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Pliny and Horace

There's too much Pliny and Horace in here, and too little information (that Horace disliked garlic isn't terribly important, for example). I suspect some transcription or scanning errors, as well. In particular, what is "Theophrastus, Characters, l~.eunbcuuoviac"?

Theophrastus was a Greek writer... "Characters" seems to be the title of one of his works, in which he describes such use of garlic. "l~.eunbcuuoviac" appears to be a mis-OCR'd Greek word. (Yes, I know, I'm helpful.) A google search for theophrastus and garlic turns up a number of hits mentioning that Theophrastus once mentioned garlic in this context, which have a nasty tendency not to turn up a Greek word that looks enough like the OCR'd garbage for me to feel confident about it (especially since I don't know Greek). Does anyone have a dead-tree 90-year old Britannica lying around to check? Brion VIBBER

I´m Greek. I don´t know what Theofrastus may have written about garlic but my contribution to this page is this: what is mentioned above means nothing in Gree(not even transliterated to latin characters). Garlik in Greek is called skordo (σκόρδο). And it is used quite allot in Greece..IT is delicious although you wouldn^t want to go looking for a date after eating tzatziki. (the world known Greek appetizer consisting of yogurt, cucumber and garlic...)yummie..

Apparently the mis-ocr'd word is Δεισιδαιμονίας or The Superstitious Man, but it really doesn't seem to say what the article says it does. It does mention garlic, Hecate and crossroads. (I hope my cut and paste works in other browsers) -- WormRunner | Talk 04:11, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Has lately

The 1911 encyclopedia has exactly the sort of "has lately" problem we're trying to avoid here, made worse by its lately being 90-100 years ago. More rewriting to follow. Vicki Rosenzweig

Safety

I miss information regarding wether garlic is posinous in any form. I was eating food with garlic sqeezed from garlic with little green "shots" on them. I was thinking if those might be dangerous to eat so I thought I would find out on wikipedia, but could not find that info.

The shoots are certainly to eat, and are sometimes used as a vegetable in their own right. More generally, I have several books that confidently claim that no Allium is poisonous in any part. — Pekinensis 02:15, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Raw garlic if eaten in quantity I hear can be dangerous to eat. andham2000

Medicinal effects

Other medicinal effects are being debated but I think that garlic has been shown to reduce arteriosclerosis. See: http://www.kroger.com/hn/Herb/Garlic.htm (numerous references) and "The antiatherosclerotic effect of Allium sativum." Atherosclerosis. 2000 Jun;150(2):437-8. Dwheaton

I'm not sure this article is entirely correct-- the medicinal effects of allicin, garlic's active ingredient, have been proven in a large number of studies.

See this study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15910499&query_hl=8 and then do a search for "allicin" and you will find MANY more. I'm too lazy to dig through it all and correct this article, but maybe someone's that bored.

I came to Wiki to look up the nutritional benefits of garlic but could not find what I was looking for. Through what I've heard, garlic is high in vitamn C and is good to take as a means to ward off colds? (I realise the cold bit is likely somewhat of a wives tale) I think that it would be good to have more about the specific benefits and vitamin content of garlic and other foods on Wiki. I notice that there is a "components of garlic" side bar to the article but is this in order of quantity and what are the potency comparisons with other vegetables that contain similar vitamins/nutrients?

Garlic may also lower blood pressure (2-7 percent) and reduce blood clotting. http://www.aafp.org/afp/20050701/103.html

Changing the wording from

Some to Considerable for scientific research indicates,

Surely this is justified, given there are over 205 research papers on the various properties of Garlic, like Allacin or Kyolic. Although, my original wording of Overwhelming evidence was a bit much, I mean Garlic research isn't rocket science is it?

lars 10:31, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Anecdotal evidence

I think that anecdotal evidence for it's antibiotic properties should be admissible, as long as it's properly labelled as anecdotal evidence, i.e., there is anecdotal evidence from the medieval age of garlic used as a prophylactic against the plague, after all, that's what it is, an anecdote.

lars 10:31, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree, the current toned down wording without the tripod homepage link is much better. Lars, please read up on the NPOV policy. Please do not return the article to your POV. 205 is not all that "considerable" unless you have a highly regarded scientific paper that would give support to that type of language. - Taxman 05:18, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, you're right, enthusiasm got the better of me. - lars 02:32, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Its antibiotic properties are more than anectdotal. Since use of man-made antibiotics in cattle feed has been banned in the EU since January 1999, farmers are now using freeze-dried garlic preparations as a replacement. For starters, see and . Farming is a for-profit business, and farmers wouldn't waste money on something that doesn't work to keep their livestock alive and healthy. --Quicksilver 08:04, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Moreower, native phytoncides of darlic use in Russia, Ukraine etc. folkmedicine for treatment of maturate wound and some infectional disease. In little dose it has antibiotic effect and is the middle stimulatory factor, and sometimes use in scientific medicine (phytotherapy) too. Look also material of "Comission E" Alexandrov 12:52, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Components

The components list is dreadfully long and adds little detail to the article — should we remove it or replace it with a shorter version? —Hollow Wilerding 21:24, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Hm, I don't agree AT ALL. If all stated components are truly present, in other words, the list is correct, I find the argument "it is too long" rather insufficient, to say the least. I rather see it expanded in case some substance is not mentioned yet. JohJak2 22:16, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Well if we want to nominate this article for featured status, a long list cannot take up the middle of the article. —Hollow Wilerding . . . (talk) 01:44, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Tabular tratment, floating as a sidebar, as in Saffron would probably do the trick. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 04:43, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Case settled. —Hollow Wilerding . . . (talk) 15:06, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Meaning of garlic

Does the following sentence qualify as encyclopedic? I mean, I am aware that it is encyclopedic, but without a reference, I don't believe that it should be placed within the article. For the time being, I have moved it here:

The word 'garlic' derives from Old English gārlēac, meaning "spear leek", from its resemblance to the leek.

—Hollow Wilerding . . . (talk) 16:01, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=garlic confirms the etymolgy, just with a different spelling. McGee p. 311 also basically confirms it: Anglo-Saxon word meaning "spear-leek". The two sources disagree on what the "spear" refers to: McGee says it's the "slim, pointed leaf blade", and etymonline says its the clove. Intuition tells me McGee is closer to the truth (have you ever seen fresh garlic shoots? They look quite spearike, unlike a clove) but I don't have a definitive source to decide between the two. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 18:32, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Risk overstated?

"Garlic must not be stored in oil at room temperature. Because of the low acidity of the garlic and the lack of oxygen in the oil, it is a perfect breeding ground for bacteria and, if eaten, will almost certainly lead to severe food poisoning, botulism, and death if not immediately treated."

I certainly do not want to give incorrect medical information, especially involving possible risk of death from a food easily prepared at home, but I think that this is overstated.

If garlic stored in oil is contaminated with botulism, then there is a serious risk of fatal food poisoning, however people eat garlic stored in oil every day with no ill effects. Therefore I think that to say "if eaten, will almost certainly lead to severe food poisoning, botulism, and death" is mis-stating this. -- 200.141.108.170 20:43, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I very much agree and have modified the statement accordingly. -- WormRunner 07:54, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Harmful for eyesight?

It is common Chinese folk lore that eating too much garlic for a long time is harmful for your eyesight. That is the only drawback of eating garlic? Is it true?

What is a "long" time? Eyesight tends to deteriorate with age, anyway. So, if a person ends up with cataracts at age 85, was that because of the garlic, or simply natural aging processes? --Quicksilver 00:20, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Bulb vs clove

I removed a contradictory phrase. The article said These bulbs, called "cloves" by cooks, are the part of the plant most commonly eaten, .... ... A common error of beginning cooks is to misinterpret the word "clove" as meaning the entire garlic head (naturally occurring cluster of cloves, depending on the species) rather than one of its segments... PrometheusX303 15:12, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Single-bulb garlic

I bought some at the supermarket today. I have never seen this before (it came from China) but am far from an expert on the subject of garlic. However, its existence means that some of the phrasing in the article ("A head of garlic is composed of a dozen or more discrete cloves" etc.) might need to be changed. I'm certainly curious.  ProhibitOnions  16:57, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Some garlic plants, especially the smaller cloves, will fail to divide and will produce a large, single clove. The following year, they will divide. However, your description leaves open the possibility that this is a different species. What, exactly were they called and where are you? -- WormRunner 18:42, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm in Berlin. The label simply said "Single-bulb garlic" in several languages, indicating that it was grown in China. They are a little under half the size of a typical multi-clove garlic, and look much the same, except they are unsegmented. Peel it, and it's a single round clove, which tastes and looks exactly the same as normal garlic. I can take a picture or two if you want.  ProhibitOnions  22:10, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I've seen heaps of these lately in our supermarket, too. I thought they were bred for convenience, but maybe they're just young, like Wormrunner says. I'll try to find out more about it, if you'd like. — riana_dzasta • t • c • e • 12:32, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

More information would be great, pictures also. -- WormRunner 00:06, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I aim to please. Take a look at the picture. I'm afraid I can't supply any more details other than that it exists, it comes from China (in this case), and that I bought it in a Berlin supermarket. It has one round piece of garlic inside, althou some bulbs have slight ridges on the outside, where the cloves might be on a normal garlic plant.  ProhibitOnions  14:45, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

It is nice that the supermarket added the latin name "Allium ampeloprasum". It is elephant garlic, to which I will add your image. Han-Kwang 16:53, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

So they did, dunno how I missed that! Well, thanks for clearing that up. Different species or not, it tastes exactly the same as "real" garlic.  ProhibitOnions  20:55, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

That makes sense. Elephant garlic forms these single bulbs quite commonly. -- WormRunner 22:35, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Another mystery solved! ;) 129.96.142.18 09:29, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Garlic and baby aspirin

This was added today about long-term effects of garlic: That said, do not combine daily garlic supplements with the daily use of a baby aspirin as this will increase bleeding risk.

I think this isn't the right tone for an encyclopedia (direct advice to the reader) and a reference should be provided anyway. I'm removing it for now. Han-Kwang 12:34, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Culinary Uses

I am little disappointed in the Culinary Uses section. It talks more about digestive processes than about food. I have added a reference to two garlic (and parslsy) related items. Prior to this, the section had no links to any specific dishes and very little about culinary traditions. I would like to contribute in this area. But clearly a lot of work has been done on this page and I don't want to barge in. Obviously just a long list of Garlic dishes would be inappropriate. But I think some more detail would be a good thing. Any thoughts? Jdclevenger 00:46, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Recent Blanking of Section

I'd like to suggest that this be discussed, and not be blanked again until we have a consensus on the issue. Pursey 14:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi, please try discussing why you wish to remove that section on its Talk Page before you remove it. Pursey 14:04, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

As a person whose ancestors come from southern Europe, I find it offensive to say that certain cultures have more "tolerance" for the smell of garlic and that northern Europeans are the only ones that thoroughly cook garlic before eating it. I don't see why I have to discuss cultural insentivities before deleting them.

Because, you are the only one who has taken offence so far. ie. The only one to bring it up. And yours is not a Neutral Point of View. I have also reverted your edit to Cumin for the same reason; you've blanked a section without discussion. Pursey 14:11, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Your continued blanking to sections of Garlic

Please stop. If you continue to blank sections of articles without discussion on the talk page, I will refer the issue to an Administrator. Pursey 14:14, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I've started a talk page discussion on your behalf. Please do not blank the section until a consensus is reached. Pursey 14:19, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, my view is not neutral. If I read an article about fried chicken and it said that it was typically eaten by black people, and I was African American, would it be appropriate for me to find offense?

The original entry was biased to begin with, and if you fail to see that, then you are not approaching it from a culturally sensitive viewpoint. I edited cumin for this reason as well. To say that these have particular smells is borderline racist. People think to themselves, oh, that's why Lebanese smell bad because they eat garlic. Or Indians smell like curry because of cumin.

There are Asian cultures that believe when adults consume dairy products, their bodies emit a particular odor. But you do not find this in the entry for milk or dairy. Although this is written in English, I assume that Misplaced Pages aims to publish articles from a global viewpoint, rather than a northwestern European one.

I do understand your point of view, but please discuss it on the talk page, and see how it goes :) Your particpation is certainly welcomed, but there is a process for these things. Pursey 14:23, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I do not believe a discussion is necessary and to fight with me on it is to overly compulsive about folowing the process. Misplaced Pages also follows the principle of good faith, whereas when someone makes an edit, it is with the idea of improving an article to make it more factual and not opinionated, which happens even when sourced. I assume you are familiar with the policy of good faith, and therefore will allow these deletions.

I have also deleted it for the reason of its geographic bias, an important policy of Misplaced Pages. I will therefore also delete a sentence about the spice cumin to continue with this policy that prevents discrimination and bias.

First of all, to everyone, please sign all your comments with four tildes (~), this will make it easier to follow the conversation. Second, please take note of WP:3RR. As an admin, I can block users that violate the rule. Abossone, in general, it's better to discuss controversial edits rather than repeatedly reverting to different versions and threatening to continue to do so. To address the question at hand, I happen to agree with Abossone (talk · contribs) about the statement in question. It does not appear to serve any encyclopedic purpose, and doesn't have any kind of verification. (I don't think it's racist however.) My preference would be to see it stay removed. --Ed (Edgar181) 15:07, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I'm more than happy for this content to stay removed. My primary concern was with blanking without discussion. Pursey 15:13, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

17:49, 11 October 2006 (UTC)You are certainly entitled to your opinion on what is racist and what is not, but not only did this edit reflect me being a culturally sensitive person, but it also falls in line with Misplaced Pages standards that are outlined below, with specific reference to geographic biases. Maybe you are not familiar with the racism that pervades certain countries pertaining to North/South geographic locations, but that is through no myopic fault of your own. However, I do not believe that I should have to take the time to explain all of this or to wait for a discussion thread to resolve it. This is why I deleted it, rather than tried to rewrite the entire section and cause even more concern from compulsive wikipolice. Here are a couple citations below that would serve you well to read and understand the purpose of Misplaced Pages as a global initiative.

"The systemic bias of Wikipedians manifests itself as a portrayal of the world through the filter of the experiences and views of the average Wikipedian. Each editor contributes to articles based on his or her interests and knowledge. This is obviously not objectionable but, multiplied across the entire body of editors, results in unbalanced coverage of topics in a global context.

Once identified, the bias is apparent throughout Misplaced Pages. It may be found in two major forms: lack of articles on a neglected topic and perspective bias (most notably geographic) within articles on universal subjects."

"Be more conscious of your own biases in the course of normal editing. Look at the articles you work on usually and think about whether they are written from an international perspective. If not, you might be able to learn a lot about a subject you thought you knew by adding content with a different perspective."

http://en.wikipedia.org/WP:CSB

I'm happy to concede the point and for the content to remain out. Pursey 17:56, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Three-revert rule

Hi; Please review the three-revert rule. Misplaced Pages is a collaborative project. Repeatedly undoing others' work is not useful. Use the talk page to discuss what you want to do, and see if there is a consensus. Tom Harrison Talk 15:01, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Abossone 17:57, 11 October 2006 (UTC)The revert rule should apply to the person who reverted back to the original state after I made a deletion. The appropriate thing for that person to do would have been to start a discussion to revert it back, rather than put the impetus on the person making a deletion. So yes, I agree, undoing others' work is not useful.

Garlic and vegans

There's a debate raging among vegans as to wether garlic may be eaten. It seems it has some kind of sensory systems. Could somebody find some info about this, if only to refute it? David McCabe 23:26, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Culinary remarks under different section

It seems incorrect that the description of garlic in the 'Biology' section suddenly refers to pickled garlic in Russia, then to confusion by novice chefs over how much garlic to use. Unless there are objections I will move these comments farther down.--Bridgecross 20:28, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Wild Garlic?

The page on Wild Garlic claims that Allium sativum is often termed "Wild Garlic" when it is found growing in a naturalised or feral state. This article about Allium staivum claims that the variety does not grow in the wild, implying that it cannot grow in a nno-cultivated situation. Could someone please correct this contradiction?

Recent Edits of "Medicinal Use" Section

We have a slight problem here. My edits are being reverted -- at this point, for no reason whatever, that I can see. I've eliminated the "self-referential" parts (references to wiki editor behavior in the article, that I had originally written, and that were the subject of complaint). Whoever is reverting my edits needs to come here and explain, specifically, why the old version is better, and specifically what is wrong with the new version. I've added citations to high-reliability medical literature, and new facts, that were not in the original. If someone else wants to intelligently edit my edit, that's fine. But mindless reversion is not acceptable, and I will revert the reverts, as long as it takes. I do not appreciate vandalism, and that's what the current reverter is verging upon. Whoever you are: shape up. Alan2012 02:24, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

PS: If you want me to remove the comments about TheHeart.Org, that's fine. I'll just remove everything about TheHeart.Org (which was originally inserted by some other editor). TheHeart.Org is obviously not a source of unbiassed info, so the article would actually be better not bringing it up at all. But it is an all or nothing thing: either I'll remove everything about TheHeart.Org, or I'll keep the quote from TheHeart.Org with the comments that correct for TheHeart.Org's obvious bias. One or the other. Alan2012 02:35, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm seeking third party mediation on this issue. Hold tight. --Ronz 02:37, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't see why a third party is necessary. Simply be reasonable, and explain specifically what is wrong with the current version. What's wrong with it? Why not speak up? Alan2012 02:55, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

You must cease immediately reverting my edits unless you can explain what, SPECIFICALLY, is wrong with them. If you can explain satisfactorily what is wrong, then I will correct or change the text. Otherwise, you are being a vandal. Your action is now in the zone of vandalism. I won't tolerate it. Alan2012 03:01, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

You might not be guilty of vandalism; depends on whether or not it is your conscious intent to compromise the encyclopedia. The mindlessness of your reverts (i.e. wholesale elimination of new and obviously valid content), and your refusal to speak in specific terms, suggests the possibility that that IS your conscious intent. But there is no way to know that for sure. Alan2012 04:21, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

On this page -- http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Three_revert_rule -- it says "Rather than reverting multiple times, discuss the matter with other editors." Yes, I'm trying to! But you don't have a word to say, except to refer vaguely to "NPOV", without pointing out specifically where the POV problem is. Meanwhile, my edits have gone a long way toward correcting the POV problems of the original. Please either make an intellectually respectable showing, here, or leave. Alan2012 04:21, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Alan left me a message on my talk page indicating that he'd like to have my input on the issue, so I'm replying here. I reverted him once, after no prior involvement with the page, when I came here to look at the article and noticed a passage starting with the phrase "Inexplicably, this trial was referred to by one Misplaced Pages editor as 'definitive'", something that's obviously not acceptable in the article. I went back and found the change where it had been inserted (here), noted the presence of a fairly high number of weasel words and one large (and probably unsupportable) passage speculating on the motives of TheHeart.org, and reverted it. I also clipped the word "definitive" from an earlier edit, since I thought that Alan had a potentially reasonable objection there, even though it should've been expressed on the talk page and not in the article itself. I then left a message for Alan indicating that I'd reverted him (here) due to unencyclopedic tone and self-references to Misplaced Pages, but that I was confident that some of the material could be safely re-inserted if worded in more acceptable language. That's about where I am at this point. I'm not an authority on garlic, and from what I can tell, the research into the supposed benefits has been ambiguous, with some studies indicating that it helps and others indicating that it doesn't. I don't see any reason why this can't be worked out, if people are willing to be calm and work through the issues one at a time. Mediation might not be a bad idea. -Hit bull, win steak 13:59, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, HB. Good overall review of what came down. As for the speculation about the motives of TheHeart.Org: that was an attempt to save the reference to TheHeart.Org's clearly biassed editorial comment, which was in the original content. The alternative to removing it was to point up the bias -- the POV problem -- and explain that their remark was not based on a careful (or even any) literature review. For my money, the whole passage ought to be removed. It is merely an editorial comment, anyway, not any source of original data, and it happens to be an ignorant editorial comment (which is easily evident if you will simply glance over the AHRQ report). I think I might just go ahead and axe it, since it is just a bunch of useless baggage at this point. As for the research on garlic being (somewhat) "ambiguous": true enough, like with most medicinal agents. There are a plethora of papers, wide-ranging in quality, and diverse in outcomes (though mostly positive). Much of this is due to the heterogenous and often poor nature of the specific preparations used -- a typical problem with crude botanicals. Please read the AHRQ report, or the executive summary thereof, to get some insight. Just click on the link. Last, I am more than willing to work through the issues one at a time; I am eager to work through the specific issues one at a time. But at this point I don't know what the specific issues are. The other side isn't talking. I have repeatedly asked Ronz to specify precisely what/which text is objectionable, but I'm unable to get a word out of him/her. Mediation seems necessary only if Ronz 1) continues to refuse to communicate, and 2) continues to wholesale revert to the old original, with no attempt to explain. In that case, not mediation, but disciplinary action, should be taken. Alan2012 14:56, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Hit bull, mediation is the next step given the situation. --Ronz 15:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi. Is there some reason you cannot say a single, specific word about what your problem is with the section as it stands? "The situation" is not that we need a third party; the situation is that you're not talking. Why not? I will listen. I've already offered to omit the passage that is likely the problematic one (TheHeart.Org). I'm even letting the reference to the AIM study remain first in the section, which is in truth the wrong order. The AHRQ's high-reliability meta-analysis should really come first. It is even debateable whether or not individual studies like the AIM study should even be included, when a good meta-analysis is available. Whatever. I would not object to a brief discussion of a few recent individual trials. Furthermore, I emphasized the fact that garlic supplements tend to work in hyperlipidemias only for 3 months or so before pooping-out. Does any of that sound like I am a frothing pro-garlic propagandist? No, of course not. And I AM not. I'm just smart, and well-informed. In fact I've got a whole bunch more references and details that could be added to this medicinal use section, but I'm not going to bother if the section can be vandalized/zapped-out by someone who refuses to even speak a single word as to why. Alan2012 21:45, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Alan just my 2c, there are a couple of WP:Weasel statements in the section (I don't know if they are yours or not, and it is largely irrelevant for the purposes of WP) for example "However, dozens of clinical trials on garlic in hyperlipidemias, some of them of comparable quality, have come to the opposite conclusion" (where's the V RS source that states this? So OR) "This suggests that the benefit of garlic may be better obtained with a cycling schedule than with continuous administration" (original research, unless there is a citation) "Here again, as per the AHRQ report, it is not known whether this effect would persist at longer trial lengths, and it seems likely that it would not, if administration were continuous." (OR) "Oddly, TheHeart.Org seems intent on placing garlic in a dim light, since the phrases "absolutely no effects" and simply "no effects" convey the same objective meaning, while the word "absolutely" performs no work except to excite emotions, or to make the trial appear to say more than it actually said." (OR and POV) "Fortunately, both the AHRQ report and the Kojuri study, cited above, are available publicly in full text at the links, whereas the AIM study, the accompanying editorial, and the TheHeart.Org commentary are all restricted to paying subscribers." (OR and POV). What I suggest is that the section is rewritten to a more brief couple of paragraphs detailing the V pro and against literature, without resorting to the various "Weasal words" that are sprinkled throughout the above examples. Again, just my 2c worth. Shot info 06:35, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Shot: thanks for your comments. You're being much more talkative than Ronz.

Regarding: "However, dozens of clinical trials on garlic in hyperlipidemias, some of them of comparable quality, have come to the opposite conclusion" (where's the V RS source that states this?

The source is the AHRQ report, which was cited and quoted about 30 words later: "thirty-seven randomized trials, ...", etc.

Regarding: "This suggests that the benefit of garlic may be better obtained with a cycling schedule than with continuous administration" (original research, unless there is a citation)

Could be omitted, but this is a page that people are or may be looking to for practical advice. It would be wrong to tell them that garlic is inefficacious, but it would also be wrong to imply that it works indefinitely. That suggestion is the best compromise wording/concept that I could think of. It is also consistent with the findings of the AHRQ. Please suggest an alternative, if you have one.

Regarding: "Here again, as per the AHRQ report, it is not known whether this effect would persist at longer trial lengths, and it seems likely that it would not, if administration were continuous."

Again, trying to be conservative here and say a few words that represent a reasonable interpretation of the data. It could be omitted, but to do so would be to imply that the effect would persist at longer trial lengths, which really is unlikely, if you examine the totality of the evidence (which I urge you to do; see the cited work). If I were a propagandist for garlic producers, I myself would want to remove that sentence; but since I'm not, I don't. I do not want people to think that garlic is the answer to thier lipid problems, forever, because, based on the published evidence, it probably is not. But at the same time it is, clearly, useful for shorter periods. Again: suggest an alternative. Do you really want to leave people with the impression that garlic is the magic answer, forever?

Regarding: "Oddly, TheHeart.Org seems intent on placing garlic in a dim light, since the phrases "absolutely no effects" and simply "no effects" convey the same objective meaning, while the word "absolutely" performs no work except to excite emotions, or to make the trial appear to say more than it actually said." (OR and POV)

See comments immediately above in this Talk section, which explains this whole fiasco. It was an attempt to preserve, without intolerable POV problems, the TheHeart.Org material. I will just go ahead and remove all reference to the POV/biassed TheHeart.Org, completely, and be done with it.

Regarding: "Fortunately, both the AHRQ report and the Kojuri study, cited above, are available publicly in full text at the links, whereas the AIM study, the accompanying editorial, and the TheHeart.Org commentary are all restricted to paying subscribers." (OR and POV).

POV? OR? How? This is a statement of fact which you can verify in 10 seconds of mouse-clicking, and it is relevant fact for the 99.999% of Wiki users who are not paying subscribers to those journals. Access to info, so that the reader can verify for him/herself, is important, too.

Regarding: "What I suggest is that the section is rewritten to a more brief couple of paragraphs detailing the V pro and against literature, without resorting to the various "Weasal words" that are sprinkled throughout the above examples. Again, just my 2c worth."

Please respond to what I have just written, point by point. Also, the removal of the TheHeart.Org baggage will help keep the length down. We might also consider omitting the specific-study references, i.e. the AIM report and the Kojuri study, in order to keep length down. What say you?

At last, we have a discussion going! Hallelujah! Ronz?

Alan2012 15:15, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Ronz: If you wish, you could step in and take Shot's place in the text above; i.e. respond to my comments, point by point, with whatever you see or object to. This would be a great improvement over the previous general assertions of "POV", without being specific as to what and how. Simply be specific, as Shot Info was, and we can start talking. I await, and will take pleasure in, your first intellectually substantial contribution here. Alan2012 21:12, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Um, no doubt people are going to use this against me, but really your comments about Ronz above are not really helpful. Ronz (IMO) was being specific and encouraging you to review the pertinent WP policies and guidelines. The problem that I can see is that the entire section needs rewriting in a NPOV manner (so I agree with Ronz on this) and there is little to preserve in it's current arrangment principally as it is full of weasel words and original research. Hence why I just presented a few of the more obvious examples (again in my opinion, others may see others, more or fewer). Rather than discussing them point by point as you would like, the entire section needs starting over again. It reads very poorly and is quite different to how the article "flows" (ie/ it starts nice and encyclopedic then it hits the medical section and bogs down in unnecessary weasel wordy detail). I encourage you to read WP:WEASEL and WP:OR, not to prove a point but such that we can sing from the same song sheet. Shot info 22:31, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Regarding: "Um, no doubt people are going to use this against me, but really your comments about Ronz above are not really helpful."

My main comment toward Ronz, about 10 times now, has been: "please, PLEASE be specific about what you object to in the article as it stands". I get no response.

Regarding: "Ronz (IMO) was being specific and encouraging you to review the pertinent WP policies and guidelines."

Where was he being specific? Give me a quote. I read every word he wrote (which was not many), and there was only a blanket assertion of "POV" problems, which (see above) are in the process of being addressed. Your message above, which was specific, was excellent. With that kind of feedback (thank you), we can actually arrive at something and get this thing done.

Regarding: "The problem that I can see is that the entire section needs rewriting in a NPOV manner (so I agree with Ronz on this)"

Sorry, but you'll have to be specific again, just as you were in your initial (excellent) message. I will however eliminate all the TheHeart.Org crap; that should help the length problem. Perhaps I should place the AHRQ meta-analysis first, where it should be (i.e. most important single reference). I can leave in the individual study info (AIM and Kojuri) if everyone thinks that is appropriate. Or, I could omit it. What say you? Anyone?

Regarding: "and there is little to preserve in it's current arrangment principally as it is full of weasel words and original research. Hence why I just presented a few of the more obvious examples (again in my opinion, others may see others, more or fewer). Rather than discussing them point by point as you would like, the entire section needs starting over again. It reads very poorly and is quite different to how the article "flows" (ie/ it starts nice and encyclopedic then it hits the medical section and bogs down in unnecessary weasel wordy detail). I encourage you to read WP:WEASEL and WP:OR, not to prove a point but such that we can sing from the same song sheet."

Well, it is difficult if you will not be specific in response to what I wrote. What do you want? I can re-write the thing to, for example, exclude the thing about cycling schedules, but I think that readers will be poorly served by that, for reasons that I explained above. If you disagree, please say so, and say why. Just saying "rewrite the whole section" is not helpful. One thing I will do, for sure, is omit the TheHeart.Org stuff -- lots of overhead with little value.

Alan2012 01:29, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that Ronz has now "left the building" and asked for mediation on the subject. HB (above) seems to agree this is probably the way to go as well. I am personally indifferent, I just don't have time to completely rewrite it at the moment. So probably fresh eyes would help out here. I think it needs to be shorter leading with a "Medical benefits of garlic are inconclusive with <pro> and <con>". Then a paragraph covering each one with no editoralising (ie/ WP:OR). With enough time, I will have a stab and then we can go from there. In the mean time your calls for "specific" are difficult because every paragraph of the section (IMO) fails WP policy in several ways. So to be specific in all regards means I may as well rewrite the section. In order to do that requires time. In the meantime, I can direct you to WP:OR and WP:WEASEL for the necessary background of why several editors (myself, HB, Ronz) feel the article is poor. Shot info 02:05, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Notes On (Probable) Veracity and Presence/Absence of POV in Sources

These notes pertain to the Medicinal Use section.

Be advised -- or better yet, go to the library and take a look at an issue for yourself -- that the Archives of Internal Medicine (AIM) is jam-packed, every issue, with pharmaceutical ads, including (of course) ads for the statins and other hypolipidemic drugs. Are we going to assume that the AIM editorial staff is completely insulated from the matter of the content preferences of their advertisers? I suppose we could assume that, but we would be unjustifiably credulous in doing so. For more details, see:

Advertising in Medical Journals: Should Current Practices Change?

http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0030130 .

Medical Journals Are an Extension of the Marketing Arm of Pharmaceutical Companies

http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020138

Meanwhile, the AHRQ is a government body, with no ties to industry, devoted to dispassionate technology assessment and the advancement of evidence-based medicine. Visit their site and see for yourself:

http://www.ahrq.gov/

http://www.ahrq.gov/clinic/techix.htm

Now, I do believe that these are pertinent details that ought to be included in the article. Our objective is to maintain NPOV, after all, and if the sources we're citing have or are likely to have serious POV problems themselves, then note should be made of it in the article. It is clear that the AHRQ is more reliably NPOV than the AIM. No contest.

Ronz should appreciate this suggestion, since he/she is very interested in maintaining NPOV status -- as am I.

I'll come up with a compact version of all this to insert into the article.

Alan2012 04:16, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

PS: regarding: "Medical Journals Are an Extension of the Marketing Arm of Pharmaceutical Companies", note that the author is one Richard Smith, described as follows: "RS was an editor for the BMJ for 25 years. For the last 13 of those years, he was the editor and chief executive of the BMJ Publishing Group, responsible for the profits of not only the BMJ but of the whole group, which published some 25 other journals. He stepped down in July 2004. He is now a member of the board of the Public Library of Science, a position for which he is not paid."

Could we agree that Richard Smith, and the PLOS journals, are authoritative and reliable sources on this issue? If not, why not?

Alan2012 15:47, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Alan, this is a tired arguement, often used by the same people who say that government agencies (like the AHRQ) are also "tainted". Science is science and if it is reproducable, it is reproducible. If it isn't then the glee that other journals take their competitors to task like sharks with blood in the water. Poisoning the well isn't a WP policy. Shot info 22:31, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

What is the basis for saying that the AHRQ is tainted? Please do not speak in vague weaselly terms; cite your source. Science is science, but that's not what we're talking about here, as you know. There are numerous biases and prejudices that can creep in, at multiple levels. Everyone knows this, especially scientists themselves -- and you would be a piss-poor (and pathetcally ignorant) scientist if you didn't. You may not like the fact that veracity and reliability is such a serious issue, but it is. Last: Since when is pointing out facts relevant to keeping the article NPOV "poisoning the well"? Really, Shot, your other contribution (above) was much better. This one is anemic, toothless. Alan2012 02:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

69: did you read my post? I am commenting on Alan's arguement RE: "Medical Journals Are an Extension of the Marketing Arm of Pharmaceutical Companies". I didn't say that AHRQ is tainted, but the arguements presented by Alan are often used by Alt-Med advocates (say Tim Bolen) to poison the well against government agencies. Unfortunately they cannot have it all ways. Either you discount everything (included Alt-Med advocate sources that generate revenue no matter how minor) or you use WP's excellent set of policies to judge sources against. Alan's use of "Medical Journals Are an Extension of the Marketing Arm of Pharmaceutical Companies" is an example of poisoning the well. And I think you would find that I am a strong believer in scientific credibility. As for my use of weaselly terms, well, I suggest that you read WP:WEASEL, WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL and take a chill pill :-). Shot info 01:18, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I read your post, several times, but it was not entirely coherent. I don't give a rip what Tim Bolen says, or what "alt med advocate sources" (NOS) say. The idea that criticism of commercial medical journals for potential bias is "poisoning the well" is just preposterous. Utterly preposterous. The problems of bias, prejudice, fraud, compromised veracity, and so on, of the biomedical and other technical literature, are well known and documented -- sometimes in the biomedical literature itself! You're ignorant to maintain otherwise, and you are foolish to maintain that "science is science" as though that says anything about the (numerous and significant) problems of maintaining quality of scientific publication. Alan2012 02:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

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