where I have genuine reason to doubt that there might be opposition, I always post my issues at the t/p before proceeding to enact them in a few days (1, 2, 3, etc.)

  At the conclusion of the discussion, what I see is that there are five well-respected editors — Gitz666, Coffman, Adoring nanny, Horse Eye's Back, and Ppt91 — supporting me, explicitly on the inclusion of the upfront declaration in the header. The sole support to M came from Mvbw, who claimed that my writing is antisemitic (!); truth be told, even if I had staked in a million minutes into thinking the ramifications of my edit, I could have come across the possibility of such a rebut. Nonetheless, pace NOTVOTE, the consensus is 5-2 in my favor.

  For those of us who have a fair idea of Polish/Jewish relations, my edits to the page were as disputable as claiming that Trump did not win the election. That said, my sole takeaway is that, I should not have hit the revert button at 12:01; esp. since I was already drafting the t/p comment. TrangaBellam (talk) 22:05, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Statement by K.e.coffman

I'm not sure that my voice was ignored, and all of my edits were removed diff is a sufficient reason to open ANI and AE threads. For the preceding ANI, pls see: thread. --K.e.coffman (talk) 21:09, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm concerned that My very best wishes may be misinterpreting the discussion at Talk:Kielce pogrom, in their statement. TrangaBellam's bold edit removed a long-standing dubious theory diff, with the content mixing reliable and unreliable sources to advance a certain POV. I did not see editors suggesting that the section be restored in its entirety. Subsequent discussion also showed that some of the reliable sources were misrepresented: , starting with: With regard to the discussion on Anne Applebaum here above, note that she has been selectively quoted if not misunderstood in the article... --K.e.coffman (talk) 22:47, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Statement by My very best wishes

I noticed that TrangaBellam also made this large-scale removal of sourced text on another page, during an active discussion on article talk page, but without having any sign of WP:Consensus for such removal ,. This text was sourced to publications by Jan T. Gross, Ann Applebaum, Tadeusz Piotrowski and Aleksander Wat, among many others. None of these authors belong to fringe Polish nationalists. The views by authors were not misrepresented on the page, as far as I can see. I think such removal was unhelpful for building WP:Consensus on the page. But this does not rise to the level requiring any sanctions, in my opinion. My very best wishes (talk) 22:27, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

@K.e.coffman. No, I believe the view by Applebaum was not misrepresented by not citing everything she said. If the contributor thought the citation was incomplete , nothing prevented them from expanding this citation to fix the problem. And what bias? "anti-NKVD"? My very best wishes (talk) 23:16, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

• We just had a conversation that might be relevant: . No, I do not think that comments by GizzyCatBella qualify as sealioning. No judgement about others from me. My very best wishes (talk) 19:09, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

• - here TrangaBellam re-includes claim by G&K that Piotrowski "blamed Polish antisemitism upon the Jews" despite valid BLP objections on article talk page . In edit summary TrangaBellam incorrectly said that a consensus is needed for removing this claim (TrangaBellam included this a couple of days ago ). TrangaBellam does it during the standing AE request about them. Now I believe that some action may be needed. My very best wishes (talk) 22:24, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

• I would suggest no more than logged warnings because this whole story is clearly incited by G&K. More damage is coming. My very best wishes (talk) 12:44, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Gitz

Marcelus complains that refused to revert the changes and continue to editing discussed section ingoring my pleas to stop doing so, but everyone who commented on the talk page agreed that TrangaBellam's edits were an improvement (Adoring nanny, K.e.coffman and myself) and no one (apart from Marcelus) reverted them. They complain that TrangaBellam ignored the ongoing discussions and started new ones, but TrangaBellam engaged in extensive discussions with Marcelus and repeatedly asked them to explain their objections: no less than six times (!) from 13:50, 2 March 2023 to 17:55, 2 March 2023. Marcelus didn't want TrangaBellam to remove this text of theirs mentioning Nowicki and Boradyn and lending some credibility to the fringe theory that the Jews perpetrated the Naliboki massacre. Most of Marcelus's editing is aimed at substantiating that theory. See e.g. this edit reverting my revert of their bold edit on Jewish partisans active in the Naliboki area; see their comment on t/p about that fringe theory being an accepted course of events in historical literature rather than some figment of the imagination of a few crazy nationalists from the Canadian Polish Congress .

This is not only a content dispute. First, it's a blatant case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, with Marcelus ignoring the arguments made by other editors. Secondly, Marcelus violated the 3RR (13:50, 2 March 2023; 13:37, 2 March 2023; 12:03, 2 March 2023; 11:56, 2 March 2023‎), engaged in disruptive/tendentious editing (, reverting my reverts of their text on Nowicki and Boradyn; , unexplained removal, not accounted for in the edit summary, of right-wing organisation ... wrongly claimed that), bludgeoned the talk page and was uncivil to me and others. My request to self-revert on their user talk page triggered an extensive discussion to no avail: Undoing your baseless revert is not edit warring (where do you see WP:UNDUE?). I find threatening me with a noticeboard report rather petty . Their casting aspersion on article t/p ( ) was followed by my second thread on their user talk, again to no avail: Spare me the paternalistic tone . Finally, the same behaviour is displayed at History of the Jews in Poland, where Marcelus builds walls of text to demonstrate that two high quality sources (academically focused books) are mistaken: I think I've convincingly shown the source to be wrong on this matter , I don't know why you insist on what is an obvious mistake by Rozenbaum, repeated by Prizel ; plus the usual a bit of incivility .

I believe WP:BOOMERANG is in order and badly needed in the delicate area of Antisemitism in Poland. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 00:51, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

I will spend the luxary of my last 80 available words to advise you not to T-ban TrangaBellam. Albeit perhaps not "intentional", there's indeed a serious distortion in the topic area. Unfortunately there are not many experienced reliable editors actively engaged in remedying this deplorable situation. Harassed by IPs , they must remain professional in long discussions with uncooperative users such as Marcelus and GCB. Staying calm and civil is not easy. A warning from AE could help, a T-ban most defintely not. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 10:56, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Statement by GizzyCatBella

Without remarking on the already carried forward disturbing factors of TrangaBellam's behaviour, I would like to draw the attention of the reviewing administrators to the serious incivility issues..

• personal attacks + aspersions - Piotrus, if you find that there are reliable historians — though I doubt that you understand the term — who admire Glaukopis, feel free to add them. But otherwise, I take a dim view of your shenanigans

and refusal to refactor that personal attack with straight No When asked about the same, my appeal was reverted with the accusations of trolling (see edit summary]

Here is the list of incivility - that is just from the last few days:

• accusation of bad faith
• accusation of bad faith and battleground edit summary
• battleground
• battleground and aspersions
• battleground and taunting
• two personal attacks and aspersions
  • Then they repost the same statement as a response rather than addressing concern IDIDNTHEARTHAT
• WP:OWN
• battleground with intentional condescension
• aspersions See edit summary
• aspersions and battleground
• insinuates other user didn’t read sources
• incivility and battleground in response to a request to refactor personal attacks
• personal attack and accusation of “trolling”
  • warned by an administrator
  • more personal attacks
  • more personal attacks and aspersions even after being warned
  • battleground
• BLP
• canvassing
• battleground
• incivility and condescension
• battleground
• BLP violation
• either a BLP violation or personal attacks against editors (“fringe crackpots”)
• battleground
• battleground, WP:OWN, incivility
• incivility and battleground, discussing editors not content
• aspersions and assuming bad faith
• aspersions, discussing editors not content
• battleground - GizzyCatBella🍁 09:46, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

@El C - I’ll trim some diffs by the end of the day (I’m sorry, I'm busy now) - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:26, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

You can keep your diffs where they are now that they've been discussed but please bear in mind the limits in future and request an extension (beforehand) if necessary. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:33, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

I’m sorry, I’m still busy in real life. I’ll try to address the issues asap. @HJ Mitchell and @Callanecc am I allowed extra words? - GizzyCatBella🍁 03:44, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

@HJ Mitchell and @Callanecc -

Just a quick response meantime. I value your conclusions concerning issues with my latest comments. I believe I was taken aback by TB's approach and I was just trying to be polite. I promise to focus on concrete issues and avoid general comments going forwad. - GizzyCatBella🍁 03:52, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

@HJ Mitchell@Callanecc@Bishonen

I would like to touch on the diff's delivered by Levivich and HEB. The crucial difference between my evidence and theirs is that all my diffs on TB they’re making remarks about editors, not content. In almost all diffs from them, that supposed to show my disruption, I'm discussing content rather than editors. Levivich and HEB are simply reading bad faith into my comments and glossing over the actual personal attacks in TB’s. For example, I asked TB if they had a subscription to GW because I wanted a quote about context, but TB immediately accused me of implying that he was a sock puppet of Icewhiz. But I never did such a thing. (I have to leave the house now for my appointment, but I'll remark more with diff's by the end of the day, please don't close it yet) - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:34, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Horse Eye's Back

I was originally going to abstain from participating here as I feel that the move from ANI to here was inorganic and bludgeoned. That was until I looked through the diffs which GizzyCatBella provided, going through them I was struck by two things: first the vast majority of the diffs don't actually contain the sanctionable behavior described in the link ("battleground and aspersions" etc), the second thing I noticed in the diffs is that GizzyCatBella appears to be sealioning the conversation (some would call it stonewalling, but I think more specifically its sealioning). They have a habit of popping into conversations and asking very direct questions which are tangential to the issue under discussion which most often effectively derail that conversation (GizzyCatBella often abandons the discussion after throwing the wrench). Taken on their own each appears to be civil and the result of GizzyCatBella's curiosity. Taken as a pattern of behavior its extremely disruptive. At Talk:Tadeusz Piotrowski (sociologist) at Talk:Naliboki massacre at Talk:Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust at Talk:The Forgotten Holocaust at Talk:Kielce pogrom and at Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard. On the topic of Marcelus they appear to have reverted three other editors and then pretended to be the victim. Thank you for your consideration. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:43, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Levivich

I was pinged and am involved so take it with a grain of salt, but I think there's a big difference between TB and GCB. TB has never been warned or otherwise sanctioned in this topic area before AFAIK and shouldn't be TBANed as a first sanction, just warned. GCB on the other hand has been sanctioned previously and disruptive lately: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, plus the ones that were add/removed: +1/-1, +2/-2, +3/-3. Levivich (talk) 03:14, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Andreas

I would be in favour of final warnings rather than topic bans at this point. The editors concerned are doing productive work to remedy some of the failings highlighted by the Grabowski/Klein essay (and as problematic as some of the attributions of guilt in that essay are, it also pointed out some real problems with sourcing in this topic area). Let us please not throw out the baby with the bathwater. --Andreas JN466 12:13, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Result concerning TrangaBellam

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• The rules above read (in bold): Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs. I count +1,500 words by Marcelus and and 40+ diffs by GizzyCatBella. Both need to be trimmed accordingly. Also adding to the confusion, Marcelus has split sections for some reason. These need to be merged (at the top). Note: I'm unlikely to follow up on this, so no need to ping me. El_C 11:05, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

• Marcelus, "trim" does not mean add more (!). Also, comment in your own section only; no threaded replies in the section of other participants, please. El_C 12:11, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

• Wrt to my note directly above: the addition came before the removal. Again, one can only comment in their own section, no exceptions. El_C 12:22, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

• The committee has taken note of this situation --In actu (Guerillero) 13:00, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

  But that doesn't mean AE can't or shouldn't handle this. Barkeep49 (talk) 13:04, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

  I'm a party! (I like to party) El_C 13:13, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

• Looking through. No conclusions yet but I'm deeply unimpressed with the level of conversation on that and related talk pages. I would expect all editors here to know to conduct themselves better in a contentious topic. Unfortunately, the only tools admins have at our disposal are blunt ones and I doubt that topic-banning everyone would last longer than it took to appeal. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:06, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
  • Some conclusions:
    • Marcelus has edit warred, including four reverts in just over an hour (though he self-reverted his final one). Marcelus has two previous blocks for edit warring, including a one-month page block which is still active at the time of writing.
    • TrangaBellam (TB) involved herself in the same edit war but as far as I can see only made two reverts. However, wading into a controversial topic area with an edit like, while it is under discussion on the talk page and knowing it's likely to be controversial, is as good as inviting an edit war and is arguably disruptive in itself.
    • Most diffs presented by GizzyCatBella to demonstrate TB's incivility are responses to unhelpful remarks or pointed questions. While that doesn't excuse a combative discussion style, it takes two to tango.
    • GizzyCatBella's (GCB) tendency in the discussion on the talk page is not to comment on the content in dispute. While no one comment gives cause for concern, at best her contributions on the talk page lengthen the discussion without progressing it towards a resolution. This appears to be a pattern with GCB's edits to talk pages. I also find it concerning that GCB repeatedly agitated at ANI for this complaint to be brought here, again without making any substantive comment on the issue.
    • There seems to be a rough consensus in favour of TB's edit, though this wasn't quite the case during the edit war.
  • If there are to be any sanctions here, I'm inclined to sanction all three, though Marcelus's edit warring while pblocked for edit warring would seem to single them out for a more severe sanction. Does anyone want to yell at me and tell me I've missed something right under my nose or completely mis-read something? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:25, 3 March 2023 (UTC) Edited HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:52, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

    I have granted Marcelus another 100 words for replies to comments about him, and another 100 for replies to admins. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:53, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

• I generally agree with your summary HJ Mitchell but I take a more severe look on TrangaBellam's personal attacks and incivility and anyone else engaging in the same conduct. In a controversial and heated topic area, editors are expected to engage with each other with civility, if they can't do that they need to removed from the topic area. Regarding sanctions I'm in favour of topic bans for Marcelus due to the persistent edit warring and TrangaBellam due to the persistent and egregious personal attacks and incivility. I really don't have a major issue with GizzyCatBella's comments given that they are still contributing to the discussion although perhaps a reminder to focus more on the top two levels. With regard to pushing for this to come here rather than stay at ANI, to me that makes sense, an editor can review the situation (or already be familiar with it) and recognise that AE is better equiped to handle a situation that ANI (which I suspect would be most of the time) and then present evidence at AE. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 22:50, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

  @TrangaBellam: Re diffs of personal attacks: #Statement by GizzyCatBella, here are some specifics: . Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 23:50, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

  @TrangaBellam: I'm responding here so others can see, I'm happy to give you an extra 500 words to respond to GCB's diffs. Remember that the purpose in doing so is to refute what GCB says they are not to do anything else. If your response is meh or something similar, you likely don't need to include it. Refute what GCB says it shows and focus on the 5 I pulled above as the ones I found specifically problematic. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 00:28, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• GizzyCatBella: Following TrangaBellam's additions re GCB I agree with HJ Mitchell that there is a pattern in GCB's contributions to talk page discussions generally being meta comments about procedure rather than good faith contributing to the root of the discussion and that these comments prolonging what could otherwise be resolved more quickly, such as at Talk:Glaukopis, and that some comments, like at Talk:Mariusz Bechta, just don't constructively resolve issues. While in isolation an informal reminder (as I mentioned above) would be appropriate, now that I've looked in more detail at GCB's history in this topic area (the TBAN from the World War II history of Poland from 2018-2020) I don't believe that an informal reminder would be appropriate and instead am in favour of a logged warning at a minimum but am leaning more towards reinstating the topic ban on GCB and extending it to the history of the Jews in Poland.

TrangaBellam: I appreciate TrangaBellam's responses above and they certainly help to explain their thinking behind the comments but the responses seem to be focused on either justifying the incivility or suggesting that GCB's behaviour is the same or worse. However I can't see that they have presented adequate mitigation (that is provacation so severe that it explains and excuses them) nor a reflection that they were not acceptable and a committment not to repeat similar behaviour. Therefore I am still in favour of a TBAN likely from World War II history of Poland and the history of the Jews in Poland.

Marcelus: Thinking about a scope for the TBAN possibly anything to do with World War II history of Poland as well as the history of Lithuania and/or Lithuanian nationalism. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:48, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• I'd like to comment on this later today or tomorrow, so I hope it's not closed any time soon. A lot to read! Bishonen | tålk 11:33, 4 March 2023 (UTC). Done, below.
• Marcelus' request appears to concern the editing of Naliboki massacre and its talkpage. I've also read Callanecc's diffs (actually there are four, not five, as one is double-dipped), from which I was led to the history of Glaukopis plus its current talkpage. For Glaukopis, this post by TB was very rude. Really rude. The bad part has been struck out now, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. However, even so, and particularly from viewing the whole section Talk:Glaukopis#Polish version, I don't believe it would be a good idea to limit Tranga Bellam's work in the area. She started a discussion when Piotrus added an {{npov}} tag to the article - something P should have done himself, as his tag edit summary, "just compare this to the pl wiki version of this article" is quite unhelpful. (Yes, P, I understand an ec prevented you. Being ready with a talkpage post when adding a tag will help against that.) Polish Wiki is Polish Wiki, and English Wiki is English wiki — we have little reason to follow them like sheep, and the English article is well-sourced. I don't read Polish, but per Google translate, TB's analysis here sounds convincing, in view of the sources of the English article, none of which are used in the Polish article. Piotrus had better have discussed sourcing right from the start, rather than offer his personal impression that the Polish article "is more neutral, and what we have here reads less neutrally. An article that is overwhelmingly negative is generally not something that WP:NPOV encourages." No, but it doesn't encourage whitewashing either. I'm glad to see, in that talkpage section, that Piotrus appears willing, in the face of evidence, to come round from his preference for the Polish article. But TB certainly did the heavy lifting here, and it's hardly surprising that she got testy in the process. (GitzyCatBella's commentary about the importance of restoring the tag would have made me testy, too. I agree with others above about GCB's unhelpful focus on procedure, and would not object to a sanction, in particular per Horse Eye's Back's statement.) On the showing of the discussion in the section "Polish version", removing TB from any part of this area would be a notable loss IMO. Callanec, I just don't agree that TB has made any "egregious" PAs, excepting only Special:Diff/1140318424.

As for Naliboki massacre, I don't see it as disruptive of TB to "wade in" (quoting Harry). We all wade in all over the place, don't we? Misplaced Pages:Be bold could equally well be called Misplaced Pages:Please wade in. Also, it was TB that opened the "Section title" section on talk, 13 minutes after she edited the article's section title from "Allegations of Jewish involvement in the massacre" to "False Allegations of Jewish perpetrators". This seems to contradict Marcelus' impression that TB simply edited the article and ignored talk. In sum, I believe TB did good, high-level work at both Naliboki massacre and Glaukopis. I'll join with Harry in asking, have I completely missed or mis-read something, since my conclusion concerning TB is so different from several above? I might be somewhat under the influence of the recent ANI discussions here and here, concerning constructive editors losing it over disruption. Those ANI cases were more extreme, admittedly, both concerning the disruption and particularly in the ways AndyTheGrump and Primefac (two Misplaced Pages stalwarts) exploded. Bishonen | tålk 14:10, 4 March 2023 (UTC).

It's not so much the wading in that concerns me, it's that TB made an edit they could have easily foreseen being disputed, then reinstated it after it was reverted, which is what sparked the edit war.I also appreciate GCB's self-reflection and Andreas's comment. I don't think these are three editors so blinded by an agenda that they can't edit the topic area constructively. I do think some sort of action is necessary though, as all three have behaved in ways that are not conducive to building consensus. I would support short time-limited topic bans (maybe a fortnight or a month or a couple of hundred edits) for all three to allow them to regain perspective and for cooler heads to prevail (hopefully!). I would also be happy with an additional, longer ban for Marcelus but limited only to the mainspace, or a 1RR or even 0RR restriction, and an additional restriction or logged warning for GCB regarding talk page conduct. A brief topic ban should be sufficient warning to an editor that something needs to change, and failing to heed that warning would be grounds for potentially much more severe sanctions—but the best case scenario is everyone accepts their slap on the wrist and takes the opportunity to do better in future. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:58, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Also, noting that Marcelus's timeline appears to be correct. TB made the first edit at 11:54 (UTC), Marcelus reverted at 11:56, TB reverted the revert at 12:01, Marcelus revered again at 12:03, then TB opened the talk page discussion at 12:07. The next edit to the article was by Gitz at 12:20 with a compromise, then a large removal of text by TB which sparked more back and forth reverting. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:12, 4 March 2023 (UTC)