Talk:Dana Rivers: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 02:04, 11 April 2023 editThivierr (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers26,779 edits →Dana Rivers Porn books ← Previous edit		Revision as of 02:16, 13 April 2023 edit undoMickTravisBickle (talk \| contribs)280 edits →Dana Rivers Porn books: ReplyTags: Reverted Reply Next edit →
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	Rivers published multiple porn books one that was about abusing young girls. The lead of Charles Manson’s page is Charles Manson was a murderer and musician then the fact that Rivers was an author and part of camp Trans should be in there. This article has been paired down specifically in my opinion to minimize what a deadly, horrible person Rivers is and that needs to change. ] (]) 10:05, 10 April 2023 (UTC)		Rivers published multiple porn books one that was about abusing young girls. The lead of Charles Manson’s page is Charles Manson was a murderer and musician then the fact that Rivers was an author and part of camp Trans should be in there. This article has been paired down specifically in my opinion to minimize what a deadly, horrible person Rivers is and that needs to change. ] (]) 10:05, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
	:This isn't in the same universe of a reliable source, and constitutes original research. Also, Misplaced Pages isn't a place to expose how bad somebody is. I wasn't sure if I should have responded to this, or just deleted the comments. --] (]) 02:04, 11 April 2023 (UTC)		:This isn't in the same universe of a reliable source, and constitutes original research. Also, Misplaced Pages isn't a place to expose how bad somebody is. I wasn't sure if I should have responded to this, or just deleted the comments. --] (]) 02:04, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
			::I’m really flummoxed why various examples of this person’s life is such a sore subject for people. And removing Dana River’s connection Mitchfest isn’t going to work wbecause there is documentation. Maybe not that there’s a direct connection between the savage murder hate crime that occurred on the part of this monster that passes itself off as a human being but Dana Rivers was an alumini of Camp Trans. That is a fact. Rivers was present there multiple years. It will not be white wash from this article. Or the camp trans article. ] (]) 02:16, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Revision as of 02:16, 13 April 2023

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17 October 2022 Trial

Links related to the 17 October 2022 jury trial in Alameda County, Califorinia.

Steve Helling, 2022. Ex-Teacher Faces Murder Trial After Family of 3 — Including Teen Son — Are Shot, Stabbed in California Home. People, https://people.com/crime/former-teacher-murder-trial-family-killed/, 12 October 2022.
Vanesa Serna, 2022. Transgender rights advocate, 67, will finally stand trial for 2016 murders of lesbian couple and their son, 19, after 'killer' was banned from attending women-only lesbian festival. The Daily Mail, https://dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11313137/Trans-activist-finally-stand-trial-2016-murder-lesbians-son-week.html, 13 October 2022.
Brad Hunter, 2022. Trans activist on trial in slaying of lesbian couple, son over festival snub. Toronto Sun, https://torontosun.com/news/world/trans-activist-on-trial-in-slaying-of-lesbian-couple-son-over-festival-snub, 14 October 2022.
Nate Gartrell, 2022. San Jose transgender activist, teacher was vengeful ‘enforcer’ for all-female biker gang, leading to Oakland triple homicide, DA says. San Jose Mercury News, https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/10/25/san-jose-transgender-activist-teacher-was-vengeful-enforcer-for-all-female-biker-gang-leading-to-oakland-triple-homicide-da-says/, 25 October 2022.
Emilie Raguso, 2022. Years after Oakland killing, Dana Rivers murder trial nears an end. The Berkeley Scanner, https://www.berkeleyscanner.com/2022/11/14/courts/dana-rivers-murder-trial-oakland/, 14 November 2022.
Kara Dansky, https://www.karadansky.com/state-v-dana-rivers-updates.

Rorybowman (talk) 12:57, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Mugshot

Why is the Alameda County mugshot of Rivers in hospital gown not posted here? Is it a policy issue, or it simply that no one has bothered? Rorybowman (talk) 17:35, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Rivers found guilty on all charges

According to https://twitter.com/AirDhatu/status/1592673404200845312, the jury has found him guilty on all charges. 80.250.14.227 (talk) 00:51, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Twitter is not a reliable source. Wait for it to be covered in reliable sources. — Ingenuity (talk • contribs) 00:54, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Kara Dansky reports on closing arguments and guilty verdicts

Dansky writes:

I attended the closing arguments in the trial of Dana Rivers (a.k.a., David Warfield) on Monday, November 14. The jury started deliberating on the morning of Tuesday November 15 and the verdict came down just before 4:00 p.m. that day - guilty on all counts: Murder in the first degree in the killings of Charlotte Reed, Patricia Wright, and Benny Wright and arson, with all special circumstances (particularly vulnerable victims, use of deadly weapons, etc.) being found to be true.

See https://karadansky.substack.com/p/closing-arguments-and-verdicts-in.

77.240.96.198 (talk) 21:52, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Manual of Style/ Gender Identity

I'm making three edits to bring the article in line with MOS:GID. First, the pronouns should consistently be "she/her," even when talking pre-transition. There was a good faith edit to use gender neutral language, but that doesn't really apply here. WP:DEADNAME is pretty clear on this.

Second, her deadname should be removed, as "pre-transition names may only be included if the person was notable while using the name." Again, WP:DEADNAME is very clear on this. The only argument for notoriety pre-transition is that she was a popular teacher that received a grant and was on a school board. The oldest article about her is from 1999, after she changed her name.

Third, the clause in the intro, "a male identifying as a woman" should be removed. It's completely unnecessary.

One more edit I think should be done is remove the unnecessary sentence about penile inversion surgery and breast augmentation. That's more tabloid content than encyclopedia.. Sativa Inflorescence (talk) 21:44, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

The best way to decide if something is "tabloid" content, is if it's from a tabloid. This wasn't, it was from ABC News. The source seems to be fairly respectful to the subject, and gotten much of its details from the Rivers and her surgeon. We're not talking about a tabloid leaking private details of somebody's life they got from a paid informant. The surgery is probably one of the most significant details of her personal life, which she's chosen to share publicly. Take a look at Lance Armstrong, where there is a great deal of detail of the medical treatment, including mention of removing testicals. So, even encyclopedias can use words like "penile", "breast", and "testical" without being a tabloid. --Rob (talk) 03:34, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Good point. I think that ABC story is somewhat dated, but the fact it was an interview on national TV in 2006 is important. I think adding this context in the article would make it fit in better. Though I'm still not sure it needs to be there at all. Sativa Inflorescence (talk) 07:10, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

birthdate is not sourced

We need a reliable source for the birthdate. It's not in any source cited yet. Generally, an birthdate (especially an exact one) is considered private unless/until a reliable source publishes. So, something like a court database wouldn't qualify. I'm also perplexed why an editor who wants to keep a birth name private (which I agree with, since it's non-notable, not essential) but wishes to expose an exact birthdate, which is even less notable. What possible purpose is there in showing a person's *exact* birthdate? Misplaced Pages has millions of notable people who aren't famous. We shouldn't be publishing exact birthdates on every non-famous person, just because some random website happens to mention it. Lots of personal details can be found combing through court records. It's not our job to do this, or to repeat what some random site has done. Rather, we should just be following what reliable sources have done. See Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons#Privacy of personal information and using primary sources. Unfortunately, what's likely to happen, is somebody keeps re-adding it to Misplaced Pages, which other sources will repeat, and it will eventually be fully public, and we'll and up citing that. --Rob (talk) 04:50, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

My bad! I corrected a couple dates in the article, and no birthdate just seemed like an oversight at the time. I missed the prior edit war. In hindsight, of course you need a good reason to include a birthday. I'd hate to contribute that circular citation problem, too. It's agGood reminder to slow down, and I obviously need to study WP:BLP more. Thanks. Sativa Inflorescence (talk) 05:15, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Does Dana's description line need an update?

Is it still accurate to refer to Dana as a "transgender activist" in her description line? It seems to me that for the past few years, she is most known as being a murderer, not an activist. I do not want to make any changes without requesting feedback, but this seems a bit misleading to me as a description.

I realize that I am new to editing Misplaced Pages, so if policy is that people should be referred to as what they first made the news for vs. what they've made the news for in more recent years, I am eager to learn more! Codexica (talk) 05:20, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

River was previously notable as an activist, and is now notable as a murderer. What are other precedents, such as OJ Simpson? Perhaps there is guidance there. Rorybowman (talk) 14:54, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

She's not notable as a murderer. The murders have received barely any press in comparison to the massive national attention of her case with the school board and releated activism. What coverage there has been of the murder mainly exists because of her prior notability as an transgender activist. Sadly, the murder of three people in California isn't an unusual event, and would never warrant an article. So, while relevant to include in the article, including lead, if we have to pick a single item for the description line, it has to be "transgender activist". --Rob (talk) 04:17, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

I very much agree with Rob here; weight in Misplaced Pages articles is based on reporting in reliable sources, not editor interpretation. Actualcpscm (talk) 20:51, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Reddux is NOT a trustworthy source

I highly recommend to remove Reddux as a source. It is a fake news website, that is at least pretty inaccurate and leaves out important information on purpose. It writes highly misleading articles, in the least.

~~~ 77.20.46.10 (talk) 21:18, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Wow! Yeah, that website is terrible. It's especially not needed as a citation for the verdict, when the LA times citation is in the very next sentence. I removed it. Sativa Inflorescence (talk) 04:17, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

"Mass murderer" and status as activist

The addition of "mass murderer" to the article and the change from "transgender advocate" to "transgender rights activist" was a politically motivated edit by an account named "Actually, TWAM".

Moreover, it does not seem accurate to describe her as still being an activist, as she is not, to our knowledge, currently involved in any form of activism. To state that she "is an American transgender activist" implies she is actively involved in activism, which has not been the case for years. - Lekale35 (talk) 01:39, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Pinging others involved in this dispute: @Codexica, Rorybowman, and Thivierr:. (Additional context at User talk:GorillaWarfare#Dana Rivers edit). GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 16:16, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

She's clearly notable *only* as an activist. Do a Google News search on her, and you get multiple headlines like "Transgender activist and former teacher found guilty of triple murder".. Being a trans activist is what she is known for. The murders would barely be mentioned locally, if not for her prior notability. Also, I don't think referring to her as an "activist" implies she's doing new activism today, just as calling her a "murderer" doesn't mean she's continuing to commit murder. --Rob (talk) 04:22, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the ping. I prefer the term "advocate" as simpler than "rights activist," both stylistically and because Rivers is not particularly active just now, but don't think it matters a great deal. Certainly Rivers' conviction is more recently notable than the earlier lawsuit, but both seem worth keeping. Rorybowman (talk) 08:15, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. Honestly, I think "activist" and "advocate" are basically synonyms in this instance, so I'm fine with wherever consensus lands. I do think that we need to keep the murder mention in the lede; while the original edit may have been from a biased account, it is true and noteworthy, and it's why she was back in the news. Codexica (talk) 00:05, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Why would there be any question of keeping the word, murderer, or murderer in the lead? MickTravisBickle (talk) 17:44, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Dana Rivers Porn books

https://www.amazon.com/Loris-Taboo-Play-Erotic-Romance-ebook/dp/B00R0HZ1IW/ref=sr_1_2?qid=1681147205&refinements=p_27%3ADana+Rivers&s=digital-text&sr=1-2&text=Dana+Rivers

https://www.amazon.com/Professors-Offer-Menage-Erotic-Romance-ebook/dp/B00R1FBE1G/ref=sr_1_4?qid=1681148431&refinements=p_27%3ADana+Rivers&s=digital-text&sr=1-4&text=Dana+Rivers

Rivers published multiple porn books one that was about abusing young girls. The lead of Charles Manson’s page is Charles Manson was a murderer and musician then the fact that Rivers was an author and part of camp Trans should be in there. This article has been paired down specifically in my opinion to minimize what a deadly, horrible person Rivers is and that needs to change. MickTravisBickle (talk) 10:05, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

This isn't in the same universe of a reliable source, and constitutes original research. Also, Misplaced Pages isn't a place to expose how bad somebody is. I wasn't sure if I should have responded to this, or just deleted the comments. --Rob (talk) 02:04, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

I’m really flummoxed why various examples of this person’s life is such a sore subject for people. And removing Dana River’s connection Mitchfest isn’t going to work wbecause there is documentation. Maybe not that there’s a direct connection between the savage murder hate crime that occurred on the part of this monster that passes itself off as a human being but Dana Rivers *was an alumini of Camp Trans.* That is a fact. Rivers was present there multiple years. It will not be white wash from this article. Or the camp trans article. MickTravisBickle (talk) 02:16, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

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