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Notability

Greetings Jimbo. Happy Spring.

I'm curious if you think subjects like the following are notable. Do you think it's too difficuot to have them included in Misplaced Pages?

• Fleta, Alabama (Draft:Fleta, Alabama)
• Jack Clifford (actor) (Draft:Jack Clifford (actor))
• Capitol Park (Tuscaloosa, Alabama (Draft:Capitol Park (Tuscaloosa, Alabama))
• Post-Newsweek Production (Draft:Post-Newsweek Productions)
• Tachira Railway (Draft:Tachira Railway)
• Wendell Peters (Draft:Wendell Peters)
• Henry Kernot (Draft:Henry Kernot)
• Don Noble (Draft:Don Noble)
• Minnie T. Wright (Draft:Minnie T. Wright)
• Albert Henderson Wade Ross (Draft:Albert Henderson Wade Ross)
• William E. Shay (Draft:William E. Shay)
• John Lewis Peyton (Draft:John Lewis Peyton)

FloridaArmy (talk) 00:52, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Jimbo of course can speak for himself, but I think that the GNG language is very clear: A topic is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list when it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. So, if you have identified several sources that meet that three part standard, then write the draft. If not, don't bother writing a draft because that is a waste of time in my opinion. I suggest that you leave such topics on your long term "to do" list. Cullen328 (talk) 01:44, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Is this entry substantial coverage in a reliable independent source? Or this one? How about this one User:Cullen328? Those are among the cited sources for John Lewis Peyton. FloridaArmy (talk) 01:56, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

FloridaArmy, the first is a specialist encyclopedia article, which I think that most editors would accept but consider a tertiary source. The second is a database entry. In my opinion, most editors do not consider such entries to constitute significant coverage. The third is a book published in 1868, shortly after the Civil War that it discusses. We have a strong preference for much more recent sources, especially when trying to establish notability. I have used book of that era for direct quotes or for uncontroversial biographical details, but not for trying to establish notability. Cullen328 (talk) 02:29, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

What makes something a specialist encyclopedia User:Cullen328? I would think substantial coverage from William S. Powell, one of the premier historians of North Carolina (written in the 1990/ more than 100 years after Peyton's death) would be solid. What type of coverage are you lookong for and from whom? FloridaArmy (talk) 02:49, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

A specialist encyclopedia is something like the Dictionary of North Carolina Biography, which strives to write up as many North Carolina people as possible. You ought to be familiar with the distinction between secondary sources and tertiary sources. I am not saying that it is an unacceptable source but rather a source with a bit of weakness. Cullen328 (talk) 06:48, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Not going to do the huge job of analyzing 12 topics. But at first glance IMHO the majority would probably meet the defacto standard (e.g. survive AFD) for existence of an article in Misplaced Pages but the AFC standard is higher which does not pass edge cases. This is due to the structure combined with human nature. An AFC reviewer is not going to want to gamble their stamp of approval on an edge case. North8000 (talk) 02:39, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Eek's assessment

• Fleta, Alabama (Draft:Fleta, Alabama): If you want places approved, I highly suggest that you learn how to use infoboxes and specifically the GPS function. If an editor can't easily tell where the town is, that really complicates things. Further, it is unclear whether this is a ghost town or not. If its just some long gone ghost town, its rather unlikely to be notable.
• Jack Clifford (actor) (Draft:Jack Clifford (actor)): its just a list of films. He looks like the 1920's equivalent of a direct-to-video star. What makes him stand out? If you can't say, he's probably not notable.
• Capitol Park (Tuscaloosa, Alabama (Draft:Capitol Park (Tuscaloosa, Alabama)): probably notable, though I note it hasn't been reviewed yet. Jimbo's talk is not a review accelerator.
• Post-Newsweek Production (Draft:Post-Newsweek Productions): not notable. Just one of millions of defunt companies that never achieved much.
• Tachira Railway (Draft:Tachira Railway): not declined for notability reasons, but rather because your grammar was bad. Unfortunately, that seems to be a trend I'm noticing. I note that a sentence like "a map was sold of it" is...pretty bad writing, and also WP:TRIVIA. FA, you've been here at Jimbo talk repeatedly, and I understand your frustration. But if you're going to continue to focus on quantity over quality, you're gonna keep having the same issues. Consciously or not, when a draft is poorly written, reviewers are going to assume you don't know what you're doing, and it makes it that much harder to get approved. Focus on the details more.
• Wendell Peters (Draft:Wendell Peters): You don't even have his birthday or death date. Beyond that, you have basically only primary sources: court cases that he was on. From what has been provided, this guy is no more important than every lawyer who has ever lived. In fact, it seems a bit unfair to him to create an article on him: his life seems to have gone kind of sour. Would you want your life memorialized like that for all time?
• Henry Kernot (Draft:Henry Kernot): this guy is mildly interesting. But it looks like nobody has breathed a word of him in more than a century. If you could find some modern sources about him, maybe.
• Don Noble (Draft:Don Noble): well from the sources you've provided, he's not notable. Its not the job of the reviewer to look for more sources. Perhaps he fits into one of the professor SNGs? Beyond that, I'm seeing a continued disconnect between you and GNG. I'm not sure what your hangup is. You need at least two, in-depth, quality sources that mention the subject at length, that are not written by the source or someone related. A short biography by the guy's employer does not and cannot fill that requirement.
• Minnie T. Wright (Draft:Minnie T. Wright): wait for it to get reviewed.
• Albert Henderson Wade Ross (Draft:Albert Henderson Wade Ross): this isn't even your draft, and also, wait for it to get reviewed.
• William E. Shay (Draft:William E. Shay): having a picture is good. Having exactly one sentence about him, with no citations, is bad.
• John Lewis Peyton (Draft:John Lewis Peyton): he might actually be notable. But the way you have written the article is exactly the reason you keep failing at AFC. You have an entire source (Yelton, 1989) discussing an amusing exploit from this guy's life. And you have pulled nothing from it. So a reviewer, at a glance, only sees an article about...a different dude, and assumes that you mistook him for someone else. Instead of an interesting sentence like "John Lewis Peyton was the source of numerous 19th century misconceptions about the mound builders, a group of indigenous peoples in the Americas.", and so on, you have nothing. Yelton 1989 gives you a goldmine! There is so much info about John Lewis Peyton's life in there: where he went to school, that he was a fellow of the Royal Geographical society no less! Plus, the article gives a very amusing story that would make an excellent DYK hook. But you have pulled out none of that, leaving not even the barebones of an article, and are then upset when a reviewer declines it.You can't expect the reviewers to do all the work for you.

In conclusion, yes I know I was a bit sassy, but please pay attention to the details. You can succeed, but its about quality over quantity. CaptainEek ⚓ 03:18, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Eek, thank you for all that, it must have taken some significant time. I will myself try to look into a few of these but in general, I think your advice here is good. FloridaArmy, do you have access to a newspaper archive site? I do, I use newspaperarchive.com, and I find it very helpful for finding sources.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:47, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

It's nice that you can afford that subscription fee and I assume that you get the NYT and Washington Post, at the very minimum, as well. I wish I could get those. I'm retired and am on a very limited income. I've been here for over 15 years and I have put hundreds of hours into the numerous articles I've worked on. We asked for help with reference sites about four years ago and then again about two years ago. They always say, "Were working on it!". But of course they aren't, though it seems to me that they do find the money for other things. Sectionworker (talk) 21:58, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Sectionworker The Misplaced Pages library provides access to Newspapers.com, and a bunch of other things, free to volunteers like you. I'm not sure about the NYTimes, though I imagine access to an institutional subscription like that would be very pricey for the foundation. CaptainEek ⚓ 22:08, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Might be a good use for some of the many millions of cash the foundation has. And it would sure beat having to hit ctrl-a ctrl-c before the subscription window pops up. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:11, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

The folks at WP:REX will be able to get you copies of many/most articles you could think of to request as well. Eddie891 _Work 23:31, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the New York Times (and other major news publications) shows up in the results on ProQuest, which is also one of the resources available in The Misplaced Pages Library bundle. Silverseren 01:19, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure, at least not beyond abstract. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:29, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

ProQuest has NYT's full text from 1857 to current along with the New-York Daily Times from 1851-1857. S0091 (talk) 21:18, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks to all for the suggestions. Unfortunately, for me none of them are of much help (though one said that I wasn't eligible). Most of my work deals with current events, for example, I am a leading editor of the Warren, Sanders, and two of the President Trump policy articles. As editors, you all know something that the reading public does not know: Just one or two sentences in an article can involve hours of work reading many current news articles. So I believe that it's understandable that I don't want to then spend time getting special permission to check out one more current source. Also, I don't do as much writing as I used to do but I still do daily checks on all of my articles and when I wish to do an accuracy check of a new edit, if the NYT was used as a source, as it frequently is, I just have to hope that another watcher will check it.

While still on my soap box, I'd like to say a few heartfelt things about our encyclopedia. I have a lot of admiration, and am so thankful to Jimbo for this great endeavor he attempted and succeeded at: Let people assist other people by offering them accurate information about everything in the world at no cost - which was put together by other people working for free and doing it only for the joy of being of service to others. What else in the world can claim such a noble cause? A few, but not very many. But now that we have become so large, we have become similar to a world corporate power. I would be concerned if a large, paid governing body began to make all of our decisions. My concern would be that they would begin to only look to expansion and fund raising, etc., and the other things that corporations do. And almost invariably, they forget their humble beginnings and quit caring about the very people who carry out the daily work of making their product or project. I have copied Chris Hedges dire warning on my Gandydancer user page. I say there that we must be careful to guard against Misplaced Pages becoming a corporate-controlled encyclopedia. OK, to all of those who haven't nodded off by now, thanks for reading. Sectionworker (talk) 22:05, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

• Thanks for the feedback and input. I've read it a few times and take it all into consideration. I would like to note that bad grammar is a horrific reason for rejection of an entry. Similarly, criticism for not being adept at GPS locating or other technical requirements should not stop editors from having notable subjects included.
• My two biggest takeaways are that Misplaced Pages is in danger of becoming much less collaborative. Requiring individual editors to produce a relatively finished entry on a subject before we include it is bad for many reasons. User:CaptainEek also badly misses the mark on the Post-Newsweek film production company. Entries like that provide a listing for films made by the company many of which may not be individually notable but are worth including. In this case we have documentary films about the women's rights movement, African American cinema, patents, the U.S. capitol and other subjects. Our encyclopedia is much worse when we exclude this material. And as it turns out the women's suffrage documentary was narrated by the actress who played Edith Bunker and the one on patents by Captain Kirk (the actor not the actual starship commander). So our biographical entries on those subjects and their filmographies have been incomplete. Thank you all for giving me ideas on how I can be better and I hope this discussion highlights some of the problems and challenges Misplaced Pages faces as it moves forward. Should it really take weeks or months for an entry on the former capitol of Alabama that was also used as a girls school and is now a park with ruins along the river in Tuscaloosa to get included??? This is nuts. And if it's this hard for that subject imagine what it's like trying to include African American subjects that are not of as wide general interest to our editing community. It's not pretty. And I have tried using the Wiki newspaper access program and a site recommended by User:Drmies on his talk page and had limited success. Different editors have different skills. FloridaArmy (talk) 17:57, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

  I'm only going on opine on Draft:Tachira Railway since trains are kind of my thing. It's not just bad grammar, it's clearly incomplete. You have Gran Ferrocarril del Tachira should link here at the top of the article, which is obviously an editorial note that should not appear in mainspace at any point. However, searching under the railroad's Spanish name (Ferrocarril del Tachira) shows numerous results, though largely in Spanish, which strongly suggests it is notable. For instance, here's 26 pages that appear to be about the railroad (in Spanish), and another source in English, which even has a map of the railroad on page 54. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 18:07, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I absolutely agree it is notable, should be expanded (especially by editors with proficiency in Spanish), and that redirects to the page should be made so notes about them don't appear in mainspace. Every submitted draft should note what redirects are needed so they get made. FloridaArmy (talk) 18:13, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Submitted drafts should not include editorial notes as article text. Put editorial notes in hidden notes (<!--text-->) or put them on the talkpage. CMD (talk) 02:52, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Articles have long included templates. The idea of making needed redirects hidden is absurd. Every draft article submitted should include notation of needed redirects. FloridaArmy (talk) 16:17, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Like CMD said, why not note them on the talkpage and then do them if the draft is accepted? "Notes" in draft text will probably only tell a reviewer "not ready." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:57, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

At AFC, it is normal to leave comments for important things at the top of the draft itself. To ensure that the AFC helper script deletes these when the draft is accepted, we can wrap them in the template {{AfC comment}}. Recent examples of folks commenting about redirecting, disambiguation, etc. in a draft can be found in the first comments at Draft:Billy Cotton and Draft:James Kearney. Hope this helps. –Novem Linguae (talk) 17:07, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

"Manipuri: The Bishnupriyas and Meiteis of Manipur" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Manipuri: The Bishnupriyas and Meiteis of Manipur has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Anyone, including you, is welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 March 21 § Manipuri: The Bishnupriyas and Meiteis of Manipur until a consensus is reached. Jay 💬 13:30, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi Jay, I enjoyed having a look at that, as I have a general interest in smaller ethnic groups in the modern world, but I'm not really sure why you notified me in particular. If there's a particular angle to it that you thought could benefit from my input, please do let me know, thanks!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:06, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

You were probably notified as the page creator, the standard practice (or should be, the deletion nominator didn't notify you, happens a lot) when discussing moves or whatnot. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:11, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Randy. Yes, Twinkle would have automatically done it, but for manual RfD nominations, notifications are also manual and optional. Jay 💬 18:17, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

How fascinating. It looks like back in 2010, I moved the page from the old title, which is now a redirect of course, to a new title. I have no memory of this now. I am curious though - given that redirects like this don't cause any harm, what is the rationale behind having such a process to delete them?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:55, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Old redirects that have lost its use over time are deleted at RfD. In this specific case, I believe the rationale is that the redirect is misleading readers with a title having "Bishnupriyas and Meiteis" into thinking that the target has content on a comparison between two ethinicities, whereas the target (Bishnupriya Manipuri people) is about a single "Bishnupriyas Meitei" ethinic group. Jay 💬 15:12, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Exactly, exactly, exactly (just don't say it three times in a mirror)! Thousands of article and redirects and other items which cause no harm have been on an assembly line of deletion over the years, thus removing them actually hurts and does not maintain the encyclopedia. The deletion nominations are the saddest places (and, sadly, the most active in terms of scores of items brought to them daily) on Misplaced Pages, but some editors love to, as they call it, "nuke" the pages so the fine not-taking-up-space deletions keep rolling on. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:22, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

I, for one, prefer my search box not to be filled with useless and outright misleading suggestions. Having redirects to pages that never mention the search term is actively detrimental, since readers won't know if they're in the right place; preserving things shouldn't come at the cost of sending our readers on a wild goose chase. If it's not actually helpful, it's taking up space and disseminating either extraneous or entirely incorrect information. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 00:15, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Taking up what space? Where on the reflection of the head of the pin that is Misplaced Pages in real space does it reside? (couldn't resist, you teed that one up) Randy Kryn (talk) 02:48, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

So yeah, "taking up space" isn't compelling, but the rest of what The Blade says 100% is. If poorly formatted redirects cause clutter in our search results, that's a meaningful reason to delete them. Whether deleting them is the best possible solution, I am not qualified to say, but making sure the search results are good is a valid thing that I had not previously considered when I asked my question.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:19, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Good points, but applicable on a case-by-case basis and redirects probably wouldn't interfere with search results in most uses. It is mentioned in the RfD that the page discussed here was at that title for four years, and, added to that, since it does include portions of the wording, it seems a viable redirect. A balance between logical redirects and those that take wording to an extremely unlikely search phrase should guide the process. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:04, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

It was a while ago, but I remember this mess from years ago. The main issue was with mojibake, but part of it was also Arabic redirects and other really odd search terms that made absolutely no sense. Leaving those in place would've been a bad thing, for reasons detailed in that discussion. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 14:16, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	Thanks for MAKING wikipedia! AugustusAudax (talk) 14:53, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

The sound logo has arrived

And it is here. ♦IanMacM♦ 16:42, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

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