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Revision as of 11:07, 17 March 2023 editCinadon36 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users12,658 edits →A couple more comments: ReplyTag: Reply← Previous edit Revision as of 11:09, 17 March 2023 edit undoCinadon36 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users12,658 edits →A couple more comments: ReplyTag: ReplyNext edit →
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*:Well to be clear, if the source uses that quote, then it's fine. We can just say "Davies points to Rousseau..." etc etc. ] ''(]·])'' 13:28, 16 March 2023 (UTC) *:Well to be clear, if the source uses that quote, then it's fine. We can just say "Davies points to Rousseau..." etc etc. ] ''(]·])'' 13:28, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
*::Ok, so I have made this edit . ]] 11:07, 17 March 2023 (UTC) *::Ok, so I have made this edit . ]] 11:07, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
*:::I do not have time for the rest, I will have a look on Monday. ]] 11:09, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

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Humanism And Religion Bias

I Removed this Section. I did so because it Reads like a Promotion of Humanism not an Encyclopedia Article about Humanism. It did not even Discuss Humanisms Relationship to Religion, but Rather simply listed Popular Arguments used to Justify rejection Religion in Favour of Humanism, and Cites Victor Stenger and other Militant Atheist Sources. What does saying The Argument From Aesthetics doesn't Convince People have to do with Explaining what Humanism is?

I quote the Part I deleted below. Then I Will respond. 

"Humanism and religion

Humanism is a naturalistic philosophy—it rejects gods, angels, immortal souls, and all supernatural phenomena. The universe is natural and can be studied by science. While opposition to the various forms of theism might come from many philosophical or historical domains, the most convincing argument in terms of public opinion is naturalism."

According to Who? And Why should it matter what the most Convincing Argument in Terms of Public Opinion is? This sounds more like a Promotion of Humanism and Why it should Be Chosen instead of Religion. Of Course, Humanism is not a Religion. Saying that is Offensive and, Apparently, is Me using My Own Reasoning. But, this is simply reporting a Fact?

Also, Why is The Article Conflating Theism to Religion? And Why is it Presenting Theism, and thus Religion, which are presented as Synonymous, as Opposite Naturalism as if Naturalism is an Alternative to Theism? One can be a Naturalist and still be a Theist.

Misplaced Pages has an Admittedly Poor Article on Naturalistic Theism, and other Views such as Process Theology. Not all Theism is Supernatural.

Then there's this Gem. 

"Historical arguments fail to convince the public because historical research is often open to interpretation."

The Public is not Overwhelmingly Humanist. I also Fail to see what "Convincing The Public" has to do with what Humanism is or its relationship to Religion. This, again, seems like a Promotional Advertisement for Humanism, not an Article about Humanism. 

"For similar reasons, large parts of the population are unconvinced by arguments based on aesthetics (classical literature touches human souls more than holy scriptures)"

Isn't it Purely Subjective to say Classical Literature Touches Human Souls more than Holy Scriptures? Why is this Passed off as a Fact? 

"or ethics (religion's history on slavery, gay rights, racism)."

Religion has No History. Religion is a Category, not this One thing that Actually Exists. And Honestly, Why is This Article saying Religion has a History of Slavery, Gay Rights, and Racism? How does that Explain the Relationship between Humeanism and Religion? It seems it is saying The Public rejects Religion due to its Support for Slavery,for its Opposition to Gay Rights, and for its History of Racism which is Polemic and incredibly Biased.

Especially given it makes No Effort to Counterbalance by either Noting "Religion" also has a History of Opposing Slavery, and how The Abolition Movement was Started by Christians, or how Racism was also Opposed by Various Religious Groups. Even Gay Rights have been Supported by Various Religious Groups, including Christian Ones. And this is Playing by the Imposed Rules of Viewing Humanism as "Not being Religious".

This Article Acts as if religion Promotes these bad Things and Humanism,which is the Opposite of Religion, rejects them.

Which also Ignores the History of Atheistic Philosophy, Including Humanism, and how Slavery and Racism have been Advocated for by Atheistic Groups that serve as Precursors to Modern Humanism. Eugenics, for example, was Promoted by Secularist and Humanist Organizations, and so was Scientific Racialist Theories. Gay Rights were even Opposed by them Historically.

The Article is simply Ignoring this. All of which can be discovered in the Articles on Eugenics ot looking up Articles on Eugenicists. 

"Driven by the successes of science and technology, naturalistic arguments gain prominence in public opinion."

This is not true. Humanism is not Synonymous with Science, nor is Religion opposed to Science, and Naturalism is neither the Antithesis of Religion nor is it necessarily Tied to Scientific or technological Advancement. 

"On the other hand, traditional arguments for the existence of God are falling short."

This is not the Other Hand. Its the same Hand. And Why is Misplaced Pages saying Traditional Arguments for The Existence of God are falling apart? Is that a neutral Assessment? 

"The ontological argument (roughly, that God exists because we can think of him)"

The Ontological Argument is not 'God exists because We can Think of Him'. 

"lacks empirical evidence, and seemingly lacks understanding of reality."

This is what I mean. This is a Polemic, not an Article. It is an Effort to get the Reader to Reject the Ontological Argument and other Arguments for the Existence of God. That is not Explaining in a Neutral and Unbiased Manner Humanism and its relationship to Religion. 

"The cosmological argument (God as the necessary first cause) also doesn't prove God's existence since other causes, or prime movers (physical entities, mass, energy, or something else) might have been the cause of the universe."

Is this Article about Humanism? or Why Theism is wrong and We should all be Atheists? 

"The teleological argument (or argument from design) has been eliminated by Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection."

Has it? Because the Last time I checked, One can Believe in evolution and Still Think The Argument By design if Valid. I'd also like to Cite the Existence of Creationists today. I am not a Creationist. I am however Annoyed by this Article's Favouratism. 

"However, the failure of rational arguments to prove God's existence does not prove God's non-existence."

This is as Close to Unbiased as it gets. But the Attacks on Theism and the Dismissal of Arguments for God's Existence don;t show there to be a Failure of Rational Aruments, as they are Strawman version of them. 

"A more popular cause of religious belief is personal experience—which is also problematic, because personal experiences are vague and subject to interpretation, and wishful thinking might also lead the way to desired conclusions."

There is No Basis for saying this is Popular or to Care. Popularity is not Really the Issue here. And just because Richard Normal or some other Humanist find something Problematic doesn't mean it is. This is an Opinion, not a Fact. 

"While humanism was founded as antithetic to religious establishments,"

This is actually a Lie. When Humanism was Founded, it called itself a Religion. And set up its own Religious Establishments. The Humanist Manifesto 1933 makes this Very Clear and I have Quoted it.

Indeed, the Distinction between The Sacred and The Secular cannot be Maintained. 

"religious views are not totally incompatible with humanism"

The Views of Humanism are Religious. 

"Many deists, for example (such as Mary Wollstonecraft, Voltaire, Thomas Paine), had views resonating with a humanistic approach to life—since (for deists)"

Which is an Effort to Link them to Humanism. But, they were not Humanists. They Lived before Humanism came to be.

Also, Religious does not mean beleives a god Exists. That is Theism. Theism and religion are not Synonyms. 

"God does not interfere with our daily life or give commands, they can espouse a humanistic perspective."

This does not Really mean Anything. its an effort to Win People over to Humanism by saying You can Believe in God if You Must, just do not believe in an Interventionist God. This is a Typical Secularist Argument, but it is Shallow. They call Theism a belief in an Interventionist God, and posit Deism as Distinct from Theism. Its not. Really Deism is a form of Theism. 

"Also, many humanists have an anthropological interest in religions—how they evolved, matured, affect morality, and other features of the human condition.""

Which is not Relevant to explaining what Humanism is and its relationship to Religion.

This Section is as I said, a Polemic. it is not Unbiased.— Preceding unsigned comment added by SKWills (talk • contribs)

Hi. Thanks for contribution. Pls sign yr comments. This section is covered in detail in books on humanism. Therefor it does have a place in the article. More, later today ot tomorrow.Cinadon36 05:30, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

All the Books on Humanism are By Humanists and were Written to Convert You to Humanism. The Books By A C Grayling or Fowler or Davies are Purely Humanist Books Written to promote the Humanist Religion. And it is a Religion.
I mean, Come on, am i supposed to Think even the Critics of Humanism Think Humanists Stand for Individual Eights and Freedom? Am I really supposed to Think that that Crack about how Xenophobia, Bigoty, and Animal Abuse being Present in Christianity was in Any Way Beneficial in explaining Humanism and is not just a Cheap Attack on Christians? Am i supposed to Pretend All Conservatives want to promote tradition for traditions Sake and Christian Values? These aren't Facts, and I simply do not Care what Humanist books said about the Critisism of Humanism. you did not go to Any Actual Critic of Humanism to get the Critisim of Humanism. you went to Humanist books to get the Criticism of Humanism.
I am not going to pretend Humanism is Centuries old, and goes back to Greek Philosophy. Nor am i going to pretend The Religion of Humanist was not very Inflectional wen We;d not even Have Secular Humanism today if not for The Religion of Humanity. I am not going to pretend Kant was a Rationalist who supported Humanist Values. I am Certainly not going to pretend Individualism and Reason are Specifically Humanist Values so Anyone who Promoted them was a Humanist. Or that Christian Humanism began in The Middle Ages.
I also won't Pretend Atheism is a Byproduct of Reason Embracing Science. Do You even Know how Insulting that is? You are basically slaying if You believe in God You are not Rational and Reject Science. And since You equate Religion to Theism, Anyone Who is Religious is Irrational. Do You Really Think that comes off as Nonbiased?
We have to Define Religion the way YOU chose to define it. we have to Accept that Humanists are Rational. We have to Accept that Humanism is not a Religion. Ae have to Accept that Religion is Irrational. We have to pretend Humanism is all about Freedom and Individual Rights. Ae have to pretend Conservatives reject Individual Rights.
None of that I am willing to do.
This Article even says Immanuel Kant advocated for Rationalism. Kant Write A Critique of Pure Reason where He rejected Rationalism. And yet because a Humanist Book by Fowler or Davies said He Promoted Rationalism it has to Remain in this Article and Accepted as True?
Rights is not an Article on Humanism, it is a Pamphlet Trying to get You to Convert to Humanism, and on the Side Promotes Hatred and rejection of Christianity and to a Degree Islam.
This Article is a Bad Joke. You just Blindly Believe without Evidence whatever Humanist Books Tell You about Humanism, and even Derive the Criticism Section from Humanist Books.
That is Horrifically Biased and One Sided.
its like if The Article on Christianity used Exclusively Chick Tracts as a Source.

SKWills (talk) 08:45, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

All books are RS. You raised a lot of issues. Can you point to a book you think it should be excluded? All those arguments, you say are irrelevant to humanism, they are included in those reliable books. Cinadon36 11:03, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi, Content aside, there are many grammatical issues in the article which could do with being corrected. I would like to be able to edit for this reason. Eadavies (talk) 17:09, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Hi there @Eadavies, you are more than welcome to edit the article. As you can see from the bottom of this page, I'm also doing a top-to-bottom copyedit right now. However, I welcome other contributions. Alyo (chat·edits) 17:16, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

You could also add "Humanistic Judaism": https://en.wikipedia.org/Humanistic_Judaism — Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.18.242.137 (talk) 15:40, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your input, that is a valid example but I think we should include prominent examples when mentioned in RS discussing Humanism. Cinadon36 17:53, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

WP:WIKIVOICE/WP:NOTESSAY issues

So I came across this article as part of the GOCE drive, and it's gonna need significant work before it is ready for a copyedit or any sort of GAN. Basically, massive parts of the article are inappropriately written in wikivoice and I have concerns that the article skews extremely positive in its coverage of humanism. I appreciate the source work that @Cinadon36 has done here (this was the version before they began rewriting the article) but this reads like an essay, rather than a Misplaced Pages article:

  • Lead
    • Modern day humanism stands for human freedom, autonomy, and progress. -- if this was a product, I'd immediately remove this as advertising
    • While very few people identify as humanists, many more rely on logic and science, not holy scriptures, to build up their worldview and make daily decisions about their lives -- inappropriate dig at religion
  • Themes
    • Humanism is a naturalistic philosophy—it rejects gods, angels, immortal souls, and all supernatural phenomena. The universe is natural and can be studied by science. -- inappropriate wikivoice in second sentence
    • On the other hand, traditional arguments for the existence of God are falling short. The ontological argument (roughly, that God exists because we can think of him) lacks empirical evidence, and seemingly lacks understanding of reality. -- wildly inappropriate wikivoice
    • The teleological argument (or argument from design) has been eliminated by Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection. -- see above
    • A more popular cause of religious belief is personal experience—which is also problematic, because personal experiences are vague and subject to interpretation, and wishful thinking might also lead the way to desired conclusions. -- see above
    • Humanism is at odds with conservatism, which relies on long‐standing traditions, and tries to preserve Christian values: elements such as xenophobia, bigotry, and animal cruelty are sometimes also part of Christian values. -- NPOV
  • Geographies of humanism
    • In the Analects of Confucius, humanist features are apparent; respectfulness, reasonableness, kindness, and enthusiasm for learning. -- NPOV, inappropriate wikivoice
    • Black communities experiencing injustice leaned towards atheism in the 20th Century. -- really gonna need a source for that

Basically, this article reads like a endorsement of humanism, rather than encyclopedic coverage of a philosophy. Every one of the sentences I just listed--and many more I didn't--needs to be attributed to a source and made clear that this is the humanist position, not an objective fact. I'm leaving this message so that Cinadon, who hopefully has most of these sources still, can work on attribution. If not though I would be removing significant chunks of this article wholesale. Alyo (chat·edits) 23:35, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

@SKWills was largely correct above in their comments, despite the bad way they went about it. Alyo (chat·edits) 23:41, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
Thanks Alyo for your input. I get that you do not like some parts, we can discuss them. Some issues that you point out, were already concerns of mine; since I am pro-humanism, I was aware that something like that might occur. So, most of those points you make, I feel are not a real issue per WP:YESPOV. I will try to address them separately, each one in a new sub-section. It might take a while. Cinadon36 04:17, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you think WP:YESPOV/WP:WIKIVOICE means, but it does not mean that the points I make are not a real issue. Look at the example in the first bullet of that section: an article should not state that "genocide is an evil action" but may state that "genocide has been described by John So-and-so as the epitome of human evil." You and I most certainly agree that genocide is evil, but we still cannot say "genocide is evil" in wikivoice. Rather, we must attribute that opinion to someone. That's what needs to happen here. This edit is an example of what I'm saying needs to happen throughout the entire article. Additionally, I hope you realize that I only pulled out a few examples to make my point. Alyo (chat·edits) 14:25, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply. Well, I feel you do have a valid point but I am not sure to what extend you are right. It is plain wrong to make assertations on badness or goodness, as WikiVoice. If I have done so, I will attribute the claim. But in cases of widespread acceptance of a fact, (ie that traditional arguments arent popular any more) I wont. It is a different issue. Cinadon36 14:36, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
For example, if A, B, and C (all RS) say that the sky is blue, (being blue is a matter of perception), then we can say that "The sky is blue", while "According to A, B and C, the sky is blue" would be inappropriate. Cinadon36 14:49, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
It's not a different issue. You, probably because of your familiarity with humanist literature, believe that those statements are objective facts. They are not. I'm putting this very plainly--in almost every sentence of this article, and particularly those dealing with the values of humanism, the statements need to be attributed to the source. I mean heck, I don't even understand how you're making the argument that "traditional arguments aren't popular" when it seems very clear to me that the sources are only saying that in the context of academic/theological justifications for religion. It is very obvious that at a more general level, traditional arguments for god are incredibly popular, based on the sheer number of people still in organized religion.
It also worries me that you're equating religious arguments with the sky being blue. If you can't see how those are different then I'm very worried about your ability to edit this article fairly in the future. As far as wikipedia is concerned, almost nothing in this article is an accepted fact at the same level of the sky being blue. Alyo (chat·edits) 14:52, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
I am also worried on you having an opinion without reading the sources and be so willingly to start deleting. Article should reflect sources and it does. Sources are reliable. There are plenty of authors stating that traditional arguments are failing. Instead of lecturing, why wont you find a couple of Sources (on the topic) that state otherwise? Cinadon36 14:57, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
There are plenty of authors stating that traditional arguments are failing -- then say that those authors said that. You cannot just say their conclusion. I don't need to read the sources to know that the content in the article is inappropriate. Please, read WP:WIKIVOICE and then explain to me how the policy--not the sources--allows you to say "traditional arguments for the existence of God are falling short". Alyo (chat·edits) 15:02, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
Well, when lots of reliable authors saying p and no one is saying not-p, then we can say p in wikivoice. Cinadon36 15:06, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Themes

Naturalism

  • Naturalism. I have made this edit (Humanism is a naturalistic philosophy—it rejects gods, angels, immortal souls, and all supernatural phenomena: for humanism, the universe is natural and can be studied by science, to watering the claim down. Hope now it is ok. Cinadon36 06:57, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Traditional arguments

Well, I am not quite sure were your objection is. Lets say it is in the first sentence. Traditional arguments of religion, are not popular these times.(That 's why they are called traditional). Per source: I shall look first, very briefly, at the traditional classic arguments for the existence of a god. There is an enormous literature dealing with them, and what I have to say will be perfunctory and will not add anything new, but it is an integral part of my case for humanism and I need to say it. Many modern religious believers and many theologians tend to dismiss these traditional arguments. Of course, they say, no one now relies on them; it is accepted that religious belief cannot be based simply on rational argument, and has to be understood in quite different terms. Per source, p26, cited. (Norman, On Humanism). As far as I remember, reading elsewhere (The Cambridge Companion on Atheism), theistic arguments have moved. So I do think, the statement in the article reflects RS. Maybe should be reworded? What about this --->Traditional arguments are...not convincing(?)- Please feel free to make suggestions (of course you are more than welcomed to edit the article directly). Cinadon36 07:25, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

  • Here, prof Stephen Law, at Humanism, a very short introduction by OUP , writes something similar (albeit, not the same). It is the Conclusion at Chapter 2 "Arguments for the existence of God". "Conclusion In this chapter, we have looked at examples of two kinds of argument widely considered to provide belief in God with a fair degree of rational support: cosmological arguments and arguments from design. On closer examination, the arguments examined turned out to support, at the very most, only the claim that there exists some sort of intelligence, or perhaps a necessarily-existing-something-or-other, behind the universe (and I believe we have seen good reason to suppose they fail to achieve even this much). It is, in each case, on the basis of the argument presented, a huge and unjustified further leap to the conclusion that this intelligence is, say, the God of traditional monotheism" Cinadon36 10:24, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
  • There it is, The Cambridge Companion to Atheism by Michael Martin, Publisher:Cambridge University Press , there is the chapter titled 5 - The Failure of Classical Theistic Arguments, authored by Richard M. Gale . You can have a look what it says or how it goes on. In any case, I think the first sentence is supported strongly by bibliography but I wouldnt mind toning it down somehow. As I said earlier, feel free to make suggestions or edit the article. Cinadon36 10:38, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Before I start editing the article and wholesale deleting passages because I don't have access to sources, I'm trying to help you understand what the issue is. On the other hand, traditional arguments for the existence of God are falling short is a statement of fact made in wikivoice. That's not acceptable. However, if you say Influential humanists such as Stephen Law and Richard Gale argue that traditional arguments for the existence of God fall short, that's completely fine. Do you see the difference? Alyo (chat·edits) 14:33, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

I hope you wont start deleting the article, without having knowledge of the sources. How can anyone do such a thing? In any case, I can provide you with the source, and edit the article as you wish- I wont mind. Now on your suggestion, we shouldnt make attribution if there is general acceptance of a statement, but I wont mind your wording, even though I prefer mine. Traditional arguments have failed, but there are ...lets say new ones (that are more complex tbh). Final point: Please ask for sources, and you shall have them. Then edit. Dont delete just because it doesnt sound right. Cinadon36 14:40, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
I'm going to be honest, I don't have the time to read dozens of books and articles about humanism in order to double-check your additions. I'm hoping you will do that, both as someone who is clearly passionate about the topic and also has the sources. If not, I would have to advocate for a return of the page to this, before you started editing. Again, all I'm asking is that the statements about the values of humanism be attributed to the author. If that just means for now you saying "According to X" at the beginning of each sentence, that would be a great start. Alyo (chat·edits) 14:55, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
Look, you do not have time to read the sources but you want to backroll the entire article? That doesnt sound correct. Cinadon36 14:58, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
The first option takes days/weeks, the other takes two seconds. Yes, that's correct. Alyo (chat·edits) 15:00, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
The second option is totally out of discussion. The previous article had many problems. It sounds as I threat: if you do not bow to what I say, I will wipe out the entire work you have done. This version is much better (it needs copy/editing), maybe needs attribution in some points, and I will be happy to work with you to fix it. But in order to work on this issue, you have to read the sources. Cinadon36 15:02, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
Then please start attributing the claims. You added them--you have the burden to make sure they are correct and follow wikipedia policy. Otherwise I have no other choice but to remove some of your additions. I simply don't have the time to read Humanism#Sources. Alyo (chat·edits) 15:05, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
Ok, I will but it might take some time. Give me a week. Here is a deal: If I do a good job, agree to do the copy/editing? If you do not like it, roll it back. Cinadon36 15:08, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
Or two weeks. Cinadon36 15:08, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
Or we can do it section by section. That would be better. Cinadon36 15:10, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
Of course, I'm happy to wait. I just want to make sure you understand what the issue is. Alyo (chat·edits) 15:10, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
I get what your issue is, I just do not agree entirly on your perspective. I think we can employ wikivoice making statements in a more liberal way than you say/want (see my arguments above). In any case, I will edit the article having in mind your objection(s). I think the article will benefit from your critical stance. Lets see. Cinadon36 15:14, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
If you want a second (third?) opinion, you're welcome to ask at WP:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard. Alyo (chat·edits) 15:18, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
Maybe I will do it later, but to tell you the truth, since we have reached an agreement on how to go forward, since I have so much work to do, and since noticeboards are for users who cant find a solution at the talk page of the article, I hesitate. Cinadon36 15:23, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Towards a new version

Bravo to Cinadon36 for all of their work here. I came to the page looking (with little optimism) for a section on Chinese philosophy and was happy to find it. The content on Confucianism seems all correct and to the point, and it is nice that Mencius is mentioned, but its worth looking into Neo-Confucianism in regards to Humanism as well. I've made some minor corrections; junzi for instance is not really a quality someone can obtain but a role they can assume, almost like become a "saint" or "sage", though it is often over-simplified and translated as "gentleman". The second paragraph of the East Asia section is a little strange, given that both points seem to have already been made. On this topic though, it seems like a lost opportunity to not expand on Buddhism, given its central relevance throughout history and the contemporary world. Aza24 (talk) 08:43, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks @Aza24: for your nice words and your edits. I am going through the article for one more time and I will try to address the issues you raise regarding East Asia section and Buddhism. I will let you know (at your talk page) so you can check for any inaccuracies etc. Cinadon36 11:56, 20 October 2022 (UTC)


  • Philosophy. @Alyo:. This section might be a little controversial and I would like your input. At the previous version, while all statements were based on RS, some readers might find it as an advertisment. Having in mind the essay Misplaced Pages:Criticism, I decided to transfer the text from the section criticism this section, since criticism was mostly philosophical I hope that fixes it. Your thoughts please. Cinadon36 18:43, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
    Hmm, I could see both sides. On the one hand, I see your point about the philosophy section being too positive. On the other hand, I would think that humanism was a big enough topic in philosophy to have it's own dedicated "criticism" section, sort of like Pragmatism#Criticisms, Postmodernism#Criticisms, Marxism#Criticism, or Existentialism#Criticisms. The only thing that would sway me towards having it in its own section would be that then the criticism section could be expanded beyond just philosophical criticisms, perhaps to include more social concerns and invite other editors to expand the article in other ways? But I'm also less familiar with the available material than you are--what do you think? Alyo (chat·edits) 20:13, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
    In a nutshell: I will try to move parts of the philosophical criticism to other parts of the article, as I move forward. Longer version: Thanks for the interesting examples of other articles. I am well aware of many more cases where a "criticism" section is added to the article. I am also perplexed on this issue. But I lean towards not having a section on criticism. I think, having criticism spread through the article facilitates comprehending the narrative better. Almost all books on humanism discuss "pro-humanism" and "anti-humanism" arguments/views in various chapters. Albeit, the best book (in my humble opinion), Penn's The Oxford Handbook of Humanism (2019) has a dedicated chapter on criticism. Nevertheless, it also discusses criticism of humanism in other chapters. So, I am thinking: "follow the sources". Having said all these, I acknowledge that the current version of the article is somewhere in the middle ground. The section on criticism has become a subsection. Not much of a change, is it? Anyway, my intention is to move parts of the criticism, where appropriate to other sections. I will see the end result and revisit this issue. Cinadon36 21:20, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Humanism and religion- re-written. . The reason of doing so, I thought the previous version was not explaining the (rather hostile) relation too well. I feel now it is better. I relied heavily on Oxf Handbook of humanism. All sentences but the first one, are attributed. Cinadon36 18:56, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Humanism and the meaning of life, I leave it as it stands. Cinadon36 19:11, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Humanism and politics, done. Cinadon36 09:45, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
  • On African American abandoning theism, claim attributed.
  • Lead. Reinserted modified sentence but then removed a part cos it is prob. undue
  • On Confucius, attributed.

Your comments @Alyo: please.Cinadon36 18:24, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm not following every single edit, but what I've seen seems to consistently be good improvements. Alyo (chat·edits) 18:38, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
@Alyo: Would you then reconsider the {{Essay-like}} template? Cinadon36 12:05, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
Let me know when you've finished your updates, and I'll do another full read-through and start my own edits. Alyo (chat·edits) 13:53, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
@Alyo:, I am done, the ball is in your hands now. If you need anything (sources, chat or whatever), let me know. Cinadon36 14:16, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
Great, I'll look at it between now and this weekend. And yes, I'm sure that I'll ask for some source excerpts. Alyo (chat·edits) 14:28, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Copyedits by section

Etymology and definition

  • The sentence "Defining humanism reveals the controversy surrounding humanism" is a little unclear--what controversy? Can you rephrase what this sentence is trying to convey, and we can rewrite it? Is the controversy just that there's no clear accepted definition of humanism?
  • I removed the last line of the Hook definition because it's clunky, but let me know if you think that's important and we can re-add it, although it may need to rephrase the sentence so it flows better.

Alyo (chat·edits) 13:39, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes @Alyo:, there is not a consensus on the definition- but you are right, "controversy" is probable an overstatement. No, Hook's definition is not that important. Cinadon36 03:08, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
@Cinadon36 Do you want to rephrase it to say something else about there not being consensus on the definition? Alyo (chat·edits) 14:39, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
Ok, sure, I will, but maybe on Monday.Cinadon36 15:17, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
No rush! I created this section so that we can work on different things at different times. Alyo (chat·edits) 15:29, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
Ok, here it is how I have re-worded the specific sentence. Cinadon36 09:33, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Humanism#Predecessors

  • I added some cite tags to this section, but on the whole I would just say to make sure that the sources say that, for example, Protagoras was making proto-humanist statements, or that there's a direct line of connection between Socrates and later humanism. The quotes themselves don't need citations, but this article is making an argument that they represent early humanist thought, or at least that there's a connection between these quotes and later humanism--and that needs a citation. If a source doesn't say that Epicurus or eudaimonia is connected to humanism, then why is it mentioned at all, right? So just make sure those sources are doing that connection. Alyo (chat·edits) 16:00, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
Hi @Alyo:, thanks for your edits and comments. Sometimes, I do not add a ref at the end of every sentence, I add it at the the end of the next sentence or at the end of a paragraph. I remember reading that connection somewhere, I am sure I will find it. Almost all RS on humanism treat Protagoras in the same fashion. I will go slow, it might take me a week or so. Cinadon36 08:34, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
That's exactly what I assumed you were doing--in general that's ok, but since so many of your sources are offline and the reviewer can't immediately check them, you will help yourself a lot in a future GAR if you add more footnotes. The other factor here is that some of these sentences are very big in what ideas they convey. For example Pre-Socratic philosophers were the first Western philosophers to attempt to explain the world in terms of human reason and natural law without relying on myth, tradition, or religion seems true as I read the section and I'm sure is backed up by the book, but it's also a very notable statement about one group of philosophers being the first to explain the world a certain way--I think that's important enough that we should have a footnote for it. Alyo (chat·edits) 15:00, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
I am not keen on adding footnotes. It is like hiding text in small corners. Also it aesthetically, they are somehow problematic. I understand though, this is a matter of taste. In any case, if it is going to help with GAR, I will do it. About Pre-socratics now, it is a widely accepted claim, I am sure there is plenty of evidence but what exactly should I add? as a |ps= or ? And should I just add the text from the book I read +/- a very short comment? Cinadon36 10:57, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
Sorry, when I say footnotes I just use that as a synonym for a citations--I don't mean an explanatory footnote with text. If you don't want to add text in footnotes I'm completely fine with that. Unless you are making very extreme claims, most reviewers will assume good faith about you inserting a citation, and they will trust you that it backs up the sentence. Alyo (chat·edits) 16:37, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
I had already prepared this edit, so tell me what you think. Cinadon36 18:48, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
I think that's great, but yes, I apologize for not being more clear--I didn't mean that you needed to type up content from each source into a footnote. Just the "Law 2011" or "Curd 2020" might be sufficient. Alyo (chat·edits) 22:12, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
No problem. Cinadon36 06:05, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

The connection of the ancient greek thought and contemporary humanism, is well established in various RS. For example,

  • Corlis Lamont (1997)- p68 The Humanist viewpoint permeated much of Greek culture during the Periclean Age
  • AC Grayling, Handbook of Humanism (2015) p87: "Despite the fact that the word ‘humanism’ has a short history, relatively speaking, its contemporary meaning relates it to the ethical tradition begun in classical antiquity".
  • Soffer 550:Heidegger, Humanism, and the Destruction of History, Author(s): Gail Soffer Source: The Review of Metaphysics, Vol. 49, No. 3 (Mar., 1996), pp. 547-576 "Yet in the first instance, for Heidegger "humanism" retains its wholly traditional his torical reference: the movement to retrieve the literary and artistic heritage of ancient Greece and Rome, and to establish study of the classics as an educative ideal, a movement begun in the Renaissance and still effective in Heidegger's own day in, for example, the institu tion of the humanistic Gymnasium."
  • J.Brent Crosson, The Oxford Handbook of Humanism: "The story of Humanism is also told as an insular European story of the reawakening of the knowledge of Ancient Greece"
  • Stephen Law: "But perhaps the most important Ancient Greek philosopher, from the point of view of humanism, is Epicurus (341–271 BC)" Law dedicates 6 pages in discussing classical thought in History Section of humanism A Very Short Introduction.

The above list is not a complete. Other authors discuss specific preSocratic (mostly Protagoras) or classical philosophers. Cinadon36 10:57, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Thinking about it over the weekend, maybe we should add a phrase or a sentence on this. It seems more important that the rest of the text! :) Cinadon36 08:45, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
How about adding this sentence @Alyo:? "It is a widespread view among scholars that the humanistic feutures of ancient Greek thought are the roots of humanism two thousand years later." What do you think? Cinadon36 20:14, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
So the only thing here is that if you're going to have the word "widespread", you need to have a source that actually says "this is a widespread view". It's not enough to just have multiple scholarly sources that draw that conclusion, because in theory all the other sources could say something different. However, you could also say "it's a repeated view" or "many scholars hold the view" or something similar, and then just cite the various authors you have? Alyo (chat·edits) 21:31, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
TBH, initially I thought the statement is strong enough to be added as a WP VOICE per WP:YESPOV I have never met/read anyone who claims otherwise. It is not a debatable issue. I didn't used a WP VOICE coz, it is still a view, not a fact. (But someone could argue: A shared opinion by many scientists, should be treated as a fact) In any case, I am not opposing your suggestion, I have changed the word "widespread" to "repeated" which I think is quite ok, I am happy with it. Cinadon36 08:15, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
Do you mean the part about "Avoid stating facts as opinions"? I understand how you can read that, but you need to look at the overall message of that section and compare how little of that policy talks about stating facts without attribution (three sentences) versus the general need to be very careful with any statement and make sure it's correctly attributed (everything else). Based on my experience, while that sentence may be fine for general editing, I think you're overestimating how much credit you'll get with YESPOV at peer review processes where everything's held to a higher standard, especially for this sort of general knowledge article. You should assume that if a statement requires any level of expertise to "know", then it's not as obvious as YESPOV is meant for. I'm a professional with multiple degrees--if I don't know it, then I don't think it rises to the sort of "sky is blue" level. On the other hand, if it's so truly that obvious to people in that profession, then hopefully it's at least easy to verify in some way? But yes I think "repeated" or even "common" is perfectly fine based on this sourcing. Alyo (chat·edits) 16:39, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
@Alyo: My take is that if there is a consensus among all experts of a field, then I take a YESPOV approach while editing WP. If there is consensus minus one expert, then it is not YESPOV. Anyway, your suggestion was a nice solution, thanks again. Cinadon36 06:05, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Renaissance

  • One of the first centers of the Greek literature revival was Padua, where Lovato Lovati and others studied ancient texts and wrote new literary works. Other centers were Verona, Naples, and Avignon. -- Can you expand these sentences in a way that makes the connection to humanism more clear? Why is it important to mention these places?
Hmmm, it seems you are right, it seems a triviality and since section is already larger than others, I removed it. . Cinadon36 17:30, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
  • who rediscovered, translated and popularized ancient texts -- which one did that, just Bruni?
Yes, fixed
  • Religion was not untouched with the increased interest of humanistic paideia, Pope Nicholas V initiated the translation of Hebrew and Greek biblical and other texts to Latin. -- can you clarify this sentence? Is the argument that the translation of biblical texts was a humanist move? If so, how?
The argument is that translation of biblical and other religious texts was a move influenced by humanism. Source says:

...To give another set of examples from a different cultural sector, Humanism helped to transform the religious situation in the hundred years before the Reformation. Pope Nicholas V (1447–1455) is a key figure here. He had the plan to transfer into Latin the whole Greek classical and patristic heritage. His favorite humanist, Giannozzo Manetti (1396–1459) made a new translation of the New Testament from the Greek and the Psalms from the Hebrew. George of Trebizond translated Eusebius of Caesarea, John Chrysostomus, and Cyril of Alexandria. Before and after Nicholas’ pontificate, other humanists translated Athanasius of Alexandria, Basil the Great, Gregory Nazianzenus, Gregory of Nyssa, and Origen. These translations started to be printed in the later fifteenth century...

I will see how I can make it more clear, or may I will just add the quote at footnotes. Cinadon36 06:20, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
This is really interesting. I've adjusted that sentence here--let me know if it conveys what you want to convey. Alyo (chat·edits) 21:40, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
That s definitely an improvement, thanks! Cinadon36 07:53, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
  • Once you clarify the sentence Humanists succeeded in setting the principles of education, that will also help me to better phrase the ideas in the sentence Parallel with advances in education, humanists in renaissance made progress in other fields, as in philosophy, mathematics and religion. Alyo (chat·edits) 18:03, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
    Maybe needs rewording. Here is the text of the source:

    Humanism immensely enriched, if not transformed, disciplines outside the studia humanitatis, as humanists themselves combined different expertise or, alternatively, non-humanists made use of what they received from humanists.

    And it goes on, explaining advances in maths, philosophy and religion, by various humanists. Cinadon36 19:56, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
    how does it look? Cinadon36 20:01, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 December 2022

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change

Contemporary humanist organizations work under the umbrella of Humanist International.

to

Contemporary humanist organizations work under the umbrella of Humanists International. David-NL-1978 (talk) 16:23, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

I had the same question when reading that section. @Cinadon36, which did you mean to say? Alyo (chat·edits) 16:28, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks @David-NL-1978:, you are right, thanks for noting. Fixed. . Cinadon36 18:50, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Removal of {{Essay-like|date=October 2022}}

I am thinking of removing it. Some issues raised have been resolved as far as I can tell. @Alyo: would you be ok with that? Cinadon36 08:57, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Removed a sentence

I removed a sentence I couldnt verify

High-profile members of academia and public figures {{like whom|reason=Which persons are these?|date=January 2023}}have published work in ''The Humanist'', and joined and lead the AHA.{{cn|date=January 2023}}

I will see if I can spot it somewhere else, but I am not too optimistic about it. And it isn't that significant.Cinadon36 09:57, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

personal essay tag

Can someone please locate the areas at the article that text resembles a personal essay, so I can fix them in due time? Thanks. notifying @Alyo:. Cinadon36 17:36, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 February 2023

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Under the Morality heading, second paragraph, second to last sentence should read, "Shook..." rather than "Spook..." Thing69 (talk) 22:06, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

 Done. Next time, WP:FIXIT. Zefr (talk) 23:08, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Article issues and classification

Article fails B-class criteria #1 and #4. Reassess article.
  • A February 2023 inline "citation needed" tag,
  • A January 2023 inline "ambiguous" tag.
  • Two inline 2023 "clarification needed" tags.
  • An October 2022 article "essay-like" tag and January 2023 "essay-like" section tag is a style issue.
  • A January 2023 "Dates and numbers#Chronological items" tag. -- Otr500 (talk) 23:43, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
    @Otr500 most issues have been resolved. Can you help me with the dates and numbers tag? You mean the "Use dmy dates" I thought that was just an advice. Cinadon36 09:52, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
I will take a look later today/ -- Otr500 (talk) 13:43, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
A tag at the top of the article is so all the date formats will be consistent. A "Dates and numbers#Chronological items" would be a timeline. It makes an article hard to read if the timeline (series of events) is not in some order. I didn't look at it but will. -- Otr500 (talk) 14:57, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

A couple more comments

The article has improved dramatically from when I first saw it, and I think the essay tag can come off with the resolution of these two issues:

  • One of the main issues that I still have is the use of quotes and excerpts to make a point that may or not be made by other reliable sources. For example, in the Enlightenment section, we have this: Previous appeals to "men" now shifted toward "man"; this is evident in political documents like The Social Contract (1762) of Rousseau, in which he says "Man is born free, but is everywhere in chains". Is there a source that says that Rousseau's comments reflect a development in humanism, or are we just saying that? If the former, it needs a source. If the latter, it needs to be replaced by a different example that is sourced. Same for the Brothers Karamazov quote in Themes: Morality and the Confucius quotes later (and was also true for the Camus quote).
  • The Geographies of humanism section is a little confusing, in that the individual sections don't seem to thematically hold together. Some are about an entire continental history, others about a single religion or religious figure, and then the Americas section just includes a very broad, sweeping statement about humanism in a single document (the US Constitution) with an inference made about the rest of US history. It feels...a little thrown together? I'm not sure that this section is really needed, as a lot of this could be merged into the history section (the Europe stuff already is) and the rest cut.

Let me know what you think. Alyo (chat·edits) 15:14, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

I am glad @Alyo: you feel the article has improved. I share the same view.Cinadon36 18:55, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

  • Quotes on the enlightenment section. Source (Davies, p 25), notices a shift during that era, he says the abstract notion of humanity was formed. He uses Rousseau's quote (and others) as example. He dedicates a section at his book on this shift. I think if we try, we could tell the same story without the quotation. Give me a couple of days and I will think of something. If you have something to suggest, please go ahead. Cinadon36 18:55, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
    Well to be clear, if the source uses that quote, then it's fine. We can just say "Davies points to Rousseau..." etc etc. Alyo (chat·edits) 13:28, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
    Ok, so I have made this edit . Cinadon36 11:07, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
    I do not have time for the rest, I will have a look on Monday. Cinadon36 11:09, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
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