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Revision as of 22:33, 9 July 2023

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Empirical research into telepathy

Thinker78 (talk · contribs) changed "empirical research into telepathy" to "telepathy" with the edit summary "removed text for conciseness". That may have been the intention, but I see it as further chipping-away at any remnants of legitimacy that Rupert Sheldrake has in his BLP, along with the amplification of illegitimacy under the WP:FRINGE umbrella.

The fact that he is conducting experiments using empirical research is more noteworthy than removing three (yes, THREE) words in the name of conciseness, imo. Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 20:17, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

My interest in this case is the format and syntax of the lead. The previous sentence was "Other work by Sheldrake encompasses paranormal subjects such as precognition, empirical research into telepathy, and the psychic staring effect." I removed "empirical research" from the sentence fragment for conciseness. I did this because its inclusion is not congruent in the in-line list within the sentence. Let's analyze this in a regular list format.

Other work by Sheldrake encompasses paranormal subjects such as

• precognition,
• empirical research into telepathy,
• and the psychic staring effect.

In my opinion, "a paranormal subject" is "telepathy". I would say that "empirical research into telepathy" seems to be more an activity than a subject.

I modified the edit after your challenge. If you have further considerations let us know. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 22:02, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

A clarifying question would be "what other way is there to study telepathy (as a biologist or psychologist)? Other than empirical research?" I can think of no other way within those disciplines, which are inherently empiricist. — Shibbolethink 23:08, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

I think it would be best to keep discussing to seek consensus instead of just reverting. Esowteric didn't revert and came directly to the talk page instead. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 04:59, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

See: WP:BRD. This is the normal cycle. — Shibbolethink 22:46, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 08:43, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Actually, cedar777's manual revert is better still (at least from my POV). See edit difference.

It re-adds useful biographical info: He has worked as a biochemist at Cambridge University, Harvard scholar, researcher at the Royal Society, and plant physiologist for ICRISAT in India.

and also reverts to Other work by Sheldrake encompasses paranormal subjects such as precognition, empirical research into telepathy, and the psychic staring effect.

Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 19:56, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

I agree and personally think the manual revert from cedar777 is the best version of the options presented. I think the "empirical research" part probably is unnecessary but I don't think it detracts enough to remove it at this point. It seems important to others enough for compromise to be the best way forward here. — Shibbolethink 21:13, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks again. Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 08:44, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Did he only conduct empirical research in telepathy? Thinker78 (talk) 00:54, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Deepak Chopra

Why has the reference to how Deepak Chopra has been a notable supporter of Sheldrake's work been removed from the end of the introduction? YTKJ (talk) 22:23, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

I'm honestly not sure when or why that happened, but I agree with its removal. Notable supporters aren't really WP:DUE for the introduction, which is meant to summarize the most important aspects of a subject's article. — Shibbolethink 22:48, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Objective writing on wikipedia

Please do not write your opinion just facts. This man really is a scientist: a phd. He wrote books and wrote a theory and even had hypothesistesting with it. There are also counter views and science isnt settled on this issue. However to write someoneis accused f beeing a pseudoscientist: tgere are no scientists on this world tgat have never been accused of doing pseudoscience. Science about new and in this case very broad abstract and fundamental subject matters are by definition debated about and there is no consensus. The term pseudoscientist is an opinion and Misplaced Pages should be about facts. Facts are he has a theory. Please dont use Misplaced Pages as a way to cent your opinion, it is ruining this medium. Nobody want toknow the writers opinion on someone, we just want tokniw what bookstgeories where he did his phd etc. there is something written about “new age” but that movement has little to do with this subjectmatter.on wikipedia people should stop ruining things by constantly in the intro saying their personal opinion on so eone; this is an online encyclopedia, its just a statement of facts. We dont want the writers opinion in every intro. Or if histheory is tge “truth” there is no totalitairian truth, there are just people writing books and writing theories and the reader should think We dont need the writers advice what we should think about it. 2001:1C02:2B15:2900:CC2B:6391:F413:2C6 (talk) 22:24, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

We document the facts and opinions described by reliable sources. No opinions from editors. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 23:23, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Please insert neutral header here

I am disgusted by the incompetence and arrogance gathered in this article hoping to suffocate progress. This is not what Misplaced Pages should be for, you dare talk below about facts, but facts are REPRESSED AND REMOVED from the article. Here some BASICS that the article fails to honestly mention:

1. MOST IMPORTANTLY, Sheldrake is a proved high standing SCIENTIST. He studied biology and got his PhD from Cambridge, where he was sharing a house and frequenting some of the most brilliant minds of the time. At the beginning of his career he did way opening "main stream" research, which led to the fact the two of his papers were published in Nature, an achievement that most standing professors still dream of. PLEASE mention this and stop lying about him, as if he was just an "author"

2. Sheldrake decided to go his own way, being interested in phenomena for which there was no funding in academia, but he proceeded to be inventive and extremely cautious in EMPIRICAL SCIENCE. If he talks about evidence for the phenomena -- objective, seriously measured phenomena -- to which the morphogenetic field is just an ad interim PROPOSAL of an explanation, because the phenomena are not explained in present science, and the telephathy belong, his statistical support is so accurate, that I could only dream that the propaganda around covid had been supported by statistical evidence only 10% as accurate as Sheldrake's. I am sure that the ignorant contributors who dare cut explanations in favor of Sheldrake and spread difamation have no slight experience, never read a book or followed a complete conference of Sheldrake. To answer a question raised below by Thinker78 (talk · contribs): the only funding for study of parapsychological pheonomena, to what I know, comes from Koestler's funding of the society for the study of parapsychological phenomena. So yes, there have been empirical studies, but Sheldrake is leading by the extensivity and accuracy of his experiments, as well as the inventivity used. Nobody was abled to find flaws in his empirical studies, which why they go ad hominem directly, precisely as this page does.

3. His empirical facts on the morphogenetic field are impressive enough, for having motivated research by many other main stream scientists, who diversified the realm of observations -- but kept low profile, for understandable reason. He is not alone! I must take the time to present at least the basic of the empirical evidence that lead to the explanation ATTEMPT by the (consciently) vague notion of morphogenetic field. What multiple experiments prove is a SURPRIZING AND UNEXPLAINED non-local spread of knowledge from the experience of solving certain riddles. The typical experiments involve some labor animals who either work their way out of complex labirinths, or succeed to remove their food-reward from an intricate system of containers, achievements which all required many days and weeks for the first experiment subject to SOLVE. What happens is that when repeating the experiment with the same kind of animals, and the same challenge, in various remote locations, the time for solving the riddle dramatically drops, slowly to half or less of the initial time. It never increases. And this despite of the fact that any physical kind of information transmission is totally excluded. So this is a repetitive indication that something happens that goes against probabilities, and suggest a non local "storage of collective information of the species". Now that is empirical science of the best, and it was taken over by more teams -- yet a solid theory is certainly still out of reach. But facts OBLIGE us to accept SOMETHING IS GOING ON. So stop difamating the morphogenetic field explanation, or do your home work and explain what it is and why you feel so self-certain (NOT BY QUOTATIONS, PLEASE, by FACTS).

4. You completely fail to mention a fundamental book of Sheldrake, "The science delusion" in which he individuates and explains 10 fundamental unstated axioms that are hidden behind the main stream sceintific view of life and the Universe. Noone could prove him wrong, this why you preferred not to mention the book, not having base for difamation.

I have not more time to go into detail, but must say that I am appaled by the insiduousness of ignorant contributors who obviously have the say also in REMOVING positive information, in order to maintain the overall difamatory style of the page. I propose to these ignorants to make their own site called WikInquisition, since THIS is what their level of undersanding and intelligence is! Misplaced Pages initially intended to educate, not to cenzor and difamate -- for this main stream media suffices! —PredaMi (talk) 09:27, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

TL;DR. See WP:WOT.

I stopped reading when even after three sentences, I found nothing related to article improvement.

If there is anything that is relevant for this page (meaning: helpful for page improvement), can you please repeat it without all the hate, preaching, and hate preaching around it? If not, please delete the whole thing, it does not belong here because of WP:NOTFORUM. --Hob Gadling (talk) 10:15, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Please don't refactor another editor's discussion heading with a POV replacement. The title was "WikInquisitia" not "Pro-fringe sermon". Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 10:40, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

What you obviously mean is "do not replace my pro-fringe POV, however hateful, defaming and vilifying, with a wording more in agreement with Misplaced Pages rules".

The Inquisition was a murderous organization that tortured people and burnt them alive. Comparing Misplaced Pages with it is not appropriate, and if you reinstate it again, admins will have to take care of you.

Consult WP:SHOWN and WP:TALKHEADPOV, especially Never use headings to attack other users. --Hob Gadling (talk) 10:57, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps you should consult WP:OWN and WP:NOTCENSORED for some balance. HappyWanderer15 (talk) 13:08, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

You should consult WP:NPA (no perhaps about it) - Derogatory comments about other editors may be removed by any editor That exactly fits the original header: it equated the editors of this article with mass murderers.

Notorious WP:PROFRINGE editors should stop defending that personal-attack section header.

I repeat: Is there anything in this thread about improving the article without ignoring the Misplaced Pages rules? --Hob Gadling (talk) 14:19, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

"Notorious pro-fringe editor"? That, in itself, is a derogatory comment, and your edit summaries about "crackpots" and "crackpottery" make your own position eminently clear. As for blatant threats to other editors here, like "if you reinstate again, admins will have to take care of you", this really does the public perception of your cause no favours, whatsoever. Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 15:39, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

You may not like the original poster's rant, I might not like it, but from their point of view, they see areas in which the attitudes and stances of editors have been contributing negatively to the article, and they deserve to be heard and not ridiculed. Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 15:48, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

And, sure, if the original heading of this thread offends you and dishonours the discussion process, then please feel free to take the matter to an admin noticeboard. BTW, my advice would be to avoid the Monty Python sketch about the Spanish Inquisition, or else you might become traumatized. Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 15:54, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

But amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as an almost fanatical devotion to Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:45, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

I repeat: Is there anything in this thread about improving the article without ignoring the Misplaced Pages rules? Or are you only here to whine about the existence of people who disagree with you? --Hob Gadling (talk) 17:32, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

"Derogatory" I think is only in the context of attacks against minorities or vulnerable groups. It is item 1.b. in the civility policy. Regarding WikInquisitia, I would say it would fit more in 1.a., c., d. Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 21:18, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm dedicated to applying the WP:RULES, but I don't consider myself a fanatic. I.e. when proper WP:RS are presented, I am prepared to change my views, or at least allow opposite views in the articles.

But, anyway, we are not here to change basic website policies just because a random editor asks nicely. WP:PSCI has been adopted for a good reason, there is no motivation for dodging it inside this article.

And no, we are not preparing for Sheldrake getting burned at the stake, comparing expressing rational criticism to such crime is risible. Yup, this reminds me of Abd-ru-shin, who complained that he gets crucified through humor.

@Hob Gadling: I think you should read the whole post. Why? Because it is involuntary humor.

I don't agree with Sheldrake's POV, but I find the 10 tenets of The Science Delusion to be enlightening. I just don't agree that the mainstream science and evidence-based medicine would be wrong for upholding these 10 tenets.

Do we know everything there is to know? No, but that isn't a reason to behave epistemically irresponsible.

And, PredaMi, the scientific community is the boss of what we write here. Sheldrake should solve his problem with the scientific community before attempting to fix his article at Misplaced Pages. We do not follow your opinions, we do not follow my opinions, we follow the broadly shared opinions among the scientific community. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:33, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Against my better judgement, I have read this entire diatribe, and both Sheldrake's education at the University of Cambridge and The Science Delusion are described in the article in extensive detail, so most of the poster's points are bogus. 93.72.49.123 (talk) 16:08, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

@PredaMi try discussing the issues without violating the civility policy. You should edit your post to remove the instances of uncollegiality. Propose edits backed by reliable sources. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 21:23, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

References

1. E.g. "Only this time in a more modern form, a symbolic crucifixion through an attempt at moral murder, which according to the Laws of God is no less punishable than physical murder."

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