Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 17:48, 15 May 2023

Hinduism Stub‑class Low‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Hinduism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Hinduism on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HinduismWikipedia:WikiProject HinduismTemplate:WikiProject HinduismHinduism Stub This article has been rated as Stub-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Template:WikiProject Hinduism/Shaktism

Source

How this source is unreliable? Loudsheer (talk) 15:22, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

I have clearly asked for the exact page number & quotation! Please read the messages before responding! Ekdalian (talk) 15:28, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Kulin groups could be found among the three twice born castes of Brahmin, Vaidya and Kayastha.

P.29

I hope this helped, thanks. Loudsheer (talk) 15:32, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

@Loudsheer and Ekdalian: Here is a longer quote from Karlekar's review of an early 20th century autobiobraphy of a "Kulin widow". The extract is from footnote 2 in the article, explaining that term:

Kulinism is a complicated system of hypergamous polygamy which was peculiar only to Bengal. Very briefly, a literal translation of the term Kulin: it is the highest among castes and Kulin groups could be found among the three twice born castes of Brahmin, Vaidya and Kayastha; however the form of hypergamy described in Sekeley Katha was most common among the Brahmins. According to the principles of the system, a Kulin male could only marry a Kulin girl or those from a few other recognized categories of Brahmins. The system resulted in a surfeit of unmarried girls who were then married serially to the same Kulin man

She goes on describe the ills for women in this system citing:

Chaudhari, Ray (1975). "Norms of Family life and Personal Morality among the Belgali Hindu Elite 1600-1850". In Baumer, Rachel Van M (ed.). Aspects of Bengali History and Society. University of Hawaii Press.

Does anyone have access to this work so that we can look up what it has to say Kulinism directly?

More broadly, perhaps we can cooperatively compile the relevant sources here to see what weight to give to Baidya's inclusion. On a cursory search it does appear that most sources talk about Kulinas among Brahmins and Kayasthas, and many articles cite

Inden, Ronald B. (1 January 1976). Marriage and Rank in Bengali Culture: A History of Caste and Clan in Middle Period Bengal. University of California Press. ISBN 978-0-520-02569-1.

as a foundational work on the topic. What other works discuss the topic in depth? Abecedare (talk) 15:14, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Abecedare for this initiative! As you have rightly pointed out, most of the articles rely on Inden's 'Marriage and Rank in Bengali Culture: A History of Caste and Clan in Middle Period Bengal' as the detailed reliable source; you will find some additional sources in the articles on Kulin Kayastha and/or Kulin Brahmin. But the key point here is the Kulinism or awarding the Kulin title to selective Brahmin and Kayastha clans of Bengal revolves around different versions of the quasi historical story that a king named Adisura brought five Vedic Brahmins accompanied by five Kayasthas from the ancient city of Kannauj as per all reliable sources, and these immigrants were granted Kulina (superior) status except Dutta who refused the same. Now, different versions of this narrative exist; some historians say Adisura and Ballal Sena are the same king, while others disagree!

Now, the question is, irrespective of the version, since the origin theory talks about immigrant Brahmins & Kayasthas only, Baidyas (in spite of being one of the three upper castes) have not been discussed in any version of the same! This explains why we do not have any article on Kulin Baidya! Some fringe sources mention Baidyas as part of Kulinism, but the majority of sources don't for obvious reasons! In case you need any further clarification, please let me know. Thanks, again for your efforts! Ekdalian (talk) 17:31, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Ekdalian some historians claimed some Brahmins and Kayasthas created this migration story to permanent the kulin status. For your information kulinism only exist in kulajis(Abecedare also corrected that and wrote is said to be introduced). Historians got the knowledge of kulinism from the kulajis of Brahmins, Baidyas and Kayasthas. But some unknown reason you removed Kumkum Chatterjee's source claiming this. Loudsheer (talk) 17:44, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

I am still reading up on the topic and so will desist from opining further on if and how Baidyas should mentioned in this article for now. But a question I have is whether this article should focus on "who the kulinas are" or "what the practice of kulinism is"? Given the article title and in order to prevent redundancy wrt content covered in Kulin Kayastha and Kulin Brahmin, my preference would be the latter. If we all can agree on the subject of the article and the best sources, then it's just a relatively simple matter of summarizing those sources, which may involve expanding, rewording, re-ordering the current content. Abecedare (talk) 17:48, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Sources and quotes

Hey Ekdalian you could have simply asked me for the quote instead of reverting me, anyway, this is the quote:

Kulin: Good family from the three upper castes of Brahmin, Vaidya and Kayastha.

Loudsheer (talk) 14:26, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Isn't it too vague to be cited? Simply a glossary like definition without any context! Ekdalian (talk) 14:40, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

• Stub-Class Hinduism articles
• Low-importance Hinduism articles