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Barbara Schwarz

Barbara Schwarz (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Introduction: Barbara Schwarz has already been the subject of three AfD discussions and I do not lightly nor frivolously bring this 4th AfD. I reviewed the previous three AfDs and feel that they were all presented on the dubious false premise argument that the article was written as an “attack piece”. The first two AfDs were brought by Ms. Schwarz herself and the third was brought by User:Steve Dufour at the express request of Ms. Schwarz. (Please see 1st, 2nd, 3rd.) I say "dubious" "false premise" not because I am doubting the nature of the piece in its various versions but because that is a very dubious argument for deletion. An attack piece would be corrected, not deleted, and various actions in that direction have been taken. No, I am bringing this AfD because I believe, in good faith, that this article does not meet Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons and Misplaced Pages:Notability standards for inclusion. I make arguments for my position below that, I think, were previously either not made or, if touched upon, overshadowed by the nature of the previous discussions; both their focus on a improper argument and the presence of Barbara herself. Prior to bringing this AfD I canvassed queried the interested editors at Talk:Barbara Schwarz#AfD (4th Nomination) and found more than adequate interest, in my opinion, to take this to the community for consideration. Thank you for considering my arguments.

Not Notable: Barbara Schwarz has been noted in the press but is not notable. Barbara Schwarz has been noted in the press to a very limited extent but is not sufficiently notable for inclusion. (edited - ja) Her private search for records for her private reasons gained her mention in a couple of news outlets. That is all. Below is my comment when I solicited comments at Talk:Barbara Schwarz#AfD (4th Nomination):

I am sorry but the more I look at this article, the less it seems to belong here. Her sole "claim" to notability is that she had an article or two written about her as filler for a local paper. Sorry, but lots of people are mentioned in the papers. They are not notable. For instance, I can Google "most parking tickets" most+"parking tickets" and learn a lot about "McMillan Electric Co." reasons for racking up 1,497 ticket worth $74,375 in San Francisco, as covered in some depth by the San Francisco Chronicle (correct & add - ja). Certainly that does not make the firm notable enough for an article here. I could then Google them a bit more and maybe find out that they had some OSHA violations or filed a lawsuit or two. Still does not make them notable. But if a few editors here had a non-notable feud and dislike against "McMillan Electric Co." then they might be able to make an article that almost (but not quite) seems like it belongs here.

Some claim that her Usenet activity somehow contributes to her notability. Her Usenet postings are not notable for either their volume nor their content. There are lots of heavy posters on Usenet and lots of “interesting” material posted. That is not notable in itself and adds little, if anything, to any other notability. In my opinion, the only reason her Usenet activity has any “audience” here is because her postings were in vocal opposition to a small group of “anti-Scientologists” that also happen to be editors here. In my opinion, that very small group has carried their Usenet feud to these pages.

Non-public figure: Ms. Schwarz’ FOIA requests, the basis of any notability claim, were brought as a private person for private reasons. That she got mention in the newspaper for their volume does not automatically make her sufficiently notable for inclusion in this encyclopedia. This is clearly and, at best, a “borderline case”. And Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons#Non-public figures states:

In borderline cases, the rule of thumb should be "do no harm".

Ms. Schwarz clearly feels that she is harmed by the existence of this article and has asked for its removal. In a case of a non-public person such as this one, that carries weight for deletion. Thank you --Justanother 04:43, 11 March 2007 (UTC) (subsequent corrections and additions shown in strikeout and italics.)

• Delete - As nominator --Justanother 04:57, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Comment. This was the longest AfD comment I had ever read... until I read the archived discussions from the first 3 AfDs. With all due respect to you argument, Justanother, might I advise that you try to be a bit more concise in future AfDs. Also, you don't need to vote on your own AfD (although I would recommend signing your comments). Stebbins 05:10, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Thanks for your input. Yes it is long. However, since one user, User:Anynobody, started an RfC on me for thinking about this AfD (see WP:ANI#Admin help needed on User RfC please) and another, User:Tilman, suggested I be blocked and was seconded by User:Orsini, just for talking about it (see the link in the COI section above and subsequent comment), I figured I had better. Sorry if it is a lot to read. --Justanother 05:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy Strong Keep - NOTE, there were Three prior unsuccesfull AFDs. Other editors have stated that a 4th ADF nomination would simply be disruptive. Article has 12 reputable citations, including documents from court cases, the Associated Press, Salt Lake Tribune, the United States Supreme Court, and other reputable sources. Smee 05:11, 11 March 2007 (UTC). Update: - I'm changing my sentiment from "Speedy Keep", to "Strong Keep", I see no reason not to let this intriguing AFD discussion run its course, much as I still agree with other editors that the continued nominations are disruptive. Smee 18:52, 11 March 2007 (UTC).
  • Court case documents are archived on government and legal websites for probably millions of cases and do not speak to notability. --Justanother 05:33, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Court case documents are also considered primary sources (and yes, primary sources exist on every person, notable or not), as are usenet posts. The use of primary sources are generally restricted to specific situations, or to bolster a secondary source which references the primary. I'll have to take a closer look at whether or not the primary sources are being used properly. Also, the fact that this is a fourth AfD is irrelevant. Consensus changes, as does the criteria and arguments used in a nomination. Crockspot 19:01, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
      • I should also point out Jimbo's comments regarding Newsgroup postings, original research, and BLPs, which is directly relatable to this article. - Crockspot 19:24, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy Close. I don't see what could possibly be said that was not said in the past 3 nominations. The article is extensively referenced; notability doesn't really seem to be an issue. Stebbins 05:18, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
  • The past 3 nominations were based on a faulty premise. --Justanother 05:21, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Though I'm—as of now—undecided, I'm strongly opposed to speedily keeping it. Please remember that consensus is not immutable, and that it can change amongst the community.--<fontcolor="#007BA7">TBCΦtalk? 05:34, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that WP:CCC is not immutable, when the community is divided more or less evenly on several AfDs i could see whre WP:CCC is probably of no help. In this case, the previous three AfDs were kept by a pretty solid majority. Please take a moment to look them over before deciding your vote at Talk:Barbara Schwarz. Thanks for your time in participating and commenting. Anynobody 06:30, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

• Delete Just because an article is well sourced doesn't mean that the article in question is notable. Filling out thousands of FOIA requests is far from notable. WP doesn't host a bio of every person who is the worlds most pierced man, or the person who threw the most messages in a bottle into the ocean, or the laywer who has won the most cases. Cman 05:38, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy Keep per Zahakiel, Antaeus Feldspar, V, and Tilman. Orsini 08:07, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
  • You might want to give a reason, otherwise the closing admin will ignore it. TJ Spyke 07:34, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Thank you TJ Spyke; done. Orsini 08:07, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - Is anybody going to care in 5 years to read this article? Requesting a ton of documents does not make her noteworthy in its own. Newsworthy != noteworthy, and also per Cman --Auto 06:00, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep - This meets all the policy requirements. The nomination says that although Babs is noted in the press, she is not notable. However, WP:N states that "A topic is notable if it has been the subject of secondary sources", as well as "Notability is not synonymous with "fame" or "importance". It is not measured by Misplaced Pages editors' own subjective judgements. Notability is generally permanent." Babs has been the subject of numerous secondary sources. As for the "do no harm" clause... I think that would really be a stretch to apply it to this case. There are numerous people who have articles here that haven't been deleted for that reason. In fact, as I recall, the Daniel Brandt article was kept many times by an overwhelming majority, with the impetus for deletion being rooted in that "do no harm" clause. I'm not sure there's any policy here that supports deletion. .V. 06:09, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep - Justanother you are violating the policy of WP:CONSENSUS. Anynobody 06:21, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. How so? WP:CONSENSUS specifically states that consensus can change.--TBCΦtalk? 06:29, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

(I actually commented under your comment) Because the three previous AfD votes in this case were strongly rejected. This falls under this part of CCC Anynobody 06:43, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

• Keep since the AfD contains no new arguments, and suggest a block for Justanother, who is wasting time by raising issues that have been discussed so many times already, and for rewarming th CoI allegation. --Tilman 06:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

No one is requiring you to waste your time with it. Steve Dufour 07:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Respectfully, Justanother is requiring Tilman to be here to support an article he feels notable. Since he feels that way about it, I can appreciate why he might feel this is a waste of his time since he has voted in past nominations. Just as I imagine you must look at the previous AfDs as a waste of time Steve Dufour, since the article was not deleted. Anynobody 08:09, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't consider my efforts to defend someone from unfair attacks and to try to improve WP a waste of time no matter how the vote on this nomination goes. Thanks for thinking of me. Steve Dufour 19:49, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

• Delete Barbara is not the kind of notable person that Misplaced Pages's policies say should be the subject of an article. Steve Dufour 07:18, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep - The nominator states, "Barbara Schwarz has been noted in the press but is not notable." I contend that this is the definition of notability, the first words of said policy being, "Notable is defined as 'worthy of being noted' or 'attracting notice.' I do not see the COI issue having any bearing on the current state of the article, nor do I believe that a subject's wishes should have any bearing on whether or not an encyclopedia contains verifiable information on the subject; for a detailed discussion of this issue, see this page. In any event, the article is fully policy-compliant, and there is therefore no reason to remove an article that a number of editors have taken the time to create, update and improve. ◄Zahakiel► 07:20, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Thank you for your input. Yes, that was very clumsy wording on my part. --Justanother 07:31, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete I'm sorry, but just filing a ton of FOIA requests and unsucessful lawsuits is not notable. Also, this AFD does not qualify for a speedy keep. TJ Spyke 07:34, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep per Zahakiel's well-stated reasoning and per the fact that no new reasoning (besides the allegations of COI) has been presented in this AfD that wasn't already examined by the previous three AfDs. -- Antaeus Feldspar 07:52, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as there does not seem to be anything really encyclopedic to say about the subject. Most of the article seems to be just "heh, heh, heh, lookit all the quaint delusions this lady harbors", which is not the main content any respectable encyclopedia ought to have in a biographical article. This might be relevant background material if there were any real encyclopedic content in the foreground, but I see none - as others have commented, the record for most FOIA requests filed just doesn't cut it. As for those who want the article to be kept simply because it is sourced, Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Just because something can be sourced as fact does not automatically make it belong in an encyclopedia. –Henning Makholm 07:59, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep In addition to the "Keep" points outlined above, the subject remains a byword within U.S. government information circles (and in the field of information-handling more generally) in relation to the Freedom of Information Act. The aspects of the article that have proved the most contentious over time (e.g., content on her personal beliefs and her relationship to Scientology) seem to me appropriate for inclusion (provided that they are, as they seem to be currently, appropriately sourced and NPOV), if for no other reason than that they are useful in fully understanding the FOIA issues raised by her actions. The subject has chosen to become, to whatever extent, a public figure, through involvement in public official processes, the press, and the Internet; a byproduct of doing so, in this day and age, is the possibility of being the subject of a WP article. Robertissimo 08:25, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. The article seems to fulfil WP:BIO (albeit not easily) and has no obvious issues with respect to policy. The autobiographical material could be trimmed a bit, but other than that, I find the nomination and especially the part on WP:BLP problems very unconvincing. —xyzzy_n 13:46, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete An embarrassment to Misplaced Pages. It has proved impossible to maintain the article appropriately. Whatever her supposed notability, Barbara Schwarz is not a public figure. Her privacy should be be respected. Fred Bauder 15:29, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Only reason for existence is to denigrate Scientologists and other living people. Non-notable. --Tbeatty 15:42, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Passes our thresholds for notability, and shouldn't be deleted just for being controversial to some (is every apparently once-controversial article going to be afd'd now in some COI manner...? Brandt, essjay, this?). passes WP:BIO, WP:N, etc., and is about someone involved in Supreme Court action. Keep. - Denny 15:54, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep A notable person deserving an article. --MZMcBride 16:53, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Delete and salt page - Per nomination. The subject is not particularly notable, she feels she is harmed by the article (and I agree), and the article has been a trouble spot since day one. The spirit of WP:BLP calls for us to delete the article. - Crockspot 17:59, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete plainly...not notable...price of admission isn't worth it.--MONGO 18:12, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep. A record number of FOIA requests = a record amount of tax money wasted on fruitless FOIA requests. Scientology or no Scientology, delusions or no delusions, a record abuse of the FOIA and waste of tax dollars is notable. There are also plenty of sources. She has no say in the matter; she has made her beliefs extremely public and now wants Misplaced Pages not to refer to them, which is not her decision.--Parsleyjones 18:13, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment she is not a celebrity. She is not a politician. She is not royalty. She is not an accomplished author. She is not a mass murderer. She is not an athlete. She is a citizen of the United States that had her 15 minutes of fame filling out those FOIA back in the 80's. Cman 18:40, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment She is not a citizen of the United States. She is citizen of Germany that is illegally living in the United States. I agree that Ms. Schwarz is not the most famous person on Misplaced Pages, but neither is Star Wars Kid. We cover lots of minor characters on Earth that we deem notable. It is also important to note that non-notable people don't typically attract hundreds of editors to research and write about them. Vivaldi (talk) 19:21, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. Notariety alone makes her notable, and it's well covered. No autobiographical edits at the beginning. If she's doing this sort of thing, well, she knew the job was dangerous when she took it. --Dennisthe2 18:56, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment have you ever heard of the term, "15 minutes of fame"? That's all she equates to. If I were to go out and pay all my speeding tickets in 2 dollar bills, would that make me notable for WP? No, it wouldn't. Sure, I will get my 15 minutes of fame, but that would be my only notable accomplishment. This is the same thing. The only thing she is notable is for her FOIA requests. Cman 19:06, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. Her notability is plenty established. Former cult leader, FOIA record setter, USENET celebrity, frivolous lawsuit filer. Even the Supreme Court of the United States has considered her and made her one of the only people permanently barred from the certiorari process. She is not a private figure. She voluntarily gave up that status when she became president of Church of Scientology in Germany and then again when she volunteered to be interviewed by the Salt Lake City Tribune. Her story was put on the AP Wire and spread through newspapers across the country. People that talk to reporters knowing their story will be published in a paper do not subsequently have the right to claim the details in that story are a private affair. The FOIA requests were not "in the late 80's" as user Cman suggests above. She has been making numerous FOIA requests even in this decade. Also it is inappropriate for Cman to threaten to add articles to Misplaced Pages that he deems unworthy just to make a WP:POINT. Vivaldi (talk) 19:08, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment I am concerned over this posting, on Jimbo's talk page:

Hello Jimbo. I thought you might want to weigh in on Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Barbara Schwarz (4th nomination). I have already invoked your comments about newsgroup postings, OR, etc. related to your own article, but I thought you would want to comment directly. This article has been troublesome from inception, and isn't something that belongs on Misplaced Pages, IMHO. - Crockspot 19:37, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Because there are so many users with Jimbo's page on their watchlist, a comment like this could be seen as canvassing. Especially "This article has been troublesome from inception, and isn't something that belongs on Misplaced Pages". Mr.Z-mantalk¢Review! 19:48, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

You left off the "IMHO" from my quote. Since I had already invoked a diff of Jimbo's comments in a reply above, I thought he should be afforded the opportunity to speak directly to this situation. It was my opinion that his previous comments related directly to this article, but I didn't want to speak for him. I suspect he would agree with me, but I could be wrong. And what is wrong with getting as many opinions as possible? The outcome of this AfD does not affect me one bit, as long as the decision is made by a truly broad consensus. - Crockspot 20:11, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment - Crockspot, please consider revising your comment on Jimbo's page to change it to a simple invitation to take a look without including any opinion or characterization of the article or this AfD. Thanks. Stricken, see my comments below. --Justanother 20:07, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Done, albeit reluctantly. - Crockspot 20:18, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I am striking the comment, please do as you see fit. --Justanother 20:20, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment I don't see any problem with letting Jimbo know about it. If people are watching his talk page they should be mature enough to make up their own minds about it and not believe something just because Crockspot said it. On the other hand, Cman's threat was out of line. Steve Dufour 19:53, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

• Comment I apollogize for my harsh words. I think that I should have said something a little bit different. I am fixing it right now to make it less harsh. Cman 19:58, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment Thanks. Your threat would not have been very effective anyway. No one would notice the difference from the normal WP situation. :-) Steve Dufour 20:04, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

• Keep per many reasons, but I think Vivaldi summed them up for me the best. (Oh, and I came here because I saw the post on Jimbo's page, so maybe the canvassing aspect is true, but maybe it's not having the intended effect.) —Doug Bell  20:01, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - Jimbo is interested in BLP issues and it is appropriate that a mention be made on his talk page. I have asked Crockspot above to modify the message. Thank you for your input. --Justanother 20:09, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment - Upon further reflection, Crockspot's communication to another single editor, be it Jimbo or whomever, is his own business, and, as you say, there in no guarantee of what the net effect might be. So Crockspot, I apologize if I was meddlesome, please do as you see fit. --Justanother 20:16, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Disclosure - I should probably disclose that before I left Jimbo a note, I also left a note on Morton Devonshire's talk page, stating specifically that I was doing so because I knew that a lot of people watch Morty's page. If you want to call that canvassing, then fair enough. I happen to think that the reason this article was kept in the previous three AfD's is because the "votes" were overwhelmed by a minority opinion specifically interested in keeping this article. More/wider opinions are better, whatever they may be. I don't see anything wrong with letting a wider audience know about an AfD, nor do I see anything wrong with including my opinion about in in user talk space. If this is a violation, please let me know and I will modify my behavior in the future. - Crockspot 20:28, 11 March 2007 (UTC)Clarification - Just to clarify, I did not leave Jimbo the note for the same reason I left Morty one. I truly wanted Jimbo's thoughts on this directly. - Crockspot 20:31, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - I think canvassing is WP:CANVASSING and you cannot worry about who watches whose talk pages. That would make any communication at all subject to a charge of canvassing and that is ridiculous. So I see no problem with you commnuicating with a limited number of people about this AfD, based on my read of the policy. --Justanother 20:33, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

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