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This page contains discussions that have been archived from Village pump (policy). Please do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to revive any of these discussions, either start a new thread or use the talk page associated with that topic.

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WP:MASSCREATE and WP:MEATBOT

Both shortcuts are within the bot policy and suggest that they apply for permission for their edits here. I suggest that the top 20 of the article creators are included in the denomination of masscreating editors and they should apply for permission there. In a RFC of 2009, (also at the village pump (policy)), the article number that classifies for masscreation was not really defined, but 25-50 was not opposed. Yet also the ones who created more than 25-50 didn't apply for permission, with one of the prominent cases being Lugnuts, which in my opinion is a deplorable loss, because his investment of time to wikipedia was huge. If his and also of others energy could have been guided to a calmer area, they'd likely still edit (under their original accounts).

They could anyway have been requested to apply for permission per WP:MEATBOT (about bot-like editing), but that policy doesn't seem to have been observed or enforced when the several discussions on masscreation began. Many of the masscreating editors are lost to Misplaced Pages, and I'd say it is not only their fault, but in part also our fault because we were not able not guide them to a more cooperative way of editing.

In order to prevent further very long discussions, I believe it would be good to just enforce WP:MEATBOT and amend WP:MASSCREATE to the top 20 article creators of the month. If one enters the top 20, they must apply per MASSCREATE, if one edits bot-like and is able to create several articles within a few minutes or two hours they shall apply per MEATBOT.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 09:08, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

You are conflicting a few things here. WP:MEATBOT doesn't mean we treat all fast edits and lots of changes as being a bot. It talks of disruptive editing, and if it's done quickly, it makes no difference if done by a bot or by hand, and WP:MASSCREATE is talking about specifically using automated or semi-automated tools. If someone is making lots of articles with the use of tools, then they need to fill out at BRFA. If they are creating poor or disruptive articles, then they need to be raised at ANI or another noticeboard. We don't simply create policy to penalise good faith article creation, see WP:NOTBURO Lee Vilenski 09:29, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

What do @you think of amending MASSCREATE to top 20 article creators instead of only the ones who create 25 - 50 a day? Paradise Chronicle (talk) 10:40, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

What would be the point of that? Thryduulf (talk) 13:58, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

To prevent long discussions as we had with Carlossuarez and Lugnuts? Future examples might become Adamtt9 or Pvmoutside, both editors who are in the top 20. Adamtt9 creates articles contrary to

WP:NOTDATABASE, WP:NOSTATS or WP:NOTMIRROR, are poorly sourced with databases not independent to the subject. See here, sourced with that mirror/database, here sourced to that mirror/database, and here sourced to that mirror/database, all in the general references and not as inline citation. There is probably also no inline citation, I am not sure if a game between ATP number 180 with 150 is notable enough for any WP:RS. Pvmoutside creates technical micro stubs on species in danger, withholding the info that they are species in danger, see here, here and here. Nirmaljoshi is number 3 and created 19 stubs on dams in Japan within 2 and half hours after they were told to stop to create them here. Sakiv is another one, they create articles on football seasons usually full of tables contrary to WP:NOTDATABASE and WP:NOSTATS, see here, here and here. Why start an ANI discussion for each of them

?(talk) 19:12, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

? We could just formalize MASSCREATION and then there would be less discussions.16:21, 21 March 2023 (UTC) Paradise Chronicle (talk) 16:21, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Courtesy pings to Adamtt9, Nirmaljoshi, Pvmoutside and Sakiv. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 16:26, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Regarding the species in danger comment, I reviewed the three articles referenced. The first two are referenced properly and according to the IUCN are categorized as least concern, so I'm not sure what the editor is trying to say, the third article I did not create...Pvmoutside

You sure also created the third one, just check here. And least concern... ok and? they are still on the red list and the infobox should be a summary of the article in which you usually do not mention the red list as far as I have noticed.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 21:49, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

The reference point has been corrected...Pvmoutside (talk) 01:26, 23 March 2023 (UTC).

Uhhh, I want to correct myself. I didn't know that least concern means no concern as I figured that if they are included in the red list for threatened species they are in danger. Apparently it's not like that and I apologize. I still see those articles as taggable, let's say for too technical as they are full of latin names and acronyms and would support the removal of autopatrolled from Pvmoutside. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 07:47, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

No? Where do we state a figure for how much one can create? MASSCREATE talks about using tools. If someone wants to create hundreds of articles that are all well cited, there is no issue. Lee Vilenski 14:23, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Tools for semi-automation would include things like boilerplate text - a necessity for anyone who is creating dozens of articles per day. WP:MEATBOT would also apply, which doesn't require any tools to have been used.

However, I agree that this proposal isn't the route forward; defining mass creation solely in terms of the most prolific editors is too inflexible and will likely exclude many mass creators, and may include a couple of editors who don't engage in mass creation. BilledMammal (talk) 15:35, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

At Masscreate it says any large-scale automated or semi-automated content page creation task must be approved by the BRFA. It is the first phrase. Since no-one seems to have been approved, no-one seems to have applied for the rights even though they surpassed the mentioned unopposed threshold and we are having very long discussions on stub creations, I thought it might help narrowing it down to the 20 most prolific ones. But if not even they can be included, who will, and then also what's the sense of having such a policy? To be included in the top 20, doesn't have to be seen as a punishment, and it is also not meant as a punishment, the amendment is meant to regulate the masscreation of articles, so the ones that are good at it, can be shown as the examples to follow to the ones who are not yet so good at it, and this before having created hundreds or even thousands of articles. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 20:10, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

What are the actual problems with the individual articles that these editors are creating (ignoring how, when and by whom they were created)? If you cannot identify any specific problems that apply to at least the majority of the articles created, and explain how classifying them as mass-created would address those problems, then all this is a waste of time.

Looking at a random recent creation (Charles Connor (actor)) by the editor at the head of that list (Lord Cornwallis) I can't see any issues. Thryduulf (talk) 22:03, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

It specifically says "automated". You are trying to make any user who creates a lot of articles need to fill out a BRFA, giving examples of people who create poor articles. All this policy is designed to do is make more work for someone actually making non-automated articles - and if they are making them badly, they'd hardly put in enough time to do a bot request form. Lee Vilenski 22:15, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

@Lee Vilenski. It says semi-automated and underneath comes

WP:MEATBOT which includes semi-automated bot-like editing. You are not fit for crat-ship if you can't properly cite policy. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 23:33, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

That simply isn't true. MEATBOT talks about disruptive bot like editing. It DOES NOT suggest that all edits that are done quickly are bot edits, nor that they are disruptive However, merely editing quickly, particularly for a short time, is not by itself disruptive. That is the bit where this falls down. This proposal suggests that all users who create lots of articles (regardless of quality) should in fact be treated like a bot, and made to fill in a form.

This is also something that is already easy to deal with with existing policy. Is the user using tools? Yes - get them to fill out the form. No? Well, are the articles disruptive, or of poor quality? Yes - report to ANI, other noticeboard, or their talk. They'll soon stop, or gain a block. No? Well, I don't really see the issue. If I wanted to create 30 articles tomorrow that were all well sourced? I don't really see what the issue is, nor would I expect someone to come along and tell me that I need to put in paperwork and become a bot.

Thank you for the personal attack, please refrain from doing these in future. Lee Vilenski 07:09, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Yeah I am not sure if that was a personal attack or a personal point of view. I'd be glad to learn what was you see as a personal attack. You are an admin and like a politician public figure you should be receptive to criticism.

Anyway, while you are right that it is mentioned that for a short while it is not disruptive some of the Masscreators edit high speed on long term. Some like Pvmoutside are editing high speed since years. And if the short term is the one where my suggestion fails, the opposite which would be long term is where I should have your support.

Then I'll also copy paste this part of WP:MEATBOT and then all can decide for themselves.

Editors who choose to use semi-automated tools to assist their editing should be aware that processes which operate at higher speeds, with a higher volume of edits, or with less human involvement are more likely to be treated as bots. If there is any doubt, you should make a bot approval request. In such cases, the Bot Approvals Group will determine whether the full approval process and a separate bot account are necessary.

It doesn't say the edits have to be disruptive in order to apply, just that they have to be high speed enough and their edits can be treated as bot-like editing which applies to several of the top 20 article creators. The title of the shortcut MEATBOT is Bot-like editing and that it is mainly focused on disruptive editing can be a point of view, but one I do not share.

And I don't believe to start an ANI discussion for each masscreating editor I do not agree with is a good idea,Paradise Chronicle (talk) 22:42, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

You may want to peruse the recent WP:ACAS. Yes, our current rules don't address mass creation without problems and without the use of tools, and that's not ideal. A big problem seems to be some fundamental disagreements about what, exactly, the problems are when it comes to mass creation and how to define it... — Rhododendrites \\ 16:48, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

@Rhododendrites I took part in that WP:ACAS discussion, which was one of the many discussions on masscreation and no satisfying solution came out of it. Discussions go on.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 19:41, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

That was pointed out on my talk page, yes. I assumed you didn't see it because you referenced a 2009 RfC but not the one we just had on this topic (a long one that took a lot of time with, as you point out, no real solution). Not saying that should be the end of it -- it just seemed worth mentioning is all. NBD. — Rhododendrites \\ 22:16, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

@Rhododendrites Why does creation (mass or otherwise) without problems need addressing? Thryduulf (talk) 22:04, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't know that it does, except insofar as there have been a lot of people who claim the existing guidance does apply, should apply in spirit, or otherwise operate as though we have rules that we do not have. My "not ideal" is just about clarity/common understanding. — Rhododendrites \\ 22:16, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

The number one editor on this list produced an average of just over four articles per day. Any of us could sit down and spend 15-20 minutes sketching out a reasonable rudimentary article on a missing notable figure, and thereby create four articles in a day, with nothing even close to resembling mass-editing. BD2412 T 22:53, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Then if the two admins here stonewall my suggestions, how can we apply those policies? If it's not the top 20 or editors who perform semiautomated edits, then who? You are the admins, you should know. Or are you all hoping to block the next one instead of finding solution for them? Be a bit constructive here.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 23:54, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't know if this adds to the discussion, but a few years ago the Tree of Life Project had a bot called Polbot which created many species pages, but was ended when many of those pages needed corrections....Pvmoutside (talk) 00:24, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

The following question was proposed previously, but a discussion on it was never opened due to the cancellation of the ArbCom mandated RfC. It might be worth revisiting?

Which proposed definition of mass creation should we adopt?
Please rank your choices by listing them in order of preference from most preferred to least preferred. Preferences, weighted by strength of argument, will be resolved through IRV.
A: A single editor creating a large number of articles based on boilerplate text and referenced to the same small group of sources.
B: A single editor creating more than 100 articles based on boilerplate text and referenced to the same small group of sources.
C: A single editor, creating more than 10 articles per day, 20 articles per week or 50 articles per month, based on boilerplate text and referenced only to the same small group of sources.
D: None of the above

BilledMammal (talk) 00:26, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

C.

The large number of A is too vague.

In B 100 articles are meant in total or per minute? If this is not clarified the ones who prefer not to apply will find any excuse. And I doubt if boiler plate should be mentioned as then a possible answer would be that they edit micro stubs manually for days and then publish all at once within a few minutes like I already read before. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 02:38, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

100 means in total; previous discussion has suggested that boilerplate is necessary, both because it can be determined by reviewing the articles, and because there is agreement that mass creation isn't simply due to the rate of creation but what is created. BilledMammal (talk) 02:43, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the explanation and also the constructive suggestion. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 15:52, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

@Paradise Chronicle you still haven't explained what problem you want to solve. Until you can do that everything else is pointless. What do you want to achieve by applying MASSCREATE? What benefit will doing so bring to the encyclopaedia? It's worth noting that as far as I can tell from a quick glance, none of the suggested definitions BilledMammal would apply to Lord Cornwallis' articles because they are not based on boilerplate text. Thryduulf (talk) 00:50, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

I have explained above, but you probably didn't read. The aim is to prevent long discussions in the future as we had in the past with Lugnuts and other editors. I believe if editors apply at BRFA, we can show examples to the ones who create deficient stubs. I'd say Lord Cornwallis and I believe also Moonswimmer and Esculenta for sure (articles are rather good) could serve as examples to show to editors who also want to masscreate articles. But since no-one is interested in that I thought it would be interesting to know how the policies on masscreate and meatbot can be applied. If no-one knows we can also just abolish them, then also no-one will have the idea to bring them up. Either show a way how to apply it or abolish it. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 02:16, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

@Thryduulf, I think the motivation is "drama prevention" rather than anything about the articles or the creation – like if we were to write down that "Mass creation applies to the creation of six or more articles per hour, except during a new moon, when the rate is lowered to one article per hour, unless you have reviewed five extra DYKs during the last 90 days, in which case the usual rate limits apply", and another rule that says "If someone claims mass creation when the creation rate is approved by this tool, then the first three editors who notice this are entitled to post 'Liar, liar, pants on fire' on the editor's talk page", then we won't have l-o-o-o-n-g discussions about whether creating two articles that I dislike is "mass creation" instead of "a violation of all that is right and decent".

However, given that I see editors who persist in claim "original research" for material that is both verifiable and cited, I am not convinced. Maybe if we give them another badname they'd switch to that eventually.

Paradise, the problem with "top 20" is that if editor #20 has created 1,000 articles ever, then:

• I can do whatever I want for the first 999 articles, including flooding the review queues with 999 articles in the space of 999 minutes, but
• if I create just one article per week, then after ~20 years, I'm going to have to get permission from the bot folks to do something that is obviously not bot-like editing.

You need to have a rate limit on it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:27, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing, the Top 20 are only for 2022, not for the last 20 years. And also, Misplaced Pages can develop towards quality, as it happened in many areas of Misplaced Pages. I believe this development will also come to article creation but maybe I am just a bit ahead of time. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 07:01, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Based on a rolling 12-month period or on the previous calendar year?

It doesn't make sense to tell someone that they were in the top 20 last time, so creating even one article now requires extra permission. And it might not make sense anyway, because what if I create hundreds or thousands of redirects, but someone expands those into real articles? Our tools detect that as being a real article (now), so it would count someone else's article creation "against" my limit, unless you did a manual review, which is not really helping.

And it doesn't address the practical problem with mass creation, which is flooding the review queues. It does not matter what the overall limit is, if you say I can do whatever I want for the first ____ articles, including flooding the review queues with ____ articles in the space of ____ minutes will always be a problem unless ____ is a sufficiently low number that the reviewers can handle the burst of activity (generally accepted as 25 to 50 per day). WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:34, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Then let's turn it around. What kind of editor would have to apply at BRFA as suggested by MASSCREATE and MEATBOT? So far none seems to have applied for and none was given the rights even though they have created more than 25-50 articles per day or used semiautomated tools for their article creations. I have asked this already before but no answer so far. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 19:04, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Paradise Chronicle, I think the rule should be that you apply at BRFA if your future plans will produce a level of articles that the community expects to cause problems for the Misplaced Pages:New pages patrol. That level has been set at 25 to 50 articles per day for many years. I would personally reduce it slightly, to say something like "25 to 50 articles per day day, or a total of more than 300 articles per month", but other editors would probably choose other numbers. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:26, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

300 a month only one has created in 2022, so this would just raise the level instead of reducing it. I'd support a WP:MEATBOT approach that if articles are seemingly faster created than for example video link for the worlds fastest typists (ca. 200 words per minute) like creating several articles within a few minutes or 25 per day its considered semi-automated editing and worth of a review. It's not supposed to punish editors, but much more to regulate masscreation and show editors who like to masscreate articles what the community believes is good for wikipedia and what kind of editing raised concerns. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 21:56, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

The classification for Mass creation (in which 100 created articles in total are seen as a sign for masscreation) produced by BilledMammal is also interesting and has also not received much feedback either.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 22:05, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

In re this would just raise the level instead of reducing it: Does the number of articles that individuals are permitted to create actually need to be reduced? Are there still any editors who like to masscreate articles around? If not, why should we write down a rule to ban something that nobody is doing any more?

It's not sensible to say "More than a decade ago, Lugnuts created ~100,000 articles. I think his quality was poor, so I decree that editors who want to create one thousandth as many articles as him must get special written permission first." WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:08, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes. I've been trying to compel them to request permission as required by WP:MASSCREATE, and in some cases I have been successful (with the result never being a consensus in favor of mass creation), but many ignore the requests. BilledMammal (talk) 18:11, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

MASSCREATE requires people to request permission for >50 articles per day. 100 per lifetime would be a substantial reduction from that.

@Paradise Chronicle, I see that you have created more than 300 articles. That is more than 100 in total. Are you a mass creator? Do you think that Misplaced Pages needs to be protected from you? Should you be getting special permission for every article you want to create in the future? WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:32, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

I wouldn't call me a mass creator in the current meaning. But I support the 100 article bar and would apply for permission if it came through. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 19:30, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

I want you to imagine yourself explaining Misplaced Pages's processes to someone in your real life, and saying something like this:

"I want to create one article this month. Now, if I were a new editor and didn't know what I was doing, I'd just click here and do it. But I'm experienced, so have to jump through bureaucratic hoops first. I'll have to write up a description, identify my planned sources, and get written permission. By the time you consider writing the request and all the people reading and replying, applying will take more time from the community than creating the article. Of course, a newcomer wouldn't like this; we only impose this on people who have experience with creating articles."

Do you think they would consider that to be sensible or silly? WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:41, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Today, it only concerns editors who crossed the bar of 25-50 articles a day or used semi-automated tools for their article creation. The semi-automated is mainly mentioned since the 25-50 was ignored in the past. I do not believe the result of the Lugnuts and the Carlossuarez discussions is the one editors hoped for when they began editing. The Lugnuts articles were sourced well enough when they were created, but not anymore later. I believe the rules and guidelines will eventually get enforced, as it's not really informative to have heaps of unexplained, unsourced statistics and micro stubs of a few words or phrases. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 06:25, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

@Paradise Chronicle, I think you would hold a different view if you had been around back in the day. Please click this link and open, say, 10 tabs: nostalgia:Special:Random. That's what editors hoped for when they began editing. That's what they were doing. If you'd like to see some of the best, then try the equivalent of Featured Articles. Clicking through the first five, I see: one with ASCII art but no references; one with a general reference; two with suggested sources but no refs; and one with no sources mentioned at all.

If you're interested in learning more about the early days, then nostalgia:What Misplaced Pages is not might also be interesting. Also, if you see a page title that says /Talk at the end, that's what turned into talk pages. Before that (and even concurrently with it), editors just dumped their comments in the article page, at the bottom of the page. Namespaces weren't a thing back when Misplaced Pages was started. Talk pages were invented by Misplaced Pages.

And, more generally, when you think about saying I do not believe the result ... is the one editors hoped for when they began editing, you might want to pause and consider whether that statement should be re-written as I do not believe the result ... is the one I hoped for when I began editing. Since you started editing (your prior account) in 2018, you likely have a very different view of what's reasonable than the folks who were editing in 2003, or even in 2013. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:21, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, your reply sort of proves my point in a way that Misplaced Pages developed for the better. I do not believe you'll find consensus to go back to 2005 where "FAs" were able to be unsourced. In small wikis this is still possible but the English one is sort of a reference for the majority of the world which makes it one of the first hits on google and similar search engines all over the world. My suggestion is that Misplaced Pages develops further from quantity to quality but at the moment, consensus will not be found for that. And no, I meant what I wrote, and I believe you agree as well. Nor I, Lugnuts, Carlossuarez and the majority of other the editors partaking in the discussions were expecting that such a heap of poorly sourced content was able to exist and grow on Misplaced Pages when they began editing.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 18:16, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

It actually doesn't need to be reduced if the policies were enforced, but admins find any kind of excuses in order not to apply them. 25-50 a day most of the top 10 have created so far, very likely all use semiautomated processes. To apply for permission is not meant to ban masscreation, one can create 100 a day and for as long as they want, but please masscreate informative articles, not stubs with a few phrases or full of statistics.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 19:52, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

How frequently did the top 10 exceed 50 articles in one day?

(Note the NOTSTATS only bans "unexplained" stats.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:43, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Why don't you ask for Semiautomated? I just believe that Misplaced Pages guidelines will develop towards quality instead of quantity as it did in the past. There would be also other policies that would apply, like WP:NOTMIRROR or WP:NOTPROMO for statistics mainly or only sourced to databases (not independent of the article subject). But I see the resistence of applying MASSCREATE and MEATBOT, so I guess its a matter of patience.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 07:37, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Proving that someone exceeded 50 article creations on the same day is easy. Proving that they used an off-wiki tool requires either mind reading or intrusive surveillance, neither of which I'm good at. Consequently, I'm asking for the thing that really could be enforced (in software, if necessary). WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:23, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Just came here to mention that a similar discussion was held here, where some standards were purposed for articles specific to the Dams. I think at the end, it boils down to the quality of article , not the quantity of article. Each project's articles should be discussed on the specific project group because you can find the concerned experts there and can decide on the quality, standards and overall assessment. After all one cannot be an expert in everything. Best regards!nirmal (talk) 02:11, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

My opinion is that the problem could be mitigated by banning the creation of stubs. If an article on a subject doesn't have at least, say, 250 words or an equivalent number of bytes then it doesn't belong in the encyclopedia. Maybe stubs should be relegated to the wiki dictionary or some other site. Smallchief (talk) 16:21, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

An encyclopaedic stub and a dictionary entry are not at all similar, and suggest you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the purposes of Misplaced Pages and/or Wiktionary. That does not lend favour to your proposal. Thryduulf (talk) 16:59, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

@Smallchief Great idea the one with the wiktionary. I have/had a similar idea. I thought that if one is not able to word out 10 phrases on a subject, it's not notable enough for wikipedia. As for me it's not enough to add a source, but also the information to the article that is in the source. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 17:43, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes you are right. There @Nirmaljoshi was told not to create more stubs on dams but create Lists on dams in Japanese administrative divisions. Result? Nirmaljoshi created 19 stubs in 2 1/2 hours on the 1 March. That's the kind of discussions I'd like to prevent.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 17:54, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

No, there was not any clear outcome. Please read the discussion properly. Anyway, in the dam related article, one guy hijacked the process and I left on him to move forward.nirmal (talk) 01:28, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree with you that there was no proper closure, but as to me the replies with the strongest arguments were the ones that supported List of Dams articles (comparable to the Lists of Dams in the USA). And your suggestion of a certain professional criteria per ICOLD is good as well, but not one of your dams created on the 1 of March I checked fulfills your own criteria of 1 Million Cubic capacity. Or maybe you can explain how lower numbers still fit in the ICOLD criteria?Paradise Chronicle (talk) 02:31, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

The top 20 article creators in that query generally have a volume of article creations (single digits of articles per day) that could easily be attained by someone hand-crafting and hand-typing individual articles rather than using any automation for these articles. That is not what MASSCREATE and MEATBOT are about. So this proposal seems to me to be missing the point. —David Eppstein (talk) 05:43, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Little update, Esculenta was now blocked for one month for using AI for article creation per MEATBOT. I have actually asked them to apply for article creation at the BRFA in March but they didn't apply. They were blocked without my direct involvement in the discussions and I would have preferred for them to apply at the BRFA instead of being blocked. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 07:47, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

I’ve read the entire thread above a couple of times. My feeling is I’d rather wait till individual editors do something disruptive and then take action against them if it’s needed. I don’t think we need a policy to cover everything anyone might do, and I think long discussions about individuals’ editing, if they’re needed, are absolutely fine. Mccapra (talk) 08:23, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Seems to me that the problem is best solved by demanding better quality from article creators. The solution is to have a policy that a newly created article must contain a minimum text of 200 words and be footnoted with at least one reliable source.Smallchief (talk) 11:16, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

I certainly would prefer a requirement for quality in new articles, and suggested one in the RfC on mass creation, but it was ignored. The community certainly seems to be focused on limiting quantity rather than requiring quality as an answer to dealing with mass creation of poorly sourced stubs. Donald Albury 13:06, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, so many of these problems would be completely solved by requiring at least one piece of SIGCOV in SIRS for GNG-based articles to avoid draftification/userfication. Then we wouldn't even need the creator to actually write prose in the article. JoelleJay (talk) 16:57, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Good idea. The main problem with these stubs is that they're hard to expand, and this would begin to address that — DFlhb (talk) 17:47, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Proposed definition (MASSCREATE and MEATBOT)

As an initial draft I propose replacing the current text of WP:MASSCREATE with the following:

Any large-scale automated or semi-automated content page creation must be approved at Misplaced Pages:Bots/Requests for approval.

For the purpose of this policy the use of any tools that replace, in part or in whole, the manual work required to create an article will be considered automated or semi-automated creation. These tools include, but are not limited to, the following: For the purpose of this policy use any of the following tools will be considered automated or semi-automated creation. This list is not exhaustive and it is possible to engage in mass creation without the use of any of these tools.

• Large language models (eg. ChatGPT)
• Boilerplate text
• AutoWikiBrowser

When determining whether creations are done at a large scale only the cumulative number should be considered; the rate of creation is not relevant. There is no set definition of "large scale", although anything more than 25 or 50 is likely to be so. Creating articles without the use of tools, regardless of the scale or rate, is not considered mass creation, although WP:MEATBOT still applies.

All mass-created articles (except those not required to meet WP:GNG) must cite at least one source which would plausibly contribute to GNG, that is, which constitutes significant coverage in an independent reliable secondary source.

As defined this won't affect the average editor who is manually creating articles. Further, clarifying and enforcing the definition will benefit the community in two ways.

1. For mass creation that is constructive and that the community would approve of, it will provide an opportunity for the community to suggest modifications to produce better articles; it is easier to improve an entire set of mass created articles at the start of the process than it is to do so after the articles have been created.
2. For mass creation that is not constructive, such as the mass creation of geostubs by Carlossuarez46, it will allow the community to intervene before the scale of the problem becomes a significant burden on the community.

We consider the cumulative number, not the rate, because the issues mass creation can cause are related solely to the number of articles created, not the rate they are created at. It is possible for mass creation done at a low rate to result in greater issues than mass creation done at a high rate because detecting low rates of mass creation is more difficult and thus can result in a greater number of pages that the community must deal with. BilledMammal (talk) 09:20, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

There are multiple problems with this. Firstly, the rate of creation is relevant. If I create 51 articles in 365 days using one of those methods that would not cause anybody any problems at all yet would be prohibited by your definition, yet creating 1000 articles in 10 days without using "tools" might or might not be covered (see below) despite being likely problematic.

I say "might or might not" because the proposal is contradictory :

• Any large-scale automated or semi-automated content page creation must be approved and
• it is possible to engage in mass creation without the use of any of these tools., yet
• Creating articles without the use of tools, regardless of the scale or rate, is not considered mass creation.

The third bullet point contradicts the first two.

Finally, you seem to have ignored much of the discussion above regarding what is and isn't problematic. Thryduulf (talk) 09:37, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

The third bullet point doesn't contradict the first two. If you aren't using any tools then you aren't engaged in automated or semi-automated creation. However, I've reworded the second bullet point.

For manual large scale creation, like your example of 1000 articles in 10 days, I don't believe we can or should address it. I don't believe we should because the issues caused are different, and because we can address those issues under other policies - the community can easily handle an editor manually creating 1000 problematic articles in 10 days under WP:DE.

I don't believe we can because any attempt to do so will make it more likely that this policy will apply to editors who have the reasonable expectation that it won't because they are not using any tools in their editing; per the discussion above, which I haven't ignored, this is something that must be avoided.

If I create 51 articles in 365 days using one of those methods that would not cause anybody any problems at all yet would be prohibited by your definition It wouldn't be prohibited; it would just require you to go through BRFA, where approval should be quick if no issues exist. However, issues can exist for even smaller levels of mass creation. For example if you want to create 51 articles with ChatGPT I think community oversight would be a very good idea.

I also think that such an example would be extremely rare or even non-existent; how many editors engage in semi-automated or automated creation of articles but stop at 51 or a similarly small number? Do you have any examples? BilledMammal (talk) 10:12, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Editors need to seek permission to upload files and create categories? I've seen some poorly thought out categorization schemes where I wish the editors creating the categories would have consulted somewhere about creating them. But requiring editors to seek permission to create more than 25 pages in their Misplaced Pages careers is ridiculous Are disambiguation pages and redirects included too? Plantdrew (talk) 16:31, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

That aspect is taken directly from the current WP:MASSCREATE policy. It also would only apply to automated or semi-automated activities; as most editors create categories and upload files manually it wouldn't apply to them. In line with the current policy, it wouldn't apply to redirects but it would apply to dab pages. BilledMammal (talk) 17:04, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose due to the "rate doesn't matter" and inclusion of boilerplate text. — Rhododendrites \\ 14:15, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Boilerplate text is standard in most articles as they tend to have a common structure and phrasing. Templates are commonly created for the purpose and are used extensively. Andrew🐉(talk) 12:33, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Notes (MASSCREATE and MEATBOT)

1. "Content page" means any page designed to be viewed by readers through the mainspace. These include articles, most visible categories, files hosted on Misplaced Pages, mainspace editnotices, and portals.

Alternative proposal: Move MASSCREATE out of BOTPOL

As I've looked at recent discussions around WP:MASSCREATE, I've become convinced that these are being hampered by that being a part of WP:Bot policy. It seems to me that the community wants to concern itself with mass creation in general, without regard for whether it's automated, semi-automated, or fully manual. WP:MEATBOT can help there, but that can only stretch so far—if you get to the point where "boilerplate text" might include Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Layout, you've probably gone too far.

Additionally, the bot policy can't legitimately say much about how non-bots should go about getting approval. MEATBOT is mainly about enforcement, not approval. In the recent RFC, a proposal to require BRFAs for mass-creation approval was rejected, and BAG does not seem to want it there either.

So how about it? Should the community move WP:MASSCREATE to some other policy, or to a policy page of its own? Mass creations by bot would still also be subject to WP:BOTPOL and WP:BRFA for the bot aspect, but the new policy would be freed from having to imply that all mass creations are somehow bot activity. Anomie⚔ 12:17, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

@Anomie Don't think it is big enough to be a stand alone policy, but it certainly doesn't need to be in BOTPOL (got somewhere else it could be merged?); botpol should reference wherever it ends up as a reminder to BAG/operators that bots that want to do that not only need to be approved as a bot, but ensure they have whatever community support is needed to exempt them from that policy. — xaosflux 13:31, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

It might expand a bit once released from the constraint of being ostensibly about bots. But my main goal is to establish a consensus to move it out of BOTPOL since it really no longer fits there, where exactly it ends up I'm happy to leave to others to decide later. I agree that WP:Bot policy#Mass page creation should remain as a stub. Anomie⚔ 13:59, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

A layout guide can't be boilerplate text, but apart from that I think you make a good point - even if we decide to exclude fully manual mass creation from its scope it is better for MASSCREATE to be outside BOTPOL. We would need to replace the reference to BRFA; I think instructing editors to get community consensus at VPR would be a good replacement.

The best target I can see to merge it to would be Misplaced Pages:Editing policy, but I think it is better off as a standalone policy; it would be one of the shorter policies we have, but there are several of comparable or lesser length such as WP:IAR and WP:STRONGPASS. If it is made a standalone policy I think the best classification for it would be as a procedural policy; the same classification as BOTPOL. BilledMammal (talk) 13:50, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose for the record. Huge change to the policy needs a formal RfC, but also there's not enough of a proposal here to explain what it would say when moved out of the bot policy. — Rhododendrites \\ 14:15, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
  • 🙄 Do you actually oppose the idea of moving it at all? Or are you just "opposing" because you want a 100% fleshed-out proposal instead of a check for whether it's worth the time making one? Anomie⚔ 01:19, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
    • Moving it isn't really what's happening (or not the meaningful part). This is completely redefining what "mass creation" is to include some as-yet undefined kind of mass creation that applies to totally manual editing. Simply moving it doesn't actually change anything, but changing the way it just talks about automated or semi-automated editing is, and that needs a fully fleshed out proposal. — Rhododendrites \\ 22:30, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
      • As far as I'm concerned, this proposal would indeed be satisfied by moving the existing text with zero changes to some other location. And I agree with you that actually making changes to the policy would require specific discussion about those changes. I disagree with your assertion that simply moving it wouldn't change anything: it would change the context, and that's exactly the point. "It's in the bot policy so it can only apply to bots" is in the way of those discussions, causing them (like the sections above) to have to try to stretch WP:MEATBOT to cover clearly non-bot edits and to somehow involve BRFA in the approval process for these not-actually-automated creations. Anomie⚔ 12:57, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

So I took a look at all the policies that User:Anomie has noted, and it seems to me that there should be a small subsection in Misplaced Pages:Editing policy which explains some basics about bot editing and about semi-automated editing (meatbot), and even WP:FAITACCOMPLI. Automated editing wasn't that big of a deal in Misplaced Pages's early days, but now we even have semi-automated editing options integrated into Misplaced Pages. I think we're doing a diservice to our editors if we don't at least point to where to find more information on these things, without relying on a bottom-of-the-page navbox. - jc37 13:35, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

What is and isn't part of a country on Misplaced Pages?

I notice that Crimea is considered a Ukrainian territory on Misplaced Pages, as the United Nations voted to not recognize Russia's land grabs.

Yet at the same time, the first line on the Taiwan article is "Taiwan is a country", while Taiwan is not recognized as such by the UN.

Why is that? Synotia (moan) 16:56, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

The stance of the UN is one factor that might be considered, but it's not a deciding factor. We go by what the mainstream position is in WP:reliable sources. If you look at the footnote next to "is a country", it lists several reliable sources that describe Taiwan as a country. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 17:06, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

I suspect that if you looked for Chinese-language sources, the opposite would be the consensus. You might understand what I mean? Synotia (moan) 17:07, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Not really a policy issue, this. Selfstudier (talk) 17:10, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Because other stuff exists, and WP:CONSENSUS. Each situation is determined individually, and there have been discussions on both individually have led to the current texts on Misplaced Pages. If you wish for one to be consider as another for either one, it is best to open a discussion on talk page of the article of the one you want to change. – robertsky (talk) 17:11, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

I would also note that we have articles on both the Russian province of Crimea (Republic of Crimea) and the Ukrainian province of Crimea (Autonomous Republic of Crimea) in the same way we have articles on the province of Taiwan in the ROC (Taiwan Province) and the province of Taiwan in the PRC (Taiwan Province, People's Republic of China). There is also a fundamental difference between the two disputes you list, in that Taiwan claims itself to be an independent nation while Crimea does not. Curbon7 (talk) 17:28, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Because you can't backdoor your way into overriding consensus by trying to invent a rule. If you think the wording of an article should be changed, get your evidence together, go to the article talk page, lay out your evidence, and let others do the same. If other people have stronger evidence than you do, there's no rule or policy that should change that. --Jayron32 18:35, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

As others have pointed out, this is a really complicated question, with no universally correct answer. I used to work for a network management company. Our product was the kind of thing that put up a big world map showing the status of all your data centers, communication links, etc. We had multiple versions of the base map, showing countries labeled in whatever way was not going to offend a particular customer. -- RoySmith (talk) 16:36, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Toponymy is the politics of naming and often different state/actors have competing interests. Misplaced Pages doesn’t take a position but tries to summarise different non-fringe/authoritative sources. Happy editing! ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 12:45, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Without commenting on the specific geopolitical issues raised here, I'll point out that in general, although we aim for NPOV, we do not always achieve it. Our articles often reflect an American or Western European point of view, because of our systemic bias. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 13:17, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

There has been a peaceful status quo in the dispute between the PRC and the ROC for over 70 years, and the Misplaced Pages article generally reflects that. There is a hot war in Ukraine, and the Misplaced Pages article reflects the status quo ante of the conflict. I don't see any contradiction here. Walt Yoder (talk) 19:41, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Would like to understand how Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#G8 applies to Templates?

Hi I am an editor from Chinese Wiki and my major interest is to move the templates from English Wiki to Chinese Wiki, so the people can build pages with minimal effort.

Currently I face one problem while moving templates. In English wiki there are some templates looks like a subpage (e.g. Template:NYCS_Platform_Layout_BMT_Brighton_Line/embankment and there is no main page for this template (Template:NYCS_Platform_Layout_BMT_Brighton_Line in this example). While I move the template from English wiki to Chinese wiki the bot triggered a speedy deletion alarm and the subpage template was deleted zh:Template:NYCS_Platform_Layout_BMT_Brighton_Line/embankment due to the speedy deletion rule. While chatting with other editors they said the Speedy deletion rule was inherited from G8:Subpages with no parent pagerule.

So I would like to understand how English wiki interpret the speedy deletion policy and how speedy deletion wouldn't apply to Template:NYCS_Platform_Layout_BMT_Brighton_Line/embankment? Thank you very much Winston (talk) 00:13, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

My understanding is that the "Subpages with no parent page" provision in WP:G8 can apply to templates, e.g. to delete components, docs, testcases alongside the main template. One example is Template:CBB Seasons Cat Header/Name conv. But the whole WP:G8 "excludes any page that is useful to Misplaced Pages", so it should not be used to delete helpful templates that can work on their own and not actually a subpage in the sense of being a component of a non-existent parent template, even if they are (perhaps inappropriately) titled as a subpage formally. ——HTinC23 (talk) 02:05, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

G8 is almost always invoked in template space only when the parent template is deleted at WP:TFD. A G8 otherwise would be quite suspect.

That said, our rules don't decide how zh works. OP should discuss there about how and why actions should be taken. IznoPublic (talk) 01:38, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

@Izno I totally agree that the en rules doesn't decide how zh works. And thanks for your comment.

I am looking at WP:TFD#REASONS and it seems that the subpage rules doesn't apply to templates, from the general application point of view. Winston (talk) 02:45, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

RfC: Non-free licensed files

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should full-size Creative Commons NC, ND, or NCND, or compatible, licensed files be allowed?

Context

Some files are classified as non-free by Misplaced Pages standards but are available under a license that permits educational, personal, or otherwise non-commercial use and/or prohibits derivative works. These include certain Creative Commons licenses.

The policy, as currently written, has a number of criteria that must be met in order for a non-free file to be used. One of these is the minimal extent of use which is further specified as "including usage of low-resolution, rather than high-resolution/fidelity/bit rate (especially where the original could be used for deliberate copyright infringement)". Bots enforce this provision by automatically resizing any files deemed too large.

The wmf:Resolution:Licensing policy is the ultimate authority in copyright matters. It authorizes projects to develop and adopt an Exemption Doctrine Policy consistent with the resolution, permitting "the upload of copyrighted materials that can be legally used in the context of the project". The proposed change is fully compatible with the resolution.

This proposal was discussed before here.

Rationale

Low-resolution requirement is in the policy solely because fair use compliance so requires. It is intended to reduce the reusability of the file, and so any adverse commercial impact our use would cause to the copyright holder. However, under these licenses, no fair use considerations are required.

We should always use free files when available, and this change would in no way affect that requirement. However, when we are given the option to either use the file under a claim of fair use and reduce its quality, or use it under a non-free license, we should choose the less bad alternative. To do otherwise would be a disservice to both our readers and re-users.

It would also better respect the wishes of the copyright holders: they want (and in case of ND explicitly require) us (and the general public) to use their works in their original form, but we are in fact forcibly altering them to a worse quality. I don't think we can even claim our use to be fair if, given the option to use unaltered files, we choose to alter it anyway and misrepresent its quality.

Best, CandyScythe (talk) 10:25, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

• No. The WMF Resolution on non-free images uses a definition of "free" that requires us to allow end users to redistribute and modify images regardless of their type (commercial or not). While we could use licenses like CC-ND or CC-NC at full size, end users cannot. So we have to treat these as non-free and offer low resolution versions that end users likely have a better chance to use under a fair use allowance on their end. --Masem (t) 13:52, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

  We really have to balance the interests of our readers, different types of re-users, and copyright holders. I think it's undisputed that readers come first, and that they would be better served with higher-quality files. Non-commercial re-users would also benefit. What is fair use for Misplaced Pages is most often not for a commercial re-user, so most of those would already be unable to use those files. In the rare case that someone would be unable to legally re-use files because of their high quality, re-sizing them like we already routinely do would be trivial for them. It would be strange to sacrifice all the potential benefits to protect a small subclass of our re-users from minor inconvenience. The WMF Resolution does in no way force us to do it, as it explicitly authorizes use of non-free files under an applicable rationale. Best, CandyScythe (talk) 14:37, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

  We have effectively "marching orders" from the WMF here. Unless you want to run your own servers and set the rules on what content we allow, we have to follow the resolution here and what counts as free or not. You're also effectively asking to create a third class of images outside free and non-free, and that would become a mess in creating all the necessarily policy and procedures for under the resolution. Masem (t) 15:18, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

  I think that you're confusing and diluting your your good explanation with the "Because WMF said so". If that were the only reason, then we'd need to tell WMF to change that. North8000 (talk) 17:18, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

  They own and pay for the servers. They get to make the rules here. Masem (t) 02:37, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

  Importantly, I believe it could not merely affect operation of servers, but interfere with contracts the WMF has with commercial partners (Google is paying the Wikimedia Foundation for better access to information – the Verge). — HTGS (talk) 05:59, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

• No It is a disservice to our readers and downstream users to create content that is not available under a fully free license. We are not the somewhat-free-encyclopedia. This would undermine the very idea of the free culture movement and make our licensing situation considerably more restrictive rather than permissive. We already have north of 700 thousand non-free files on this project. We don't need another category of somewhat-free files that will very likely balloon to such a huge figure itself. Absolutely not. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:06, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
• No Commercial uses are still uses, so non-commercial licences are a restriction on our users akin to fair use. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 16:09, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
• No Per reasons given by others. But thanks for the thought and bringing it up. North8000 (talk) 17:20, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
• Yes NC images are a good resource for our purpose and we should not hinder or obstruct their use in any way. It's best to capture the entire image in case the original should go down and be lost. I was looking for the source of an image the other day and found it had gone offline. Andrew🐉(talk) 17:50, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

  Misplaced Pages is not archive.org, archive.is or other archiving service. Use one of those to preserve the original of non-free images if they have not already done so. Doing so matches directly their mission and they have the infrastructure, policies, etc. in place to deal with such tasks better than we do (because it's only a tangential part of our mission). Additionally you can use them to preserve far more images more reliably than you could on Misplaced Pages, because images can and do get deleted here for many reasons. Thryduulf (talk) 20:42, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

• No per Masem's first comment. Files that have restrictions on commercial use and/or derivatives are not Free in the sense we use it on Misplaced Pages, and I see no benefit to creating a class of slightly less non-free images with all the added complexity, bureaucracy, policy and maintenance overhead that would entail. Thryduulf (talk) 20:38, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

  The only change required would be that if tagged with a "Non-free with NC and ND" template, it would also tell bots not to resize that file. I don't really see the bureaucracy argument. Best, CandyScythe (talk) 20:46, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

• No per others above. NC and ND conditions are not considered sufficiently free under the WMF resolution and so they should be treated under the same non-free content policy as other non-free images for reasons outlined above. -- Whpq (talk) 21:21, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
• No, per Masem et al. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 06:11, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
• No (or Oppose) mainly for the reasons given above, but also because this seems to be trying to carve a general exception to WP:JUSTONE for certain types of images when such a thing isn't really necessary. While it's true that WP:NFCC#3b (WP:IMAGERES) does require that non-free images, in principle, be "rescaled as small as possible", it does qualify that with "to still be useful as identified by their rationale, and no larger". This seems to allow for the possibility of a non-free image either not being fully rescaled or rescaled at all when doing so is deemed necessary to preserve it's encyclopedic value to readers. A file could be tagged with Template:Non-free no reduce if the uploader feels the any rescaling is not needed. The uploader could also rescale the image themselves to what they feel is the appropriate size before uploading it and then add the aforementioned template to prevent any further rescaling. There's also Template:Non-free manual reduce that can be used when excessive rescaling by bots is a concern. In any of these cases, there's no reason why disagreements over rescaling or appropriate image size can't be resolved through discussion at WP:FFD much in the same way that disagreements over the application of any of the other NFCCP are often resolved. For sure the burden would fall upon the uploader or whomever wants to image to remain at a certain size to establish a consensus in support of their position, but that's no different from how things currently are per WP:NFCCE. When it comes to free image licensing, Misplaced Pages for the most part seems to pretty much follow c:COM:L and c:COM:LJ, except it does so on a local level. Misplaced Pages and several other of the local Misplaced Pages's do allow some fair use content to be uploaded and user, but many others are like Commons and allow no fair use content at all. What this RFC is proposing (at least in my opinion) is to create a new category of image licensing that lies somewhere in between what would be considered free licenses and non-free licenses; in other words, a sort of hybrid-license that tries to apply parts of both WP:COPYOTHERS and WP:NFCC. That (at least in my mind) involves something much more that telling bots not to resize a file (which already can be done to some degree), and might even require running things pass the WMF to see whether it is OK with this new category of licensing. -- Marchjuly (talk) 11:41, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
• No The point of disallowing these licenses is that Misplaced Pages should be as free as possible to any downstream reuse while still respecting the creators. CC-BY-SA attributes the creators and allows unlimited downstream reuse so long as attribution is maintained. Once you put restrictions on reuse like NC or ND, that has unintended knock-on effects. --Jayron32 13:37, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Petition to remove appealing to Jimbo from the Arbitration Policy

Hi all, please see this petition to amend the arbitration policy to remove Jimbo Wales's ability to overturn ArbCom decisions, which needs a 100 signatures as per the formal amendment process. Galobtter (talk) 18:18, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! Signed it! Chaotic Enby (talk) 22:04, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Can we promote WP:Prodigy to a guideline?

This popped up because of a recent edit and I realized that this has been sitting as a draft for a very long time. There has been no substantive discussion of it in a while either, so I would like to propose that it be made a guideline as is. Mangoe (talk) 03:43, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

I have no strong opinion about this either way, but this thread reminded me of an old situation and encouraged me to put together this RFD. Graham87 08:57, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

This seems like a very specific circumstance to have its own guideline. If this is a recurring problem (which apparently it is), the best approach might just be to enforce existing policies like WP:BLP and WP:NBIO, which seem to cover this. Things like WP:PRODIGY work better as essays that interpret policy rather than becoming P&G in their own right. WP:NEXTBIGTHING comes to mind as a similar example. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 15:37, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

I would second this, with the thought that perhaps it could be linked to within the appropriate policy articles. Nerd1a4i (they/them) (talk) 03:44, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Meh. I'm not sure it's particularly needed. Misplaced Pages covers articles on children who meet the same guidance as adults. There are dozens of articles about children Edward V of England, Tad Lincoln, Nandi Bushell, Gavin Warren, etc. and I'm not sure we need special rules for "child prodigies" vs. other children. Why does one need special protection because one was a prodigy? --Jayron32 16:17, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Child prodigies need special protection because of the publicity hype about them often generated by the media and by ambitious and unscrupulous parents. There have been several examples in the last ten years. I should like to see this as a guideline or an essay. Xxanthippe (talk) 04:12, 1 May 2023 (UTC).

I mean, if you want to write an essay, write it. No one has to agree with an essay. --Jayron32 11:02, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Discussion here appears to have died. I've tagged it as an essay, feel free to revert. casualdejekyll 20:50, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Capitalization of hockey rounds and such

Following on discussion at WT:MOSCAPS#And_again, there's an RFC at WT:WikiProject Ice Hockey#RfC: NHL round names capitalization, essentially asking for a Hockey exception. Comments? 04:25, 12 May 2023 (UTC) Dicklyon (talk) 04:25, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Handling and interpreting the globalize template

I apologize if I have placed this in the wrong area. I welcome anyone to move it, if they wish to do so.

I think that the Globalize template is of very little value to Misplaced Pages and is in some ways a negative influence. I am not trying to antagonize anyone who has placed Globalize templates. Unless other edits show otherwise, I believe that they all acted in good faith and that they were genuinely trying to help. I have never found anyone who was acting in bad faith in regard to this template, or any template that does not deal with article deletion. However, in all of my time on Misplaced Pages, I cannot remember a single time when the person who placed the globalize template actually did work on the article to help with globalizing the article. I can remember them doing some minor edits, sometimes (a couple of wording changes to the document that indicate that the article refers to how things are done in a specific country, not the world), but not anything else. It is possible that many of the "taggers" did substantial work on the article, and I have just missed it (taggers is not meant to be a derogatory term, here, it is just easier than "editor who placed a globalize template" and I use it to describe all templates, and I call them all "tags" for short). Although, I always check to see if they have done additional work, and I also check to see if they posted on the talk page to explain why the globalize template is there. From my experience (anecdotal evidence, the worst type of evidence because it is so prone to bias of the person, as well as sampling bias, and the huge problem of relying on human memory), I would say that over 90% of the tags were placed with no explanation on the talk page or the edit summary* about why it was placed and no change made to the article besides the tag, and I think that is a very conservative estimate (I do not count putting the word "globalize" or "globalization" in the edit summary to be an explanation). However, the articles I read and edit may be unrepresentative of the use of the tag as a whole. Again, in my personal experience, I would say that perhaps half of the users of the templates put "globalize", or something to that effect, in the edit summary, while the rest were blank. In my opinion, that is insufficient unless the state of the article and the subject matter is such that the need for globalization is essentially self-evident. I believe that globalization tags have been added to articles inappropriately in some cases. If one cannot voice how an article should be globalized on the talk page, I do not think that the tag should be placed.

In addition, true globalization in an article is a completely ridiculous standard, if one thinks about it. There are close to 200 countries in the world (the precise amount varies with what one is willing to call a country, personally I do not think Monaco, Andorra, The Vatican, and other micronations count, unless you have a separate micronations category, but that is another issue). It is completely impossible to come up with articles that cover even simple issues in every country, let alone complex ones. There are also regional variations within countries to consider for some topics. To write such an article would be a monumental task. It might be something that a college could do with all of its majors in one subject making a contribution, but that would be a single article. There are thousands of articles with the globalize tag. Even if one such article were written, it would be far too long. Then, even if it were not too long, it would be impossible to keep such an article up to date, with fast-moving topics being a dozen times more impossible.

Another problem is that some topics are not covered by developing nations, as they are currently having problems with things like extreme poverty, natural disasters, rampant corruption, murder squads, impoverished locals selling drugs to rich nations and drug cartels murdering anyone who gets in the way. Their nations do not have people documenting the use of braille by their citizens, and even when they do, they usually only publish the books and articles in their own languages.

In my opinion, Misplaced Pages should come up with a more reasonable standard for presenting an international view of topics. As an English language encyclopedia, I suggest that we try to get the situation in English speaking countries first (U.S., UK, IR, CA, NZ, AU, IN – I think those are the right codes for Ireland, Canada, Australia, and India) and to make some more sweeping generalizations for certain areas, like regional things – Latin America, North Africa, Sub-Saharan Africa, Middle East, Western Europe, Eastern Europe, Central Asia… and so on. I mean no offense to the non-English speaking world. I am just trying to be realistic. No one would like an article that actually covers a topic on a global scale more than I would, even if it is twenty pages long. My perfectionist heart is currently breaking, but this task is simply impossible. There are over 5,000 articles with the globalize template on them. It would require the effort of many times the number of editors that we currently have to handle such a project. You would have to assign a scholar to a couple of topics, and depending on the nature of each topic, have him or her be assisted by students, as I suggested. For some topics, you could go 10 to 40 years without needing to do it again. However, some would have to be done every three to five years. If something is on the three year side, it is essentially a never ending project.

I have not been able to express things as elegantly as I would have liked. However, I hope that my issues have been understood despite that. I will try to get back here in case anything needs clarification, but I pretty much said what I wanted to say. I warn you that it can be days before I am able to come back to Misplaced Pages, sometimes longer. If that is the case, I hope that you can be patient with me and I apologize for the delay in advance. -- Kjkolb (talk) 03:02, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Globalize doesn't mean "cover every aspect of the topic in every country". It means "don't present the U.S. aspects as if they're universal or the only ones that matter". Thebiguglyalien (talk) 05:45, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Although the US is the most common single country used, it is not the only one and globalisation can apply equally to articles that are United Kingdom-centric, Europe-centric, Hong Kong-centric, Anglosphere-centric, etc. Thryduulf (talk) 09:06, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

This issue is exactly the one we had with {{Expert needed}}, namely editors tagging articles without providing any context or reason, leaving it to others to work out what the problem is and to put in the effort to fix it. Following a 2021 TFD, it was agreed to formally deprecate {{Expert needed}} if the reason= parameter was not filled in. Something similar might help here, as it would make it clearer that unexplained Globalize tags either need to be expanded or can be removed without the removing editor needing to get into arguments about whether the (unstated) reason was 'evident'.

The meaning of the tag also needs clarification. Many editors think it means "please add information about other regions or countries", unsurprisingly given the tag name and the wording "this article may not represent a worldwide view of the subject". But that's not an easy thing to do, with the result that many such tags languish for years. Better might be to change (or clarify) the meaning to "this article includes information that is wrongly stated or implied to be universal or applicable over an excessively wide geographical area. Please either provide additional examples covering other countries or regions, or clarify the geographical area to which the text applies." That's much easier for later editors to deal with, very often by adding some sort of limiting text such as "In the United States, ...". MichaelMaggs (talk) 12:53, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

The globalize template can already be removed if no reason is provided. From Template:Globalize:

• Please explain your concerns on the article's talk page and link to the section title of the discussion you initiate. Otherwise, other editors may remove this tag without further notice.
• This ...assumes that you will promptly explain your concerns on that article's talk page in a new section titled "Globalize." (specifically referring to use of the syntax {{Globalize|date=April 2023}})
• If you do not explain your concerns on the article's talk page, you may expect this tag to be promptly and justifiably removed as "unexplained" by the first editor who happens to not understand why you added this tag.

--Sunrise (talk) 03:14, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

I think the meaning of the template is pretty clear. It is as User:Thebiguglyalien says above. If an article only covers one or a few countries then that should simply be made clear. As with most templates that are put on articles the reason for placing it is simply that an editor has seen the issue but doesn't have the time or the ability or the inclination (we are all volunteers) to fix it. If the issue is not clear then people who remove templates should not be treated any worse than people who place them. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:29, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, if it isn't clear to you why an article has a particular template then, unless it's clearly incorrect (e.g. ), the best thing to do in most circumstances is ask on the talk page and/or ask the editor who placed the template. If other editors can explain the issue then all is good, if they can't then that's very likely consensus to remove it. Of course in some situations some aspect of the topic does apply only to one part of the world (despite a non-expert's gut feeling that it is more widespread than that) and it can't be globalised. In that case the section should be reworded to make that clear that it's a local issue and/or spun off into it's own article. Thryduulf (talk) Thryduulf (talk) 19:11, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Just to refocus this. Providing a "global perspective" doesn't mean "provide 200 different individual perspectives". It means provide a more general and universally applicable perspective rather than one focused on individual geographies. The main way should write is "Here's the basic idea (and here's a some representative places where some differences from the basic idea vary)." That's the correct way to write an article. It shouldn't be "Here's what happens in country 1. Here's what happens in country 2. Here's what happens in country 3." That's bad writing. --Jayron32 19:18, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

IR is Iran and IE is Ireland :p

Also, I concur with the replies above: globalization isn't providing one separate perspective for each country, to the contrary, it is providing a higher-level reporting of the situation free from national bias. Chaotic Enby (talk) 13:10, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

And besides there being no such thing as true globalization, often it should not be expected (such as on inherently local topics) I think that the good use of the template is when the article has a particularly narrow (e.g. single country) perspective and is on a topic where such should not be the case. Maybe the template could be tweaked along those lines. North8000 (talk) 20:26, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

I've suggested some wording above. Is the tweaking you suggest the same, or something different? Trying to find an actionable suggestion here. MichaelMaggs (talk) 21:21, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Assuming your suggestion is the green text, that doesn't cover all the uses of the template. See for example Bus stop#Regulation where the geographical scope of the content we have couldn't be clearer, but it relates to only part of one country while the topic (regulation of bus stops) is much wider. Thryduulf (talk) 00:18, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

If the topic has no global perspective, perhaps it should be broken up into separate topics per geography. --Jayron32 11:43, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

I can give an example from the world of cars (where this comes up a lot). Sales of the Toyota FJ Cruiser was discontinued in the US at the end of their 2014 model year but it continued being sold in other markets. Their local news sources almost universally reported it as "discontinued", not "discontinued in the US". Therefore, for years yanks would come along and change the article text and its infobox to say that production finished in 2014 - with no qualification. And this was in spite of hidden comments in the article explicitly warning that it was still being sold in other countries. This was a prime example of Americans writing what was true for them but not realising that it was not true for many other countries.  Stepho  talk  01:15, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Well, then you fix the problem. People who don't read policies also don't read policies when you change them. You can't do anything to stop this from happening, you can only clean up when it does. Sorry for the bad news, but "being diligent and fixing mistakes other people make yourself" is the only reasonable solution. Everything else is meaningless and will have no effect on the problem. --Jayron32 12:25, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

@Kjkolb, do you remember seeing various versions of this tag?

An editor says that something's wrong with this page. That editor can't be troubled to fix it, but can sleep easy knowing that they stuck on a tag. Please allow this tag to languish indefinitely at the top of the page, since nobody knows exactly why it's there.

The tags may be appropriate, and it's even possible that they might occasionally result in improvements to the articles (although AFAICT that's never been proven). But it's probably not realistic to expect the editors who tag the articles to contribute to improving the articles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:58, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Examples

Whether one is dealing with a country by country situation or whether you need to take a wider look would seem to depend on the topic. For example, how would you handle topics like the following. Just come up with what your very basic plan for the article would be in a few words. Also, no need to do them all, just pick a couple:

• Appellate court
• Borough
• Bioterrorism (getting sources from many countries will be impossible and many countries do not do research on bioterrorism, which is the part of the article tagged)
• Cable television
• Divinity
• Door (standard door size subdivision is tagged. do standard door sizes outside of North America and Europe even exist and where do you get references?)
• Dominatrix (good luck getting reliable sources for Latin America, Africa, Middle East, China)
• Flirting
• History of science and technology (unless you say that it is the United States or the Western World in the title, this one is asking for problems)

For "appellate court" and similar articles, like Supreme Court, it seems like the only solution is a country by country article, with some grouping by type, like common and civil law, just as the article does.

The following is not sarcastic, despite how it might seem. I suggest that examples of previous success stories of the globalize tag could be given to prove that it is more useful than a regular, general tag. They would also give guidance on how to properly address the issues in the articles that have yet to be fixed. The globalize template has been around in some form since 2004, which is more than enough time for it to have some successes. We could see which articles that it has been removed from and exclude the articles that should not have been tagged in the first place. At least a few of the rest should be success stories. If there are slim to no success stories, then perhaps the tag should not be added to more articles until we decide what we are going to do with the ones that are currently tagged.

Note: Removed list of "why" tags. --Kjkolb (talk) 21:55, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

If a global view exists, describe the global view. If multitudes of highly different individual views exist, the main article should be a DAB page (or nearly so) and the bulk of the information should be in their own articles. Borough could be done a lot better with a simple dictionary definition, then it could be broken out into separate articles on each type of Borough, for example. --Jayron32 12:23, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Here's a reference for standard door sizes in a bunch of countries (especially non-Western ones): here!

And here's another one!

I don't have the names of the specific regulations establishing each of these, but they should be feasible to find too. In any case, yes, standard door sizes exist outside of NA and Europe.

For articles like Divinity, it's obvious that adding context from other religions and beliefs systems than Christianity (with their own relationships with the divine) would be what's needed. Chaotic Enby (talk) 13:18, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Evolution/Creation

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I've come from the 'horse' page. In the 1st paragraph it's redirecting to the page of a fossil and stating an evolution link. I am a creationist however I am interested in species adaptation. I have my own thoughts on macro vs micro evolution. In this situation, I wasn't expecting speculation, just living facts about horses. This is likely to be across many pages. It's a bad look. And honestly... it's a crap fossil, whatever that was it's unlikely it functioned like the horses of today. Suggestion: instead of 'the horse evolved from' - 'Some speculate that the horse(insert other animal)...' Because imagine yourself on the other side of things reading 'God made the horse on day 1 but it was still a bit dark so he had to adjust it later, which is thought to be this fossil...' 120.22.128.217 (talk) 11:15, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Presumably you are talking about The horse has evolved over the past 45 to 55 million years from a small multi-toed creature, Eohippus, into the large, single-toed animal of today at horse. The body gives a series of reliable sources that suggest this is true. Are there any WP:RS by Misplaced Pages's definition that state otherwise?

You are welcome to your own WP:FRINGE theories, but this isn't where we promote them. This is also a content dispute, and shouldn't be at this location, rather at Talk:Horse as this isn't a policy change proposal. Lee Vilenski 12:13, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages has no interest in what you believe, or changing it for that matter. However, Misplaced Pages will continue to report things that are verifiably true and not merely to conform to what you wish were true. --Jayron32 12:49, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

If someone were to add "God made the horse on day 1", we'd have problems within existing policy. Even if we accept the Biblical account of creation and used that as a reference, land animals weren't created until the sixth day. Perhaps the modern horse is evolved from some sort of pegasus, but even that would only move it back to the fifth day. Whichever of those days it was, however, it came before Genesis 1:26 and the creation of man. That means that the only observer capable of recording events was the almighty himself, and it is His word, or Word inspired by Him, that this is what happened. So we're dealing with a WP:SELFSOURCE issue, and surely saying that one created the horse is a boastful claim (certainly if I invented the horse, it'd go right to the top of my resumé!) For matters of evolution, however, we have plenty of policies and guidelines on how to deal with science topics, relying on peer-reviewed literature and such. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 13:56, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

I think Eohippus would be pretty saddened to learn you called it "crap" if it was still alive. Of course it didn't function like the horses of today, there's a full Cenozoic of evolution between the two. Give it time, please! It filled more of a niche of small ungulate, like the dik-diks of today. Adorable little creature.

More seriously, there is definitely a debate to be had as to whether Eohippus should be mentioned in the first paragraph of Horse rather than of Equidae — it's just as much the (near) ancestor of horses as of other modern equids, although this line is often presented (misleadingly) as "horse evolution" even though it is just as much "zebra evolution". More of a question of how WP:RS discuss this topic, really (the facts stay the same — Eohippus or its close relative evolved into the modern Equidae species).

In terms of the evolution/creation matter, it isn't really a "one side vs the other side": verifiable scientific research overwhelmingly support evolution, and placing both on the level of personal beliefs is creating a WP:False balance that doesn't represent what the sources actually say.

Also, as the previous replies mention: this is a content dispute, not a policy change, so this conversation would be better located at Talk:Horse. Chaotic Enby (talk) 14:18, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

It is a 'content dispute' only in as much as the OP is arguing in favour of violating core Misplaced Pages policy regarding specific content. People who don't want to read about the evolutionary history of species are free to not look at Misplaced Pages articles on such species, but if they chose to read them, they can expect such articles to concur with the overwhelming scientific consensus on the subject. This clearly isn't open to negotiation on the talk page of the article concerned. There isn't any 'conversation' to be had. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:16, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

I'd agree with that - I was mostly being polite, insofar as even if there weren't such policies or consensus, this should be at Talk:Horse rather than Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy) of all things! But yeah, the conversation about hiding evolutionary history to not displease creationists shouldn't really be had to begin with. The only part of this discussion that is reasonable is whether Eohippus should be mentioned at Horse or at Equidae (or both!), but I don't think adding it to the Equidae lead even requires a conversation (interestingly, the first equid isn't even mentioned on that page!) I'll go and do it. Chaotic Enby (talk) 12:52, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Added Eohippus to the Equidae lead. The body should probably get a rewrite, considering it mentions Hyracotherium instead which isn't considered an equid anymore (and isn't very up-to-date), but that's getting completely out of the scope of this... argument? I think we can call it closed, if anyone with a closing ability comes here. Chaotic Enby (talk) 13:03, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

There aren't "two sides" to this. There's facts and there's fairy tales. Encyclopedias deal in facts. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:12, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Add public on‑chain activity to WP:RS