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::::::::::The title is not the article, and it is clear what the article’s content includes. and ] is also clear: “to identify ''key facts'' at a glance.” It is non-NPOV to selectively omit facts you don’t approve of. —''] ].'' 17:11, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::The title is not the article, and it is clear what the article’s content includes. and ] is also clear: “to identify ''key facts'' at a glance.” It is non-NPOV to selectively omit facts you don’t approve of. —''] ].'' 17:11, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::You seem confused. ] (]) 12:37, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::::You seem confused. ] (]) 12:37, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
::::::::::::You seem something too, but I think we should stick to the subject and not indulge in innuendo about other editors. —''] ].'' 13:38, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
::::::In addition, the estimates vary from 2 to 30 thousands, not 10-30, as you say. And many sources say that some of them were killed in 1946-47, whereas the infobox define the time of the event as 1943-45. All of that should be specified too, but, again, that may require an adjustment of the article's scope. ] (]) 17:51, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
::::::In addition, the estimates vary from 2 to 30 thousands, not 10-30, as you say. And many sources say that some of them were killed in 1946-47, whereas the infobox define the time of the event as 1943-45. All of that should be specified too, but, again, that may require an adjustment of the article's scope. ] (]) 17:51, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
:::::::2 thousand is an estimate for Volyn only. But I suppose if you want the infobox to offer the full range of estimates then you’d want to amend the “c. 100,000” in the infobox as well, right? —''] ].'' 21:34, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
:::::::2 thousand is an estimate for Volyn only. But I suppose if you want the infobox to offer the full range of estimates then you’d want to amend the “c. 100,000” in the infobox as well, right? —''] ].'' 21:34, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 December 2022
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In "Classification as genocide - Polish view"," On 22 July 2016"should be " On 8 July 2016". Both resources were written on 8 July 2016. MINQI (talk) 00:03, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
Lede consists of 3 paragraphs, mid paragraph currently reads:
According to Timothy Snyder, the ethnic cleansing was a Ukrainian attempt to prevent the post-war Polish state from asserting its sovereignty over Ukrainian-majority areas that had been part of the prewar Polish state. Henryk Komański and Szczepan Siekierka write that the killings were directly linked to the policies of Stepan Bandera's faction of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN-B) and its military arm, the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, whose goal as specified at the Second Conference of the OUN-B on 17–23 February 1943 (March 1943 in some sources) was to purge all non-Ukrainians from the future Ukrainian state. The massacres led to a conflict between Polish resistance and Ukrainian insurgency in the German-occupied territories, with the Polish Home Army in Volhynia responding to the Ukrainian attacks, on a much smaller scale.
My reading of it is as an attempt to contrasts two views of the massacres.
Snyder; "a Ukrainian attempt to prevent the post-war Polish state from asserting its sovereignty over Ukrainian-majority areas that had been part of the prewar Polish state."
Henryk Komański and Szczepan Siekierka; "to purge all non-Ukrainians from the future Ukrainian state"
I don't see how these views contrast nor how there is anything contentious in either statements. If they don't contrast and are not contentious, I don't see the need to namecheck authors or present them as such.
The purpose of the lede is to summarize.
Can we simplify to .....=>
The ethnic cleansing was a Ukrainian attempt to prevent the post-war Polish state from asserting its sovereignty over Ukrainian-majority areas that had been part of the prewar Polish state. The massacres led to a conflict between Polish resistance and Ukrainian insurgency in the German-occupied territories, with the Polish Home Army in Volhynia responding to the Ukrainian attacks, on a much smaller scale.
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 February 2023
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"Many Ukrainians perceived the 2016 resolution as an "anti-Ukrainian gesture" in the context of Vladimir Putin's attempts to use the Volhynia issue to divide Poland and Ukraine in the context of the Russian–Ukrainian war"
Because this is just a feeling/opinion of a closer unknown person. The source was also not given Bukajsamesz (talk) 22:00, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
Not done: It is sourced. The Sejm’s resolution was interpreted by many Ukrainian politicians and journalists as an “anti-Ukrainian gesture” adopted in the particularly unfavourable moment of the military conflict in the Donbas region and conscious attempts of the Kremlin to use Volhynian topic to further complicate Polish-Ukrainian relations. The source even sources it. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:07, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 February 2023
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Remove sentence as Failed verification/WP:SYNTH: "Others, including Waldemar Rezmer, use the word "Zagłada", originally applied to the Final Solution, to describe the massacres." - cannot attribute to Rezmer in the sources - note clear use Zagłada in source for "originally applied" but (source) instead says "previously reserved" - . Also note that Rezmer is alive so this can be considered defamatory.
Done I have removed the unverifiable attribution. To be clear, I don't think the content in question would constitute defamation. If you disagree, consult WP:OS and WP:RFO asap. Actualcpscm (talk) 14:12, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
Infobox deaths
A major article section surveys estimates of 10,000 to 30,000 Ukrainian dead among victims, yet they are absent from the infobox, which treats the subject as a one-sided attack and not a conflict with mass killing of civilians by more than one side. Even if that were deemed acceptable, the text tells us that a very large number of Ukrainians were among the victims of UPA, but they are omitted.
There’s a disconnect, belying WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE “to summarize . . . key facts that appear in the article.” It’s like an infobox summarizing some other article, or restricted to only selected parts of this one. —MichaelZ.13:38, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
That depends on how we define the article's topic, and by whom these Ukrainians were killed. I assume the article tells about the massacre of Poles by UPA. If those Ukrainians were killed by UPA, then these figures definitely should be included. If those Ukrainians were killed by Poles, then we need to carefully think how to represent these facts.
We mush avoid a broadly discredited concept of "Second Polish-Ukrainian war", which is being actively pushed by some Ukrainian sources, and which is totally rejected by the international scholarly community. Paul Siebert (talk) 16:44, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
This is about the infobox reflecting the article’s current content, not re-determining and changing the topic. —MichaelZ.13:07, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
Well, the article’s coverage of the topic explicitly includes subsections on “Polish casualties” and “Ukrainian casualties,” with detailed surveys of both of their numbers in sources. The infobox lists “Deaths” of Poles and Czechs. So the summarizing of “key facts that appear in the article” has a very different emphasis by omitting part of that, without any rationale. Clear?
You seemed to be implying that “by whom” someone was killed makes their deaths not key facts. Does the article or sources support such an assessment? —MichaelZ.16:12, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
I think the key logic is that retribution killings are a part of this subject, and not divorced from it. Even if there were a complete article on them, it would remain part of this broader subject in summary style. There is no reason to omit them. —MichaelZ.16:17, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
The question is simple: the infobox provides a list of perpetrators, and it is exhaustive. Therefore, if those 10,000-30,000 Ukrainians were murdered by someone from this list, these deaths should be included. However, if they were killed by somebody else, we cannot add them without expanding the list of perpetrators.
However, if the we adjust the perpetrator list, the article's scope (and probably a title) should be probably modified too. However, before discussing that, please, answer who murdered those Ukrainians. Paul Siebert (talk) 16:41, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
I find this your response aggressive and unfriendly.
In addition, you are missing the point: as I explained, the lists of the victims and perpetrators must be consistent: we must include all victims (irrespective to their ethnicity) provided that they were murdered by the perpetrators listed in the infobox. However, if we include some category of the victims that were killed by someone else (except by Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, Ukrainian Insurgent Army, Mykola Lebed, Roman Shukhevych), then the perpetrator list should be updated accordingly.
If several thousands of Ukrainians were murdered by the same perpetrators that were killing the Poles (again, their list is: "Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, Ukrainian Insurgent Army, Mykola Lebed, Roman Shukhevych"), then I agree that these Ukrainian victims should be included. However, if they were killed by somebody else (e.g. by Polish self-defence), then the latter must be added to the list of the perpetrators.
In the latter case, I anticipate a huge problem: if we list both UPA and Polish self-defence in the perpetrators list, and we list both Ukrainians and Poles in the list of victims, then a reader may be completely confused: who was being murdered and by whom? Instead of providing a clear and brief summary, such an infobox would just confuse a reader. Paul Siebert (talk) 21:06, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
The title is not the article, and it is clear what the article’s content includes. and WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE is also clear: “to identify key facts at a glance.” It is non-NPOV to selectively omit facts you don’t approve of. —MichaelZ.17:11, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
You seem something too, but I think we should stick to the subject and not indulge in innuendo about other editors. —MichaelZ.13:38, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
In addition, the estimates vary from 2 to 30 thousands, not 10-30, as you say. And many sources say that some of them were killed in 1946-47, whereas the infobox define the time of the event as 1943-45. All of that should be specified too, but, again, that may require an adjustment of the article's scope. Paul Siebert (talk) 17:51, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
2 thousand is an estimate for Volyn only. But I suppose if you want the infobox to offer the full range of estimates then you’d want to amend the “c. 100,000” in the infobox as well, right? —MichaelZ.21:34, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
Totally rejected? Timothy Snyder and many other regarded western historians refer to it as a Polish-Ukrainian civil war. It's actually wacky revisionism to suggest otherwise at this point. LeVivsky (ಠ_ಠ) 04:19, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
@Lvivske why did you change the death toll from c. 100k to 50-100k? It goes against the cited source. Also 40-60k is a deathtoll of Volhynia massacres only. Marcelus (talk) 08:06, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
When has Snyder ever said that? You're lying. Timothy Snyder has condemned Bandera as a genocidal war criminal outright. Find better heroes, high time Galehautt (talk) 00:27, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
Is Misplaced Pages slowly becoming the source of polish propaganda?
This article is literally appalling and misses out on every point literally. There are so much of disinformation here whitening out polish occupation of western Ukraine and hundreds of years of enslavement of Ukrainians by Polish invadors, no mentioning of the crimes and cleansing of Ukrainian people on Ukrainian lands occupied by Poland in 1918 by AK starting from 1941. Poland was nothing more than an invador who deprived Ukraine a chance to get independence in 1918. Polish people were not just a minority enhabiting our land but the occupants who exploited Ukraine. It doesn't mentionthe confirmed facts of Russians pretending to be Ukrainians conducting the acts of violence neither mentions the influence of nazi on this tragedy. it is a fully bias polish propaganda not worthy even one minute of attention. Let's start from the point 1 polish people were occupants on the territory of Ukraine same as Russians in Crimea now. You raising up this tragic history in a distorted way will bounce back on you, many countries have historical questions to Poland indeed. i request the authority of Wiki to investigate and protect the global intellectual community from the influx of polish propaganda on your website.
Yes. Yes it has become that. This article is really bad. I remember when editors specifically censored some of the stuff you said, saying "if you dont like it make a new article". It got out of hand enough that I think a lot of people stopped trying to fix it. LeVivsky (ಠ_ಠ) 04:17, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
You guys needs to be more specific, I'm currently rewiriting the article and updating it to the current knowledge Marcelus (talk) 08:05, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
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Referencing and citation: criterion met
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Lemonaka (talk) 17:51, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
Done Done, with sources from article. Lemonaka (talk) 17:54, 25 December 2022 (UTC)